351C vs. 400

[davidholland]

I realize this is a little unusual post for this site however I figured there are alot of ford guys here. I'm thinking of replacing the 302 in my 74 Ranchero with a 351 Cleveland or a 400. I know that some people think the 400 should be a boat anchor,however feel free to chime in. I'm not looking to tow anything or drag race,just have good power and preferably gobs of torque to spin the tires if I so desire. I realize that I could also juice up the 302 pretty easy which is also a consideration. I was actually considering a late model 87-93 5.0. HO EFI with an AOD as well. The car has a C4 in it now so I know i'm looking at a tranny upgrade to a C6 or Fmx for the 351c/400.

Any thoughts? anybody done something similar?

[Tony Rouviere]

If it were between 351 C or a 400 M go w/ the 351 C. If it were between a 351 C and a 351 W I would go w/ a 351 W and stroke it to 427. Parts are cheap and everybody builds parts for them.

[Richy04]

I am not much of a Ford guy as most of my American Muscle over the years was Chevy, Olds and Buick. I had a Bronco that had the 351m. It had a port and polish job,TRW pistons,Crane cam, screw in chevy big block studs with Manley guide plates,cut pedestals, Roller rockers, 3/8 pushrods, You get the drift.. This truck was VERY fast and can rip the spider gears and carrier right out of a Ford 9 inch. I know I've dont it twice! There are wikis that have the differences listed between the different motors. I paid a grand for this truck not running. It turned out to be a locked up oil pump which thankfully broke the gear at the bottom of the dist stalling it out.

The one mistake I made was going to a high volume oil pump. In the winter I had to keep a spare dist as the oil pressure would snap the roll pin on startup every now and then. It was a beast though!

[TooManyFords]

Unless you are totally married to the idea of a Cleveland, go with a 351W.

[O's Fan Rich]

The 351c and the 400 are different types of motors. The 400 runs under what we called the M line or modified. Not alot of performance stuff out there and what is ain't cheap.
The Clev is a great motor. The 4bl heads are designed for high rpm work and do a terrific job of it. If your choice is those two, the 351c ids it... but it's bigger and heavier than your 302.
You'll need to beef up the suspension a bit for it.
I'm gonna agree with John, the 351w is the way to go. It'll bolt in where your 302 is, it will accept a nice OD trans if you want and there is a ton of good parts out there to choose from.
Heck you can get one stroked out to a 427 if you want!

[Mike Poore]

The 400M is not a bad choice, either. My recollection is that it was for truck applications, with a very strong block and main bearings. If some of the oil passages and water "holes" are opened, a set of Windsor heads can be used, making a very strong and free breathing engine, especially if the heads are ported. It's been a long time, but I believe this is correct.
About the 351 Cleveland, weren't there some of those blocks with 4 bolt mains? Also, why not consider the Ford Motorsport crate engine of your choice? :)

[davidholland]

So many choices! I'm not sure what to do. The kicker is the 302 in there now runs like a top. 74K original well maintained miles,the car is just a slouch. the 2:79 or so rear gears do not help.I guess a windsor might not be a bad choice. I just always liked lookig at those cleveland valve covers!

[davidholland]

One more question. I beleive I read somewhere that if I want to go the 351 windsor AOD route that certain year 351w would need to be used because of bolt pattern on block?

[Dragcity]

Right up my alley.

I raced on a 400 for seven years. I still have everything, including a new block.

What is this going into? The 400 has more physicl torque than the others. Long stroke. Believe me, torque is not just a calculated number from HP.

I liked the 400 for a few reasons. One was the 4" stroke. I packed 351 CJ forged pistons in it and came up with 11.8:1 compression. That was with the open chamber 400 heads. I can tell you the engine ran great. Too many 1/8 and 1/4 mile runs to count. I could drive that thing from Buffalo to VA Beach and get 22 MPG. I had it in a 1978 T-Bird, with A/C and full exhaust. The other reason I did the 400 was because no-one else really did.

The 351 C,M 400 are MUCH larger engines than the 302/351W.

If you are really interested in getting into a big bock Ford, let's talk. I have been looking for a home for my old race engine. The custom Hooker headers I have are for the 1977, 1978 and 1979 Thunderbird, Cougar, Ranchero and wagon. Custom for power steering components. I have the Performer intake and Holley 860 cfm, double pump, dual feed mechanical secondaries - oh, manual coke.

Heads should be in good shape too. Double springs. valves could probably use a reseat after sitting form so many years. Everything is apart in boxes, wrapped in oily rags and news paper. I'll check things out if you want.

If you do a 351 c,m 400, you will be best served to go with a c-6, or get a really well built c-4. I never broke my ford 9" rear end. I ran 3.90s with 10' X 32" slicks while at the track.

Good luck, let me know wat it's going into.

[Marauderjack]

351W stroked to 408......427 strokers are pushing the envelope unless you use a NEW block!!:cool:

I have a 408W stroker (1974 block) in my Cobra.....very strong engine wit gobs of torque!!:beer:

Marauderjack:burnout:

[RoyLPita]

No chance on changing out the rear end gears and upgrading to either a larger 2 bbl carb or 4 BBL setup with dual exhaust?

BTW, I have the complete Ford shop guides for the 1974 Fords. Make me an offer if you are interested.

[Loco1234]

Heres something I thaught I'd never say since Im such a pure BOSS 351C lover at heart but if you want the best of both worlds get a 351W block and BOSS 351C heads... with some minor work you can make whats called a Clevor. Im in the Detomaso Pantera club of America and own a pantera myself. It us a Boss 351C but many Pantera owners havce switched to using the 351 Clevor. It has inexpensive perfomance option but uses the well breathing heads off the 351C. Plus yolu get to keep the 351C valve cover you want without going to a full out 351C... and you can still stroke it out to a 408 for lots of torqure if you want....

[Breadfan]

What do you all use to get the 408 stroker out of the 351w. I've been looking at 351W stroker kits most are 392ci. I know it's close but wondering if theres a better way than with a ford racing or Eagle kit.

Figure this fits in with the thread too :)

[davidholland]

If you make a clevor (windsor block & Cleveland heads) what intake manifold do you use? I guess I could put the Cleveland heads on the 302 I have now and have a Boss 302?

[hwy73]

Old school saying:

No substitute for cubic inches.

[Mike Poore]

Heres something I thaught I'd never say since Im such a pure BOSS 351C lover at heart but if you want the best of both worlds get a 351W block and BOSS 351C heads... with some minor work you can make whats called a Clevor. Im in the Detomaso Pantera club of America and own a pantera myself. It us a Boss 351C but many Pantera owners havce switched to using the 351 Clevor. It has inexpensive perfomance option but uses the well breathing heads off the 351C. Plus yolu get to keep the 351C valve cover you want without going to a full out 351C... and you can still stroke it out to a 408 for lots of torqure if you want....

It's sort of the same thing I was saying about the 400M, only I was confused about which heads to use. Wasn't that a stronger block with larger main bearings, and stout crank? I remember guys who built some of those motors, and recall them being very strong performers, with gobs of torque.

Of course, with the advent of reliable and warrented factory crate motors, you get to pick out exactly what you want, and bolt it in. Considering the uncertanty of having a motor built, I bet the price difference is a wash.

I do, however, consider Dragcity's offer to be a very attractive one. :twocents:

[TooManyFords]

It's sort of the same thing I was saying about the 400M

Just a clarification. Ford never made a 400M. It is just a "400". A little pet peeve of mine and I like to set the record straight is all.

Cheers!

:D

[TooManyFords]

Here is a picture of the 351M I rebuilt when I did a frame-off resto of a 79 F150 Shortbox Stepside.

I'll see if I can find other pictures of the engine build with the roller rockers and Aussie heads.

http://john.frieltek.com/toomanyfords/f1504x4/img/351M.jpg

[Breadfan]

So can I build a stroked 351w to 406 on a tight budget? Maybe some car craft engineering...

[Mike Poore]

Just a clarification. Ford never made a 400M. It is just a "400". A little pet peeve of mine and I like to set the record straight is all.

Cheers!

:D

Depends upon who was calling what, what. The 400"M" did exist, in the context that it was an brother of the 351"M" which was simply a designation used to avoid confusion with the 351 Cleveland and 351 Windsor motors. "M" stuck with the 400 engine, because it was simply a stroked 351"M". Although there never was a 400 preceding it, therefore no need to stick a specific identification designator to it.

I guess, the best way to describe it is: an FE Motor with Cleveland heads.

See attached article:

http://www.projectbronco.com/History/history_of_the_ford_351m.htm

[Dragcity]

Uh Oh. You didn't just say FE, did you.

Here we go again...

[hwy73]

I guess, the best way to describe it is:
an FE Motor with Cleveland heads.

:eek:

No flames intended but.........

I don't think many people have put Cleveland heads on an FE block.
As the article states, the 400 was part of the new 335 series of Ford engines. And since it pre-dates the so-called 351M, I think a more accurate description would be that the 351M was a destroked 400.

Like I said, no flames just an old 400 fan sticking up for the breed !

:popcorn::popcorn:

[Mike Poore]

OOPS, my bad :o.

When I read "To start, Ford changed the transmission bell-housing pattern to match that of the larger 429/460 engines." I jumped to the incorrect conclusion that it was a modified FE.
I knew better, Sorry. :corner:

In any case, it's an excellant choice, and again I go back to Dragcity's offer as a good one.

[TooManyFords]

Depends upon who was calling what, what. The 400"M" did exist, in the context that it was an brother of the 351"M" which was simply a designation used to avoid confusion with the 351 Cleveland and 351 Windsor motors. "M" stuck with the 400 engine, because it was simply a stroked 351"M". Although there never was a 400 preceding it, therefore no need to stick a specific identification designator to it.

I guess, the best way to describe it is: an FE Motor with Cleveland heads.

See attached article:

http://www.projectbronco.com/History/history_of_the_ford_351m.htm

And if you bothered to read the article in the link it clearly states:


The “M”, by the way, does not stand for anything. Ford only used the “M” designation to distinguish it from the 351 W (Windsor) and the now discontinued 351C (Cleveland). The “M” designation has now become know to mean “modified” or “Michigan”, even though the 351M was produced at both the Cleveland foundry and Michigan casting center.

When trying to distinguish between the three different 351 c.i. motors, they resorted to using the "M". Since there was never a 400C or 400W, Ford never referred to the 400 as 400M.

[Dragcity]

I had to go back and re-read my posts to ensure I did not type an M after 400. I know better. 400 was a configuration (abortion) all its own. Ford did a lot of goofy things. I think there are 7 different lenghts of pushrods for these things.

Looks like you are going to have lots of choices, thus, great fun.

Let me know if I can help in any way.

By the way, these big blocks sound great with headers......

[Mike Poore]

.......And if you bothered to read .

Excuse me? Let's keep it civil, please.

It's really OK to be mistaken, here, and I admitted my mistake(s)

Right, or wrong, though, the 400 is widly referred to as the 400M.

[Dragcity]

Hmmm, I wonder if it would fit in the Marauder?

Think it would pass emmisions? Eh, who needs and EEC or PCM.

[TheDealer]

a 400 might be reffered to as a 400m but it's not an m since it's not modified. A 351m is a modified 400.
I have a 351c 4v. in my 70 Mustang Mach1. It's stroked to 408 with 11.5-1 compression and a solid roller cam 242@.50 with 623 lift. A torker intake and 800 DP Holley. Has a 4spd top loader and 4.30 gears. Makes 567 hp. It's a show car that I took to the track one time. After 5 passes I broke the traction lock rear. I now have a Detroit locker but have not been to the track again. The best run was 11.42 @ 116 mph. I know there is more in the car and driver. I'm sure is would run 10.90's if I really tried. They are a great motor and are NOT expensive. I don't know why people say this. I didn't have to buy aftermarket heads and everything else was inline price wise with other motors.

[88LTDCV351]

My 351 Windsor seems mighty slow to me. Wish there were some smog legal performance parts and alternatives to the 2 BBL Variable Venturi. :(