Public servant VS. Public servant

[SID210SA]

I dont think there was any justification for arresting a fire captain......any hear about this one?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=233_1203031330

[Bluerauder]

I dont think there was any justification for arresting a fire captain......any hear about this one?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=233_1203031330
Servant .... :P

I think that it is a darn shame that something like this comes down to legal action. The people in this country have gone "Lawsuit Happy" happy looking for the FREE MONEY lottery.

Personally, I have mixed feelings over this incident. I completely understand that need to provide for the safety of rescue workers, police, firemen, EMTs and the victims on site. The number of police that get injured or killed on the highways during traffic stops and accident control is astounding. Virginia seems to lose 2-3 per year that way. :(

On the other hand, it nearly always seems to be Rescue SOP to shut down ALL available lanes with police crusiers, fire trucks, and ambulances all with flashing lights. They even park on the other side of the road and blocked its flow as well. :rolleyes: One single fender bender without injuries can shut down a major highway like I-95 or I-66 for nearly an hour. The results are catastropic in an area that is on the ragged edge of traffic movement every day of the year, all hours of the day (except of course between 4-6 AM, Christmas morning).

Somehow there needs to be a balance of Safety vs. Traffic Control and for the most part, I just don't see it in practice very often. I have even seen our local police here block a lane & a half for what appears to be a "non-problem" and filing reports and such.

I'll probably take some heat for this view .. but what the heck. Some would say if it were me in the wrecked car that I would want the whole road shut down. Maybe so ... but I still think that just enough to maintain real safety is sufficient.

As far a suing a fire chief for not moving a fire truck. Sheesh !!!! :o How embarrassing for everyone.

[Egon Spengler]

Accident scenes and fire scenes are dangerous enough. any way to protect the workers is welcome... the police get mad if we put a truck across the road and blocks traffic to protect us working at a scene but you know what... I would rather have a cop pissed at me then risk getting hit by a passing vehicle... also, our chief and deputy chiefs agree... put the truck across the road and let the cops be angry... the chiefs want all their personnel going home after the scene... not to the hospital... any one of us on my department would rather be arrested then move their rig and risk injuring a firefighter or EMS worker because of a passer by clipping them

[Shora]

I'll probably take some heat for this view .. but what the heck. Some would say if it were me in the wrecked car that I would want the whole road shut down. Maybe so ... but I still think that just enough to maintain real safety is sufficient.

As far a suing a fire chief for not moving a fire truck. Sheesh !!!! :o How embarrassing for everyone.


First, everyone agrees that "just enough (room) to maintain real safety is sufficient." Not to be rude but...DOH!!!! The question at hand is "in this case and from what you can see in the video, is it your opinion that "too much room for safety was allocated as a result of the fire truck blocking the open lane closest to the scene?"

Can you imagine how dangerous it would be to try to do your job with that lane open?

All it takes is one idiot and there very well may be more injury, or worse, at the rescue scene. All it takes is ONE idiot and there are so very many of them at all times on our roads.

Also, I don't think you understood the video or what occurred in this scene.

Rescue workers pulled up to the scene and attempted to help rescue the injured party. The cop asked them to move their truck so that he can free another lane for traffic. The Chief refused to move the truck because he wanted it near by to aid him in doing his job. The officer loses control and arrests the Fire Chief in the MIDDLE OF A RESCUE SCEEN. The ego maniac "Officer" is forced to pay $18,000 as a result of his actions. The Fire Chief pays nothing.

[SID210SA]

I see it both ways as well.....I dont know if every state has this law but here in Texas you must move over one lane for an emergency vehicle on the shoulder or slow to 20 mph if you choose to stay in the lane next to where they are stoped, but I see almost no one follow that law. Not to mention that people need to move their vehicles out of the roadway if they are able to do so as not to impede traffic. But I also see some officers that block the road for no appearent reason after an accident has cleared and every one has left the scene. The concerne is for the safety of the people working the accident scene and I think the Fire engine should stay where it is....People are in too much of a hurry these days.

[Egon Spengler]

Received this from a firefighter that sends out notices on activities in the fire service all over the world.

MO. FIRE CAPT WINS AFTER "APPARATUS BLOCKING" ON-SCENE ARREST: Federal court jurors awarded $17,500 yesterday to a Fire Captain arrested by a Hazelwood cop in a dispute over where the fire apparatus was parked during a 2003 car crash rescue. Juror Betsy Vennemann said after the verdict, "We wanted to make a statement that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated."

Capt. David Wilson won $7,500 in compensatory damages and $10,000 in punitive damages. Jurors, including a nun, said they went easy on the defendant, Officer Todd Greeves, because he has a family and they weren't sure who would pay the costs. Fire Captain Wilson testified that the Robertson FPD apparatus was parked in a way to protect rescuers working to free a victim from wreckage along I-270. Greeves ordered that the truck be moved to accommodate passing traffic and arrested Wilson for ignoring him. Wilson was released after 23 minutes and never charged. He sued, claiming civil rights violations that opened him to anxiety and humiliation. Greeves told the court the truck was creating a hazard and not adding to safety at the scene. Jurors interviewed after the verdict said their feeling about Greeves was reinforced during the punitive phase of the trial, when they heard there had been other complaints about him. An internal affairs investigation determined that Greeves used excessive force in a 2002 arrest, court documents show, and was the subject of several other complaints. Before Wednesday's deliberations, U.S. Magistrate Judge Mary Ann Medler had already ruled that Greeves had no probable cause to arrest Fire Captain Wilson, who she said had state law on his side. She also dismissed the City of Hazelwood as a defendant. "The whole police and fire communities have been watching this case," said Bevis Schock, one of Wilson's lawyers. "Everybody wanted to know who controls the fire scene."
Greeves' lawyer, Peter Dunne, said he was disappointed in the verdict and the discussion of the other complaints against Greeves. Dunne also said it was unfair to suggest that Greeves did not care about the firefighters' safety. Dunne said that the city's insurance would not pay for the costs and that the issue is "complicated." Schock said he thinks the insurance probably would pay the compensatory damages, and possibly the punitive. Also at issue is payment of unspecified lawyers' fees.
Another lesson for fire & cops to get together before the next run...and figure out the laws and rules-and develop the plans... so everyone knows who will do what when operating on the roadways.

[Bluerauder]

Also, I don't think you understood the video or what occurred in this scene.
I think that you missed the entire point of my comments. But, I am not surprsied. :rolleyes:

[Shora]

As far a suing a fire chief for not moving a fire truck. Sheesh !!!! :o How embarrassing for everyone.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Shora http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=581685#post58 1685)
Also, I don't think you understood the video or what occurred in this scene.


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I think that you missed the entire point of my comments. But, I am not surprsied. :rolleyes:

I don't think so. I just thought that your comments were rather vague. It went along the line of; "They should leave only enough room as deemed necessary for working in relative safety." -Pure Genius.

One thing I know for sure, is that I didn't miss the fact were you thought that the "Fire Chief" was sued. ;)

[Cordoba1]

All arguments about safety aside, "arresting" the fire-captain was going too far. If the police officer had a beef with the procedure, he should have taken it up AFTER taking care of the more pressing issue: the accident. A citation would have been more apporpriate.

[cyclopsram]

Most states have an Incident Command set up at a scene and the agency in charge is the agency in charge. Not knowing the local rules for the state I cannot comment further than to say that if the FD had control of the scene per protocol, the PO had no jurisdiction, if not the opposite may be true. Sane heads tend to make for better working as a team. Very few glory boys make it to retirement without having to change agencies.

[Ross]

The cop got off too easily. The fire fighters were trying to assist an injured victim at an accident scene. In a matter of a few seconds the cop lost his cool and wanted to show who was boss. Instead of letting the paramedics do what they had to do first, then moving emergency vehicles second, the cop wanted the world to know that "NOBODY ****'s WITH ME!"
It's pigs like that who give good cops a bad name.

[Richy04]

There are JO's on every job and lately it seems that its getting worse. I've been in LE for quite some time and officers were reasonable in thinking for the most part when I started. Nowadays, it seems more and more Alpha hotels are coming on the job with absolutely no sense at all. I am in NJ and heard some "real tools of the highway patrol" stories. One doosh locked up his captain for DWI in the next town over. A set of troopers locked up a township cop in a township RMP and OC'ed him because he was snide. Who TF pulles over another police car anyway? And then there is the dreaded "locked up fire captain" story from last year (for the same reason).

I think its reasonable to assume that a fire captain knows just where to put his trucks to prevent injury to his men and at that point, the police should mind their business and do what is required to keep the scene safe while they do what needs to be done.

Just the other day, I had to shut down a lane for pot hole repair (2.5 ft by 9 inches deep.) Its a two lane roadway and caused a minor traffic snarl for an hour or so. Some J.O. captain from another agency complained to our command center and they called me. I told them to tell him TFB and if he would kindly get off at the next exit, Duane Reade would sell him some diapers and tissues. If anyone damaged their vehicles in that crater, I would have sent them to his house to pay for the damages.

Sometimes, the big balls have to be put aside when other agencies have to do their thing. I think they know what is right at the time. So sit back in the patrol vehicle and do a crossword puzzle while they iron out the mess they were trained to do. Thats my rant and I'm sticking to it.

[SHERIFF]

The cop got off too easily. The fire fighters were trying to assist an injured victim at an accident scene. In a matter of a few seconds the cop lost his cool and wanted to show who was boss. Instead of letting the paramedics do what they had to do first, then moving emergency vehicles second, the cop wanted the world to know that "NOBODY ****'s WITH ME!"
It's pigs like that who give good cops a bad name.

BINGO! We have a winner! The fire captain committed "contempt of cop" on the side of the road. And the cop's resulting street justice should have cost him about $100,000 in my opinion.

[SHERIFF]

I've been in LE for quite some time and officers were reasonable in thinking for the most part when I started. Nowadays, it seems more and more Alpha hotels are coming on the job with absolutely no sense at all.

WoW! 2 winners in a row. I agree with you 100%.

[sailsmen]

As happens in most organizations many Police Depts have become so focused on themselves and what they are doing they have lost sight that they are to serve the general public.

A perfect example is how Police Depts have changed their procedures as respects pulling you over yet I have never seen a PSA or mention of it on a DL test.

I am still not 100% sure from jurisdiction to jurisdiction what as expected of me. How could this possibly happen? Perhaps it is because the Police DEpt is solely focused on itself and not the public it serves.

An example the other day I noticed a plain CV w/ every police mod you could think of including the most unusual light bar on the dash. A block latter he pulls over a nother car. He is dressed in a camo jump suit w/ nothing that indicates he is a police officer.

There is no way I would have pulled over for this guy. I would have called 911and headed for the nearest police station.

Here in lies the problem. I have no way of knowing if traffic stops are being done by plain rappers dressed in camo jump suits in my area. Or what is the procedure if I am pulled over by a plain wrapper.

How difficult would it be to add what to expect during a traffic stop to the DL test or run some PSA?

[TiTo35]

Wasnt there an emergency going on??? WTF was going on with that cop? I am sure what ever it was could have waited until the matter at hand was handle...

:shake: @ that cop...

[G-Man]

Not to mention that people need to move their vehicles out of the roadway if they are able to do so as not to impede traffic. But I also see some officers that block the road for no appearent reason after an accident has cleared and every one has left the scene.

I do agree that regardless of what our positions / titles are, we as humans were given a brain (well, most of us anyway) that allows us to make logical decisions.

For example; I encountered a traffic jam one morning (I know. Hard to beleive). Eventually I finally got to the cause, a small car in the left lane that stalled. No accident. The driver was sitting in the expansive, grassy median, as a Tahoe, sat behind his vehicle, emergency lights lit, blocking the lane.

Here's that logic part. The car could have easily been pushed off of the road to the grassy median until a wrecker arrived. That takes care of public safety and frees up traffic.

Ask yourself what would you rather do, feel important, or make a diffrence? The answer speaks volumes.

[Egon Spengler]

There are good cops and good firefighters and then there are what I like to call "Power Trip Weenies" in both professions... These are the men who let their power go to their heads and are complete bone heads