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Master
08-03-2007, 05:39 AM
Hey folks,
In light of a speeding ticket I had gotten a couple of weeks ago, it occurred to me that we should be setting up a forum where we can pool information about the various devices used by law enforcement, their limitations, and their operating requirements.
As I was (and still am) very much convinced that that officer in this case was mistaken about tagging me, I began to research operation of the machines used in law enforcement. This information will be used to disassemble his case against me in court. Some of the most interesting things that I found are:
1) unit must be pointed at a vehicle that is moving in a straight line toward the operator and the vehicle being surveyed must have a visible perpendicular surface
2) The operator must be supporting the targeting device either on a tripod or against the vehicle to ensure accuracy on target.
3) The operator should carefully note the conditions at the time of the targeting (distance, angle, viewplane, details of targeted vehicle) unless an add-on device that does this for the operator is connected to the system.
4) The angle at which the targeted vehicle is travelling with respect to the officer is critical. As the angle drifts from 180 degrees, the angle of incidence adds error ( refered to as cosine error) to the reading. Remember vector analysis from grade 10 physics? cosine is "X" component, sine is "Y" component. If you are at 180 degrees, sin180 = 0, cos180 = 1 therefore viewed velocity is 1 x noted speed and no correction is required. As you drift from 180 degrees, the error sets in.
5) The "Spread" of the LIDAR's beam at one kilometer is almost 3 metres. This means that an unsupported LIDAR pointed at two or more vehicles at a range of approximately one KM could be picking up a car in either of two lanes of traffic (even supported, this could be the case) and the device will return the faster speed, leaving the operator of the LIDAR unsure as to which vehicle he is targeting.

In my case, the officer did just about everything in the book wrong. If anyone is interested, I can tell the story, but that isn't the intent of this thread.
What I'd like to see are references and links to operators manuals. I'd like to hear stories about court cases that were won or lost and the legal details that were in play. This is something we can all use should we end up in court fighting a ticket. It could be a phenomenal resource.
Think of it like this: The police would have you think that LIDAR is a magical device that is both 100% accurate, 100% precise, and does not need to obey the laws of physics. None of this is true. LIDAR is a basic electromechanical device that has limitations and requires a specific set of guidelines to be followed for reliable results.
Ask a lab tech if they have to perform experiements with an electron microscope carefully, or if, becuase its a high-tech, million dollar device, and gomer could walk in and get good results with it. LIDAR is no different.
Anyone on board for this forum?

DEFYANT
08-03-2007, 05:53 AM
You might want to specify Canadian residents and or LEOs.

A tripod? LOL, not in the USA. There are a few other things there that are "off"..

Master
08-03-2007, 06:13 AM
Feel free to share!
The idea of having the unit supported is this: Just because the unit is emitting a laser beam doesn't mean it is going to impart any more ability unto its operator. Compare a handgun fired on the range by an officer over say 25 yards. The spread, if he is good, may be only an inch or two. He is likely this precise. Sandbag the weapon for stability (as you might do when setting the sights) and the precision goes up. Accuracy will be as good as the weapon's manufacture, precision will be as good as the method of repeatability will allow.
The LIDAR, really, is no different. If it were locked in place, then it would be both accurate and precise. Take away the rigid mounting, however, and precision will be only as good as the operator. Go back, now, to the firing range. The best shot on your squad might have as little as a one inch spread over 25 yards. Take that degree of precision and lengthen the distance to 1000 yards. The spread is now 40 inches. Doesn't matter if its a bullet or a laser beam. The degree of standard deviation from the mean point is +/- 20 inches. Couple this with the natural spread of the beam of light over a thousand yards and you could be spotting a car in either of two lanes quite easily, even though through the viewfinder you might think you are shooting the vehicle in the left or right hand lane.
Make sense?

CBT
08-03-2007, 11:11 AM
Interesting stuff. I, too, got one I didn't earn once. It is very hard to maintain your composure when you know they are full of crap. But, I look at it like this, it was just cosmic payback for all the times I didn't get a ticket. When I do get caught, I don't even get mad. I was speeding, got caught, no sense being mad at someone for doing their job. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels your pain.

Master
08-03-2007, 11:20 AM
Never get mad, of course. That is key. The guy who hops up and down making a scene gets remembered. I never mind getting a deserved ticket and look at it the way you do - cosmic payback. However, his attitude sucked, his knowledge of physics was that of a fifth grader, and he was just plain incorrect in his judgement. I'm going to court on principle, not because of money or points - I can afford both. I'll lose twice as much in pay by going to court as the ticket is worth. I'll only be sad if he doesn't show up!
PS
The point of this forum is for shared knowledge so that people have a pool to draw on should they get a ticket for something they didn't do, or feel they shouldn't be convicted of. Knowledge is Power!

Richy04
08-03-2007, 01:39 PM
The angle at which a lidar or radar signal is emitted to hit your vehicle will determine the final reading at the officers set. This is known in radar terminology as the "Cosine effect". It works in your favor, the farther off center the officer is, the lower the return reading.
So if you argue that point, you are a ..... Fill in the blank..

In my experience, I used to go to court with 26 cases every week all claiming not guilty. The way I looked at it is the docket was filled with 26 liars. I only wrote heavy hitters so where is the mistake being made? I always despised officers who wrote people 5mph-10mph over the limit, they are hypocritical sissies, there are plenty of dangerous drivers out there negating the need to stop the Joe average speeder..

RCSignals
08-03-2007, 03:48 PM
You might want to specify Canadian residents and or LEOs.

A tripod? LOL, not in the USA. There are a few other things there that are "off"..

I've seen the RCMP in Canada standing on the side of the road using a tripod.
It does look funny.

Then again I've also seen them, wearing an orange vest, step out into the road and wave a speeder over.