Any downside to changing torque converter?

[Lowndex]

First, thank you for the replies to benefits of installing an after market torque converter and valve body. There seems to be some debate on the specific one to install: 2800, 3000, 3600....

Nonetheless, what are the downsides to making such a change? Reduced gas milesage (typically, by how much)? Commute/highway ride comfort reduced?

Thanks,
lowndex
:help:

[magindat]

Tires are expensive.

[Local Boy]

and the U-joints take a beating...lol

But seriously...I understand your wanting to get as much info. as possible, particularly because of the high expense and reality of "living with it" if you don't like the results...

Having said that...You will get a variety of opinions regarding your question...Everyone has their own likes and dislikes, in terms of how the cars drives and respondes.

I believe most will say that there is very little drivability differences between the 3K and the 3,500 stall TC's...

I will say this...I have never heard of anyone wishing they hed LESS stall in thier TC...unless they go S/C'ed

Good luck on your choice...

ALOHA

[magindat]

and the U-joints take a beating...lol

But seriously...I understand your wanting to get as much info. as possible, particularly because of the high expense and reality of "living with it" if you don't like the results...

Having said that...You will get a variety of opinions regarding your question...Everyone has their own likes and dislikes, in terms of how the cars drives and respondes.

I believe most will say that there is very little drivability differences between the 3K and the 3,500 stall TC's...

I will say this...I have never heard of anyone wishing they hed LESS stall in thier TC...unless they go S/C'ed

Good luck on your choice...

ALOHA

I know of 1, but that was before tuning got so good.

[Local Boy]

That is a good point...Magindat

If not for the ability to adjust my tune...I would not be so happy with it...

The adjustment to the tune, put it (TC) right where I had wanted...

Just loving it now...

ALOHA

[JonW]

Most of time, I forget I even have a 3000 stall TC. Until I nail it from a dead stop :D

[Taemian]

What about "creep"? I had a higher than stock converter put in my 2001 CVPI, and when I let off the brakes, it would always creep forward, slowly gaining more and more speed. A complete pain in stop/go traffic and I HATED that! Does a higher stall speed converter do this as a rule? Engine rpms were the same, so I thought it must be the TC.

[Local Boy]

I certainly agree that too much creep is dangerous, to say the least, in city traffic...I HATE that too! lol

I would not attribute that "creep" to the TC...

As a general rule...The lower the stall speed, the more it will creep when at a set rpm speed...

The higher stall TC's (3,500) have NO creep at all when the rpm's are at stock settings (@560)...

Thus, the need to raise the drive idle speed to gain back some creep...and get the car to accelerate with less throttle angle...

The beauty of it is that you can adjust the amount of creep, to your likeing...Not too much...and not to little...but just right...via your SCT Tuner...

Got mine adjusted to where it will sit on a 15* incline, without moving backward...This seems to be (for me) just the right amount of creep, in city traffic...

Hope this helps...

ALOHA

[magindat]

Higher stall = less creep at same RPM.

My car would 'fall' out of my steep driveway 'till I upped the idle-in-drive.

[Taemian]

Thanks for the info! I've ruled out at TC upgrade in the past because of the "creep" issue. But I'm also planning a Trilogy install in May, and I've read here that a lower TC is better in this application. Another myth?

[sailsmen]

Trilogy kits have improved their 60' w/ a higher stall.

I have even heard of some Trilogy going w/ a 2004 Stall, but these same people say a higher stall does not work w/ a Trilogy so what do I know?

There are a lot of misconceptions about higher stall. These are carried over from the days when TQ were designed with pen/paper, transmissions were controlled by a lever tied to the throttle, fuel flow was adjusted by a needle/screw driver and advance was controlled by a hose sucking on a rubber diaphram.

JW the father of our trans does not recc a valvebody.

[Local Boy]

My undrestanding is, for the trilogy boys...A higher stall TC gives them traction issues (rears break loose TOO easily)...

Sailsmen is correct - The preference (Trilogy) is a lower stall (2,600 - 2,800) to help from spinning too much...

I would love THAT problem...lol

So, keep your stock TC in place, if you plan to be trilogized...

The centri. boys, I believe, like a little more stall, to compensate for spool time...

Perhaps the guys will chime in...

ALOHA

[ImpalaSlayer]

this is good info!

[99SVT]

Commuting drivability shouldn't suffer other than a bit of gas mileage. TQ lockup should take care of highway driving and stop and go city driving will just leave you grinning like an idiot when you get to work.

A friend of mine has a 4000 stall in his 68 Coronet 440 (originally a slant 6 still has 4 drum brakes). He uses it as a daily driver/ winter car. I helped him install the converter and it would bark the tires backing off the lift, lol.

[Glenn]

Much has been written about MMs and TCs. I can only give you my own experience. The N/A MM with the 3000 PI TC was great with a good Jerry W. tune - lock-up and shifting was perfect. I honestly did not even know I had a TC until I nailed it and then watch out! It reduced my et by over 1/2 sec. I did not notice any reduction in gas mileage.

When I went to a Trilogy SC the TC did continue to help my ET, but you had to learn how to launch properly to make it work right. My best 60' time with the SC and TC was 1.57 sec.

So, the TC is great in N/A and SC modes. But, you need a good tune to make it work and it takes some technique to use it on the strip. But, I give a lot of credit to the TC for my 11.96 sec run at only 419 RWHP.

Glenn :burnout:

[Local Boy]

Thanks Glenn...

That clears it all up...Well said...

11 sec. Club...That's awesome...

That 60' time is wicked...

ALOHA

[mpearce]

but these same people say a higher stall does not work w/ a Trilogy so what do I know?

This statement as it reads, is skewed a bit, lacks further discription, and could be missleading, especially to anyone who may have recently bought a Trilogy Marauder with a stock torque converter.

A higher stall "will" work, if that's the direction you want to go. Someone with a Trilogy Marauder who isn't a dragstrip hero, may not want a higher, more aggressive stall...for those people, the stock torque converter will more than suffice. Some may want the highest stall possible. It's all about preference.

The above referenced people believed an aftermarket torque converter wasn't absolutely necessary, while some here felt an aftermarket torque converter is an absolute necessity.

-Mat

[Zack]

Trilogy kits have improved their 60' w/ a higher stall.

I have even heard of some Trilogy going w/ a 2004 Stall, but these same people say a higher stall does not work w/ a Trilogy so what do I know?

There are a lot of misconceptions about higher stall. These are carried over from the days when TQ were designed with pen/paper, transmissions were controlled by a lever tied to the throttle, fuel flow was adjusted by a needle/screw driver and advance was controlled by a hose sucking on a rubber diaphram.

JW the father of our trans does not recc a valvebody.

Trilogy owners thought the kit was all they needed back in 2003 :rolleyes:
With the passing of time, every trilogy owner hhas realized that thinngs such as Headers :rofl: actually do good for ET's!


My undrestanding is, for the trilogy boys...A higher stall TC gives them traction issues (rears break loose TOO easily)...

Sailsmen is correct - The preference (Trilogy) is a lower stall (2,600 - 2,800) to help from spinning too much...

I would love THAT problem...lol

So, keep your stock TC in place, if you plan to be trilogized...

The centri. boys, I believe, like a little more stall, to compensate for spool time...

Perhaps the guys will chime in...

ALOHA
A low stall on any blower powered 4500 lb tank is stupid. The reasonn Trilogy cars spinn the tires with any stall is cause someone proclaimed Nitto Drag Radials were the best Tire available in the world. What a joke, Nitto's suck. BFG Drags or slicks will do the trick.


Much has been written about MMs and TCs. I can only give you my own experience. The N/A MM with the 3000 PI TC was great with a good Jerry W. tune - lock-up and shifting was perfect. I honestly did not even know I had a TC until I nailed it and then watch out! It reduced my et by over 1/2 sec. I did not notice any reduction in gas mileage.

When I went to a Trilogy SC the TC did continue to help my ET, but you had to learn how to launch properly to make it work right. My best 60' time with the SC and TC was 1.57 sec.

So, the TC is great in N/A and SC modes. But, you need a good tune to make it work and it takes some technique to use it on the strip. But, I give a lot of credit to the TC for my 11.96 sec run at only 419 RWHP.


Glenn :burnout:

Your car is quick Glenn! You didnt achieve the 11.96 on pump gas though, right? Race gas nets about .5 sec reduction in ET.
Im still not buying the 1.57 60' time :eek:

[Local Boy]

Alright...Now we get the facts from some of the true players...

Right on guys...glad you guys clarified this interesting (for me at least)topic...

I learn so much from you guys...

Thanks again...

ALOHA

[sailsmen]

Originally Posted by sailsmen
but these same people say a higher stall does not work w/ a Trilogy so what do I know?



This statement as it reads, is skewed a bit, lacks further discription, and could be missleading, especially to anyone who may have recently bought a Trilogy Marauder with a stock torque converter.

A higher stall "will" work, if that's the direction you want to go. Someone with a Trilogy Marauder who isn't a dragstrip hero, may not want a higher, more aggressive stall...for those people, the stock torque converter will more than suffice. Some may want the highest stall possible. It's all about preference.

The above referenced people believed an aftermarket torque converter wasn't absolutely necessary, while some here felt an aftermarket torque converter is an absolute necessity.

-Mat


I agree taking less than half a statement will result in most instances "skewed a bit, lacks further discription, and could be missleading".

Reading my entire post which was written in response to the prior post gives a non-skewed, additional description and non-misleading statement.

Taemian Thanks for the info! I've ruled out at TC upgrade in the past because of the "creep" issue. But I'm also planning a Trilogy install in May, and I've read here that a lower TC is better in this application. Another myth?
12-21-2007 07:08 AM

sailsmen Trilogy kits have improved their 60' w/ a higher stall.

I have even heard of some Trilogy going w/ a 2004 Stall, but these same people say a higher stall does not work w/ a Trilogy so what do I know?

There are a lot of misconceptions about higher stall. These are carried over from the days when TQ were designed with pen/paper, transmissions were controlled by a lever tied to the throttle, fuel flow was adjusted by a needle/screw driver and advance was controlled by a hose sucking on a rubber diaphram.

JW the father of our trans does not recc a valvebody.

Most 60' are obtained at the drag strip. The 2004 is a higher stall then the 2003. The first Trilogy cars to be s/c were 2003.

There was a push for a long period of time that the only mod that was needed was a Trilogy and everything else could remain stock. If you put a 2004 Convertor in a 2003 is it still stock?

I pointed out for 1/2 the price with 4:10, exhaust, tune and high stall you were ~.5 in the 1/4 w/ a Trilogy.Then we were told by these same people 4:10's, shift kit, 2004 higher stall and Nittos on widened rims.

[Glenn]

I have always said right up front that I used race gas to obtain my 11.96. I'm only running 419 RWHP on stock internals. See post and video clip:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39559

Atlanta Dragway said I ran a 1.57 60'. See timeslip. I can only state what is on my timeslips. The slow et time is due to the fact that my CC LL button stuck and dragged my front tires down the track or the time would have been much better.

Merry Christmas,

Glenn


http://www.modularfords.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44 191&stc=1&d=1195919258

[Lowndex]

I plan to S/C. Well, I do not plan to install a S/C anytime soon, if ever.

So, it's a torque converter, valve body and new SCT XCalibrator 3 tuner module. Now the important part. After I buy the SCT XCalibrator 3 tuner module, I must find a true expert to properly tune my baby.

Anybody have a recommendation for CA (preferrably Northern California)?

Do you think my wife will believe I need a trip to Innovative Innoceptors?

[mpearce]

Originally Posted by sailsmen
Reading my entire post which was written in response to the prior post gives a non-skewed, additional description and non-misleading statement.

Great. You make lots of good statements, however I did not refer to your entire post. Just your statement, which I noted.



So...


The important thing to remember for people is that everyones preference, and opinion is/will be different. However some can't really get over that, or themselves.

I have a 3000 stall t/c. Does it "totally suck"...uhh...no. Its 10000 times better than my stock one. I have Nittos, do they "totally suck"...no...they're 10000 times better than my stock tires??

Do I care if someone thinks my set up "sucks"? No.

Lets not forget the guy who went 11.47, with a 1.6 60ft, using a trilogy kit, nitrous, stock exhaust, stock suspension, "Nittos" and....

yes, a stock converter.

I guess the stock converter, and Nittos...."really suck" then.

What do I know?

-Mat

[Bradley G]

I did not see any ET gains with a PI 3000 , on top of the Trilogy and 4:10 gears.
If I was sporting, sucky 9.5" Nitto drag radials, It may have been different.
The torque was more than the stock BFG's could tolerate.

This was my experience first hand, not speculation.
Of course , I suck at drag racing too, So your results may vary.
I do have a nice plaque from MVIII for "fastest reaction time" to remind me that I suck and apparently, so does the Marauder I drive! :cool4:

[Zack]

Hey Matt and Brad, I wasnt making personal attacks, ok?

Nitto Drag radials are no where near as good a tire as a slick or BFG Drag radial. There, I candy coated it for you guys.

[Bradley G]

I've heard that too Zack,
I believe the BFG drag radials are superior to Nittos also.
I was able to achieve consistant 1.8 60' times with 8" BFG drag radials.
Hey Matt and Brad, I wasnt making personal attacks, ok?

Nitto Drag radials are no where near as good a tire as a slick or BFG Drag radial. There, I candy coated it for you guys.

[sailsmen]

Lets keep in mind that a number of people have joined the site and purchased MM's in the past year.

If they do a search and only read the earlier post they will not have the benefit of what we know today.

I went from KDW ran a 13.74 N/A to KDW2 ran a 12.8 S/C to Nitto DR to MT Street ET's.

Point being I evolved over a period of time.

Now I am putting tubes in the ET, which is what I should have done in the first place.

When we first considred putting in the high stall TQ a number of people said we would ruin the driveability and would not want to drive it every day like that. Some people said the same thing about 4:10. There was a lot of discussion about the 4:10.

One person went with 4:56 and was castigated. He ran a 13.5 w/ 4:56, 3,000 TQ and headers. He then put in a Trilogy and ran 12.0 at the stock 8 psi. Many said he can't run with the hS TQ and the 4:56.

Interesting example of how we have learned http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7582

[FormulaMarauder]

great thread guys, keep up the good work

:)

[sailsmen]

Good info about how a Marauder ran 11.6 in 104* weather.

I was the second fastest Marauder that day.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21836&highlight=gainesville
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18938&page=6

10-12-2005, 08:01 AM
Zack
Puttin' The Band Back Together!


Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Homewood, Ill
Age: 29
Posts: 4,674
Trader: (6)
Post Feedback

My Specifications, for all to know.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I had my engine beefed up. And I might note I did not blow up my original engine. I pulled it out of the car running perfectly.
It is a forged 4.6, thats it.
It has CP pisting, Eagle rods and a 4340 Steel Crank.
Absolutely no head work, but I did have Crower Valve Springs installed to be safe. Stock cams, 10.1:1 compression. I also eliminated the EGR.
Ive upgraded to a T-Trim blower with a 2.90" pulley. This is supposed to make 16lbs of boost, but I am limited to 14lbs right now because I havent converted to the 8-rib setup. After 5800rpm's. the power levels off due to belt slippage.
My latest dyno while at Dennis's shop produced 492rwhp and 457 rwtq.
Flat 12.0 A/F
I finished this motor build up literally 4 hours before driving 1100 miles to Florida last month. When I ran the 11.69 at Gainesville, it had about 1200 miles on the fresh engine.
I dont have Nitrous or the Sneeky Pete System. Nor do I have the Methanol injection kit (But I will have it soon)
The car is a beast. I got 19mpg to and from Florida.
Im going to the Strip this Friday night in hopes of a new personal best.
I will let everyone know the outcome.
__________________
Just your average 3 Marauder household

[mpearce]

Hey Matt and Brad, I wasnt making personal attacks, ok?

Nitto Drag radials are no where near as good a tire as a slick or BFG Drag radial. There, I candy coated it for you guys.

I never said you were making attacks. It's just your opinion, and I'm totally fine with that, and you're entitled to it...as I'm entitled to mine.

Its just that some people may not be as "totally hard core" as you guys. Your average joe Marauder owner (Lurker) may have no aspirations at all to go to the track with their Marauder.

I wouldn't want someone (average Joe Marauder owner) who recently purchased a modded MM with the parts we're speaking of...to think that something on their MM sucks...when in actuality, it's just fine.

Thats all.

-Mat

p.s. I have heard the same thing about the Nittos. I bought them in 2004, when they were first being tested. I love them, they look unbelievable, and they are my every day tires for the street. (My MM only gets driven in the Summer) Because of my future mods this year, I am currently working on a race set up for my MM which includes custom rear wheels, and slicks.

[sailsmen]

Let us know what tire wheel combo you end up with. Hopefully I will have to switch to what you will be running.

[Marauderjack]

First, thank you for the replies to benefits of installing an after market torque converter and valve body. There seems to be some debate on the specific one to install: 2800, 3000, 3600....

Nonetheless, what are the downsides to making such a change? Reduced gas milesage (typically, by how much)? Commute/highway ride comfort reduced?

Thanks,
lowndex
:help:

FWIW.....I understand the actual stall RPM of any converter goes up as more torque is applied....meaning if a 2004 converter has a stall of 2800 RPM's with a stock motor the stall RPM's will be higher with the addition of a blower and much more power??:confused:

I would think you could benefit by consulting a reputable TC manufacturer and tell them what your goal is and go with what they recommend or you may be removing your tranny a LOT!!:eek:

My $.02!!:beer:

Marauderjack:burnout: