Effects of E10...

[magindat]

According to last night's news, Florida gas stations are being mandated to carry E10. 10% ethanol fuel. The news claims this will cause a 3% decrease in mileage.

My question is: What will that mean to our tunes?

[Dragcity]

Pinging.

I have cut timing twice and richend the mix twice..

I started pinging again yesterday...?


E-fuel sucks. I'll bet we are closer to 30% than 10% here in Buffalo.

[ahess77]

Where have you been able to buy gas that didn't have 10% ethanol already? I've only seen it available in mountain regions that didn't have 10% standard.

[magindat]

They haven't indicated e10 on any of the pumps except WalMart. I only buy gas for the Durango there occasionally. Never for the Marauder.

The segment talked about station having to change filters and all kinds of crap to accommodate E10.

[sailsmen]

I drive throughout the Gulf Coast as far as Pensacola and I have never seen Ethanol.

[magindat]

I drive throughout the Gulf Coast as far as Pensacola and I have never seen Ethanol.

According to the local news, here, you will soon. Guess is mandated all stations replace all grades with it.

[duhtroll]

I've never noticed a decrease in mileage using ethanol, or to be more specific, an increase from not using it.

Here are answers to many of the ethanol questions by the folks who are producing it:

http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_3b.html

[magindat]

Thanks.

I wasn't really looking for an ethanol debate. It's coming. No debate. What do i need to do about it to keep it from hurting my engine?

Do I need to increase fuel since there's less btu's per volume of ethanol? Does it balance out and I do nothing? What's the story here? Do all of us who are tuned for GASOLINE need to retard some timing or spray some more fuel to keep our safety margins? Or do we just loose a little power?

The stoich A/F ratio for ethanol is 9. Does this mean we need richer A/F's to compensate?

[magindat]

Another issue:
Ethanol conducts electricity. Gas does not. How will our open connections on our fuel pumps react?

[RF Overlord]

We've had nothing but E10 gas here in New England for many years and I've noticed no detrimental effects of any kind.

[magindat]

<table class="wikitable"><tbody><tr><th>Fuel</th> <th>AFRst</th> <th>FARst</th> <th>Equivalence
Ratio</th> <th>Lambda</th> </tr> <tr> <td>Gasoline stoichiometric</td> <td>14.7</td> <td>0.068</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Gasoline max power rich</td> <td>12.5</td> <td>0.08</td> <td>1.176</td> <td>0.8503</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Gasoline max power lean</td> <td>13.23</td> <td>0.0755</td> <td>1.111</td> <td>0.900</td> </tr> <tr> <td>E85 stoichiometric</td> <td>9.765</td> <td>0.10235</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>E85 max power rich</td> <td>6.975</td> <td>0.1434</td> <td>1.40</td> <td>0.7143</td> </tr> <tr> <td>E85 max power lean</td> <td>8.4687</td> <td>0.118</td> <td>1.153</td> <td>0.8673</td> </tr> <tr> <td>E100 stoichiometric</td> <td>9.0078</td> <td>0.111</td> <td>1</td> <td>1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>E100 max power rich</td> <td>6.429</td> <td>0.155</td> <td>1.4</td> <td>0.714</td> </tr> <tr> <td>E100 max power lean</td> <td>7.8</td> <td>0.128</td> <td>1.15</td> <td>0.870</td></tr></tbody></table>

[magindat]

We've had nothing but E10 gas here in New England for many years and I've noticed no detrimental effects of any kind.

Good to know.

Look at it this way.

Here, in FL, cars are tuned on dyno using 93 octane pump GAS. Now we will be forced to used E10 which has a lower stoich. Do we need to re-tune or adjust tune to compensate?

Conversely, if a car was tuned on E10 or there is a generic tune with E10 knowledge in mind, then there should be no tune adjustments needed.

[Paul T. Casey]

Should be 10% nationwide already, going to 15% end of next year. Ethanol supposedly boosts octane. It does, but not the way we're used to. I had one of my tunes done in the south a fews years ago. When I get back home, I get a CEL for an overlean condition on the tune. We also have what is called "oxygenated fuel" in the northeast, along with most other metropolitan areas in the country. The quality of fuel will affect performance. For most, who don't have "edgy" tunes, the 10% shouldn't be much concern. For others, a re-tune may be in order. Keep an ear to the engine, and if your getting a ping where you didn't have one before, check for fuel issues. Another idea, albeit rather expensive, is to add a quality Octane Boost. IMHO, the only one that works is Lucas. It is made with MMT, which is the anti-knock chemical which replaced lead. MMT is what is being replaced with the ethanol. Check the label and see what you buy is made of. Generally, if it says not street legal, it will be either lead or MMT. Those are the products which will work. The street legal crap is just alcohol, which is the root cause of our problems to begin with.

[magindat]

Post 6

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1958243

[Dragcity]

As Paul T. Casey stated, my "ear to the engine" has been telling me to add fuel and pull timing.

The good additive is $10 a pop. Great, another 67 cent per gallon.

Now you know why I want to lower the operating temp of my engine. I'm hoping the 170 T-stat will help, along wiht the TR-6 plugs. I just cant pull anymore timing.

[Paul T. Casey]

The good additive is $10 a pop. Great, another 67 cent per gallon.


Yep, told you it was expensive, but, worth it. Sad thing is, this E10 crap is supposed to help our "dependance" of forgien oil. When 15% is mandated (end of 2009), we will become a corn importing country. :mad2:

[Dragcity]

I read some of those articles. I may be wrong (as I usually am), but ehtonol as Anti-detonating is NOT what I have seen/heard/experienced.

[duhtroll]

Thanks - I offered the answers in an effort to help you. The answer to at least one of the questions is on the page I provided.

As for tuning, no, I don't think you need to retune. I have had several different tunes in mine for over 80K miles with no probems. Some were customized dyno tunes and some were "stock" based on mods I had at the time.




Thanks.

I wasn't really looking for an ethanol debate. It's coming. No debate. What do i need to do about it to keep it from hurting my engine?

Do I need to increase fuel since there's less btu's per volume of ethanol? Does it balance out and I do nothing? What's the story here? Do all of us who are tuned for GASOLINE need to retard some timing or spray some more fuel to keep our safety margins? Or do we just loose a little power?

The stoich A/F ratio for ethanol is 9. Does this mean we need richer A/F's to compensate?

[Aren Jay]

Yep, told you it was expensive, but, worth it. Sad thing is, this E10 crap is supposed to help our "dependance" of forgien oil. When 15% is mandated (end of 2009), we will become a corn importing country. :mad2:


Sugar Cane not corn.

As for tunes, I suppose the good thing is that we almost all have or soon will have custom tunes. These guys know what they are doing and will have solutions for us. Win for us and a loss for those who's stock tunes or dealership tunes can't handle change.

Someone should ask Dennis or Lidio about this.

[Richy04]

can the lidio tune be adjusted by the end user and how can it be done? I run the 91 octane tune he offers. Tnx Richy

[ImpalaSlayer]

its been around here for about 3 years now

[JMan]

Although Paul and Duhtroll have provided facts for you, and the corvette guy has great info as well, let me interject and try to clarify some of that info:
1. Ethanol is currently used throughout the U.S. in motor fuels as an antiknock agent. Tetraethyl Lead replaced ethanol for this purpose in the early 1930's. It was lobbied that the lead was cheaper. We poisoned the planet with gaseous Pb for almost half a century. The lead was replaced with MTBE (Don't remember what that stands for.). MTBE is a carcinogen and has been removed from gasoline completely throughout this country (U.S.) for over one year now. We continued to poison the planet with it until then. Ethanol replaces the MTBE in our motorfuels - we have come full circle. Although ethanol has its downfalls or detriments, the benefits greatly outweigh them.

2. Motorfuels containing 10% or greater ethanol (or 5% methanol for that matter) must be marked as such. As I stated before, there is ethanol in all our fuels. Only the ones with a full 10% or greater are marked. Your local gas station may have fuel containing 9.8% ethanol and you don't know it.

3. Oxygenated fuels/winter blends may contain some ethanol or methanol as well. Oxygenation does not exceed 10% however or it must be marked. As someone stated, mixing or blending is more expensive than straight gasoline, but they have to do it.

I'm suggesting that the ethanol in the gasoline is not the cause of knocks (pinging). Both ethanol and methanol have very high octane ratings and should suppress knocking over former antiknock agents. It was the better antiknock agent in the Thirties and it still is today. Indy cars run straight methanol and produce >800hp out of a 3.8l engine. They're not pulling timing or boost, don't ya agree?

Lastly, carbon build-up can cause knocking. I know my car never has carbon build-up but the Marauder probably does. It gets started on cold Florida mornings and warms up for a minute before being driven three miles and shut down for nine hours. It has the same regimen coming home. I have it "Motorvac'd" about once a year to clean the injectors and de-carbon the valves and combustion chambers. The difference is immediate - before I leave the parking lot of the shop - and becomes more evident for several days. If you want to read about it -
http://www.motorvac.com/

Hope that answers more questions than it raises!

J

[Local Boy]

^^^ That's good information...Thanks...

We have had 10% E for awile now, here in the islands.I agree with the above statement...It does have more octane, but heres the sticky point....

All the gas, nation wide, is rated at a specific octane level, at a specific temprature. Here in Hawaii, they measure at 86*F, for octane level, because that's the average temp. at time of sale...We all know that fuel changes with temp...Check to see at what temps. your fuel is being measured at...I believe the problem is when they measure for octane, say around 40*F, and you buy it at 70*F, you are actually getting less gas and ripped off, and may have "pinging" as a result...That's how gas stations rip us off!!!

Hence, to see if you need to re-tune...look at the difference between the measuring temp, and the temp. at time of sale (to you)...If the difference is more than 10* degrees...your fuel companies are skimming off the top (rip off)...More importantly, the octane will be less @ 1 point...IMHO...
ALOHA

[MarauderTJA]

In SWF I have not seen any ethanol at the pumps yet. Pinging obviously is a major concern. Maybe time to throw a can of octane boost with every fill up for safety if and when it becomes a standard at the pumps:dunno:. Necessary or not it is a concern to me.

[MarauderTJA]

Although Paul and Duhtroll have provided facts for you, and the corvette guy has great info as well, let me interject and try to clarify some of that info:
1. Ethanol is currently used throughout the U.S. in motor fuels as an antiknock agent. Tetraethyl Lead replaced ethanol for this purpose in the early 1930's. It was lobbied that the lead was cheaper. We poisoned the planet with gaseous Pb for almost half a century. The lead was replaced with MTBE (Don't remember what that stands for.). MTBE is a carcinogen and has been removed from gasoline completely throughout this country (U.S.) for over one year now. We continued to poison the planet with it until then. Ethanol replaces the MTBE in our motorfuels - we have come full circle. Although ethanol has its downfalls or detriments, the benefits greatly outweigh them.

2. Motorfuels containing 10% or greater ethanol (or 5% methanol for that matter) must be marked as such. As I stated before, there is ethanol in all our fuels. Only the ones with a full 10% or greater are marked. Your local gas station may have fuel containing 9.8% ethanol and you don't know it.

3. Oxygenated fuels/winter blends may contain some ethanol or methanol as well. Oxygenation does not exceed 10% however or it must be marked. As someone stated, mixing or blending is more expensive than straight gasoline, but they have to do it.

I'm suggesting that the ethanol in the gasoline is not the cause of knocks (pinging). Both ethanol and methanol have very high octane ratings and should suppress knocking over former antiknock agents. It was the better antiknock agent in the Thirties and it still is today. Indy cars run straight methanol and produce >800hp out of a 3.8l engine. They're not pulling timing or boost, don't ya agree?

Lastly, carbon build-up can cause knocking. I know my car never has carbon build-up but the Marauder probably does. It gets started on cold Florida mornings and warms up for a minute before being driven three miles and shut down for nine hours. It has the same regimen coming home. I have it "Motorvac'd" about once a year to clean the injectors and de-carbon the valves and combustion chambers. The difference is immediate - before I leave the parking lot of the shop - and becomes more evident for several days. If you want to read about it -
http://www.motorvac.com/

Hope that answers more questions than it raises!

J

Great information J.......thanks for update and history lesson. Interesting to say the least. I'll check that out here in Italy and see if it is here. One thing, gas here is about $6.80 per gallon for regular (sold per liter). No matter what we think about high gas prices, we are luckyfor prices we are paying in the U.S. compared to here:eek:.

[2,4shofast]

Tell me about it I lived there for 4 years.... If you think the price of gas is high, look into insurance rates:eek:

[MarauderTJA]

Tell me about it I lived there for 4 years.... If you think the price of gas is high, look into insurance rates:eek:

I can just imagine. But no matter what I could not drive one of these tiny econo boxes where the engines are measured by CC's:shake:. I have seen several of teh Smart Cars here. I would rather ride my Harley than drive in one of those little sardine cans. Probably have a better chance in an accident as well.

[2,4shofast]

I had my 97 SHO while I was there and most of my friends had their Stangs over there. Most Italian's loved the American cars so it was a lot of fun when we would all get together and cruise or go to car shows. You should take a run over to the coast before you leave, I heard its still a little cold but the scenery is very good.:cool:

If you head up north towards Aviano and see a silver Escort Cosworth let me know...