under drive pulley question

[greggtsr]

I put a set of Reinhart U/D pulleys on my marauder a while ago,along with other mods from Reinhart.What im wondering is ever since i put on the pulleys my voltage drops down to about 11 on the gauge and everything dims when i really push the car hard.Is this because its now spinning the alternator faster under higher rpms.Its still got the stock pulley on it.I put on what ever came in the kit from Reinhart.Thanks alot for all your help.

[2003 MIB]

I'm no expert- but I think you might have it backwards. Assuming the RPM is the same for a large pulley and an underdrive pulley- the alternator would be less turns not more than stock. That would explain the charging output drop from the alternator. Right?
I'm contemplating this mod. too and would be interested in hearing from some folks who know.

[TAF]

I have the Steeda u/d pullies from Dennis. Mine never drops below 12 no matter how much I'm pulling at idol...radio, a/c, rear air-pump comes on. Could it possibly be the 700W amp you're trying to run?

I highly recommend these to ALL.

[greggtsr]

I dont think it is the amp.It only really does it under hard acceleration,with the amp on or off it still does it.

[Mikeenh]

I believe Dennis has the chip programmed to disengage the alternator at WOT for more HP.

[2003 MIB]

Mine doesn't do that but maybe I haven't noticed because I don't have the underdrives...

[LincMercLover]

Originally posted by Mikeenh
I believe Dennis has the chip programmed to disengage the alternator at WOT for more HP.

How can you disengage an altenator? :confused:

[greggtsr]

Well i guess i should ask if anyone else that has the pulleys if this happens to them too?

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by LincMercLover
How can you disengage an altenator? :confused:

I heard the A/C compressor disengages at WOT...never heard that about the alternator, although I thought I read here somewhere that the alternator pulley was a special design, which was why we don't need to change it out with the others...

[2003 MIB]

A/C compressor has a clutch that can be dis-engaged at WOT- my CVPI had one. No clutch on the alternator.

[FordNut]

I believe the stock program even disengages the alternator at WOT. It does it electrically rather than by using a clutch. At least that's what I read in these forums several months ago. Search and you should find it in some old posts.

[WolfeBros]

Sorry boys........but the alternator does disengage at WOT. It makes perfect sense. Sounds like his battery is a tad weak too. This hot weather will make them go south fast. We need a Ford wrench to back me up.

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by WolfeBros
We need a Ford wrench to back me up.

You want to get hit with a 5lb hammer? :lol:

[Effster]

alternator DOES shut off after 5200 rpm,and the gauge you are reading is tied to it,not the battery.the computer controls the whole show

[2003_MM_FYRE49]

Ok, as long as we are on the subject of underdrive pullies, who has installed their own Steeda pullies? I am interested in finding out how many, and which pullies were replaced. I would also like to know what tools you needed to get the job done. Thanks for the help

Tim :fire: 49

[cyclone03]

Originally posted by 2003_MM_FYRE49
Ok, as long as we are on the subject of underdrive pullies, who has installed their own Steeda pullies? I am interested in finding out how many, and which pullies were replaced. I would also like to know what tools you needed to get the job done. Thanks for the help

Tim :fire: 49

well it's your lucky day.
the steeda box will contain 3 pulleys,you will only install the crank and water pump pulleys.Our stock altermator pulley has a built in clutch,plus it's nearly the same size as the steeda.

Your life will be easier if you unbolt the radiator fan shroad and raise it about 4 inches.You'll need to dismount the resivor s for the power steering and the raditor overflow bottle.
You will need a 3 bolt type puller to get the crank pulley damper ass'y off,and a torque wrench to put it all back together.

I have a set but I removed them because I'm not ready to chip my car to get the idle rpm up so the battery voltage stays above 12v with the A/C on MAX.
YMMV on that but I work out side,when I get in my Car the ONLY setting on the A/C is MAX!!!

[TripleTransAm]

I couldn't find any specific wiring in the wiring manual that deals with this, but the shop manual itself does specifically indicate that the Marauder 4.6L 4V engine is equipped with a One-Way-Clutch in the pulley. It claims to 'temporarily disengage the generator rotor from the front end accessory drive system during high acceleration/deceleration rates on the engine..."

The acceleration/deceleration thing would lead me to believe the entire setup is purely mechanical and perhaps not PCM controlled, but I can't prove or disprove that just yet (haven't found the wiring circuit for it).

On top of that, the alternator itself is controlled by the PCM, in that it decides what the voltage regulator is doing. If the PCM doesn't like the way the alternator is producing power, it trips the 'charging problem' light on the dash (not the voltmeter).

The voltmeter itself is simply sensing system voltage (ie. the battery and alternator being in parallel, they are at the same voltage at all times). So if the voltmeter is reading low, the whole system is low (whether it's the fault of a bad battery bringing down the system or a dying alternator having weakened the battery).

[2003_MM_FYRE49]

Thanks 3TA, I really appreciate your quick responce. Do you remember what you torqued the dampner on to? Thanks again

Tim :fire: 49

[TripleTransAm]

I didn't. I'm on the stock pulleys, and probably will remain so for a while. I've never been a big fan of underdrive pullies because of the whole charging and/or A/C situation, and I'm not a fan of upping the RPM because in some cars it makes it feel like it's riding up against the brakes. Just my personal preference, that's all. I do understand how they can really increase the 'zippiness' of the engine, though, and I'm not knocking the mod itself.

[TripleTransAm]

From what I can see in the shop manual, the procedure for the crankshaft pulley tightening is:

[list=1]
Tighten bolt to 66 lb-ft
loosen bolt one full turn (... ? that's an interesting bit)
tighten to 37 lb-ft
tighten an additional 90 degrees.
[/list=1]

Honestly... I'm not making this up! (see page 303-01b-103 in shop manual!)

[LincMercLover]

I believe that! You should have seen the proceedure on the head for that V6 Cougar I replaced the gasket on! Tighted to Xft-lbs, loosen 3/4 of a turn, do all the rest of these, hop on one foot, tighten to Yft-lbs, spit on hand and loosen a final 30 degrees... Urgh! :uzi:

[TripleTransAm]

:lol:

[2003_MM_FYRE49]

Thanks for all your help 3TA. It is greatly appreciated.

TIm :fire: 49

[JLHARVEY1]

If during high acceleration rates the alternator is disengaged, how does everything get power (a/c, stereo, headlights, spark plugs, etc...)? The battery powers everything during those situations?????

[martyo]

Originally posted by JLHARVEY1
If during high acceleration rates the alternator is disengaged, how does everything get power (a/c, stereo, headlights, spark plugs, etc...)? The battery powers everything during those situations?????

Yep! And, why not?? It's no biggy. That's what it's there for.

[greggtsr]

Thanks guys for all your info.As always its a big help

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by JLHARVEY1
If during high acceleration rates the alternator is disengaged, how does everything get power (a/c, stereo, headlights, spark plugs, etc...)? The battery powers everything during those situations?????


Yeah, sounds pretty radical. When you start to reach the limits of wringing power out of a motor in a safe, economical and emissions-friendly way, the next best thing is to cut parasitic losses. Not only does disengaging the alternator clutch free up the pulley from having to deal with the mechanical drag (the weight of the rotating parts and internal friction) but you also don't experience the electrical drag on the belt. It's easy to forget that the alternator is basically having to *force* current through the system through all the accessories that are online. This forcing of electricity works its way back into a mechanical form through electromagnetic drag within the alternator, and is eventually seen as a physical load on the belt.

That's why whenever you're in a situation where you need most power and/or most fuel economy, turn accessories off. The engine management systems won't need to feed the engine more fuel and air to maintain the same RPM and it all adds up to that extra tenth on the 1/4 mile or a few extra miles to get you safely to a gas station.

Marty's right, it's no big deal if the battery has to pitch in to help the system stay alive during those brief high-acceleration blasts (notice they say high acceleration, not high speed... I wonder if the clutch kicks back in once engine RPM is stable no matter how high it is). In fact, this is probably no different than the situations where you have the defogger on, seat heaters on, fan on MAX, radio blasting, headlights and fogs on, and you roll down the windows while braking (ie. brake lights). The battery's gotta help there as well. (provided the battery's in good shape).

So this seems to make it more important for us to make sure we keep our batteries in good shape, for performance reasons. A weakened battery might compromise WOT performance. (not to mention that a bad or missing battery can wreak havoc on a PCM, since it serves as a voltage 'smoother'... the noisy voltage from the alternator might fry the PCM if you ran the car with the battery disconnected).

[Ross]

I've talked to a couple of speed shops about underdrive pulleys and the issue of "undercharging" by the alternator at idle. What I'm hearing is that if you leave the original alternator pulley while changing others, there won't be any change in charging at idle. This is also a concern of mine because my AC gets a real workout in Houston. Any comments on this since I'm considering the pulleys too?

[Marauder57]

I think this question fits in here somewhere....so from this thread it seems having a good well charged battery is important (not that it would not be anyway)....so if for some reason someone upgrades to a "better" battery or has to get a new one....AND THEY HAVE MODS.

Does the power interupption of no battery cause any problems for chips, flashes etc? :confused:

[TripleTransAm]

Well, the change in charging should come from a change in alternator rotation speed. Even though the PCM has a hand in determining how hard the voltage regulator is working, I guess when it rotates below a certain speed the alternator just can't come up with the minimum requirements (funny how the PCM doesn't kick on the 'charging' warning light on the dash... perhaps the PCM threshold is much lower?)

Anyway, the rotation speed of the alternator comes about as a ratio of the pulley sizes between the one that's driving the belt and the one that's being driven. So if the crankshaft pulley is 2x the circumference of the alternator pulley, the alternator's gotta rotate twice as fast to cover the same linear belt distance as the crank pulley does.

So if you change the crank pulley to a smaller one and the alt pulley to a larger one, you get a 'gear reduction' that makes it easier for the crank pulley to pull the belt and rotate the alt pulley, but the alt pulley's gonna be rotating much slower. If you only change the crank pulley to the smaller unit, you're still going to be pulling less belt per revolution as compared to before so the alt will still be rotating slower, only not as slow as if you'd changed the alt pulley as well.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Marauder57
Does the power interupption of no battery cause any problems for chips, flashes etc? :confused:


You have to reset your clocks. ;)

Actually, the chip or reflash won't be affected, same as the way the stock calibrations don't vanish when you remove the battery from the car. What WILL disappear is the dynamic adjustments that the PCM learns based on the way you drive, the environment (air content, elevation, etc.), local fuel quality, build and component tolerances, wear, etc.

As you drive, the PCM looks up what fuel/timing/etc. to use based on outside input (pedal position, speed, gear, air quantity being ingested, etc.). It then monitors the exhaust (using the O2 sensors) and then makes adjustments and remembers them, FOR THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION. If you suddenly switch to another type of fuel and the exhaust O2 content changes drastically, then the PCM will slowly tweak itself to take that fuel into account and forget how it operated before in that situation.

With the battery removed, the PCM forgets these interrim adjustments. So, for the first few miles after reconnecting the battery, the car may not behave the same as it used to, as the PCM relearns how to deal with the environment its in.

In the case of my GTA, I have some sort of tiny vacuum leak that manifests itself only at idle. You can see in the adjustment tables that the PCM has learned to adapt for that extra air at idle by richening things up... at cruise, the tables show no adjustment necessary. If I was to remove the battery, the PCM would forget this, and for the first few miles afterwards, the car would exhibit some leanness at idle until the PCM would relearn that particular scenario.

Hope this makes sense... (but the point is that your baseline tables are always safe).

[martyo]

First hand experience here.

The car does undercharge slightly from time to time after the underdrive pulleys are installed. However, this is an "at idle" condition only. The car could idle for hours in this state with the battery acting as a back up for the short fall. So, unless you sit at idle all day with "everything" on, how much of an issue is this really going to be? Remember the alternator throws a pretty fast charge into the battery, so any discharge of the battery is rapidly replaced once you come off idle. I tried increasing the idle speed to compensate for this but did not like the effect of the higher idle speed on the driveability of the car, so I would say don't take that approach -- Dennis, feel free to kick my azz on this issue here if you want. The only downside is that you may slightly shorten battery life because of the slight increase in the charge/discharge cycle.

I do a fair amount of work on boats which are notorious for their demands on the electrical system for all of the "house" needs (fresh water pumps, radar, gps, lights, TV, etc.). You'd be surprised how much you can get out of a 12 volt battery as long as it gets charged back up before it becomes too depleted.

FYI: I am in the process of mapping the voltage output in my MM which I believe I will be able to post here in a few days (if I can ever get out of this stinking office!). Then you can all see for yourselves.

IMHO: Get the pulleys, enjoy the benefits and stop worrying the downside, as it is not really there.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by martyo
You'd be surprised how much you can get out of a 12 volt battery as long as it gets charged back up before it becomes too depleted.


Marine, or other deep cycle batteries: yes. Regular auto batteries... I've read they REALLY don't like to work too hard.

So maybe for some peace of mind, one should consider a deep-cycle battery when going for a set of pulleys? I hear the name Optima fairly often...

[martyo]

Let's see what my voltage mapping shows....

[Marauder57]

I must say this has been a very educational thread in general...I must say I am very impressed with the knowledge on this board....I am not a gearhead by any stretch.....but by osmosis I have gained enough knowledge to accurately say "Yes".....not really sure what the question is though????

But seriously very educational....they say you learn something new every day....I learn something new every day HERE.....so I must be learning about 2 somethings everyday.....Thanks MM.net you have increased my knowledge...and I did not even need a new Chip! :D

[TripleTransAm]

Marty, just to keep things clear, I'm not disagreeing with you about the battery drain being a small percentage of the overall operation. I'm only thinking of extreme circumstances like when I was hot lapping the car at the track a few weeks ago. I have no idea how a normal battery would do in this situation (especially considering I'll usually sit in the staging lanes with the fan blowing hot, to help cool the engine some).

Looking forward to your voltage mapping...

[cyclone03]

Originally posted by Ross
I've talked to a couple of speed shops about underdrive pulleys and the issue of "undercharging" by the alternator at idle. What I'm hearing is that if you leave the original alternator pulley while changing others, there won't be any change in charging at idle. This is also a concern of mine because my AC gets a real workout in Houston. Any comments on this since I'm considering the pulleys too?

I installed my pulleys after Fun Ford Houston,Got a great price on them $140 for Steeda's.I think that was March.They didn't stay on tell May.I spend about 15-20 every weekday waiting for my kids at school A/C Max,ideling in park the voltage drops below 12v in that situation.
Take the above anyway you want,thats what happened with my car.

On the otherhand I could feel the differents in acceleration.

[martyo]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
I'm only thinking of extreme circumstances like when I was hot lapping the car at the track a few weeks ago. I have no idea how a normal battery would do in this situation (especially considering I'll usually sit in the staging lanes with the fan blowing hot, to help cool the engine some).

Steve: Obviously you like to tinker as much (or more) as I do. Load test an old battery that you have laying around. Then throw a fan on it for one-half hour. Load test the battery again. I think you will see that unless the batter y was completely beat to begin with, the battery will still have plenty of umphh.

I stand by my position that unless you are doing major amounts of idling, you have nothing to worry about.

[SergntMac]

Bravo MartyO...Carry on.

This dog won't hunt no more, quit kicking it in the butt, it ain't gonna move any more. Y'all are dead wrong on this, deal with it.

MartyO has been more that patient in saying so. I'm not that patient, get up off of this issue, you're gonna lose.

I am drawing on my experience with two 2003 Marauders, in different trims. I may blow it out my azz from time to time here, but this topic has been run down the bone and IMHO, it's run out of air too. Y'all bought Marauders, "dim lights at idle" comes with the car, period. Here's the deal...Read it and weep.

My first experience was modding my own bone stock Marauder that came to wear two different sets of under drive pulleys. I'm trying to keep this a short story, K?

The first set was the first edition Reinhart custom design, and the second set was the Steeda pulleys.

I drive with my lights on always, and full lights on too, not DRLs. It's been my habit for over 35 years because I did a lot of motorcycle stuff as a kid, and y'all never see us no matter what we did to yell ahead "hey, I'm a car too!" So now, if I'm moving forward, I have my all or my lights ON.

With my own bone stock MM and before any under drive pulleys got installed, my lights would dim and my OEM voltage meter would drop to somewhere around 11-12v. My idle was set around 600 RPM.

I could improve this condition by feathering my throttlle up to 8, maybe 900 RPM, but I was also loading the brakes too. Nonetheless, the flickering and low voltage gauge went away. My dash mounted "idiot light" never showed. Never. That's a whole 'nother threshold, eh?

Once I installed my Reinhart custom under drive pulleys, same thing. Voltage drop to 11-12v, which improved by feathering the idle, never a warning light.

Once I switched to the Reinhart/Steeda underdrive pulleys (because they performed as well as original set, without being so bling-bling obvious, and I liked the steath appearance over the first edition) dim lights at brake idle remained, and I could still improve that condition with a slight increase of RPM at idle.

My present Marauder is the Kenny Brown build, #1x, It has no under drive pulleys from any one.

I still see dim lights at brake idle, that I can improve with a slight increase in throttle. Oh hum...

My MM does have this Vortex supercharger thingy hanging off it's power nose, and my lights still dim at idle, and I can still improve that by feathering the throttle up to 8-900 RPM...But what I don't have, are under drive pulleys...Go figure?

Throughout all of this, I have had a CarChip EX watching my "voltage back." NEVER, I mean NEVER, did I fall into a state of discharge. I NEVER ran under 12v ouput. Never...How else can I say this? Y'all are chasing a tired dog...

So...IMHO...Y'all are looking at dim lights and a poor reading on your OEM voltage gause. So have I. All I can say, or ask, is that maybe your OEM gauge is too sensitive? Or, maybe y'all are too sensitive to what y'all see from this here gauge....What ever.

Any one here got a re-occurring "dead battery" problem?

I haven read that yet, least not amplified as a lone "brain twister" issue, where the recharge circut was found faulty, maybe "undersupported." I've read a lot of concern on this, but I haven't read a lot of blame.

MartyO is right and y'all need to listen to him.

Stop re-engineering this automobile. It is what is it is, K? Stop yelling "fire!" at the hint of an odor that just may be someone down your land burning leaves... Go cook a potato, give this a rest.

Rock on MartyO, please prove me wrong with your extended study?

[martyo]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Rock on MartyO, please prove me wrong with your extended study?

Actually Mac, I don't think I will prove you wrong, which I guess was our collective point in the first place, Eh?

[cyclone03]

Well Sgt.
I know you feel we're killing this old dog but.................
Maybe I should say as the guy who had em in and removed them I had a very slow start after letting the car idle with the voltage showing below 12.
I want to reinstall my pulleys because I felt I could feel a positive change,but until I can raise the idle they sit in the box.
I don't want to have to think about this car,the pulleys gave me something to think about (worry about).

For somebody that just drives with out prolonged idling with near max load the pulleys will not be a problem at all.
Plus that water pump pulley looks cool as heck!

[JLHARVEY1]

I agree with SergntMac, lights dimming and voltage drop to 12 is just something you have to live with. I'm experiencing that right now and I don't have the underdrive pulley's (yet). It's really hot here right now so I'm sure that's the main reason for the voltage drop and dimming lights. I don't think the underdrive pulleys would slow it down enough to make a big difference. Actually, in hot weather, every vehicle I've owned except for one did the same. So I'm sure it's normal. The only vehicle I've owned that didn't do it was a Dodge Dakota with a 360 and the heavy duty service group that included a higher output battery and alternator. It was total overkill for my uses... I didn't tow or add any power draining accessories and had the factory sound system.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by cyclone03
Well Sgt. I know you feel we're killing this old dog but...

Maybe I should say as the guy who had em in and removed them I had a very slow start after letting the car idle with the voltage showing below 12. I want to reinstall my pulleys because I felt I could feel a positive change,but until I can raise the idle they sit in the box. I don't want to have to think about this car,the pulleys gave me something to think about (worry about). For somebody that just drives with out prolonged idling with near max load the pulleys will not be a problem at all. Plus that water pump pulley looks cool as heck!

Cyclone, you and one or two others here will disagree with me just for the sport of it.

If your battery ran down with under drive pulleys installed, get your altenator checked, or, move to a town with fewer stop lights.

We're not changing the altenator pulley, nor are we changing the length of the drive belt. With the idle is set at 550 RPM, the altenator is still pumping valid output. There's been maybe a hundred posts here in the past about the "flickering" lights from members without under drive pulleys, so, what does all of this lead us to conclude?

Anyone seeing warning lights on their dash?

Anyone need a jump after a quick run to the 7-11?

Dim is what this car does at idle under load, read what you want from the gauges.

[martyo]

My final word until I post my voltage mapping (which may be next week as I just found out I am taking a long and varied cruise through Tuesday and I am definitely taking my MM with me. In my opinion, this will add some really meaningful data.):

$100.00, plus a new battery on my dime, to the first guy who can get his battery to fail just by letting the car idle with all of the stock accessories on and the car idling. I'd bet that even if you left the car in this mode all night long you couldn't get the battery to fail. Any takers?

[Effster]

correct sarge,,the gauge is tied to the altenator output,,not the battery voltage.what every1 is seeing is the what its putting out at a given time,,not what the system is running at.the 11 volts at a slow idle is not a concern

[RF Overlord]

OK, since we are now reasonably sure there is no ELECTRICAL issue with installing the U/D pulleys, I have a different concern: cooling...I think I read (somewhere) that these motors had a cooling issue with cylinders 7 & 8, or something like that. Since this install slows down the water pump, could this not be a concern? In fact, it's the ONLY reason I haven't done this mod already...if it's truly not an issue, then I AM going to add the pulleys...it's another one of those keen little things I can do myself...sense of pride and accomplishment and all that, you know... ;)

[cyclone03]

Originally posted by martyo
My final word until I post my voltage mapping (which may be next week as I just found out I am taking a long and varied cruise through Tuesday and I am definitely taking my MM with me. In my opinion, this will add some really meaningful data.):

$100.00, plus a new battery on my dime, to the first guy who can get his battery to fail just by letting the car idle with all of the stock accessories on and the car idling. I'd bet that even if you left the car in this mode all night long you couldn't get the battery to fail. Any takers?



Are you going to map the voltage out WITH underdrive pulleys?

Are you going to be in Dallas?
Because I may take that bet.When you say fail you are saying WILL NOT RESTART CAR without a jump,right?

[SergntMac]

RF...

I would respond likewise with the cooling issues. With my first MM, my CarChipEX reported a sure, solid and safe engine temp, even in long idle periods, like the hour I spent in the staging lanes the last time we went racing. Dennis said to run the engine hot for this test, and I did. Between the 3 runs I made, I kept the engine running at idle, no loads, and engine temps never bliped one bit. I may have this file at home, I'll see if I can locate it and e-mail it to you.

[RF Overlord]

That's good to hear, Sarge...thanks!