Gas jumped 40 Cents since this morning!!!

[KillJoy]

6AM - 87 Octane = $3.09

5PM - 87 Octane = $3.49

WTF!!!! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN!!!

I hate these GD Gas Companies!!!! What do they care what they charge...it's not like money matters to them..... $300 Billion PROFIT my ass!

:mad:

KillJoy

[offroadkarter]

Really, it went down 15 cents here :D


Better get a tornado, those work wonders.....

[Pops]

Dont whine as it went to 3.65 here. It was 3.02 this morning.

[rayjay]

and for absolutely no valid reason other than "they" can get away with it.:mad2:

[Marauderjack]

Adjusted for inflation regular gasoline should be about $3.50 a gallon!!:cool:

It stinks when it has always been so cheap and the oil companies are now posting RECORD profits!!!:mad2:

Somewhere along the way we WILL need new refineries and I hope the money grubbing scum bags put some of their new found wealth to work!!:argue:

BTW....a month ago my fuel bill was over $800......It sux but it's a DAMN SITE BETTER than the shortages and lines we suffered with in the 70's!!!:rolleyes:

Marauderjack:(

[BLACKMARAUDER04]

Premium In Southern Cal Is 3.49-3.57 At Most Stations I Goto.
The More Expensice Ones Are .10-.20 More

[Leadfoot281]

It high for Toyota Prius drivers too. Everything thing else being equal, I'd much rather be driving my Marauder.

[MADRODER]

3.50 a gallon....what a deal. Paying over 4.40 for 91 here in Niagara

[MarauderTJA]

They can do what they want and there is "nothing" we can do about it:mad:. Period. After all, the CEO's need their 3 Million Dollar perks each quarter. We are probably lucky we have gasoline at all. Any excuse they can make, count on the price to be over $4.00 a gallon by summer. One hurricane and it will be there.

[sabtaj1]

Its becouse everyone got gas on the 15th this month. LOL

[alarmguy]

Just in time for our holiday weekend trip to North Carolina!

[Mad4Macs]

It's not just Big Oil. Wall Street is just as (if not more so) guilty.

[larryo340]

3.50 a gallon....what a deal. Paying over 4.40 for 91 here in Niagara
Canadian or US $ ??

[Mad4Macs]

Another thing that rattles me;
The current group in Congress flat out said "If you vote for us, we're gonna go after Big Oil".
Translation;
"We know that any punishment we dole out to corporate America is passed on to the public, be we believe the public is too stupid to follow along... and oh... we Really Really Hate Bush".
America said "OK", so as far as I'm concerned, we got EXACLTY what the new leadership promised us, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Does anyone really think that oil co's aren't preparing themselves for what the current Gov't clearly stated that they want to do?
Shucks, we ain't seen nuthin' yet!
:lol:

[Bluerauder]

6AM - 87 Octane = $3.09

5PM - 87 Octane = $3.49

WTF!!!! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN!!! mad:

KillJoy
The price of crude oil is $66.00 per barrel. That equates to a price of $2.98 per gallon (87 Regular). That price includes marketing, manufacturing, cost of the oil, refining, R&D, Fed-State-Local taxes, and profit. I wonder where that other 51 cents is going. Nevermind, I know. Gas and Oil pricing is a joke and everyone knows it. Only one course of action left ---- BOHICA.

I am not driving my Marauder any more ......... I ain't driving it any less either. :rofl:

[offroadkarter]

They can do what they want and there is "nothing" we can do about it:mad:. Period. After all, the CEO's need their 3 Million Dollar perks each quarter. We are probably lucky we have gasoline at all. Any excuse they can make, count on the price to be over $4.00 a gallon by summer. One hurricane and it will be there.


Eventually itl go to where we cant afford it, and they will HAVE TO lower it, thats when its at 10 bucks a gallon :puke:


Its the chinese! They suck it down like water everyday! Thats why gas is up so hi

Doesnt someone on here have a "black bomber" :D Haggis perhaps? He can solve this issue.


Who wants to start a war with china, steal oil from iraq, and get cheap gas!

[MENINBLK]

You guys need a reality check.

Oil companies aren't making Millions,
they are making BILLIONS !!!!

The top oil producing company made over a $9 BILLION PROFIT just last month !!!

[larryo340]

I could not even imagine figures that high, although I would love to try.
These CEO's are clueless to what money really is. They should be forced to live like us for a while
http://t1.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1167749486004&id=4794d483e26a0190db4b428ac1c 00cc3

[Rider90]

6AM - 87 Octane = $3.09

5PM - 87 Octane = $3.49
Lucky!! I think ours only increased 30 cents :mad2: When will it be $10.00 a gallon? I want to be the only supercharged Marauder on the road!

[Motorhead350]

I want to be the only supercharged Marauder on the road!

That won't be the case for much longer, I'm almost there. As far as gas companies go I think the person who designed the pump was a joker because I literally see myself/car getting screwed everytime I fill up and just take it. :flamer:

[BAD MERC]

I have parked my Marauder in the cozy, carpeted garage and now drive my 2006 Taurus V6 everyday. It will remain there for awhile until fuel stabilizes a little. I will still take it to shows and cruise-ins. So far I am thinking about using the Taurus for the everyday car and the Marauder on collector-car insurance only with stated value and limited use.

[Todd]

What alot of people seem to forget is that the oil companies 'profit margins' have stayed the same. Which means, they make the same percentage on every gallon of gas they sell as they did a few years ago.

However, at a higher sales price, the same percentage brings higher profits amount (but keep in mind, same percentage).


The kicker is that even with the higher prices, we all keep buying it like we did before or in some cases even consume MORE....!!!!!!



So DONT let 'record profits' work you up in a tizzy......




Additionally, remember that the federal gov'ment takes what, $.60 or $.70 cents for every gallon sold. And they didnt do ****it to earn it. If they dropped their percentages a little it would help all Americans.




And in the end, we havent built a single refinery in what, 20 or 30 years. What else do you expect to happen.... Lower supply ALWAYS equals higher cost. If the gov-ment let them build more refineries you would see the price drop for sure. Not to mention harvesting oil from our own sources including oil shale, sands, and oil fields in AK and FL.

[larryo340]

I have parked my Marauder in the cozy, carpeted garage and now drive my 2006 Taurus V6 everyday. It will remain there for awhile until fuel stabilizes a little. I will still take it to shows and cruise-ins. So far I am thinking about using the Taurus for the everyday car and the Marauder on collector-car insurance only with stated value and limited use.
Not a bad idea, it'll make you appricieate the Marauder even more.

[BAD MERC]

Everyday that I have to drive through the sea of ho-hum cookie-cutter FWD pieces of crap that people are forced to buy it makes me appreciate my Marauder even more. Especially since I bought it with 13K miles on it for what a generic POS costs new.
Not a bad idea, it'll make you appricieate the Marauder even more.

[sdacbob]

What alot of people seem to forget is that the oil companies 'profit margins' have stayed the same. Which means, they make the same percentage on every gallon of gas they sell as they did a few years ago.

However, at a higher sales price, the same percentage brings higher profits amount (but keep in mind, same percentage).


The kicker is that even with the higher prices, we all keep buying it like we did before or in some cases even consume MORE....!!!!!!



So DONT let 'record profits' work you up in a tizzy......




Additionally, remember that the federal gov'ment takes what, $.60 or $.70 cents for every gallon sold. And they didnt do ****it to earn it. If they dropped their percentages a little it would help all Americans.




And in the end, we havent built a single refinery in what, 20 or 30 years. What else do you expect to happen.... Lower supply ALWAYS equals higher cost. If the gov-ment let them build more refineries you would see the price drop for sure. Not to mention harvesting oil from our own sources including oil shale, sands, and oil fields in AK and FL.


Actually the federal tax is $.48 per gallon and hasn't gone up in something like 15 years. Every new refinery built is bought out by Big Oil and shut down. Why should they build more refineries, they can keep the supply just where it is and charge what they want and blame it on supply and demand and refinery problems like they always do. Ever since Katrina when they realized people would pay more its stayed way up there and now going even higher. NOBODY could convince me that price fixing and gouging are not going on and perpetrated by Big Oil and allowed to happen by politicians.

[baltimoremm]

It took a long time for the world to get to the point where we have become so utterly dependent on oil that we will pay virtually anything for it.
I've come to accept the fact that the oil companies have us by the short and curlies and are now just starting to really take advantage of it. I'd rather cut down on bathing and eating than cutting down on driving the marauder.

[SC Cheesehead]

What alot of people seem to forget is that the oil companies 'profit margins' have stayed the same. Which means, they make the same percentage on every gallon of gas they sell as they did a few years ago.

However, at a higher sales price, the same percentage brings higher profits amount (but keep in mind, same percentage).


The kicker is that even with the higher prices, we all keep buying it like we did before or in some cases even consume MORE....!!!!!!



So DONT let 'record profits' work you up in a tizzy......




Additionally, remember that the federal gov'ment takes what, $.60 or $.70 cents for every gallon sold. And they didnt do ****it to earn it. If they dropped their percentages a little it would help all Americans.




And in the end, we havent built a single refinery in what, 20 or 30 years. What else do you expect to happen.... Lower supply ALWAYS equals higher cost. If the gov-ment let them build more refineries you would see the price drop for sure. Not to mention harvesting oil from our own sources including oil shale, sands, and oil fields in AK and FL.


^^^^ +1^^^^

I'm not a big fan of high gas prices either, but "Big Oil" is hardly making out like a bandit, margins for refineries have remained fairly flat for years and are typically less than 10% whereas the margins for industry in general are around 12%.

"Every new refinery built is bought out by Big Oil and shut down."

Gimme a break. "Big Oil" has been screaming for years that they need additional refining capacity, but are faced with enormous environmental and governmental hurdles to do so. There hasn't been a new refinery built in the US since 1976.

Check out the following if you're interested:
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn42472.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6019739/

Also, you want cheaper gas? Find a cheaper source of oil. Current price for a barrel of oil is around $66. There are 42 gallons to a barrel of oil. $66/42 = $1.57 raw material cost. At $25 a barrel the raw material cost drops to $0.60. Tell your freindly local tree-hugger to go to H&LL and contact your Congressperson to promote legislation to enable additonal domestic oil drilling. Get oil prices down, and you'll see gas prices drop like a rock.

SCCH

[Todd]

Actually the federal tax is $.48 per gallon and hasn't gone up in something like 15 years. Every new refinery built is bought out by Big Oil and shut down. Why should they build more refineries, they can keep the supply just where it is and charge what they want and blame it on supply and demand and refinery problems like they always do. Ever since Katrina when they realized people would pay more its stayed way up there and now going even higher. NOBODY could convince me that price fixing and gouging are not going on and perpetrated by Big Oil and allowed to happen by politicians.


I should amend my original statement to say goverment instead of federal goverment. I live in the state of Florida. They tack on another 10 cents I believe. It may be more than that.

I am not sure your comment about additional refineries being built but then shut down within the last 30 years is true. From what I understand, it has been approximately 30 years since a NEW refinery has been built. There are/were some that were closed for repairs after hurricanes. But none that were built and then shut down within the last 30 years.

[BruteForce]

...contact your Congressperson to promote legislation to enable additonal domestic oil drilling. Get oil prices down, and you'll see gas prices drop like a rock.

SCCH

What makes you think prices would go down with additional domestic drilling? The whole point of ramping up drilling is to take advantage of current pricing. If prices drop, big oil will slow down production to prop it back up. Simple business logic.

[ctrlraven]

It is really starting to get out of hand. About a half of a mile from my shop is 3 gas stations (Exxon, Shell and Hess) their prices are usually always the same as eachother and I go with Hess or Shell (save 6 cents on Tuesdays of 93 lol). But if I drive the other way about a mile down the road, the cost of 93 is 20 cents more!

[SC Cheesehead]

What makes you think prices would go down with additional domestic drilling? The whole point of ramping up drilling is to take advantage of current pricing. If prices drop, big oil will slow down production to prop it back up. Simple business logic.

My point is that oil companies don't make money from high-priced crude, they make it through refining and selling various cuts, be it gasoline, diesel, or feedstock to chemical plants.

The biggest variable in the refining process is the cost of raw material. Distribution costs, cost of refining, and taxes are relatively fixed, so all things being relative, high cost of raw material gets passed along to the consumer resulting in higher gas cost.

More domestic production = greater supply = less demand for higher-priced foreign crude = lower market price.

Lower market price = lower raw material cost.

Lower raw material cost + fixed distribution and refining costs and taxes = lower cost products to the consumer.

Simple business logic.:)

SCCH

[BruteForce]

More domestic production = greater supply = less demand for higher-priced foreign crude = lower market price.

This is the critical flaw in logic. You assume that increased domestic production will result in a lower spot price for crude. Again, they increase production to take advantage of current pricing... not to reduce that pricing. If prices go down due to increased supply (irregardless of its source), they tighten supply to maintain price levels.

I will however accept gracefully any price reductions if I am wrong. :D

[Dr Caleb]

This is the critical flaw in logic. You assume that increased domestic production will result in a lower spot price for crude. Again, they increase production to take advantage of current pricing... not to reduce that pricing. If prices go down due to increased supply (irregardless of its source), they tighten supply to maintain price levels.

I will however accept gracefully any price reductions if I am wrong. :D

Everyone is wrong. :)

Oil companies pay a flat rate in many places, such as Alaska ($12.50/Barrell) or Alberta ($5.00/Barrell) to pull it out of the ground and SELL it at $66.00 a barrell to themselves. Eg: Exxon pulls it from wells in Alaska and sells it to Exxon refineries in California. Transportation, pipeline costs etc. are part of the cost of doing business.

1 Barrell = 194 (~?) litres, the cost per litre at the pump here is $1.21 right now. So, 1 barrell of oil results in $234 in gross revenue.

Around here, the price jumped every second day last week , before our long weekend. $.99 -> $1.06 -> $1.16 -> $1.21.

[Todd]

What makes you think prices would go down with additional domestic drilling? The whole point of ramping up drilling is to take advantage of current pricing. If prices drop, big oil will slow down production to prop it back up. Simple business logic.

Some not so intelligent business owners may think that way. But if they are smart, they will NOT do what you are suggesting.

It has been proven time and time again that a company will achieve greater income with greater volume of sales with lower profit margins/prices than high prices/profit margins with lower total volume of sales.....

What you are insinuating is that the standard school of thought on supply and demand is bunk. I don't think so. You are wrong. Period. At least I hope you are. Because if they did what you say, we are all screwed...

[Todd]

Everyone is wrong. :)

Oil companies pay a flat rate in many places, such as Alaska ($12.50/Barrell) or Alberta ($5.00/Barrell) to pull it out of the ground and SELL it at $66.00 a barrell to themselves. Eg: Exxon pulls it from wells in Alaska and sells it to Exxon refineries in California. Transportation, pipeline costs etc. are part of the cost of doing business.

1 Barrell = 194 (~?) litres, the cost per litre at the pump here is $1.21 right now. So, 1 barrell of oil results in $234 in gross revenue.

Around here, the price jumped every second day last week , before our long weekend. $.99 -> $1.06 -> $1.16 -> $1.21.


I see your point but you are wrong as well. :flamer:

1 barrel of oil does not produce 1 barrel worth of retail gasoline. There are byproducts that are unavoidable.

Not that it means much to this conversation.

I am pissed either way at having to spend this much for gas.

I just hate seeing people put blame in the wrong place.




Just like when people say it is everyones right to have health care insurance...(regardless who pays for it) That is BS as carrying insurance is a gamble. Not a God given/gov'ment given right. But that discussion is more for the off topic forum......

[SC Cheesehead]

This is the critical flaw in logic. You assume that increased domestic production will result in a lower spot price for crude. Again, they increase production to take advantage of current pricing... not to reduce that pricing. If prices go down due to increased supply (irregardless of its source), they tighten supply to maintain price levels.

I will however accept gracefully any price reductions if I am wrong. :D

I maintain that if the US were able to increase its supply of domestic oil and purchase less from foreign markets, the price for a barrel of OPEC oil would drop. If OPEC prices drop, other market suppliers will have to follow suit or risk loss of sales, this is basic economics.

If a refinery can obtain crude oil at a lower price, the cost of refined petroleum products will drop. This doesn't necessarily mean a 1 for 1 adjustment, but if crude oil prices drop, for whatever reason, from $66 a barrel to, say $35 a barrel, the prices at the pump will go down.

Another point, we focus on the price of gasoline, but only about 19.5 gallons of gas are produced from a barrel (42 gal) of crude oil. The balance is production of diesel, jet fuel, petroleum feedstocks, solvents, etc. Right now existing refineries are running at 96% of capacity to meet current demand. Any cutbacks in refinery production would have substantial economic impact above and beyond just increased gas prices at the pump.

If you can refine more oil, you can sell more product.

If you can refine more oil obtained at a cheaper price, you can still make big $ selling a lower-priced product because higher sales volume at a given margin per unit will generate a higher income than lower sales at a higher unit margin (up to a point obviously). I guess what I'm saying is refineries stand to gain a whole lot more by refining large amounts of cheaper crude than they would by throttling back on production if crude price drops just to try and hold a specific market price.

SCCH

[SC Cheesehead]

I am pissed either way at having to spend this much for gas.

I just hate seeing people put blame in the wrong place.
I posted after Todd, basically said the same things he did. My main point is x2 to the above.

SCCH

[BruteForce]

Because if they did what you say, we are all screwed...

I rest my case. :help:

[OneBADLsE]

Actually the federal tax is $.48 per gallon and hasn't gone up in something like 15 years. Every new refinery built is bought out by Big Oil and shut down. Why should they build more refineries, they can keep the supply just where it is and charge what they want and blame it on supply and demand and refinery problems like they always do. Ever since Katrina when they realized people would pay more its stayed way up there and now going even higher. NOBODY could convince me that price fixing and gouging are not going on and perpetrated by Big Oil and allowed to happen by politicians.

I said it once, and i'll say it again. We, the people, allow for higher fuel, as well as higher overall living costs. We are the CONSUMERS. WE, THE PEOPLE, can make that difference.

Dont blame it on big oil. Its only partially their fault (having ZERO consideration for the countrys economic well being, as well as the countrys morale). I do however agree with Larry and the trading places theory. Assuming they could live in our shoes, to feel the pain of supporting a family, a home with oil or gas heating, filling up our pride and joys with fuel on a weekly or daily basis, I believe they would get it. The American "joe" is, and always will be the backbone of our great nation.


I, being a jew, hear a world of people who were brought up to believe and blame Hitler for the concentration camps. I, as a human being of ''jewish'' descent dont blame Hitler...Blame the SAVAGES that carry out the orders!!!! How does this relate to high fuel costs you ask? Do some math, and reason it out.

Just a thought gentlemen....

[Bluerauder]

This has been a very interesting discussion. But nothing that I have read here explains why stations are out changing their price boards within 15 minutes of some event in the world that might just remotely affect the price of crude oil in a couple weeks if ever.

Gas prices change immediately upward even though that new higher price crude oil will be weeks or even months in the pipeline before it ever shows up at your local station. The gas that was $3.50 this afternoon is coming from the same tank that was $3.10 this morning. I just don't get it. I understand supply and demand economics; but this is anticipatory economics. The higher prices charged the consumer before the realization of the increased costs in raw material, refining, and whatever goes directly into someones pocket.

[BLACKMARAUDER04]

Supposedly Here In California They Can Only Change Prices When They Get A New Delivery.

[Todd]

This has been a very interesting discussion. But nothing that I have read here explains why stations are out changing their price boards within 15 minutes of some event in the world that might just remotely affect the price of crude oil in a couple weeks if ever.

Gas prices change immediately upward even though that new higher price crude oil will be weeks or even months in the pipeline before it ever shows up at your local station. The gas that was $3.50 this afternoon is coming from the same tank that was $3.10 this morning. I just don't get it. I understand supply and demand economics; but this is anticipatory economics. The higher prices charged the consumer before the realization of the increased costs in raw material, refining, and whatever goes directly into someones pocket.


I completely understand and agree with you.

That is the way business work. Businesses price items, typically, based on replacement costs. Not original purchase price. Short term the price may stay the same but rest assured that if Jegs hears about an increase in head costs from Edlebrock, they WILL raise their prices even though they may have stock on hand purchased at the lower price.

What will it take to replace that set of heads. Or what will it take to replace that gallon of gas sold.


And with the internet and all other forms of media we have instand access to data. Which means, we have people who react right along side the occurances in the world instead of days or weeks later.

I think it is unfair they raise their price when they paid the lower price. But it is a free country and is their right to do whatever they want.





On a side note......... I am probably going to get some of this wrong but will give it a shot.

There was a gas station in the news not to long ago that offered a discount card to military and senior citizens I believe. That discount card cost some amount of money and the money from these cards went to local youth athletics.

The discount card allowed these carriers to get some amount of money off each gal. of gas. Like 2 cents or something. And over a years time thats alot potentially. Significantly more than the cost of the card which was $5 iirc...

The local government stepped in and said it would sue the gas station owner if they didnt eliminate the discount card program immediately because the prices were to low.....!!!!!


So there are owners that sometimes try to do the right things. But there is always someone there with their hand out complaining.

[Dr Caleb]

I see your point but you are wrong as well. :flamer:

1 barrel of oil does not produce 1 barrel worth of retail gasoline. There are byproducts that are unavoidable.


I do know that. I am right, as I said *gross* revenue, not *net*. ;)

I've worked in or around the oil and gas industry for many years. It really doesn't matter ethier, as they've stopped using the petrolium based lubricants when they 'stick' it to us anyhow.

[larryo340]

I, being a jew, hear a world of people who were brought up to believe and blame Hitler for the concentration camps. I, as a human being of ''jewish'' descent dont blame Hitler...Blame the SAVAGES that carry out the orders!!!! How does this relate to high fuel costs you ask? Do some math, and reason it out.

I know this is :Offtopic:, but I'm jewish too. How can you not blame Hitler, he started it all by brainwashing all his people. All his chiefs shared his beliefs and passed the orders down the line to the lower commanders. If you did not do as they told you, you weren't around long. Either way there were alot of hands doing the deeds to hold accountable.

[Rider90]

I know this is :Offtopic:, but I'm jewish too. How can you not blame Hitler, he started it all by brainwashing all his people. All his chiefs shared his beliefs and passed the orders down the line to the lower commanders. If you did not do as they told you, you weren't around long. Either way there were alot of hands doing the deeds to hold accountable.
Very interesting path this gas prices thread is headed :confused:

[SC Cheesehead]

Very interesting path this gas prices thread is headed :confused:


Hitler?<------>High Gas Prices?

^^^^what he said^^^^

Where's this thread going?

SCCH

[BruteForce]

Where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?

[SC Cheesehead]

Where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?


Whoooooboy, I hear that loud and clear!!:rolleyes:

SCCH

[larryo340]

Hitler?<------>High Gas Prices?

^^^^what he said^^^^

Where's this thread going?

SCCH
:sorry: I know, I know, now back to the evil gas companies and gas price discussion


please, pretty please :hide:

[Mad4Macs]

Bad gas companies :lol:

[cyclopsram]

didn't you know, White Gas can't jump or even run fast ? If all the voters would let us build some refineries once in a while we wouldn't have to import gas all refined and do more of it here... Put it in my backyard...build build build pipelines and explore and drill... the elk will just cozy up to the nice warm pipeline and not freeze to death... will be good for nature...

[lucenti]

it's going to $8 a gallon

[larryo340]

it's going to $8 a gallon
now THAT would suck :mad2:

[BruteForce]

Some not so intelligent business owners may think that way. But if they are smart, they will NOT do what you are suggesting.

It has been proven time and time again that a company will achieve greater income with greater volume of sales with lower profit margins/prices than high prices/profit margins with lower total volume of sales.....

What you are insinuating is that the standard school of thought on supply and demand is bunk. I don't think so. You are wrong. Period. At least I hope you are. Because if they did what you say, we are all screwed...

I guess oil companies are included in your group of "not so intelligent business owners". Article today (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/business/24refinery.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin) in the NY Times (emphasis mine):

Oil Industry Says Biofuel Push May Hurt at Pump
By JAD MOUAWAD
Published: May 24, 2007

Gas prices are spiking again — to an average of $3.22 a gallon, and close to $4 a gallon in many areas.

And some oil executives are now warning that the current shortages of fuel could become a long-term problem, leading to stubbornly higher prices at the pump.

They point to a surprising culprit: uncertainty created by the government’s push to increase the supply of biofuels like ethanol in coming years.

In his State of the Union address in January, President Bush called for a sharp increase in the use of biofuels, along with some improvement in automobile fuel efficiency to reduce America’s use of gasoline by 20 percent within 10 years. Congress is considering legislation calling for a nearly fivefold increase in the use of ethanol.

That has forced many oil companies to reconsider or scale back their plans for constructing new refinery capacity.

In hearings before Congress last year, oil executives outlined plans to increase fuel production by expanding existing refineries. Those plans would add capacity of 1.6 million to 1.8 million barrels a day over the next five years, for an increase of 10 percent, according to the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association.

But those plans have since been scaled back to more than one million barrels a day, according to the Energy Information Administration, an arm of the federal government.

"If the national policy of the country is to push for dramatic increases in the biofuels industry, this is a disincentive for those making investment decisions on expanding capacity in oil products and refining," said John D. Hofmeister, the president of the Shell Oil Company. "Industrywide, this will have an impact."

The concerns were echoed in a recent report by Barclays Capital, which said the uncertainty about the ethanol growth "will do little to accelerate desperately needed investment in complex United States refining units."

"Indeed, it is likely to deter and further delay investment, if not rule out many refinery investments completely."

Even so, the current cost of gas — which in real terms is approaching the old peak of $1.42 a gallon in March 1981, or $3.31 adjusted for inflation — has renewed suspicions that the oil industry is looking for ways to keep profits high by delaying much-needed investments. Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, began hearings yesterday on the topic "Is Market Concentration in the U.S. Petroleum Industry Harming Consumers?"

And the House voted yesterday by a narrow margin to penalize any oil companies, traders or retailers found to be charging "unconscionably excessive” prices for gasoline and other fuels. President Bush will probably veto the measure because the White House has said such legislation would amount to price controls.

Experts point to many short-term reasons the United States is running low on gasoline, causing prices to rise: many oil companies are doing maintenance work on refineries; new federal rules make fuels cleaner but costlier; and a string of delays, fires and accidents in the industry have reduced supplies just when drivers are starting to hit the road for summer vacations. Many analysts predict prices will keep rising, then soften later in the summer as demand trails off.

Energy executives dismissed any suggestions that they were intentionally keeping gasoline off the market.

The oil companies say their views on the longer-term prospects for fuel reflect simple economics. Because of the enormous investments required to expand refineries, they say they have no other choice but to re-examine their plans in light of the calls for more ethanol fuel, regardless of how realistic they may be.

"The policy environment has shifted dramatically," said Mike Wirth, head of global refining business for Chevron. "There is a great risk that has been introduced to projects, predicated upon increasing supplies, that the demand may not be there."

Refineries are a choke point in the nation’s supply of fuel. Because they have not invested enough in refineries to increase gasoline supplies, oil companies have been unable to meet the country’s growing demand in recent years. That has forced them to rely on imports, which are more expensive than fuel refined domestically.

The fragility of the refining system became apparent after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005. At the time, President Bush offered to reopen some military bases as sites for constructing refineries and Congress passed legislation to encourage refiners.

But oil companies rejected the idea of constructing new refineries in the United States, saying it would be impractical and too expensive.

[snip background about biofuels]

Lawrence Goldstein, an energy analyst at the Energy Policy Research Foundation, an industry-financed group, has been warning for nearly a year that the government’s twin goals of encouraging refiners to increase production and promoting increased supplies of biofuels work against each other.

"These two policies are not complementary," Mr. Goldstein said. "These policies are in conflict."

In addition, Mr. Goldstein said, an emphasis on ethanol might lead to increased volatility in fuel prices.

"If we get a bad corn crop, we will end up paying for it at the pump and on the food shelves," he said. "We are not buying security. We are increasing volatility."

Clay Sell, the deputy secretary of energy, acknowledged the concern, but said that rising energy consumption meant both biofuels and additional refining capacity would be needed in the long term.

"One can think that these goals are potentially in conflict," Mr. Sell said. "But demand growth supports the need for investments in biofuels and growth in refining capacity. Are we concerned about it? Yes. But do we believe these concerns are well founded? No."

Until the mid-1990s, the United States had significant spare refining capacity. But because of consolidation in the industry, the number of refineries declined while unprofitable operations were shut. As demand grew, however, and capacity remained flat, the picture changed. In recent years, refineries in the United States have been running at or close to full capacity.

Domestic refineries can now process about 17.5 million barrels of crude oil each day, much of it imported. But with consumption now close to about 21 million barrels a day, more imports of refined products are also needed.

In recent weeks, refiners point out that they have been increasing output: gasoline production in the United States is at its highest level ever, 8.85 million barrels a day.

Also, by increasing output from existing refineries, oil companies say they have expanded their production by 200,000 barrels a day since last year. Expansion of existing plants has added the equivalent of 10 new refineries over the last 10 years.

The refining industry has also spent vast amounts — more than $50 billion in the last 10 years — to meet requirements to produce cleaner fuels, according to the American Petroleum Institute, the industry’s main trade group.

But demand is outstripping supply. In the first three quarters of the year, gasoline use grew by 2 percent, nearly twice last year’s pace. Domestically produced supplies, though, have increased by only 0.5 percent a year on average.

[snip consumer quotes]

[Bluerauder]

They point to a surprising culprit: uncertainty created by the government’s push to increase the supply of biofuels like ethanol in coming years.
This is another case of Damned if you do and Damned if you don't. Well, I'll be damned. :rolleyes:

[Breadfan]

The thing that scares me there is that like technology laws you have a bunch of old stick in the muds trying to write policy for something they don't have the intelligence to comprehend.

I doubt there are many legislators that know much of ANYTHING about ethanol or how it's made, but they'll hear a good idea from the environmentalists and run like mad with it thinking they found the easy fix.

[duhtroll]

And their excuse for not increasing refinery capacity the last 50 years is . . .?

Bunch of f***ing liars.

Summed up, here is what's happening.

"Despite our efforts to keep the entire US chained to gasoline, you stupid people are still trying to find alternative fuels, so we're going to nail you in the a$$ any way we can."

-Big Oil

As far as alternatives go, we already have the technology to produce electric cars that can go 300 miles per charge. They also go 0-60 in under 4 seconds. Wonder who is standing in the way of those?

It ain't the consumers, as the ones who leased the initial fleet of electrics wanted to keep them but were told they couldn't. GM reclaimed them and crushed them, and then told everyone "there's no demand."

It isn't just the oil. Think about all of the parts not needed in an electric car, and how many billions of dollars would be lost in replacement parts, and you have your answer.

[Todd]

I do know that. I am right, as I said *gross* revenue, not *net*. ;)

I've worked in or around the oil and gas industry for many years. It really doesn't matter ethier, as they've stopped using the petrolium based lubricants when they 'stick' it to us anyhow.


I was talking literally.... You said 1 'barrel' of oil equals x number of 'liters' of oil and at a certain price per liter that equals a certain number of dollars.

I was being literal by saying there are byproducts in raw crude that are not part of retail gasoline product. And therefore 1 barrel or raw crude does not equal 1 barrel of retail gasoline.

What else is meant by 'refining' the oil.... Obviously there is waste.

I just love when the obvious it too obvious for some to understand. ;)

[Todd]

Bruteforce,

Duhtroll said it perfectly above.

They are looking at curbing the cunstruction of additional refineries NOW.... Where have they been for the last 30 years??? Handcuffed by environmentalists and red tape and whatever.... Of course now that there are significant talks of alternative fuels they arent going to invest in things that could prove to have no return on investment.

They should have thought about that years ago.

[SC Cheesehead]

As far as alternatives go, we already have the technology to produce electric cars that can go 300 miles per charge. They also go 0-60 in under 4 seconds. Wonder who is standing in the way of those?

I'm not certain that eelctric cars are the answer either. Regardless of time or distance, sooner or later an electric car is going to have to be recharged, and the electricity required for the recharge comes from power plants, most of which burn coal or NG to generate it, so where's the big gain here?

As for bio-fuels (i.e. ethanol) studies show that it takes as much energy to produce enthanol as it yields, once again, where's the big gain?

Hydrogen technology sounds promising.

Also, hybrids are a reasonable short-term alternative. Ms. CH has an Escape Hybrid, and it's pretty impressive technolgy, decent performance, and an ave. 33 mpg.

SCCH

[Rider90]

now THAT would suck :mad2:
$8.00 is half-assed. Let's shoot for $10.00. :bows:

[duhtroll]

I'm not certain that eelctric cars are the answer either. Regardless of time or distance, sooner or later an electric car is going to have to be recharged, and the electricity required for the recharge comes from power plants, most of which burn coal or NG to generate it, so where's the big gain here?

Right now coal and NG aren't at crisis levels. I never said electrics were a long-term answer but they sure as heck would solve our current problem. We don't need to be in the situation we are in currently. The oil companies bought the electric streetcars and replaced them with gasoline powered ones, (and/or buses) and convinced the big auto makers that they would be losing billions in replacement parts (filters and oil changes) since electric engines don't have all the moving parts an IC engine does.

In the history of automaking, electric engines have been around about as long and have outperformed IC. Greed put our markets where they are today.


As for bio-fuels (i.e. ethanol) studies show that it takes as much energy to produce enthanol as it yields, once again, where's the big gain?

Not using purchased oil as much, instead opting for domestic production. There's your gain. Not having to transport it across the globe, either. We also don't have anywhere near the corn (or sugar) to produce all the ethanol we would need, but that doesn't mean it won't help in the short term.

Biodiesel has more promise than ethanol, and eventually being able to run your car on animal waste? Now THERE is your cheap, renewable resource.


Hydrogen technology sounds promising.

Yes, it does. 15 years from now, that is. The technology just isn't feasible yet. Waiting around for hydrogen and doing nothing in the mean time will make the problem far worse than it is. My point is we have tech right now that can eliminate the problem for the short term until we can figure out what to do for the long term. Big Oil has bought everyone they need to ensure we are stuck with them for a good long time.


Also, hybrids are a reasonable short-term alternative. Ms. CH has an Escape Hybrid, and it's pretty impressive technolgy, decent performance, and an ave. 33 mpg.

Electric is better than gas/electric as far as consumption. We already know how to build them and have the plants to do it. We just won't, because that doesn't keep parts makers and Big Oil in business.

[Bluerauder]

$8.00 is half-assed. Let's shoot for $10.00. :bows:
It won't happen .... it's gotta be $7.999 or $9.999 'cause we are idiots and think that 1/10 of a penny isn't really there. :rofl:

[duhtroll]

Of course not.


It won't happen .... it's gotta be $7.999 or $9.999 'cause we are idiots and think that 1/10 of a penny isn't really there. :rofl:

[Bluerauder]

Wis. Gas Station Shuts Pumps Over Prices
By DINESH RAMDE, Associated Press Writer
2 hours ago

MEQUON, Wis. - Motorists pulled in to Harvey Pollack's gas station Thursday, honked and gave him a thumbs-up _ because he wasn't selling any fuel.

The owner of Towne Market Mobil in this suburb north of Milwaukee shut down his pumps for 24 hours, hoping to start a movement aimed at persuading oil companies to lower their prices.

"Somebody out there is making money at these prices, but not me," said Pollack, 57. "So I just thought: What can I do to help the consumer?"

Yellow caution tape surrounded Pollack's six idle pumps for his protest, which drew dozens of drivers. One in a green minivan rolled down her window and shouted "Thank you!"

Maria McClory, 38, drove 10 miles out of her way to buy a diet soda from Pollack's station after seeing local television coverage of the protest.

"I just wanted to support them and thank them for making a statement," said McClory, who drives about 100 miles a day for work in her sport utility vehicle.

Other drivers were more skeptical.

Jeff Bensman, 52, pulled in expecting to gas up his Honda sedan. He said he appreciated the protest but did not think it would make much difference.

"Most other places are going to be open in the area," he said.

Jack Sobczak, general sales manager for Lakeside Oil Co., a contracted Mobil distributor that supplies Pollack's station, said Bensman was probably right: "The demand will just move down the street to the next Mobil station."

Pollack and station general manager John Schwartz agreed to experiment with a pump shutdown after an Internet-based push for a one-day gas boycott went largely unheeded last week.

"Somebody's got to be the first to try this," Schwartz said.

The Mequon station sells about 3,500 gallons of gas a day, Pollack said. He estimated the station would lose only $1,500 on the protest because some losses in gas would be made up by people buying convenience store items or more gas on Friday.

Pollack, who also owns a Milwaukee title insurance agency, said he bought the gas station in 2003 as an investment but he has not turned a profit in 30 months because gas margins are razor thin and he cannot sell enough volume to compensate.

Pollack said he has virtually no control over the price he charges for gas. The company usually makes 8 to 12 cents per gallon after suppliers' prices and credit card fees. On Wednesday _ the day before the protest _ that added up to $3.49 for a gallon of unleaded gas.

Schwartz called that "outrageous" and said even he can't fill up his SUV at that price.

"If it keeps going like this, my kids will never be able to afford to drive," said Schwartz, who has an 18-year-old son and 15-year-old daughter.

___

On the Net:

AAA summary of gas prices: http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/WIavg.asp

[SC Cheesehead]

Biodiesel has more promise than ethanol, and eventually being able to run your car on animal waste? Now THERE is your cheap, renewable resource.

Now THAT makes sense! With four dogs, I've got a virtually unlimited supply!:D

SCCH

[larryo340]

It won't happen .... it's gotta be $7.999 or $9.999 'cause we are idiots and think that 1/10 of a penny isn't really there. :rofl:
that's because too many idiots think 1/10th = $1
( in thier minds anyway)

[RaceLegend79]

Hey Ive got 6 dogs and 1 cat Id never have to pay for fuel again, it would always be available and my animals would definately be wellll fed.
:banana2:

[1 Bad Merc]

I will tell you guys that this gas situation is getting down right insane! Gas prices jumping within hours!!!!! Where's all the media and government critics? Who is watching out for us little guys? Well, here is my theory on this gas situation:

I agree with alot of the comments about supply-side economics but what is not taken into consideration is the theory of true capitalism.

True capitalism states that when the price goes up on a commodity and their is a shortage of supply that this will increase competition in the market. In other words, when the profit levels rise to a certain point this should entice other companies to jump into the fray and start production. When this happens supply should over-take demand and the price is supposed to come down. IE: More product=same consumption=price reductions. Because we are no longer a true capitalist society anymore (thank you US Govt) you will not see a Joe's Oil and Refinery start up any time soon. In fact, the U.S. Govt has allowed cartels and monopolies to be formed and run rampant in our country.

How did they do this you ask- Well, they have put in so many laws and restrictions in place (grandfathered in alot of older companies that dont have to live up to the new laws) that they have made it too expensive for the average company to want too try and compete in any of the big markets. You only have to look at the cable companies, electric companies,railroads and oil companies to see what I am talking about.

Who do I blame in this situation.....I blame everyone in our big Government that has allowed this situation to happen. What I mean by big Government is every Congressman and Senator that ever took a dime from these companies. I personally blame every Republican and Democrat that sold us (there constituents) down the river!

How do you fix it? -Take away the big companies' rights to contribute to these people. Eliminate PAC contributions and put in some term limits so these guys cant stay in office for 20 years. Revise a couple of laws (do we really need summer gas?), and make it so they have to depend upon you, there constituents, for campaign money. I'll bet you your last dollar that they would do whatever it took to make sure you still had gas money in your pocket in order for you to contribute to their upcoming election campaigns! :eek:

Well....time to get off the Soapbox.

This, as always, is just my .02.

Brad

[MM03MOK]

$3.35 for 93 seems to be the norm around here, though with the discount at a supermarket chain station, I paid $3.18 yesterday for 93. With Memorial Day upon us (always another excuse to boost prices in a resort area), I'm sure it won't last at that price.

[larryo340]

$3.35 for 93 seems to be the norm around here, though with the discount at a supermarket chain station, I paid $3.18 yesterday for 93. With Memorial Day upon us (always another excuse to boost prices in a resort area), I'm sure it won't last at that price.
I agree, let us know how much it goes up

[SC Cheesehead]

my animals would definately be wellll fed.
:banana2:

:lol:Anybody ever seen a 40 lb. dachshund?:lol:

SCCH

[Dr Caleb]

I was being literal by saying there are byproducts in raw crude that are not part of retail gasoline product. And therefore 1 barrel or raw crude does not equal 1 barrel of retail gasoline.

Ahh, sorry. Misunderstanding. I meant to express two different thoughts in my post. Oil costs the company a flat rate to take from the ground; and the selling price of one barrell of refined gasoline at the pump in comparison.

I think they've improved some in the last years too. Something like 70% - 80% of a barrell of oil can be refined to gasoline.

[KillJoy]

Well.... our Gas prices are now down to about $3.33 for 87 Octane.

It amazes me how is jumps so high, then comes down a small bit. Almost makes you feel like you are getting a deal at $2.99 / Gallow :rolleyes:

I hadn't even thought about Memorial Day Weekend when I started this Thread.

KillJoy

[pantheroc]

You wont see them boost diesel prices because the truckers will get involved like in the past. You know the general car driving public will not protest, they don't have the organization or find the time.

Big oil didn't anticipate gas station owners stopping thier pumps. Maybe that is a way to start getting attention.....Then the corporate weenies will put clauses into contracts for penalizing station owners who shutdown.

We're F'd!

[larryo340]

:lol:Anybody ever seen a 40 lb. dachshund?:lol:

SCCH
Nope, but I got a 18 lb one

[SC Cheesehead]

Nope, but I got a 18 lb one

I've got 4 of the little rascals. Two weigh just about 17 lbs, the third one's about 25, then there's the fat old dude, Myer (a.k.a. the Carolina Marauder mascot) who weighs about 27 lbs.

Funny thing is, the two skinny ones poop more than the other two big 'uns, go figure.

SCCH

[KillJoy]

Funny thing is, the two skinny ones poop more than the other two big 'uns, go figure.

Maybe the big ones are just full of ****?

:D

KillJoy

[larryo340]

mine is house trained for wee wee pads, pees alot and *****s like a goose, every 8 minutes:rolleyes: (thank god for ebay)

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/5/0/2/6/aaa004_thumb.jpg (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/showimage.php?i=7750&c=3&userid=5026)
I know......"off topic"

[SC Cheesehead]

mine is house trained for wee wee pads, pees alot and *****s like a goose, every 8 minutes:rolleyes: (thank god for ebay)

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/5/0/2/6/aaa004_thumb.jpg (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/showimage.php?i=7750&c=3&userid=5026)
I know......"off topic"

I hear that loud and clear!



Maybe the big ones are just full of ****?":D
KillJoy




As much as they eat, that's likely:)

SCCH

[larryo340]

I hear that loud and clear!






As much as they eat, that's likely:)

SCCH
Mine does not like water, I can't even get him to go for a walk if street is wet.
are those both long hairs, got any larger pics ? I'm getting old it's hard to see them in those pics