Go see "Sicko"

[Vortex]

Just saw this today. Forget what you might have heard about Mike Moore previously, just go see the movie. I promise you wont regret it. Anybody who has ever dealt with an HMO or had a problem with a "pre existing condition" should have to see this movie. In fact, I think everyone over 18 should see this.

[Aren Jay]

Methinks Mike left out the bad parts of our Canadian Health care or the British where friends of mine have died waiting for things like dialisys.

Not all is rosy up here or across the pond.

[RCSignals]

Exactly.

Remember not everything from Moore is what he makes it appear to be, and what he presents always has a powerful impact.
Always ask yourself what he has left out, and then go look for it.

[O's Fan Rich]

Propaganda films have been around for over a century now. Before that it was the stage plays that were used for infiltrating the mind. Music too has played a large part in the mis-education of the masses.
Michael Moore simply follows the same path. Reality apparently means nothing to him.
Look into this topic and ask yourself, "With all the screw-ups that Government controlled programs regularly produce ( how about the VA hospitals?) would I truly want the Govenrment deciding on my personal healthcare?"
Ever wonder why the politicians have a retirement and benefit program seperate from Social Security? They have the very same program that Pres. Bush wanted us regular people to be able to have.... but they voted it down. Interesting, it's good for tehm, but not us commoners. Could the same happen with healthcare controlled by the Government? Oh... that's right politicians always look out for the little guy.


Michael Moore is simply making green on the fears of people.

[Logan]

Frankly, as a canuck living in the states, I can say that yes, the vast majority of his statements are true from both what I've observed and as a Canadian. But you do have to listen for a couple of the zingers that fly out that are easy to miss. One of the folks he interviews talks about the priority treatment schedules in Canada which do indeed suck.

My sister damn near died waiting for a gall bladder operation, only one operational Operating Room, and people kept coming in with more serious issues than hers, so she was pretty much left until it was near life or death for her.

My other sister had to wait 10 months for an MRI.

But they do a fairly reasonable job of managing that priority, as annoying as it might be to the end user.

So, like Diablo says, it ain't all rosy and for me, I'm completely okay as our company is entirely self-insured and we've top tier coverage for everything, but yes, if I had less than what I've got, I'd be concerned.

Hell, a few years ago, I had to fly my mother back to Canada and have her taken straight to a Calgary Hospital after she broke her ankle, her insurance companies screwed her over, denying treatment, etc to the point that she couldn't work, lost her job and ended up losing her house here in the US.

Flew her back to Canada, she got immediate proper treatment for her ankle, was up and about in 6 weeks and is now, back working... in Canada.

So, if you're really well insured and don't get sick or have issues, yep, pretty cool down here. But if you're not well insured, or your insurance company decides to screw you, you're hosed.

At least at the end of the day, I still have my Canuck Citzenship and a few hour plane ride to rely on if I ever need it.

But Rich, It isn't so much a issue of the government controlling healthcare as much as it is the citizens expectation of proper healthcare that drives everything. Yes, the government constantly tries to dick with the health care system and yes our taxes are higher in canada (drastically so), but there's always an ebb and flow to it. Those who screw with healthcare too much end up driven from office.

Ultimately, if they tried to take socialized medicine away from Canadians, you'd have a friggin revolution on your hands, it's engrained in the culture as much as apple pie is down here.

Besides, his underlying point is absolutely valid. Every other major 1st world country has socialized medicine and while it does have it's issues, everyone is covered and taken care of. Not so here, people are indeed left to rot on the street if you can't pay up.

[Vortex]

Like I said, I highly recommend you go see the movie and then tell me if you think it was propaganda or whatever. I will differ with the comment above on VA healthcare. As a veteran, I believe the VA healthcare system is actually quite effective. It is well run and generally delivers quality care to eligible veterans. Many confuse the VA system with the recent events in the news about our returning veterans at Walter Reed, a hospital not in the VA system. Blame that mess on DoD. Anyway, regardless how you come down on the issue, its good to discuss it and I think the movie brings up lots of good points about the present system in the US. Your opinion may change if your health insurance tries to weasel out of providing treatment one day.

[Dr Caleb]

Ultimately, if they tried to take socialized medicine away from Canadians, you'd have a friggin revolution on your hands, it's engrained in the culture as much as apple pie is down here.

Besides, his underlying point is absolutely valid. Every other major 1st world country has socialized medicine and while it does have it's issues, everyone is covered and taken care of. Not so here, people are indeed left to rot on the street if you can't pay up.

^^ What he said. You could no more take away our healthcare (although some are trying!) than you could suffrage from women.

No matter what you think of Mr. Moore, go see the film. Remember, it's just a film, and Mr. Moore's 'agenda' is the well being of everyone.

He does gloss over many things in the film, but the whole point is 'should your health be decided by those who see your health as costing them profits'.

And remember, when F 9/11 came out, the US Administration was on top of the polls, and Mr. Moore was widely criticized for his stance. Now that the administration has sunk pretty far in the polls, Mr. Moore looks like he may have had a point.

I suppose it depends on where you live in Canada as to how wait times are. 9 Years ago, my mother had to wait 6 months for an MRI to diagnose her lung cancer. I don't think an earlier diagnosis would have changed anything. People talk of wait times to see their family physician, but I can see mine today if I like. I know if I get in a car accident, I'll see an ER doctor inside a few minutes. If I need a life saving procedure, it'll be immediate. If I want knee surgery, I may have to use a cane for a few months. Since we've been running surpluses Federally and Provincially for the last few years, things have really turned around.

There is a huge backlog of surgeons, mainly because we train them, then they head south for the better paycheques. One super point in the film is that Doctors in the UK get paid based on the health of their patients - a concept that seems so right. If they get patients to lose weight, or stop smoking - they get paid more. Such a cool concept.

'Socialized Medicine' is nothing to be scared of. You already have 'Socialized law enforcement' and 'socialized fire departments', and those seem to do pretty well, right? By all standards there are, Canada the UK and France all have better healthcare than the US. We live longer, and it costs us less to be healthier. Don't be scared of that.

And, as a little aside - Tommy Douglas, the guy who started the socialized healthcare in Canada was recently named the #1 most important Canadian of all time. His daughter married Donald Sutherland, so his grandson Kiever Sutherland, plays 'Jack Bauer' on TV. Don't mess with Jack.

[oldekid]

Very well stated Dr Caleb.

:beer:

[Logan]

Step 1. Force conversion of US Healthcare system from For-Profit, Privately run, to Non-profit, privately run.

...but that'll never happen without government intervention or all out revolution...

[Dr Caleb]

Very well stated Dr Caleb.

:beer:

Thanks. From the heart!

If anyone doesn't want to 'waste their money' seeing it, it is available for free on many download sites.

If you're concerned it's 'stealing', here is Mr. Moore's permission to watch it for free.

Quote: "Well, I don’t agree with the copyright laws and I don’t have a problem with people downloading the movie and sharing it with people. As long they’re not doing it to make a profit off it, as long as they’re not, you know, trying to make a profit off my labor. I would oppose that. But um, you know I do quite well and I um…I don’t know, I make these books and movies and TV shows because I want things to change, so the more people that get to see them the better, and um, so I’m, I’m happy when that happens,"

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/91876A6A-9C01-4FC5-B8D9-EE5824E16176/

[RCSignals]

Health care in Canada varies widely from Province to Province, and believe me it is not all about the patient.

Doctors and Nurses leave Canada not for a better paycheck, but to work in a better health system under better working conditions, with better equipment and support.
US hospitals are full of Canadian Nurses and Doctors.

Logan technically as a Canadian living out of the country, you are no longer entitled to Canadian healthcare. Citizen or not.

[RCSignals]

Thanks. From the heart!

If anyone doesn't want to 'waste their money' seeing it, it is available for free on many download sites.

If you're concerned it's 'stealing', here is Mr. Moore's permission to watch it for free.

Quote: "Well, I don’t agree with the copyright laws and I don’t have a problem with people downloading the movie and sharing it with people. As long they’re not doing it to make a profit off it, as long as they’re not, you know, trying to make a profit off my labor. I would oppose that. But um, you know I do quite well and I um…I don’t know, I make these books and movies and TV shows because I want things to change, so the more people that get to see them the better, and um, so I’m, I’m happy when that happens,"

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/91876A6A-9C01-4FC5-B8D9-EE5824E16176/

That's actually funny from Moore. He also earlier made statements to the contrary, and that tehre was a big 'conspiracy' against him in making his movie available on the internet.

Smart marketing, he may welll be the one who 'put it out there'

Moore does it all for the money, don't kid yourself.

[Mad4Macs]

6 months? 9 months? For an MRI?
I've only got average insurance, and I had my MRI completed within 6 DAYS of my injury.
If what Moore is pushing is what you guys are describing, then I want NO PART of it.

[RCSignals]

6 months? 9 months? For an MRI?
I've only got average insurance, and I had my MRI completed within 6 DAYS of my injury.
If what Moore is pushing is what you guys are describing, then I want NO PART of it.

Waits can be even longer in Britain.

[Mad4Macs]

Waits can be even longer in Britain.

No THANKS.
When I blew out my knee, I was completely, utterly crippled and in a WHOLE lotta pain.
I saw a surgeon within 24 hours, was x-rayed that same day, but had to wait until the following week for the MRI, as everything was closed on Christmas.

[oldekid]

Moore does it all for the money, don't kid yourself.Yes, very much like the drug companies, the insurance companies and Ann Coulter do. We all want to earn a living. Some just go about it a little differently than you and I do.

I'll give him credit for at least making us think.

[Todd]

^^ What he said. You could no more take away our healthcare (although some are trying!) than you could suffrage from women.

No matter what you think of Mr. Moore, go see the film. Remember, it's just a film, and Mr. Moore's 'agenda' is the well being of everyone.

He does gloss over many things in the film, but the whole point is 'should your health be decided by those who see your health as costing them profits'.

And remember, when F 9/11 came out, the US Administration was on top of the polls, and Mr. Moore was widely criticized for his stance. Now that the administration has sunk pretty far in the polls, Mr. Moore looks like he may have had a point.

I suppose it depends on where you live in Canada as to how wait times are. 9 Years ago, my mother had to wait 6 months for an MRI to diagnose her lung cancer. I don't think an earlier diagnosis would have changed anything. People talk of wait times to see their family physician, but I can see mine today if I like. I know if I get in a car accident, I'll see an ER doctor inside a few minutes. If I need a life saving procedure, it'll be immediate. If I want knee surgery, I may have to use a cane for a few months. Since we've been running surpluses Federally and Provincially for the last few years, things have really turned around.

There is a huge backlog of surgeons, mainly because we train them, then they head south for the better paycheques. One super point in the film is that Doctors in the UK get paid based on the health of their patients - a concept that seems so right. If they get patients to lose weight, or stop smoking - they get paid more. Such a cool concept.

'Socialized Medicine' is nothing to be scared of. You already have 'Socialized law enforcement' and 'socialized fire departments', and those seem to do pretty well, right? By all standards there are, Canada the UK and France all have better healthcare than the US. We live longer, and it costs us less to be healthier. Don't be scared of that.

And, as a little aside - Tommy Douglas, the guy who started the socialized healthcare in Canada was recently named the #1 most important Canadian of all time. His daughter married Donald Sutherland, so his grandson Kiever Sutherland, plays 'Jack Bauer' on TV. Don't mess with Jack.


I may go see the film Sicko. I did not, and will not watch Moore's 9/11 film as it is more political than I can stand. But this is something that I can probably take with a grain of salt, so to say.

Dr. Caleb, Although I don't know enough to speak intelligently about about socialized medicine, it's history, and where it is and has been used and to what ends; I want to remind you and others that the Police and Fire Departments are handled at the local level and can adjust and be managed more closely.

Where I think a lot of people worry about true socialized medicine is that it is handled by the federal government. They are at WAY to high a level to really address the needs of the people and handle the details. WAY to much red tape for something as important and volatile as healthcare.



My general opinion of socialized medicine is that it is a horrible idea. Just because of some of the reasons already stated.

Waiting lists to get required care. The examples above speak for themselves.
Much, Much higher taxes to pay for it. Whether you use their services or not.
Many pay cash for services and/or come to the US and pay for it here. In the mean time they are still paying the super high taxes with no gain.Socialized medicine is, in my mind, another entitlement program that as said previously, once it is engrained in the people we will never get rid of it. Whether it really works or not.


And people also seem to confuse 'health care' with 'medical insurance'.

Insurance is a gamble in any of its applications. You buy car insurance in the event of something bad happening. You buy home owners insurance in the event of something bad happening. You buy life insurance in the event of something bad happening. (with the exception of auto insurance on financed autos or some states that require minimum coverage, and financed homes of course requiring the insurance by the lender)


Insurance is not, and should not, be an entitlement program. NO ONE on the face of this great country should be, or is, denied medical care. The absolute greatest percentage of hospitals and doctors will work out payment plans for people without insurance (poor, rich, and everywhere in between), and clinics that are funded by private organizations that offer free routine and non-emergent care. Many of the hospitals and doctors will also write off all or most of the care costs for people with no means to pay.

[Todd]

PS If we really wanted reform in the health insurance arena, we would demand equitable pricing for services for people paying cash and those with insurance.

For instance, I was told by imaging center I went to that a cash patient would pay approx $1200 for the MRI I had done. But the same service cost my insurance company over $4000. Why not just charge the insurance company the same price? The insurance company could then lower their prices, the insurance buyer wins with lower costs, the insurance company wins because prices would be lower and more people could afford their policies, and the imaging center wins by getting the same amount of money as they expected from a given customer in the first place. But with potential for more customers.

[Dr Caleb]

No THANKS.
When I blew out my knee, I was completely, utterly crippled and in a WHOLE lotta pain.
I saw a surgeon within 24 hours, was x-rayed that same day, but had to wait until the following week for the MRI, as everything was closed on Christmas.

Watch the movie. MRI wait times are FUD. Like I said, years ago, they were a problem. They aren't anymore.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/12/19/WaitTimes_051219.html

[O's Fan Rich]

I obviously no way too little at add anything to this conversation.
All I know this for sure, on November 12, 2005, If I had had to wait even 15 minutes longer for treatment, I'd be dead. And by now some other guy would be pleasuring my wife, living high on the hog off my life insurance.
Ha... good medical care screwed him over for sure!!

I have had excellent treatment for all my medical issues.

[ParkRanger]

Step 1. Force conversion of US Healthcare system from For-Profit, Privately run, to Non-profit, privately run.

...but that'll never happen without government intervention or all out revolution...

1st - Stop the huge influence of donations by pharmaceuticals and insurance companies that buy politicians and air time.

PR :burnout:

[sailsmen]

Here in the 4th World my mother and her husband both injured their knees, got an MRI, saw an Ortho and got the results in a week. Both are on our gov't paid program. This happened 2 weeks ago.

Had we lived in the UK both my parents would be dead, having been diagnosed with cancer in 1996 and 1998. They are both alive, living active lives.

The Urologists who operated on my father practised in England for 7 years.

I lived in the England for 6 months and was told do not go to hospital.

Several years ago my client delivered to Cuba a barge load of donated medical supplies. I can assure you the average Cuban never saw them.

No system is perfect and we can all talk about the horror stories. We can also talk about all the miracles.

I am certain of one thing our standard of health care will drop if our government takes over our healthcare for everyone except elected officials and their families.

I am a firm beleiver in the free market. Having seen non profits go profits where my family worked I agree w/ Logan require Hospitals to be non-profits.

I beleive it was Ted Koppel who found 50 out right lies in Moore's 451.

[rumble]

Methinks Mike left out the bad parts of our Canadian Health care or the British where friends of mine have died waiting for things like dialisys.

Not all is rosy up here or across the pond.


In the US? Well if you like the compassion of the IRS and the efficiency of the Post Office then you'll probably love socialized medicine.

[chrish]

PS If we really wanted reform in the health insurance arena, we would demand equitable pricing for services for people paying cash and those with insurance.

For instance, I was told by imaging center I went to that a cash patient would pay approx $1200 for the MRI I had done. But the same service cost my insurance company over $4000. Why not just charge the insurance company the same price? The insurance company could then lower their prices, the insurance buyer wins with lower costs, the insurance company wins because prices would be lower and more people could afford their policies, and the imaging center wins by getting the same amount of money as they expected from a given customer in the first place. But with potential for more customers.

I am self employed & buy my own insurance if I so feel like it....The insurance I had last year (2006) cost me over 9k for the year..There is 4 of us..
In the end the insurance paid a total of $280 in the 12 months out of its pocket I paid the rest..of all the bills ,above and beyond the monthly premium.

What would happen is they were basicly my negotiator..the doctor would send the insurance a bill (which i would on the visit have to pay a charge to the doctor before leaving..30-50 dollars)The insurance would re-price the doctors bill & send me an amount to send the doctor FOR example:
doctor bills insurance 400.oo insurance re-prices the bill to 120.oo .insurance pays NOTHING to the (stupid) doctor & I send in another payment to the doctor of 120.oo.
The doctors need to tell the insurance companies to stick -it. They are making more money than the doctors that actually have a value in this society.The insurance companies have screwd the doctors into low to mid-level wage earners...that must hire a team of workers to try to collect from them. Then the insurance companies which are mostly a team of lawyers have forced them all to buy malpractice insurance & a whole slew of other "necessary" policies to line there pockets with.
Many of the doctors will not give a break to people that pay cash.in fact they will charge more.....Don't understand it but i'm living it 1st hand.

I'm currently self-insured on everything from health,home,title, & life insurance......I did my own actuary & decided to save the 20K + a year & go it on my own.......The state requires auto SO I buy that.

It is a bad circle that there are no winners........some people even base there job choice..or reason for working at all on health insurance????

[Logan]

Logan technically as a Canadian living out of the country, you are no longer entitled to Canadian healthcare. Citizen or not.


If I'm claiming foreign residency and/or am not going to be resident in canada for 183 out of the following 365 days after returning, that'd be true. Ontario and some of the other provinces have more restrictions. On returning to Ontario for instance, you've 5 days to purchase supplemental insurance prior to OHIP kicking in 3 months later... Alberta, much looser rules. Eligible immediately on return, provided you intend on staying for 6 months out of the next 12.

Trust me, it'd have to be pretty damned severe to play that card, which is exactly what we did with my mom. Got off the plane, went to the hospital, filed the paperwork and got treated and she's been living in Canada ever since.

As for me, I own property in Red Deer, AB and file Canadian taxes annually, so yes, I can absolutely claim Canadian residency thanks very much. I still have a valid Alberta Healthcare card... :)

Nanner Nanner boo boo... That's the mature side of Logan today.

Believe me, I know the system inside and out. :)

[BigMerc]

Jusy as with ALL of Michael Moore's work it is vague and cited cases are NOT as they seem. He espouses all the great virtues but look at his entire body of work all the way back to "Roger and Me" he manipulates the facts.

"Farenheit 911" don't get me started, he did that one with almost outright lies.


His policy is "any means to an end" so he figures lying for what HE sees as a good cause is ok.

Sheep will always be sheep. bleat and follow the loudest sheep up front.


Michael Moore is just a Liberal who has perfected the illusion.

[younga1]

Since when did a fat, ugly, disgruntled laid off auto worker become an authority on healthcare???

Buying tickets to anything that benefits him only fuels the foolishness.

No one is forced to have or buy health insurance. It sure beats trying to pay cash.

[Leadfoot281]

I just don't get it. Doesn't everyone know that this guy has absolutely zero credibility?

Maybe the check really is in the mail...

Maybe Lucy will let Charlie Brown kick the football this time...

And maybe a socialist will do a 'documentary' about socialized medicine that is 100% factual and isn't biased.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[oldekid]

Since when did a fat, ugly, disgruntled laid off auto worker become an authority on healthcare???
Be careful, that could apply to some people on here.
:beer:

[Aren Jay]

The big difference with Canada and States (USA) is at both ends. For the poor it sucks to be American, but for the rich it sucks to be Canadian.

In Canada you cannot go to the hospital pay and get an MRI (although in some places like Calgary you can do it privately) or get an operation (can't do that privately in Calgary) You just have to go wait in line like everyone else. Not everything is covered in Canada either. Ambulance rides you pay for unless your 65+ although for some emergency situations there are no charges. I know a multi Millionaire who broke her ankle and had to wait 10 hours, in the hospital, to see a doctor. On the ohter hand when my Dad had two quick strokes he was at the hospital very quickly and I was taken in to see him as soon as I arrived. Sadly he died two weeks later but for serious cases they can be very fast and very good. But if it is not serious; too bad.

In England they have both Private and public systems. The public system is slow but free. Sign up and it costs nothing as long as you wait. But they have a private system with private health care BUPA and others or you can pay cash. Then everything is very fast very efficient and very well done. My Mom had a health scare, was in for the operation the next day and back out 3 days after the first notification of a problem and has been fine since. I wish Canada would have a more British Health Care system, but the bleeding heart liberal (NDP) Pinko's won't stand for it. Doom and gloom. As it is even the rich in canada have to wait 10 months for a knee operation.

[Todd]

I am self employed & buy my own insurance if I so feel like it....The insurance I had last year (2006) cost me over 9k for the year..There is 4 of us..
In the end the insurance paid a total of $280 in the 12 months out of its pocket I paid the rest..of all the bills ,above and beyond the monthly premium.

What would happen is they were basicly my negotiator..the doctor would send the insurance a bill (which i would on the visit have to pay a charge to the doctor before leaving..30-50 dollars)The insurance would re-price the doctors bill & send me an amount to send the doctor FOR example:
doctor bills insurance 400.oo insurance re-prices the bill to 120.oo .insurance pays NOTHING to the (stupid) doctor & I send in another payment to the doctor of 120.oo.
The doctors need to tell the insurance companies to stick -it. They are making more money than the doctors that actually have a value in this society.The insurance companies have screwd the doctors into low to mid-level wage earners...that must hire a team of workers to try to collect from them. Then the insurance companies which are mostly a team of lawyers have forced them all to buy malpractice insurance & a whole slew of other "necessary" policies to line there pockets with.
Many of the doctors will not give a break to people that pay cash.in fact they will charge more.....Don't understand it but i'm living it 1st hand.

I'm currently self-insured on everything from health,home,title, & life insurance......I did my own actuary & decided to save the 20K + a year & go it on my own.......The state requires auto SO I buy that.

It is a bad circle that there are no winners........some people even base there job choice..or reason for working at all on health insurance????


I can feel your pain.

I actually work for a health care insurance company. Actually the most recognized name in the industry if that hint tells you anything. But dont think my opinions come from some loyalty to my company. I know they are a corporation and have little to no loyalty to me. So I only give them loyalty as far as being a good employee. I do not follow some talking points. But I have to point out that I work in IT and know absolutely NOTHING about the insurance side of it. I still have to ask really dumb questions about my coverage.

Also, my company is non-profit. So they make money only to reinvest in the company to grow membership. And develop new programs to offer lower cost policies. (and of course keep the few thousand employee's employed.




I look at how much I pay in health insurance and even though I get a darn good deal, I still hate to think about all the money I spend and potentially dont take advantage of because I dont go to the doctor often.


What I see the insurance as is a gamble as i stated before. If, God forbid, I have a heart attack or the like tomorrow my insurance will pay out much more than I have paid them and I will not be out much. They actually have policies that cover JUST that kind of thing. I think they refer to them as Catastrophic (?sp) Care policies.

I have a friend who owns a race shop/retail/mail order shop here in town and hear him talk about insurance costs. It is VERY expensive.


Self Insured is the best way although I dont know much about it for the other kind of policies (auto, home)



But one point I HAVE to disagree with is the doctors collecting the money. We have departments of people that do nothing else but handle provider relations and make absolutely sure the doctors are paid. In fact, if there are delays we pay the doctors interest on their money.

And doctors have a choice to either join or not join our network. If they do, their name and address and all other pertinant info is given to every member we have. Like free advertising. In return for the volume business a 'discounted', or set rate is contracted. The doctor agrees to it. It is not forced on them.

Additionally, the doctors get a monthly allotment for every HMO member they have on the books. So if I had HMO and only went to the doc once a year, the doc would still get a check every month for me having his name listed as my primary care physician. Then he gets paid for my one visit as well at the negotiated rate.




Sorry for the long reply. Just thought I would share a little info if anyone was interested.

[2003 MIB]

As for me, I own property in Red Deer, AB ...

Red Deer is a great town- Kinda like Texas without the flags and guns.
Carry on- I work for a very large pharma distributor and have nothing of value to add to this thread.

[Logan]

The big difference with Canada and States (USA) is at both ends. For the poor it sucks to be American, but for the rich it sucks to be Canadian.

In Canada you cannot go to the hospital pay and get an MRI (although in some places like Calgary you can do it privately) or get an operation (can't do that privately in Calgary) You just have to go wait in line like everyone else. Not everything is covered in Canada either. Ambulance rides you pay for unless your 65+ although for some emergency situations there are no charges.

F*** that. Most wealthy Canucks I know in Quebec and Ontario who care not to wait pop across the border into New York or Vermont and pay out of pocket if they want immediate treatment for elective or non-emergency stuff.

As for the rest of y'all... Come chat when you've actually experienced socialized care vs the ****ed up **** down here in the states and then you might be able to have an intelligent conversation on the subject.

Bottom line on his whole point is that a For-Profit medical insurance system is ****ing retarded. If you think it isn't, well, you're retarded as well and deserve what you get.

...there, my mature comment for the day... :)

So nice not having to be PC or worrying about walkin' any lines... ;)

[2003 MIB]

I hope you don't get banned.:P

[finster101]

It's bad enough that the insurance companies have as much input as they do about our care, my Dr. will give 18 Immitrex but the insurance says I only need 9 as that is what some published study shows. Now you want the people that pay $500.00 for a hammer and $2000.00 for a toilet seat to be responsible for that? Would we have to define pain to our doctor as they had to define "sex" to Bill?

[sailsmen]

"The doctors need to tell the insurance companies to stick -it. They are making more money than the doctors that actually have a value in this society.The insurance companies have screwd the doctors into low to mid-level wage earners...that must hire a team of workers to try to collect from them. Then the insurance companies which are mostly a team of lawyers have forced them all to buy malpractice insurance & a whole slew of other "necessary" policies to line there pockets with."

The Feds are the largest single price setter.

The average salary for Doctors ranges from $150K for a pediatrician to $650K for sureon.

Insurance companies are not forcing Doctors to buy malpractice, the law suits are. Most malpractice insurers went bust in the 1980's leaving St.
Paul as the only major insurer. Many malpractice insurrers are owned by the doctors.

Several family members and friends are doctors and I don't have the view of them that you do. They are smarter than what you are making them out to be.They are functioning in one of the most difficult situations in the US.

[rumble]

F*** that. Most wealthy Canucks I know in Quebec and Ontario who care not to wait pop across the border into New York or Vermont and pay out of pocket if they want immediate treatment for elective or non-emergency stuff.

As for the rest of y'all... Come chat when you've actually experienced socialized care vs the ****ed up **** down here in the states and then you might be able to have an intelligent conversation on the subject.

Bottom line on his whole point is that a For-Profit medical insurance system is ****ing retarded. If you think it isn't, well, you're retarded as well and deserve what you get.

...there, my mature comment for the day... :)

So nice not having to be PC or worrying about walkin' any lines... ;)

Logan, you've got to quit keeping your feelings bottled up inside. You need
let it out man. Repressed feelings lead to self destruction.

:lol:

Good to hear from you again!!! Welcome back.

[younga1]

Let's all face it. Insurance is truly a necessary evil. However, as long as stupidity is covered, I'm employed.

Now, lets talk cars!!! Taking mine to a show this weekend, 3 new bling items to install, hope to see 150mph this year.......................... ....

[BigMerc]

Logan you're gonna be on MCM.net ..like that... if you keep that up!!:P:P

[ParkRanger]

As for the rest of y'all... Come chat when you've actually experienced socialized care vs the ****ed up **** down here in the states and then you might be able to have an intelligent conversation on the subject.


Logan,

You have the definitive response for those who keep supporting our for-profit health insurance system, and totally correct!
Our American health system is the best in the world........as long as your healthy and stay that way. Contract a catastrophic disease, and if you are a middle class worker or small businessperson, you will loose your savings and possibly your home. Anyone who has had a very serious disease in their family will know what I am talking about. Hospitals, doctors, etc. will hound you for years for monies that Insurance didn't pick up. If you are indigent, then a merciful end to an undignified existence will be the result. It's immoral - and we should all be shamed because we are fortunate enough to have been given good health and work.

:burnout:

[sailsmen]

I work in the insurance business and have had formal training. I do not sell medical insurance.

All of my research indicates the major problem with Medical Insurance is that it is employer sponsored.

If my employer sponsored my groceries that would be a disaster.

This came about as a way around wage freeze during WWII.

Until this changes the problems we have will continue.

I have had several family members and friends suffer catastropic illness and they have not incurred large uninsured medical bills.

[Shora]

F*** that. Most wealthy Canucks I know in Quebec and Ontario who care not to wait pop across the border into New York or Vermont and pay out of pocket if they want immediate treatment for elective or non-emergency stuff.

As for the rest of y'all... Come chat when you've actually experienced socialized care vs the ****ed up **** down here in the states and then you might be able to have an intelligent conversation on the subject.

Bottom line on his whole point is that a For-Profit medical insurance system is ****ing retarded. If you think it isn't, well, you're retarded as well and deserve what you get.

...there, my mature comment for the day... :)

So nice not having to be PC or worrying about walkin' any lines... ;)


Logan,

You have the definitive response for those who keep supporting our for-profit health insurance system, and totally correct!
Our American health system is the best in the world........as long as your healthy and stay that way. Contract a catastrophic disease, and if you are a middle class worker or small businessperson, you will loose your savings and possibly your home. Anyone who has had a very serious disease in their family will know what I am talking about. Hospitals, doctors, etc. will hound you for years for monies that Insurance didn't pick up. If you are indigent, then a merciful end to an undignified existence will be the result. It's immoral - and we should all be shamed because we are fortunate enough to have been given good health and work.

:burnout:

FINALLY, some who speak and make sense.

My older brother who has kids pays $1,200 a month for health insurance for his family of 5 (wife and 3 kids).

I would gladly pay more in taxes then pay for these basic and necessary social services. At least when you pay your higher taxes what you pay is directly related to what you make. Earn a lot, pay more taxes. Earn little, pay less.

My brother, and many others, pay the high fee for health insurance no matter how much they earn that year. Recently, we had to close one of our businesses because this economy sucks for the small business owner (open for 12 yrs.) and it hurt us financially BIG TIME. Guess what, while we were struggling to figure out what to do he still had the stress of paying out $1,200 for health insurance or lose coverage which is NOT an option to someone with kids.

What if he didn't have savings? (Don't think that it couldn't happen. Many Americans are living pay check to pay check.) His family wouldn't have the most basic care and he would be left to rot.

The rich see a big savings by paying less in taxes and just paying for their own social services. However, the middle class here is fooled. They (the government) have you believe that you are paying less in taxes than countries that offer national health care but that is a croc of *****. After my brother pays his $1,200 a month for the health insurance bill ($14,400 per year) it adds up to closer what he would have paid in taxes in Canada and he still doesn't have the other social services that Canada gives their citizens.

Yes, this country was indeed built on the middle class but it no longer serves in their favor. A FU_KING SHAME!!!!!

[sailsmen]

Family of 4 here and we were paying less then $400 per month to Blue Cross. When we both lost our jobs after the hurricane.

I see over and over families buying low or no deductible insurance that is very expensive. In some areas the cost of birth control is covered when it is cheaper to buy on your own.

CHIPS basically insures kids for free, look into it.

[Todd]

FINALLY, some who speak and make sense.

My older brother who has kids pays $1,200 a month for health insurance for his family of 5 (wife and 3 kids).

I would gladly pay more in taxes then pay for these basic and necessary social services. At least when you pay your higher taxes what you pay is directly related to what you make. Earn a lot, pay more taxes. Earn little, pay less.

My brother, and many others, pay the high fee for health insurance no matter how much they earn that year. Recently, we had to close one of our businesses because this economy sucks for the small business owner (open for 12 yrs.) and it hurt us financially BIG TIME. Guess what, while we were struggling to figure out what to do he still had the stress of paying out $1,200 for health insurance or lose coverage which is NOT an option to someone with kids.

What if he didn't have savings? (Don't think that it couldn't happen. Many Americans are living pay check to pay check.) His family wouldn't have the most basic care and he would be left to rot.

The rich see a big savings by paying less in taxes and just paying for their own social services. However, the middle class here is fooled. They (the government) have you believe that you are paying less in taxes than countries that offer national health care but that is a croc of *****. After my brother pays his $1,200 a month for the health insurance bill ($14,400 per year) it adds up to closer what he would have paid in taxes in Canada and he still doesn't have the other social services that Canada gives their citizens.

Yes, this country was indeed built on the middle class but it no longer serves in their favor. A FU_KING SHAME!!!!!



Sounds like you want to live in a communist country. I hear North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, and the like are looking for new residents. You may need to look into it.



I just dont get some peoples entitlement attitude. Just because someone makes a little more money than you, why should they pay more for what they get???? Sounds like some of the communist manifesto to me. From those based on their means, to those based on their needs. I am paraphrasing there but you get the gist.


****EDIT****

Here is a better description of the communist manifesto excerpt. Sounds kinda familiar, huh.....! I dont think it worked very well when tried in the past. From Wikipedia:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan) popularized by Karl Marx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx) in his 1875 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1875) Critique of the Gotha Program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_the_Gotha_Program) . The phrase summarizes the idea that, under a communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) system, every person shall produce to the best of their ability in accordance with their talent, and each person shall receive the fruits of this production in accordance with their need, irrespective of what they have produced. In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance) of goods and services that a developed communist society will produce; the idea is that there will be enough to satisfy everyone's needs.



****EDIT****

Health insurance isnt required. Tell your brother to cancel his and save the money in the bank. May God forbid him or one of his family to get major sick. It will eat up ALL of his savings from not having insurance and then some.See Sailsmens post above. He mentioned a program that pays for children medical costs. Why not look into that?


When insurance companies consistently loose more money than they take in, they GO OUT OF BUSINESS. Do you think it is fair for them to loose money just to allow you to sit back and buy more car parts etc....(or whatever you do with your money....) ? People do things for motivation. Either money, fame, status, perks. Businesses dont stay in business for the fun of it. If the motivating factors are not present, they close the business.


That kind of attitude makes me sick. That is NOT what this country was built on. People worked for what they got, and didnt expect others to pay for theirs. But that is most peoples mentality now. Your post proved it.

[celtictexan]

Just saw this today. Forget what you might have heard about Mike Moore previously, just go see the movie. I promise you wont regret it. Anybody who has ever dealt with an HMO or had a problem with a "pre existing condition" should have to see this movie. In fact, I think everyone over 18 should see this.

Michael Moore is a lieing, liar. Always has been always will be. Go here (http://www.ivorydome.us/) and follow the links in the post for the truth about Moore and his propaganda. Some of the people in tht movie will tell you what really happened. Moore is famous for taking sound bites then molding them to fit his socialist agenda.

[Shora]

Sounds like you want to live in a communist country. I hear North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, and the like are looking for new residents. You may need to look into it.



I just dont get some peoples entitlement attitude. Just because someone makes a little more money than you, why should they pay more for what they get???? Sounds like some of the communist manifesto to me. From those based on their means, to those based on their needs. I am paraphrasing there but you get the gist.


****EDIT****

Here is a better description of the communist manifesto excerpt. Sounds kinda familiar, huh.....! I dont think it worked very well when tried in the past. From Wikipedia:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan) popularized by Karl Marx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx) in his 1875 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1875) Critique of the Gotha Program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_the_Gotha_Program) . The phrase summarizes the idea that, under a communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) system, every person shall produce to the best of their ability in accordance with their talent, and each person shall receive the fruits of this production in accordance with their need, irrespective of what they have produced. In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance) of goods and services that a developed communist society will produce; the idea is that there will be enough to satisfy everyone's needs.



****EDIT****

Health insurance isnt required. Tell your brother to cancel his and save the money in the bank. May God forbid him or one of his family to get major sick. It will eat up ALL of his savings from not having insurance and then some.See Sailsmens post above. He mentioned a program that pays for children medical costs. Why not look into that?


When insurance companies consistently loose more money than they take in, they GO OUT OF BUSINESS. Do you think it is fair for them to loose money just to allow you to sit back and buy more car parts etc....(or whatever you do with your money....) ? People do things for motivation. Either money, fame, status, perks. Businesses dont stay in business for the fun of it. If the motivating factors are not present, they close the business.


That kind of attitude makes me sick. That is NOT what this country was built on. People worked for what they got, and didnt expect others to pay for theirs. But that is most peoples mentality now. Your post proved it.

Where did I mention anything NEAR communism?

I mentioned that I would rather pay a little more in taxes and have basic and NECESSARY services provided then to "pretend" to pay less and pay very high prices for them myself.

England, France, Canada and many other industrialized Countries offer the exact programs/ services that I was referring to. Are you honestly going to sit here and call them communist?

I am not asking for ANY handouts. I said that I would rather pay a little more in taxes and have the security to know that my families health won't be compromised should something happen to my job.

40 million Americans are living in this Country without heath care. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? 40 MILLION!

My family and I have always been blessed to be able to afford heath care but 40 million of my countryman cannot. Just because "I" have been able to afford it doesn't mean that there isn't a problem.

[CBT]

Pass the buttermilk biscuits..

[duhtroll]

Yeah, 'cause ivorydome is the bastion of impartiality.

:rolleyes:

Are you seriously going to take the position that our health care system is fine the way it is?

Is anyone?

Anyone who is going to try and defend that position really doesn't have a clue.

How many of the people who like to spout all this anti-whoever crap in this thread and all over the place have actually seen the film?

That's what I thought.

Let's not talk facts -- we'll just call names and spout the very propaganda we deride and hope no one notices. :rolleyes:


Michael Moore is a lieing, liar. Always has been always will be. Go here (http://www.ivorydome.us/) and follow the links in the post for the truth about Moore and his propaganda. Some of the people in tht movie will tell you what really happened. Moore is famous for taking sound bites then molding them to fit his socialist agenda.

[celtictexan]

[quote=duhtroll;513669]Yeah, 'cause ivorydome is the bastion of impartiality./quote]

Like Isaid follow the links in the post. I think when the people who were used by M Moore in his movie call him a liar then you might want to pay attention.

Want to put the blame for the expense of health care on someone. Start looking at trial lawyers. John Edwards for example. It's almost impossible to deliver a baby in Carolina now thanks to him. He has the money people pay for insurance in his nice fat bank account and is running around the country in his private jet getting his $400.00 Haircuts claiming he should be the prez. Ivorydome.net Bastion of impartiality, lord forbid. Bastion of truth? Well we unlike M Moore at least try. And we back it up with links

[Todd]

Are you honestly a flipping retard or do you just play one on the internet?

What can you not understand about my post?

Where did I mention anything NEAR communism?

I mentioned that I would rather pay a little more in taxes and have basic and NECESSARY services provided then to "pretend" to pay less and pay very high prices for them myself.

England, France, Canada and many other industrialized Countries offer the exact programs/ services that I was referring to. Are you honestly going to sit here and call them communist?

You are a FOOL!

I am not asking for ANY handouts. I said that I would rather pay a little more in taxes and have the security to know that my families health won't be compromised should something happen to my job.

40 million Americans are living in this Country without heath care. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? 40 MILLION!

My family and I have always been blessed to be able to afford heath care but 40 million of my countryman cannot. Just because "I" have been able to afford it doesn't mean that there isn't a problem.


Insurance isnt neccessary. Health Care is. If you need health care, dont rely on the government to steal money from others to pay for it.

Maybe English isnt your first language. But let me clarify. Health Care and Health Insurance are two different things. To take money from the masses to pay for socialized medicine is stealing. It is theft. And almost perfectly matches the quote I gave you above. To take from those that have, and give to those that need. That is by force of the gun. Not out of charity, personal compassion, or the like. It is at the point of a gun. (ie if you dont pay your taxes, you WILL go to jail)


I didnt call you a fool. And you better not call me one.

[oldekid]

How many of the people who like to spout all this anti-whoever crap in this thread and all over the place have actually seen the film?At my last count, I believe that was a grand total of 1. I haven't seen it yet, and won't pass judgement on it until I do. I have a funny feeling that even if I did, and enjoyed it, I would be wasting my time sharing that information with the majority of the contributors to this thread.

I think it's very interesting how we all have such strong feelings about things that we have yet to experience ourselves.

Thanks for bringing that point up dutroll.

[RCSignals]

Red Deer is a great town- Kinda like Texas without the flags and guns.


Red Deer has both flags and guns. They just have to hide them.

[RCSignals]

Watch the movie. MRI wait times are FUD. Like I said, years ago, they were a problem. They aren't anymore.



Yeah, instead of waiting six months, there is now only a one or two month wait.

[RCSignals]

Step 1. Force conversion of US Healthcare system from For-Profit, Privately run, to Non-profit, privately run.

...but that'll never happen without government intervention or all out revolution...

There are many not-for-profit privately run hospitals in the US.

They function better than the government controlled ones in Canada.

Don't kid yourself, the Canadian medical system has it's eye on the dollar constantly, and it isn't in the interest of the best medical care for the patient.

[Shora]

Insurance isnt neccessary. Health Care is. If you need health care, dont rely on the government to steal money from others to pay for it.

Maybe English isnt your first language. But let me clarify. Health Care and Health Insurance are two different things. To take money from the masses to pay for socialized medicine is stealing. It is theft. And almost perfectly matches the quote I gave you above. To take from those that have, and give to those that need. That is by force of the gun. Not out of charity, personal compassion, or the like. It is at the point of a gun. (ie if you dont pay your taxes, you WILL go to jail)


I didnt call you a fool. And you better not call me one.

The government ALREADY steals (by force as you say) money for many social services.

How to you think governments are run?

Are you telling us that the government is allocating money for all their programs with money from "charity, personal compassion, or the like."

America will one day follow in the foot steps of many the other industrialized Countries and provide Health Care to its citizens.

I don't know when that day will come by it will because it is the right thing to do.

America didn't abolish slavery as soon as many other Countries did but they eventually followed in their foot steps because it was the right thing to do.

Greed caused slavery to last longer here in the same manner that greed is preventing a national health care program, like those in other western industrialized Countries, from taking place.

I only insulted you after you basically referred to me as a bum. Be more diplomatic and respectful if you want the same.

[duhtroll]

Not one fact or relevant point in that whole paragraph you posted. "Links" don't mean facts.

North Carolina having a tough time delivering babies, huh? Their population data say otherwise.

People QuickFacts North Carolina USA
Population, 2006 est. 8,856,505 299,398,484

Population, percent change, April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2006 10.1% 6.4%

North Carolina's population is growing at above the national average.

Maybe they all went out of state to deliver their children.




Want to put the blame for the expense of health care on someone. Start looking at trial lawyers. John Edwards for example. It's almost impossible to deliver a baby in Carolina now thanks to him. He has the money people pay for insurance in his nice fat bank account and is running around the country in his private jet getting his $400.00 Haircuts claiming he should be the prez. Ivorydome.net Bastion of impartiality, lord forbid. Bastion of truth? Well we unlike M Moore at least try. And we back it up with links

[celtictexan]

Not one fact or relevant point in that whole paragraph you posted. "Links" don't mean facts.

Links don't mean facts this is true but if you click on them and read you might see that they in fact will take you to facts. Just one of those odd HTML things.


North Carolina having a tough time delivering babies, huh? Their population data say otherwise.

Here's a link (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CPolit ics%5Carchive%5C200401%5CPOL20 040120a.html) click on it.


People QuickFacts North Carolina USA
Population, 2006 est. 8,856,505 299,398,484
Population, percent change, April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2006 10.1% 6.4%
North Carolina's population is growing at above the national average.


If you follow these out a little further you'll find that for the most part these growth figures are those on welfare, plus the large load of illegals in NC. These folks are already part of the socialist style medicine that M. Moore and other Democraps would love to create for all. Thats not to excuse the Republicons who in the case of the illegals love the social medicine system. It frees corporations from paying living wages to its workers so the CEo's can stuff more in their own pockets. In either case the tax payer loses and lawyers and insurance companies win.


Maybe they all went out of state to deliver their children.

http://www.fumento.com/fumento/edwards2007.html

http://conservablogs.com/bluecollarmuse/2007/04/12/what-john-edwards-did-for-the-other-america/

The above are url addy's. They don't mean facts either but you can still click on them and see facts.

How are you any way Troll haven't seen you in awhile. Still all supporative of Islam also? (http://www.motorcitymarauders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1313&highlight=are+politics+ok)

[oldekid]

Links don't mean facts this is true but if you click on them and read you might see that they in fact will take you to facts. Just one of those odd HTML things.



Here's a link (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CPolit ics%5Carchive%5C200401%5CPOL20 040120a.html) click on it.I clicked on that link, and found that site to be supported by the likes of Sean Hannity, Michael Reagan, and Rush Limbaugh. There's just something very wrong about that! :beer:

P.S. Strangely enough, they had some very good things to say about the movie "Sicko".

[celtictexan]

How are you any way Troll haven't seen you in awhile. Still all supporative of Islam also? (http://www.motorcitymarauders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1313&highlight=are+politics+ok)

By the way, I hear they have plenty of Islamic doctors in England and other places who love to part of furthering this socialist medical agenda.

[Dr Caleb]

Yeah, instead of waiting six months, there is now only a one or two month wait.

Or, as diabolical said, you can pay out of pocket to have it done now.

Edit:

http://www.health.gov.ab.ca/public/in_access.html

"Any patient requiring an emergency CT scan or MRI will receive one without delay."

[sailsmen]

I find it disturbing that several statements have been made that would lead on to believe they were living in a gulag being run by monsters.

I just don't have that view of our country or our fellow men.

I am living in an area where many aspects of government completely failed and continues to do so on all levels. The violent crime in parts of NO are not being stopped.

Yet we are able to obtain quality health care and live a good life.

[RCSignals]

Or, as diabolical said, you can pay out of pocket to have it done now.

Edit:

http://www.health.gov.ab.ca/public/in_access.html

"Any patient requiring an emergency CT scan or MRI will receive one without delay."

paying out of pocket reflects a problem in the system.

In Britain doctors have special office hours for people to 'pay out of pocket' rather than wait ridiculous times.

"emergency" is different from "diagnostic", and often "emergency" is too late.

[Dr Caleb]

paying out of pocket reflects a problem in the system.

In Britain doctors have special office hours for people to 'pay out of pocket' rather than wait ridiculous times.

"emergency" is different from "diagnostic", and often "emergency" is too late.

ROFLMAO. That's what I love about you Duncan.

Rediculous wait times in Britian? Says who? FUD. Did you see the part in the movie where UK Doctors get paid more if their patients are healthier? What about the part in the movie where there are no exchanges of any form of legal tender between Doctors and patients? No, you haven't seen the movie yet, have you?

If some clinic wants to go out and buy themselves an MRI machine and let people pay money to use it, that is problem with the system? So, how do you explain for-profit hospitals?

'Diagnostic' - I wonder what is wrong with my knees? I guess I will have to wait 6 - 8 weeks to find out, or perhaps I shoulda done something about my fat a-- years ago.

'Emergency' - I have a screwdriver in my skull - Help!! I should have planned better and booked this emergency 6 - 8 weeks ago!

lol

[duhtroll]

If you follow these out a little further you'll find that for the most part these growth figures are those on welfare, plus the large load of illegals in NC. These folks are already part of the socialist style medicine that M. Moore and other Democraps would love to create for all.

Again, no facts whatsoever. Do you really think anyone believes this crap you're making up?

"If you follow these out a little further..." :lol: You mean to Sean Hannity's mouth?

"Welfare and illegals" You really believe that the US Census Bureau would put something like that in their report, even if it were true? (which it isn't) I suppose all those illegals filled out census data forms! :laugh:

I guess by your statement above all those babies must be born on welfare. But you said it was nearly impossible to deliver a baby in NC -- surely more so for someone with no insurance, not less.


Still all supporative of Islam also?

I'm not Pro-Islam. I'm anti-bullsh|t, which is all you and a few others can seem to post. IIRC in that thread (or one like it) you recommended nuking the entire region to hit the extremists.

I just saw on the Fox News Channel, no less a program entitled "Muslims against Jihad." Watch it sometime. Of course they had that blond that fills in for O'Reilly "interpreting" it for people who want to be told what they are watching, but I muted that part.

Nice rack, though.

Look, I get it. You hate Islam and you hate liberals. You and a couple others have said this nearly a billion times already. It doesn't mean anything you are posting has any factual credibility whatsoever. Giving links like "conservative blogs" isn't going to help, either.

[celtictexan]

I find it disturbing that several statements have been made that would lead on to believe they were living in a gulag being run by monsters.

Watch any M. Moore docu-liar-drama. Although, he was pretty accurately portrayed in "Team America World Police". A very Funny movie. I'll never forget the puppet sex scene. Thing is when it comes to politics of the world it was irritatingly true.

[finster101]

Maybe some of have experienced it, have strong feelings about it and do not feel the need to share life experiences on the internet.

[celtictexan]

Again, no facts whatsoever. Do you really think anyone believes this crap you're making up?

Are you from Missouri? Does a rattle snake actually have to bite you and even then do you have to almost die before you see the facts? This link (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CPolit ics%5Carchive%5C200401%5CPOL20 040120a.html) is wrote by Marc Morano not Hannity. It links to sources such as Dr. Murray Goldstein, a neurologist and the medical director of the United Cerebral Palsy Research and Educational Foundation, Dr. John Freeman, a professor of neurology and pediatrics at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Md, The Boston Globe, Walter Olson, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of the book, The Rule of Lawyers, Peter Huber, a lawyer and author of the book, Galileo's Revenge: Junk Science in the Courtroom, Seroiusly dude what does it take with you?

You can go here (http://immigrationcounters.com/) to see the cost of illegal immigration Notice the medical costs. After trial lawyers immigration is the next big cost to the tax payer and the folks who are paying medical insurance. Welfare, you know when one drug user shoots up (with a gun) another and ends up in the emergency room, then a couple of million later, paid by taxes and insurance premiums walks out and starts selling dope again. Or some lard a** that knows the more babies she makes the more welfare she gets. In case you don't know those can't by federal law be turned away.


"Welfare and illegals" You really believe that the US Census Bureau would put something like that in their report, even if it were true? (which it isn't) I suppose all those illegals filled out census data forms!

Actually they do. Again by federal law it can't be used to deport them, but it does help a state get more fed money for the Federally mandated welfare programs.


I guess by your statement above all those babies must be born on welfare. But you said it was nearly impossible to deliver a baby in NC --

No I said for them being already under a socialist medical system don't have to worry about it as the hospitals are mandated by law to care for them. If the state gets sued by one of these greedy lawyers it just pays up. after all its only state taxpayer money. I won't get into the wic and all that other nice freebie (for them) stuff they get afterwards.


I'm not Pro-Islam. I'm anti-bullsh|t,

That's a good way to be! So why do you support Moore?


I just saw on the Fox News Channel, no less a program entitled "Muslims against Jihad."

I did. It's taken them since 9-11 to find enough to put the show on. Pathetic huh? And they still needed the nice rack.:)

Look, I get it. You hate Islam and you hate liberals. (and neo cons and Dems and Repubs. Different wrappers around the same old turd) You and a couple others have said this nearly a billion times already. It doesn't mean anything you are posting has any factual credibility whatsoever. (back to that rattle snake thing again Its gonna take a bite in the ass for you to believe) Giving links like "conservative blogs" isn't going to help, either.[/quote] (Boston Globe a conservative blog! ROTFLMAO )

[oldekid]

celtictexan, your "LINK" for facts, still goes to the CNSNEWS site, which has no credibility with me. That site does however, give the movie Sicko a pretty good rating, which is quite ironic, since they were founded soley for the purpose of bashing, or perhaps interpreting the actions of liberals.

You seem to rely on them for your "facts". So what happened with the Michael Moore movie? Are they just wrong?

If they are wrong about that, why do you trust them so much for your fact based arguments about eveything else?

I believe that dutroll is kicking your a$$ when he questions your facts.

Have a nice day, and stay healthy.

A fellow Iowan.
:beer:

[CBT]

I want to see the movie. I'm in the military and I have to go through a primary care physician, can you believe that? I had a problem with my arm Monday and was told the soonest I could be seen was on the 18th of July. Why? Cause all the good Docs are deployed, saving lives in 2 ongoing wars. We want to pull out the troops because Iraq can't secure it's borders and establish good order and discipline in it's government. Hell, we can't do that HERE! Our borders are wide open and our politicians are crooks. Everyone screams we need to protect the U.S. from Al Qieda dirty bombs but we can't even protect this place from Chinese toothpaste, the southern border is wide open, gas is over 3 dollars a gallon, and I have to wait until the 18th to get my arm looked at. Michael Moore may be a big fat obnoxious guy, but he makes one hell of a documentary, I can't wait to see it. I have spoken.

[RCSignals]

ROFLMAO. That's what I love about you Duncan.

Rediculous wait times in Britian? Says who? FUD. Did you see the part in the movie where UK Doctors get paid more if their patients are healthier? What about the part in the movie where there are no exchanges of any form of legal tender between Doctors and patients? No, you haven't seen the movie yet, have you?

If some clinic wants to go out and buy themselves an MRI machine and let people pay money to use it, that is problem with the system? So, how do you explain for-profit hospitals?

'Diagnostic' - I wonder what is wrong with my knees? I guess I will have to wait 6 - 8 weeks to find out, or perhaps I shoulda done something about my fat a-- years ago.

'Emergency' - I have a screwdriver in my skull - Help!! I should have planned better and booked this emergency 6 - 8 weeks ago!

lol

The movie is wrong about Britain, plainly. Do you believe Moore religiously?

Talk to some real people.

In a system such as Canada's, paying out of pocket shows a problem.
The fact that there is suddenly room for 'for-profit' hospitals/clinics within the Canadian system is a sign of a problem in the system.

You obvious do not understand the difference between diagnostic and emergency.

The system in Canada works fairly well on an 'Emergency' level "Help I have a screw driver in my head"

It does not work so well on a preventative level
"I'm just not feeling right, something is certainly wrong" - Take two aspirin and call me in six weeks.

A uncle of mine would be dead now if not for qualifying for "Emergency" scan after a car accident. As an aside, It showed Colon cancer, which otherwise should have been caught much sooner.
If not for that accident, he never would have been approved for a diagnostic scan, unless of course he "paid out of pocket" for it.

[BruteForce]

Spoken like a clear-eyed patriot. I'm with you.


I want to see the movie. I'm in the military and I have to go through a primary care physician, can you believe that? I had a problem with my arm Monday and was told the soonest I could be seen was on the 18th of July. Why? Cause all the good Docs are deployed, saving lives in 2 ongoing wars. We want to pull out the troops because Iraq can't secure it's borders and establish good order and discipline in it's government. Hell, we can't do that HERE! Our borders are wide open and our politicians are crooks. Everyone screams we need to protect the U.S. from Al Qieda dirty bombs but we can't even protect this place from Chinese toothpaste, the southern border is wide open, gas is over 3 dollars a gallon, and I have to wait until the 18th to get my arm looked at. Michael Moore may be a big fat obnoxious guy, but he makes one hell of a documentary, I can't wait to see it. I have spoken.

[RCSignals]

Spoken like a clear-eyed patriot. I'm with you.


If only they could put regular troops on the border in an enforcement capacity.

[Leadfoot281]

I just don't get it. Doesn't everyone know that this guy has absolutely zero credibility?

Maybe the check really is in the mail...

Maybe Lucy will let Charlie Brown kick the football this time...

And maybe a socialist will do a 'documentary' about socialized medicine that is 100% factual and isn't biased.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

+1!!! This guy is brilliant! :D

Talk about completely un biased... Biased links, biased sources, blah, blah, blah....

What about Moores obvious bias? Sheesh! Anyone who takes anything he says seriously, probably also thinks that The Dailly Show with Jon Stewart is an actual news program or that The Onion is a real newspaper.

I haven't seen the movie and I don't plan on it. Why? Well, how about it leftys? Would you go see a 'documentary' about politics if it were made by Ann Coulter?

Isn't my point completely obvious? I'll trust Michael Moore when I trust a former politition like AlGore to give me accurate weather information.

Besides, Moore looks more like a pastry chef than a doctor. I would however, trust his donut reccomendations.

[Dr Caleb]

The movie is wrong about Britain, plainly. Do you believe Moore religiously?

Talk to some real people.


That's all you got? And no, I don't believe Moore any more than I believe Fox News. I believe 10% of what I read, and 50% of what I see. But Mr. Moore has a point, and people need to understand what it is, rather than just dismiss him as a 'whack job'.



In a system such as Canada's, paying out of pocket shows a problem.
The fact that there is suddenly room for 'for-profit' hospitals/clinics within the Canadian system is a sign of a problem in the system.


Ahh, no. Unless the same can be said of the US system, where the same is true. The only difference here is the public system can pay to use the private MRI to reduce waiting times too.

You do remember that Health Care is provided provincially, rather than federally, right?



You obvious do not understand the difference between diagnostic and emergency.

The system in Canada works fairly well on an 'Emergency' level "Help I have a screw driver in my head"


No, you're right. I only work at Alberta Health, and I'm just talking out my a--.



It does not work so well on a preventative level
"I'm just not feeling right, something is certainly wrong" - Take two aspirin and call me in six weeks.


Yup, I figured you were talking out yours too.

http://www.health.gov.ab.ca/key/reform.html

[sailsmen]

Is it a debate about health care or socialism?

It is a debate about socialism.

I have lived in New Orleans, a socialists city. I personally know of dozens of individuals who were formerly socialists and post Katrina have done an about face.

They experienced how effective the government was in helping them vs their fellow man both for and not-for profit.

Several have told me they are now lifetime members of the NRA. One lady I know told me she had a zen moment and no longer believes in government.

I could go on and on about how government treated and continues to treat it's citizens. The gross incompetence and complete lack of focus is amazing.

Governments focus is solely on the government and not on it's citizens. generally there is little if any individual responsibility. It is this way on purpose so that no single individual is necessary for the government to function, this system is better known as bureacracy.

I do not want the treatment of my health determined by a civil servants interpretation of thousand and thousand of pages of ever changing regulations.

[duhtroll]

Are you from Missouri? Does a rattle snake actually have to bite you and even then do you have to almost die before you see the facts? (rambling and useless links edited)

Seroiusly dude what does it take with you?

I dunno. Maybe some real facts, and not a bunch of guys getting together fabricating evidence just because they don't like someone or something.

This rattlesnake thing is just more fear-mongering. No, I'm not afraid of any rattlesnakes. They don't live where I am and don't have the resources to get here. The odds are astronomical that I am going to be bitten by one unless I go to where they live.

Now, FOX News would find the one person in 47 years that was bitten in the ass on their own toilet on a 19th floor apartment and use that as evidence that everyone is now a target. I, unlike yourself, don't believe that.

The point of Mr. Moore's movie is that there are serious problems with US health care. Do you care to debate that?

If you want to have an intelligent discussion about this, you would:

1) See the film for yourself (not take what you see on right wing websites as fact)
1a) Look up the word "verbatim"
2) Write down, verbatim, one or two points you agree or disagree with
3) Look them up for yourself at reputable and relatively unbiased independent research sites (you'll know what "relatively unbiased means because they only present the research findings without concluding with statements like "See? Liberals and gays cause spontaneous combustion!!!" "Sponsored by Rupert Murdoch"
4) THEN, you get to dispute the conclusions Moore made.

I'm willing to bet you can find a few things in Moore's film that were presented for shock value and really don't have much substance behind them, if you're willing to look. HOWEVER, you will find many more that are supported by facts.

Just a hint -- watching some fat woman scream "Michael Moore took what I said out of context and made it look like I'm a liar" is not a fact, even if you see it on video. She could have been paid to say that after the movie came out.



You can go here (http://immigrationcounters.com/) to see the cost of illegal immigration Notice the medical costs. After trial lawyers immigration is the next big cost to the tax payer and the folks who are paying medical insurance. Welfare, you know when one drug user shoots up (with a gun) another and ends up in the emergency room, then a couple of million later, paid by taxes and insurance premiums walks out and starts selling dope again. Or some lard a** that knows the more babies she makes the more welfare she gets. In case you don't know those can't by federal law be turned away.

This is not germane to your point and its bringing the discussion farther off- topic. Even if true, it doesn't provide any evidence your point about the difficulty of births in North Carolina.

I can say that "illegal immigrants are breathing all my oxygen" and I can probably find evidence for that. It doesn't matter, though.


That's a good way to be! So why do you support Moore?

I don't necessarily. I'm not Pro-Moore. I'm anti-bullsh|t. I'm all for pointing out when his facts are faulty. However, there is more substance in his work than crap. There are facts there that his attackers choose to ignore. As I said, are you really going to take the position that our health care system is fine?


I did. It's taken them since 9-11 to find enough to put the show on. Pathetic huh? And they still needed the nice rack.:)

The title alone suggests that not all Muslims, even that a majority of them are not, violent extremists. They couldn't "find" the video (not true, they just couldn't get it) because it was a PBS creation.


(back to that rattle snake thing again Its gonna take a bite in the ass for you to believe)

Again, back to the fear thing. I'm not afraid of rattlesnakes. If they should somehow overcome the overwhelming odds in finding my ass to bite it, there's anti-venom.

[duhtroll]

Is it a debate about health care or socialism?

It is a debate about socialism.

You already live with several "socialist" aspects of our society which you seem to be OK with.


I do not want the treatment of my health determined by a civil servants interpretation of thousand and thousand of pages of ever changing regulations.

Right now it's being determined by insurance companies, who make more money if they don't provide any services. That's OK then?

I'll take a civil servant any day. At least their pockets aren't lined every time they say "no."

[Logan]

Wow. I love this thread. Only on .net can a thread on Healthcare become subverted to discussing terroism, islam and illegal immigration.

[sailsmen]

You already live with several "socialist" aspects of our society which you seem to be OK with.

I am not OK w/ it, thats why I posted what I posted.


Right now it's being determined by insurance companies, who make more money if they don't provide any services. That's OK then?

If they don't provide their contractually obligated services, pay for whats covered, they are subject to law suits and losing their license. Their reputation which afects their ability to stay in business. All insurance companies determine is what they will pay for based on the insurance coverage you or your employer bought.

I'll take a civil servant any day. At least their pockets aren't lined every time they say "no."

The Civil Servant is immune to lawsuits or having a bad reputation resulting in business going else where. Ever heard of a civil servant being fired?

Come talk to the 120,000 homeowner families who lost their homes about getting services from civil servants.

In LA 95% of insurance company claims were paid with in a year of Katrina. With in a year of Katrin not a SINGLE HOMEONER WAS PAID ONE PENNY BY THE GOVERNMENT PROGRAM!

[RCSignals]

That's all you got? And no, I don't believe Moore any more than I believe Fox News. I believe 10% of what I read, and 50% of what I see. But Mr. Moore has a point, and people need to understand what it is, rather than just dismiss him as a 'whack job'.

It's what i have and it's valid. Rules and regulation may be one thing, but practice is another. Talk to some real people.




Ahh, no. Unless the same can be said of the US system, where the same is true. The only difference here is the public system can pay to use the private MRI to reduce waiting times too.

the public system has a failure when it now must turn to a private system for support.


You do remember that Health Care is provided provincially, rather than federally, right?

Of course, I already stated that the system varies between Provinces. You did read that, right?




No, you're right. I only work at Alberta Health, and I'm just talking out my a--.

perhaps you are too burried in it




Yup, I figured you were talking out yours too.

http://www.health.gov.ab.ca/key/reform.html

ah yes system Reform and Evolution. If it's not broken.......

[BruteForce]

the public system has a failure when it now must turn to a private system for support.


I gotta jump on this one. The "public" system (however you define that... I define it as services mandated and funded by Congress) has changed over the years to subcontract out almost *ALL* services. That was part and parcel of the whole push for budget efficiency since the 70s. It has been deemed that the federal bureaucracy is better at managing contracts than they are at managing service infrastructure.

[duhtroll]

The Civil Servant is immune to lawsuits or having a bad reputation resulting in business going else where.

Incorrect. Who told you this?


Ever heard of a civil servant being fired?

Yes. It happens frequently. I can think of two in my local community in the last 6 months, and that's without even checking.


Come talk to the 120,000 homeowner families who lost their homes about getting services from civil servants.

Doubt I will. But its hearsay, of course, so who knows how accurate the information is.


In LA 95% of insurance company claims were paid with in a year of Katrina. With in a year of Katrin not a SINGLE HOMEONER WAS PAID ONE PENNY BY THE GOVERNMENT PROGRAM!

Do you understand how the "government program" works? I don't. But since you are the one evaluating it, please explain who they are (i.e. which program we are talking about), what they are supposed to do and how they failed, and then I can address it. What I have right now is "government programs suck," which is nothing more than opinion.

[celtictexan]

(rambling and useless links edited)

Ok by your own admision you consider Dr. Murray Goldstein, a neurologist and the medical director of the United Cerebral Palsy Research and Educational Foundation, Dr. John Freeman, a professor of neurology and pediatrics at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Md. and Walter Olson, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute of Medicine, people who ramble and are useless.

I notice you link to Al franken. (http://www.lyingliar.com/index.htm) Can I assume he is the only one (or others of his ilk) that you do believe. Can I assume you have put all your trust in Jessi Jackson or Al Sharpton. I can assume you think Bush the devil for commuting Libby's jail time but I suspect you love Clinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardons_controver sy)

Point is so we can continue just exactly who do you believe besides M. Moore? (http://www.moorewatch.com/) So let me know who you trust and we can go on from there.

I'm willing to bet you can find a few things in Moore's film that were presented for shock value (a few, ROTFLMAO) and really don't have much substance behind them, if you're willing to look (Are you?). HOWEVER, you will find many more that are supported by facts. (all that is in that movie as in his others are distortions of facts, truth is he rarely lies he distorts, he is a master of propaganda)

Just a hint -- watching some fat woman scream "Michael Moore took what I said out of context and made it look like I'm a liar" is not a fact, even if you see it on video. She could have been paid to say that after the movie came out. Lord she could have been paid!!!!!! Straight from the horses mouth and you find a way to ignore her. What if she had had a nice rack and not so fat? Maybe you would believe then.


This is not germane to your point and its bringing the discussion farther off- topic. Even if true, it doesn't provide any evidence your point about the difficulty of births in North Carolina.

The cost of medicine just for illegals (welfare bums are not included here) is not germane to the problems facing medical care in the US. $397,464,701,552.00 dollars of tax payer money not germane. Wow thats nice to know. I was a tad concerned about that.

I can say that "illegal immigrants are breathing all my oxygen" and I can probably find evidence for that. It doesn't matter, though. (if they are breathing your oxygen then you must be kissing)

As I said, are you really going to take the position that our health care system is fine? No as I pointed out our government of the lawyers, for the lawyers and by the lawyers, along with the 4th estate (main stream media), has the medical system as well as everything else all hosed up.

The title alone suggests that not all Muslims, even that a majority of them are not, violent extremists. They couldn't "find" the video (not true, they just couldn't get it) because it was a PBS creation.(oh PBS now there is an unbiased source)

[duhtroll]

Ok by your own admision you consider Dr. Murray Goldstein, a neurologist and the medical director of the United Cerebral Palsy Research and Educational Foundation, Dr. John Freeman, a professor of neurology and pediatrics at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Md. and [COLOR=black] Walter Olson, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute of Medicine, people who ramble and are useless.

No, that comment was directed at you.


I notice you link to Al franken. (http://www.lyingliar.com/index.htm) Can I assume he is the only one (or others of his ilk) that you do believe.

That's not a link in the discussion. It's my signature. Its there because its funny watching Bill O'Reilly getting caught in an obvious lie. It doesn't matter to me who did the "catching."


Point is so we can continue just exactly who do you believe besides M. Moore? (http://www.moorewatch.com/) So let me know who you trust and we can go on from there.

Um, we're not discussing who duhtroll trusts and who he doesn't. This is a discussion on health care. But if you want a list:

Trust: me
Not trust: you

Why? I read and comprehend.



(all that is in that movie as in his others are distortions of facts, truth is he rarely lies he distorts, he is a master of propaganda)

"All?" Really? You know using universals in a discussion nearly always means you are incorrect, right? Because he is Michael Moore then everything he ever says or does must be wrong, then? Wow.

Apparently almost everyone who has reviewed the film disagrees with you. Even the FOX News review had some good things to say.


What if she had had a nice rack and not so fat? Maybe you would believe then.

Probably not. The two comments I made were unrelated, as evidenced by the paragraph change and the word "though."



The cost of medicine just for illegals (welfare bums are not included here) is not germane to the problems facing medical care in the US. $397,464,701,552.00 dollars of tax payer money not germane. Wow thats nice to know. I was a tad concerned about that.

Again I ask you, what does this have to do with your statement that "it is nearly impossible to deliver a baby in NC"?

If you can find a statement by a NC hospital that says "we are having a difficult time delivering babies because of illegal immigrants" or something similar, I'll grant it. Good luck.

Or could we just quit the non sequitur whining and stay on topic?


(if they are breathing your oxygen then you must be kissing)

Do they have a nice rack?


No as I pointed out our government of the lawyers, for the lawyers and by the lawyers, along with the 4th estate (main stream media),

So now its Islam, illegal immigrants, lawyers, liberals, gays and the media that are at fault for everything?

I thought the liberals were supposed to be the haters.


(oh PBS now there is an unbiased source)

And yet FOX News (the "largest" news channel by viewer numbers - there goes that "liberal media" argument) decided to show it. Must not have been that bad.

Are you going to comment on the film, or just rant in an omnidirectional manner?

[RCSignals]

I gotta jump on this one. The "public" system (however you define that... I define it as services mandated and funded by Congress) has changed over the years to subcontract out almost *ALL* services. That was part and parcel of the whole push for budget efficiency since the 70s. It has been deemed that the federal bureaucracy is better at managing contracts than they are at managing service infrastructure.

True in the US. Over site is key when this happens to 'services' to maintain consistency.

Some services traditionally the purview of the Government in Canada have also been put to subcontract. when something is 'Socialised" though it is typically run entirely by the government, or in Canada sometimes a specially set up "Crown Corporation"

[RCSignals]

BruteForce, maybe you remember this. A few years ago there was a competition for the "best" plan for a Universal type medical system. As I recall it was held in Seattle, and the 'winner' was a Canadian Dentist.
His plan used a mixture of 'Government' and 'non-government' services. It included Dental care, and Pharmacy I think.

I can't find the info I had on it, and can't find a link to the story.

[celtictexan]

I haven't given up trying to point out the flaws in the M. Moore socialist utopia. Just been busy with R/T issues. I'll be back.

[ParkRanger]

I just saw on the Fox News Channel, no less a program entitled "Muslims against Jihad." Watch it sometime. Of course they had that blond that fills in for O'Reilly "interpreting" it for people who want to be told what they are watching, but I muted that part.




Just for clarity, Fox News has recently changed their name. They can now be refered to as either of the two following:

Fox Noise or Faux News

PR :burnout:

[CBT]

Lou Dobbs is the answer. Watching his show is like choosing between the the two pills in 'Matrix'. Free your mind....or don't.

[Dr Caleb]

Lou Dobbs is the answer. Watching his show is like choosing between the the two pills in 'Matrix'. Free your mind....or don't.

:2thumbs:Wayyyyy up!

[RCSignals]

Lou Dobbs is the answer. Watching his show is like choosing between the the two pills in 'Matrix'. Free your mind....or don't.

Lou Dobbs was interesting on immigration.

He's waisting/wasting his time where he is, he should be on Fox News

[Logan]

You're right, he's definately been getting much fatter lately... TOO fat for CNN...

[RCSignals]

You're right, he's definately been getting much fatter lately... TOO fat for CNN...


I was waiting for that, now I can edit ;)

[Logan]

hehehehhe... Happy to oblige buddy. :)

[Wags]

All I know is that I pay 2k+/month for my health insurance. I am self-employed. My wife and daughter have medical issues that prevent me from going elsewhere (pre-exsiting conditions), so I am stuck. We have to fight for every claim that is put in, and they change the rules all of the time. :mad:I almost took a job last fall with a company, just to save on the cost of insurance. The cost is getting astronomical for the self-employed and/or small businesses. All i know is that insurance costs (health, disability, home, car, business) are really killing me.

Wags

[CBT]

All I know is that I pay 2k+/month for my health insurance. I am self-employed. My wife and daughter have medical issues that prevent me from going elsewhere (pre-exsiting conditions), so I am stuck. We have to fight for every claim that is put in, and they change the rules all of the time. :mad:I almost took a job last fall with a company, just to save on the cost of insurance. The cost is getting astronomical for the self-employed and/or small businesses. All i know is that insurance costs (health, disability, home, car, business) are really killing me.

Wags
I know a gal who works at Sears just for the insurance benefits. Her full time job? Owns and runs a bar in the Chicago area with her husband, does pretty well, but not well enough to afford insurance as a small business owner. Sad state of affairs right now in this country.

[celtictexan]

All I know is that I pay 2k+/month for my health insurance.

This is the point I'm trying to get to. And is much of what M. Moore chosses not to tell people.

That 2k your paying is not just for you it covers the cost of making men like J. Edwards rich. It covers the cost of medical care for illegal's. It covers the cost of insurance doctors have to pay. It covers the cost of medical for welfare bums, and those in prison.

Along with this almost 2/3 of the taxes you pay go to social programs of one kind or another. Just sit down sometime and really figure the total you pay in tax each year. Add up you sales taxes, property taxes, income taxes, all the little hidden user fees for state parks, drivers licences, tags and titles, gas taxes, building permits, all the thing that are really taxes, but called something else so that the average person doesn't connect the dots.

You pay a tax on each phone you have now for free phones for welfare bums and internet in library's so welfare bums can surf porn. Throw in all you medical cost's and I'd bet that well over half your pay goes to these socialist agendas. And folks like Moore are screaming for ever more money. The welfare and illegals already outnumber working folks in some states. Soon it will be the entire country. And they are all going to want what little money you have left after the government gets it's share.

Moore never outright lies as I've said before he just never tells all the story, or grossly distorts the story. These are the Inconvenient truths that M. Moore does not show in his movies.

[BruteForce]

This is so full of outright fabrications/lies that I don't know where to start.


This is the point I'm trying to get to. And is much of what M. Moore chosses not to tell people.

That 2k your paying is not just for you it covers the cost of making men like J. Edwards rich. It covers the cost of medical care for illegal's. It covers the cost of insurance doctors have to pay. It covers the cost of medical for welfare bums, and those in prison.


He's paying a private insurance company. Last I heard, they don't pay for medical care for illegals or malpractice insurance for doctors (they may SELL it to doctors though...) or the cost of medical for welfare bums, and those in prison



Along with this almost 2/3 of the taxes you pay go to social programs of one kind or another.

Depends on how you read the budget. If you move ALL military-related expenses (veterans benefits etc) into the national defense portion it changes the balance considerably.

2008 Budget
Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,387 billion
MILITARY: 51% and $1,228 billion
NON-MILITARY: 49% and $1,159 billion




Just sit down sometime and really figure the total you pay in tax each year. Add up you sales taxes, property taxes, income taxes, all the little hidden user fees for state parks, drivers licences, tags and titles, gas taxes, building permits, all the thing that are really taxes, but called something else so that the average person doesn't connect the dots.

You pay a tax on each phone you have now for free phones for welfare bums and internet in library's so welfare bums can surf porn.


Yeah every time I go into a public library, those bums are all over the 1 or 2 five year old PCs. What's strange is these "bums" look an awful lot like school kids.



Throw in all you medical cost's and I'd bet that well over half your pay goes to these socialist agendas. And folks like Moore are screaming for ever more money. The welfare and illegals already outnumber working folks in some states.


Show me. Quotes from Fox New need not apply unless they are quoting a credible source. You know... research; not editorials.



Soon it will be the entire country. And they are all going to want what little money you have left after the government gets it's share.


So now you have deadbeats and commies under your bed too? Must get crowded with all those blood thirsty Muslims already under there.




Moore never outright lies as I've said before he just never tells all the story, or grossly distorts the story. These are the Inconvenient truths that M. Moore does not show in his movies.

You have added absolutely nothing to the debate other than thinly veiled racist rants. Not trying to defend Moore, he doesn't need it. Just tired of listening to the right-wing slime machine (not you... your sources). Too bad your constituency is getting wise to the game.

[Shora]

All I know is that I pay 2k+/month for my health insurance. I am self-employed. My wife and daughter have medical issues that prevent me from going elsewhere (pre-exsiting conditions), so I am stuck. We have to fight for every claim that is put in, and they change the rules all of the time. :mad:I almost took a job last fall with a company, just to save on the cost of insurance. The cost is getting astronomical for the self-employed and/or small businesses. All i know is that insurance costs (health, disability, home, car, business) are really killing me.

Wags


I know a gal who works at Sears just for the insurance benefits. Her full time job? Owns and runs a bar in the Chicago area with her husband, does pretty well, but not well enough to afford insurance as a small business owner. Sad state of affairs right now in this country.

Finally, other people who like me understand that the small business owner and self employed really suffer under the current health care system.

Earlier I said that the middle class (or small business owner) suffers the most under this system and some disagreed with me.

How can you not see that the poor get no health care (emergency care only) and the middle class pay too much in relation to income?

Only the rich, who can easily afford these costs, are happy with the current system. However, how many of our countrymen are that financially well off?

[SC Cheesehead]

Finally, other people who like me understand that the small business owner and self employed really suffer under the current health care system.

Earlier I said that the middle class (or small business owner) suffers the most under this system and some disagreed with me.

How can you not see that the poor get no health care (emergency care only) and the middle class pay too much in relation to income?

Only the rich, who can easily afford these costs, are happy with the current system. However, how many of our countrymen are that financially well off?

What do you quantify as "rich"?

[BruteForce]

What do you quantify as "rich"?

Somebody with more than me. :D

I too am a small business owner and all I can afford is high deductible catastrophic health insurance. That means on top of the high monthly premiums, I still get to pay 100% out of pocket for just about everything.

What's wrong with that picture?!?

[sailsmen]

[QUOTE=BruteForce;514824]This is so full of outright fabrications/lies that I don't know where to start.



Depends on how you read the budget. If you move ALL military-related expenses (veterans benefits etc) into the national defense portion it changes the balance considerably.

2008 Budget
Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,387 billion
MILITARY: 51% and $1,228 billion
NON-MILITARY: 49% and $1,159 billion




Evry measure of the defence budget I have seen shows that from 1946-1996 35% and 1996-2001 17% and 2001-2007 20%. Vetrans Benefits are 31%?

The primary purpose of Gov't is to provide defense.

Your 51% figure is way off. I have checked several sources including the CBO.

[celtictexan]

This is so full of outright fabrications/lies that I don't know where to start.

Ok just so we can move forward with clarity, I'm assuming that if literally 10's of millions of people who chose not to work were turned away from all types of the free medical coverage they get now, you are saying that Wags would still have to pay 2k a week for insurance. Is this correct? While I suspect I'll get a tap dance it really is a clear yes of no question.


He's paying a private insurance company. Last I heard, they don't pay for medical care for illegals or malpractice insurance for doctors (they may SELL it to doctors though...) or the cost of medical for welfare bums, and those in prison.

The cost of indigent care is blended into many things. Do you really think the $5 tylenol pill you will be given in the hospital really costs that much? Do you think that $4.99 of what is probably a one cent pill just gets shoved right into the pocket of some doctor? Its how they stay in business with all the unfunded mandates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfunded_mandate) from the feds. No one can be turned away. Those costs are passed on to all who do work, through over charges to your insurance company when you are sick, medicare, and the state. The costs of malpractice insurance is also part of a doctors bill. The bill your insurance pays. Just ask J. Edwards (http://www.fumento.com/fumento/edwards2007.html). Medicare pays very little although if you look at your check you'll see you pay quite a bit..

That's something I forgot earlier when I encourged folks to add up how much they really pay in Tax each year. Be sure to throw in SS and SDI also. And don't forget the fact that companies don't really pay any taxes at all. All those massive tax bills paid by corporate America are blended into what you pay when you buy the product. If you cheer when some lib like Kerry promotes making companies pay more tax, you are in fact cheering that you will be paying more tax. That cost is hard to figure but it is there.


Depends on how you read the budget. If you move ALL military-related expenses (veterans benefits etc) into the national defense portion it changes the balance considerably.

2008 Budget
Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,387 billion
MILITARY: 51% and $1,228 billion
NON-MILITARY: 49% and $1,159 billion


I don't know where you get figures for 2008 and I believe the total for the budget should have been trillion not billion, but whatever you meant you conviently changed what I said. I said all taxes federal state and local. But since you brought up it up here is (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/compassion.html) just the Federal health care expenditures to non working people. You will notice as you read that much of this requires dollar for dollar matching funds from the states. The total cost to the tax payer for 2006 (complete figures) was $67.2 billion just at the fed level, (doesn't include medicaid or ssdi costs) throw in the matching state funds and it would come near to doubling that. But it still is not enough. More is tagged on at the POS that affects your insurance costs. I'm sure you'll say that if that were not being paid out, Wag would still be paying 2k a week.

The budget just for Texas in 2006 was a total of $135.4 billion. Of that over 44 billion was spent just on human health services. The Texas prison budget (http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=14791) was 2.5 billion with 287 million of that was for health care costs. All the meth heads for instance with their rotten teeth get all that fixed for free.30% of these people are illegals. But that doesn't affect Wags 2k a week does it?


Yeah every time I go into a public library, those bums are all over the 1 or 2 five year old PCs. What's strange is these "bums" look an awful lot like school kids.

I live in a town of 12 thousand. There are 22 new computers in our Library on the fastest possible connection. If there are filters in your library blocking porn you can thank the recently improved SC (http://dc.internet.com/news/article.php/2084861) for that. The ACLU and even the ALA (American Library Association) fought hard all the way to the Supreme Court to block requirement of the Children's Internet Protection Act (CIPA) to require filters to keep porn off of library computers. Library's can refuse but they loose federal funds if they do. As a good liberal I'm sure you think those school kids should get to see this stuff. And if you only have 2, five year old computers at the library in your area, it sounds like all in your area want kids to see this stuff as your federal funding must have been cut off.

The prior Lib SC even ruled it OK to produce child porn (http://www.juvenilejustice.com/fpcisc.html) as long as it is computer generated or altered to only appear to use children. Even though the SC supported the CIPA, librarys only have to comply if they get federal funds. Many have chosen to not take the funds and continue to allow whoever to view porn.


Show me. Quotes from Fox New need not apply unless they are quoting a credible source. You know... research; not editorials.

I've showed you. Not a single link to Fox. (libs sure hate Fox. I guess a News org. that is not in lock step with the rest of the lib controlled media, is deemed a severe threat) And if any don't believe my links look your selves it all out there in a hundred places. The best place of course is your government web sites. But they are careful to crouch everything in deep legalese. They might upset the voter if they were actually able to understand all that crap.


So now you have deadbeats and commies under your bed too? Must get crowded with all those blood thirsty Muslims already under there.

Not under my bed. They have their own. I just have to pay for it. And yeah, those Muslim doctors (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19544193/) would love to be here, and I supect you would like it to.


You have added absolutely nothing to the debate other than thinly veiled racist rants. Not trying to defend Moore, he doesn't need it. Just tired of listening to the right-wing slime machine (not you... your sources). Too bad your constituency is getting wise to the game.

And there it is. Never fails, even though there are more whites on welfare than any other individual race, you libs always start yelling racist or homophobe (http://sandspuronline.com/article?id=267403) when things don't go your way.

Wow I have a constituency?

Again don't just take my word. A person would be a fool to believe what one person says. Look for it, research these things, the lib press hides, or like Moore confuses, stretches, or doesn't mention all the facts. But the facts are out there.

[celtictexan]

How can you not see that the poor get no health care (emergency care only) and the middle class pay too much in relation to income?

Do a google search on public health clinics. You will get 10,600,000 hits. The poor don't get just emergency care. You pay for all of it.

[sailsmen]

Do you understand how the "government program" works? I don't. But since you are the one evaluating it, please explain who they are (i.e. which program we are talking about), what they are supposed to do and how they failed, and then I can address it. What I have right now is "government programs suck," which is nothing more than opinion.[/QUOTE]

The Road Home Program.

To pay homeowners whose homes were damaged by Katrina. Up to $150,000 each.

Most homes were damaged due to the Corps of Engineers Levee system failing before the surge reached the design height on levees that the Corps knew was a faulty design before they built them, levees that were knowingly built 1.5' short and levees that were built of materials that were faulty. A levee system that was begun in 1964 and still has not been completed. A levee system that was not updated based on information that was learned after Camille. 1,500 citizens died as a result of this levee failure.:mad2:

You want a government that cannot build a proper dirt hill in 40 years to operate on my heart or my brain. Hell no.

I have spent hours on the phone in the past few days and have driven over 80 miles. Because the IRS has all my returns on all my accounts for the past 3 years in a cluster !@#$.

You want government to cut out the cancerous tumor in my father's bladder and make a new one out of his intestine? Hell no.

In the UK they do not operate on bladders with cancer, takes too long in the OR. They use radiation.

You want the government to diagnose my mothers rare form of Lymphoma and prescribe chemo which will kill her? Hell no.

You want the government to remove 1/3 of my fathers lung? Hell no.

In each of the above cases my parents were able to seek out and receive treatment while on the gov't/private paid program specialists that saved their lives.

Had we lived in the UK the odds are both would have been dead 10 years ago.

Insurance companies paid $24 Billion for Katrina in LA in one year.

[celtictexan]

By the way a search for the truth in all this, starts here (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html#articl ei). You will never understand the truth, untill you have a complete undestanding of the American Constitution and the men who created it. The greatest document ever created. Its a non stop pain in the ass to libs and their socialist agendas.

[duhtroll]

Evry measure of the defence budget I have seen shows that from 1946-1996 35% and 1996-2001 17% and 2001-2007 20%. Vetrans Benefits are 31%?

The primary purpose of Gov't is to provide defense.

Your 51% figure is way off. I have checked several sources including the CBO.

We just went through this. A few days ago I posted the 2007 budget in relation to military expenses - the post is attached below.

The problem is, to this administration, budgets mean nothing. so how about we look at actual expenditures?

previous post:

>I have to correct you there --

Wiki the federal budget allocations for 2007 to know that:

1) Military spending is still our greatest expenditure
2) It's still going up
3) We spend more on defense as a country than the next 14 countries on the list combined
4) Entitlements only amount to a fraction of the total military expenses.

In the budget itself, the military is still the highest single allocation. Sure, if you add up social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment and welfare, veterans benefits (the "entitlements") they would exceed the budgeted amounts for military spending.

The problem is that military spending far exceeds what's in the budget.

Really, social security should not be included in this list because it has its own funding source (for now anyway). If we remove SS, we also don't count that part of the budget.

I'm not the least bit opposed to veterans' benefits as they deserve them, but this also should be considered military spending to some degree. The more we spend on the military, the more veterans' benefits we will be paying, natch.

From wiki - highlights mine

2007 Military Budget

* $699 billion

U.S. Military Budget - DoD Base Spending: The U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) has the single largest budget of any government agency in the discretionary budget. Last year (FY 2006), Defense Department base budget expenditures were $411 billion, nearly half of net discretionary spending. This year (FY 2007), it has increased to $430 billion, still about half. Next year (FY 2008), it is projected to grow to $481 billion, or 52%. This so-called base budget is the basic level needed to keep the DoD in readiness.

U.S. Military Budget - War on Terror Base Spending : The War on Terror (WoT) incurs additional costs by other departments. When added to the DoD base spending, the amount comes to: $474 billion in FY 2006, which is 56% of net discretionary spending, $505 billion in FY 2007, and $554 billion in FY 2008, nearly 60% of discretionary spending. Total base budget for all non DoD/WoT departments is around $370 billion, which stays at the same funding level for all three fiscal years.

FY 2006 Supplemental Funding : The Defense Department base budget also does not include “one time only” costs attributable to the War on Terror, which are submitted as Supplemental Funding. In FY 2006, an additional $153 billion in Supplemental Funding was added to the base budget - the War on Terror received $120 billion, while $33 billion went primarily for Hurricane Katrina. As a result, 60% of last year's discretionary spending went to DoD/WoT.

FY 2007 Supplemental Funding : For FY 2007, $70 billion has already been approved, while the President’s FY 2008 Budget requests an additional $102 billion. If approved by Congress, total FY 2007 spending for DoD/WoT would be $673 billion, or 64% of the net discretionary budget. FY 2008 Budget Proposal : For FY 2008, the President has requested the following: The Defense Department Base Budget - $481 billion. WoT(non-DoD) Base Budget - $73 billion. Supplemental Funding for WoT - $145 billion. Total requested Dod/WoT spending is $699 billion, or 65% of total net Discretionary spending.

Source: OMB FY 2008 President’s Budget Charts and Tables.

Now That You Understand the U.S. Defense Budget, What Does It Mean?: In summary, the total DoD/WoT spending goes from $600 billion to $700 billion in FY 2006-FY 2008, and from 60-65% of total net discretionary spending. The President and the Department of Defense have said this is the minimum they need to continue to wage the War in Iraq and the War on Terror.

The amount that the government must borrow, either from the public in the form of bonds held by the Security Trust Fund, or by selling securities to other entities will add to the total public debt as of September 2006 (end of the Fiscal Year 2006), 8.5 trillion.<

So on top of what's budgeted we have another 8.5 trillion to pay off, and the war's not close to being over yet as far as costs go. Who knows what the final cost will be - maybe twice this? Maybe only 10 trillion? Either way, it doesn't look good financially.

[duhtroll]

Once again CT tries to muddy the waters with a bunch of unrelated crap. I guess he is right. Liberals must favor dissemination of child porn to kids and your grandmother.

I hear they all voted to deny oxygen to senior citizens, too.

We are not talking about the unemployed in this discussion. We are discussing working Americans who do not have health care.

The reason health care and health insurance costs so much is that is being run for profit. There is no argument here. The system is designed this way. Lawsuits do not help the situation in many cases (and yet in many cases they DO,) but they are not the primary concern as far as costs go.

Not every doctor gets 'A's in their coursework. There are some pretty crappy ones out there.

You're right about one thing. The facts are out there. Just not where you are looking.

Again, I say to you and to anyone who hates paying taxes:

Move to a country where they are not required. Taxes give you more than about which you have any clue.

Now, if the discussion is going to be about the film, then lets hear some real points. If not, stop trying to impress us with the "conservative rant of the day."


Ok just so we can move forward with clarity, I'm assuming that if literally 10's of millions of people who chose not to work were turned away from all types of the free medical coverage they get now, you are saying that Wags would still have to pay 2k a week for insurance. Is this correct? While I suspect I'll get a tap dance it really is a clear yes of no question.



The cost of indigent care is blended into many things. Do you really think the $5 tylenol pill you will be given in the hospital really costs that much? Do you think that $4.99 of what is probably a one cent pill just gets shoved right into the pocket of some doctor? Its how they stay in business with all the unfunded mandates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfunded_mandate) from the feds. No one can be turned away. Those costs are passed on to all who do work, through over charges to your insurance company when you are sick, medicare, and the state. The costs of malpractice insurance is also part of a doctors bill. The bill your insurance pays. Just ask J. Edwards (http://www.fumento.com/fumento/edwards2007.html). Medicare pays very little although if you look at your check you'll see you pay quite a bit..

That's something I forgot earlier when I encourged folks to add up how much they really pay in Tax each year. Be sure to throw in SS and SDI also. And don't forget the fact that companies don't really pay any taxes at all. All those massive tax bills paid by corporate America are blended into what you pay when you buy the product. If you cheer when some lib like Kerry promotes making companies pay more tax, you are in fact cheering that you will be paying more tax. That cost is hard to figure but it is there.



I don't know where you get figures for 2008 and I believe the total for the budget should have been trillion not billion, but whatever you meant you conviently changed what I said. I said all taxes federal state and local. But since you brought up it up here is (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/compassion.html) just the Federal health care expenditures to non working people. You will notice as you read that much of this requires dollar for dollar matching funds from the states. The total cost to the tax payer for 2006 (complete figures) was $67.2 billion just at the fed level, (doesn't include medicaid or ssdi costs) throw in the matching state funds and it would come near to doubling that. But it still is not enough. More is tagged on at the POS that affects your insurance costs. I'm sure you'll say that if that were not being paid out, Wag would still be paying 2k a week.

The budget just for Texas in 2006 was a total of $135.4 billion. Of that over 44 billion was spent just on human health services. The Texas prison budget (http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=14791) was 2.5 billion with 287 million of that was for health care costs. All the meth heads for instance with their rotten teeth get all that fixed for free.30% of these people are illegals. But that doesn't affect Wags 2k a week does it?



I live in a town of 12 thousand. There are 22 new computers in our Library on the fastest possible connection. If there are filters in your library blocking porn you can thank the recently improved SC (http://dc.internet.com/news/article.php/2084861) for that. The ACLU and even the ALA (American Library Association) fought hard all the way to the Supreme Court to block requirement of the Children's Internet Protection Act (CIPA) to require filters to keep porn off of library computers. Library's can refuse but they loose federal funds if they do. As a good liberal I'm sure you think those school kids should get to see this stuff. And if you only have 2, five year old computers at the library in your area, it sounds like all in your area want kids to see this stuff as your federal funding must have been cut off.

The prior Lib SC even ruled it OK to produce child porn (http://www.juvenilejustice.com/fpcisc.html) as long as it is computer generated or altered to only appear to use children. Even though the SC supported the CIPA, librarys only have to comply if they get federal funds. Many have chosen to not take the funds and continue to allow whoever to view porn.



I've showed you. Not a single link to Fox. (libs sure hate Fox. I guess a News org. that is not in lock step with the rest of the lib controlled media, is deemed a severe threat) And if any don't believe my links look your selves it all out there in a hundred places. The best place of course is your government web sites. But they are careful to crouch everything in deep legalese. They might upset the voter if they were actually able to understand all that crap.



Not under my bed. They have their own. I just have to pay for it. And yeah, those Muslim doctors (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19544193/) would love to be here, and I supect you would like it to.



And there it is. Never fails, even though there are more whites on welfare than any other individual race, you libs always start yelling racist or homophobe (http://sandspuronline.com/article?id=267403) when things don't go your way.

Wow I have a constituency?

Again don't just take my word. A person would be a fool to believe what one person says. Look for it, research these things, the lib press hides, or like Moore confuses, stretches, or doesn't mention all the facts. But the facts are out there.

[Logan]

By the way a search for the truth in all this, starts here (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html#articl ei). You will never understand the truth, untill you have a complete undestanding of the American Constitution and the men who created it. The greatest document ever created. Its a non stop pain in the ass to libs and their socialist agendas.

It's official. You sir, are a complete ****ing idiot. There, I resorted to name calling! Mooohahahahha, that's right, the socialist pig is also a namecaller... If I still owned this site, I'd wipe my ass with my finger while I pushed the delete key...

Word to your mother. :bs:

So much for constructive discussion. Ah... So liberating...

[duhtroll]

Yeah, I hear ya'. I'm getting pretty pissed that every time I call my congressmen, they are too busy doing brain surgery. THAT must be why they never get bills passed!

MAN, they are multi-talented!

If you don't catch the drift, I ain't explainin' it. :rolleyes:




The Road Home Program.

To pay homeowners whose homes were damaged by Katrina. Up to $150,000 each.

Most homes were damaged due to the Corps of Engineers Levee system failing before the surge reached the design height on levees that the Corps knew was a faulty design before they built them, levees that were knowingly built 1.5' short and levees that were built of materials that were faulty. A levee system that was begun in 1964 and still has not been completed. A levee system that was not updated based on information that was learned after Camille. 1,500 citizens died as a result of this levee failure.:mad2:

You want a government that cannot build a proper dirt hill in 40 years to operate on my heart or my brain. Hell no.

I have spent hours on the phone in the past few days and have driven over 80 miles. Because the IRS has all my returns on all my accounts for the past 3 years in a cluster !@#$.

You want government to cut out the cancerous tumor in my father's bladder and make a new one out of his intestine? Hell no.

In the UK they do not operate on bladders with cancer, takes too long in the OR. They use radiation.

You want the government to diagnose my mothers rare form of Lymphoma and prescribe chemo which will kill her? Hell no.

You want the government to remove 1/3 of my fathers lung? Hell no.

In each of the above cases my parents were able to seek out and receive treatment while on the gov't/private paid program specialists that saved their lives.

Had we lived in the UK the odds are both would have been dead 10 years ago.

Insurance companies paid $24 Billion for Katrina in LA in one year.

[sailsmen]

What I understand is you are twisting figures to make a point. Wiki is not a reliable source, false data is posted all the time.

Entitlements are not Defense.

It is standard Liberal Mantra to state Defense spending is more than 50%.

All depends on your definition of Defense. The FBI, Customs, EPA, Park Service, ATF etc. all have employees who are authorized to carry weapons so they are in defense.

Twist all you want Defense spending still goes from 35% to 20%.

Lets say we agree the CDC is part of Defense, ect. and it is 51%. Is Defense the primary purpose of Government?

Comparing us to all these other countries is irrelevant. Did you know the US produced 50% of all weapons used in WWII? Some would say that was unfair. We had 12 million in uniform. Some would say that was unfair. Maybe we should have only produced the average of the next 15 nations?

[celtictexan]

It's official. You sir, are a complete ****ing idiot. There, I resorted to name calling! Mooohahahahha, that's right, the socialist pig is also a namecaller... If I still owned this site, I'd wipe my ass with my finger while I pushed the delete key...

Word to your mother. :bs:

So much for constructive discussion. Ah... So liberating...

It's alright. ( the name calling) Thats what libs do. I'm not in the least offended. Your supporting citations are also indisputable. You win. I'm sorry.

[celtictexan]

I'd wipe my ass with my finger ..

By the way are you Muslim?

[Leadfoot281]

F paying taxes! I HATE paying taxes! Taxes suck!

The only way I'd actually enjoy paying them is if I knew that 100% of it went to the military.

For the record, I don't have health insurance. Don't want it, and don't need it. I've seen the Dr. once in the last 7 years. That cost me $170 and was for a bee sting.

My money has, on average, earned me nearlly 30% for over 14 years now. By the time I do actually do need a doctor, I'll have plenty of cash. In the mean time, I handle MY money FAR better than the government could ever dream of doing. Ever hear of compounding interest? (it's NOT taught in schools).

Now some fools think I want or need insurance? I guess this is what happens when trial lawyers run for office.

Government dependancy is worse than crack addiction. Just say no and you won't get hooked.

[celtictexan]

Liberals must favor dissemination of child porn to kids and your grandmother.

True according to the SC and the lib porn industry who brought the case fwd. I'm not so sure about the Grandmother part though.


I hear they all voted to deny oxygen to senior citizens, too.

Citations please! But then again the congress is the only enity with a lower apporoval rating than Bush.


We are not talking about the unemployed in this discussion. We are discussing working Americans who do not have health care.

Typical liberal. Always making excuses. Welfare bums just can't find a job!


The reason health care and health insurance costs so much is that is being run for profit. There is no argument here. The system is designed this way.

So now your against free enterprise also. You've left socialist and are now moving right into communism.


Lawsuits in many cases do not help the situation

Wow you think?


Not every doctor gets 'A's in their coursework. There are some pretty crappy ones out there.

Got to agree. It goes back to bringin in cheaper labor(not stopping illegals). Doctors educated in bum F*** egypt are cheaper. And they still vote Democrap. All are happy.


You're right about one thing. The facts are out there. Just not where you are looking.

So if the constitution isn't the place tell us where! Maybe Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Soviet_Constitution)?


Again, I say to you and to anyone who hates paying taxes:Move to a country where they are not required.

Good luck on that! Any suggestions?


Taxes give you more than about which you have any clue.

Yeah I've got a clue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggar_thy_neighbour). Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons) another More people not working, and more money out of my check. (and less I can do with my Marauder)


Now, if the discussion is going to be about the film, then lets hear some real points. If not, stop trying to impress us with the "conservative rant of the day.

You don't get it. As is obvious by Moores trip to Cuba this is about Socialism nothing more.

[Logan]

It's alright. ( the name calling) Thats what libs do. I'm not in the least offended. Your supporting citations are also indisputable. You win. I'm sorry.


By the way are you Muslim?

See now, at least he's a sense of humor... :banana2:

[duhtroll]

What I understand is you are twisting figures to make a point. Wiki is not a reliable source, false data is posted all the time.

You are absolutely wrong. I twisted nothing, and the wiki numbers only REINFORCE my point, as they are pretty damn close.

From the OFFICIAL WHITEHOUSE WEBSITE (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/tables.html):

Look at table 2 (labeled S-2), first four rows.

Total discretionary budget authority - $870.7 billion
Department of Defense - $439.3 billion
Homeland Security (non-DOD) - $33.1 billion
Other operations of government - $398.3 billion

Even *IF* you add the Homeland Security budget to the "non-defense" (which is a crock, because it is just another type of defense, and certainly not an entitlement) it *STILL* does not equal defense spending.

You'll also notice a lot of stuff in the "other operations" that are not entitlements, if you bother to read. (I doubt you will, because its easier to deny things exist.)

Also, these numbers doesn't include "supplemental" funding that can be voted in, and has been repeatedly. Deny that "supplemental" spending exists and Kerry had nothing to "flip-flop" over . . . (remember that lie?)

Then there's that $8.5 TRILLION we've already spent that wasn't budgeted. Spent, as in past tense. You can't ignore that in the computations of what "defense" is costing us.

You're wrong. Let me say it again. You're absolutely, incontrovertibly f***ing wrong.

Liberal mantra my a$$. Did I say you're wrong? Oh yeah, you're wrong.



Entitlements are not Defense.

No sh|t. Never said they were.


All depends on your definition of Defense. The FBI, Customs, EPA, Park Service, ATF etc. all have employees who are authorized to carry weapons so they are in defense.

I'm going with the US Government's definition of defense. Fine, add in all that other stuff and the number only goes UP, so you're digging a bigger hole.


Twist all you want Defense spending still goes from 35% to 20%.

Looks like your state needed to spend more on private tutors for you in remedial math. They have adult classes. . ..


Comparing us to all these other countries is irrelevant. Did you know the US produced 50% of all weapons used in WWII?

Uh, we also produced many the weapons we fought against in Afghanistan and Iraq. We supported the Afghanis against the USSR, and the Iraqis against Iran. I suppose you'll deny those two facts, too, but they are right there for all to see.

But who the am I kidding? You and CT don't read history so its pointless trying to discuss this or anything else.

[duhtroll]

Always making excuses. Welfare bums just can't find a job!

Since when are WORKING Americans "welfare bums?" Are you going to call the people who gave personal examples on this board "welfare bums?"

If they are having problems with health care, it must be their fault!

Sailsmen needs 5th grade math and you need 3rd grade reading.



So now your against free enterprise also. You've left socialist and are now moving right into communism.

Never said that. I said the reason costs are out of hand is that there is no check/balance system to the insurance companies. Which is the whole point of the film...

But of course, you haven't seen this film, so you're just talking out your a$$ as usual. We can't have a discussion because you're afraid to use a common point of reference. Instead you just spread hatred of anyone who isn't a member of your narrow demographic by posting dozens of unrelated, factless links. (we have commies, liberals, Muslims, how many more that you have blamed for everything from meteors to athlete's foot?)


Got to agree. It goes back to bringin in cheaper labor(not stopping illegals). Doctors educated in bum F*** egypt are cheaper. And they still vote Democrap. All are happy.

Uh, stats show that more people in the top tax brackets (higher income) vote GOP. Most doctors are in higher tax brackets. What was your point again?


You don't get it. As is obvious by Moores trip to Cuba this is about Socialism nothing more.

No, what I don't get is why I am trying to have an intelligent discussion with someone who has the reading comprehension level of a severely disabled child.

Go read the title of the thread again. Wait, never mind. To you it probably says something to the effect of "Gay Muslim Commie Liberal Frenchmen rule!"

[duhtroll]

There is an anarchists' compound guest list with your name on it somewhere.

"Compound interest isn't taught in schools!" :laugh: For someone who supposedly went to school, you obviously have no clue what is taught there. But hey, taxes pay for schools so that's obviously evil.

There are countries that don't make you pay taxes and you can give all the money to the military you like.

Here's hoping you don't have insurance the first time you have a major health issue. Maybe you'll learn something.


F paying taxes! I HATE paying taxes! Taxes suck!

The only way I'd actually enjoy paying them is if I knew that 100% of it went to the military.

For the record, I don't have health insurance. Don't want it, and don't need it. I've seen the Dr. once in the last 7 years. That cost me $170 and was for a bee sting.

My money has, on average, earned me nearlly 30% for over 14 years now. By the time I do actually do need a doctor, I'll have plenty of cash. In the mean time, I handle MY money FAR better than the government could ever dream of doing. Ever hear of compounding interest? (it's NOT taught in schools).

Now some fools think I want or need insurance? I guess this is what happens when trial lawyers run for office.

Government dependancy is worse than crack addiction. Just say no and you won't get hooked.

[celtictexan]

F paying taxes! I HATE paying taxes! Taxes suck!

The only way I'd actually enjoy paying them is if I knew that 100% of it went to the military.

For the record, I don't have health insurance. Don't want it, and don't need it. I've seen the Dr. once in the last 7 years. That cost me $170 and was for a bee sting.

My money has, on average, earned me nearlly 30% for over 14 years now. By the time I do actually do need a doctor, I'll have plenty of cash. In the mean time, I handle MY money FAR better than the government could ever dream of doing. Ever hear of compounding interest? (it's NOT taught in schools).

Now some fools think I want or need insurance? I guess this is what happens when trial lawyers run for office.

Government dependancy is worse than crack addiction. Just say no and you won't get hooked.

I'm pretty much with you although taxes for civil defence building interstates other civil infrastructure is ok also.

It's just the welfare and all that crap that bothers me.

[ParkRanger]

For the record, I don't have health insurance. Don't want it, and don't need it. I've seen the Dr. once in the last 7 years. That cost me $170 and was for a bee sting.

Sir, to you and your ilk, I believe your avatar says it all!

:burnout:

[celtictexan]

Most homes were damaged due to the Corps of Engineers Levee system failing before the surge reached the design height on levees that the Corps knew was a faulty design before they built them, levees that were knowingly built 1.5' short and levees that were built of materials that were faulty. A levee system that was begun in 1964 and still has not been completed. A levee system that was not updated based on information that was learned after Camille. 1,500 citizens died as a result of this levee failure.

Most homes were damaged because stupid people chose to build in an area that is below sea level. Those levies in that area were a stupid waste of tax payer money to start with.

New Orleans was filled with criminals all on welfare and the only shame of it is that they didn't all die. Instead they all got deported to various city's in Texas where in every case violent crime increased by around 40%.

And of course they all went right back onto welfare (and free medical). So as the government again wastes billions to rebuild a city under water, the bums who lived there, are else where drawing a free check while illegals are doing the work in New Orleans at minumum wage.

The republicon corporate welfare managers are happy, the democrap social welfare managers are happy, and the trial lawyers, paid billions by the working people, to defend all these criminals are happy.

And the MSM keeps peole ignorant by filling the lives of working people with importanr stuff like what Paris Hilton is doing.

Notice how upset Logan got at my mention of people reading and understanding the Constitution. There is a reason for that. The more you learn of that great document the more you'll be able to see the BS wool, the government has pulled over your eyes.

Notice I don't excuse either party? When all the upcoming politics really get going you'll see both side in wonderful pretty wrappings always smiling. But which ever get elected and when the pretty wrapping comes off you'll see the same old smelly turd.

[Dr Caleb]

There, I resorted to name calling! Mooohahahahha, that's right, the socialist pig is also a namecaller... If I still owned this site, I'd wipe my ass with my finger while I pushed the delete key...

Word to your mother. :bs:

So much for constructive discussion. Ah... So liberating...

You enjoyed that, way too much. ;)

I think the point many are missing here is; The United States already pays more per capita in socilaised ie:'Free' healthcare than any other G8 country. In Canada - we are ALL covered, and we spend less doing it. So the 'higher tax' angle doesn't work. Socialised healthcare in every other G8 country REDUCES spending on that care. There is no such thing as a $5 Tylenol or a $50 box of tissues you never saw.


I'm pretty much with you although taxes for civil defence building interstates other civil infrastructure is ok also.

It's just the welfare and all that crap that bothers me.

I don't understand. Socialized Fire and Police departments are Ok, Socialized roads and infrastructure are OK, but your health and welness isn't? The Government should protect you and your assests from fire, keep law and order, but you should die because you can't afford to help yourself? And if you lose your job because it was shipped overseas by government policy or because of debilitating injury - you are out in the street?

:argue:

A wise man once said - 'Taxes are the price we pay for civilized society.'

[celtictexan]

You enjoyed that, way too much. ;)

Actually I did notice he was anxious to delete me? Libs are always the first to want to censor someone. But only if they are against porn pervertion Socialism etc. And what sets him off? Mention of the constitution. So yeah it's kinda funny.


I think the point many are missing here is; The United States already pays more per capita in socilaised ie:'Free' healthcare than any other G8 country. In Canada - we are ALL covered, and we spend less doing it. So the 'higher tax' angle doesn't work. Socialised healthcare in every other G8 country REDUCES spending on that care. There is no such thing as a $5 Tylenol or a $50 box of tissues you never saw.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Canada has near the welfare population we have. I know you have no open border thru whick streme millions of illiterate, diesease ridden people each year. All spitting out babies like a friggin roman candle. All going straight to the welfare system while working underground and sending millions of dollars back to Mexico or where ever they come from. In a society where the vast majority of people are productive and citizens, socialised medicine might not be quite so bad but I know for a fact that you guys do have issues with major surgery and other things.


I don't understand. Socialized Fire and Police departments are Ok, Socialized roads and infrastructure are OK, but your health and welness isn't? The Government should protect you and your assests from fire, keep law and order, but you should die because you can't afford to help yourself? And if you lose your job because it was shipped overseas by government policy or because of debilitating injury - you are out in the street?

Those things are not socialist. All of that was laid out in the constitution.



A wise man once said - 'Taxes are the price we pay for civilized society.

Taxes are the price we paid for any society. Do you think communist korea or china collect no tax?

By the way Duh Troll, I'm still waiting for advice on where this tax free society you keep mentioning is.

[khc3]

No THANKS.
When I blew out my knee, I was completely, utterly crippled and in a WHOLE lotta pain.
I saw a surgeon within 24 hours, was x-rayed that same day, but had to wait until the following week for the MRI, as everything was closed on Christmas.
Last summer I ripped my quad tendon off my patella, and was able to get an MRI as soon as the swelling went down enough for my knee to fit in the ring. Surgery was scheduled for 4 days later.

I am self-insured and the total cost for surgical repair of my knee was quite reasonable, in my opinion. Of course, some folks think others should pay for their medical care; suffice it to say, I disagree.

I'll leave it at that.

[Shora]

You enjoyed that, way too much. ;)

I think the point many are missing here is; The United States already pays more per capita in socilaised ie:'Free' healthcare than any other G8 country. In Canada - we are ALL covered, and we spend less doing it. So the 'higher tax' angle doesn't work. Socialised healthcare in every other G8 country REDUCES spending on that care. There is no such thing as a $5 Tylenol or a $50 box of tissues you never saw.



I don't understand. Socialized Fire and Police departments are Ok, Socialized roads and infrastructure are OK, but your health and welness isn't? The Government should protect you and your assests from fire, keep law and order, but you should die because you can't afford to help yourself? And if you lose your job because it was shipped overseas by government policy or because of debilitating injury - you are out in the street?

:argue:

A wise man once said - 'Taxes are the price we pay for civilized society.'

Bravo!....

[duhtroll]

Just to be clear, the original quoted text you're replying to came from sailsmen, not from me. You two can argue this one.


Most homes were damaged because stupid people chose to build in an area that is below sea level. Those levies in that area were a stupid waste of tax payer money to start with.

New Orleans was filled with criminals all on welfare and the only shame of it is that they didn't all die. Instead they all got deported to various city's in Texas where in every case violent crime increased by around 40%.

And of course they all went right back onto welfare (and free medical). So as the government again wastes billions to rebuild a city under water, the bums who lived there, are else where drawing a free check while illegals are doing the work in New Orleans at minumum wage.

The republicon corporate welfare managers are happy, the democrap social welfare managers are happy, and the trial lawyers, paid billions by the working people, to defend all these criminals are happy.

And the MSM keeps peole ignorant by filling the lives of working people with importanr stuff like what Paris Hilton is doing.

Notice how upset Logan got at my mention of people reading and understanding the Constitution. There is a reason for that. The more you learn of that great document the more you'll be able to see the BS wool, the government has pulled over your eyes.

Notice I don't excuse either party? When all the upcoming politics really get going you'll see both side in wonderful pretty wrappings always smiling. But which ever get elected and when the pretty wrapping comes off you'll see the same old smelly turd.

[duhtroll]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Canada has near the welfare population we have.

Why? Didn't you look it up before posting it? Silly me. Of course you didn't!


Those things are not socialist. All of that was laid out in the constitution.

And right there, you have demonstrated that you have no idea what the word "socialist" means. Our public safety system in this country is most definitely socialist, as is our education system.

I would like to hear the explanation of how the Constitution is being subverted to the liberal whim though, especially since the president and supreme court are both conservative currently. Between Bush's signing statement explosion and conservative rulings coming out left and right nowadays, I'm all ears as they say.

"New Orleans was filled with criminals all on welfare!" Wow, the rabid stereotypes and misrepresentations never stop do they?

Have you ever been to New Orleans?

You're lucky you get to insult all these people from behind your keyboard. I'd be interested to see what would happen to you if you told Louisiana residents your views to their faces. Or any other group that has been lumped together with your universal hate rants.

Add New Orleans residents to the list of evil people.

I have a serious question, and its related to something you said earlier to me. Is there a group on this planet that you don't think is evil? I'm wondering how long these discussions will go before you say "everyone on this planet is evil and stupid except me." Every time you post we have a new group to be hated and feared.


By the way Duh Troll, I'm still waiting for advice on where this tax free society you keep mentioning is.

Pick any backwater, undeveloped area with no real form of organized government. Go live there and you can keep all your precious money. Taxes created the developed world. You guys seem to miss that in all your b|tching about having to pay taxes.

[BruteForce]

Is there a group on this planet that you don't think is evil?

I'm guessing Celtic Texans. :P

[duhtroll]

What's the tartan for that look like?


I'm guessing Celtic Texans. :P

[Dr Caleb]

Actually I did notice he was anxious to delete me? Libs are always the first to want to censor someone. But only if they are against porn pervertion Socialism etc. And what sets him off? Mention of the constitution. So yeah it's kinda funny.


On the contrary, Logan is anxious to verbalize his opinion - something not easy to do when you must maintain the air of neutrality. Logan commented on your post, because of what I'm about to say below . . .



Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Canada has near the welfare population we have. I know you have no open border thru whick streme millions of illiterate


You're wrong. We do have many people, from the lack of job opportunities in the North, and on reserves, to other countries stripping our fisheries bare in the east and west - such that many people rely on welfare and make-work projects to survive. Unlike the US, our 'unemployment' statistics include people on Welfare and Disability benefits. They don't get 'kicked' off after a certain time. Unemployment is around 6%. And falling. The Unemployment Benefits fund is so over surplused it's almost rude. Same with Old Age Pension fund.

The Canada - US border is still the longest undefended border in the world, and we have our share of illegal immigrants flowing north, gun and drug smugglers and the like.



, diesease ridden people each year. All spitting out babies like a friggin roman candle. All going straight to the welfare system while working underground and sending millions of dollars back to Mexico or where ever they come from.


Wow. Do you go birthday parties?

No, see, we have many jobs and no one to fill them. The trend now is for places like McDonalds to go to Mexico city, and hire people to flip burgers or pick fruit on temporary work visas for a couple years. So, not only do we welcome temporary workers, we pay them decent wages.



In a society where the vast majority of people are productive and citizens, socialised medicine might not be quite so bad but I know for a fact that you guys do have issues with major surgery and other things.


And, no, we don't have issues with major surgeries. If you want it, you will get it. We used to have a problem with the time it takes to get that surgery, but in my links above, we are improving that. Many surgery wait times are cut in half in the last 2 years. We can do that, because the motivation is not profit, but quality of care.



Those things are not socialist. All of that was laid out in the constitution.


Now, about your constitution (continued from above..). I've read it. Have you? Tell me the section or amendment that deals with Socialism. That's what Logan was calling you out about.

Socialism is a political philosophy, and is NOT incompatible with capitalism or democracy. Curiously enough, it's Unrestricted Capitalism that's incompatible with Democracy. Socialism isn't about nor related to Communism. Socilism is about the Governments responsibilities to the people. Communism is about the redistribution of wealth. The old saying goes, 'Under Communism - man does unto his fellow man. Under Capitalism, it's the other way around."

To quote a great man: "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go now from us in peace. We ask not your counsels nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were ever our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

Wow. Sounds like a commie liberal.



Taxes are the price we paid for any society. Do you think communist korea or china collect no tax?


Of course not. The difference in North Korea is, tax is set at 100%. In China, you mostly get to keep what you earn.

In Canada, it's closer to 40%, and in Alberta about 35%. We have no personal provincial tax, and no provincial sales tax. But somehow, we post *surplus* budgets every year. $8 Billion last year. $10B the year before. So we are still very much over taxed.

I'm a small business owner too, and I feel for these guys who can't get health insurance. I'm covered for the price of $68 a month, because Alberta is the last province to still charge premiums. In other provinces the additional cost is $0.

But I can't get additional health coverage, that covers things the government doesn't because I'm diabetic. I have to pay for medicine out of pocket. Drug prices here are regulated, because we don't believe that something required to survive should be priced beyond the means of those that need it to live, so my meds are about $90 a month. The Drug companies can make a good profit, just not a 'stuipd' profit.

Dental and eyecare all come out of my pocket. If I break a limb and get one of those inflatable casts - it's my dime. I get what I need. Luxuries cost extra, but aren't out of reach.

[Leadfoot281]

There is an anarchists' compound guest list with your name on it somewhere.

If by "anarchists' compound" you mean some one that is able to live without the governments teat in my mouth, you'd be right. And thanks. The way I see it, they work for me and not the other way around. That's the way I like it.

When I get my annual paycheck (farmers get paid once a year or so) I don't walk down the street and dish it out to others. The government does that. Too much of it at that.

"Compound interest isn't taught in schools!" :laugh: For someone who supposedly went to school, you obviously have no clue what is taught there. But hey, taxes pay for schools so that's obviously evil.

My friends wife (who graduated from school in Wisconsin) once asked me if they had houses in Alaska. She obviously didn't know. I assume she thought they all still lived in igloos or something. I'm sure she wasn't taught how to build wealth in her school.(I certainly didn't learn it there). I didn't call schools "evil". Putting words in my mouth only hurts your arguement.

There are countries that don't make you pay taxes and you can give all the money to the military you like.

Name one. Just one.

Here's hoping you don't have insurance the first time you have a major health issue. Maybe you'll learn something.

I've got money for three heart by passes this week if I need it. That cash came from investing in America, not government. Government has a very low return on the dollar. It's a poor investment to say the least.

At least the government still keeps cigarettes legal.(am I the only one here that smells a conflict of interest when it comes to "health care" and legal tobacco? Maybe that smell is from my beloved Camel Lights....:D )

For the record, Bush is NOT a conservative but he plays one on TV.

[BruteForce]

For the record, Bush is NOT a conservative but he plays one on TV.

But you conservatives put him in office so that makes him YOUR fuQ up, not mine. BTW, it looks like Bush is a Celtic Texan (http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2002/world_history_and_the_texan_mi nd_of_george_w_bush). Who'da thunk?

[celtictexan]

[quote=BruteForce;514824]This is so full of outright fabrications/lies that I don't know where to start.



Depends on how you read the budget. If you move ALL military-related expenses (veterans benefits etc) into the national defense portion it changes the balance considerably.

2008 Budget
Total Outlays (Federal Funds): $2,387 billion
MILITARY: 51% and $1,228 billion
NON-MILITARY: 49% and $1,159 billion




Evry measure of the defence budget I have seen shows that from 1946-1996 35% and 1996-2001 17% and 2001-2007 20%. Vetrans Benefits are 31%?

The primary purpose of Gov't is to provide defense.

Your 51% figure is way off. I have checked several sources including the CBO.


He's actually right for this time frame, as in since 9-11. He fails to mention (as M. Moore would) that we are now in war. Defence expenditures are way up over peace time expenditures.

[Logan]

Notice how upset Logan got at my mention of people reading and understanding the Constitution. There is a reason for that. The more you learn of that great document the more you'll be able to see the BS wool, the government has pulled over your eyes.

Ummm... The reasons I posted what I did were:

1. It was damn funny
2. You're a self-righteous tardo who wouldn't understand a thing being said if it came and shoved itself up your ass.


PS - Damn Straight Doc.

[duhtroll]

If by "anarchists' compound" you mean some one that is able to live without the governments teat in my mouth, you'd be right. And thanks. The way I see it, they work for me and not the other way around. That's the way I like it.

Nope. Google around. I mean the nutjobs that lock themselves into barricaded miniature fortresses to keep the "evil" whoevers out. You'd fit right in.


When I get my annual paycheck (farmers get paid once a year or so) I don't walk down the street and dish it out to others. The government does that. Too much of it at that.

And you know the rules for living in this country and yet you sit and complain. Go farm somewhere else if this bothers you.


My friends wife (who graduated from school in Wisconsin) once asked me if they had houses in Alaska. She obviously didn't know. I assume she thought they all still lived in igloos or something. I'm sure she wasn't taught how to build wealth in her school.(I certainly didn't learn it there). I didn't call schools "evil". Putting words in my mouth only hurts your arguement.

Uh, you said "compound interest isn't taught in schools." How is that putting words in your mouth? YOU said it.

I just said you're pretty gullible for believing it, and you just showed me that "knowledge" was based on one single person you have known -- someone who obviously has the IQ of a gnat.

See, just because someone doesn't learn something, it doesn't mean it wasn't taught. Or are you not personally responsible for your own education?


Name one. Just one.

Already answered this. Pick any desolate wasteland where there is no formal government and go farm there - there are several islands, ice floes (for a short time, anyway) . . .. I am sure you'll be very happy with no government in your face.

See, the truth is you have no idea just how much you personally owe to the government throughout the short history of this country. Yuo take it for granted and dismiss it, then complain that you have to pay taxes, which is moronic IMO.

It is our form of government that has allowed us to become the greatest nation on the planet. Yet you deride everything that is taxed. Those taxes paid for this country. If you don't want to pay them, quit whining on a car board in a thread about health care.

Move somewhere else or quit your b|tching.


I've got money for three heart by passes this week if I need it. That cash came from investing in America, not government. Government has a very low return on the dollar. It's a poor investment to say the least.

Really? These situations with complications can cost into the millions of dollars, which I doubt you have to spare.

But just for argument's sake let's say you DO have millions of dollars, since I don't see your bank statements. You have medical problems and spend much of your cash on health care, when for a few thousand in insurance you could have had the same care. Who's the good investor then?

Who does your work while you're laid up? No more income, either.

The simple fact is that you're gambling. It doesn't prove anything. Statistically you will have to deal with some sort of medical problem in your lifetime, and by then it will be a pre-existing condition as far as the health insurance companies are concerned. Good luck. You will need it.

Because you currently happen to be "up" at the tables doesn't mean you know what you're doing. It means you've been lucky.


For the record, Bush is NOT a conservative but he plays one on TV.

Funny. He seems to think he is, as does the party that elected him. They are jumping ship because they finally realized he is insane. It just took them a few years longer than the rest of us to realize it.

Who did you vote for in the last two presidential elections? I'm guessing your lack of support for Bush began very recently.

[duhtroll]

What time frame did you think I meant when I posted the budget for 2007?

And for the record there, Tex, military expenditures will be "up" long after this war is over, because we have a sh|tload of debt to pay off.

So even in future peace time, you'd be wrong, then. Sorry. Here's a copy of the home game.


[QUOTE]


He's actually right for this time frame, as in since 9-11. He fails to mention (as M. Moore would) that we are now in war. Defence expenditures are way up over peace time expenditures.

[1of327]

I can see just by looking at a few bits of input thyat this thread has struck some type of a nerve.,.
Without watching the movie, and only knowing of some of michael moore's thoughts.... I liken him to the ACLU and the one sided, Bleeding heart democratic party that crys about such things as the Ten commandments, Taking god out of the pledge of allegance, turning its back on social security, quickly pointing the finger like a child when something in the government goes wrong, global warming, and drives around in Hybrids, the most hanious crime of all....
There, I feel better.

[BruteForce]

You've learned your lesson well, grasshopper. Don't ever read or listen to anything that doesn't agree with the opinion you were given. Facts and figures are too confusing so ignore those too. Now go get yours and screw everybody else!

:tmi::tmi::tmi:


I can see just by looking at a few bits of input thyat this thread has struck some type of a nerve.,.
Without watching the movie, and only knowing of some of michael moore's thoughts.... I liken him to the ACLU and the one sided, Bleeding heart democratic party that crys about such things as the Ten commandments, Taking god out of the pledge of allegance, turning its back on social security, quickly pointing the finger like a child when something in the government goes wrong, global warming, and drives around in Hybrids, the most hanious crime of all....
There, I feel better.

[celtictexan]

Why? Didn't you look it up before posting it? Silly me. Of course you didn't!

You really get nasty when your losing don't you? Yes I did look it up and no they don't have anywhere near the non produtive hangers on that we have.
I also remember even M. Moore admitting that from bowling for columbine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_for_columbine).
I have, by the way seen all his wacko stuff. It's good to see lib garbage first hand. You know how to fight it then.


And right there, you have demonstrated that you have no idea what the word "socialist" means. Our public safety system in this country is most definitely socialist, as is our education system.

I did misuse the word a tad. I should have said socialism. I was just following the prior post. A socialist (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialist) is what you are, as you believe in socialism. Socialism is defines as (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism).

<TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dn vAlign=top>1.</TD><TD vAlign=top>a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dn vAlign=top>2.</TD><TD vAlign=top>procedure or practice in accordance with this theory. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent><TBODY><TR><TD class=dn vAlign=top>3.</TD><TD vAlign=top>(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I fail to see how the operations of a fire or police department comply with any of the above. You may be right about the education system though as it seems, especially in our Universities, to spend more time teaching socialism
than the ABC's. You know black, gay, lesbian, abortion, islam, condoms, needle exchange programs, yada yada all good. Western European culture especially White males all bad.


I would like to hear the explanation of how the Constitution is being subverted to the liberal whim though, especially since the president and supreme court are both conservative currently. Between Bush's signing statement explosion and conservative rulings coming out left and right nowadays, I'm all ears as they say.


"New Orleans was filled with criminals all on welfare!" Wow, the rabid stereotypes and misrepresentations never stop do they?

Several people form that area have already said the same thing in this tread. Just go back and look. But if you really want to test it out, I'd be happy to drive you into the middle of NO late at night sometime and wait for you to walk out. Chances are we would never hear from you again.


Have you ever been to New Orleans?

Many times although I avoided certain areas.


You're lucky you get to insult all these people from behind your keyboard. I'd be interested to see what would happen to you if you told Louisiana residents your views to their faces. Or any other group that has been lumped together with your universal hate rants.

Like I said go back and read what some of these folks have said.


Add New Orleans residents to the list of evil people.

They are mostly Texas residents now.


I have a serious question, and its related to something you said earlier to me. Is there a group on this planet that you don't think is evil? I'm wondering how long these discussions will go before you say "everyone on this planet is evil and stupid except me." Every time you post we have a new group to be hated and feared.

I fear all who fail to follow the constitution as originally concieved. I fear all who call it a living document. There is a way to change the constitution. Its called ammending (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlev.html). It requires that 3/4 of the population agree with it.

In response to your one post above, Libs no its impossible to change to socialism in this way. So they have stacked the courts with like minded folks. So I fear judges that legislate from the bench pushing a socialist agenda. I fear Judges that award millions to an attorney and his client who goes to McDonalds gets hot coffe puts it in her crotch gets burned.


Pick any backwater, undeveloped area with no real form of organized government. Go live there and you can keep all your precious money. Taxes created the developed world. You guys seem to miss that in all your *****ing about having to pay taxes.

No. Good men and women working hard and following just law build the developed world. But now lazy people seek to tear it down.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship." (http://www.promethea.org/Misc_Compositions/TextVersions/text_CritiquesofDemocracy.html ) Alexander Tyler (regarding the fall of the Athenian Republic)

This is what I fear. An end to the best country ever created in the long history of people. The medical situation in this country is in crisis. I've outlined the many many reasons. I've provided links to experts in all the fields associated with medicine. I've shown the effects of trial lawyers. I've shown the effects of such a large non working community. I've shown what the American Medical Association (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/17793.html) has said about Sicko. Each link has been pronounced as lies from Fox news by our socialist friends in here.

Decide yourselves. Sit idly in front of the TV engrossed in football, or read the constitution both federal and the one of your state. Learn what it says down to the last detail. Then hold your public officials accountable. They don't care about anything but where the next vote comes from. Few in government on either side of the isle have honor. The growth of those who will vote only for those who promise more freebies is exponetial. Soon we will be in socialist government. From there it is a short trip to a dictatorship.

It would be thought a hard government that should tax its people one tenth part.

Benjamin Franklin
We pay closer to 60%

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretions.
Thomas Jefferson, 1802
The most effectual engines for [pacifying a nation] are the public papers... [A despotic] government always [keeps] a kind of standing army of newswriters who, without any regard to truth or to what should be like truth, and put into the papers whatever might serve the ministers.

Thomas Jefferson to G. K. van HogendorpOct. 13, 1785. (*) ME 5:181, Papers 8:632 (must have seen M. Moore movies)

Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

[I]George Bernard Shaw, Liberty

As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air however slight lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.

William O. Douglas, Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court

[MERCMAN]

Well, to paraphrase a line from the musical "Oklahoma"

We've gone about as fur as we c'n go!(Kansas City)

Lets get back to something more "apolitical"

On a side note, its the first thread I ever closed where Logan has posted :rofl: