HP Gains from Stage 1 and Stage 2

[schuvwj]

Dennis I am a very good customer of yours. I have purchased all of the folllowing items from you for my MM in the last three months:
1) Denso Plugs
2) 180 Deg Therm.
3) Chip
4) PI 2,800 to 3,000 RPM T/C
5) 4:30 Rear end gears
6) Ford Motor Shorty Headers
7) Easy flow Cats.
8) X-pipe and releated pipe and connectors
9) Heavy Duty Sway Bar

Dennis, as you know Jerry from FordChip.com Dyno tuned my car and several other MMs on Aug, 3rd 2003 in Chicago.
Several stock MM that Jerry tuned increased RWDHP to 30 to 260 RWDHP! Great improvements for the owners of those stock MM's for about total cost of only $250.00. Great job Jerry!

Yet my MM and others with your mods listed above only gained 2 HP. Yes only two RWDHP from 268 to 269.9 RWDHP!?!

Dennis can you tell me why my car only has 269.8 RWDHP after spending thousands of dollars with you when I could of reached 260 RWDHP for just $250 with Fordchip.com? It seams I have spent thousands of dollars for only an additional 10 RWHP improvement?

Here is my findings.
MM Fordchip Dyno tune stock, cost = $250, results = 260 RWDHP.
Rienhart Stage one and stage two plus, costs = $3,000, results = 269.8 RWDHP. (9.8 more RWDHP)

What is wrong with this picture?
Would you please comment?
According to your comments in your header thread you stated that MMs with these mods should be running closer to 300 RWDHP.

Can You HELP!

[TripleTransAm]

Bill,
In your list of mods, you can only expect the exhaust work to result in the difference in peak power at the wheels (assuming others also had the plugs and thermostat mods done as well). All the other mods won't affect that peak number.

Do you have a baseline dyno run from before your mods? Perhaps there is something else that is soaking up some power, and perhaps you started out with a lower number to begin with. Nonetheless, I'm interested in hearing Dennis' theories on this.

Of course, it could just prove that shorty headers and exhaust work really only net 9-10 rwhp increases, meaning our stock stuff is still pretty good. I also understand that some engines just don't benefit (other than sound-wise) from shorty headers and need long-tube headers to really reap the benefits of such an upgrade (I have a theory that it's ignition firing-order related).

[sailsmen]

I had the Denso Plugs,Thermostat and Chip installed for $508.

The Torque Converter, Swaybar and 4:30 gears will not have any real effect on HP.

Initial HP gains will be significant and on a favorable $ per HP cost, subsequently a point is quickly reached where only small incremental gains are made at a much greater $ per HP cost.

Others have previously posted , based on my memory, 12 additional HP after a Dyno Tune by Jerry when they already had the Reinhart Chip.

How quick a car is is not solely determined by HP, power curves and shift points, which are also adjusted by a Dyno Tune, are a factor.

I don't know what your expectations are but I have never been aware of headers on a modern vehicle adding double digit HP gains. Headers can improve throttle response, another non HP factor that determines how quick a car is.

Maybe your question should be why did I pay $250 for an additional 2 HP?

[duhtroll]

I saw the topic for this post and was thinking of asking some related questions about HP gains from stage I and II myself.

For stage I and II, does anyone want to hazard a guess at the estimated HP improvement that each modification is supposed to add? I realize this is all in theory, but it would be nice to know (for us non-mechanics) which mods do the real gains and which are only small gains.

As an example, I was told that the pullies grant a 7-12 HP increase. Does anyone want to fill in all of the other mods with expected HP increases? Ballpark/estimates/shots in the dark will be fine. Now that my wallet is kinda dry I want to know what I should be saving up for next!

It's coming from Dennis, but I want to know just exactly what "it" is. :)

Thanks all,
-A

[amerikan]

You have the gears...which account for a huge gain in 0-60 times and ET. The only thing u can compare is the dynotune to the chip. 250 for a reflash vs a chip for 325. The headers and the high flow cats would have added another 10 after u had jerry tune your car. So what are you comparing here? take the gears out of the picture, Stat, Plugs, and whatever else... the dyno tune did not include that. And you should have checked ur baseline rwhp to compare with what u have now, every engine is different.

[gja]

Quote:"The Torque Converter, Swaybar and 4:30 gears will not have any real effect on HP."


In respect to the Stallion torque convertor and RWHP you are incorrect, 100%.
The Stallion results in less driveline loss and has a lower rotational mass in comparison to the stock convertor. You WILL see higher RWHP numbers and can tune the shifts for a REALLY firm snap that will smack you back into your seat.

[sailsmen]

I used the term real, meaning in the context of what the thread starter was looking for, which appears to be double digit increases.

Do you think the TC will result in double digit increase in HP?

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by gja
The Stallion results in less driveline loss and has a lower rotational mass in comparison to the stock convertor.


I did not know about the rotational mass difference... good to know, thanks for clearing that up. I wonder how much it is worth on the dyno... if it's appreciable, one should be able to feel a difference in the engine's "rev-happiness" in neutral or park, since the TC is still physically connected to the engine in those positions.

[Dennis Reinhart]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schuvwj
[B]Dennis I am a very good customer of yours. I have purchased all of the folllowing items from you for my MM in the last three months:

First off I’d like to apologize if your not happy with
any of my products. If you are that unsatisfied,
please give me a call so we can discuss returning any
of the items you are not happy with.

With that said…

For the most part, this is a totally new car. When
this happens there is a learning curve to determine
what modifications yield what benefit. This is not a
Cobra motor in a Marauder. These cars have totally
different cylinder heads and camshafts than the
’99-’01 Cobras. These cars also have an automatic
which is different than the Cobras. Due to these
changes, what worked on a Cobra may not work on a
Marauder. Look at the Lincoln LS guys and gals; there
are really no performance parts available for them.

The first thing any company, like mine, does is to
develop the normal parts that most people want for
their vehicle. Things like exhaust systems. On a
Mustang GT, an exhaust system provides very little to
no HP gain. But yet this is the most common bolt on
for a Mustang, why? Because people like the sound the
new exhaust makes. An X pipe after the CAT’s provides
little power benefit but does change the sound
dramatically.

If you take the catalytic converters and you section
them apart, you would see that there are points in the
cat’s that are smaller than 2” in diameter. In my
opinion this seemed like a restriction, this is why I
offer a system with cats. I do think it has an
improvement in power, but it’s definitely higher RPM.
I would like to see the dyno curves from your car and
one of the stock Marauders. Maybe your car holds it’s
power longer, meaning it does not fall off as fast.

If the power does fall off as fast as a stock car,
then there is another restriction in the system. I
know that the intake is a restriction and we are
working on developing/testing an intake manifold. When
I have these results I will post them. I don’t expect
these changes to make a huge power improvement either,
but I do expect the engine to have a much flatter HP
curve in the upper RPM. Meaning it will hold its power
to a higher RPM. It’s not always about peak numbers;
it’s about area under the curve, the power curve. Even
if you have a slight improvement in peak HP, but have
a huge increase in the upper RPM range, after the peak
HP, you will get more acceleration since the average
HP you are making is greater.

Once we do enough development to find all the areas
that benefit these cars, the different parts will
complement each other. The less restrictive exhaust
will result in a greater benefit from the intake
manifold change.

The torque converter you purchased is a huge
improvement in acceleration. Yes, there is some small
benefit in reduced rotating mass from the converter,
but in launching the car, the 0-60 times, this piece
makes a huge difference, but won’t show much on the
dyno.

[Marauder57]

Dennis,

So if I am reading this correctly I gather that the chip etc...gives the initial HP gains...but a lot of the later Mods are helping the car just "run better and more efficient" as opposed to just keep adding HP with no refinement? This is kind of what I thought....but was not sure.

I want the car to run "faster" for sure....but more effcient and making use of the mods....sounds better at the Pump and for the engine life in general IMHO..... :D

[Logan]

Bill,

How many miles on the car? Less than 4k miles and your motor won't of fully loosened up yet.

[JamesHecker]

I have the following from Dennis;

1) Driveshaft
2) PI T/C
3) Chip
4) Denso Plugs
5) 180 Stat

I got my 4:10's from my dealer.

I am absolutely thrilled with the performance as judged by the 'Seat - O- Pants' meter.

Without having a baseline or an after mod dyno run, I have no idea what effect these mods have had on HP. I just know I like it!

Dennis, what would be a guestimate of what the above mods should bring in HP increase?

[TAF]

Bill,

I wanted you to know that although I am a HUGE fan of Dennis and his equipment, your question (I feel) is a fair one if you're looking at it from "30,000ft". However, I think there are 2 things to consider here:

1) You won't find a more fair individual around than Dennis if there are ANY concerns with what you may have purchased from him. Dennis is a "straight-up-guy" and is EXTREMELY focused on customer satisfaction. I know you were not presenting a personal attack on him or his products...you were just asking (what I feel) is a valid question in broad strokes.

2) I have personally found that the cummulative effect of the various bolt-ons from Dennis coupled with the FordChip Dyno-tune = a MUCH better experiance with the car than I think L/M had planned with the stocker. Just my opinion, and no flame to the folks who are still 100% stock, but...my car now is a much more enjoyable, effecient and performing vehicle than the one that I drove away from the dealership with. I have personally experianced nearly 40RWHP and 50RWTQ on a GREAT car with simple (and I feel inexpensive) bolt-ons and tuning. I also on the day of FordChip Dyno-tune in ATL watched a stock Marauder get what could be considered (an actually was) a much larger % increase from the base HP. However, I also know that to complete the overall cumulative effect of that tune...additional items from Dennis were added to maximize the effect.

Bill, I just wanted you to know you are asking a valid question and I know Dennis will be glad to work out the best solution for you.

Sorry for the length folks.

EDIT: Sorry again...I had not seen Dennis' post. I think here is your answer, Bill as well as support for what I posted...

Originally posted by Dennis Reinhart
[QUOTE]

First off I’d like to apologize if your not happy with
any of my products. If you are that unsatisfied,
please give me a call so we can discuss returning any
of the items you are not happy with.

[prchrman]

How's about when youz guyz down in Texas run the Stage I, Stage II, Stage III, Super Tuned, SCed, etc and give us the #s. That would tell what did what and who did what. That goes for the Cole Performance super tuner also, the one I am interested in but have not seen one dyno sheet. It shouldn't be that hard to get real #s with everybody there tearing up the track. Talk is cheap but mods are not......willie

[TAF]

Hows 'bout YOUZ come join us and see for yourself...Yaknow, we need someone to lead the Sunday Morning Service other than RF:confused:

[MM03MOK]

Originally posted by TAF
other than RF:confused: Domini Domini Domini, you're all Catholics now!!

[prchrman]

Originally posted by TAF
Hows 'bout YOUZ come join us and see for yourself...Yaknow, we need someone to lead the Sunday Morning Service other than RF:confused:

I'll pray for you but I will be preaching in Jacksonville Texas that Sunday morning Sept. 21st, it's about 2 hours from where you will be. Come on over and join the service. willie

[austin-tatious]

FWIW, Mac sent me all the docs on his first MM including dyno results for the different mods he made.

1. 266 rwhp/285rwtq -- after installing DR chip, 180 deg thermostat, Denso plugs, 4.10 rear gear.

2. 273 rwhp/295rwtq -- after installing underdrive pulleys from DR.

3. 273 rwhp/296 rwtq -- after installing PI TC, MMC Alum drive shaft.

4. 272 rwhp/294rwtq -- after installing Ravin mufflers.

It looks to me like mods 3,4 really didn't change anything. However, I have not looked at the curves to see if the area under the hp and tq curves changed with mods 3 or 4. If I can remember, I'll do that in the next couple days. Also, I don't have the base dyno numbers with me, but Mac did give that to me and I'll have to look it up. Seems like I recall the base hp was 244.

[duhtroll]

Thanks austin --

Anyone know what cats and headers are supposed to do? Anything else I am missing?

Thankx,
-A

[Dr Caleb]

Headers provide a better path for exhaust gasses to exit the engine, without reducing HP or Torque like a regular exhaust manifold will. Shorty headers will show a small improvement in low end torque, longer headers will show a better improvement in both HP and torque over the entire power curve.

Cats - or Catalytic Convertors - convert toxic exhaust gasses into less toxic gasses. When you burn hydrocarbons, you should get water vapour + carbon dioxide, but with the impurities in hydrocarbons, you get dangerous things like carbon monoxide, Sulfur dioxide, nitrous dioxides and carbon monoxides.

Cats use a catalytic process - a catalyst is present to chemically break these gasses into other gasses eg: 2 carbon monoxide atoms will be 'cracked' into 1 carbon dioxide atom, and 1 carbon atom. Cats require back pressure to operate. Hi-flo cats require less pressure to operate, flow more exhaust gasses and give a little more HP, but some hi-flo cats release too many bad gasses to be emissions legal.

Clear as mud?

[duhtroll]

Thanks Dr C - I just meant the HP gains but I got the bonus plan. :) Do you know a number for each (i.e. what gains would be expected)?

Thanks,
-A

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by duhtroll
Thanks Dr C - I just meant the HP gains but I got the bonus plan. :) Do you know a number for each (i.e. what gains would be expected)?

Thanks,
-A

You're bill's in the mail :-)

I have no idea at numbers. I can only give you trends. It varies with each combination, and for different cars. My car may get 5 hp from under drive pulleys, but yours may get 10hp because you have shorty headers and lo-flo cats and a turbo injection system :) .

I think most manufacturers have tested different combos on the MM.

Dennis offers shorty headers. Perhaps he feels they provide enough bang for the buck, or that longer headers didn't give any performance gains. They may have even been a step back. People have said that Dennis' stage 1 gives a real seat-of-the-bloomers improvement.

Sean Hyland offers long headers and a 5.2l forged internals stroker kit. Perhaps they feel that combination works well together.

Trilogy just bolts up an eaton blower, with no exhaust modifications to show what that one modification will do.

Look at Austin's numbers. Ravin mufflers may have given -1 HP -1 torque, but that could have been due to lower humidity that day. Perhaps it made more room if he decides to go for a blower. Perhaps it was just better sound.

Until someone publishes a single modification only dyno test of the MM, then combinations, we won't know how any one modification affects our cars, and then, some combinations may result in reduced numbers!

Too many variables. It wobbles the mind.

[schuvwj]

Originally posted by Logan
Bill,

How many miles on the car? Less than 4k miles and your motor won't of fully loosened up yet.

Logan I have 14,000 mile on my MM.
So I would think the car is loose as it is going to get!

[Logan]

That would be pretty damn loose. :)

[gja]

Now, how does the old saying go?
Fast women, loose cars?!
Fast cars, loose women?!
It is all too long ago to remember.......now what was I saying?

[schuvwj]

From my passed experiance and if I had to do it again I would only do the following mods to my stock MM:
1) New 2,800 to 3,000 RPM - PI Stallion TC from Dennis
2) New intake manifold from Dennis
3) And a Dennis's Chip with Dyno tune
A stock MM would problally be able to push 280HP or more HP with spending a lot less money!

My 2 cents!

[schuvwj]

My Father-in-law had a leather motorcycle vest which had a very true phrase on it. He wore it to his grave.
"IF it has tits or wheels there will be trouble!"

[schuvwj]

Originally posted by gja
Now, how does the old saying go?
Fast women, loose cars?!
Fast cars, loose women?!
It is all too long ago to remember.......now what was I saying?

It gooes like this!
She was a fast machine which kept her motor clean, she the best damn women I'ver seen!

[Dennis Reinhart]

First off I’d like to apologize if your not happy with
any of my products. If you are that unsatisfied,
please give me a call so we can discuss returning any
of the items you are not happy with.


Well, Bill, I am friends with Paul and we are teaming up and selling this intake system, this is not a cheap upgrade either we both feel it will enhance and accent the exhaust. I will have one next week, to test on my Marauder, we will require that once we start sales that we must have your upper intake for core. Jerry is my best friend he introduced me to Paul. I have been selling Jerry's tuning for years I talk to him daily, Some members have no access to Jerry's sessions and what I have been selling is very close to being perfect, there is no better way to tune a car than on the dyno, and it also enables you to be able to check A/F. I have all the new updated files from the dyno sessions, I am taking these to Ennis with me I will be offering the choice of flashing or chipping the EEC, also Paul and I will be offering a fuel pump upgrade, for both the N/A and S/C Marauder, since we have determined there is a problem with going WOT with less than a 1/4 tank of gas in the tank. We will require your OEM pump assembly for a core. Both Paul and I are working on improving the intake and exhaust, as well as the fuel delivery system.

Dennis

[Zack]

I just read this thread for the first time. It is being approached the wrong way, plain and simple. Ok time to listen to reason. Over the years, ive come to realize that power viewed in numbers is not the way to look at it. Rather, how is the power we have being utilized? Perfect example: you install a Torque converter and dont see any hp gains on the dyno after spending close to a grand. WTF right? Well how many people actually went to the track after the install and realized their car is faster? How many people know that they just shaved 20-30+ pounds of rotational mass which means the engine revs faster producing what? NO ADDITIONAL POWER!! WHAT DOES IT EQUAL? Bingo, a faster car. After driving my car around for about 3000 miles since my last mod, my car seems slower. Is it slower? NO. We all get used to familiar power levels over time and are basically not as impressed as the day we installed part xyz. Guys who drive around in 12 second cars are always saying their car is slow, because they are used to it. I havent given any of my dyno graphs a second look since I got them, waste of time and thought. If I put new spark plugs in, i dont car if I gained .0001 hp. If the car feels faster and can be verified at the 1/4 mile proving ground, I am satisfied.

[martyo]

Bravo, Brother Zack, Bravo!

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by schuvwj
Dennis I have purchased all of the folllowing items from you for my MM in the last three months:
1) Denso Plugs
2) 180 Deg Therm.
3) Chip
4) PI 2,800 to 3,000 RPM T/C
5) 4:30 Rear end gears
6) Ford Motor Shorty Headers
7) Easy flow Cats.
8) X-pipe and releated pipe and connectors
9) Heavy Duty Sway Bar

As you know Jerry dyno tuned my car and several other MMs on Aug, 3rd 2003 in Chicago. Several stock MM that Jerry tuned increased RWHP to 30 to 260 RWDHP! Great improvements for the owners of those stock MM's for about total cost of only $250.00. Great job Jerry! Yet my MM and others with your mods listed above only gained 2 HP. Yes only two RWDHP from 268 to 269.9 RWHP!?!

Dennis can you tell me why my car only has 269.8 RWHP after spending thousands of dollars with you when I could of reached 260 RWHP for just $250 with Fordchip.com? It seams I have spent thousands of dollars for only an additional 10 RWHP improvement? Here is my findings. MM Fordchip Dyno tune stock, cost = $250, results = 260 RWDHP. Rienhart Stage one and stage two plus, costs = $3,000, results = 269.8 RWDHP. (9.8 more RWDHP) What is wrong with this picture? Would you please comment? According to your comments in your header thread you stated that MMs with these mods should be running closer to 300 RWHP.

Man-oh-man, I am really sorry to see you post this, Bill, I thought we hashed this out Sunday. Oh well...

General rule of thumb on mods...The higher your HP, the harder it is to tweak out new HP. Chip, or dyno tune, the greatest leaps forward come in one step. The rest are baby steps after that, one HP at a time.

A bone stock MM will never see 300 RWHP with just bolt on mods, I tried that, it's not happening. Even Mad-3R just barely crossed the 300 RWHP line by getting into internals.

If you spent a fewc grand on mods, Bill, you're including the cost of labor, as I did. I spent approx 4500 bucks myself, every labor dime going to union shops at dealer rates of 90 bucks an hour.

This is true, you spent it as I did, but for the talented owner who could do his own install, his Stage I and II mods would cost out much cheaper, maybe 2 grand cheaper. The labor costs, which we choose ourselves, shouldn't be included in the cost of mods because it's a variable Dennis has no control over.

You are looking at this wrong, Bill, and I say so with a lot of respect for you and your car. This post, is one whopping "why?" question for which there is often no real answer for. "Why?" questions are rarely satisfied. Maybe I can help here, maybe not. I feel qualified to stick my nose in here, because I have driven this path myself.

Your base line dyno was what, 268 RWHP? How did you get that from a bone stock 240 something RWHP? You drove in the door at 268, right? How did you do that? Could it be that your Reinhart mods were working all along? Could it be that your dyno tune had the effect of checking your shoe laces before a big foot race? I think so. Your "why" question is my "how" question, Bill, how did you pull a base line dyno of 268 to begin with?

Back when I first became a Reinhart customer, I bought a lot of stuff from Dennis not knowing what to expect in performance gains. I checked his boasting by running my own testing. Dennis did not lie about anything, some of his mods produced new HP, some did not. Here's a short list.

1) Denso Plugs-Yes
2) 180 stat-No
3) Chip-Yes
4) PI 2,800 to 3,000 RPM T/C-NO
5) 4:30 Rear end gears-NO
6) Ford Motor Shorty Headers, easy flow Cats, X-pipe and releated pipe and connectors--Not sure, we didn't have these options back then.
7) Heavy Duty Sway Bar-No
9) under drive pullies-Yes
10) Ignition mods, plug wires-No

I didn't have the chance to test the exhaust parts, they were not available to me in those days. But, the rest of the mods were fully tested and documented as producing/not producing additional power at the wheels. Those records are now in the hand of Austin, the present owner of my first MM, and he's invited to share them now.

Bottom line is, is that some of the mods produce RWHP you can see on a dyno chart, other only enhance the driveability of the MM, and/or, work to deliver that HP to the rear wheels by reducing drive line loss and/or power sapping rotational mass dead weight. That's the truth, Bill, and you should know I would not lie to you or any other owner for Reinhart's sake.

Odd, there are a few mods I did add, that you have not, yet my best RWHP and RWTQ peaked at 275/301. After Jerry "checked my shoe laces" those mumbers dropped to 273 RWHP and 298 RWTQ...But, the car was never faster.

One thing Jerry does, which you should be able to see on your dyno charts, is move the power band down lower, from (approx) 4000 RPM to (approx) 3000 RPM, allowing you to get into your power sooner and quicker, than you did before. He did this for me last year, and he did it for all of us this last Sunday. The proof is in your dyno charts, read them again.

Back to your question Bill, the two highest performing MMs last Sunday, were MMs that traveled here from out of state. Compared against the local MMs, they did quite well, which makes me consider that Illinois gasoline has it's affect on performance. While we didn't expect to see this, or prepare to examine that alone, it seems rather clear that the out of state MMs had an edge on us.

How did you do compared to likewise modded local MMs on Sunday? In the ball park, eh? I think so.

I could complain and ask why too. My RWHP dropped significanlty from my expectations. When I purchased the KB1x, I was told many things about her performance. This last Sunday was my first opportunity to see that performance first hand. I was disappointed to say the least. I lost more than a few "numbers," myself, however, Zack has since discovered a few "issues" we are presently addressing and very soon, my numbers will be restored to my expectations. Until then, she is one fast car, and I beg any challengers to bring it on.

My point is, is that dyno numbers are really more an index, a book mark, a "high water mark" by which we measure, or guess at the expectation of performance. There are no rules or guarantees that X number of RWHP will deliver the champion car, it's just an index to watch. If you don't believe me, just peek at this months's Motor Trend article on the VT Marauder. Here's a certified 430 RWHP "wild thang" that Motor Trend tests out in the low 13 seconds...Hey, Motor Trend, need a driver? HP and TQ are important, but they are not the final test to measure accomplishment.

You got your money's worth Bill, from the mods and from the dyno tune. Why you're posting this question, I can't say, but you got your money's worth, and that proof is in your dyno report.

How does she drive, Bill?

[sailsmen]

It is interesting to read thru the posts.

The conclusion I get is different people have different goals when modifying their car.

Some want to make the car faster, some to handle better, some to improve the shifting, some to improve the appearance, some to improve the exhaust sound and some just want to have the highest peak HP on a Dyno.

For those looking for the highest peak HP on a Dyno stay away from Mustang, you will get a 10-15% lower reading due to the constant loading set up that simulates aero drag ect.

I think the leason learned is discuss your goal with the vendor before the purchase.

[MAD-3R]

Dyno's only tell 1/2 the story. The other 1/2 of the story is on the road.

I was a bit disapointed with my results as well, I was expecting to be well into the 300's, but topped out at 275. But I chalked it up to new motor at the time. But I did top out at over 300 TQ.

Something I discovered on the way home, was when I went to pass and I was still on the tank of Ill. "gasoline" I would ping ever so lightly. After I filled up in Indiana, No ping, just roar. Next Saturday, I will be doing some 1/4 mile runs, and that will tell me the other side of the story.

[Mikeenh]

Sarge,

OUTSTANDING !!

[Dennis Reinhart]

I talked to Bill this morning he is in no way dissatisfied with any thing he bought per say, He felt I stated that with the exhaust the car should gain a substantial amount of RWHP, I have never stated that as far as I know, he said he thought it was posted on the site I dont think it is. If so some one let me know. If I did it was just a misstake never meaning to misslead any one several members here have bought this set up I know I never told them that, either way I want to make sure my custoners are happy.

I am only human I make mistakes and I sent him a set of 3:73 gears by mistake he paid the shipping when he sent them back. I gave him a 50.00 credit for all these inconveniences I also shipped his 4:30's at no cost on an expedited delivery. I never knew this till today of any issues he had he also waited a long time on the Exhaust, all I can do is apologize for that, he also had hardware scattered in the box of the X. Pipe this is do to the box being torn and damaged in shipping. This is not my fault, but I cant fix it if I am unaware of the problems.

I have to send the exhaust by FedEx UPS won't accept a box this big. Bill also never got a receipt this is my bust again. I have taken care of all this, again as soon as I was aware of the issues at hand. I feel we have a better understanding of each other. I have assured him I am here to help and I am going to continue to strive to improve our cars and my customer service.

Dennis Reinhart

[Marauder57]

Zack and Mac....very good points....for me personally my goal is really never to be able to get 450RWHP...just too much for me as an every day driver.....although it is cool as heck! But I wanted to improve on the "Stock" MM...basically take what was provided and remove the barriers that came from the factory....after Dennis, Chip, Stat, Densos, Sway and Gears...it is a new car....I don't care what the HP would rate...that thing will get up and go! Much better than stock and just great comparing what it was before.... I would like to get around 300hp...just using that as a benchmark....a numerical goal if you will.....but if the car feels and performs faster...that is more important to me....

I like Sarges analogy to shoe laces and shoes....I would take it step further and say some mods are new Shoes....that are a noticable upgrade and can provide a lot of noticeable if not quantifiable gains....but for the most part a persons health, training, food intake, rest that is what really refines the machine. A fat guy in fast shoes will run faster for a fat guy....but a conditioned athlete in fast shoes is maximizing it all....some mods are shoes...some are perfecting the machine to make maximum use of the shoes....

I have been very satisfied with Dennis and his mods...and I will use him every chance I get....mainly because Dennis is seldom satisfied and works hard to improve on the mods all the time....and why.....because he has an MM and wants his own car to get the most it can....kind of a "....and I am also a client." kind of thing....

This has been a good thread and a good chance to get a lot of opinions on the whole "mod" phenomenon.... :D

[gonzo50]

I always enjoy reading SergntMac's resolve, it's straight to the point and firm. Much kudos to you. :up:
This was a lesson on two of the five sense, feel or touch and sight. If it feels strong than it doesn't matter what you see. Go with the flow. All responses to this post were very educational and I know I learned a few new equations. Keep up the good hard work Dennis. Thanks !:D

[austin-tatious]

originally posted by SergntMac
But, the rest of the mods were fully tested and documented as producing/not producing additional power at the wheels. Those records are now in the hand of Austin, the present owner of my first MM, and he's invited to share them now.

I previously posted Mac's results above and repeat them here.


1. 266 rwhp/285rwtq -- after installing DR chip, 180 deg thermostat, Denso plugs, 4.10 rear gear.

2. 273 rwhp/295rwtq -- after installing underdrive pulleys from DR.

3. 273 rwhp/296 rwtq -- after installing PI TC, MMC Alum drive shaft.

4. 272 rwhp/294rwtq -- after installing Ravin Z55 mufflers.

It looks to me like mods 3,4 really didn't change anything. However, I have not looked at the curves to see if the area under the hp and tq curves changed with mods 3 or 4.

I did look at the hp and tq curves last night. Mac used the same dyno for evaluating mods 1, 2, and 3. So we can do an apples to apples compare (more or less -- remember that though the dyno is the same, the runs were done over a period of about 2 months from early Jan to early March and no doubt temp/humidity/air pressure were significantly different each time). After comparing the graphs for mods 2 and 3, I can say that there is a lot more area under both the hp/tq curves after mod #3 compared to mod #2. Mod #3 produced NO gains in peak numbers. But even though there is no gain in peak hp/tq, the car has more hp/tq at rpms both below and above the peak numbers -- the curves are flatter before and after the peak numbers are reached. Now you have a faster car but no gain in hp/tq. How come? It makes sense to me that with the lower rotational mass of the PI TC and drive shaft combined, plus the the presumably more efficient TC, you get more of the available hp and tq to the rear wheels than with the stock TC and drive shaft.

The dyno used to evaluate mod #4 was not the same. Mac went to a different place. So the comparison is more suspect. But it looks to me like the car produced a little more hp/tq at lower revs (in the 3000 to 4000 rpm range) with the Ravins than without them. The peak hp/tq numbers were also lower by an insignificant amount. Practically speaking, I would say they are the same. It's hard to say because the dyno is different and the temp/humidity/air pressure are also different. If there really is any loss of tq at the higher revs where peak hp/tq occur, maybe that is due to the reduced back-pressure provided by the Ravins.

Now suppose we put a cold air pipe and better flowing plenum on the input side of the engine, maybe then the presumably more efficient flow through the output side provided by the Ravins would show up as higher peak hp/tq on the dyno? The only way to find out, I think, would be to swap back the stock mufflers, install the intake mods, do the dyno, re-install the Ravins, then repeat the dyno.

Boils down to this. Some mods will have no apparent effect or even a negative effect until you combine them with complementary mods. 'Nuff said.

[schuvwj]

You know it simply amazes me how many different perceptions I’ve received in this thread from many different MM owners and friends.

Not once did ever I say anything negative against any parts purchased from Dennis Reinhart or about him and his work. I only asked him for help on what I could do to raise my MM HP closer to 300 RWHP with additional boltons. MAC as we see additional technology developed monthly and ideas people from people like Dennis Reinhart I am sure we will see 300 RWHP on MMs with only boltons in the very near future.

Both Dennis and I have discussed our differences today and I truly believe this man wants to help us meet and exceed our MM goals even if all of our goals are different! I plan on buying all my future component mods from Dennis as they come available because I know he will stand behind his word and product. If there was any past misunderstanding I apologize to Dennis and his team!

However there are a few of you who read my comments and automatically assumed I was out for Dennis’s blood! This was totally untrue! I was just trying to understand what really happen to my MM and how I was going to I fix it!
I trying to understand why so many you have done this to me and my guess is I was a threat to your long term relationship with Dennis Reinhart.

You know I had a very good time at the Dyno pull in Chicago on Sunday, I even helped with the blower many times yet some of the Mercury Marauder members there ready to assume I was out for blood in my first email. Due to this reaction will not remain a Windy City Member and I think it would be best not to participate in any future Windy City Team events. I will only limit my feedback or information on a limited basis on this website.

Logan if you feel what I've done is bad by all means please remove me from your site!

Have a Good Time Guys and Gals!

[sailsmen]

It is the limitations in communicating via text. 1/2 of communcation is the visual clues we receive from each other.

This is why we still have face to face meetings when it's important.

I don't know what the factor is for communicating by text, but you loose 1/2 on the phone vs face to face.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by schuvwj
However there are a few of you who read my comments and automatically assumed I was out for Dennis’s blood! This was totally untrue! I was just trying to understand what really happen to my MM and how I was going to I fix it! I'm trying to understand why so many you have done this to me and my guess is I was a threat to your long term relationship with Dennis Reinhart. You know I had a very good time at the Dyno pull in Chicago on Sunday, I even helped with the blower many times yet some of the Mercury Marauder members there ready to assume I was out for blood in my first email. Due to this reaction will not remain a Windy City Member and I think it would be best not to participate in any future Windy City Team events. I will only limit my feedback or information on a limited basis on this website. Logan if you feel what I've done is bad by all means please remove me from your site! Have a Good Time Guys and Gals!

I am sorry to read these words, Bill, you will be missed. I have gone over this thread again and looked for any demeaning commentary directed towards you, and I find nothing to remark about. All things considered, this has been one of the more fruitful threads here, we all got a chance to look at the process of dyno tuning and the development of HP as it happens. The thoughts exchanged here seem quite healthy 411 for us all, without getting personal, or, attacking you.

I am sorry you feel offended, and I apologize if I participated in that, it was never my goal. Nonethless, if you feel you need to step away from the group, so be it. Drive safely my friend, you'll always be welcome at any event the Windy City group throws together.

[JLHARVEY1]

Pretty much the way I interupt this is:

If I buy Rhienhart's chip, it's already going to be so well tuned that I don't really need to bother with the dyno tuning.

At least that's my take on the whole situation.


And what I'd really like to know is:

With all the great stuff you have on your car, what are your 1/4 mile times and trap speeds? That's where the real info on the effectiveness of your mods is. Since most of your mods help acceleration and add no real power.

[sailsmen]

If you are only interested in peak Dyno HP the answer is yes. If you are interested in a faster car the answer is no.

It's the power curve not just peak HP that determines how fast a car is. PU "Mustangs & Fastfords" magazine and you will see whenever they talk about a mod resulting in a Dyno change in HP they also talk about the power curve change or average HP per RPM.

Read thru all the post in this thread and you will see this has been discussed.

[JLHARVEY1]

Sailsmen, you are 100% correct on the power curve thing. Take a Honda S2000 for instance. It has 240 hp (from 2.0 liters) and almost no torque below 5000 RPM. If I remember correctly, most of the magazines that tested it stated that they had to drop the clutch at 5 or 6 thousand RPM (not something I'd wanna do to a car that I own). So sure, it might run some great times if you beat it, but if you were the owner you probably wouldn't do such stupid things to your car. And you'd never achieve the times published by the magazines, you'd probably get outrun by a V-6 Accord. :flamer: I know this isn't a Honda forum, but that car makes a great example why peak numbers aren't all that important.

[schuvwj]

Originally posted by Zack
I just read this thread for the first time. It is being approached the wrong way, plain and simple. Ok time to listen to reason. Over the years, ive come to realize that power viewed in numbers is not the way to look at it. Rather, how is the power we have being utilized? Perfect example: you install a Torque converter and dont see any hp gains on the dyno after spending close to a grand. WTF right? Well how many people actually went to the track after the install and realized their car is faster? How many people know that they just shaved 20-30+ pounds of rotational mass which means the engine revs faster producing what? NO ADDITIONAL POWER!! WHAT DOES IT EQUAL? Bingo, a faster car. After driving my car around for about 3000 miles since my last mod, my car seems slower. Is it slower? NO. We all get used to familiar power levels over time and are basically not as impressed as the day we installed part xyz. Guys who drive around in 12 second cars are always saying their car is slow, because they are used to it. I havent given any of my dyno graphs a second look since I got them, waste of time and thought. If I put new spark plugs in, i dont car if I gained .0001 hp. If the car feels faster and can be verified at the 1/4 mile proving ground, I am satisfied.

Hey Zack WTF Left or just WTF me?

[schuvwj]

Originally posted by martyo
Bravo, Brother Zack, Bravo!

Hey brother Martyo, Bravo wtf what?

[schuvwj]

Originally posted by sailsmen
It is the limitations in communicating via text. 1/2 of communcation is the visual clues we receive from each other.

This is why we still have face to face meetings when it's important.

I don't know what the factor is for communicating by text, but you loose 1/2 on the phone vs face to face.

You know you have made a very good point! It seems to me we have only made 1/2 the communitcaion. Maybe we need meet face to face to finish our conversation over an ice cold beer!

[schuvwj]

Originally posted by SergntMac
I am sorry to read these words, Bill, you will be missed. I have gone over this thread again and looked for any demeaning commentary directed towards you, and I find nothing to remark about. All things considered, this has been one of the more fruitful threads here, we all got a chance to look at the process of dyno tuning and the development of HP as it happens. The thoughts exchanged here seem quite healthy 411 for us all, without getting personal, or, attacking you.

I am sorry you feel offended, and I apologize if I participated in that, it was never my goal. Nonethless, if you feel you need to step away from the group, so be it. Drive safely my friend, you'll always be welcome at any event the Windy City group throws together.

Sarg you have done nothing to affend me and my car. Their is no need for any aplologizes because there is nothing to aplolgize for.
You have been a great team leader, and a very highly respected souce of great information for all of us! Plus a very good Freind! I hope I can help you as much as you have helped me and many others on this site.

[martyo]

Originally posted by schuvwj
Hey brother Martyo, Bravo wtf what?


Hey Bill: I am glad that you had a chance to edit down your original response before I had a chance to response; I believe originally you said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by schuvwj
Hey brother Martyo, Bravo wtf what? Save it!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That puzzles me. Zack and I have developed a friendship through this site. I enjoy and profit from his knowledge and posts (for example, he is why I have headers and was thrilled to drive my car all day yesterday, rain or shine).

My point was that I agreed with the way Zack approached the thread. If that offended you, I am sorry, it certainly wasn't intended that way. We all have our points of view on the car and the mods. That's what makes this site great, isn't it? A forum to share ideas nationwide (plus our Northern Brothers) in an instant. How cool is that?

Why did you take offense at my post? My phone number has been posted all over this site (914.582.6262) and I encourage you and others to use it for complaints or compliments. The choice is yours.

[sailsmen]

I would be happy to have an ice cold beer with anyone on the board.

I am in New Orleans, if anyone is coming thru let me know. I can show you a good time and if we can't hook up I can tell you where to go for a good time.

[martyo]

Originally posted by sailsmen
I would be happy to have an ice cold beer with anyone on the board.

I am in New Orleans, if anyone is coming thru let me know. I can show you a good time and if we can't hook up I can tell you where to go for a good time.

I am usually there for Thanksgiving. But I may have to pass on letting you show me where to "go for a good time" as I will have my girlfriend with me.

[sailsmen]

If you like good food my mother's side of the family owns the second oldest restaurant. The have not changed the menu in 100+ years.

I can give you some advise on where to go.

[martyo]

Originally posted by sailsmen
If you like good food my mother's side of the family owns the second oldest restaurant. The have not changed the menu in 100+ years.

I can give you some advise on where to go.

Thanks. Eating is my second favortie sport. Lay some names on me. They do not have to be on the beaten path.

[sailsmen]

Galatoire's - Coat and Tie Bistro, reservations reccommended, ask for Emory or Andre - Godeaux Salad( shrimp, crabmeat, creole mustard, lettuce, creole tommato), soufle' potatos( puffed french fries), soft shell crab menuere, Pompano menuere, Lamb Chops, Oyters en broughette ( fried oysters on a scewer with bacon) and crepes maison( thin pancakes, almounds, stuffed w/ jelly and flamed w/ grand mariner) - going there for lunch today

Bozo's - neighboorhood best fried shrimp & oysters

Drago's - upscale neighboorhood best charbroil oysters

Ugelishes - neighboorhood-
daytime only and get directions, it's in a war zone - excellent
seafood

Mosca's - neighboorhood - dinner only Scilian, best Shrimp Mosca or Chicken Catchatoire

Palace Cafe' - upscale modern creole

Commanders Palace - upscale modern creole

[sailsmen]

Sorry guys. I just realized we are way off subject here. PM me and I will give you some more eating places.

[martyo]

Originally posted by sailsmen
Sorry guys. I just realized we are way off subject here. PM me and I will give you some more eating places.

Frankly, this is the best turn that this thread could have taken! It sure beats the bickering, doesn't it?

[schuvwj]

Lets close this thread!

Bye!

[martyo]

Can we open a separate Food/Restuarant thread? I need to know where to eat in Ennis and Hershey.

[Logan]

This thread is done.