Fog light operation

[Constable]

Ok guys, lets here your input:

On the "HID Headlight Install" thread, several posts were made in reference to the fog light operation. In my case (300B), I must first turn my headlight knob to the 'marker lights' position. The knob will ONLY pull out to the 'fog light' position if the marker lights or headlights are on.

Some posts were made that would lead a logical man to believe that the are some MM's out there that can turn the foglights on without ANY other lights being on (300A's possibly??). I'd appreciate any input from owners of both models. If it is in fact another 300A / 300B difference, then I want to learn how to "hot rod" my fogs so that they can be turned on alone. Thanks for any replies ----- Ryan.

[Ross]

Maybe this is a geographic thing. When you say "marker lights" are you referring to what we would call "parking lights" down here? I don't think I have ever heard that term before. Of course, I've heard a lot on this board that I have never heard before!

[SergntMac]

Very early production 300A here X2. Both require the headlights or parking lights to be switched on.

[Constable]

Correct, I am referring to "parking lights". The terms are interchangeable. I worked for a trucking business for years and I just got used to calling everything "Marker Lights".

[Constable]

Thanks Mac... 'preciate it.

[Dr Caleb]

300Ac - 4 operational modes. Clockwise...
1) Do nothing, daytime running lights are on when the car is running [1]
2) Turn on marker/parking lights. Pull switch out. Fog lights +daytime running lights + marker lights.
3) Turn lights on. Lights are on. Annoying *bing*bing*bing* when you remove keys from the car. Pull switch out: fog lights + main headlights.
4) Turn switch counter clockwise from "off". Lights come on/turn off automatically. Pull switch -> Fog lights come on automagically too.

[1] Daytime running lights have been manditory in Canada since the late 80's. New cars must come with them standard. Your headlights are on at 75% brightness whenever the engine is running. These are reffered to as "Daytime running Lights". When your headlights are running at 100%, such as at night, there are the "mains". Some vehicles, mostly standard transmission models, have the lights turn off when the parking brake is engaged. Some automatics can be started with the parking brake engaged, and the running lights will remain off until the brake disengages. There is no way to turn this off in the Marauder.

Refering back to the other thread, I like to drive around town with just my fog lights on, as a courtesy to other drivers if I have changed my main lights to brighter than standard. So then, I prefer to let my fog lamps take over this role, but I have found that the Marauders fog lamps are not well suited to this purpose. I like to get better mains as I live outside of town, and the better lights are useful for lighting up the ditches so I don't hit deer, moose, cows, alpacas etc. at night.

[Constable]

Thanks Doc... my MM doesn't have daytime running lights, though. Steer clear of those alpacas... can't trust them.

[MAD-3R]

It's the etc. that has me worried.... some of the critters up there would EAT the Marauder.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
so I don't hit deer, moose, cows, alpacas etc. at night.

ALPACAS?! I thought Canada was our neighbour to the NORTH? ...or has Canada changed its national anthem to "I Come From a Land Down Under"?

:lol: :help: :D

[jefferson-mo]

Alpacas??????

In Canada?

:lol:



I think the only way to light the fogs without any other lights on is.......separate wiring and switch to the fogs exclusively.............

[jefferson-mo]

Also...Dr.............ask Steve(tripletransam) about reworking the


DRL/park brake issue....I know he was working on it...............

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by Mad3R
It's the etc. that has me worried.... some of the critters up there would EAT the Marauder.

Originally posted by jefferson-mo
Alpacas??????

In Canada?

:lol:
[B]
Originally posted by RF-Overlord

ALPACAS?! I thought Canada was our neighbour to the NORTH? ...or has Canada changed its national anthem to "I Come From a Land Down Under"?

:lol: :help: :D

I have several neighbours. One raises Alpacas and llamas, one raises Elk, one raises Cows that think they are squirrels (a little mad) :lol: and another raises Buffalo.

Now you know why I check the ditches more than the road. I have to say though, Alpacas and Llamas are wonderful animals. Very friendly, almost dog like. Good thing he only raises them for wool. But buffalo! Take the biggest, meanest bull you've ever seen, and that is a small, gentle buffalo.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by jefferson-mo
Also...Dr.............ask Steve(tripletransam) about reworking the


DRL/park brake issue....I know he was working on it...............


My initial idea was to run wiring from the DRL module to the interior, in order to selectively turn off the DRLs (I have a nice plug where the fuel door release button should have gone, just begging for this DRL kill switch or at the very least a Nitrous Oxide arming trigger :D ). This requires knowledge of a certain 'termination' plug on the harness for US cars without DRLs, as mentioned by someone on this board. I'd need a part # to study the best way to hack into this dummy connector.

Then I began wondering how I could integrate the wiring as found on the Grand Marquis/Crown Vics previous to 2003 (my understanding from the dealer being that 2003 was the first year for this DRL-always-on attrocity). I'm not sure I'm ready to put down the cash for a 2002 wiring diagram manual only to find out it suffered from the same setup.

Of course, one kind member of this board PM'ed me with a simple and very effective alternative: just yank the damned DRL fuse. I haven't tried that yet, as I'm not familiar with how sensitive the light module would be to a missing fuse (ie. would the wiring for DRLs being present combined with a missing fuse cause the light module to store an error code?).

So that's where I stand now, and I haven't been to any drive-in theaters lately so this DRL thing hasn't bothered me much. I have vacation coming up at the end of July and intend to complete the project at that point, using whichever approach from the above-listed I decide to follow.

Side note: the wiring diagram manual is really useful to have, since none of the circuit info is found in the service manual. It's not nearly as detailed as what I have available from the GM service manuals, but it's indispensable nonetheless.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Dr Caleb

4) Turn switch counter clockwise from "off". Lights come on/turn off automatically. Pull switch -> Fog lights come on automagically too.


I ran down to the garage to check out my foglamp operation and was just about to post the complete rundown, but saw you did a great job doing so. However, while typing up my now-deleted post, I did have one question: What happens when you're in AUTO mode with the fogs on, and there's enough light out such that your main lights are off? Does your 'automagically' term mean that they only come on once the main lights are triggered, under low light?

I figured I'd ask this on the board, since it would be hard to detect what mode I'm in, seeing as how I'm saddled with always-on DRLs in Canada. (although, thinking about it, I guess the parking lamps are off when only the DRLs are on and the switch is OFF, so I guess that would be my indicator of whether the main lights were on or off, it's hard to distinguish between 100% and 75% intensity in broad daylight!)

Since the switch doesn't permit pulling the foglamps to ON mode unless you're in parking-only, headlights or auto, maybe the AUTO mode can be adapted to control fog lamp operation with the headlights off? I'll have a look at the circuitry tonight and post from home (the ONE time I decide to leave the service manuals at home and not in the trunk... sheesh!!).


Side note: while we're speaking of foglamps, another mod I'd like to do is to allow for fog lamp operation during high beam usage, for those instances where I need more light in totally unlit rural areas. From what I've seen in the wiring manual, it should involve a simple bypass of one relay. More to come in the coming weeks...

[MN6]

TTA, I do not have the details with me today but I did a mod to my 2003 F-350 (with Foglights) that allows them to be on with the High Beams. In the Trucks, the Fog's operate off a ground circuit on the wiring harness, I had to unplug and direct ground the Fog Lights. Once completed they work like a charm. Just a thought as you head back out to the Garage.

[Constable]

Thanks for all your input steve, I'm looking forward to the high-beam solution. I've noticed that when I trigger the beams & the fogs shut off, I'm at a tremendous lack of light directly in front of the car.

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Does your 'automagically' term mean that they only come on once the main lights are triggered, under low light?


Yes, the fog lights remain off until triggered by low light. Try it. Cover over the flashy thing and the light sensor on the windshield side of your overhead console...it'll turn on the lamps.



Side note: while we're speaking of foglamps, another mod I'd like to do is to allow for fog lamp operation during high beam usage, for those instances where I need more light in totally unlit rural areas. From what I've seen in the wiring manual, it should involve a simple bypass of one relay. More to come in the coming weeks...

Cool! About your previous post, I know the DRL in my CV was a module. Perhaps just cutting power to that module would kill the DRL??

[Constable]

Is this light sensor the same one that acts as the theft deterent with the flashing red light?? If it is, mine is on the drievr side dashboard. I looked at the front of my overhead console and found nothing.

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by Constable
Is this light sensor the same one that acts as the theft deterent with the flashing red light?? If it is, mine is on the drievr side dashboard. I looked at the front of my overhead console and found nothing.

Yes, the light sensor is on the left dash. There is also a sensor in the front of the overhead console, at least in my car. I'm not sure if it's the exterior temperature sensor or a light sensor for the rear view mirror - I don't have the manuals. It's really hard to get a look at, try the feel method, it's high up near the roof and a little to the right. I'm pretty sure it's not a screw, as it it really smooth and flat.

[TripleTransAm]

I've never tried posting inline pictures before, so here goes:

Here are some scans I colored to show voltages. Green is 12V, blue is ground (0 V) and pink is a pulse-modulated voltage (imagine flicking a light switch on-off so fast, it actually produces a dimmed version of the full-on brightness). Consider that current flows from higher voltages to lower voltages, never backwards. The light blue I used around the light filaments denotes power radiation, where the current drops from its higher voltage point to the lower voltage (ie. at the input to the filament, you have 12 volts, at the output it's at 0V, the power having been dissipated by the bulb filament as heat and light).

Okay: here's the circuit with low beams on.

http://www.tripletransam.com/mm/DRL-low.jpg

Here we see the headlamps on, with the dimmer stalk set to low beams. Current from the lighting control module is allowed to flow towards ground, via the stalk switch (set to position '2') and through the 2 10A fuses to each respective headlamp filament. The other filament in each bulb is not seeing any current through it, so you can see that the foglamp cutoff relay input is at 0V (ground) and hence you can use the foglamps. This is not to be mistaken with the foglamp relay itself (not shown)... this cutoff relay I'm referring to in the diagram KILLS the fogs when energized (ie. fed with 12 V). So at 0V, you can use the fogs.

The idea to the highbeam/foglamp combo mod is to rig it so that the foglamp cutoff relay is ALWAYS grounded at the input, so the actual foglamp relay itself can keep on operating.

Remember:
foglamp cutoff relay de-energized -> foglamp relay can operate
foglamp cutoff relay energized -> say bye-bye to foglamp relay

[TAF]

3TA,

You NEVER cease to amaze me! Well done, sir. (now go put another coat of Z2 on)

[TripleTransAm]

Here's the same circuit with the highbeams on:

http://www.tripletransam.com/mm/DRL-high.jpg

Here we see that the headlamps are still on (the lighting control module is powered up and feeding 12V) but we've flipped the highbeams on (ie. moved the stalk switch to position '1').

Now we're feeding the high beam filaments with 12Vs and that filament will glow as current rushes through it to ground (the light blue aura).

Note also that we've now provided the same 12V to the foglamp cutoff relay. This will then (you guessed it) cutoff the foglamps from operating while you have the highbeams on.

Interesting to note is that the DRL module is now being fed with no voltage (ie. the leftmost bottom connector of the module is at the dark blue 0V) whereas with the low beams on, it was being fed with 12V (the light green). I'll get back to this later.

[TripleTransAm]

For the benefit of our Canadian listeners, the DRL circuit (ie. headlamps off).

http://www.tripletransam.com/mm/DRL-off.jpg

Lighting control module is dead, since we have the lightswitch off. The DRL connection I was referring to at the end of the previous post is still grounded, and the module is then pulsing out some staccato version of 12V (the rapid flipping of the light switch, in my analogy). That's the pink stuff.

Ironically, this circuit would indicate that the highbeam filaments are the ones getting the pulse modulated voltage, not the low beams as indicated in the diagram or the service manual. Regardless, I've always heard that it's the highbeams that are on at low intensity during DRL operation, so I strongly suspect the manuals are wrong.

[TripleTransAm]

And finally, in case anyone is curious about the flash-to-pass function:

http://www.tripletransam.com/mm/DRL-flash.jpg

Now the lighting control module is still on, because we have the lowbeams on. We tug on the stalk and that selects position '15' (where DO they come up with these numbers???).

On the right-hand side of the stalk switch we see that position 2 and 15 are essentially the same. So the lighting control module continues to be able to feed its 12 V all the way down through the 10A fuses and through the low beam filaments.

However, the left-hand portion of the multi-switch stalk is now allowing a separate 12V feed to come through that 25A fuse at the top, and through the highbeam filaments! So you get both highbeams AND lowbeams on during that brief time when you're tugging on the flash to pass.

Note also that the foglamp cutoff relay is being fed 12V... say bye-bye to foglamps during flash-to-pass (unless you've modded it such that the cutoff relay is always grounded and you've disconnected the feed from the highbeams).

You can also note that if you tug on the multiswitch stalk for a flash-to-pass while the headlamp switch if off, all this does is feed the highbeam filament from what's coming from that 25A fuse up at the left, since the lighting control module is effectively dead at that point. So the flash to pass with the headlamps off is less bright than the flash-to-pass with the lowbeams on.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
Yes, the light sensor is on the left dash. There is also a sensor in the front of the overhead console, at least in my car.

As far as the schematics go, there's only one light sensor for the auto lights... that's the one on the dash. As for the other 'sensor', no idea... I'll check if I have the same tomorrow. From the service manual description of the overhead console, I'd say it's a mounting screw, perhaps covered with a plug?

The auto-dimming rear view mirror senses light from the rear of the vehicle, so the sensor is actually located on the mirror near the on/off button and the little green status light.

Trivia: regardless of the light content, it always reverts to "non-dimming" mode when you select reverse.

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
As far as the schematics go, there's only one light sensor for the auto lights... that's the one on the dash. As for the other 'sensor', no idea... I'll check if I have the same tomorrow.

Let us know what it is. I had another peek at it, and it is definately made of glass, not a screw.

If I had to hazard a guess, from my knowledge of electronics, I'd say it was a light sensor. The easiest way to tell if there is a bright light behind you is to compare it to what is in front of you. It could also be a temp sensor but wouldn't need to be made of glass...just a guess however.

Thanks for the wiring diagrams TTA. If there were some way to ground the fogs, then they could be on at our command. But the diagram doesn't show what the fuse is connected to, is it ACC? Otherwise the fogs could be left on after the car is turned off...

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
If there were some way to ground the fogs, then they could be on at our command. But the diagram doesn't show what the fuse is connected to, is it ACC? Otherwise the fogs could be left on after the car is turned off...


From what I see in the diagrams, you only need to fool the foglamp cutoff relay, not the foglamps themselves. That way, you simply make the cutoff relay (the box at the lower right in the diagrams) unable to know exactly whether the high beams are on or not, and hence it cannot disable the foglamp relay itself, which is further down the circuit and not show in the diagram I posted.

This involves removing the feed to the cutoff relay, taping it up so there's no short on the loose wire, and making sure the terminal on the cutoff relay is grounded. Or, you can butcher the relay such that it never trips, regardless of the input voltage, and hence never cuts off the feed to the other relay. These two relays are in the battery junction box near the pass. fender, I'll have a closer look tomorrow morning to see what they look like.

Either way, you get full foglamp control regardless of your highbeam setting. (needless to say, they remain off if your headlights are off... otherwise we'd need further modifications!).


Similarly, the DRL disable should involve simply keeping the module feed (the lower left-most input of the module) at 12V, based on what I see. But I'll have to test that out. Or one can just remove the wire that powers the lights themselves (the lower center wire, which sends the "pink" colored feed to the headlights for DRL operation). Or perhaps, as suggested, just the fuse(s) to completely disable the DRL module itself, but since there are 2 fuses feeding this, I'd have to make sure nothing else would be disabled by killing these fuses.


Ah, Ford electronics... I gotta admit that based on reading the wiring diagrams, some design issues leave me scratching my head wondering why they did things the way they did. Without further info, I'd have to say that the wiring in my General Motors cars is much more intuitive and straight-forward... no funky tricks and workarounds.

[martyo]

I am exhausted. Back to vacationing for me!

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
If there were some way to ground the fogs, then they could be on at our command. But the diagram doesn't show what the fuse is connected to, is it ACC? Otherwise the fogs could be left on after the car is turned off...


Okay, I think I misread your statement last night regarding the grounding of the fogs. You're referring to having the fogs on with the headlights off, right? In that case, it's a bit more complicated... you'd have to find a way to get power to the fogs from somewhere other than the light control module, which would be off with the headlamps off. If I'm wrong on this, I'll post a correction when I have another look at the schematics this evening, but I do think we are SOL on this particular modification (fogs on, headlamps off).

I did think of an easier way to get the highbeam-foglamp combo to work. Since I posted about keeping the cutoff relay grounded in order to keep the power path connected between the light control module and the foglamp relay, why not just remove the damned cutoff relay itself and short the two pins altogether?? I'll try that this weekend and report back.

Side note: that's TWO errors I've found in the service manual and wiring diagrams thus far, and that's just by looking over the wiring for the lighting systems!!! Unbelievable... I feel sorry for the poor techs who have to figure out these systems without the benefit of being familiar with the car's behavior itself.:mad:

[marauder307]

All this has got me confused...

Mine is an early-batch 300A (VIN 2MEHM75V83X617008, build date 06/02), and I don't have DRLs. Not a misprint...NO DRLS.

My automatic light sensor sounds a little different from everyone else's...when the skies darken during periods of bad rain during the day, the lights kick on. But they don't at night. Does the sensor know when it's legitimately dark out, as opposed to just a bad-rain day?

I've also seen a thread where someone was talking about their wipers being interconnected with the automatic light function. Mine aren't (still have to replace those wimpy-a$$ stock wipers, BTW...)

My light switch has the position setting one click to the left for "auto" function, but it seems to do nothing. Otherwise, all other light functions are normal. Even got chased by a drunk last night because he was mad at me for blasting all that candlepower at him in his rearview...I hate drunk drivers...

Can anybody clear up my confusion?

[MM03MOK]

Here's what I've experienced.......

300A born 08/29/02

Switch in Auto position (to the left of Off):
- Lights come on at dusk and at night
- Lights come on in tunnels
- Lights come on when very overcast
(the "electric eye" should not need to distinguish between night and overcast - it's either dark enough or it isn't.)

Switch on Auto or Off position:
- Lights come on 10 seconds after wipers are turned on and turn off shortly after wipers are turned off.

No DRL:
- I think I read here that the US MMs don't have DRL.

marauder307: Get new blades!!!

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by marauder307
All this has got me confused...

Not a misprint...NO DRLS.

My automatic light sensor sounds a little different from everyone else's...when the skies darken during periods of bad rain during the day, the lights kick on. But they don't at night. Does the sensor know when it's legitimately dark out, as opposed to just a bad-rain day?

I've also seen a thread where someone was talking about their wipers being interconnected with the automatic light function. Mine aren't

My light switch has the position setting one click to the left for "auto" function, but it seems to do nothing.

Even got chased by a drunk last night because he was mad at me for blasting all that candlepower at him in his rearview...I hate drunk drivers...

Can anybody clear up my confusion?

Not having DRL's isn't a big thing for you. They are an option on the 300b's in the States. TTA and I are in Canada, where DRL's are manditory, so all cars have them.

With your light sensor, when the skies darken, your lights should come on, that is what the left position of the switch should do. Could it be your lights come on in the rain due to the windhield wiper - tie in? To check it, put something over the sensor, see if your lights come on. A magazine, an empty coffee cup etc. Anything that blocks light. Your lights should come on in 30 seconds or so (or immediately if the car was off and you start it) if the switch is set to the left. If you pull the switch as well, your fog lights will come on as well. If not, take it to your dealer!

As for getting chased by a drunk - if I see someone who can't keep it between the lines, and can't maintain a constant speed, I call 911. No exceptions. I follow at a safe distance after getting the plate, and point them out to the police. That person is taking my life and the lives of others in their own precarious hands. For my safety and the safety of others, I want them off my road - now.

[marauder307]

Thanks guys...

Figgered it out last night. (I'm Coast Guard reserve, and I've been working the St. Louis Fair for the 4th of July, hence my nocturnal excursions...I don't ordinarily go out evenings)

I run around with my switch in the Off position all the time, hence no auto function.

Where is the sensor for this setup? Been scratching my head trying figure that one out...while I'm asking, where's the sensor for the outside air temp as well? With the advent of the Missouri summer, I've been getting some funky outside temps showing up on the display...they drop pretty rapidly once I get rolling, tho. (for example, yesterday at midday, I got a temp of 110. It settled back to 95 once I got going to work...I know black cars attract heat like magnets, I understood that would part of the package when I bought it, but wow! That sensor must be cooking!)

MM03MOK: Yer right...and I'm off at the next payday to fix those durn blades...

Dr. Caleb: Yer right about those drivers...this guy was gone quick. Musta had a flash of insight when he saw the cop-car lines...blast my eyes, I didn't have my cellphone handy. As a USCG reservist, I work with a lotta local cops here...I was ready to eat that guy alive...