Turning a MM over on a road?

[John F. Russo]

Marauder03 (At the bottom of his posting)
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming...'Wow! What a ride!" (Unknown source)

Can a Marauder turn over on a smooth highway asphalt road?

Inadvertently I did a test on such a road at 11 F and the car leaned over quite a bit but it didn't turn over. Here is the story:

Date: 1/8/04
Road conditions: dry for days
Weather: 11 F, clear
Road: Four lane highway
Time: 6:45am
Speed (just before skidding): 80 to 90 mph at WOT
Tire condition: I had driven three miles stop and go just before incident.
Car design: Kenny Brown lowered my MM By close to 1.5 in.; Pirelli P Zero tires

Introduction
I have been checking the boost from my supercharger for about a week. Trying to determine the reason for its inconsistency. (From my standpoint). I get a consistent 5 psig from 50 mph and higher, that is, at 50 mph I floor it and I watch the boost gauge. I repeated this at 30 mph and have found that the boost varies from 5 to 9 psig. Can this be expalined or is it normal inconsistency?

Accident Description
I decided to add to my data base one morning. I merged onto the highway as usual. The traffic was light and a Ford Ranger looking truck was in the immediate left lane within a 100 feet in the immediate next lane about 100 feet behind me and no other cars for about 1/8 of a mile except in the passing lane thing in the far three right hand lanes. I floored the car at about 50 to 60 mph, then as usual and the rear started to fishtail. So I continued holding the gas pedal to the floor. In a matter of seconds I was watching a large amount of blue smoke in front of my windshield from my tires. Then at a slower speed I clearly remember the car was pointing to the breakdown lane trying not to go into the woods. Despite my breaking, I ended up about 20 feet into the woods.

What Happened?
I can’t determine what happened during those seconds that I feel 99% sure that I made a 90 degree between the 1st and 2nd lane (counting from the right side). I have never had that experience except in the dodg’ems at an amusement park in my teens. But the sensation was rapid turning and lots of blue smoke. I feel that my right front wheel locked up and spun me clockwise pointing to the breakdown lane. Any other thoughts about how I could have turned so fast and not remember the sensation of turning?

Car Specification
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Made in Canada) w/Light Flint (reversed traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer, clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light), Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03; 70,000 miles
ENGINE: Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion, Vortech supercharger (5 to 7 psig boost; 3.48 pulley), 400 RWHP/377 RWTQ, 8.8lbs/BHP; Dennis Reinhart Cobra engine cooling kit, NGKTR6 plugs TRANSMISSION: Stock transmission upgraded with Performance Automatic "Super Streeter" transmission version, stub shaft (defective metal) failed at 30k miles; upgraded internals (except for torque converter) to Reinhart's design; Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3, later upgraded to 3500 rpm stall speed); Ford Racing transmission aluminum pan SUSPENSION: Metco control arms (black powdered coated), coil from each front stock spring removed to produce the “same” effect as an Eibach spring DRIVETRAIN 4.10 gears, MMX Driveshaft, Ford Racing Stud and Girdle BRAKES:14 in. BaerClaw front, (two piston, slotted rotors), TIRES: Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18, rear widened rims 285/45ZR18), ACCESSORIES: Wheel locks (Ford), godshead valve stem caps, KB Dead pedal, Badgeless front grille by “Zack”; 3M wax; RainX; 3M protective film, FordChip, Ground clearance: 5 in. from plastic air-dam MISCELLANEOUS 18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph on one tank of gas

[Zack]

So is another Blue destroyed or what?

[1of327]

Yeah really...are you still in one piece? thats alot of stuff happening to not have a scratch on ya...

[magindat]

The sensation had passed after the beginning of the fishtail. The erst is so smooth you never feel it. (Believe me, I Know)

As for flipping a Marauder... the only way possible is if the tires/wheels hit an obstruction on the ground that stopped the leading edge slide. Even then, stuff breaks and the car keeps sliding.

You could jump it or launch it and flip it, but flipping it on flat open road ain't gonna happen.

[John F. Russo]

So is another Blue destroyed or what?


I just finished writing this out and you're already on it. Is your car as fast?:lol:

No. But it did cost me $10,000.

[hot-rauder]

So is another Blue destroyed or what?


what highway were you hopping onto? around 495 or 95?

[John F. Russo]

Yeah really...are you still in one piece? thats alot of stuff happening to not have a scratch on ya...

The air bag didn't deploy and not a scratch.

I must have someone above that was looking out for me.

Let's say that it has taken me awhile before I hit WOT again. I get supersensitive still to this day because of that incident when I go WOT.

I have thought about this many times and most often I make sure that there are few cars on the road before I go WOT.

[John F. Russo]

what highway were you hopping onto? around 495 or 95?

Didn't I speak to you on the phone once and planned to see you sometime around Rte 495?

I was on Rte 93 in Wilmington, Massachusetts going north.

[John F. Russo]

The sensation had passed after the beginning of the fishtail. The erst is so smooth you never feel it. (Believe me, I Know)

As for flipping a Marauder... the only way possible is if the tires/wheels hit an obstruction on the ground that stopped the leading edge slide. Even then, stuff breaks and the car keeps sliding.

You could jump it or launch it and flip it, but flipping it on flat open road ain't gonna happen.

If the tires are wide enough (but not too wide) and sticky enough the possiblity does increase. Maybe even turn over?

[hot-rauder]

Didn't I speak to you on the phone once and planned to see you sometime around Rte 495?

I was on Rte 93 in Wilmington, Massachusetts going north.


Nope... Might have been Jarod. (Raudermaster)

He had a meet not too long ago on Rte 495.

93 huh? I was just there not too long ago.

BTW I'm Adam

[John F. Russo]

Nope... Might have been Jarod. (Raudermaster)

He had a meet not too long ago on Rte 495.

93 huh? I was just there not too long ago.

BTW I'm Adam


Hi Adam. This guy is about your age and works at EMC2.

[hot-rauder]

Hi Adam. This guy is about your age and works at EMC2.

Yup it's Jarod... Always been a really nice guy to work with, at least from my side:P.

Well be safe driving, and keep your foot out of the throttle! lol i know its tempting. i spun mine around getting onto Rte 190 earlier this week. it was nerve racking driving it for the next few miles afterwards, esepcially because the roads were so open and bare.

[Aren Jay]

I would love to have been the passenger in the Ford Ranger.

[Raudermaster]

Yea it was me John that you were talking to before. Man that must have been a wild ride. Glad you are OK though and that Blue isn't a goner.

[SC Cheesehead]

Yea it was me John that you were talking to before. Man that must have been a wild ride. Glad you are OK though and that Blue isn't a goner.

Me too! Not that many Blues around, if ya gotta wreck a MM, may as well be a Black one! :rolleyes:

SCCH

[Raudermaster]

Hey, I don't take too kindly to that expression. I want all the Blue's, DTR's and SB's gone so Black will be the rarest of all colors.

[John F. Russo]

Isn't there anyone working except me? I have an excuse--I own my company!

[hot-rauder]

Me too! Not that many Blues around, if ya gotta wreck a MM, may as well be a Black one! :rolleyes:

SCCH


AGREED.... I hope nobody has to go through the experience of actually having to drive a blue LMFAO!

:cuke: Dont be Whack, Buy a Black :cuke:

[John F. Russo]

Yea it was me John that you were talking to before. Man that must have been a wild ride. Glad you are OK though and that Blue isn't a goner.

I still have you in my plans.

But I have been down that way only once in the last few months.

[hot-rauder]

I still have you in my plans.

But I have been down that way only once in the last few months.

John, my good friend just purchased a beach house on Hampton Beach....

I come up there quite often now. I would love to make a detour and meet up sometime. Thanks to your well described location, you arent very far from the 495-rte 28 intersection.

[BruteForce]

Am I reading this right? This happened 4 years ago?

Date: 1/8/04

:help: :confused: :sleepy:

[hot-rauder]

Isn't there anyone working except me? I have an excuse--I own my company!


I'm on Workman's Comp... cut off part of a finger lol

Jarod, are you still working nights?

and everyone else, well i can't help you there John!

[Bluerauder]

Am I reading this right? This happened 4 years ago?

Date: 1/8/04
That was my question too. Maybe the "04" is a typo.



I floored the car at about 50 to 60 mph, then as usual and the rear started to fishtail. So I continued holding the gas pedal to the floor. In a matter of seconds I was watching a large amount of blue smoke in front of my windshield from my tires. Then at a slower speed I clearly remember the car was pointing to the breakdown lane trying not to go into the woods. Despite my breaking, I ended up about 20 feet into the woods.

I don't think that your wheel locked up at all. Such things happen frequently in NASCAR racing. When the car started "fishtailing" you had already lost traction. Normal reaction to regain stability and control is to back off the accelerator. Instead you continued to keep your foot planted at WOT. Steering may have brought the car back in line; but it may have aggravated the skid. Once the back end kicked out, you were into a spin before you could lift off the gas. Since you saw blue (tire) smoke out your front window, I suspect that you did a complete 180 degree (otherwise the smoke would be behind you) .... then the car continued for another 90 degrees to put you sideways off the road and into the woods. JMHO.

[Aren Jay]

I work from home.

Actually, if i'm not buying stock I work everwhere when the market is open.

[sailsmen]

Why blue smoke?

06-18-2003, 08:54 PM
sailsmen
Contributing Member


Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: 30 miles north "The Big Easy"
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Back end Breaking loose @1-2 Shift

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I pulled up to a stop light that merges on to an 8 lane hwy via a 2 lane 70* left turn. I notice no one behind and no one right or left. View it as an opportunity to find the handling dynamics and limits.

Lite turns green roll to 10mph and floor it, midway thru the 70* left turn the 1-2 shift occurs. Lose all traction on the back, spin 45* furhter left, counter steer right. Traction bites and turn thru 90* right, counter steer left and turn thru 90* left, counter steer right and steer thru 90* right, counter left steer thru 45* left finally going straight down highway.

Very impressed with the steering and dynamics on a 4,200lb. vehicle.

Althoug I have seen many on this board talk of need for more low speed power she definitely has enough to break loose the back end with moderate lateral G's on the 1-2 shift.

The point being don't let the initial slow build up due to the large mass lull you into thinking she hasn't the power to get you in trouble.
__________________

[John F. Russo]

John, my good friend just purchased a beach house on Hampton Beach....

I come up there quite often now. I would love to make a detour and meet up sometime. Thanks to your well described location, you arent very far from the 495-rte 28 intersection.

You can come to my company in Salem NH almost any time.

Call me at 603 898 0020 x101 and make arrangements for a ride of your life with you at the wheel!

[Raudermaster]

I'm on Workman's Comp... cut off part of a finger lol

Jarod, are you still working nights?

and everyone else, well i can't help you there John!

Yep, for now! I'm working on becoming a tech and make mucho dollars! :banana:

[John F. Russo]

I'm on Workman's Comp... cut off part of a finger lol

Jarod, are you still working nights?

and everyone else, well i can't help you there John!


I guess my question doesn' apply to you.

I'm sorry to hear about your recent accident.

[John F. Russo]

That was my question too. Maybe the "04" is a typo.




I don't think that your wheel locked up at all. Such things happen frequently in NASCAR racing. When the car started "fishtailing" you had already lost traction. Normal reaction to regain stability and control is to back off the accelerator. Instead you continued to keep your foot planted at WOT. Steering may have brought the car back in line; but it may have aggravated the skid. Once the back end kicked out, you were into a spin before you could lift off the gas. Since you saw blue (tire) smoke out your front window, I suspect that you did a complete 180 degree (otherwise the smoke would be behind you) .... then the car continued for another 90 degrees to put you sideways off the road and into the woods. JMHO.


Great observation.

I wrote the above story from my log except my log originally had that I made a "360 degree turn". But as I wrote the above abbreviated story, I thought to myself that couldn't have happened. So I simplified my story.

But now you made a great conclusion from my observation--"smoke all around the car". This could not have happened if my car just turned clockwise 90 degrees. So my original log had it correctly about what most likely happened. I'm sure glad that the traffic was very light.

There is one other fact that I didn't mention. My traction control light was on continuously for a day. So after this incident I went to my dealer and they couldn't find anything and so cleared the code.

When I lost control of the car, it happened so fast that I don't recall ever stepping on the brake. I now can recall that I felt like I was coming out of a spin. It still amazes me that a 4200 lb. car would move so fast that I couldn't sense any part of the spin cycle except for the very end. It had to take less than a couple of seconds. I have been at amusement parks with rides in cars that would spin around. My 'spinning' situation was much faster than those small cars having much less weight.

I'm pretty fast in avoiding potholes in roads. But there was no possibility that I could have steered out of it

As you suggest, when I have any slipping action, I back off the accelerator to reduce the fishtailing unless there is only a slight indication of it.

Some how I still think that my right front wheel locked up for a couple of seconds just to get me into a spin.

As I relive this incident, it is just a reminder that I have to be very careful and wait for that very light far away traffic on a highway before I do a test run. An airport would be a great place.

Thank you for your illuminating explanation.

[sailsmen]

Why would tire smoke be blue?

Usually blue smoke is oil burning.

[Cordoba1]

Is there any chance that you briefly passed out?

[DOOM]

Why would tire smoke be blue?

Usually blue smoke is oil burning.

because the car was blue.

[Bluerauder]

It still amazes me that a 4200 lb. car would move so fast that I couldn't sense any part of the spin cycle except for the very end. It had to take less than a couple of seconds. I have been at amusement parks with rides in cars that would spin around. My 'spinning' situation was much faster than those small cars having much less weight.
I suspect that the reason that you couldn't "sense" the spin cycle was that the driver's seat location is probably pretty close to the center of rotation. You can compare this to the kiddie merry-go-rounds in the park. Kids can stand in the center of the merry-go-round with no problem; but the ones on the outside edge are hanging on for dear life. :D Just eyeballing weight distribution, I would guess that the Center of Gravity for the MM is somewhere around the shifter on the console. The closer that you are to this point, the less of a sensation you would experience. Again, JMHO.

As to the color of tire smoke, I venture that it was probably closer to the color of typical burnout smoke ..... or some shade of white. Tire compound and surface coating may alter this somewhat. Lighting and weather conditions may alter your perception of that color and possibly give a bluish tint. Surface spray at Richmond International Raceway (RIR) results in a dirty yellow tire smoke.

[John F. Russo]

Is there any chance that you briefly passed out?

I have never done so to my knowledge. I could have become disoriented momentarily. But I do clearly remember the large amount of blue smoke all in front of my windshield just before I came to a final stop after sliding.

Once the car stopped (pointing toward the breakdown lane) in the 2nd and
3rd lane of the 4-lane highway, I knew immeidately that I had drive toward the breakdown lane. I stepped on the gas and went straight toward the woods. I just went a few feet more than I should and grazed a tree with my left front part of the car.

[John F. Russo]

I suspect that the reason that you couldn't "sense" the spin cycle was that the driver's seat location is probably pretty close to the center of rotation. You can compare this to the kiddie merry-go-rounds in the park. Kids can stand in the center of the merry-go-round with no problem; but the ones on the outside edge are hanging on for dear life. :D Just eyeballing weight distribution, I would guess that the Center of Gravity for the MM is somewhere around the shifter on the console. The closer that you are to this point, the less of a sensation you would experience. Again, JMHO.

As to the color of tire smoke, I venture that it was probably closer to the color of typical burnout smoke ..... or some shade of white. Tire compound and surface coating may alter this somewhat. Lighting and weather conditions may alter your perception of that color and possibly give a bluish tint. Surface spray at Richmond International Raceway (RIR) results in a dirty yellow tire smoke.

Another good observation. You've been around awhile.

I would have thought that if I was not spinning so fast because I was close to the center of gravity, I would think that I should have been able to see the car moving in slow motion. That wasn't the case. Maybe I was momentarily disoriented.

[Bluerauder]

Maybe I was momentarily disoriented.
This is very likely. Your normal "viewing" position is through the front windshield. Since the incident happened quickly as you said, you probably continued to look forward as the scenery rotated past you pretty quickly. Your eyes would not have been able to focus on any particular object unless your head was moving opposite the direction of the spin. The tire smoke further probably further confused your perception by blurring or obscuring your normal scene. But as far as your brain was concerned, the inside the car scene really had not changed at all .... just outside.

[John F. Russo]

This is very likely. Your normal "viewing" position is through the front windshield. Since the incident happened quickly as you said, you probably continued to look forward as the scenery rotated past you pretty quickly. Your eyes would not have been able to focus on any particular object unless your head was moving opposite the direction of the spin. The tire smoke further probably further confused your perception by blurring or obscuring your normal scene. But as far as your brain was concerned, the inside the car scene really had not changed at all .... just outside.

Could you call me at 781 389 6879 any time. Or send me an email and I'll call you.

I would like to simulate this situation with my car somehow. But it is too difficult to discuss it in this format.

[Bluerauder]

I will try to call you tonight or tomorrow ....

Based on my understanding of your description of the incident. The pic below captures what I think happened in your case. Without seeing the actual skid marks, it is kinda difficult to determine exactly. Direction of original travel is depicted from bottom to top. The last 4 positions of the smiley face should be about where you noticed the tire smoke (note that the car was facing backwards by then).

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/1/8/9/1/MarauderSkid.jpg

[knine]

Shouldn't that be a different expression thru the event, kinda like::) then :eek: then :help: then :sweat:then :bigcry: then:mad2:?? Just asking ;)

[John F. Russo]

[QUOTE=Bluerauder;577286]I will try to call you tonight or tomorrow ....

Based on my understanding of your description of the incident. The pic below captures what I think happened in your case. Without seeing the actual skid marks, it is kinda difficult to determine exactly. Direction of original travel is depicted from bottom to top. The last 4 positions of the smiley face should be about where you noticed the tire smoke (note that the car was facing backwards by then).



Boy! Those are great graphics. Thank you. A picture is worth a thousand words. Now I can show them to other people.

One clarification: I saw the smoke on the next to last car position that you have. I remember seeing the woods just moments after the car stopped sliding sidewards for a couple of seconds. This means that the last car position was pointing straight into the woods. This is etched in my mind.

It was a four lane highway plus a breakdown lane.

[John F. Russo]

The sensation had passed after the beginning of the fishtail. The erst is so smooth you never feel it. (Believe me, I Know)

As for flipping a Marauder... the only way possible is if the tires/wheels hit an obstruction on the ground that stopped the leading edge slide. Even then, stuff breaks and the car keeps sliding.

You could jump it or launch it and flip it, but flipping it on flat open road ain't gonna happen.


Just to get an understanding about your data base for your statement, "Have you personally had any car--especially your MM--sliding sidewards on an alpalt road at about 80+ mph?" Also, at what road temperature?

[Bluerauder]

Boy! Those are great graphics. Thank you. A picture is worth a thousand words. Now I can show them to other people.

One clarification: I saw the smoke on the next to last car position that you have. I remember seeing the woods just moments after the car stopped sliding sidewards for a couple of seconds. This means that the last car position was pointing straight into the woods. This is etched in my mind.

It was a four lane highway plus a breakdown lane.
Glad to be of assistance. :D

If you didn't see smoke until the next to last position, then I would guess that the wind was blowing from left to right (toward the woods) in the diagram. Maybe even closer to the direction of the "light red" arrow on the car headed into the woods. :dunno:

[racorcey]

John,

With all due respect to your car and coming out of the accident alive....why would you ever want to play around with 450+ HP on a public highway at 11 degrees F? Putting other potential brake problems aside, even performance tires lose about 20% of their "sticky" below 50 degrees, and more than 50% below 20 degrees - and we're not even talking wet yet. I'm not chastising you for it, but I would have thought that you might consider the tire problem before worrying about anything else.

I hope your losses were minimal....

[John F. Russo]

Glad to be of assistance. :D

If you didn't see smoke until the next to last position, then I would guess that the wind was blowing from left to right (toward the woods) in the diagram. Maybe even closer to the direction of the "light red" arrow on the car headed into the woods. :dunno:



I just don't remember the turning clearly until the last few seconds. At that time I was completely aware of the car sliding with the smoke in front of the windshield.

[John F. Russo]

John,

With all due respect to your car and coming out of the accident alive....why would you ever want to play around with 450+ HP on a public highway at 11 degrees F? Putting other potential brake problems aside, even performance tires lose about 20% of their "sticky" below 50 degrees, and more than 50% below 20 degrees - and we're not even talking wet yet. I'm not chastising you for it, but I would have thought that you might consider the tire problem before worrying about anything else.

I hope your losses were minimal....

I appreciate your frankness.

Sometimes we don't see danger clearly enough. In fact as I'm going through this thread, I'm reliving that circumstance.

Now that I know what could happen, I'm concerned to the point that I'm afraid of any WOT condition even though I have done it about 15 times since then.

The MM is a great car. Not stepping on that pedal is like having someone bake an apple pie and smelling the aroma and watching it on the counter and not eating it. It is tough. I just as soon sell the car. (The car frame was never damaged it was all body work.)

I still feel that my traction control/ABS system malfuntioned to cause this spinning. If I can't again simulate this condition then I feel it won't happen again. And I would feel comfortable about an occasional WOT. Otherwise, yes I feel uncomfortable.

My testing condition must not at all cause any other person especially to be harmed. Of course I don't either.

That is why a local small airport would be great.

I'm pondering.

(10 minutes later)

Bluemaruder called me and we had a good discussion. I thanked him for the time he spent on the nice diagram he made to facilitate the discussion.

He discussed his own youthful experience of spinning around like me. Once it was a deliberate steering wheel being turned hard on a wet road. In my case I never moved the steering wheel and the road was bone dry but very cold.

During our discussion, my comment describing my incident of my car "fishtailing" needs clarification. The car did not leave it's track as it was during the initial WOT condition. The initial sensation was like a lurch to one side without any movement other than the car body moving slightly. This usually happens to me once I drop the car from 4th gear to 3rd gear and go into WOT at 60+ mph. The surge of power seems to go to the right rear wheel.

It seems that there isn't even power to each of the rear wheels. If I get one of those 'locker devices' for my rear brakes, I wonder if it will eliminate this condition. Even though I can't see how it would have anything to do with my spin out.







The road was completely dry.

What's the source of the the adhesion data you're quoting?

[sailsmen]

I have 184 runs down the 1,320' of which 90+ are S/C.

Do all the WOT you want so long as the steering wheel is straight.

If something goes wrong let up both feet and she will straighten herself out. The Marauder is a very stable platform.

My experience is the limited slip only works with a heavy foot on the accelerator. Slowly push on the pedal and the clutches will not engage.

On 2 different occasions when it was 50* out I WOT at 20mph and the car immediately started to fish tail. I just pulled both feet up and she straightened out. This was w/ Nitto DR. Got rid of the Nitto.

Point is you have more HP than traction.:D

[racorcey]

I appreciate your frankness.

I still feel that my traction control/ABS system malfuntioned to cause this spinning. If I can't again simulate this condition then I feel it won't happen again. And I would feel comfortable about an occasional WOT. Otherwise, yes I feel uncomfortable.

The road was completely dry.

What's the source of the the adhesion data you're quoting?

John,

Of course, I don't mean to seem like a smart a$$:) regarding your loss. As far as ABS system malfunctions go...about 6 months after I got my MM, I noticed the ABS light flashing as I got near work. I called the local dealer who had me bring it right down. The light flashed all the way to the dealer (about 5 miles), and then stopped as I turned into their driveway. They checked it out as best they could, but of course could find nothing wrong. The light has never come on again, unless I forced it on :burnout:.

As far as the source of tire adhesion information, it's been at least 10 years since I looked up that data, but at the time, it was available from Goodyear, and at least two other major manufacturers. I needed the info because I had to replace the tires on my Impala SS - and Goodyear had just quit making them. Sound familiar? I'm sure a little research should reveal the info.

Basically, adhesion is not a linear thing. While tires are tested at their extremes, it is a fact that the hotter a tire gets (short of outright destruction or excessive tread wear), the stickier it is. I'm talking performance tires...there actually are some tires out there that, beyond certain (high) temperature limits, are less sticky the hotter they get. However, on the flip side, between 75 degrees on down to 45-50 degrees, normal and performance tires start to loose a bit of their stickiness. It starts to really drop below 20 degrees, and by the time you reach -10 to -20 degrees, you really want to be careful during exteme braking, and, ahem, acceleration :eek:. And that's all on perfectly dry roads. I don't have to tell you about friction modifiers.

I have personally experienced what you went through (several times), although it was many moons ago, and my reflexes were better then. Us "older" guys don't have those reflexes anymore, generally speaking. What we do have, in theory, is a better working knowledge of the limits of tires, temperatures, and the dreams of our youth (read: speed demon).

- Randy

[John F. Russo]

Hey, I don't take too kindly to that expression. I want all the Blue's, DTR's and SB's gone so Black will be the rarest of all colors.


If that is you in that picture, I not sure I want to meet you!