To Chirp or not to chirp.....

[Marauder57]

Maybe it is me.....but my 300B does not chirp the tires from a dead start WOT. Even if I power brake....I am not power breaking to get spin rather...just to feel the shift forward to kind of set the car to pounce......is this a TC control thing? I mean I even turn it off and no dice.....Don't get me wrong....the thing will flat go.....but even my F150 with 225hp in it got a chirp..... :(

[studio460]

'57:

I have a mechanically 100% stock 300B also. When torque-braking (which I've only done on occasion as a test), which I've heard here that it's not good to do as a common practice, I am rarely able to break traction at all, and if I do, it's only for a few inches of tire rotation. IMO, the stock launch w/out torque-braking is, well . . . pretty poor. I don't even try it anymore.

Since I'm looking to smoke the tires on command, I get the feeling here that you'll only get that kind of off-the-line torque with a supercharger. It's been hinted here by those that have chip/plugs/stat/4.10s installed that they can break traction to a degree, but can't really smoke 'em (perhaps, with the cumulative power addition of Dennis' new headers, which I DEFINITELY plan to get!). I personally, would like the option to lay at least a five foot patch every other stoplight. Zero-to-posted-speed-limit-fun is about all the fun I'll allow myself these days with the steep insurance rate penalties risked for ANY movers.

For what it's worth, I'm not installing 4.10s, 'cause I love the launch from 70-100mph with the stock gearing, and I am planning on installing a blower on this car anyway.

[TripleTransAm]

Depending on outside temperature I may or may not break the tires loose on a launch. Some cool nights, I can switch off the T/C and lay waste to the BFGs, and on some other days I can hardly muster a chirp, if at all.

One thing, though... in any circumstances, the car has always been able to light them up by holding the brakes. Mind you, you never hold the brakes down fully to begin with, just enough to have the front wheels hold the car in place... the braking system is always biased towards the front to begin with, due to weight distribution. But even before my break-in was up, I had no trouble lighting them up while holding the brakes. And if I released the brakes after getting the wheels spinning and the engine into the power band, they'd keep spinning for a LONG while.

Chirping from 1st to 2nd: I thought I heard this once but can't confirm it (I'm usually in an urban environment with lots of traffic or with my kid in the back seat, so I don't get a chance to try this often). However, last week my brother was sitting in the back seat when I banged off a beautifully-timed 1-2 manual shift at a hair below the rev limiter, and he swears the rear tires barked hard.

That's my statistical data. FYI, about 5600 miles on the clock.

[BillyGman]

I just put 4.10 gears in my MM, and I'm not satisfied. I'm gonna try the chip, and if that doesn't give me a decent launch off the line, then I'm taking out the 4.10's and putting in 4.56's. That should take care of it. Even w/4.56 gears I'll only be reving at 2700 RPM's at 70MPH while in overdrive. So that's not all that bad.
The bottom line is that these are heavy cars, the cam from the the manufacturer must not allow the motor to make much power down low in the power band, it takes more power to break 18" tires loose than it does 15" ones, and it's a pretty small V8 motor under the hood of these cars anyway. There's no substitute for cubic inches, and let's face it, these cars only have 281 cubes. A 350 under the hood would've been a lot nicer. I drove my Dad's Cadillac, which had a 350, and that thing moved better than the MM's do. But then again, the MM's look better, and they're about $15,000 less than the Caddy. BTW, remember that having 4.10 gears in the rear end of a ride that also sports 18" wheels, is equivelent to having 3.73 gears w/that same car if it had 15" wheels. But more specifically it's the tire diameter I'm speaking of. That's why those big monster trucks have to run 6.50 or 7.17 gears in the rear. The taller the tire, the lower gear(higher numerically) that you'll need for acceleration.
And as far as chirping 2nd gear, as far as I'm concerned, because I've seen guys do that w/their cars w/out shifting manually, then if my car can't do it on it's own w/out me hanging on to the shifter, then I won't even bother . In that case, I'd rather be driving a manual shift car. To me it's like doing a nuetral drop to get the tires to break loose, cuz your car can't do it from a dead punch. It's fake. Or like pouring oil on the pavement to do an oil burnout. Any 4 or 6 cylinder car can do that. My 2 cents....

[Marauder57]

Well at least it is not me.....I have only done the power brake thing maybe 3 times.....But I was hoping....I am going to see Dennis soon anyway....not a complete loss....But I feel better knowing that this is a somewhat common thing.....

[the fat bastid]

i could chirp the tires in my 83 honda but not my mm...i'm not sure what that means..

it had like 65 hp

[BillyGman]

and it probably was a manual shift car too. Right? That's a whole different ballgame. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Your honda also had tires/wheels that were a lot smaller in diameter.

[the fat bastid]

no, its auto...

the tires might be loseing thier tread though...now that i think about it i could do it regulary from an incline so more weight would be on the back allowing the front tires less traction...humm..

well whatever..like the edmunds review, and gman implied, "breaking the tires loose as a sign of power is juvinelle test these days"

[Menace]

These cars are like snails from a dead stop. Its my opinion the only worthwhile solution is a supercharger.

[Marauder57]

Man that is some serious bucks.....to be honest...the engine is cool I would just like a little chirp now and then....maybe I will bring a tape recording of one with me......

Can you believe some doofus in a Taurus SE gunned it on me today......I passed that guy so fast the his paint tore off the car..... :D

[RCSignals]

Your Honda had much smaller wheels and skinnier tires too I'd think

[JamesHecker]

Originally posted by NBC Shooter
'57:




For what it's worth, I'm not installing 4.10s, 'cause I love the launch from 70-100mph with the stock gearing,


You will definatly miss that 70 to 100mph rush if you install the 4:10's.

:(

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by the fat bastid
no, its auto...

the tires might be loseing thier tread though...now that i think about it i could do it regulary from an incline so more weight would be on the back allowing the front tires less traction...humm..

well whatever..like the edmunds review, and gman implied, "breaking the tires loose as a sign of power is juvinelle test these days"

No, I wasn't implying that it's juevenille at all. I'm in my 40's and I love smokin up the tires w/my 73 Vette. But it has the power to do it right. And BTW, I didn't even think about front wheel drive when you were talking about your Honda. Now front wheel drive really is a whole different story. yes, they get better traction in the snow, but on dry pavement during hard acceleration(if you want to call the acceleration that your Honda is capable of "hard") the weight transfers to the back of the car even on level pavement, so the Traction is poor. I raced a guy that I work with who has a Eagle talon that he put a bigger turbo charger on than the one it came with. I had my Vette, and not only did I beat him in the race, but coming off the starting line he sat there spinning while my Vette just took off. He didn't have a chance anyway.

[BillyGman]

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I don't see why you guys are saying that installing 4.10 gears will take away your 70-100MPH acceleration. With 4.10 gears you'll only increase the revs on the highway by 350 RPM's as compared to the 3.55 gears. That's nothing. W/4.10 gears my MM is still only reving at 3000 RPM's at 70MPH, and that's in 3rd gear w/out the overdrive turned on. And keep in mind that the peak HP of these motors occurs at 5750RPM's and even the peak torque doesn't occur until 4300 RPM. So at 70MPH you still have a lot left. And with 18" tires and a .71 overdrive gear I don't think that you would be taking the car off the highway even if you installed 4.88 gears. That was part of my point in my first post in this thread. With 4.10 gears in my MM, I can still reach 110MPH in a heartbeat. And how often are you gonna want more top end than that? You wouldn't even need all that in an all out quarter mile drag race. Even my Vette which does 13.48 in the quarter only has a trap speed of 110MPH.

[gonzo50]

I thought that I was missing something with all the talk of losing the rush at 70 - 100 mph sprints with 4.10 gears with only a 350 rpm difference from 3.55 gears. :confused: I would assume that you'll get there quicker with the 4.10 gears since they are that much closer to the peak HP.

[gja]

Uh,
If you cannot chirp going into second every time, while shifting manually, you are doing something wrong. I can do it EVERY time with the o/d off and slapping it into second. I should point out that if you do not shove the shifter forward at 4500rpm you miss the final part of the torque curve rise. This gives me a nice fat tire-bark whenever I want it. You MUST get the shifter into the second click BEFORE it hits 5000rpm or you miss the last upramp on the powerband. That little bump is enough to make the tires chirp, and loud.

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by gonzo50
I thought that I was missing something with all the talk of losing the rush at 70 - 100 mph sprints with 4.10 gears with only a 350 rpm difference from 3.55 gears. :confused: I would assume that you'll get there quicker with the 4.10 gears since they are that much closer to the peak HP.

Exactly. I agree w/you there. 0-100MPH acceleration should improve w/4.10 gears, unless you're running 13" tires!!!! Now if you want to install 5.13 gears, then sure, you would lose most of your top end. But w/tires that have an 28" diameter like our 18" Marauder tires do, you're not going to sacrifice a whole lot of top end speed by switching to 4.10 gears. And in the 0-100MPH range, you won't be sacrificing anything. In fact you'll be gainning. if you want to go 120+MPH, then stay w/the stock 3.55 gears since it will take you longer to get past that speed w/the 4.10's. But like I previously said, how often are you gonna want to go faster than 120MPH??? That's a death wish for the street im my opinion.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by gja
I should point out that if you do not shove the shifter forward at 4500rpm you miss the final part of the torque curve rise. This gives me a nice fat tire-bark whenever I want it. You MUST get the shifter into the second click BEFORE it hits 5000rpm or you miss the last upramp on the powerband.


Wow. Interesting, very interesting. My wife is staying home with the kid tomorrow (she managed to squeeze a day off between the weekend and our national holiday on Tuesday) so that means I'll be MM'ing it to work solo tomorrow.

So, in the greater interest of the collective knowledge of this group, I will selflessly volunteer to test this claim tomorrow morning on the way to work. I know... I shouldn't be so selfless in sacrificing myself like that... but for this group, I'll make the effort. In fact, I'll be sure to try this over and over and over again, just to make sure we all get clear and impartial experimental data to work with. :coolman:

(when run through the BS-filter, we get this: "YEEHAA, Steve's gonna have a wild ride to work tomorrow morning!! WOOHOO!")
:D

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by Marauder57
Maybe it is me.....but my 300B does not chirp the tires from a dead start WOT.

It's not just you there '57....with a few changes it can happen.

From a dead stop, on a flat surface, right foot on the brake...I just use the same right foot and SLAM the gas pedal as if a big cockroach was sitting there! = mine patches nicely EVERY time. I don't give the tranny a headache by manually shifting, there's no point, the software in the chip makes the shift points precise every time. So what if you don't catch a 2nd gear chirp EVERY time.

Gears and chip to start, t/c and exhaust next.....you'll have your noise maker if rubber is expendable to you :up: :burnout:

[Jeff]

Chirping bad; Rubber still on tires good. :D

[Marauder57]

Hey I don't want to burn the rubber off my tires....but I would like a little chirp now and again.....I am going to see Dennis soon so I will let you know on the chirping issue once done.....

[BillyGman]

burning the rubber off of my tires. Infact I've already purchased two new BFGoodrich G-Force tires in anticipation for that. They're only $85 a piece at www.tirerack.com (I hope that's okay to post that web address. I don't remember seeing anything in the rules against doing so, but please someone let me know if this is not allowed).
Anyway, unless I see some drastic improvement in 0-60 acceleration after I install the chip,plugs, and stat, then I guess I might not be needing those new tires for a long time since I'm not really into power braking my new car. That put's a lot of stress on the entire drivetrain. But how soon I'll need those new tires might also depend on weather or not I decide to replace the 4.10 gears w/456's;)

[TripleTransAm]

gja brought up an interesting technique about early manual upshifting and the tire chirping. I tested this out this morning... damn, that's fun! :D

Now, to begin with, I rarely upshift my automatics manually. The few times I did try it in the Marauder, I'm fairly sure I heard a chirp above the roaring engine. However, with the short-shifting suggested by gja, it's so freaking EASY to get rubber on a 1-2 upshift! On one of my 'tests' this morning, I'd almost swear I didn't even need to be at WOT for it to occur!

The biggest surprise was turning into my work parking lot, accessible via a long-ish sort of alley. Being in the mood for manual shifting, I had just grabbed a 3-2 downshift turning the previous street corner, and approaching the alley I grabbed 1st. Now, with the A/C on and TC off, I hopped into the alley and goosed it. The alley is slightly downhill to begin with, but I tried the manual 1-2 at 4500 anyway. WOW. Damned thing chirped there too! Right on!!!

Car stats: around 5600 miles, totally completely factory stock, 92 octane Esso (Exxon in the US?), tires checked at 33 psi cold this morning, Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic oil in the crankcase (around 2500 miles on the oil).

If the chip firms up the upshifts, it'll be even EASIER (if that's possible) for me to get rubber on the upshift. I'm excited....

[BillyGman]

that's the kid in all of us here I guess......but hey, it's a guy thing.....

[Menace]

Bottom line is, you can get the chip,plugs,stat and gears and you still WILL NOT be able to SMOKE the tires unless you powerbrake it. You will get a small chirp though.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Menace
Bottom line is, you can get the chip,plugs,stat and gears and you still WILL NOT be able to SMOKE the tires unless you powerbrake it. You will get a small chirp though.


Some of you may remember I posted a "tire spin is now a real issue with me" type of post a month or two ago.

I also mentioned recently that some days it boils the tires and some days it just hooks.

On my way home today, all pumped up from the new 4500 1-2 upshift chirp I discovered thanks to "gja", I was at a situation where I was at a complete stop merging onto another busy boulevard. When traffic cleared, I immediately thought "what the heck" and kicked off the TC, and goosed the throttle about 1/2-way to 3/4... I know I was not a WOT.

Result: massive tire spin. Once the engine got into the powerband after the initial traction was lost, it felt like it could go on for a long while. I backed off quickly, since I didn't want to freak out the people behind me.

For reference, it's been really hot the past few days. So it looks like I can break traction fairly easy even on warm days. I can't remember if I had the A/C on or not (and OD on/off shouldn't make a difference with this electronically-controlled transmission, from what I've been reading). Nothing special about the road (ie. no dirt, no bumps, no road paint, totally dry, etc.)

So could I have SMOKED the tires, as you put it? Don't know... felt like I could have kept my foot in it and there might have been some wisps of smoke before the tires grabbed. But they certainly felt like they weren't going to grab any time soon!!!

So all I can say is: :bows: this car is impressing me with each passing month.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by BillyGman
that's the kid in all of us here I guess......but hey, it's a guy thing.....


I'm not a speed freak but I'm nuts about acceleration. Not so much the feeling of acceleration, but the SOUND of a healthy V8 as it pushes something big and meaty to 60 mph. And provided it's not in a residential area or somewhere where I may freak someone out on the roads, I really like the sound of a healthy V8 frying the tires on a good launch.

I'm not crazy about burnouts... but a good tire frying launch from a dead stop (like the videos of Mensrea's car launching in the parking lot) really gets me.

That being said, it so SO NICE to hear the howl of the BFGs when they broke loose today. They have a very pleasing sound when they scream for traction.

Yeah, there's a kid in me... but for all the trouble I went to before making up my mind to buy this car, I think I deserve to "enjoy" it every so often! :D

[BillyGman]

I'm similar in some ways. I'm not into a lot of top end speed either. As soon as I get to 110MPH I'm looking at the speedo and thinking to myself "Uh, it's time to tell Mr. Foot to let off the accelerator pedal". And besides, every race that I've ever got into w/any car that I was driving on the street was always won or lost by the time I hit 90MPH. So I don't see any point in going much past 110MPH. And IMO after you get to 120, it becomes a reckless death wish unless you're on a race track. It's impossible to predict what other drivers will do when you're moving that fast because they don't even see or hear you coming until you're either right on top them or you're already by them. So what if one of them pulls out in front of you? You're done. Game over(for good). But I am into the acceleration, as well as doing smoke shows. I'm a show off, and I Luv to smell those tires burning. There's nothing like hearing a healthy V8 motor reving at 5000 or 6000RPM's while you're only moving at 10MPH while smoke engulfs your car. What can I say. It's a spectacle of power, and I Luv creating it, as well as watching someone else engage in it w/their V8 cars.

[scareme]

Just curious, TTA, you said you down shifted manually, i thought that with an automatic, that is harmful to the tranny. If not looks like something new to try out.

[Smokie]

Marauder 57: About the chirp, my car stock would not burn rubber even if I doused the rears with gasoline and set them on fire. I don't like power braking ( I'm a child of the sixties when cars did not need the use of the brake to burn rubber) so anyway for what is worth Dennis programmed the car, Densos and stat. STOCK GEARS and in drive WOT the car will ALWAYS loose traction to some degree; the amount of noise and duration depends on the pavement, so there is no misunderstanding there are NO SMOKE FILL half a block burnouts. You WILL get more than a CHIRP.:beer: :beer:

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by scareme
Just curious, TTA, you said you down shifted manually, i thought that with an automatic, that is harmful to the tranny. If not looks like something new to try out.


I recently read the tccoa article on the Ford auto tranny and there was a mention about how it wasn't as bad to perform manual upshifts with models after a certain year. However, Dennis mentioned something to the contrary a few weeks ago. I'm not sure whether I misinterpreted something so I'll have to reread the article once I get home (leaving for home in 12 hours - currently sitting at the Stockholm airport with wife and child upstairs in the hotel room).

In the old days where pedal position was communicated to the tranny using a cable from the carb/throttle body or by using a vacuum signal, I'd definitely say manual shifting was not a good idea to perform often. High line pressures that are necessary for reducing slippage during shifts would only be available at high RPM/throttle openings. However, with today's electronic trannies, you really need feedback from someone who knows the shift schedules and behavior in order to be able to claim it's safe or not.

One thing for sure... there is a definite difference in shift harshness when upshifting manually at 4500 or at 6000. I'm guessing that the 4500 upshift is not tainted with the same torque management that occurs at 6000, and hence the driveline shock will break the tires loose.