Pulled The Trigger On The Snow Tire Issue Today!

[WJSOLOMON]

After contuinally running into Brick Walls in my Search for a Studable Winter Tire, or someting similiar to the Blizzak, "Green Diamonds" from Iceland, or Nokian HAKKAPELITTA 1's from Norway, I finally gave up, caved in and Ordered a Set of Four 235/50hp-18 DUNLOP SP Winter Sport M2 Tires, and had my Dealer Order an additional Set of Four Front Wheels. The Tire Rack's Delivered Price to my Servicing Dealer was $910.23, more than $370.00 Less than a Local Indy TIre Dealer. The OEM Wheels set me back $1,443.80 out the door, so I'll have $2,353.80 in the Set of Four Desginated Winter Wheels / Tires, or $2,400.00 Mounted and on the Car.

As some of us are soon finding out, $2,500.00 worth of Body Work is pretty easy to come by, so the same Investment in Severe Winter Tires to give me some "reasonable" traction in Rain and Snow (although on ICE, I'll have to drive like I had a Fresh Egg between my Foot and the Accelerator! :eek:), seems to me to be a "reasonable" situation.

My Parts Manager suggested that I use Bags of Sand in the Trunk this Winter, rather than Salt. He reasoned from previous experience, that the Bags of Salt (Water Softner) tend to sweat and leave a White Discoloration on the carpets in the trunk, as a reminder that the Salts are in the process of rusting away the back end of your car! :eek: :eek:

Wish there would have been a way to outfit the car with 16" or 17" Studded Tires, or all of the Other "Allmost As Good As Studded Tires" available out there, but I was advised that my Brakes limited me to the 18 " Wheel Size, and thereby limits us to very few 18" Tire Options.

I'm just glad that I could use the same Tire Size on all Four of my OEM (Front) Wheels! :) :) :)

[MAD-3R]

Damn...
I think I will be having my Wifes car if we have any real weather out here.... I can't afford that much. :eek:

[03 Merc]

WJ,

Man you make me glad I don't live up North any more!!!:D

BTW Kitty litter is much better for traction than sand and more managable....and you can get it about anywhere.... I learned that trick from the Montana HP when I took drivers ed in school... in January... It served me well until I escaped to the Sun Belt.... I still carry 10lbs of it when we go to Gatlinburg, TN in the winter...

[MAD-3R]

Carefull with Kitty Litter. Most of it is Clay, and well, What happens to clay when it gets wet? :) Hope you get out of the situation before it turns to clay mud.

[mtnh]

Hi,

does someone have any Grand Marquis / Crown Vic wheels in the 16" size available to try on a MM? That was going to be my plan, to get 4 16" steel wheels and mount some _60 or _65 series snows on them. BS on the factory wheels for snow tires, as well as 18" snow tires, which, along with 17" snows, are way past affordable for us mortals. I had Firestone Winterfires in 215-60 TR16 (studdable, but I didn't want them) mounted on 16" Lincoln LS wheels last year (my first LS winter) for $75 each. They were most excellent tires last winter, and don't have the one season tire compound, either, like the Blizzaks are known for having. I kept my LS sideways for as much time as I could whenever it snowed out, just to keep abreast of how the car handles, what are its limits, etc. Had a ball with it! You just don't want to go too wide with any snow tires, either, as they do nothing for you unless they can penetrate to the road surface, and tires that are too wide for the weight of the car could never get down to there to help you when you need help. My LS uses 235-50-17s and there was not that much that the 215 sized tires left me wanting for in that time of year.

Bottom line: If I can get away with standard 16" steel wheels, I will be running them for the winters. Along with the $24 wheel covers they sell at the Tire Rack (for a set of 4)...

Mike

[WJSOLOMON]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 03 Merc: "WJ - Man you make me glad I don't live up North any more!!! BTW Kitty litter is much better for traction than sand and more managable....and you can get it about anywhere.... I learned that trick from the Montana HP when I took drivers ed in school... in January... It served me well until I escaped to the Sun Belt.... I still carry 10lbs of it when we go to Gatlinburg, TN in the Winter..."

The Kitty Liitter is a good idea to throw under the Rear Wheels in a Tight Spot, but I was intending to carry the Bags of Sand in the Trunk right next to the (Full) Fuel Tank, to try and add some weight over the Rear Axle, to try and improve Traction on Ice / Snow.

Perhaps the smart thing is to throw a few bags of Kitty Litter on Top of the Bags of Sand.

Couldn't Hurt!

[WJSOLOMON]

Originally posted by mtnh: Hi, does someone have any Grand Marquis / Crown Vic wheels in the 16" size available to try on a MM? That was going to be my plan, to get 4 16" steel wheels and mount some _60 or _65 series snows on them. BS on the factory wheels for snow tires, as well as 18" snow tires, which, along with 17" snows, are way past affordable for us mortals. I had Firestone Winterfires in 215-60 TR16 (studdable, but I didn't want them) mounted on 16" Lincoln LS wheels last year (my first LS winter) for $75 each. They were most excellent tires last winter, and don't have the one season tire compound, either, like the Blizzaks are known for having. I kept my LS sideways for as much time as I could whenever it snowed out, just to keep abreast of how the car handles, what are its limits, etc. Had a ball with it! You just don't want to go too wide with any snow tires, either, as they do nothing for you unless they can penetrate to the road surface, and tires that are too wide for the weight of the car could never get down to there to help you when you need help. My LS uses 235-50-17s and there was not that much that the 215 sized tires left me wanting for in that time of year. Bottom line: If I can get away with standard 16" steel wheels, I will be running them for the winters. Along with the $24 wheel covers they sell at the Tire Rack (for a set of 4)... Mike"

Mike - I'm on the Same Page with you dude! I just hope that I haven't been given incorrect or misleading Advice from both The Tire Rack, Tires.com, and my Selling / Servicing Dealer, that the OEM Brake System on the MM requires us to stay with 8" x 18" Wheels.

For a few bucks more, I'm goin' to be "Styling & Profiling" this Winter in my 5-Spoke,Highly-Polished, Chrome, Clear-Coated OEM Wheels, with the DUNLOP SP Winter Sport 2's on....................as well as sliding my rear end all over the place.

Just hope that I can make it up my curved (8% Grade) Driveway and INTO the garage during the Snow, and not THROUGH the Garage, and into the Dining Room, at 50 MPH!

The wife seems to take a dim view of my knocking over the Dining Room Chairs, when I open the doors and try to climb out.............



:eek: :eek: ;) :cool:

[03 Merc]

Originally posted by WJSOLOMON

Mike - I'm on the Same Page with you dude! I just hope that I haven't been given incorrect or misleading Advice from both The Tire Rack, Tires.com, and my Selling / Servicing Dealer, that the OEM Brake System on the MM requires us to stay with 8" x 18" Wheels.

WJ,

The only question I have about having to stay with 18 inch rims because of the brake system is what is the issue?

After I went thru my parking brake problem I found out , from the parts manager, the rear rotors on our cars are the same as on the Navigator which uses 17 inch rims and has plenty of clearance within the wheel...

[GarageMahal]

Keep the info coming. I am planning to acquire a set of winter tires soon and appreciate all of the information here.

I really hope the 18" limit is not true. I was planning on some taller tires on 16" rims myself. I like having the extra rubber when I run over that snow covered curb. Dented rims are no fun.

jta

[WJSOLOMON]

Orginally posted by 03 Merc: "WJ - The only question I have about having to stay with 18 inch rims because of the brake system is what is the issue? After I went thru my parking brake problem I found out , from the parts manager, the rear rotors on our cars are the same as on the Navigator which uses 17 inch rims and has plenty of clearance within the wheel..."

3M - I think that it's the Front Caliper Size that prevents us from outfitting our sleds with all of the great 16" & 17" Dedicated Winter Tires available out there on the Market. Here's the E-Mail that I recieved today from Doug (800-428-8355) with THE TIRE RACK:

"At this time there are No Approved Snow Packages for the '03 Marauder. Due to the Non-Standard Brake Calipers, the Packages that we show for the GM / CV do not fit. Also, Blizzacks are Studless Tires. They had Quicker Acceleratioon, Shorter Braking Distances, and hold curves at Higher Speeds than Studded Tires. All of this data was on pure ice. You don't want Studs on this Car. We hope to have applications for this Vehicle in the near future. Please check with us periodically for updates."

:eek: :confused: ;) :cool:

[Brian]

Front rotors and calipers on 2003 MM are the same front rotors and calipers found on all on 2003 Grand Marquis and Crown Victoria. (Friction material is different for CV Police Car, but other than friction material the brakes hardware at the front wheels are the same.) Rear rotors are SLIGHTLY different, varying ONLY in several mm of offset of the hat section than the GM/CV rear rotors. No difference in the radial dimension. Rear rotors for MM are actually the same as those on a 2003 Town Car.

Marauder DOES have unique ABS software. Not sure at this time what the ramifications are of changing tire sizes on the proper function of the ABS.

[03 Merc]

Well the easy way to solve this is go to your dealer have them pull a wheel / tire off a GM and see if its fits.. They should be able to visually check interface issues real easily while on the rack...

As far as the ABS if you keep the tire diameter the same it should not matter, in theory:rolleyes: anyway....

If Brain is correct on the fronts and my Parts Manager was correct on the rears they should fit...if not another wheel with a different offset should... The dealer should glad to do it to get the answer and sell some CV/GM rims and tires....

[WJSOLOMON]

Originally posted by 03 Merc: "Well the easy way to solve this is go to your dealer have them pull a wheel / tire off a GM and see if its fits.. They should be able to visually check interface issues real easily while on the rack...As far as the ABS if you keep the tire diameter the same it should not matter, in theory:rolleyes: anyway..If Brain is correct on the fronts and my Parts Manager was correct on the rears they should fit...if not another wheel with a different offset should... The dealer should glad to do it to get the answer and sell some CV/GM rims and tires..."

OK - I hear what you guys are saying, but my Dealer took the position that they didn't Think (?) that the 16"'s or 17's would work, and I couldn't get anyone from the Major Internet Tire / Wheel Distributors to take the bait, or my money, and sell me a Set.

"Mr. Obvious......if The Tire Rack / Tires.com, etc. won't write an Order for more than $2,000.00 for a Set of Four Dedecated Severe Winter (Mounted) Tires, to a potential Market of 18,000 MM Owners, half of which probably have to drive through Winter Weather in this Country, why are some of us still trying to go down this 'trail'"?

:confused: :confused: :( :D :cool:

[Jim]

I'm thinking that the standard wheels for a GM/CV/TC would fit the car.. Of course, what fun is that, really..

Perhaps a set of these (http://www.karkraft.com/wheels.htm) @ 700 or 800 bucks would do the trick for wheels? You're looking for the 18" Roush wheels about halfway down the page.

Of course, You'd still need those pricey 18" snow tires, but it's cheaper than OEM wheels, and probably pretty jazzy to look at...

-Jim

[WJSOLOMON]

Originally posted by Jim: "I'm thinking that the standard wheels for a GM/CV/TC would fit the car.. Of course, what fun is that, really..
Perhaps a set of these (http://www.karkraft.com/wheels.htm) @ 700 or 800 bucks would do the trick for wheels? You're looking for the 18" Roush wheels about halfway down the page.
Of course, You'd still need those pricey 18" snow tires, but it's cheaper than OEM wheels, and probably pretty jazzy to look at...Jim"

Jim - Excellant Point! They're not hard to look at either, as well as costing more than 40% Less than the OEM Chromes!

PLUS...........I'd have gotten another Free Base Ball Cap!

:p ;) :cool:

[mtnh]

Once again, "Brian" saves the day! Thanks, Brian! Guys like you make my day.

The trick now is to buy a snow tire package that keeps the ABS code happy, and that would be to find the revs per mile of the front and rear OEM tires, and then buy snow tires that work with that ratio of difference in rolling diameter. Unfortunately, The Tire Rack has NA in the tables for our rear tires, so I would guess that manual measurement of the stock tires would be needed to find the revs per mile so that snow tires could be found with the front and rear ranges in mind.

To me, going from an 18" rim to a 16" rim should work, visually judging, as there appears to be plenty of clearance from the calipers to the wheel. If you want to see a much closer clearance issue, take my Lincoln LS, with stock 17" wheels. The apparent cleareance between the inside of the rim and the caliper would say "no way" for 16" wheels to fit, but they do. The clearance in these factory Marauder wheels to the calipers is not even close, so Brian's message pretty much clears it for me.

Thanks again, Brian.

Mike

[WJSOLOMON]

Originally posted by mtnh:"Once again, "Brian" saves the day! Thanks, Brian! Guys like you make my day. The trick now is to buy a snow tire package that keeps the ABS code happy, and that would be to find the revs per mile of the front and rear OEM tires, and then buy snow tires that work with that ratio of difference in rolling diameter. Unfortunately, The Tire Rack has NA in the tables for our rear tires, so I would guess that manual measurement of the stock tires would be needed to find the revs per mile so that snow tires could be found with the front and rear ranges in mind. To me, going from an 18" rim to a 16" rim should work, visually judging, as there appears to be plenty of clearance from the calipers to the wheel. If you want to see a much closer clearance issue, take my Lincoln LS, with stock 17" wheels. The apparent cleareance between the inside of the rim and the caliper would say "no way" for 16" wheels to fit, but they do. The clearance in these factory Marauder wheels to the calipers is not even close, so Brian's message pretty much clears it for me. Thanks again, Brian.... Mike"

Mike, Brian, & et al - I'll be the first one to agree that the "Experts" at these Internet Sales Agencies do not always check "alternate routes" to get us where we want to go, particularly with these Tire / Wheel / Caliper issues with our MM. I've pulled the trigger on the set of DUNLOP SP Winter Sport 2 Tires and OEM Front Wheels, only because I could not get the "Blessing" of anyone that appeared capable of making an Informed and Intelligent decision.

I know full well the inheirent limitaions of these DUNLOPS, as I installed a set of Four on my Lexus SC 430 (Also Rear Wheel Drive) last Winter, and while it performed beautifully at Speeds in excess of 100 MPH, stayed glued to the Highway in Heavy Rains, tracked through Wet Snow like the ads promised, it also slid down the driveway after a half inch of snow followed up an outside wash last December, and I had Great Difficulty getting it back into the Garage!

Cutting to the chase - if American tenacity and inovative thinking of other MM Owners can provide the rest of us a clear new path to follow that would enable us to utilize the much better Dedicated Severe Winter Wheel / Tire Options available in a 16" and 17" Size, I'll be the first to follow.

Who wants to bite the bullet, and be the first one to demonstrate that we MM Owners are just as intelligent as our Dealers' Parts / Service Personell, and the "Experts" at the Internet Tire Stores?

:) ;) :cool:

[FFracer]

I run an auto repair shop that restores Vics for police depts (see www.jimlocke.com) I also own an 03MM Soo tommorow I will throw some 98 Vic 16's onb the MM and post back,. Jim Locke

[WJSOLOMON]

Originally posted by FFracer: "I run an auto repair shop that restores Vics for police depts (see www.jimlocke.com) I also own an 03MM Soo tommorow I will throw some 98 Vic 16's onb the MM and post back.....Jim Locke"


Jim - I'd like to be the First to Salute You, for your initiative to resolve these "Unnusual Caliper" notions on the Part of the internet Tire / Wheel Marketeers!

You're the Man, with the Plan!

:) ;) :cool:

[FFracer]

Sorry guys I got busy I'll get it done today! We had an AC-Delco battery clinic at the shop OOPS sorry I swore Just for the trivia tho anyone know where the brand name AC-Delco originated. Answer later!

[WJSOLOMON]

Originally posted by FFracer:'Sorry guys I got busy. I'll get it done today! We had an AC-Delco battery clinic at the Shop. Just for the trivia tho anyone know where the brand name AC-Delco originated. Answer later!"

Jim - it just occurred to me, is your Forum Name a "Two-Part Statement", or is that what's on your Personalized Plate?

:eek: :confused: :p ;) :cool:

[FFracer]

Hey guys, I got a chance last nite and the answer is they do NOT rub anything, caliper, backing plate nuthin! I then drove it around and no ABS lite or false activation. I will post the diameters that I had on the car but they are 16" 98 Vic Police wheels with P225/60R16's. I wonder what the car will look like with the small dog dish centers on.

[WJSOLOMON]

Originally posted by FFracer: "Hey guys, I got a chance last nite and the answer is - they do NOT rub anything, caliper, backing plate, nuthin! I then drove it around and no ABS lite or false activation. I will post the diameters that I had on the car but they are 16" 98 Vic Police wheels with P225/60R16's. I wonder what the car will look like with the small dog dish centers on."

Jim - It's Amazing that all of those Internet Tire Store Geeks haven't wakened up to this information, let alone our own Mercury Parts Department peolple!

Looks like I'm the first one to say that I may well have "F _ _ _ _ D UP!

:( :confused: :cool:

[FFracer]

Now there is one thing to know tho that is that the up to 03's have a roughly 4 3/8 backspace to the wheel and the 03's have a 6 5/8 backspace meaning that the 02 wheels stick out ( wider track ) 2 inches farther than the stock 03's. Are they gonna throw crap on the side of the car? Mudguards ugh. Car looks great with them wide!! They don't touch tho. I do race Formula Fords in SCCA and did drive it PLENTY hard enough to have touched if they were going to. If anyone wants pics e-mail me for them. Very very Fed looking. I'm sure they won't want to sell you these because of liability. As a side note. I have a fairly hi-volume shop and I can tell you that this is a problem on all cars w/ alum rims. The MM is no exception. Pull your wheels off and lube w/hi-temp grease the hubs or one day your going to have to sledgehammer your 18's off.:eek: :mad:

[Brian]

Echoing what FFracer mentioned about the "backspace" of the wheel...

The 2003 suspension re-design resulted in a fairly significant re-design of wheel offset. A quick browse of MVMA specifications for Grand Marquis from 2002 back into the late 1980s shows wheel offsets between 2.4mm and 11mm, depending on the wheel. Steel wheel is typically 11mm. Al wheels for GM in that timeframe are typically between 2.4mm and 8mm. Offset being defined as the lateral distance from the centerline of the wheel to the mounting flange surface, with a postiive number meaning the flange is outboard of the centerline of the wheel. These relatively small offsets result in the "deep dish" appearance of the earlier CV/GM wheels.

The 2003 MM wheel offset is 50MM.
All 2003 CV/GM wheel (steel and AL) are 54mm.
Significantly less "deep dish", more towards "flush face" appearance.

Taking an average pre-2003 CV/GM AL wheel offset at approximately 5mm, the difference to a MM offset is 50 - 5 = 45mm --> about 1-3/4 inches off of the OEM MM offset! That is how much the tire tread center will be off if you bolt a pre-2003 CV/GM wheel on your 2003 MM. In my view, that could be a pretty significant change, relative to clearances to fender well lips, handling parameters (scrub radius changes for the front wheels - affects steering, returnability, ...), stone pecking of body paint, etc.

I would think that one would want to keep the offset as close to the OEM wheel as you can for a variety of reasons.

[FFracer]

Agreed Brian I've decided to buy CV03 steel wheels for $92 each and some Blizzaks.

[MarauderBoy]

Where did you pick up the steel wheels?

[FFracer]

Local Ford dealer Kenny Ross Irwin Pa

[bozobill]

What size Blizzaks?

[MarauderBoy]

FFracer,

I always seem to have more luck with the parts counter help when I bring them a part number. Any chance you have one for the steelies?