Scooter f-ing Libby?!

[CBT]

The President just commuted his sentence but Ramos and Campion are still in jail?! GRRRRRR!!!!!! M-m-must a-vvvvoid temptation to w-w-write story!!!

[RCSignals]

Hey, he left Paris in the lurch too.

Good for Scooter

[SC Cheesehead]

Hey, he left Paris in the lurch too.

Yeah, you can bet Slick Willie wouldn't have done that!;)

SCCH

[fastblackmerc]

Yeah, you can bet Slick Willie wouldn't have done that!;)

SCCH
Not after their "private" meeting!

[Mad1]

Scooter spent less time behind bars than the journalist he "leaked" to in this case.

NYT reporter Judith Miller spent 85 days behind bars to protect her source.

I guess we can consider this a victory for something, somewhere, right?

Jeremy
Mad1

[Mike Poore]

Yeah, you can bet Slick Willie wouldn't have done that!;)

SCCH

President Bush is a piker, compared to some of the despicable folks Bill Clinton pardoned. Remember the lady from New York with the big taa-taa's who's fugitive husband was pardoned, after her repeated overnighters to the Lincoln bedroom? At least Mr. Clinton got something, for his trouble.
It's nice to be king, they say.:bandit:

It's the president's prerogative, though, and after the circus act put on by 'ol Val's husband, I'd much rather have seen Joe Wilson do the time. :D

[Mike Poore]

The President just commuted his sentence but Ramos and Campion are still in jail?! GRRRRRR!!!!!! M-m-must a-vvvvoid temptation to w-w-write story!!!

You can't write anything better'n the way this story's unfolding. Did you see that Schmuck Schummer trampled 4 news persons while getting to the microphone to make his latest outrageous pronouncement about our justice system being a laughing stock? I can't wait to hear what Mrs. Clinton has to say about it. :rofl:

[sailsmen]

I lived in NYC when the terrorists were bombing the buildings I walked by and killed an LEO.

Clinton pardoned them so his wife would get their vote.:mad2:

[CBT]

When I'm elected President, Marauder owners can all do whatever the heck you want, I'll pardon yous.

[High-C]

When I'm elected President, Marauder owners can all do whatever the heck you want, I'll pardon yous.

You've got my vote... I like your style. How about no speed-limits for Marauder owners as well??? Oh, and government subsidized superchargers!!!

[Mike Poore]

You've got my vote... I like your style. How about no speed-limits for Marauder owners as well??? Oh, and government subsidized superchargers!!!


And free gas......:banana2:

[oldekid]

No, don't get the government involved. They will attempt to achieve equality amongst us.

If you are a "Blue" living in this neighborhood, you will now have to travel across town to get your MM serviced, instead of driving down the street to your normal dealership. Simply because that dealership doesn't see many "Blues".

A meet/gathering will only be legal if we have certain percentages of each color represented.

Since the "Blacks" are supposedly the fastest, they will be required to give the "Silvers", "Blues", and "DTRs" a half car length at the track.

I could go on and on. . . . . . . but

:banana:

[Hotrauder]

Scooter spent less time behind bars than the journalist he "leaked" to in this case.

NYT reporter Judith Miller spent 85 days behind bars to protect her source.

I guess we can consider this a victory for something, somewhere, right?

Jeremy
Mad1

For those who do not read or have short memories, Libby did not leak Plame's name. That came from the Libs in the State Dept. that dufus looking bastage is still running around stepping on johnsons over at foggy bottom. His name is RICHARD ARMATIGE. Don't know why Miller chose to spend the 85 days in the slammer other than it got her a lot of face time on tv and with the media she was a hero for about 3 months. This whole sorry mess was a blatent attempt by Wilson and Plame and the dems to discredit the President. The real target of the chowder headed clowns was Chaney or at the very least Rove. The target of the Special Prosecutor was the leaker (who has skated altho he admitted afterward he did leak her name). One more sorry mess that illustrates why government in Washington, D.C, does not work. We need to throw them all out. Term limits are probably the only answer that makes sense. The founders must be doing about 25,000rpms in their graves about now. Dennis

[Todd]

Scooter spent less time behind bars than the journalist he "leaked" to in this case.

NYT reporter Judith Miller spent 85 days behind bars to protect her source.

I guess we can consider this a victory for something, somewhere, right?

Jeremy
Mad1

It was proven that he didn't leak the story by the way.
And there have been a number of people who conveniently 'forgot', 'didn't recall', or misplaced timelines and spent no time in jail whatsoever. For one is the last president of the US. (lets see, 'I didnt have sexual relations with that wOman'. Hmmmmm, I think my wife would call it sexual if I got multiple bj's from a woman in my office along with shoving cigars in places and giving the old pearl necklace. As well as my job would call it that as well if I, as a manager, did all those things to a subordinant. I would be crap-canned at the minimum.)

The man (Libby) should have never gone to jail in the first place. It isn't lying if you don't 'intentionally' tell a false fact. It is just a crappy memory or source.


But I agree with CBT 1000%%% about Campion and Ramos. They should have been pardoned day 1. Period.


EDIT --- I didn't read hotrauder's response. He beat me to it. Sorry bro

[sailsmen]

Can't agree more w/ u Dennis.

The actions of a particular President activated me, however I got burnt when I realized a politician is a legal prostitute whose job it is to prepetually stay in office.

A Constitutional amend for term limits.

[duhtroll]

Rove was included because there is evidence he was involved. Period. He also played the "I don't recall" game after admitting verifying Plame's employer to Bob Novak in his own grand jury testimony.

Libby became his fall guy, and is just one more in the long string of liars who will be protected by the president.

(Of course, it would be interesting to see this go to Cheney for no other reason than that I'd like to see him try to claim "executive privilege" after making himself the 4th branch of our government. :lol: )

The "libs" don't need to discredit anyone in the current administration. The administration does that to themselves with expert skill.



For those who do not read or have short memories, Libby did not leak Plame's name. That came from the Libs in the State Dept. that dufus looking bastage is still running around stepping on johnsons over at foggy bottom. His name is RICHARD ARMATIGE. Don't know why Miller chose to spend the 85 days in the slammer other than it got her a lot of face time on tv and with the media she was a hero for about 3 months. This whole sorry mess was a blatent attempt by Wilson and Plame and the dems to discredit the President. The real target of the chowder headed clowns was Chaney or at the very least Rove. The target of the Special Prosecutor was the leaker (who has skated altho he admitted afterward he did leak her name). One more sorry mess that illustrates why government in Washington, D.C, does not work. We need to throw them all out. Term limits are probably the only answer that makes sense. The founders must be doing about 25,000rpms in their graves about now. Dennis

[ParkRanger]

Rove was included because there is evidence he was involved. Period. He also played the "I don't recall" game after admitting verifying Plame's employer to Bob Novak in his own grand jury testimony.

Libby became his fall guy, and is just one more in the long string of liars who will be protected by the president.

(Of course, it would be interesting to see this go to Cheney for no other reason than that I'd like to see him try to claim "executive privilege" after making himself the 4th branch of our government. :lol: )

The "libs" don't need to discredit anyone in the current administration. The administration does that to themselves with expert skill.

The Star Wars Kid is absolutely correct.

:burnout:

[RCSignals]

Can't agree more w/ u Dennis.

The actions of a particular President activated me, however I got burnt when I realized a politician is a legal prostitute whose job it is to prepetually stay in office.

A Constitutional amend for term limits.

Sometimes I think those term limits should extend to appointed high ranking civil servants as well.

[RCSignals]

The Star Wars Kid is absolutely correct.

:burnout:

I don't know about absolute

[CBT]

Scoots was found guilty of obstruction of justice and a couple other things.
He may have been the fall guy, I don't care, he got caught and should be jailed. I agree Bill Clinton should be jailed, too. Someone elected to the highest office in this country should not be easily seduced by an 'Ugly Betty' intern. To this day I can't smoke a cigar without thinking of those two azzclowns playing Hide The Cuban. I'm so mad I can't type skrate. I'm going to shred about 2,000 miles off my back tires when I leave work today.
:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

[BruteForce]

At least it wasn't a full pardon. That would have looked like an azz move by W. Since it was just a commuted sentence, I guess that makes W half-azzed.

[Vortex]

For those who do not read or have short memories, Libby did not leak Plame's name. That came from the Libs in the State Dept. that dufus looking bastage is still running around stepping on johnsons over at foggy bottom. His name is RICHARD ARMATIGE. Don't know why Miller chose to spend the 85 days in the slammer other than it got her a lot of face time on tv and with the media she was a hero for about 3 months. This whole sorry mess was a blatent attempt by Wilson and Plame and the dems to discredit the President. The real target of the chowder headed clowns was Chaney or at the very least Rove. The target of the Special Prosecutor was the leaker (who has skated altho he admitted afterward he did leak her name). One more sorry mess that illustrates why government in Washington, D.C, does not work. We need to throw them all out. Term limits are probably the only answer that makes sense. The founders must be doing about 25,000rpms in their graves about now. Dennis

Richard Armitage is not some "liberal" and was a Republican presidential political appointee. Both Armitage and Cheney leaked Plame's name to the press. Wilson was sent by the CIA (at the request of Cheney) to determine the veracity of a story. When he reported back that the story was false, the administration didnt want to hear it. Plame, a Non-Official Cover CIA officer, had her cover blown to discredit Wilson and his report.

[duhtroll]

Dude, that was almost 10 years ago. Chill. :)

Many people have gotten away with far worse than a BJ. I simply don't understand why this one example makes people so mad. Like this hasn't gone on in most US administrations and legislative bodies. At least Clinton chose a legal adult, however ugly.

Prostitution is the oldest profession for a reason. Oh, and everyone lies.


Scoots was found guilty of obstruction of justice and a couple other things.
He may have been the fall guy, I don't care, he got caught and should be jailed. I agree Bill Clinton should be jailed, too. Someone elected to the highest office in this country should not be easily seduced by an 'Ugly Betty' intern. To this day I can't smoke a cigar without thinking of those two azzclowns playing Hide The Cuban. I'm so mad I can't type skrate. I'm going to shred about 2,000 miles off my back tires when I leave work today.
:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

[sailsmen]

He made a mockery of the court, that is why the Judge and the Bar took the actions they did.

He was "engaged" while discussing troop movements on the phone with a US Congressman.

If he would have said I am sorry I did it, it would have been just about sex and faded away. He obstructed justice and abused the power of his office.

Anybody else does that at their job and they are canned. The President or any president was put in place based on their good judgement. Having sex with an intern is bad judgement and evidence you are unfit for the job.

[CBT]

He made a mockery of the court, that is why the Judge and the Bar took the actions they did.

He was "engaged" while discussing troop movements on the phone with a US Congressman.

If he would have said I am sorry I did it, it would have been just about sex and faded away. He obstructed justice and abused the power of his office.

Anybody else does that at their job and they are canned. The President or any president was put in place based on their good judgement. Having sex with an intern is bad judgement and evidence you are unfit for the job.
Exactly! I've said it before and I'll say it again: The only good thing that ever came of out of Arkansas is I-40!

[Todd]

At least it wasn't a full pardon. That would have looked like an azz move by W. Since it was just a commuted sentence, I guess that makes W half-azzed.


But it should have been.


With all the true criminals and traitors the last president pardoned, Libby looks like a damn good influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardons_controver sy

Read that list. It should make you sick to your stomach.

[Todd]

And by the way, Sandy 'Tha Burglar' Berger steals highly classified docs from the national archives, destroys those docs, and gets away for a $50k fine, 100 hours community service, and 2 years probation. All in the wake of the 9-11 commision.

But Libby, for all intents and purposes, screws up timelines and uses the 'dont recall' excuse in the case of a shmo cia agents covert status (which he didnt even leak) and he gets $250k in fines, and 3 years in prison. Huh, sound fair to you? Oh righteous ones.....?

[Todd]

One last thing and I am done.

I just found these facts that I think is VERY worth pointing out. It was on CNN's website. Hardly the most conservative friendly media outlet. Of course W's term isnt over and many times presidents do many pardons and commutations just before they leave office. But the facts are interesting anyway.


PARDONS AND COMMUTATIONS

<!-- KEEP -->George W. Bush (2001 - )
Pardons -- 13
Commutations -- 4

Bill Clinton (1993-2001)
Pardons -- 396
Commutations -- 61

George H.W. Bush (1989-1993)
Pardons -- 74
Commutations: 3

Ronald Reagan (1981-1989)
Pardons -- 393
Commutations -- 13

Jimmy Carter (1977-1981)
Pardons -- 534
Commutations -- 29

Gerald Ford (1974-1977)
Pardons -- 382
Commutations -- 22

Richard Nixon (1969-1974)
Pardons -- 863
Commutations -- 60

Lyndon Johnson (1963-1969)
Pardons -- 960
Commutations -- 226

John F. Kennedy (1961-1963)
Pardons -- 472
Commutations -- 100

Dwight Eisenhower (1953-1961)
Pardons -- 1,110
Commutations -- 47

Harry Truman (1945-1953)
Pardons -- 1,913
Commutations -- 118

[duhtroll]

He obstructed justice and abused the power of his office.

No offense there Tex, but seriously --

Name a president in the last few decades who has not done this.

And the current admin. has not done this to an even greater degree? Really?

Clinton gets criticized for the bombing he called in to supposedly "distract people from the Lewinsky scandal."

Then 9/11 occurs and people actually go so far as to blame Clinton because he didn't bomb people enough? You can't have both.

At least when he was getting his lance waxed it didn't result in people getting killed. I never voted for the man, but you cannot even compare Clinton to W's incompetence. At least C appeared in court. W doesn't answer for anything, and everything is someone else's fault.

With the deaths for which our current president is directly responsible, a million lies about a million hummers don't even appear on the same scale.

I'm all for being outraged, but let's place the outrage where it belongs. The Bush family owes me more apologies for people no longer in my life (3) than does the Clinton family (0).

[duhtroll]

One last thing and I am done.

I just found these facts that I think is VERY worth pointing out. It was on CNN's website. Hardly the most conservative friendly media outlet. Of course W's term isnt over and many times presidents do many pardons and commutations just before they leave office. But the facts are interesting anyway.


PARDONS AND COMMUTATIONS

When the administration does not allow press access to any of its senior officials, pardons become unnecessary. Oh yeah, and now look up the number of signing statements each president has added. These are official legal interpretations of every law so that the president can basically determine how they are to be applied, or even rewritten after passing. Look up how many more W has added than every other president in US history.

[oldekid]

Touche' duhtroll!

[Todd]

Touche' duhtroll!

I dont know if I would say touche. But you may. Age gives you that right. Senility allows you to get off topic occasionally!! ;)

I havent investigated the signing statements. But since this thread was about commutation of sentence and pardons, signing statements are a little off topic for the thread..

I did read a little about it and it looks like W has used it more than others. I think the numbers I read were almost 250 uses by himself. But the last 3 presidents together used only 282 or so. Obviously there are discrepancies. But I dont know the context of a single one of those. Either in past administrations or this one.

But the one thing I do know is that partisan politics is at the highest level in history. And the level of political attack and in some cases traitorous (if thats even a word) behavior by some of our politicians against the current administration is out of control. I think if everyone nit picked every little thing I did every single time I think I would cover ever single base as well. But again, I dont know the context of any of the signing statements, and really dont understand how they work, so maybe I am wrong.

[GreekGod]

A Democrat is just a Republican that hasn't been mugged yet. There is no hope for the USA. We get what we deserve.

[BruteForce]

Anybody searched the archives here and compiled a list of adamant Dubya supporters from the past election? Notice any change of heart in recent discussions?

I won't bother to point anyone out other than to state... "I told you so".

[sailsmen]

It is not my opinon but fact. The Judge, Bar and Congress made that determination.

My answer, 2 Presidents both were impeached. Clinton was one of them.

Say what you will about Bush, due to his leadership we have been on the offense againest the terrorist since 911.

[Leadfoot281]

Anybody searched the archives here and compiled a list of adamant Dubya supporters from the past election? Notice any change of heart in recent discussions?

I won't bother to point anyone out other than to state... "I told you so".

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c293/leadfoot302/Farmer20John27s20ride.jpg
I must be getting a little hard of hearing....:P

I disagree with his decision to leave the border agents imprisoned. I also disagree with the whole amnesty issue. But as far as Libby goes, well, that guy got Nifonged.

This was a procedural conviction and no different than what happened to Martha Stewart.

And why lock him up before his appeals ran out? That's just a really good way to make certain a potentially innocent person gets punished unfairly.

[sailsmen]

"I'm all for being outraged, but let's place the outrage where it belongs. The Bush family owes me more apologies for people no longer in my life (3) than does the Clinton family (0).[/QUOTE]"

The "outrage" belongs againest the terrorist.

I lost many a colleague in 911. They worked in an office a low hazard job with the expectation of going home.This occurred during the 2nd terrorists bombing of the WTC, 911.

In every war I am aware of people died needlessly.

[Bluerauder]

Any 56 year old man that still allows people to call him "Scooter" should not be out on the streets. Period. ;)

[duhtroll]

Uh, not in this case.

See, they died in Iraq, which has been proven time and again to have had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

Well, 2 in Iraq, and one on US soil after he was so severely depressed from PTSD about being called to go to Iraq for a third time, he shot himself in the head in front of his mother. Military hospital care is bad, but treatment for war vets who are supposedly physically healthy is much worse.

I don't see how terrorists had anything to do with these deaths. Maybe someone could explain it to me.




The "outrage" belongs againest the terrorist.

I lost many a colleague in 911. They worked in an office a low hazard job with the expectation of going home.This occurred during the 2nd terrorists bombing of the WTC, 911.

In every war I am aware of people died needlessly.

[Big House]

I lived in NYC when the terrorists were bombing the buildings I walked by and killed an LEO.

Clinton pardoned them so his wife would get their vote.:mad2:

What are you saying here? I really don't get what you are saying.

[duhtroll]

But the one thing I do know is that partisan politics is at the highest level in history. And the level of political attack and in some cases traitorous (if thats even a word) behavior by some of our politicians against the current administration is out of control.

I disagree. I think that we have access to more information more quickly than ever before. I think politics in this country has always been this bad or worse. It's just that "we" didn't know about it.

Also, "news" shows are nothing more than entertainment anymore, designed only to scare people against one side or the other.

[oldekid]

I dont know if I would say touche. But you may. Age gives you that right. Senility allows you to get off topic occasionally!! ;)
Let me make sure I understand. I said one word, and that puts me off topic and senile?

You sure are a smart young (?) fellow to figure that one out. ;)

I don't like talking politics, because I don't like politicians. Some, I dislike much more than others. Since you are young and obviously very bright, I'll let you determine if I just happen to be among the very low percentage of Americans that support our current leader's directions.

My point was simply this. . . . . I was impressed by the efforts put forth by duhtroll to speak out against what seemed like a majority gang bang.

If that was off topic, so be it.

The State of Florida confirms I'm an Olde Kid. World class idiot has been consistantly confirmed by my wife.

You are now among the elite who acknowledge my senility.

So, to you I say. . . . . . touche'

:D

[Leadfoot281]

Uh, not in this case.

See, they died in Iraq, which has been proven time and again to have had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

Absolutely correct! Iraq is about the safety of the world POST 9-11. Too bad the media has led people to believe the war in Iraq was about 9-11.

Well, 2 in Iraq, and one on US soil after he was so severely depressed from PTSD about being called to go to Iraq for a third time, he shot himself in the head in front of his mother. Military hospital care is bad, but treatment for war vets who are supposedly physically healthy is much worse.

I don't see how terrorists had anything to do with these deaths. Maybe someone could explain it to me.

The two killed in Iraq were killed by the US led coalition?

So what's the solution to the lose of troops? Bring them home and put the down in an unused coal mine? With a little remodeling, they should be safe and happy down there. While we're at it, why not also put our VOLUNTEER cops and firefighters down there as well. After all, firefighting is dangerous work and they shouldn't have to do it if they don't want to regardless of weather or not they signed up for it.

[duhtroll]

The solution to the loss of troops is to not send them places where they are not needed to protect our country. Let's not start unnecessary wars, as a first step.

The odds are exceptional that those two people would be alive if we had not invaded Iraq.

And let's take your analogy one step further. What do you suggest we do with our forces this fall when we run out of rotations for Iraq? Keep sending them anyway? Run a draft? Conscription?

Do you seriously think our servicemen and women have nothing better to do than be in Iraq, as you have implied by your "coal mine" statement? Are our nation's defenses stronger or weaker as a result of our expenditure of resources in Iraq?

Again, it's because we have an administration that feels they have to answer to no one. It's why people like Libby (even though he is a minor player in this scandal) don't ever have to worry about real jail time. It's not about which side of the political scene you're on. It's about how much money you have and who you can pay off.


The two killed in Iraq were killed by the US led coalition?

So what's the solution to the lose of troops? Bring them home and put the down in an unused coal mine? With a little remodeling, they should be safe and happy down there. While we're at it, why not also put our VOLUNTEER cops and firefighters down there as well. After all, firefighting is dangerous work and they shouldn't have to do it if they don't want to regardless of weather or not they signed up for it.

[Dennis Reinhart]

The President just commuted his sentence but Ramos and Campion are still in jail?! GRRRRRR!!!!!! M-m-must a-vvvvoid temptation to w-w-write story!!!

Bill Clinton did far worse pardoning suspected terrorists, and I thought we were not doing political posts.

[GreekGod]

"NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM" = A new order of the ages

"NEW WORLD ORDER" = one world government


The world needs a policeman for the imminent international socialism.





"...Between the iron gates of fate,

The seeds of time were sown,

And watered by the deeds of those

Who know and who are known;

Knowledge is a deadly friend

When no one sets the rules.

The fate of all mankind I see

is in the hand of fools..."


from "Epitaph" including "March for no reason" and "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" (Fripp-McDonald-Lake-Giles-Sinfeld)

[sailsmen]

Uh, not in this case.

See, they died in Iraq, which has been proven time and again to have had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

Well, 2 in Iraq, and one on US soil after he was so severely depressed from PTSD about being called to go to Iraq for a third time, he shot himself in the head in front of his mother. Military hospital care is bad, but treatment for war vets who are supposedly physically healthy is much worse.

I don't see how terrorists had anything to do with these deaths. Maybe someone could explain it to me.

Osama has been quoted (worldpress.org/Americas/1964.cfm ) on numerous occasions as saying 911 was because of Iraq, referring to Desert Storm and the UN imposed sanctions.

Many terrorist have been going to Iraq, particularly from Iran. Iraq paid the families of suicide bombers. Terroists trained before 911 on an airline fueslage using box cutters located in Iraq.Terrorists sought and receved refuge in Iraq.

There have been numerous attacks againest the US before 911.

It's not about 911, the Cole, the first WTC bombing, . The terrorists have been at war with us for over 20 years before Iraq. Since 1979 by law every Iranian must chant every friday death to USA 5 times. It is about militant muslims whose goal it is to murder every single infidel.

Focus on those "responsible for 911", execute all of them. The war continues.

Either kill all militant muslims or fundamentally change their culture, environment and thought process. Kill the infidel is in their nursery rhymes, cartoons, toys and every facet of their lives.

The only place we could bring the fight to the enemy was Iraq, in the heart of the hornests nest. 19 countires are with us in Iraq.

Look at Al Gore's 1992 video critizing G W Bush for not taking more action againest Iraq, breitbart.tv/html/1602.html

For reference in WWII 300,000 Killed In Action and 150,000 Killed In Service.

[sailsmen]

What are you saying here? I really don't get what you are saying.

President Clinton pardoned 16 convicted terrorists, specifically terrorists that bombed buildings in NYC and killed an LEO. The parodns were opposed by the FBI,US Atty Office, Fraternal Order of Police, the US Congress and the Fed Bureau of Prisons.

In exchange it has been stated by many his wife Mrs. Clinton received votes to be elected as a NY Senator.

I walked by these buildings that were bombed.

[BruteForce]

So has anything changed since we occupied Iraq? I mean other than the Taliban regaining a foothold in Afghanistan?


Osama has been quoted (worldpress.org/Americas/1964.cfm ) on numerous occasions as saying 911 was because of Iraq, referring to Desert Storm and the UN imposed sanctions.

Many terrorist have been going to Iraq, particularly from Iran. Iraq paid the families of suicide bombers. Terroists trained before 911 on an airline fueslage using box cutters located in Iraq.Terrorists sought and receved refuge in Iraq.

There have been numerous attacks againest the US before 911.

It's not about 911, the Cole, the first WTC bombing, . The terrorists have been at war with us for over 20 years before Iraq. Since 1979 by law every Iranian must chant every friday death to USA 5 times. It is about militant muslims whose goal it is to murder every single infidel.

Focus on those "responsible for 911", execute all of them. The war continues.

Either kill all militant muslims or fundamentally change their culture, environment and thought process. Kill the infidel is in their nursery rhymes, cartoons, toys and every facet of their lives.

The only place we could bring the fight to the enemy was Iraq, in the heart of the hornests nest. 19 countires are with us in Iraq.

Look at Al Gore's 1992 video critizing G W Bush for not taking more action againest Iraq, breitbart.tv/html/1602.html

For reference in WWII 300,000 Killed In Action and 150,000 Killed In Service.

[BruteForce]

President Clinton pardoned 16 convicted terrorists, specifically terrorists that bombed buildings in NYC and killed an LEO. The parodns were opposed by the FBI,US Atty Office, Fraternal Order of Police, the US Congress and the Fed Bureau of Prisons.

In exchange it has been stated by many his wife Mrs. Clinton received votes to be elected as a NY Senator.

I walked by these buildings that were bombed.

Nice quote out of context. You're missing this part:


Clinton commuted the sentences of 16 members of FALN, a violent Puerto Rican nationalist group...

None of the 16 were convicted of bombings or any crime which injured another person, though they were sentenced with terms ranging from 35 to 105 years in prison for the conviction of conspiracy and sedition. Congress, however, recognizes that the FALN is responsible for "6 deaths and the permanent maiming of dozens of others, including law enforcement officials." All of the 16 had served 19 years or longer in prison, which was a longer sentence than such crimes typically received, according to the White House. Clinton offered clemency, on condition that the prisoners renounce violence, at the appeal of 10 Nobel Peace Prize laureates, President Jimmy Carter, the cardinal of New York, and the archbishop of Puerto Rico. The commutation was opposed by U.S. Attorney's Office, the FBI, and the Federal Bureau of Prisons and criticized by many including former victims of FALN terrorist activities, the Fraternal Order of Police, members of Congress, and Hillary Clinton in her campaign for Senator.

[duhtroll]

Osama has been quoted (worldpress.org/Americas/1964.cfm ) on numerous occasions as saying 911 was because of Iraq, referring to Desert Storm and the UN imposed sanctions.

Actually, he said it was because of our involvement with Israel. (quote to follow from your own site reference):

"I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced."

end quote

So, it seems 9/11 was to happen regardless of Iraq. I'm not going to say Iraq didn't give him more excuses, but the notion of attacking us was there before Iraq. Are you forgetting who put Saddam in power and armed him against Iran? That was us, BTW.

Iraq had (and has) nothing to do with 9/11.


Many terrorist have been going to Iraq, particularly from Iran. Iraq paid the families of suicide bombers. Terroists trained before 911 on an airline fueslage using box cutters located in Iraq.Terrorists sought and receved refuge in Iraq.

Most terrorists (not just anti-US terrorists, ALL terrorists) who are in Iraq have gone there since our invasion. I have seen no proof anywhere that there were any terrorists training for 9/11 while in Iraq. Seems that would have made a headline somewhere, especially on FOX News.

And, for the sake of argument if that is true -- if you're going to use that analogy, then we should be invading the places right here in our own country that trained these assassins to fly planes. In short, you still can't blame Iraq, and it has nothing to do with 9/11.


There have been numerous attacks againest the US before 911.

Right. Not all by Muslims, (Kaczynski sp?, Rudolph and McVeigh come to mind - what? CHRISTIAN bombers?! Can't be . . .) and to my knowledge none related to Iraq.


It's not about 911, the Cole, the first WTC bombing, . The terrorists have been at war with us for over 20 years before Iraq. Since 1979 by law every Iranian must chant every friday death to USA 5 times. It is about militant muslims whose goal it is to murder every single infidel.

So what you are saying is we should have invaded Iran instead? Or next? Good luck with that one. We're out of troops. Again, still nothing to do with Iraq. More to do with Israel, which we never should have gotten into in the first place (1958?).


Focus on those "responsible for 911", execute all of them. The war continues.

We, uh, did that. Except for Osama, who no one can seem to catch. Personally I think he's dead or we would be seeing him on original video more often.


Either kill all militant muslims or fundamentally change their culture, environment and thought process.

Neither of these things is possible, without nuking the entire region. Do you want millions of deaths on your hands to get a few thousand?


The only place we could bring the fight to the enemy was Iraq, in the heart of the hornests nest. 19 countires are with us in Iraq.

1. You just said Iran, above. There are a dozen better places to fight. Not that I think we should be in any of them.
2. "Coalition" forces. That's a laugh. Do us a favor and look up the numbers from each nation that are there currently, willya?


Look at Al Gore's 1992 video critizing G W Bush for not taking more action againest Iraq, breitbart.tv/html/1602.html

That was in response to invading Kuwait with regards to oil, not domestic terrorism.


For reference in WWII 300,000 Killed In Action and 150,000 Killed In Service.

In WWII there were empires with enormous resources bent on controlling the world. They were our military equals. Saddam (it has been repeatedly proven) did not have the resources to fly a decent kite, much less attack us here.

If we're going to discuss this, I suggest we use facts.

[Hotrauder]

One man's facts another man's bs. More to the point, how about a better plan forward. I fail to understand the relative value of biased opinions on events past and done. The future is much more important. We are on the door step of World War III and many want to argue the past. Again, one man's opinion. Dennis

[RCSignals]

Are you forgetting who put Saddam in power and armed him against Iran? That was us, BTW.

That needs a little more fact checking, please.




More to do with Israel, which we never should have gotten into in the first place (1958?).

Better do some more research on that one, particularly the date.






If we're going to discuss this, I suggest we use facts.

Yes lets

[BruteForce]

That needs a little more fact checking, please.





Better do some more research on that one, particularly the date.





Yes lets

Sniping with blanks, Duncan?

[RCSignals]

Sniping with blanks, Duncan?

Nope, just let someone else do the digging :)

Not that any of any of this has any relevance to anything at all, especially Scooter

[O's Fan Rich]

"NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM" = A new order of the ages

"NEW WORLD ORDER" = one world government


The world needs a policeman for the imminent international socialism.





"...Between the iron gates of fate,

The seeds of time were sown,

And watered by the deeds of those

Who know and who are known;

Knowledge is a deadly friend

When no one sets the rules.

The fate of all mankind I see

is in the hand of fools..."


from "Epitaph" including "March for no reason" and "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" (Fripp-McDonald-Lake-Giles-Sinfeld)

You ain't just whistling Dixie...
one day we'll wake up to the Light Blue Helmets here, too.

Or is it Helmuts?

[cyclopsram]

least ya can do is spell it Cheney.... tyvm Those who vote regularly can b and m... others have the whining blocker engaged on my end.

[RCSignals]

Did you know that on or about 28 June of this year, a great American icon was lifted from the national endangered list?

[duhtroll]

That needs a little more fact checking, please.

Better do some more research on that one, particularly the date.


I agree with Brute. Sniping with blanks, indeed. If you think the US had nothing to do with Saddam's rise to power or question our role in the Iran/Iraq war, I'd say you're the one who needs to do some fact checking. I made the assertion. If you intend to prove me wrong, then do so with facts, not gamesay

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915.

And when I put a date with a question mark next to it, it means I'm unsure of the date, not that it matters much. The statement and its implication/effect are true regardless of exactly when it happened. Turns out it was 1948, not 58. Actually, that extra ten years only helps the assertion.

If you're so desperate to prove me wrong, you need to do your own research. I think its much easier for you to sit back and say "nuh-UHHHH . . ."

:rolleyes:

As far as bringing up the past, it is precisely because our leaders do not learn from the past that we continue to repeat past mistakes. And I'm not talking about a president screwing a fat intern (yeah, like he didn't...). I'm talking about something with an actual bearing on people's lives -- like when they are getting killed without reason.

[RCSignals]

As I said "Nope, just let someone else do the digging :)

Not that any of any of this has any relevance to anything at all, especially Scooter"

I don't need to do the research for you, or repeat any research.

the thread is pointless

[duhtroll]

Then I am assuming your trying to point out the supposed errors in said thread is even more so. If you have something to offer other than baseless comments, I'm all ears.


As I said "Nope, just let someone else do the digging :)

Not that any of any of this has any relevance to anything at all, especially Scooter"

I don't need to do the research for you, or repeat any research.

the thread is pointless

[RCSignals]

One man's facts another man's bs. More to the point, how about a better plan forward. I fail to understand the relative value of biased opinions on events past and done. The future is much more important. We are on the door step of World War III and many want to argue the past. Again, one man's opinion. Dennis

If Dennis hadn't said that /\ I may have.

[RCSignals]

Then I am assuming your trying to point out the supposed errors in said thread is even more so. If you have something to offer other than baseless comments, I'm all ears.


Baseless comments? right

If the thread has turned to discuss history, my point was to suggest a deeper study of those two points is required.

Both the creation of Israel and Saddam's rise to power are more complex than presented.

In the context of the thread subject it is all irrelevant though.

[duhtroll]

So, to sum up, your rebuttal consists of "me too," and "go get me more information or I won't listen?" I'm not your history teacher, and you most likely won't read it anyway.

Like I said, baseless. You have nothing to offer except baseless (that is, no origin in fact) criticism of the position that you do not support.

In short, tantamount to "nu-UH."

Offering no facts of your own and merely being contradictory is what's pointless here. Did you watch the Python video?

Those who refuse to learn from history are the ones who get us involved in useless wars. The path forward, as you so eloquently "me too"-ed comes from the past, or we're going in the wrong direction.

Again I say, if you have something useful to share, please do so.


Baseless comments? right

If the thread has turned to discuss history, my point was to suggest a deeper study of those two points is required.

Both the creation of Israel and Saddam's rise to power are more complex than presented.

In the context of the thread subject it is all irrelevant though.

[RCSignals]

So, to sum up, your rebuttal consists of "me too," and "go get me more information or I won't listen?" I'm not your history teacher, and you most likely won't read it anyway.

Like I said, baseless. You have nothing to offer except baseless (that is, no origin in fact) criticism of the position that you do not support.

In short, tantamount to "nu-UH."

Offering no facts of your own and merely being contradictory is what's pointless here. Did you watch the Python video?

Those who refuse to learn from history are the ones who get us involved in useless wars. The path forward, as you so eloquently "me too"-ed comes from the past, or we're going in the wrong direction.

Again I say, if you have something useful to share, please do so.

Baseless is /\ that /\

I'm not the one who needs a history lesson, or a lesson on how to read history.

If you are interested at all, you will do your own research.

[duhtroll]

Now you're into "I know you are but what am I?" Seriously?

Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!

:lol:

How long before you get to "I'm telling mommmmmm?"




Baseless is /\ that /\

I'm not the one who needs a history lesson, or a lesson on how to read history.

If you are interested at all, you will do your own research.

[RCSignals]

Now you're into "I know you are but what am I?" Seriously?

Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!

:lol:

How long before you get to "I'm telling mommmmmm?"

You can't be serious.

[O's Fan Rich]

Here goes nothing....................... .............................. .............................. .............................. .............................. .............................. .........








TRILOGY MAKES THE BEST MARAUDER SUPERCHARGER KIT!!!








Is the thread closed yet?:D:D:D

[O's Fan Rich]

Note that the above post uses the largest font available, while at the same time mentioning a non-vendor AND makes a controversial statement all at the same time.
That's 3 in one and should lead to a lock down of this thread.

You all can thank me later.

[duhtroll]

I'm disappointed that I don't see any boobies. :)

But then RC would just deny they exist.


Note that the above post uses the largest font available, while at the same time mentioning a non-vendor AND makes a controversial statement all at the same time.
That's 3 in one and should lead to a lock down of this thread.

You all can thank me later.

[RCSignals]

I'm disappointed that I don't see any boobies. :)

But then RC would just deny they exist.

You really don't read very well do you. oh well

[RCSignals]

Note that the above post uses the largest font available, while at the same time mentioning a non-vendor AND makes a controversial statement all at the same time.
That's 3 in one and should lead to a lock down of this thread.

You all can thank me later.

I will go one better.

Unban the banned, and the others too.

now that will cause the thread to be locked

[duhtroll]

Seriously, RC, get a clue. You haven't made a point yet about anything -- all you've done is said what I have posted is untrue, with no evidence to support your claim, and then you resort to childish antics because you have no other recourse. You say "its pointless" and then keep posting. Your efforts are the last resort of the truly ignorant, it seems.

Let it go, already.


You really don't read very well do you. oh well

[RCSignals]

Seriously, RC, get a clue. You haven't made a point yet about anything -- all you've done is said what I have posted is untrue, with no evidence to support your claim, and then you resort to childish antics because you have no other recourse. You say "its pointless" and then keep posting. Your efforts are the last resort of the truly ignorant, it seems.

Let it go, already.

once again, you can't be serious.

it isn't me posting childish crap, seems it's you who keeps posting waiting for me to respond.
Get a clue, I'm not interested in proving anything to you.
If you want to know more, have a deeper knowledge of those two 'points' you made, do what you always call for, a little research.

You really haven't read what I've posted, you seem to think you are conducting some sort of debate.

[CBT]

You two need to take a breather and ask "WWSD?" (what would scooter do)

[duhtroll]

You really haven't read what I've posted, you seem to think you are conducting some sort of debate.

You uh, haven't posted anything here, Einstein. All you've said is "you're wrong" with nothing to back it up. Then you say I'm the one that needs to look things up, when you've said nothing on your own. Real easy cop-out for someone who has no clue what he's talking about.

Maybe you should read a book once in a while. It'd give you some insight into the subjects about which you are currently talking out of your a$$.

EDIT: And I might add it's hard for me to have a debate with an unarmed opponent.

[Leadfoot281]

The solution to the loss of troops is to not send them places where they are not needed to protect our country. Let's not start unnecessary wars, as a first step.

The odds are exceptional that those two people would be alive if we had not invaded Iraq.

The odds would be even higher if they had not enlisted in the military in the first place. Maybe you are assuming they didn't know what they were doing when they laced up their COMBAT boots, pulled on the kevlar helmets, and loaded their M16 rifles. Maybe they really didn't have any idea what the military actually does. These two people,did they know the difference between Burger King and the military?


And let's take your analogy one step further. What do you suggest we do with our forces this fall when we run out of rotations for Iraq? Keep sending them anyway? Run a draft? Conscription?

Do you seriously think our servicemen and women have nothing better to do than be in Iraq, as you have implied by your "coal mine" statement? Are our nation's defenses stronger or weaker as a result of our expenditure of resources in Iraq?

You seem to think they have better things to do than be in Iraq. Perhaps you feel that we should just let the Islamo-fascists finish what Hitler started?

Again, it's because we have an administration that feels they have to answer to no one. It's why people like Libby (even though he is a minor player in this scandal) don't ever have to worry about real jail time. It's not about which side of the political scene you're on. It's about how much money you have and who you can pay off.

Who did Clinton "answer to" ? The answer is,of course, America. The voters. If we didn't like him, we wouldn't have voted for him. That's who the President "answers to". He also has to deal with the Judicial and Legislative branches of government in a system called "checks and balances"... Einstein.:P

Making Bush or Cheney or Libby "answer to" the media is shark jumping. The left wing media is NOT a branch of the government. Just because Clintons presidency was a self induced scandal from begining to end (and the media/left wing is still sore about it) doesn't give them the right to go on a witch hunt.

Clintons issues were Clintons issues. Instead they left blamed a "vast right wing conspiracy". Attacking the right is soley about getting even (aka "making them answer to"..). Ask 'Scooter' Libby. Why put a man in jail before his appeal process ran out?

I also noticed your resentment towards people with money. I'm sure scooter enjoyed paying a $250,000 fine, loosing his job, and all the money that he spent going through law school. My tax dollars go in your pocket. Enjoy them.

[RCSignals]

You uh, haven't posted anything here, Einstein. All you've said is "you're wrong" with nothing to back it up. Then you say I'm the one that needs to look things up, when you've said nothing on your own. Real easy cop-out for someone who has no clue what he's talking about.

Maybe you should read a book once in a while. It'd give you some insight into the subjects about which you are currently talking out of your a$$.

EDIT: And I might add it's hard for me to have a debate with an unarmed opponent.


Show me anywhere I've said, used the words "you're wrong". You can't, because I haven't.



All you've offered is insult and derision. But I've come to expect that from you toward anyone you feel isn't 100% behind your point of view.

[duhtroll]

First of all, Hitler was a self-proclaimed Catholic.

Secondly, you are assuming these people were all in combat units. You're also making the grand leap that just because people are in the military, getting them killed for no reason is OK. Criticizing dead people is not a way to score points with anyone. I am sure they signed up in the medical field for the sole purpose of getting killed and not to help anyone.

That's like saying it's the dead guy's fault for driving his car, because there are thousands of auto deaths every year. Real good logic, there.

Thirdly, Bush answers to no one. Not the voters, who are 70% against this war, and not the legislature which is telling him the same thing. There's your main difference between the two. The right to question one's president is a basic one in this country -- one that we have lost with our current president. This administration changes the rules or completely disregards the law when it interferes with their plans.

And for Scooter, he lied. He was caught lying. Apparently it's OK to punish Clinton for that, but not poor Scooter? There are lots of people who are guilty of worse deeds, but this admin. has ensured they will not be prosecuted until at the very least a regime change takes place.

You didn't "notice" a resentment toward people with money. you fabricated one. It's easy to criticize someone if you get to decide what they believe, I suppose. I merely implied that with money comes power. If you have enough money in this country, you are exempt from many of the rules that the rest of use adhere to. You could disagree, but you'd be wrong.

Your tax dollars do not go in my pocket any more than they go right back into your own. Maybe you should learn how tax monies are spent before spouting nonsense.


Who did Clinton "answer to" ? The answer is,of course, America. The voters. If we didn't like him, we wouldn't have voted for him. That's who the President "answers to". He also has to deal with the Judicial and Legislative branches of government in a system called "checks and balances"... Einstein.:P

Making Bush or Cheney or Libby "answer to" the media is shark jumping. The left wing media is NOT a branch of the government. Just because Clintons presidency was a self induced scandal from begining to end (and the media/left wing is still sore about it) doesn't give them the right to go on a witch hunt.

Clintons issues were Clintons issues. Instead they left blamed a "vast right wing conspiracy". Attacking the right is soley about getting even (aka "making them answer to"..). Ask 'Scooter' Libby. Why put a man in jail before his appeal process ran out?

I also noticed your resentment towards people with money. I'm sure scooter enjoyed paying a $250,000 fine, loosing his job, and all the money that he spent going through law school. My tax dollars go in your pocket. Enjoy them.

[duhtroll]

Show me anywhere I've said, used the words "you're wrong". You can't, because I haven't.

So now we're playing the semantics game? You have questioned points I have made saying I "need to do more research" which implies that I am wrong. You have offered no evidence of your own, of course. Sorry you couldn't figure this out.


All you've offered is insult and derision. But I've come to expect that from you toward anyone you feel isn't 100% behind your point of view.

First of all, if all I have done is insult you, then why tell me I need to do more historical research? Were you involved in Israel's founding or Saddam's power struggles?

Poor RC. He got insulted. :bigcry:

Nope. You don't get to play the martyr now. I'm calling your BS and that of others who are just as blind. That's, as you put it, "my point of view."

I've voted Republican more often than I have Democrat in my life. I'm just tired of seeing the same baseless BS appear again and again just because people can't be bothered to look anything up for themselves.

To sum up. Libby is guilty, although not as much as some. Iraq is still a pointless war. And RC needs to read history with some comprehension.

[O's Fan Rich]

Ummmmmm...
Boobies? (.)(.)

[Hotrauder]

Ummmmmm...
Boobies? (.)(.)


I'm with Rich. Duhtroll I will say that you are right on...with your location at least. :lol: Dennis

[oldekid]

:nono:

:argue:

:beer:

[GreekGod]

Here goes nothing....................... .............................. .............................. .............................. .............................. .............................. .........

TRILOGY MAKES THE BEST MARAUDER SUPERCHARGER KIT!!!


Is the thread closed yet?:D:D:D

There, I fixed your bodacious type size, and even if they make the best kit, Whipple has the best supercharger. It says so on their website. And no, it isn't a Lysholm, it is an improved Lysholm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysholm_superchargers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/

[usafsniper]

There is no draft. I signed myself up, as did pretty much everyone in the current military. I'm also educated enough to know about history, and that bad things happen to people in the military...I accept that...as did everyone else who put their name on the dotted line to defend it against all enemies foreign and domestic. I also knew the military was not a democracy, although I have certain rights. When they say go, I go. If I go and die, or am maimed, or have issues for seeing and doing things one would hope to never have to do...I can only blame myself because I made the decision to enlist. If I wanted a job where I would never have to be involved in the potentiality of combat...I'd work at Microsoft or something. I've lost upwards of 40 close friends in my 20 years. I have a troop right now suffering from PTSD...and if you asked him if he regretted his decisions he'd tell you "Hell no". Does he like not being able to sleep? No. Does he like having nightmares? No. But he loves his country...loves his job...and gets back in the turrent and mans his weapon and presses on. There will always be unfortunate deaths, painful memories and shattered lives in the military. If you join up thinking that is not a possiblity, you are a fool and if you are a family member or friend and think the same, you are a fool right along side them. That basic fact has nothing to do at all with politics...it's a job choice that comes with risks. The people currently in the military decided to take that risk, regardless of peace or war, good politician or bad politician, democrat or republican. So don't tell me how the president is responsible for my injuries or issues...it was my choice...and I accept the burden.

[duhtroll]

All that included, it still does not justify this war.

The difference is meaningful vs. meaningless loss of life. If someone can show me the difference the Iraq war has made to the safety of this country (directly) then you may have a point. But there wasn't any benefit to going there in the first place, and still none in being there now.

Not everyone who signs up for military service has a bright future in some other field they are giving up. Some of them do it because it is their best chance to escape the poverty or home situation they are in. You cannot speak for everyone who signs up.

If what you say is made clear to everyone upon joining, they need to change those "Army Strong" commercials.

I'm betting those who signed up for National Guard had not expected to do 2 tours in Iraq.


There is no draft. I signed myself up, as did pretty much everyone in the current military. I'm also educated enough to know about history, and that bad things happen to people in the military...I accept that...as did everyone else who put their name on the dotted line to defend it against all enemies foreign and domestic. I also knew the military was not a democracy, although I have certain rights. When they say go, I go. If I go and die, or am maimed, or have issues for seeing and doing things one would hope to never have to do...I can only blame myself because I made the decision to enlist. If I wanted a job where I would never have to be involved in the potentiality of combat...I'd work at Microsoft or something. I've lost upwards of 40 close friends in my 20 years. I have a troop right now suffering from PTSD...and if you asked him if he regretted his decisions he'd tell you "Hell no". Does he like not being able to sleep? No. Does he like having nightmares? No. But he loves his country...loves his job...and gets back in the turrent and mans his weapon and presses on. There will always be unfortunate deaths, painful memories and shattered lives in the military. If you join up thinking that is not a possiblity, you are a fool and if you are a family member or friend and think the same, you are a fool right along side them. That basic fact has nothing to do at all with politics...it's a job choice that comes with risks. The people currently in the military decided to take that risk, regardless of peace or war, good politician or bad politician, democrat or republican. So don't tell me how the president is responsible for my injuries or issues...it was my choice...and I accept the burden.

[usafsniper]

All that included, it still does not justify this war.

The difference is meaningful vs. meaningless loss of life. If someone can show me the difference the Iraq war has made to the safety of this country (directly) then you may have a point. But there wasn't any benefit to going there in the first place, and still none in being there now.

Not everyone who signs up for military service has a bright future in some other field they are giving up. Some of them do it because it is their best chance to escape the poverty or home situation they are in. You cannot speak for everyone who signs up.

If what you say is made clear to everyone upon joining, they need to change those "Army Strong" commercials.

I'm betting those who signed up for National Guard had not expected to do 2 tours in Iraq.


I agree with a lot of what you say...just saying our destiny is in our own hands when we volunteer for a job of this nature. No one can know the road politics will travel 10 years down the road. We all join up and hope for the best, but know it could be the worst. I was in the National Guard too for 5 years during college...and took the same oath of enlistment. You cannot enter this job expecting perfect politics to protect you from a bullet, or an IED, or circumstance. And you are right...meaningful and meaningless take on huge proportions at this point. My opinion...if we are going to Iraq...we should be in every country facing tyrannical, homicidal lunatics as leaders. We have that authority by Divine right...to make the world a better place for all peoples...not stand by and watch it deterioriate until all that is left that is good and useful is at the end of our own borders.

[Leadfoot281]

First of all, Hitler was a self-proclaimed Catholic.

Are you suggesting that cocoa nuts migrate? You at least have to realise that both Hitler and radical Islam have very similar goals. Fighting Hitler was a worthy cause, right?

Secondly, you are assuming these people were all in combat units. You're also making the grand leap that just because people are in the military, getting them killed for no reason is OK. Criticizing dead people is not a way to score points with anyone. I am sure they signed up in the medical field for the sole purpose of getting killed and not to help anyone.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to think that fighting against Hilters idealology was OK then, but not now. I never criticized the dead. Everyone in the military is trained in weapon use. This something you obviously don't know. You also assumed these people didn't know what they were getting into.

That's like saying it's the dead guy's fault for driving his car, because there are thousands of auto deaths every year. Real good logic, there.

Thirdly, Bush answers to no one. Not the voters, who are 70% against this war, and not the legislature which is telling him the same thing. There's your main difference between the two. The right to question one's president is a basic one in this country -- one that we have lost with our current president. This administration changes the rules or completely disregards the law when it interferes with their plans.

Clinton was trying to win the polital equivilent of American Idol.(aka govern by polling numbers). Bush is governing by his own moral compase, doing what he feels is right for the country, as the COMMANDER IN CHEIF. Is either one against the law? No.

And for Scooter, he lied. He was caught lying. Apparently it's OK to punish Clinton for that, but not poor Scooter? There are lots of people who are guilty of worse deeds, but this admin. has ensured they will not be prosecuted until at the very least a regime change takes place.

Clinton never got punished for something he didn't do... Scooter got tripped up in a bogus investigation that should have been over before it started (who leaked Valerie Plame). It was a "he said, she said" deal and one was lying. I hear Valeries book deal is doing well.

You didn't "notice" a resentment toward people with money. you fabricated one. It's easy to criticize someone if you get to decide what they believe, I suppose. I merely implied that with money comes power. If you have enough money in this country, you are exempt from many of the rules that the rest of use adhere to. You could disagree, but you'd be wrong.

Does this mean you DON'T resent people with money getting away with stuff? Maybe you should look up the word "fabricated" as well as "irony". I got 'Nifonged' a few years ago and I'm loaded. I disagree with your assertion that money brings power. Don't believe me though. Just ask Martha Stewart, Paris Hilton or Mike Nifongs victums.

Your tax dollars do not go in my pocket any more than they go right back into your own. Maybe you should learn how tax monies are spent before spouting nonsense.

Last time I checked, teachers ARE on my payroll. You are a teacher, correct?

[RCSignals]

Well said Robert. Many of those who have never served will not understand.

The National Guard does not exist to allow civilians to simply play soldier. Anyone joining and taking the oath of enlistment understands that there is always a chance of being thrown into the fight.

[RCSignals]

And RC needs to read history with some comprehension.


Don't make the assumption that I haven't read history with comprehension, where I've been, what I've done, experienced. or what I know.

Poor Duhtroll, still hasn't taken the time to look up in depth that of which he thinks he is all knowledgeable. I'm not going to do it for him.

[oldekid]

:sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy:

Can someone wake me when this is finally over?

:beer:

[BruteForce]

:sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy:

Can someone wake me when this is finally over?

:beer:

WAKE UP!

:D

It was over before it started. Its always been W's fault. It just takes some people longer to hear the message.

[duhtroll]

1) Hitler had a vast array of resources. The people we are currently fighting in Iraq can only fight us because we are within arm's reach. Imagine if we spent the equivalent time and money reinforcing our own borders and intel, rather than invading Iraq. No one would be able to touch us, and we wouldn't even need to live in a police state.

2) Do you really think National Guard troops expected to go on several tours in Iraq? Do you think they were told this upon enlisting, or do you think they were told "that'll never happen, so don't worry." Be careful, because I have one of them over to dinner tonight who says otherwise. And yes, I know they are all "trained" to work some types of weapons in basic.

You're right -- I am a teacher. There have been shootings in schools. I knew this upon "signing up." So if I get killed in a school shooting, you are going to say it's my fault since I should know better? That guy working at Burger King you mentioned - if he gets stabbed in a robbery attempt, it's his fault, right? After all, there have been crimes at Burger King in the past and he knew it.

The difference here is that my boss doesn't send me looking for the bomb when there's a bomb threat because it would do no good for me or the school. Our current CIC sent these troops over to Iraq when it does not help the security of our country.

The difference between you and I is that I blame the leaders, and you seem to be blaming the people getting killed. Tell that to the widow -- I bet you'd have the guts to say to her face "hey, your husband knew he could get killed, so quit yer whining already!"

4) Do yourself a favor and look up where money for public schools comes from. Texas money to Iowa? Good luck with that one. I suppose those firefighters and police forces you mentioned earlier don't have any right to disagree with you because "you pay their salaries." Try that line the next time you get stopped by an LEO.

"Your payroll." Heh.

5) Scooter lied. It's pretty obvious. I guess you're saying that's OK. Scooter got hit because the admin. won't let anyone punish the real guilty parties. He covered for them as their fall guy, and he was going to pay for it until Bush commuted his sentence.

6) So you say powerful, wealthy people don't get away with anything? You named three, two of which got essentially a slap on the wrist. 23 whole days in jail? That's the best example you can give? She very nearly didn't even serve those!

All I have to say is "OJ," and there are dozens more powerful/wealthy people who never have to answer for anything, or even follow the rules. Bush and Cheney come to mind. Heck, they even get to change the laws when it suits them. What a deal!

How many poor people do you know being elected Senator? President? Are you going to say that wealthy lobbies don't control our legislature?

If you're going to whine about where your taxes are spent, there are lots of countries to move to that don't require all these taxes.


Last time I checked, teachers ARE on my payroll. You are a teacher, correct?

[duhtroll]

It's pretty obvious what you don't know. You just sit back and say things like "you need to look that up."

I did look it up and posted what the facts are. You refuse to, which is why you remain ignorant. Until you put something of value into play here, your opinion is worth about diddly/squat. I'm still waiting for something of substance from you, but I don't expect anything.

If the thread is so pointless, then either contribute or get out. At least I am discussing things, not heckling from the sidelines (and incorrectly I might add).


Don't make the assumption that I haven't read history with comprehension, where I've been, what I've done, experienced. or what I know.

Poor Duhtroll, still hasn't taken the time to look up in depth that of which he thinks he is all knowledgeable. I'm not going to do it for him.

[Bigdogjim]

Some one tell me what this has to with Mercury Marauders?

[Bluerauder]

2) Do you really think National Guard troops expected to go on several tours in Iraq? Do you think they were told this upon enlisting, or do you think they were told "that'll never happen, so don't worry." Be careful, because I have one of them over to dinner tonight who says otherwise. And yes, I know they are all "trained" to work some types of weapons in basic.
OK ... I'll address this ^^^^ one. And be careful, 'cause I am retired US Army and eat dinner every night.

So ... anyone who has enlisted in the Army National Guard or the US Army Reserve in the past 10 years ... since Bosnia/Herzogovina fully understands the risk of deployment. Some specialties like military police, engineers, intelligence, civil affairs, and others are even more in demand and cycle through deployments rather frequently within the established limitations.

The same is happening to the active duty force. The operational tempo of rotations to hot spots around the globe is putting severe pressure on the current size of the force. Thus, there is increase reliance on the ARNG and USAR. The same hold true for the other services.

Years ago (before the Gulf War in 1991), people would just join the Guard or Reserves for the training, experience, two weeks a year and one weekend per month to get a supplemental paycheck. Things have changed drastically since then.

If there is anyone enlisting recently (or within the past 10 years) that doesn't understand this, then they are just not keeping up with current events or are very gullible people.

Personally, I think all of the services need more force structure to do the job that has been thrust upon them. Congress is unwilling to foot the bill to do so. Therefore, the Active, Guard, and Reserve force will bear a greater burden of deployments and deployments will keep getting longer until something breaks badly. We are fast approaching that point; but I see very few of the current crops of leaders willing to Fall on their Sword for more troops. They can't have it both ways.

Okey Doke .....

[CBT]

Some one tell me what this has to with Mercury Marauders?
Nothing. That's why it's in 'The Lounge'.... The Lounge All OFF-TOPIC, marauder unrelated posts must go here.

[duhtroll]

And I agree with you, but people my age who had been enlisted for years received lots of pressure to stay in when this whole thing started, and were basically lied to when they were told they weren't going.

And I also agree that more funds are needed, but these are funds that could easily be had by removing our current expenditures.

EDIT: It bothers me even more that there will not be the necessary care for vets when they return from combat, like Josh Omvig (who was a student in my middle school classes). His name is on the bill if you're interested in looking it up. But hey that's another tax on the American people and we all know "taxes are bad . . . "


OK ... I'll address this ^^^^ one. And be careful, 'cause I am retired US Army and eat dinner every night.

So ... anyone who has enlisted in the Army National Guard or the US Army Reserve in the past 10 years ... since Bosnia/Herzogovina fully understands the risk of deployment. Some specialties like military police, engineers, intelligence, civil affairs, and others are even more in demand and cycle through deployments rather frequently within the established limitations.

The same is happening to the active duty force. The operational tempo of rotations to hot spots around the globe is putting severe pressure on the current size of the force. Thus, there is increase reliance on the ARNG and USAR. The same hold true for the other services.

Years ago (before the Gulf War in 1991), people would just join the Guard or Reserves for the training, experience, two weeks a year and one weekend per month to get a supplemental paycheck. Things have changed drastically since then.

If there is anyone enlisting recently (or within the past 10 years) that doesn't understand this, then they are just not keeping up with current events or are very gullible people.

Personally, I think all of the services need more force structure to do the job that has been thrust upon them. Congress is unwilling to foot the bill to do so. Therefore, the Active, Guard, and Reserve force will bear a greater burden of deployments and deployments will keep getting longer until something breaks badly. We are fast approaching that point; but I see very few of the current crops of leaders willing to Fall on their Sword for more troops. They can't have it both ways.

Okey Doke .....

[Bluerauder]

And I also agree that more funds are needed, but these are funds that could easily be had by removing our current expenditures.

EDIT: It bothers me even more that there will not be the necessary care for vets when they return from combat, like Josh Omvig (who was a student in my middle school classes). His name is on the bill if you're interested in looking it up. But hey that's another tax on the American people and we all know "taxes are bad . . . "
Everyone was shocked when the story about Walter Reed broke revealing that the hospital facility was in bad need of repair, renovation and upgrade. That kinda reminds me of the police chief in "Casablanca" who was "... shocked, just shocked" to find out that there was gambling on the premises. It ain't just Walter Reed .... you could find the same things in many of the military hospitals where the facility needs attention but the care is very good. Walter Reed and Bethesda are among the best ... but their buildings suck. DoD has been deferring these expenses for years and in some case decades and using the Operations & Maintenance Account (OMA in the Army) to pay for current efforts. Congress won't bump up the DoD budget except on a "Supplemental" request that gets cut down anyway.

But that is only part of the story. The Defense Budget for all four services is but a very small slice of the overall Federal Budget. In fact, it is right now at the proportionately lowest share of Fed spending since the 60s and 70s.

Where the bulk of the money is going is to the so called "entitlements". These entitlements are eating our lunch. Either the pie gets larger or someone takes a hard look at where we spend on Domestic Programs. I'll cut it off there 'cause that's enough said .....

[oldekid]

duhtroll, you have aged during this thread. Earlier today, I would swear you were 4. Now you are 36.

Or. . . . did I really fall asleep, like I wanted to? ;)

[Leadfoot281]

OK, I quit.

'Troll, if you think it's better to lock your doors and windows than lock up the bad guys outside your home, that's your perogative.

I enjoy debate. It's fun and can be very thought provoking. What I don't like is arguing and name calling... Einstein. I especially don't like having words put in my mouth. This thread was very fun until then.

I joined the Army during the first half of the gulf war in 1990. Even as a generator mechanic I knew the dangers. That part was obvious long before I strapped on my kevlar. In fact, the dangers were well known to me as a kid while watching my green plastic army men get blown up by firecrackers.

YOU blamed the president for the deaths of the three soldiers you knew....then you twisted up my words, making it sound like I actually blame the soldiers! I find that, as a former soldier, to be unconscionable.

I quit.

Oh well, you have a tough job teaching in, what, Iowa...? There's a hot bed of violence! You must feel just like a regular bad a$$ patroling the sunni triangle! Good for you. Maybe one day you can sit around the local VFW and tell them some Iwo Jima veterans all about the horrors of teaching kids in Iowa. Make sure to buy them a round or two with my money. After all, they fought and won the same war we are in right now.
:beer:

[teamrope]

When I'm elected President, Marauder owners can all do whatever the heck you want, I'll pardon yous.

You got my vote. :beer:

[teamrope]

Dude, that was almost 10 years ago. Chill. :)



So was this.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardons_controver sy)

and these..... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bil l_Clinton)

[duhtroll]

I have to correct you there --

Wiki the federal budget allocations for 2007 to know that:

1) Military spending is still our greatest expenditure
2) It's still going up
3) We spend more on defense as a country than the next 14 countries on the list combined
4) Entitlements only amount to a fraction of the total military expenses.

In the budget itself, the military is still the highest single allocation. Sure, if you add up social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment and welfare, veterans benefits (the "entitlements") they would exceed the budgeted amounts for military spending.

The problem is that military spending far exceeds what's in the budget.

Really, social security should not be included in this list because it has its own funding source (for now anyway). If we remove SS, we also don't count that part of the budget.

I'm not the least bit opposed to veterans' benefits as they deserve them, but this also should be considered military spending to some degree. The more we spend on the military, the more veterans' benefits we will be paying, natch.

From wiki - highlights mine

2007 Military Budget

* $699 billion

U.S. Military Budget - DoD Base Spending: The U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) has the single largest budget of any government agency in the discretionary budget. Last year (FY 2006), Defense Department base budget expenditures were $411 billion, nearly half of net discretionary spending. This year (FY 2007), it has increased to $430 billion, still about half. Next year (FY 2008), it is projected to grow to $481 billion, or 52%. This so-called base budget is the basic level needed to keep the DoD in readiness.

U.S. Military Budget - War on Terror Base Spending : The War on Terror (WoT) incurs additional costs by other departments. When added to the DoD base spending, the amount comes to: $474 billion in FY 2006, which is 56% of net discretionary spending, $505 billion in FY 2007, and $554 billion in FY 2008, nearly 60% of discretionary spending. Total base budget for all non DoD/WoT departments is around $370 billion, which stays at the same funding level for all three fiscal years.

FY 2006 Supplemental Funding : The Defense Department base budget also does not include “one time only” costs attributable to the War on Terror, which are submitted as Supplemental Funding. In FY 2006, an additional $153 billion in Supplemental Funding was added to the base budget - the War on Terror received $120 billion, while $33 billion went primarily for Hurricane Katrina. As a result, 60% of last year's discretionary spending went to DoD/WoT.

FY 2007 Supplemental Funding : For FY 2007, $70 billion has already been approved, while the President’s FY 2008 Budget requests an additional $102 billion. If approved by Congress, total FY 2007 spending for DoD/WoT would be $673 billion, or 64% of the net discretionary budget. FY 2008 Budget Proposal : For FY 2008, the President has requested the following: The Defense Department Base Budget - $481 billion. WoT(non-DoD) Base Budget - $73 billion. Supplemental Funding for WoT - $145 billion. Total requested Dod/WoT spending is $699 billion, or 65% of total net Discretionary spending.

Source: OMB FY 2008 President’s Budget Charts and Tables.

Now That You Understand the U.S. Defense Budget, What Does It Mean?: In summary, the total DoD/WoT spending goes from $600 billion to $700 billion in FY 2006-FY 2008, and from 60-65% of total net discretionary spending. The President and the Department of Defense have said this is the minimum they need to continue to wage the War in Iraq and the War on Terror.

The amount that the government must borrow, either from the public in the form of bonds held by the Security Trust Fund, or by selling securities to other entities will add to the total public debt as of September 2006 (end of the Fiscal Year 2006), 8.5 trillion.

So on top of what's budgeted we have another 8.5 trillion to pay off, and the war's not close to being over yet as far as costs go. Who knows what the final cost will be - maybe twice this? Maybe only 10 trillion? Either way, it doesn't look good financially.


Everyone was shocked when the story about Walter Reed broke revealing that the hospital facility was in bad need of repair, renovation and upgrade. That kinda reminds me of the police chief in "Casablanca" who was "... shocked, just shocked" to find out that there was gambling on the premises. It ain't just Walter Reed .... you could find the same things in many of the military hospitals where the facility needs attention but the care is very good. Walter Reed and Bethesda are among the best ... but their buildings suck. DoD has been deferring these expenses for years and in some case decades and using the Operations & Maintenance Account (OMA in the Army) to pay for current efforts. Congress won't bump up the DoD budget except on a "Supplemental" request that gets cut down anyway.

But that is only part of the story. The Defense Budget for all four services is but a very small slice of the overall Federal Budget. In fact, it is right now at the proportionately lowest share of Fed spending since the 60s and 70s.

Where the bulk of the money is going is to the so called "entitlements". These entitlements are eating our lunch. Either the pie gets larger or someone takes a hard look at where we spend on Domestic Programs. I'll cut it off there 'cause that's enough said .....

[duhtroll]

OK, I quit.

'Troll, if you think it's better to lock your doors and windows than lock up the bad guys outside your home, that's your perogative.

That's an exceedingly simplistic explanation. Why fight people who can only fight if we go into their own backyard? They don't have the resources to come here.

See previous post. If we spent 8.5 TRILLION on domestic defense, you don't think that would make us any safer? It certainly hasn't made us any safer by spending it in Iraq, which was my point there.

If some group or country is a legitimate threat to the US I'm all for stomping on their necks until they turn blue.


I enjoy debate. It's fun and can be very thought provoking. What I don't like is arguing and name calling... Einstein. I especially don't like having words put in my mouth. This thread was very fun until then.

Haven't called you names TMK. Of course I've insinuated that some of the conclusions you have reached are downright farcical, but I still think that. If you look at our discourse alone you'd be surprised to find that I have been less offensive that you have.

And I'm not putting any words in your mouth. Several times I asked you if this is what you meant by some of your "leaps of logic." You get to speak for yourself, unless I'm somehow hacking your username. If you go back and read again you'll see what I mean.


YOU blamed the president for the deaths of the three soldiers you knew....then you twisted up my words, making it sound like I actually blame the soldiers! I find that, as a former soldier, to be unconscionable.

OK, who do you blame, then? If you intend to blame the people we are fighting for our deaths, you need to justify to the families of the dead why we are fighting them, when they do not have the resources to fight us "over here" (as Bush would put it).

I'd put odds that there is a 99% chance (or greater) that these three people would still be alive if we had not invaded Iraq. That decision came to Bush. It's his responsibility, and even he knows it. He must answer for it, as its part of HIS job.



Oh well, you have a tough job teaching in, what, Iowa...? There's a hot bed of violence! You must feel just like a regular bad a$$ patroling the sunni triangle! Good for you. Maybe one day you can sit around the local VFW and tell them some Iwo Jima veterans all about the horrors of teaching kids in Iowa. Make sure to buy them a round or two with my money. After all, they fought and won the same war we are in right now.
:beer:

Who is doing the insulting here, again? I suppose if you don't have a point to make you can be bitter.

For the record, do you think that any of the high-profile school shootings took place in a "hot bed of violence" as you put it? If they were expected then they probably wouldn't have happened.

I'll say this one last time. Your money goes to schools in your state. I am not paid by the federal government. Once again I see resentment for paying taxes. There are places you could live that would relieve you of that burden.