Ugh! Got a ticket...

[QWK SVT]

I'm the first one to raise my hand when I make a mistake, but I need to vent - I'm still a little pissed about this situation. This also allows me to document my thoughts, while the memory is fresh...

During this morning's rush hour (approx 7:45am), I drove onto the highway on-ramp, as I do every morning, on my way to work. In about 200 yards, this on-ramp then becomes the exit ramp, to take the southbound highway.
(for locals, it was the Victoria Park on-ramp to the 401 west, and from there I take the 404 south)

This morning, the vehicle in front of me (Vehicle A) was travelling at a slow rate of speed, approx 20KM/h. This is like doing a 15mph, entering a highway with a posted 60mph limit! I know it snowed yesterday, but the conditions don't call for this...

As we reached the end of the on-ramp, entering the area where merging is permissible, Vehicle A proceeded to increase speed, slightly. I did so as well, keeping about 10 feet of distance between the vehicles.

Vehicle A signalled to change lanes to the left, joining the westbound traffic. I proceeded to start to increase speed, at this time, approx 35-40KM/h. As soon as there was enough room, I started to pass. I was not changing lanes, as my path was to continue in the same lane to take the off-ramp south.

At this time, the undercover SUV driven by the officer pulled into the exit lane (from behind and to the left, an undetermined distance behind and it is unknown from which lane), and turned his lights on.

When I say left, I mean it. He completely left the scene, while I was still there - prior to allowing me to safely enter the traffic, while all 4 tires were on the snow covered shoulder.

The ticket - following too closely. $110, but that's not the big thing... It's 4-points. To put into perspective, this is the same # of points as if I had been speeding by 30-49km (18 - 30 mph)... The insurance company will love that!

I'm going to fight this one. I have to - There isn't even a lesser infraction that this can be pled down to... Now I need to figure out if I fight myself, or hire a "traffic ticket agent" to fight for me...

I think my only hope is to argue that, in this case, the law is VERY subjective, and I felt that I was following at a reasonable and prudent distance, given my knowledge of my own vehicle, etc. I say this, because I still feel I was a safe distance, given the speed, etc.

Here is the exact wording of the law I "broke":

Section 158. (1) The driver of a motor vehicle or street car shall not follow another vehicle or street car more closely than is reasonable and prudent having due regard for the speed of the vehicle and the traffic on and the conditions of the highway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 158 (1).

Sorry for the length - added full detail and had to rant :mad2:

[Aren Jay]

Can I call you a Tailgater now?

[arejayesss]

You feel you were within a safe and reasonable following distance, and the officer feels you were not. Unfortunately, thats how its gonna go down if you fight it. Its his professional opinion against your civilian opinion. You may just want to consider this an occasional 'road use tax' as others have said before.

[Bluerauder]

I thought "you" were always in Vehicle "A" and everyone else was in "B', "C", and "D", etc. :D

At 15 KPH (that's 9.3 MPH) or about 13.64 feet per second. Using the 2-second rule which is typically accepted, then a safe distance would have been closer to 25-27 feet. By your own admission, your distance was about 10 feet. Case Closed. No contest.

Even using the "old" one vehicle length per every 10 MPH would have still put you at 1 Marauder length = ~ 20 feet for safe following distance.

If you maintained the 10 feet separation as you sped up to 35-40 KPH (ie. 21-25 MPH), safe distance should have been about 60-75 feet or 3-4 car length. Sorry ... they got cha.

Too bad about the points ..... :(

[knine]

I've got a nice "I'm not tailgating, I'm drafting" bumpersticker you can have :lol: Sucks, sorry about the script dude :cheesed:

[QWK SVT]

Can I call you a Tailgater now?
I guess - assuming this sticks :(


You feel you were within a safe and reasonable following distance, and the officer feels you were not. Unfortunately, thats how its gonna go down if you fight it. Its his professional opinion against your civilian opinion. You may just want to consider this an occasional 'road use tax' as others have said before.
I understand - it's a very "he said/I said" sort of law. There are no guidelines, to quantify how far back one should be. "Reasonable and prudent" can have different meanings, to different people. Had we been travelling faster, I certainly would have left more space between me and the car in front...

As stated, it was during rush hour, on the busiest highway in North America (link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_401_(Ontario)), in the heart of the 7th largest city (if you include Mexico City). It takes me, on a "good day" average, >45-minutes to travel 16 miles. Basically, this is stop and go traffic, at it's best. Almost EVERYONE on the road at this time could be cited for the exact same thing.

My problem, on a going forward basis, is that this is a 4-point infraction. It's worse than running a red light. This is my only infraction on record, but the "occasional road use tax" is likely to be several hundred dollars in insurance, per year. Costly, to say the least.

[QWK SVT]

I thought "you" were always in Vehicle "A" and everyone else was in "B', "C", and "D", etc. :D

At 15 KPH (that's 9.3 MPH) or about 13.64 feet per second. Using the 2-second rule which is typically accepted, then a safe distance would have been closer to 25-27 feet. By your own admission, your distance was about 10 feet. Case Closed. No contest.

Even using the "old" one vehicle length per every 10 MPH would have still put you at 1 Marauder length = ~ 20 feet for safe following distance.

If you maintained the 10 feet separation as you sped up to 35-40 KPH (ie. 21-25 MPH), safe distance should have been about 60-75 feet or 3-4 car length. Sorry ... they got cha.

Too bad about the points ..... :(

I guess I should have used "Vehicle SMAH" for the description of the other car. Slow moving... Well, you can figure out the AH part. ;) I may have even overestimated speed, a little, but I do know there was no less than 10 feet of space.

I know that "but everyone else was doing it" doesn't go very far, but really, as per my post above, but in rush hour traffic, cars are generally packed a little tighter together. Again, the letter of the law boils down to a completely subjective call, that lacks any means of accurate measurement.

It's not like I was exactly rubbing the paint of the bumper of the car, or blasting to WOT as soon as there was an opening. With clear vision of what was in front of me, the clear space in front of Vehicle SMAH and the shoulder to my right (should an emergency situation arise), I was more than comfortable with the distance I allowed myself.

As I understand it (through a little surfing), this infraction is most often citied in instances where there was a collision (certainly not the case, here). That would be the proof that the follower was too close. In this scenario, safety was a consideration of mine (as it is every time I get behind the wheel), and was never in question. By the very definition set out in the law, doesn't that mean that I was not breaking the law?

[ckadiddle]

Can you take the "idiot driver" class to get rid of the points in your state? Good news is that you can take it over the internet nowadays. The current idiot driver class wisdom is to allow three seconds of following time between rear bumper of car ahead of you and your front bumper. Add another second for each ten mph over 50 you are travelling.

After sliding into the rear of a Ford Explorer on a clear sunny dry pavement day and taking my idiot driver class onine, I am being frigging careful with my following distance. I can tell you from experience that ten feet is far too little if the car ahead abruptly stops. I know it is difficult to do that in congested urban traffic, but you can back off a few more feet when you think about it. Doing without my MM for six weeks was far, far worse than the financial costs and class.

[MADRODER]

Bad weather brings out the worse in some people especially the cops, they look even harder for improper road manners and jump on every opportunity to nail someone. I believe he would have left you alone if the roads were dry but due to yesterday's storm and this mornings road conditions he jumped all over you....fight it you never know

[ts-pa]

If I were to drive with a car length in front of me, I'd be hitting the brakes constantly as other drivers force their way into that spot. Anyone who drives on the highways knows that this goes on. This is particularly bad on congested highways such as the DC beltway.

If you were travelling the same speed as the slow poke, your stopping distances are pretty much the same. Except that you would have a delayed reaction time of maybe 1/2 second or more. That delay is what makes the 10ft poosibly too close. Braking is about 15fps reduction in speed. So 1/2 second is about 7ft. distance.

Here (http://www.csgnetwork.com/stopdistinfo.html) is an interesting read on stopping distance.

[captain]

My thoughts...Come to terms with the ticket, don't "fight" it...
negotiate it
Judges love to see you squirm, Show remorse, tell him you saw Jesus, Promise to never do it again, practice your acting skills and settle for 2 pts. Its Money.

[TiTo35]

4 points is kinda high...IMO

[Blk Mamba]

I'm not sure of Canadian law, but set a court date, postpone to another date, postpone that date, Etc. after several times attend court, if the traffic officer is not in attendance the case is thrown out by the judge. Good Luck, (this works for speeding tickets also)

[Blackmobile]

Get a lawyer to fight this one for ya. If you have a good record you should fair well in court, if it ever gets there.

[QWK SVT]

Bad weather brings out the worse in some people especially the cops, they look even harder for improper road manners and jump on every opportunity to nail someone. I believe he would have left you alone if the roads were dry but due to yesterday's storm and this mornings road conditions he jumped all over you....fight it you never know

Road conditions? Must've been worse, your neck of the woods... The lanes of the 401/404 were dry.


My thoughts...Come to terms with the ticket, don't "fight" it...
negotiate it
Judges love to see you squirm, Show remorse, tell him you saw Jesus, Promise to never do it again, practice your acting skills and settle for 2 pts. Its Money.

There is no "idiots course" that can be taken, they don't have that option, here... I could plead guilty with a reason, but it's still 4 points. There is no lesser charge that I can settle down to (it's not like knocking down a speeding by 30 over to speeding by 15 over), so it's all or nothing. All the "traffic ticket agents" offer free consultations, so I'm going to see what they say... I've got two weeks until I have to give notice to appear...

[MM2004]

Will your insurance company be notified of this incident?

If not, it may be worth just paying and letting go. They may not even see it.

Four points sucks for that, I agree. You have to look at time fighting it if it requires missing work, school etc. that would impact further finances.

Is your driving record clean besides this.

Just me thinking out loud.

Mike.

[twin03]

Bro, from a police officer point ( I'm a Baltimore City Police officer) take that sh$* to court. We as city police officer's don't mess with pax payers........