Subwoofer options

[offroadkarter]

I'd like to see what everyone has (subwoofer wise) in their trunks, im pondering a setup.

Post up your pics! :D

[Lowndex]

I went to a local stereo shop I trust (a rare thing indeed). After trying numerous sub boxes on the shelves, from six different manufacturers, I decided to have one built. A ported, two speaker sub box should not cost more than $400.00 (speakers not included). This includes carper wrap. Mine was $350.00, which included speaker posts (rear), carpet wrap and speaker grills.

Stay away from tubes - they have poor resonance compared to enclosures.

Lastly, two 10" or 12" base speakers with a dedicated amp will do better than one giant speaker. The base will be 'tighter' when using two speakers versus one 12" or larger single speaker. You want the sound of a drum set kick drum; not some punk kid's rumbling rap rice mobile.

Make the builder use the carpet Ford sells to exactly match your trunk carpet.

Pick up a copy of Car Audio or surf the web and get some ideas on what is available. You will not find anything for the Marauder, Crown Victoria, etc.. These cars are not exactly the target audience of the car audio world.

[offroadkarter]

I went to a local stereo shop I trust (a rare thing indeed). After trying numerous sub boxes on the shelves, from six different manufacturers, I decided to have one built. A ported, two speaker sub box should not cost more than $400.00 (speakers not included). This includes carper wrap. Mine was $350.00, which included speaker posts (rear), carpet wrap and speaker grills.

Stay away from tubes - they have poor resonance compared to enclosures.

Lastly, two 10" or 12" base speakers with a dedicated amp will do better than one giant speaker. The base will be 'tighter' when using two speakers versus one 12" or larger single speaker. You want the sound of a drum set kick drum; not some punk kid's rumbling rap rice mobile.

Make the builder use the carpet Ford sells to exactly match your trunk carpet.

Pick up a copy of Car Audio or surf the web and get some ideas on what is available. You will not find anything for the Marauder, Crown Victoria, etc.. These cars are not exactly the target audience of the car audio world.


I will most likely be building the box with my friend, but for now that remains unknown.

I'd like to take everything out of the trunk and first lay down dynamat, and i was thinking either 3 10's or 2 12's off a single 1000w amp.

But this is probably where my imagination overtakes my ability to create, i was considering a plexi glass front with the Gods head on it, and some red neons inside.

Yep, its 2:02 am and im getting crazy again.

I'll have to muse over peoples photos later in the day.

[Aren Jay]

Talk to John and Magindat.

I'm disconnected right now, my Sub/amp is all buggy.

When I get my tune done, and then get my SACD Nav unit put in, and then new speakers I will have John ship that MTX mXT something box up.

[arejayesss]

Here is what I did. I think it is just right;)
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37985

[magindat]

I will most likely be building the box with my friend, but for now that remains unknown.

I'd like to take everything out of the trunk and first lay down dynamat, and i was thinking either 3 10's or 2 12's off a single 1000w amp.

But this is probably where my imagination overtakes my ability to create, i was considering a plexi glass front with the Gods head on it, and some red neons inside.

Yep, its 2:02 am and im getting crazy again.

I'll have to muse over peoples photos later in the day.

There plans for a 2x12's box in my gallery.

[ludwigvan968]

Lastly, two 10" or 12" base speakers with a dedicated amp will do better than one giant speaker. The base will be 'tighter' when using two speakers versus one 12" or larger single speaker. You want the sound of a drum set kick drum; not some punk kid's rumbling rap rice mobile.



Actually I run a single 15inch driver in a sealed 3.6 cubic foot plywood enclosure and the bass is very tight and not flabby. As you alluded to, it has a lot to do with your design and box construction.

But yeah, I did mine on the cheap, it was like 200 for the box and driver. I built it in my apartments patio, just hand tools.

click on the image for documentation:


http://jtlopez.dyndns.org/albums/album491/pics_from_the_week_054.sized.j pg (http://jtlopez.dyndns.org/gallery/album491?page=1)

[SILVERSURFER03]

pre built box w/2 cvr 12s have new plans to build off of (thank you ) .. starting construction sooooooooooooooooooooooooooon

[magindat]

pre built box w/2 cvr 12s have new plans to build off of (thank you ) .. starting construction sooooooooooooooooooooooooooon

Make a template and double-check clearance for YOUR trunk springs.... There are clearance differences MM to MM due to adjustments.

[Raudermaster]

In my old car I had the same sub, except I had two and decided to only put in one in a bandpass box in the MM since it's plenty loud and it sounds excellent. It's powered by a Kenwood eXcelon KAC-X811D .
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/5/6/2/9/S4021758.JPG

[magindat]

:puke:

Sorry, Jarod... I don't use up trunk space......

BTW, that is not a band-pass box. That is a single-reflex ported box.

[Raudermaster]

Okay smarty pants. :-p. I know, I didn't want to take up my trunk space. What should I do?

[Pops]

Move the amp to the back of the seat and have Rich build you a box that fits where the amp was at.

[magindat]

Move the amp to the back of the seat and have Rich build you a box that fits where the amp was at.

Hey I was gonna say that!

It's a 12?

I could build a box for that. Would be smaller. Less boomy. More accurate. Higher power-handling. Amp could mount on the side of the box. I need all the depth I can get!!!

[Raudermaster]

How would I mount the amp on the back of the seat? Wouldn't it hit against the back of the gas tank metal? You could actually build a box for that small of an area?? Also, how the hell would I get it to stay in place?

[magindat]

How would I mount the amp on the back of the seat?
On an iso-board. but don't. If I built you a box, it would mount to the box.[/quote]

Wouldn't it hit against the back of the gas tank metal? No, on an iso board and no, if mounted to the box.

You could actually build a box for that small of an area?? Yes, depending on the woofer's specs. I do it all the time. How do you think I got 4x10's on the shelf?! It's not easy and the box gets complicated to build.

Also, how the hell would I get it to stay in place?Vee haff our vays....

[Raudermaster]

Excellent, do it up Rich! Do you want me to measure, or would you rather go to Kicker's site and look at the CVR 12"

[magindat]

Excellent, do it up Rich! Do you want me to measure, or would you rather go to Kicker's site and look at the CVR 12"

You need to call me first. But I can do it. I'll look up the woofer on Kicker's site.

[Raudermaster]

I'm gonna call your cell now.

[Lowndex]

The chose a JL audio subwoofer box design:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=242 (http://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=242)
Square-Back, Dual-Woofer Models: HO210G-W3v3: Dual 10W3v3, ported enclosure, 1000W, 4 ohm

See the attached picture. By the way, I removed my spare tire! I needed the room for my two JL amplifiers and subwoofer enclosure.

[magindat]

You need to call me first. But I can do it. I'll look up the woofer on Kicker's site.


I'm gonna call your cell now.

I figured out a box for ya last night, Jarod. 1.2 Cu Ft. Keep the spare. Fits where stock woofer was. Interested?

[Raudermaster]

Oh hell yes. Would it be "floating" as in where the stock sub is, or below it like planned?

[magindat]

Oh hell yes. Would it be "floating" as in where the stock sub is, or below it like planned?

Below. Like the 10 I do, but a little different to accommodate the 12. Want cone-out or magnet out?

You'll have to do something different with the trunk light since the box covers it. Wires are red and black - totally obvious. You can do anything like neons, LED's or just a replacement incandescent somewhere.

Gimme a call.

[High-C]

Rich, It may be even easier to do a few at a time... I may be interested as well... I'll PM you on Friday as I'll be away from .net until then. - C

[offroadkarter]

ah your tempting me on a box to, any pictures of what it looks like? I'd like to keep my spare if possible but i dont want to sacrifice losing good bass. Although im sure i wont.

Interest peaked......

[shagdrum]

Lastly, two 10" or 12" base speakers with a dedicated amp will do better than one giant speaker.

not neccessarily. It depends on the sub (or subs) used, the amp, and the type of enclosure used.



The base will be 'tighter' when using two speakers versus one 12" or larger single speaker. You want the sound of a drum set kick drum; not some punk kid's rumbling rap rice mobile.


Not true. Two subs doesn't equal "tighter" then a single sub, just more potential volume; more noise. In fact, it can overpower, making for bad sound quality. If you get a cheap sub, and the wrong type of enclosure, then you will get sloppy bass, regardless of number subs used. Invest in a good quality sub and a sealed enclosure with adequate power to the sub if you want a good SQ setup. If you just want noise, use any sub or subs, throw lots of power at them, and use a ported enclosure, but don't expect quality sound. It really all depends on what you are goin for, more volume, or better quality sound. They are NOT the same thing, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what he is talkin about.

As to "tight" bass/reproducing a bass drum. A subwoofer CANNOT reproduce the sound of a bass drum (trust me on this, I am a formally trained drummer). A sub merely reproduces the low end sounds of the bass drum AND bass guitar (and whatever other instruments are producing sound at that low frequency). The "tight" bass, comes from a combination of the speakers producing midrange AND the speakers (subs) producing the lower frequency (bass) signals. The part of the sound that creates the impression of a "tight" or "punchy" bass drum comes from the speakers producing the midrange/midbass signal, NOT the subwoofer.

[magindat]

Ok, I see I got some setting the record straight to do here....

1) ORC is right, but he doesn't know why. Sound pressure is area x excursion. Period. That's all there is. Just like motor displacement. So for a given area (say a 15" woofer) you have that area times the speaker's excursion. Altenately, 2 - 12's is a little bigger and 2-10's is a little smaller than one 15. Givent eh same brand speaker and similar excursion, we have nearly the same displacement. However, we now have 2 motors doing the work rather than 1. We have also doubled the power handling (again assuming same brand speaker and similar motor structures).

2) A subwoofer CAN and DOES reproduce kick drum. By definition a 'sub'woofer is designed to play below 100hz. A kick drum is 60hz. So a sub WILL and does play kick drum. It's part of the reason we have subs.
Side note: when we get up into tom's or bongos, the mid woofer handles the impact while the sub handles the lower harmonics. Actually, what you hear in the midbass speaker is the UPPER harmonic from the kick drum and not the kickdrum itself.

3) Ports vs sealed. This has NOTHING to do with the inherent design of the enclosure. It has to do with the fact that you are putting one enclosure (box) into another enclosure (trunk) into another enclosure (car). It takes experience and CAD to help decide which enclosure is best for a given woofer in a given car. One must also add a dash of safety margin. What it boils down to is that anyone can throw a box in a car, but not anyone can design a box to suit a given woofer for a given car and have it perform.
I have had a bandpass in my car with a single 8 that walked the dog on a car with 2-15's. My single 8 BP with 500W walked all over another Marauder with 2-10's and 1KW!

4) "Tight" That word is a characteristic of box design that is scientifically referred to as system Q. The midrange speakers have nothing to do with it. An optimal box in a free space will have a .7 Q. This is EASILY designed for. When we placed said 'perfect' box in another box (trunk), we have created a bandpass box. When we then consider the cab of the car, we change the SYSTEM Q again. The box, the woofer and the car make the Q, not just the box.

5) On optimal car system will have a strong midbass driver, a well designed sub enclosure, a soft dome tweeter for leather interior or a hard dome for cloth interior. This will be tuned to a lower frequency curve in the 1.5K-3.5K range, a bit higher toward 12.5k a bump at 35-55 (depending on the car) and a 6db roll-off below 40. Why? these are the adjustments that must be made IN A CAR to deal with ambient noise, road noise, internal sound reflections in the cabin, etc.

6) Even relatively inexpensive components can be well installed and well tuned to achieve quite nice results. As a matter of fact Memphis Car Audio sponsored me to prove it!! The only sacrifice (generally) with lesser expensive equipment is longevity due to cheaper manufacturing and raw materials.

The folks on this site have an opportunity to discuss these things and learn about them for free. They also have access to expertly designed and PROVEN enclosures to match their Marauder in design, sound quality, space savings, and longevity.

[shagdrum]

However, we now have 2 motors doing the work rather than 1. We have also doubled the power handling (again assuming same brand speaker and similar motor structures).


Again, this only equals more volume capability. More power handling capability equals more potential volume, not better sound quality.


2) A subwoofer CAN and DOES reproduce kick drum. By definition a 'sub'woofer is designed to play below 100hz. A kick drum is 60hz. So a sub WILL and does play kick drum. It's part of the reason we have subs.

Not exactly. The base drum creates noise in the subwoofer range and the midbass-midrange, so the subwoofer reproduces part of the bass drum sound. The tone of the bass drum is in the subwoofer range (depending on the size of the bass drum), but the actual impact, the "slap" in the bass is created when the beater actually hits the head. That noise is in the midrange/midbass, and that noise is what gives the impression of "tight" and "punchy", or "wet" bass drum sound which is typical in most music where a drum set is used (except, maybe jazz, or its derivatives).

You can't say that a kick drum is "60hz" as that is all dependant on the size of the bass drum as well as the heads used and the tuning of the drum. Outside of tympani, no drum is tuned to a specific note, or frequency. In fact, drums give off multiple frequencies in certian ranges when they are struck. If two heads are used (which is typical), then each head can be tuned to a different frequency to get a distinct sound which further influences the frequency(s) that the bass drum reproduces, as well as how the drum is played (technique, what type of beater is used) not to mention how the drum is recorded.

Vinnie Paul (drummer from Pantera, Hell Yeah, etc..) is a great example. He puts a small kevlar pad (called a falam pad) on the drum head where the beater hits the head. What is unique with him is that he also sandwich's a quarter in between the kevlar pad and the drum head where the beater hits them. This gives a very distinct, sharp, wet midrange sound which makes bass drum very distinct and punchy. This is in addition to the tone generated when the drum is struck which is in the subwoofer range.


when we get up into tom's or bongos, the mid woofer handles the impact while the sub handles the lower harmonics.

for the most part, but this is, again, dependant on a number of factors, the biggest of which is drum size. An 18 inch floor tom (which I have in my setup) is gonna produce noise equally in both the midrange and midbass/bass range. My my 12 inch tom is gonna be midrange. I can tune either one in a way that the tone either drops or raises over the course of the sustain, depending on weather the bottom head is tuned lower or higher then the top head.


Actually, what you hear in the midbass speaker is the UPPER harmonic from the kick drum and not the kickdrum itself

You can't hear a sound generated by the kick drum that isn't generated by the kick drum?! The "upper harmonic" is part of the kick drum itself and the sound it generates. You can't separate the impact (which is part of the initial "attack" of the sound) from the sustain. You don't get to pick and choose what sounds you attribute to the kick drum and what sounds you don't. A bass drum is what it is.


Ports vs sealed. This has NOTHING to do with the inherent design of the enclosure.

?? This statement confuses me, could you clarify? aren't ported and sealed two different box designs all together?


It has to do with the fact that you are putting one enclosure (box) into another enclosure (trunk) into another enclosure (car).


Yes, but sealed boxes are more consistently good (if not great) SQ designs. SQ competition cars usually use these. SPL cars use ported. Ported reproduce a certian frequency at a huge volume (depending on the frequency tuned to), but drop off dramatically for other frequencies in both volume and SQ. Ported boxes are great for SPL, but sealed are a better choice for SQ as they are more consistent over a larger frequency range. That isn't to say that other types of box designs (including ported) can't be made to sound real good, but on the SQ/SPL spectrum, you have sealed boxes on one end, and ported on the other.



I have had a bandpass in my car with a single 8 that walked the dog on a car with 2-15's. My single 8 BP with 500W walked all over another Marauder with 2-10's and 1KW!


Yes, but did it sound good? That would be my question. I could care less about SPL. That is easy and worthless, a waste of money, IMO. SQ is harder but much more rewarding (not to mention refined), again IMO.




"Tight" That word is a characteristic of box design that is scientifically referred to as system Q. The midrange speakers have nothing to do with it. An optimal box in a free space will have a .7 Q. This is EASILY designed for. When we placed said 'perfect' box in another box (trunk), we have created a bandpass box. When we then consider the cab of the car, we change the SYSTEM Q again. The box, the woofer and the car make the Q, not just the box.


The phrase "tight" has been used by jazz drummers and musicians since before WWII to describe certian sounds, usually in the bass range, specifically bass drums. I imagine that the car audio community (and the audio community in general) took the term from that. the "Q" thing is the measureable factor that seems to best determine tightness in the speaker. In other words, the term "tight" as a discriptive of a subwoofers characteristic came before the Q-factor was attached to it.


Even relatively inexpensive components can be well installed and well tuned to achieve quite nice results. As a matter of fact Memphis Car Audio sponsored me to prove it!! The only sacrifice (generally) with lesser expensive equipment is longevity due to cheaper manufacturing and raw materials.

Yeah, cheap equipment can be made to sound good due to the install. But higher end equipement will sound better with the same install. No Memphis component will ever compete with Morel (Isreal), Genesis, and speakers at that level.

[arejayesss]

:popcorn::popcorn:

ahhh, this is what I love most about this forum

[magindat]

Wow! This is awesome!!! I have spent my time in my car audio hobby as a faithful reproducer of sound. This discussion is TERRIFIC and I appreciate it! It is also way more then ORC had expected.

Rather than touch on each point, I will try to summarize, because there are about a million tangents we could go off on!

From an engineering standpoint, I am interested in the actual frequency of the sound being produced. This is a starting point for tuning in the difficult audio environment of a car. As such, I generalize the average kick-drum at 60 and go from there. This is what is meant when an installer asks "what kind of music do you listen to?" As a rule, i try to design for a system that will satisfactorily play most kinds of music. This means not only accounting for pure frequencies as created by electronic devices but also for harmonics. It seems your position is that harmonics are part an parcel of the sound played by the musician. I agree, however, to technically design a system, I need a real starting point frequency. The musical nuances (like the quarter thing) are my reward for a system well designed.

The notion of two motors doing the work not only has to do with making more noise, it also has to do with having more control. When a woofer is moved by the magnetic filed, it's suspension wants to bring it back. This is the mechanical Q of the speaker itself. The speaker suspension is a spring with no shock absorber. As such, it needs to be stopped. The motor via the amp signal will help stop it as will the air behind the cone. Therefore more motors on smaller masses IS preferred over larger woofers with fewer motors. Not only is the volume increased, but also the cone accuracy is increased.

The ported vs sealed thing - in a car - has less to do with the inherent properties of a ported or sealed enclosure in the wide open and more to do with the performance of that enclosure inside another enclosure (the car). I do hope that clarifies my statement.

Sealed boxes are more consistently good because they are easy. There's less to screw up. The walls of the box are stronger due to a smaller size and fewer holes and therefore the box has less chance of coloring the sound with it's own resonance. Furthermore, one again must consider the car itself as a box. Few understand the notion or have experience with the fact that the whole system - car and all - is really a huge bandpass box. Ported boxes do reach maximum efficiency at a given frequency and do lose control of the woofer below that frequency. Boxes are made with consideration of the woofer itself, the box size and the car. To generalize ports for spl and sealed for q is as fair as me generalizing 60hz for a kick drum.

Ahhh, the debate over sound good vs output!!! My favorite. Many car audio folks define sound good as high output. I like to provide both. Sound good at reasonable volume and massive output, though perhaps quality compromised, when called upon. These two actually do live happily together in car audio for several reasons. First, to get big output, you need big power. Big power does as much to push the woofer to excursion as it does to bring it back. This is known as the amp's damping factor. When an amp is being used far below it's headroom, it has huge damping factor. Therefore it stops the woofer well which means good, accurate bass response. Secondly, at lower, listen-able volumes, the speaker is being moved less. This means less tenancy to free-spring oscillate and less mass to throw out and stop - both contribute to quality sound and faithful reproduction. Then as the volume increases, we sacrifice these advantages for output. We can now accommodate both high output and good sound from the same system.

It appears 'tight' has different yet similar meanings to artists as opposed to sound engineers. Yes, tight or loose refers to Q, but don't forget, we have a woofer Q, a box Q, and a system Q (box in the car). A tight box CAN sound like mud in a huge trunk, for example, because now we have a bandpass with a HUGE front chamber! To get the overall (car included) system Q right, we MUST consider the car. Of course, the idea of 'tight' was found in music origination before music reproduction!!!!

You are 100% right that no car audio equipment will EVER come close to a Morel (and if you've ever heard a Morel system, consider yourself a lucky person). The car environment is compromised from jump street. We have heat and temperature extremes to deal with, humidity changes and extremes, variable voltage, flexing panels, sound absorbtive/reflective interior, weird box configurations (hatch=folded horn, sedan=bandpass, SUV approaches transmission line, etc), ambient engine and road noise, crappy speaker placement - the list goes on forever. As such, car audio manufacturers could never put out a Morel - level speaker. It wouldn't last a week in a car - especially in South Florida!

A true car audiophile attempts to reproduce what you, the musician, have given us as faithfully as possible. In doing so we must overcome a ton of obstacles and in the process we add our own salt and pepper to taste.

Thank you for taking the time for this discussion!!!! It's always nice when we can discuss and learn from each other on this forum without flamage!!!

[magindat]

I'd just like to add.

Re-production is as much an art as the production itself.

:beer:

[Raudermaster]

Rich can I call you a bit later on today?

[magindat]

Rich can I call you a bit later on today?

Anytime, Jarod.

[shagdrum]

From an engineering standpoint, I am interested in the actual frequency of the sound being produced. This is a starting point for tuning in the difficult audio environment of a car. As such, I generalize the average kick-drum at 60 and go from there.


Yeah, and considering that most Rock/ R&B and hip music uses bass drums that about the same size (22 inch) that 60hz is a pretty good estimate, as most of the sound is probably around that. You start getting into, say Jazz, an 18 inch bass drum (or sometimes a 20 inch) is common. But, as I said the nature of drums is that they are not tuned to any single note or frequency (besides tymapani). You tune the drum by tapping and listening to the drum head near each lug while you tighten or loosen it to get the lugs as close in sound (and thus in tension) to each other as possible. Basically, you are narrowing the range that the bass drum produces noise in. Since in car audio, it is dependant on specific frequencies, that is (at least in part) why installing and tuning car audio is such an art (as you point out), because it can't be specific in drum heavy music (which is typical today) and needs to account for variables like that.






The notion of two motors doing the work not only has to do with making more noise, it also has to do with having more control. When a woofer is moved by the magnetic filed, it's suspension wants to bring it back. This is the mechanical Q of the speaker itself. The speaker suspension is a spring with no shock absorber. As such, it needs to be stopped. The motor via the amp signal will help stop it as will the air behind the cone. Therefore more motors on smaller masses IS preferred over larger woofers with fewer motors. Not only is the volume increased, but also the cone accuracy is increased.


Ok, that makes more sense. When two subs are working at a given power level, the chance that they would hit (or get close) to their excusion limits and start distorting is reduced and the potential for distortion is reduced, thus increasing potential sound quality. But would this have any effect on SQ at normal volumes where a single sub wouldn't be near reaching its limits and starting to distort.

but, in practice, for the customer, two (or more) subs means more power can, and usually will be thrown at the speakers, thus negating any potential SQ benefit, right?

so the net benefit is really more SPL with less of a trade off in distortion to get that SPL.

That said, quality components seem to be able to get around that trade off, at least to a degree. I have an Eclipse 12" SW8122 DVC. That single sub pounds like there is no tomorrow (it overpowered the system I had in a beater Saturn I used to have, which had a separate 400 watt old clarion amp for the midrange and highs), and even in a sealed box, that sub could beat quite a bit out there on the road, including systems with bigger, and more subs.



The ported vs sealed thing - in a car - has less to do with the inherent properties of a ported or sealed enclosure in the wide open and more to do with the performance of that enclosure inside another enclosure (the car). I do hope that clarifies my statement.


Yeah, that makes sense. Basically, the sub system (box and sub) doesn't perform in a vaccum; it is in a vehicle. I have seen subs in a sealed box sound great in the trunk of a car, but take that sub and box out, and but them in a hatchback, or SUV, and they sound terrible. It depends on where the resonance chamber (trunk in a sedan, cab in a truck /SUV) is in relation to the driver and how those two are (or are not) separated.



Many car audio folks define sound good as high output. I like to provide both.


Yeah, I can appriciate that. Still it seems that while that trade off can be put off to a point (depending on components used, installation and tuning), that trade off does eventually come into play. Just look at the extreme, a SPL competition vehicle is not gonna win any SQ competitions and vice versa. New and/or quality equipement and install techniques can raise the point that trade off comes into effect so as to not be an issue to the average customer.




A true car audiophile attempts to reproduce what you, the musician, have given us as faithfully as possible. In doing so we must overcome a ton of obstacles and in the process we add our own salt and pepper to taste.


I personally perfer a system that "gets out of the way of the music", if that makes sense. My standard for speakers is a pair of Magnapans I have. I have yet to hear any speaker that reproduces sound so well and accurately (though they do lack in the subwoofer range). Unfortunately, those things are way to big to fit in a car. Still, my ideal system would sound as if I had a set of those in the car. Basically, reproduce the music signal as accurately as possible. I would think that, in theory, if you have the right components, install and tuning, you would never need to adjust anything to reproduce the music accurately (as the music was originally recorded and mixed). To start adjusting the EQ after this point is to start imposing your own personal perferences as to what the music should sound like, which comes across as kind arrogant to me. That EQ setting should work for any type of music (assuming the same level of quality of recording), and not need adjustment when there is a change in the type of music. Basically, the ultimate "set it and forget it" system.

I always thought the best ear to tune in a system would be a sound engineer who mixed the recording being used to tune said system. The musicians can get the instruments how they want, and their ear is trained to do that, and they know what they want their instruments to sound like in the recording, but the sound engineer is the one who knows how to put all those different instruments together and get the sound out of each instrument that the musicians want and a good balance in the sound. The sound engineers ear is trained to fine tune and tweek the sound inputs to get the final recording, and he knows better then anyone (even the musicians) what that recording should sound like.




Thank you for taking the time for this discussion!!!! It's always nice when we can discuss and learn from each other on this forum without flamage!!!


NP. This is fun.

Question:
I currently own a Lincoln Mark VIII (my first car was an '85 Grand Marquis, then a '92 Town Car). I'm looking to get a Marauder in the next year (hopefully) and am trying to figure out what subs of mine I could use. I would most likely install the sub(s) on the shelf in the trunk right above the gas tank. I have that big dog Eclipse 12" 8122 DVC, and I also have two old kicker solobaric s10d 10" subs (old school, round, SQ ones). I would prefer to put the Eclipse up there, but my question is, what is the measurement from the bottom of that shelf to the top? How much space (height wise) do I have to work with? Could a 12" sub in a sealed box fit there, or only 10" subs, as I have seen in a few cars?

Thanks again...

[magindat]

"because it can't be specific in drum heavy music (which is typical today) and needs to account for variables like that."
This is why most sub amps today come with a sub level control. Listening to +44 is LOT different than listening to Erasure, then Yanni, then Celine, then AC/DC!

"When two subs are working at a given power level, the chance that they would hit (or get close) to their excursion limits and start distorting is reduced and the potential for distortion is reduced, thus increasing potential sound quality."
That's not exactly what I said. There are two motors compared to one. Motors work to PUSH and PULL, in this case. With the same given mass, two motors will control better than one. 4-10's are more controllable as a mass than 1-18, but 4-10's will provide the low frequency response of 1-18 AND provide the tight punch of, well, a 10 and in 1/2 the air-space.

"But would this have any effect on SQ at normal volumes where a single sub wouldn't be near reaching its limits and starting to distort."
Sure it would. You still have to control that mass. That mass is controlled by the motor and the air space. More motors still equals more power to START AND STOP the mass.

"so the net benefit is really more SPL with less of a trade off in distortion to get that SPL."
That statement is more accurate. More POTENTIAL SPL with less distortion, but still the benefit greater control at lower volumes.

"That said, quality components seem to be able to get around that trade off, at least to a degree. I have an Eclipse 12" SW8122 DVC. That single sub pounds like there is no tomorrow (it overpowered the system I had in a beater Saturn I used to have, which had a separate 400 watt old clarion amp for the midrange and highs), and even in a sealed box, that sub could beat quite a bit out there on the road, including systems with bigger, and more subs."
** Bet the car was a hatch back!!! **
Somewhat. Quality does not necessarily mean more expensive, though. While Eclipse is well-engineered, it's not manufactured at the volumes of say Pioneer or MTX. Both of which are incredibly well engineered and use high quality materials. The savings is in mass production. That particular Eclipse model has a very high excursion and was designed in the days of 'excursion wars' ala Audiobahn and Earthquake. Yes, it pounds. But there are speakers out there that are more affordable, as or more faithful, and will pound as hard or harder. The point, for me, is to bring the enjoyment of well reproduced music to all, not just those who can 'afford it'.

"Basically, the sub system (box and sub) doesn't perform in a vaccum; it is in a vehicle. I have seen subs in a sealed box sound great in the trunk of a car, but take that sub and box out, and but them in a hatchback, or SUV, and they sound terrible. It depends on where the resonance chamber (trunk in a sedan, cab in a truck /SUV) is in relation to the driver and how those two are (or are not) separated."
That is very true. Infact, most car audio systems will perform quite differently with doors open, trunk open, or window down. This is because you have now 'ported' the 'enclosure'.
Actually the driver position is the smallest factor, unless he or she is trying to drive from underneath the dash (highest spl location) or on the back-seat floor (lowest spl location)!

"Still it seems that while that trade off can be put off to a point (depending on components used, installation and tuning), that trade off does eventually come into play. Just look at the extreme, a SPL competition vehicle is not gonna win any SQ competitions and vice versa. New and/or quality equipement and install techniques can raise the point that trade off comes into effect so as to not be an issue to the average customer."
While I agree with this, comparing an SPL competition vehicle with an average customer is like comparing a top Fuel Dragster to an everyday Ford Fusion! Just like we Marauderer's with our hi-po engines and goodies, we can only go so far (and some have gone plenty far) before it's a full-fledged race car.

"I personally perfer a system that "gets out of the way of the music", if that makes sense."
I couldn't agree more with that statement. The Marauder, again, is a perfect example. We wanna go fast, but we don't wanna sacrifice luxury or drivability to achieve it.

"My standard for speakers is a pair of Magnapans I have. I have yet to hear any speaker that reproduces sound so well and accurately (though they do lack in the subwoofer range). Unfortunately, those things are way to big to fit in a car."
You gotta stop comparing studio stuff to car stuff. There's just no comparison. Even if you placed those monitors in your car, they'd sound like CRAPOLA. They are made for a room-size space, not the sound reflected and small interior of a car.

"Still, my ideal system would sound as if I had a set of those in the car."
That's fair and a good mark to aspire toward.

"Basically, reproduce the music signal as accurately as possible. I would think that, in theory, if you have the right components, install and tuning, you would never need to adjust anything to reproduce the music accurately (as the music was originally recorded and mixed). To start adjusting the EQ after this point is to start imposing your own personal perferences as to what the music should sound like, which comes across as kind arrogant to me. That EQ setting should work for any type of music (assuming the same level of quality of recording), and not need adjustment when there is a change in the type of music. Basically, the ultimate "set it and forget it" system."
This is a big one, and if you understand nothing else of this discussion, try to absorb this. In a car you NEED an EQ just to get to status quo as compared to a good monitor in a studio. The interior of a car reflects and absorbs all manner of frequencies off of or into all manner of surfaces. Regardless of the best components, the best amps and the best source, these frequencies WILL BE reflected and absorbed. It's just plain physics. There are even separate competition categories for this. RTA seeks that perfect objective frequency response perfection. While Sound Q uses adjustments to the EQ with that 'salt and pepper' to reproduce the selection to the best of the system's ability SUBJECTIVELY. There is no arrogance in that. It is actually a true attempt to faithfully reproduce the selection in the most difficult audio environment possible.

"I always thought the best ear to tune in a system would be a sound engineer who mixed the recording being used to tune said system."
Not necessarily, as his own judgment is clouded by the nuances of his own monitors and sound room.

"The musicians can get the instruments how they want, and their ear is trained to do that, and they know what they want their instruments to sound like in the recording, but the sound engineer is the one who knows how to put all those different instruments together and get the sound out of each instrument that the musicians want and a good balance in the sound. The sound engineers ear is trained to fine tune and tweek the sound inputs to get the final recording, and he knows better then anyone (even the musicians) what that recording should sound like."
Agreed, but he is mixing to a flat environment - that being the blank media. A car audio engineer is mixing to a dynamic environment with again, lots of reflections and absorptions. Also, when you REALLY get into competition, temperature and humidity play a role in reproduction. We are moving air. When the characteristics of the air change, so our adjustments must change to accommodate. The studio engineer wouldn't know where to start (unless he was a car audio hobbyist as well).

"Question:
I'm looking to get a Marauder in the next year (hopefully) and am trying to figure out what subs of mine I could use. I would most likely install the sub(s) on the shelf in the trunk. I have that Eclipse 12" 8122 DVC, and I also have two old kicker solobaric s10d 10" subs (round). I would prefer to put the Eclipse up there, but my question is, what is the measurement from the bottom of that shelf to the top? Could a 12" sub in a sealed box fit there, or only 10" subs, as I have seen in a few cars?"

There are a number of reasons the single 10 has been successful in Marauders. 1) it fits. 2) it looks good 3) it does a very nice job of compressing the trunk air and passing that pressure through the passive radiator (back seat) 4) The output level is satisfactory to a wide range of drivers 5) it keeps the spare 6) it does not hog up the trunk.

Virtually any size driver can be made to fit on the shelf with some creativity. I have done them all from 8 through 15.

The expensiveness of the driver doesn't really matter in our trunk. We need durable. In the case of our trunk we don't hear the actual driver. It is merely an air-piston. We hear it's sound pressure passed in to the cab through a passive radiator.

At the end of the day, this is my art. Name the sub or subs and I can make 'em fit and sound good. I've been in the car audio hobby, competition, and occasionally business for over 20 years now. It's my first love when it comes to cars and it's how I got into cars to begin with. I have all this time, all this research, all this theory, and all these systems' worth of knowledge and how-to stuck in my head.

While I'm happy to help and I enjoy the conversations on theory and practice. I'll not give away the secrets it's taken me years to learn.

You have 11" to work with. I can do 2-15's, 2-18's, 8-10's, 4-12's in that space. I HAVE done 1-15, 4-10's, 1-10, 2-12's up there.

[magindat]

That's the first time I ever typed out a post that exceed the character limit!

Here's the last statement:

It is, to me, a very cool thing when musicians and engineers can get together to reach the listener. The musician wants the best for his or her music. They want it to reach the listener in it's intended form. We, the engineers, get to please both the musician AND the listener when we get it right!!!

[shagdrum]

That's not exactly what I said. There are two motors compared to one. Motors work to PUSH and PULL, in this case. With the same given mass, two motors will control better than one. 4-10's are more controllable as a mass than 1-18, but 4-10's will provide the low frequency response of 1-18 AND provide the tight punch of, well, a 10 and in 1/2 the air-space.


Ok, still tryin to get this I guess. we are talking about using a larger number of smaller subs as opposed to a fewer number of bigger ones. I know that the larger the sub, the more it tends to distort. So if we took four 10's we would have the surface area of a 15" or 18" sub (or there abouts) but with less distortion because of the size of the cones, which are easier to control because of their relatively small size, correct?

which leads into this statement...




You still have to control that mass. That mass is controlled by the motor and the air space. More motors still equals more power to START AND STOP the mass.


that mass is smaller (individual cone) and doesn't flex like a larger sub would, but add those smaller cones together and they can move as much air as a larger cone can, yet without the distortion. Kinda the best of both worlds.


** Bet the car was a hatch back!!! **

Actually, it was an SL2; a sedan.



Quality does not necessarily mean more expensive, though. While Eclipse is well-engineered, it's not manufactured at the volumes of say Pioneer or MTX. Both of which are incredibly well engineered and use high quality materials. The savings is in mass production. That particular Eclipse model has a very high excursion and was designed in the days of 'excursion wars' ala Audiobahn and Earthquake. Yes, it pounds. But there are speakers out there that are more affordable, as or more faithful, and will pound as hard or harder. The point, for me, is to bring the enjoyment of well reproduced music to all, not just those who can 'afford it'.


Well, I got that sub for $100 brand new, doubt the quality of that sub comes much cheaper then that. :D I was workin (for store credit) for a guy who ran a car audio shop. Eclipse was about the best SQ brand he had at the time (at least of the equipment on hand). I also got an XA4000 and an XA1000. Not too impressed with the 1000, but the 4000 sounds great, just very big. From what I have found on that sub, it was made for eclipse by TC Sounds (now Audiopulse). In fact, their epic line of subs is the exact same thing.

Back to the more subs thing...
More subs don't increase the frequency range, correct? If the cutoff for a 10" sub is at say 30hz, goin with 2,3 or 4 of that same sub (instead of one) isn't gonna drop the low frequency to 20hz.






You gotta stop comparing studio stuff to car stuff. There's just no comparison. Even if you placed those monitors in your car, they'd sound like CRAPOLA. They are made for a room-size space, not the sound reflected and small interior of a car.


Oh, the maggies are not studio, they are home audio equipment. Amazing speakers; planar type. Huge, and couldn't fit in the car, unless it had a very large trunk.

here is a link to the website, check 'em out...

http://www.magnepan.com/




This is a big one, and if you understand nothing else of this discussion, try to absorb this. In a car you NEED an EQ just to get to status quo as compared to a good monitor in a studio. The interior of a car reflects and absorbs all manner of frequencies off of or into all manner of surfaces. Regardless of the best components, the best amps and the best source, these frequencies WILL BE reflected and absorbed. It's just plain physics. There are even separate competition categories for this. RTA seeks that perfect objective frequency response perfection. While Sound Q uses adjustments to the EQ with that 'salt and pepper' to reproduce the selection to the best of the system's ability SUBJECTIVELY. There is no arrogance in that. It is actually a true attempt to faithfully reproduce the selection in the most difficult audio environment possible.



Yeah, I understand all the need for eq to account for the odd enviroment of a car and less then ideal speaker placement. I am talkin after that has been set. Basically, you have your baseline tune for the eq. I would think, that after that point you shouldn't need to keep tweekin the eq (except to improve that baseline). I am talking about those people who have to adjust the eq on every song and every recording that pops up. People who like to tweek constantly. It seems uneccessary (if the eq is set properly) and sometimes arrogant, in that they are trying to take the recording and make it sound as they want it, not as it was intended to sound.




Not necessarily, as his own judgment is clouded by the nuances of his own monitors and sound room.


Yeah, but he was there when the music was recorded, and mixed it along with the band. When it is set in that recording, that is how the musicians want it to sound, then the recording is shipped out for mass production. What a CD is reproducing is that sound. Getting that sound as close to the original recording is the goal, and his are the ears best trained at what that original recording sounds like.




Agreed, but he is mixing to a flat environment - that being the blank media. A car audio engineer is mixing to a dynamic environment with again, lots of reflections and absorptions. Also, when you REALLY get into competition, temperature and humidity play a role in reproduction. We are moving air. When the characteristics of the air change, so our adjustments must change to accommodate. The studio engineer wouldn't know where to start (unless he was a car audio hobbyist as well).


That is a good point. That is why he couldn't do the tuning, but his ears would be better for the tuner to use as reference on that specific recording, I would think.





Virtually any size driver can be made to fit on the shelf with some creativity. I have done them all from 8 through 15.

You have 11" to work with. I can do 2-15's, 2-18's, 8-10's, 4-12's in that space. I HAVE done 1-15, 4-10's, 1-10, 2-12's up there.


Yeah, I am not lookin to get too creative. Don't wanna tilt the sub to make it fit, and wanna keep the spare up there. I will probably go with a ten. I like the 10" MTX sub install on your car. Simple, yet tasteful and functional. that is what I am looking for. I have seen (and been involved in) projects that get too ambitious and never get done, or get halfway done and look terrible. Not gonna do that. keepin it simple.

Thanks again...

[ctrlraven]

The ghetto temp setup.
45-60 mins
$19.95 for a build it yourself pre-fabbed sealed box (Wal-Mart)
$000.00 for the sub, used a el-cheapo old sub thats about 10 yrs old (200watts max)
Removed the factory sub
Remounted the factory amp
Hook up wires
Ta Da bass.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/ctrlraven/marauder/DSCF0798Small.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/ctrlraven/marauder/DSCF0803Small.jpg

It's enough for me even though I am used to all out systems but this will do until I am finished with performance mods. It's enough to feel the bass vibration in my back. Winter time its real nice, got my heated and massaging seats lol.

[magindat]

"Ok, still tryin to get this I guess. we are talking about using a larger number of smaller subs as opposed to a fewer number of bigger ones. I know that the larger the sub, the more it tends to distort. So if we took four 10's we would have the surface area of a 15" or 18" sub (or there abouts) but with less distortion because of the size of the cones, which are easier to control because of their relatively small size, correct?"
It's not about size. it's about MASS. It's the weight of the cone and the corresponding weight of the air mass we are moving. Air has mass and springs back when compressed, too.

"that mass is smaller (individual cone) and doesn't flex like a larger sub would, but add those smaller cones together and they can move as much air as a larger cone can, yet without the distortion. Kinda the best of both worlds."
Larger subs in todays market don't flex like the old days. Material technology has beat the dreaded flex. So, the cone flex notion is void. But, yes, you have it. More motors moving same mass = greater efficiency.

"Actually, it was an SL2; a sedan."
Interesting.

"Back to the more subs thing...
More subs don't increase the frequency range, correct? If the cutoff for the speaker is at say 30hz, with 2,3 or 4 isn't gonna drop the low frequency to 20hz."
The subs play what the signal tells them to. Show me a sub that 'cut's off' at 30 and I'll sell you some high and dry property in South-Central Florida! Most subs roll of at 6db at around 2K (major generalization). This is due to the impedance (Le) of the voice coil itself creating a 6db low pass crossover by it's mere presence in the system. However, there is a point for every sub at which the SUB frequencies are muddied up by the mid-bass frequencies. This is why we use different size speakers in a SYSTEM. A sub is not good at mid bass same as a tweeter can't play mids, same as mids can't play sub (they can, just not loud - I did 64 6.5's in an old land cruiser way back and HOLY CRAP - the shop owner did it just to prove the point to his big-headed lead installer!!).
The resonance of the enclosure and equalization can enhance the performance of a SYSTEM at a given frequency. For example, I had a competition system with 4-10' s in a Civic 4dr. I built the box into the car and sound-deadened the car to a ridiculous level. Now, the actual car IS the box. It's lot harder for a woofer to resonate a 3500lb car than a 60lb box! The system was a flat 142 from 100 (even though the sub x-over point was 80 - strong mids) down to 32 where it rolled off at about 4.5 db. I played 15 Hz (you can dayum near count the oscillations) at 138 db. It would grab a hold of a steel build ing and shake the hell out of it! 138 is NOT LOUD by any means but that volume of air moving is POWERFUL. And it did it on only 600 RMS REAL watts (not a cheater amp). Guess what brand? So-called (back then) cheap-a$$ Pioneer. I was demoing for Audio Control at SBN. Wayne Harris asked me to stop because it was f-ing up db drags!!! That's not SPL, that LOW!!
To better answer the question, multiples of woofers don't change anything frequency-wise. They are still rated what they're rated and still need a proper box built to compliment them and the car.

"Yeah, I understand all the need for eq to account for the odd enviroment of a car and less then ideal speaker placement. I am talkin after that has been set. Basically, you have your baseline tune for the eq. I would think, that after that point you shouldn't need to keep tweekin the eq (except to improve that baseline). I am talking about those people who have to adjust the eq on every song and every recording that pops up. People who like to tweek constantly. It seems uneccessary (if the eq is set properly) and sometimes arrogant, in that they are trying to take the recording and make it sound as they want it, not as it was intended to sound."
It is possible and I often set a very good baseline for anyone I help with a system. There are always gonna be 'tweakers' out there. I used to be one. It wasn't arrogance. it's how I learned to tune. I got so good at it that my shop owner friend had me tweak his competition cars and the customer's cars before competitions. Today, I set and forget. I do like the SW level control and occasionally use an Epicenter (another discussion entirely) to adjust from say bass light old country to bass heavy dance or rap.

"Yeah, but he was there when the music was recorded, and mixed it along with the band. When it is set in that recording, that is how the musicians want it to sound, then the recording is shipped out for mass production. What a CD is reproducing is that sound. Getting that sound as close to the original recording is the goal, and his are the ears best trained at what that original recording sounds like."
True to a degree, but he STILL mastered it in HIS studio with it's own character, resonance and nuances. This is why IASCA grades toward musical 'presence' as in the 'image' of the performer on a stage live. At the end of the day, there IS no PERFECT reproduction. Just as there is no PERFECT ear.
Take this: most systems equalize down at about 2K-3.2K Why? Most masters will do it, too. Why? Because it's the most annoying and piercing frequency to our ears. Similarly, phones only work from 300-3K. Why? It's the range we talk in. Why so annoying, then? Evolution. A baby cries at 2.5K-3K. A baby needs our attention. The most piercing frequency will get it. No attention=dead baby (cavemen). Genes for that baby's less annoying frequency gone form the gene pool. So, 2k-3k is ALWAYS equalized down. It's natural. Look at ANY curve. That said, different listeners are gonna have different sensitivities to different frequencies. It is not at all arrogant to tailor the artist's and the master's work to your own sensitivities. It's the same as matching the EQ curve to your particular car. You are entitled and SHOULD match the EQ curve to your own ears for maximum enjoyment.
I do agree, however, that 'tweakers' are annoying to be around. You just wanna slap their hand and say "Leave it be!"

"That is a good point. That is why he couldn't do the tuning, but his ears would be better for the tuner to use as reference on that specific recording, I would think."
Therein lies the notion of 'reference'. What I think is arrogant is for speaker and equipment manufacturers to call their product 'reference'. Reference to what?! The only REAL reference is that of your own experience. See you favorite performers in your favorite venue, be it a stadium or a small ub, or even a studio. 'Reference' your own tweaking until the sound reproduced brings you back to that space and time. Tweak until you feel the warmth and have an emotional response to the good vibes you felt in that time or space. THAT'S THE ONLY REAL REFERENCE!!!!

"Yeah, I am not lookin to get too creative. Don't wanna tilt the sub to make it fit, and wanna keep the spare up there. I will probably go with a ten."
A wise choice - given teh experience, here.

"I like the ten" MTX sub install on your car."
Not my car. The pics you've seen are mostly Ryan's car, but I have done quite a few of those 10 boxes with very good success.

I sport a hand-made 72lb 15" with a real carbon fiber cone, dual 2 ohm coils and 5K RMS rating. It's in an infinite baffle 'tunnel'. It's MSRP was around $1500, but was a gift from the man who made it and my old shop-owner friend. It's powered with a 23 year old 500w (really 994 measured) RMS Linear Power 5002 with real aluminum TO3 transistors - also a gift. My system DOES evoke an emotional response from me both from the way I acquired the equipment and it's performance (although, sometimes the performance emotion is pure frustration!)

"Simple, yet tastefull and functional. that is what I am looking for. I have seen (and been involved in) projects that get too ambitious and never get done, or get halfway done and look terrible. Not gonna do that. keepin it simple."

:rolleyes:Then we are back at my original recommendation, aren't we?! :D

I, too, have been involved in projects that have lasted nearly a year. The last big one I did lasted over 6 months. The truck made TV and print at it's very first show. Persevere and it WILL get done!

[magindat]

The ghetto temp setup.
45-60 mins
$19.95 for a build it yourself pre-fabbed sealed box (Wal-Mart)
$000.00 for the sub, used a el-cheapo old sub thats about 10 yrs old (200watts max)
Removed the factory sub
Remounted the factory amp
Hook up wires
Ta Da bass.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/ctrlraven/marauder/DSCF0798Small.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a164/ctrlraven/marauder/DSCF0803Small.jpg

It's enough for me even though I am used to all out systems but this will do until I am finished with performance mods. It's enough to feel the bass vibration in my back. Winter time its real nice, got my heated and massaging seats lol.

Yessir, we know about YOU! Lemme know when you are ready to upgrade!

Glad it's still working for ya. :beer:

[offroadkarter]

Rich one dumb question, can i get the matching carpet from my local FLM dealer?

Im starting to think if i should just keep it simple with a single 12" and keep my spare in, or take everything out and put in 2 12" and make it look real nice

[KillJoy]

Rich one dumb question, can i get the matching carpet from my local FLM dealer?

Im starting to think if i should just keep it simple with a single 12" and keep my spare in, or take everything out and put in 2 12" and make it look real nice

I am assuming you have a Donut Spare?

If so, it will stand up nicely against the Gas Tank Ledge in the trunk. Wedge the top in first, followed by the bottom. Then you have the whole package shelf for whatever...... You just need to get creative as what to do with the Jack.

:beer:

KillJoy

[arejayesss]

Rich one dumb question, can i get the matching carpet from my local FLM dealer?

Im starting to think if i should just keep it simple with a single 12" and keep my spare in, or take everything out and put in 2 12" and make it look real nice
You do not need to get any special 'matching' carpet. The carpet rich picked up for me is very very very very close. It looks stock. I think its a standard color used in many applications.

[arejayesss]

As you have seen and read and read and read, there are many dimensions to audio and its recording and playback. Most people cannot and will not tell the difference between high end and low end equipment. It's all about what the listener wants. When I record music in my home studio, with Alesis studio monitors, sound is blasting off everything in so many wrong ways. Its a small guest bedroom, about 10' by 10' or so, SQUARE, bare walls, and luggage etc. stored in there as well. It is not a perfectly balanced room at all. I can't achieve unity gain and all that technical crap. And don't try to tell an engineer that you mix down your tracks with headphones!!!! My point is that for my application, at my level, the playback comes out good enough for me to hear all ranges and tracks mixed in. Until I sign a record deal, or hit the lottery, I will be content with what I've got. To each his own, as they say.

[magindat]

Rich one dumb question, can i get the matching carpet from my local FLM dealer?

Im starting to think if i should just keep it simple with a single 12" and keep my spare in, or take everything out and put in 2 12" and make it look real nice

Go with the single 10. It's available in a number of 'levels', now and is proven. It's also less expensive to build than the 12 box.

When I build, I build complete: carpet, corner protectors, wire cup, etc. Ready to go.

[Raudermaster]

Geez Rich, why don't you two get a room on the subject!

[Pops]

Its a great thread and proves music is about emotion. The truth of the matter the sounds is in the ears of the listener. That is who it has to satisfy! If you have never had the chance to audition a well tuned and installed car audio system a lesser epensive system will sound good to you. Take time and buy quality componets and get good help installing and tuning the system. Thats where the reward is. Its way to easy to worry about the cost of the product and forget about the help and the proven systems that are sold for our cars. Both of these guys make some great points. My hats off to both of them!

John of Johns Stereo

[shagdrum]

It's not about size. it's about MASS. It's the weight of the cone and the corresponding weight of the air mass we are moving. Air has mass and springs back when compressed, too.

Ok, so it is more about the motor to mass ratio and how it controls air movement (and thus, sound wave reproduction), correct?





"Actually, it was an SL2; a sedan."
Interesting.


Yeah, I had a friend with an (audiocontrol?) RTA that could read DB's. We cranked that sub up and got around 128?(I think) off one 12" sub in a sealed box runnin off an old clarion 1000w amp (that was very over-rated).





The subs play what the signal tells them to. Show me a sub that 'cut's off' at 30 and I'll sell you some high and dry property in South-Central Florida! Most subs roll of at 6db at around 2K (major generalization). This is due to the impedance (Le) of the voice coil itself creating a 6db low pass crossover by it's mere presence in the system. However, there is a point for every sub at which the SUB frequencies are muddied up by the mid-bass frequencies. This is why we use different size speakers in a SYSTEM. A sub is not good at mid bass same as a tweeter can't play mids, same as mids can't play sub (they can, just not loud - I did 64 6.5's in an old land cruiser way back and HOLY CRAP - the shop owner did it just to prove the point to his big-headed lead installer!!).


I asked this because the solobaric s10d 10" subs I have list a frequency response from "24-100" (24-100 what, it doesn't say :) ) in the literature that came with the subs. I know I am probably being picky, but the human ear hears down to around 20hz (so they say) so I am losing some signal there, I would imagine.





Today, I set and forget. I do like the SW level control and occasionally use an Epicenter (another discussion entirely) to adjust from say bass light old country to bass heavy dance or rap.


I would love to hear why those things are neccessary to the average user. Don't know too much about the Epicenter, and what it does. I have a friend who swears by active crossover networks and huge 30 band EQ's. When I press him on why they are important, he can't answer. He just says they are, basically uses the logic of "all the experts do it" which is a argument based on a logical fallacy called "appeal to authority". He is very experienced on installation, but on theory, why certian things work a certian way and the benefits of certian traditions, he tends to talk beyond his knowledge. I am sure you know that there is a lot of BS and myths in the car audio community, and there are always people in the car audio community lookin to make a buck off those myths. Hence I am very skeptical on certian things. I have yet to be convinced that 30 band EQ's are at all neccessary unless you are competing, and then only for RTA readings. The average listener won't be able to tell the difference at that level of control. From what I have seen, active crossover networks are really good in certian specific circumstances, but only really, again, at a very high level of the hobby, approaching competition level. Are those view accurate, or not?

I also have yet to be convinced of the need for "stiffening" capacitors. I had a headlight dimming problem, did the "big 3" upgrade and was fine.

[magindat]

Ok, so it is more about the motor to mass ratio and how it controls air movement (and thus, sound wave reproduction), correct?

It's about the efficiency of the whole system. Motor to mass ratio helps.


Yeah, I had a friend with an (audiocontrol?) RTA that could read DB's. We cranked that sub up and got around 128?(I think) off one 12" sub in a sealed box runnin off an old clarion 1000w amp (that was very over-rated).

That, unfortunately, doesn't mean anything without a calibrated mike and referenced signal before the measurement. Ic an make a 132 car register 148 by turning the mic gain knob on an SA-3050. I used to compete in local competitions sponsored by a shop and the 'judge' would crank the mic gain when his customers came through. Strange how all THEIR customers always won...


I asked this because the solobaric s10d 10" subs I have list a frequency response from "24-100" (24-100 what, it doesn't say :) ) in the literature that came with the subs. I know I am probably being picky, but the human ear hears down to around 20hz (so they say) so I am losing some signal there, I would imagine.

Whatever... Any speaker can play below 20 and any human can feel where their hearing leaves off... Take the real Thiele-Small (TS) parameters and do the math. Inject experience and quality material and building techniques and it doesn't matter.


I would love to hear why those things are neccessary to the average user.
They're not.
Don't know too much about the Epicenter, and what it does.
Good, cuz I could go on about it for days an most folks STILL wouldn't understand and don't need or want it and wouldn't know how to use it.
I have a friend who swears by active crossover networks and huge 30 band EQ's. When I press him on why they are important, he can't answer. He just says they are, basically uses the logic of "all the experts do it" which is a argument based on a logical fallacy called "appeal to authority". He is very experienced on installation, but on theory, why certian things work a certian way and the benefits of certian traditions, he tends to talk beyond his knowledge. I am sure you know that there is a lot of BS and myths in the car audio community, and there are always people in the car audio community lookin to make a buck off those myths. Hence I am very skeptical on certian things. I have yet to be convinced that 30 band EQ's are at all neccessary unless you are competing, and then only for RTA readings.
They're not.
The average listener won't be able to tell the difference at that level of control.
Don't underestimate people. They can tell 'something's not right' they just don't know what it is.
From what I have seen, active crossover networks are really good in certian specific circumstances, but only really, again, at a very high level of the hobby, approaching competition level. Are those view accurate, or not?
Are we talking active crossover or 30 band eq's here? They're not the same. Most of today's radios (esp Pioneer) have active crossovers built in. They usually also have some parametric EQ-ing built in, often witha few presets which work for the vast average majority of cars. This is often quite good for most folks.

I also have yet to be convinced of the need for "stiffening" capacitors. I had a headlight dimming problem, did the "big 3" upgrade and was fine.
Big3? Stiffening Capacitor? Oh boy, Electrical theory. Caps work. Period.
The only other thing you can do to reinforce your power suply system is grounds. Lots of grounds. Electricity flows in a circuit. It has to be able to get back to the battery as easily as it left. Almost EVERYONE neglects ground. There's no such thing as too much ground.
As for caps, that's an entirely different discussion. If you don't believe in them, that's your loss (literally, of amperage and amp headroom). But I'm tired now and this thread is about boxes. Start a new thread about caps and I'll school ya.

At the end of the day, I speak truth based on direct experience. Take it or leave it. If you wanna learn about caps, I'll tell ya. Equations and all. But not now and not here...

[shagdrum]

Fair enough.

[2,4shofast]

I was going to take us all the stereo stuff from my Citroen wagon, but I realized that I really dont want all the weight in the Marauder. I am probably going to sell my 2 12" Image Dynamics IDMAX's and HiFonics Colossus 3200 watt amp to get more go fast parts! You can check out the set up if you want. Yea I know a little overkill...
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2683537
:banana:

[magindat]

I was going to take us all the stereo stuff from my Citroen wagon, but I realized that I really dont want all the weight in the Marauder. I am probably going to sell my 2 12" Image Dynamics IDMAX's and HiFonics Colossus 3200 watt amp to get more go fast parts! You can check out the set up if you want. Yea I know a little overkill...
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2683537
:banana:

I'd buy the whole car off ya!

Good install. I dislike the 'top box' and would have worked that out differently to keep my rear view. Also, if you stay below the glass you can compete USAC Novice. Above the glass and you're instantly upped to Pro. It has become my standard practice to stay below the glass for that and safety reasons. However, the work is very clean. Impressive.

[2,4shofast]

Thanks for the compliments, I actually only paid $500 dollars for the car and it was just my daily driver before I totalled my 97 SHO. I wasnt too concerned about the rear windows, I put two layers of 4% limo tint on all the back windows so you couldnt really see out either way:) I wasnt fond of the rear box either, just had a ton of stereo parts sitting at the house and nothing to put it in.

Boredom and beer equals....me going over board. I put about $3K (not including any stereo equipment) into the $500 hooptie and sold it for $500. I dont think I will ever learn!:shake: I enjoy working on cars that no one in their right mind would even consider.:beer:

[magindat]

I enjoy working on cars that no one in their right mind would even consider.:beer:

Who ever said I was in my right mind?! :rolleyes:

[2,4shofast]

Good call:cool: I will probably be working with you on a box when I get outta this crap hole...Im very impressed on with your work and I havent worked with Marauder's yet for stereo's and I dont want to re-invent the wheel! Im just concerned about the mounting depth in the front doors as I would like to go with a 6X8 component set up, do you know what the max mounting depth is?

[magindat]

Good call:cool: I will probably be working with you on a box when I get outta this crap hole...
I'll be glad to help

Im very impressed on with your work and I havent worked with Marauder's yet for stereo's and I dont want to re-invent the wheel!
Thank you and very wise.


Im just concerned about the mounting depth in the front doors as I would like to go with a 6X8 component set up, do you know what the max mounting depth is?
It's about dis much... :D

You should be able to get a 6.5 mid in there with slight trimming and custom adapter plate. I'll tell you, though, The Pioneer REV's are no slouch in there and still image pretty well....

[2,4shofast]

What is the RMS on the Pioneers? I am going to use my Infinity 6ch amp for the set up. I have a Image Dynamic IDQ 12" for the sub and the 5th and 6th channel should be fine to push it Image is known for an awesome response range and Kappa 6X9's for the rear deck. I still have the my Kappa 6.5 components I could use for the front but they have been WELL used and probably wouldnt mind swapping them out. I wanted to fiberglass tweeter pods into the side mirror bolt cover plate, have you done this before?

[magindat]

What is the RMS on the Pioneers? I am going to use my Infinity 6ch amp for the set up. I have a Image Dynamic IDQ 12" for the sub and the 5th and 6th channel should be fine to push it Image is known for an awesome response range and Kappa 6X9's for the rear deck. I still have the my Kappa 6.5 components I could use for the front but they have been WELL used and probably wouldnt mind swapping them out. I wanted to fiberglass tweeter pods into the side mirror bolt cover plate, have you done this before?

I dunno. Look 'em up. I've hit 'em with 125 RMS before!!!

I haven't fiberglassed anything in years. I just haven't had to. Besides, I'd put the tweets up on the dash or the pillar. Reflect 'em off the windshield and reverse tweeter polarity. BIG FRONT STAGE!!!!

[2,4shofast]

Good Idea, didnt think about that. Its been awhile since I have even seen my dash I will have to check out my options when I get back :beer:

[magindat]

Good Idea, didnt think about that. Its been awhile since I have even seen my dash I will have to check out my options when I get back :beer:

Thank you for your service, sir!!!

[2,4shofast]

No problem, thank you for your support for the troops... Support seems to becoming rare these day, everything comes at a cost and many people forget this in their day to day lives, sorry about the:soapbox: speech.:burnout:

[magindat]

No problem, thank you for your support for the troops... Support seems to becoming rare these day, everything comes at a cost and many people forget this in their day to day lives, sorry about the:soapbox: speech.:burnout:

Hey man, you don't have to support the cause in order to support the people! Get yer arse back here in one piece, will ya?!

[2,4shofast]

With pleasure, the Marauder waits for no cause!

[offroadkarter]

Now heres a question i forgot to ask

What would you suggest to get as a sub and amp?

So far im thinking

Pioneer

MTX

JL

Kicker

Thats all i can think of right now.

[2,4shofast]

How much to you want to spend? Are you looking for sound quality or boom?

[Raudermaster]

Rich is really the man to answer those, but I've had experience with all those, and my top two choices would be Kicker and MTX.

[magindat]

Now heres a question i forgot to ask

What would you suggest to get as a sub and amp?

So far im thinking

Pioneer

MTX

JL

Kicker

Thats all i can think of right now.

Honestly and not condescendingly...

Establish a budget and an explanation of what you're looking for as far as sound. PM me the info - I'll make a REAL HONEST recommendation.

Until such time, it's just pi$$ in the wind.

Nearly all major brands have model levels and are comparable in price at those levels. No one 'brand' is the 'best'.

We do lots of MTX and Pioneer here because John Kuhn of John's Stereo takes good care of us with price and warranty on those brands... and they are very fine products.

[offroadkarter]

Ill PM you right when i get home :)


God school is dreadful on a friday :(, time to go get some food!

[offroadkarter]

Well i found the amp i'd like to use. Its gotten 4 5 out of 5 ratings

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?showAll=N&g=120&i=158XM2002&tp=115

Browsing crutchfeild has changed my options, ill probably spend 150-200 max on a sub or so if im getting 2, or go to circut city and get the same one on sale for like 100 bucks.

Ill report back when i think i found a good sub.

[2,4shofast]

Crutchfield and C.C. are extremely overprice, they are nice places to get info for what you like but you can normally find products for 20 to 30% less elsewhere online, just a thought.

[Raudermaster]

Sony = :sleepy::down:

[offroadkarter]

Sony = :sleepy::down:

They are better than the old ones because they dont overheat anymore.

Like i said, im not looking to win any competitions or out blast the kid in the civic hatchback next to me.

I suppose that 200W per sub would be plenty, i dont want to cause a million vibrations and i dont need anything nuts.

Back to shopping for subs!

[2,4shofast]

Check your inbox...

[offroadkarter]

Check your inbox...


PM recieved, browsing commenced :D

[Raudermaster]

They are better than the old ones because they dont overheat anymore.

Like i said, im not looking to win any competitions or out blast the kid in the civic hatchback next to me.

I suppose that 200W per sub would be plenty, i dont want to cause a million vibrations and i dont need anything nuts.

Back to shopping for subs!


Actually, the old Xplod's were the best. My cousin is still running old school, first gen Xplod's with their 1600w amp pushing two 12" Xplod's and it's still sounds great.

[risky]

go into riskys profile have 4 15"s

[offroadkarter]

go into riskys profile have 4 15"s


Thats way to over the top for my abilities, plus i still need trunk space ;)

[magindat]

go into riskys profile have 4 15"s

Risky has a nice LOOKING setup.

No trunk space.
No pass through to the car. Is this to annoy people or entertain you?

I could get more in-car SPL with 4-10's on the shelf and still have a trunk.

Looks good, though.

[2,4shofast]

Very clean set up Risky, looks awesome.

[GreekGod]

...No pass through to the car. Is this to annoy people ...I could get more in-car SPL ......

...Please explain futher???

[offroadkarter]

Just thought of soemthing, i dont think 12's will fit on that trunk shelf, so now ill start looking for 10's!


Edit: Nope i guess a 12" could fit


does ANYONE have pictures of 12" subs in there car!?!?!??!?!

[Aren Jay]

PM Magindat.

You don't need to have the sub facing backwards, it can lie flat too.

Think how big your spare tire is, you can have a huge sub.

[offroadkarter]

PM Magindat.

You don't need to have the sub facing backwards, it can lie flat too.

Think how big your spare tire is, you can have a huge sub.


I already PM'd magindat

If a 12 would fit i'd use it. I would think it can fit, and i dont want it flat. I know exactly what i want for a box and just have to find a way to make it work.

[offroadkarter]

Has anyone ever heard of Volfenhag?

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_1586_Volfenhag+ZX-4712DVX.html

If thats a good sub i'd like to use it, 500rms and its red!

[TKde0]

That subwoofer's casing looks identical to one I had of another brand. The one I bought was 750W RMS and I was only giving it 500W. I went through four of them with the BestBuy warranty in a little over a year until I talked them into letting me swap to a better sub.

[offroadkarter]

That subwoofer's casing looks identical to one I had of another brand. The one I bought was 750W RMS and I was only giving it 500W. I went through four of them with the BestBuy warranty in a little over a year until I talked them into letting me swap to a better sub.


Yeah someone put up a comment saying the first day he had his, they blew out.


PASS!

How's the MTX Thunder5500 12"? I have heard they are good, im interested in those now.

[magindat]

How's the MTX Thunder5500 12"? I have heard they are good, im interested in those now.

VERY successful in MM's (10"). The 'Perfect Box' uses these and King Kong used 4.

The box to fit in the stock sub location for a 12" is $250. Finished and ready for the woofer. It's a VERY complicated and time-consuming build.

[offroadkarter]

VERY successful in MM's (10"). The 'Perfect Box' uses these and King Kong used 4.

The box to fit in the stock sub location for a 12" is $250. Finished and ready for the woofer. It's a VERY complicated and time-consuming build.

So im guessing that the 12" is an extremely tight fit?

[magindat]

So im guessing that the 12" is an extremely tight fit?

No, it would be a perfect fit, but would be a complicated build to use all available space and accommodate a 12" woofer in an 11" space. And before you ask, yes, it can be done and no, I won't tell you how. If you want a 12 bad enough, buy the box.

[offroadkarter]

No, it would be a perfect fit, but would be a complicated build to use all available space and accommodate a 12" woofer in an 11" space. And before you ask, yes, it can be done and no, I won't tell you how. If you want a 12 bad enough, buy the box.

Only 2 things though

1. I have a specific idea of what i want for a box

2. shipping from Florida to NJ :eek:

[magindat]

Only 2 things though

1. I have a specific idea of what i want for a box

2. shipping from Florida to NJ :eek:

Then only one thing.

1) Build it yourself.

[offroadkarter]

Then only one thing.

1) Build it yourself.

Will do! :)

[TKde0]

Rich's price is very reasonable for the build quality/materials and experience he puts into it. Shipping probably wouldn't be much more than $20-30. I'm further from him than you and I'm in the process of buying a box right now.

[Raudermaster]

Has anyone ever heard of Volfenhag?

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_1586_Volfenhag+ZX-4712DVX.html

If thats a good sub i'd like to use it, 500rms and its red!

Volfenhag's kick ass. Good thing about them, if and when they blow, they're cheap to replace. Sound great too.

[magindat]

Volfenhag's kick ass. Good thing about them, if and when they blow, they're cheap to replace. Sound great too.

I've only ever blown 1 speaker in my entire life. Including cheapies. What are you guys doing wrong?

The one I blew, I blew on purpose by feeding a 200W 12" with over 1000W RMS with a 25Hz sine wave!! It didn't just blow. It CAUGHT ON FIRE!!!! That amp is 23 years old - was 19 at the time and is in my car TODAY!

[Pops]

These subs are cheap junk and are not worth any amount of money. You should spend the money and buy name brand. You know the saying if it dont go chrome it. I do not understand how it is ok to buy something and justify it because you can buy another one because there are cheap. What a waste of money.

[GreekGod]

"The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory."- Aldo Gucci

[magindat]

You posted a request for sub box ideas. You got pages and pages of over 20 years of my own knowledge, comments from John's vast knowledge, and a very well behaved debate.

In the end, you basically said "I'm gonna do it my way anyways." So, why bother us? I'd say you should never have posted, but at least others benefited.

With an attitude like that you HAD to expect :flamer:.

[GreekGod]

You posted a request for sub box ideas. You got pages and pages of over 20 years of my own knowledge, comments from John's vast knowledge, and a very well behaved debate.

In the end, you basically said "I'm gonna do it my way anyways." So, why bother us? I'd say you should never have posted, but at least others benefited.

With an attitude like that you HAD to expect :flamer:.

:confused: (Post #1):

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif Subwoofer options
<hr style="color: rgb(209, 209, 225);" size="1"> I'd like to see what everyone has (subwoofer wise) in their trunks, im pondering a setup.

Post up your pics!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------<!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
<!-- / message --><!-- controls -->

[magindat]

:confused: (Post #1):

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif Subwoofer options
<hr style="color: rgb(209, 209, 225);" size="1"> I'd like to see what everyone has (subwoofer wise) in their trunks, im pondering a setup.

Post up your pics!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------<!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
<!-- / message --><!-- controls -->

I translate that to mean "I'm Looking for ideas", then later posts "I have a specific design in mind."

:confused:

[Aren Jay]

He did say he was pondering a setup.

And he is a little kid.

Logic centres are still forming in his brain, so the Entrophy is mucking up his posts, but that is to be expected.

Did anyone actually post a picture, I skipped about 4 pages here.

[Raudermaster]

I've only ever blown 1 speaker in my entire life. Including cheapies. What are you guys doing wrong?

The one I blew, I blew on purpose by feeding a 200W 12" with over 1000W RMS with a 25Hz sine wave!! It didn't just blow. It CAUGHT ON FIRE!!!! That amp is 23 years old - was 19 at the time and is in my car TODAY!

I'm saying if and when, never had one of my own subs ever blow. Few of my friends have, but it was due to poor wiring and too much wattage.

[magindat]

He did say he was pondering a setup.

And he is a little kid.

Logic centres are still forming in his brain, so the Entrophy is mucking up his posts, but that is to be expected.

Did anyone actually post a picture, I skipped about 4 pages here.

There's pics in my gallery. i can't help it if he's too lazy to look.

[offroadkarter]

There's pics in my gallery. i can't help it if he's too lazy to look.


I did browse thru, but i don't have the skill to have a 15" sub woofer hanging out the back.

I was curious to see what people had on this site before i had an idea, but since i only saw a couple and was either not what i was looking for, or was way over the top, i just started thinking of what i would be capable of doing.


Next time i wont ask for ideas or help, after all thats not what a forum is for

[GreekGod]

I prefer a removable box, this one has two 12" JL's. I have other ones I can swap out or transfer to other vehicles:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/MMsoundinstall002.jpg

[magindat]

Next time i wont ask for ideas or help, after all thats not what a forum is for

Grow up. You got pages and pages of help. FROM ME!!!!

I didn't HAVE to post up all that information, but I DID!!!!

Ungrateful #$%^%**()#&*!!!!!

[n00bkiller944]

I prefer a removable box, this one has two 12" JL's. I have other ones I can swap out or transfer to other vehicles:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/MMsoundinstall002.jpg

This may sound like a dumb question, but if you need trunk space can you just unplug your sub, pull it out, and still listen to the radio? What do you have to do with the wire with all the power running to it? Sorry again if this sounds dumb...

[GreekGod]

This may sound like a dumb question, but if you need trunk space can you just unplug your sub, pull it out, and still listen to the radio? What do you have to do with the wire with all the power running to it? Sorry again if this sounds dumb...

I use a common 2 conductor plug, to quickly remove the cabinet, and (also) make sure the plug pins don't get shorted out (which would shut down the sub-amp). Radio and CD changer works fine without the subs connected.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/MMsoundinstall003.jpg

[n00bkiller944]

^^^Very cool man, thanks for the quick post! Can i buy said conductor pins at any old hardware store?

[GreekGod]

^^^Very cool man, thanks for the quick post! Can i buy said conductor pins at any old hardware store?

Most any stereo store or installer should stock them. They are a standard size & spread (3/4"?) plug.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

Ryan I'll help you build your box, it will be shaped like a diamond and it will blow 7 kinds of smoke

[musclemerc]

I kept the original sub enclosure in the trunk and added a shallow mount pioneer sub. You cant hear me a mile away but the cabin shure has a nice bassline. I'm too old for the earthquake ghetto blasters

[offroadkarter]

Ryan I'll help you build your box, it will be shaped like a diamond and it will blow 7 kinds of smoke



Steve, this thread is two years old! :eek:

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

Thats okay my woodworking skills aren't sooguud anyway, I built a sub for a friend once to dimensions I measured and it ended up being about a half inch too large to fit his trunk. He was pretty pissed.

[2,4shofast]

Steve, this thread is two years old! :eek:

That is what I was thinking