Whats up trilogy?

[Billatpro]

Whats up at trilogy? what happened at the open house? did the open house happen? Any news?:confused:

[Tom Kuznicki]

:banana2: :rock: The meet went over great. Jerry and Lidio both were on hand to answer questions along with Steve Babcock. Everyone present was given the chance to ride in Trilogy's Marauder and I don't think anyone was disappointed, as Jerry the wild man shaved the tires with every ride. I also had the pleasure to meet THE SARGE and check out his ride. Like I said, a good time was had by all. I want to personally thank the whole crew at Trilogy for the event, and to thank them for not crashing my Lightning when I let them test drive it.

[Billatpro]

Whats the latest 411 on the blower kit?

[Billatpro]

Thanks Mac for that very insightful report, just for the record, I talked to several people at Roush about unrelated topics as they relate to business (NASCAR collectables) and during my conversations the subject of my MM ownership came up more then once.

Your conclusions ring very plausable as I had been told such a program might well be underway at another "Program development firm" who went un named. I also have personal 411 that Trilogy is in deed what you say they are. It is for this reason I was so eager to hear your 411.

[MI2QWK4U]

Sarge, I am confused....were we at the same meeting? I don't know what you mean by Babcocks silence? He was there to give a history and future of the Marauder program, which he did. What did you want him to say? He isn't selling the supercharger. And a lot of things he CAN'T say since he works for and represents Ford. If you remember he had to qualify his statements and choose words carefully, you and I both know he has obligations. And I don't understand why you believe Trilogy won't be selling the kit? It may be offered to motorsports as an additional outlet for selling it, but Trilogy is the company selling it. And there are a lot more custom pieces to this kit than one. The custom pieces being produced is what they are waiting on. As for the CAD diagrams, they mentioned it there, and I have been told that the initial CAD renderings came right from Ford. Trilogy began designing the supercharger around the motor using and modifying what Ford gave them to begin with. Additionally, Jerry and Lidio mentioned they used as many Ford parts in this application as possible, which only makes sense. You know I respect your opinion, but I couldn't disagree more. I think we got a lot of accurate information and dispelled some wives tales about our cars.
I think others that were there also should give their opinions so the others can get a cross section view. I love the fact that this kit was completely designed on CAD before a bolt was made. I am sorry, but nothing can replace a bracket designed on CAD, as opposed to one that is hand made by eyeballing it as you piece together a kit from scratch. That way is hit or miss at best...several attempts may be made for the perfect fit and clearances. Thats why I prefer the Trilogy setup over the Kenny Brown setup...I have a background in engineering and CAD, a CAD design beats a hand made tinkering design any day. I think they have a good setup, I also think that my car will last longer with it than something else. You know I do my homework, just like with the springs and sterio upgrades...I took my time before picking something out. And I don't think LM is going to be installing blowers any time this century, LM dealers don't know much of anything about the Marauder, let alone know what it takes to install this thing. I couldn't even get anyone from LM dealers to show up, perhaps become more mod friendly towards our warranty. None around here will do gears even. They said at the meeting they are looking for the end of July to have it all together, the custom machined parts, the instructions, packaging, etc. I for one DON'T want them to rush....the more painstaking they are, the better results I will have.
Please don't take this reply the wrong way, I was just a little baffled at your posting and felt the need to voice my thoughts (sorry, but I just finished working 16 hours and am a little froggy!)
Anyone else have a take on this that was there?

[Mark [N4OGL]]

Hi gang,

Well, after a good night's sleep (and finishing the honey-do's around the house), I finally got to read Mac's post. I cannot say that I disagree with anything that Mac pointed out about the experience at Trilogy and his impressions of the car, or the people there. And the hot dogs were pretty good, too.

Seriously, I think the Trilogy execution of the supercharger installation was very nice indeed. I have seen several of the Kenny Brown installations (and will soon own one), from Mac's #1X and 93tealcobras car up to mine (which I will visit with on Monday). I can really see the evolution from some of the 'trial and error' installation bits on Mac's car to the far more finished versions in the later models. KB has done a great job, and offers a very finished package that includes all of the things I'd eventually want done to the car all in one stop. Very nice looking.

I'm also impressed with the Trilogy installation. One thing came out (and was part of our post-visit discussion). Trilogy is using a Ford CAD system, and has access to the Ford design drawings. They could install the prototype supercharger kit in the electronic car before they ever had to commit metal to a milling machine. That shortened their development time significantly, and allowed them to get to Job-1 much faster than KB.

Is this better? Worse? I think neither - there are multiple ways to get to the same solution and I think there's space for both to exist. KB is more a traditional racer's way - build it, see if it works, tear apart the parts that don't and build and test and so forth. KB has an impressive list of satisfied Mustang customers, and a successful race car business, which builds confidence for the future owner - me. I do know that there are some CAD design parts of KB's process, but more than that it assures me when I know he's done this a lot - I'm not the guinea pig. I already was the 'experimental car' for the designer of the very first intercooled 4.5L I-6 Land Cruiser supercharger ever built, and I know what that feel like. Now I would rather be number 2,381 and benefit from the learning curve.

I will point out that there is a flaw in this system that Trilogy's engineer admitted to. The Ford CAD system used by Trilogy as no link to a CAE/CAM system that they need to manufacture a part. So Trilogy has to design and measure on the CAD system, then go to a different system (CAE) to make what is needed by a CAM manufacturer. That less- than-seamless transfer can induce manufacturing errors. And even direct transfer CAD/CAE/CAM designed pieces also require real-world testing after being built, so ultimately it comes down to the same thing. There's no real advantage in either KB's method or Trilogy's. Even in the CAD world, they build prototypes for a reason.

Trilogy chose to pursue the CAD route - also a good solution and one that comes with a lot of Ford support. It stands to reason that Ford is well aware of the vast supercharger market that has sprouted for Mustangs in the past few years, and likely is receptive to the program expanding to include the same engine in another car. That's probably why there is a lot of back door support - selling them cars for a buck, and giving them access to the Ford CAD system. I suspect that Ford views this as seed money to see what else grows in the fertile ground of aftermarket doo-dads.

IMHO, the visual presentation of the Trilogy car is impressive - chromed parts and nice plumbing for the hardware. I suspect Trilogy chose to go the Rootes/Eaton route because KB uses a Vortech solution. To be competitive, but not go head to head, they chose an alternative solution. It's a nice installation, and probably as much a marketing solution than anything else.

So, now there's a Trilogy Eaton and a KB Vortech. When you look at the cars, the KB seems to have wider intakes and a generally smoother pathway for all that compressed air to flow. In selecting an Eaton unit, there were't too many alternatives for Trilogy because of packaging considerations with the Eaton unit, and the air intake on the input side of the supercharger looks a little flattened. I don't know what that does to airflow, and it would be a more interesting comparison to see which pumps air into the motor more efficiently. Either way, both cars pull strong all the way, and you can light up either pair of rears all the way to the rim if you want.

In reflecting on all of this stuff, I have a different conclusion than Mac, although I'd be the first to acknowledge that his thoughts have a lot of merit and are well grounded in the realities of the market. I think that what he opines could certainly happen.

My conclusion comes principally from working with, or in, the car business for several years, from being in a company that's a Tier-1 supplier (and a Tier-2 to others) of OEM parts, or being with a company that supplied design equipment to the car biz, or working with factory sponsored racers through SCCA Pro Racing for 8 years.

Maybe that makes me cynical, but here's my take. I think Ford is nurturing Trilogy to see what happens. I think some of the roadshow yesterday was part of Trilogy's way to demonstrate the interest in the part of the community that's likely to spend the money. Or, putting it another way, showing Ford what could be nurtured.

Jerry told me that more than 60 people signed up for the presentation, but I would guess less than 20 actually appeared (and many <b>said</b> they didn't know about the web page, so it must have come from other advertising). I don't think that boded well for Trilogy - it becomes a marketing dilemma. "Sixty people said they'd buy it, but only twenty forked over the cash." That doesn't seem like a good response to me.

Another thing that happened Saturday was that Trilogy created 20 evangelists for their product. We all say it, rode in it and liked it, and came away all warm and fuzzy after talking to Jerry, to Steve, and the other engineers. We're more likely to talk up this stuff than if we weren't there (and just as I'm doing right now). I'm not a marketer, so I don't know how much this makes a difference in the sales bottom line, but I know if someone asked me I would have two or three sources to tell them about for enhanced performance. Maybe that's the point - Steve did say that the MM was limited for budgetary reasons to word of mouth advertising, and we just put more words into that mouth.

I know Jerry wants to remove as many obstacles in front of the buyer as possible, and that's why he committed to warranting the results if installed by a 'certified' installer. That will enhance buyer confidence where there are not a lot of Trilogy products out in the street to build a street reputation. It also makes the product more expensive, since Trilogy has to factor in a warranty cost reserve for when those complaints actually materialize.

Trilogy may be in a position of "if we build it, they will come," and having to prove that adage. I suspect that Ford would like this to be successful before they bring it in-house. My guess is that this stuff will be available from Trilogy directly for a while, once they get the package together. Maybe for up to a year. Jerry (from Trilogy) stuck stubbornly to his $5K price, and Lidio stuck to his $1.5K installation figure, so that's likely what you'll see. Ford is watching carefully and will eventually either lose interest or adopt the program and get it into the catalog as Mac says. Either way, Ford will only process the orders and pass them to Trilogy to ship to customers - that much I know directly from Jerry, who said it was the content of their offer to Ford.

So my guess is this is sort of a strawman to see if the business is there or the market exists. If Trilogy's people aren't idiots (and nothing we saw would even remotely suggest that's even possible), they are constantly searching for projects for Ford, GM, DCX and others so they can keep the staff busy and stay in business. This would seem to be a wise expenditure to establish a program that provides a constant revenue stream with minimal involvement (for example, once it's all designed, they just outsource the manufacturing and ship what somes in from the manufacturers).

Where that leaves the community is that it now has to express something tangible - it has to buy the product. And the door won't be open very long - I would guess less than a year. If they build it, and we come and buy it, then events likely will unfold as Mac predicts. The market has to show them that their investment is worth it, and Ford's investment in Trilogy is worth extending. If this goes in tough economic times, then it'll probably be a hit.

I was going to call this my $0.02, but after looking at the length I'd say it's about four bucks.

Mark

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by SergntMac

If LM ever, ever thought of offering a parts department/over the counter-dealer certified tech installed supercharger kit that does not violate the factory warranty, this could be it. If FMC has ever ever considered adding a MM specific kit to the Ford Racing catalogue for the weekend wrench after his warranty expires, this could be it.

In a short while, maybe by Xmas, you will be able to buy this kit from your dealer and get it installed by fsactory certified wrenches and keep your warranty, or, order it from Ford Racing and take the same chances you already have.


This wouldn't be the first time Mercury offered an over the counter/dealer installed performance kit. They did it in '55, '56 with the dual quad/cam package for the y-block.
They could easily do it again, and probably should. This sort of thing was hinted on early in the Marauder program, as I remember reading.


Originally posted by SergntMac
This presentation was a well staged introduction that I know occured at least once before in my lifetime...The '57 Chevy.

'57 Chev? Are you sure you don't mean the '57 Ford? Ford's launch of the '57 Ford was large and impressive, as was the car.
Buyers thought so too

[Menace]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts on the Trilogy project.


Did Jerry mention when they can do my car? :P

[MI2QWK4U]

Menace, best I can figure for us is the end of july, they expect the inspection pieces of the machined parts of the kit any time. Once they verify and do some quality control on them, they can begin to build the kits. I wish you could have seen the CAD presentation, it was stellar and led me to believe the Trilogy blower had the fortune of being desingned, tested, and tried in the CAD environment before ever putting a bolt into the proto type car. I will verify that with Jerry this week, I plan on giving him a call to clarify a couple of other things that seem to be floating around here and get the bottom line, dont worry...I will keep you in the loop.

[Billatpro]

Well, I think I see alliance's forming here, I'm not about to take sides but I do have my own opinions on the subject.
I am greatful for all the 411 on the subject, pro or con!

[gonzo50]

I want to give my THANKS to SergntMac, MI2QWK4U, and Mark [N4OGL] for their insights on this project. :bows: I for one am interested in the Eaton Blower and hope it makes it through the developement process and in to production. :D

[TAF]

^^^DITTO, thanks to ALL of you...

Now...did ANY of you boys take a camera??!!

[MI2QWK4U]

Bill, I don't know if i would call it an alliance, rather a preference. I know what I like and after looking into it, have formed my choice. I prefer the setup designed and engineered for my car, based on Ford's CAD data. I think it fits the car like a glove, and as a result is less likely to give me a problem in the long run. I wanted to do things to the car early on...for example, lowering the car by cutting the factory springs. I was told that is not a good idea, and actually could be dangerous. This came from a ford engineer, and Lidio as well... Guess what....a month or two later I now have a set of Eibach springs that were ENGINEERED and designed for my car, and my car alone. See my point? After that lessen, I prefer to wait for a blower that was designed like the Trilogy kit was, not put together on the car like the other was.
I think seeing the CAD presentation pretty much set my choice in stone, pure and simple.

So lets not get off track here on something that basically boils down to ones personal preference and choice....

Let the mods continue!

[MI2QWK4U]

PS.... TAF
Sarge took his digital camera for a lot of pics I believe. He took some detailed pics of my Marauder's lowered look with the Eibach springs for those that were curious.

[TAF]

Thanks...glad to hear it. I'm looking forward to seeing the Trilogy setup and REALLY looking forward to the Eibach "stance".

[Bigdogjim]

It is something? The way the aftermarket has come to our rescue.

Thank you to those who took the ride and posted info for the reat of us to read. For your efforts I thank you, as I am sure the rest do also.

Prehaps by the time we meet in Texas it will all be clear?

The whole Marauder thing just keeps getting better.

I for one am glad I am in on the ground floor.

[WolfeBros]

Guys.......first of all thank you for the very informative and insightful posts and 411. We all benefit from your eyes and opinions. I am very interested in the eaton unit and will continue to follow this closely as it unfolds. I would belly up to the bar now but Menace gets first dibbs....:D

A LM endorsed unit or one manufactured with their name on it can only mean we all win with this.:up:

[Zack]

Both the Sarge and Mark have very well thought out ideas for the future of the trilogy kit, which is awesome! The idea of Ford offering this kit over the counter is enticing but Im not holding my breath. Just like every company that develops something and markets it, they will send a research team into the field to test the feasibility of the idea. Im sure Ford never expected to create the urge to modify the Marauder like the 2 % of us out there. This 2 % give or take is my first point. And out of those 2 %, most will stop at gears and a chip. Secondly, the average buyer is what? 52? Im 24 but I have to tell you, I am mighty impressed with the enthusiasm for speed upgrades from the older crowd. Its kind of refreshing to hang out with an intelligent group rather than a 17 year old driving a stick shift mustang (that he cant shift to save his life) that his daddy bought him. What im saying is the vast majority of the EFI aftermarket tailors to the young crowd. 60 people signed up to attend Trilogy but only 20 showed up! Not a good sign right off the bat. If this was a Mustang demo, 80 out of 60 would have showed up, guaranteed. I love this car and the potential it possesses, but A company in such close -knit workings with Ford will always find something to postpone the release for an undetermined length of time. This is their first adventure into the aftermarket. If I break a bracket supplied in their kit, what parts counter do I go to? Who is going to answer the phone like Dennis or Kenny Brown when I have an important question because im dumb? If I told you I had a supercharger kit that was the exact clone of Kenny Browns for sale that was fabricated in my machine shop and offered it $500.00 less, you certainly would not buy it from me at this moment because I have no reputation. I hope to get across here that I am in favor of Trilogys kit and the unbelievable power gains. When it comes down to it the way this kit will really sell is through the dealerships. Many peolple have showed interest but will not drive 2000 miles to have it installed. Sure many of us can do it ourselves, but if I had the money to have it done and warranteed, I would too. The presentation went well but all of the above questions need to be answered before many will bite. Jerry barnes and Lidio are very smart and organized with their product. During the seminar at Trilogy, I learned a lot of things, but I had the feeling I was in an office building, not a speed shop. I hope this kit takes off in any capacity. Youre getting a good product from Trilogy. We have the power to put them on the map but we all deserve and need reassurance that parts will be available, a list of authorized installers in our area and so on. Lets hope the "If you build it they will come" idea weighs out evenly for both consumer and company here.

[studio460]

SergntMac, MI2QWK4U, and Mark [N4OGL] . . . THANK YOU!!!

Sarge, your post had me salivating . . . MI2QWK4U and Mark [N4OGL], loved your analytical ramblings!

My only question . . . Did any of you seem to notice any discomfort/disappointment in Steve, Jerry or Lidio's demeanor due to the low turnout? As a former marketing manager myself, me and my staff would often sweat bullets at marketing events as we anxiously awaited incoming attendees to highly anticipated/promoted press events. Did any print media reporters attend?

[MarauderMike]

Personally I did not see any reporters at the open house. Which at this stage in the development of the Trilogy kit does not surprise me.
I did not notice any disappointment from Jerry or Steve, they seemed pleased and eager to answer the questions put to them.
We do need to remember that Steve is in a tough spot being a Ford representative as to what he can and cannot say. There were several of us that went up and shaked Steves' hand for bringing back the Marauder and you could tell he seemed overwhelmed by that.
As to the kit, as someone mentioned in an earlier post, it will be a matter of preference for the type Supercharger you want to use. I did not get the opportunity to ride in the Kenny Brown car, but I can't say enough about how impressive the Trilogy car was. It is a very clean installation that does look like a factory job, and I personally always like that.
In either case on the decision you make and whose kit you choose, with the engine in our cars, I don't think anyone will be disappointed.

[darebren]

I enjoyed the presentation. Am waiting for a little test & refine time on the S/C install base before I get one. I'm still worried about the engine durability (not looking for 150k miles, but at least 80kish..), once the S/C has all the kinks worked out (mainly by Lidio, who seemed to be a real pro) I'll definately be in line for one.

I'm hoping for a report out from Trilogy on the answers to alot of the questions we were raising during the meeting. Some of the backward compatability questions for the 2004 spark knock sensors sound like they could help the 2003 models (throw more spark).

I came away thinking I'm not killing my car witht he chip, plugs, stat, and gears, and also think the Torque Converter would be a decent and reliable improvement as well. If I get the S/C I'll not use the 4.10 gears though, no need.

Maybe a little more 411 on any rear end strength improvements as Searge mentioned would help as time goes on.

Overall, it can only get better from here.

On a side note, I could see Ford offering the S/C as a kit, but not supporting the warranty if it is installed. This will be a tough situation as time goes by. Does Ford offer a S/C on any of the mustangs, and still support most of the engine warranty?? I don't know.

[cyclone03]

darebren,
The new Cobra is supercharged.

If the open house was mostly advertised here and 20 of 60 showed up that may not be so bad % wise.Of those 20 I'm sure 10 had checkbook in hand and 5 are thinking about it.
As said above how many people can drive 500,1000,1500 miles on short notice,even a month notice?
The BIGGEST test will come for us in Sept. in Dallas.How many members are on this board?Will 1/3 of them come to Dallas?

Something to think about with the SC kit.The engine packageing of the 4.6DOHC is the same as the new Aviator(I'm talking intake to the left) and all the Ford V8 truck packages.So even though the testin is going on in the Marauder the market for this kit could crossover to the truck line.Also Ford MAY be thinking Baby Lightning sometime in the future.
HUM...............

[Menace]

Originally posted by cyclone03
darebren,
The new Cobra is supercharged.

If the open house was mostly advertised here and 20 of 60 showed up that may not be so bad % wise.Of those 20 I'm sure 10 had checkbook in hand and 5 are thinking about it.
As said above how many people can drive 500,1000,1500 miles on short notice,even a month notice?



I can ! :D

[cyclone03]

Originally posted by Menace
I can ! :D


Did you?:rolleyes:

[Menace]

Originally posted by cyclone03
Did you?:rolleyes:

I did not go to the open house because I would have come home without a supercharger and just wanting one even more. Just waiting on the :up: from Trilogy. When they are ready to drop one in my car I will be there when they open the doors.:P

[Menace]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Ummm...well there is that furniture they have to move around first. Won't take long though, just a few filing cabinets and a conference table in bay 1, and the dyno area carpeting has to come up...

:stupid: When I say they, I am refering to Trilogy/Lidio/ or whoever is going to do the install. I think you are a bit envious now that you have seen the Trilogy car. :P :uzi: :bounce:

[MI2QWK4U]

Got the rear differential cover for $159 if anyone is interested. Hey, $30 bucks is the price of the stud kit. Follow the link below, the part you want is the ninth item down the list....

http://www.poweredbyford.com/FordRacing.html

[Fast4Door]

Originally posted by SergntMac
It was mentioned to me as we we leaving, that Jerry may do another open house again soon. I hope he does, I'll come back, and if he does, y'all need to get there.

I really wanted to attend (not 1000 miles for me, only 15), but I had previous plans I could not back out of. If there's another pitch, I'll be there. I can't say I'll be in the market for the blower, but I'd like to hear what they have to say.

[darebren]

I'm ordering now. I don't think these parts are "snake oil"

[trilogyintl]

Moving this thread to the Trilogy Motorsports forum ... for future questions to be answered, please post there.

Thanks!

[Tom Kuznicki]

This goes to the sarge. It's funny but, the other day you in a stealth kind of way seemed to be dissin the Trilogy idea as some sort of smoke and mirrors. That someone else would be selling the kit and such. When I met you, you seemed to be a decent guy and all psyched up about Jerry's car. This car did everything Jerry claimed it would do. He also had that car running all day long giving rides to anyone that was brave enough to get into it, and it never missed a beat or failed to satisfy everyone that took the ride, and I might say also that his car NEVER stalled out in the parking lot like another Marauder did. Everyone has his or her preferences, whether it be roots type or centrifugal, so, Lets not talk ill of someone else's projects. Can't we all just get along.

[Billatpro]

I don't think the sarge was dissing anything, I think he was relating his "Gut" feel about what was going on. He may be right or he may be wrong but he has a right to express his opinion like the rest of us.