Eibach springs

[Dennis Reinhart]

I have installed these on Keith's car I did this and put the 17" Cobra R's on there in my opinion it ruined the ride of the car, but I stayed open minded till I recently reinstalled the 18" OEM tires and wheels, I still feel it ruins the ride, the car bounces way to much I feel this can be addressed but I am not sure Eibach will. I feel a different spring might help so I am looking around to see if I can get some one to make them for us, also when you lower the car it throws out the caster and camber, and right now the car is at its Max camber adjustment, and is still slightly negative this will cause tire wear so this is my feed back, I personally will not install these on my car, for those of you that have them on order from me they are on a 3/4 week back order.

[schuvwj]

You know it sure is refreshing to here someone tell it like it is!
Hats off to Dennis and his research on these springs. I've heard a lot of people rave about these front Eibach springs and some did not.
It's great to here the REAL facts about these springs!
Great Job Dennis!

[MI2QWK4U]

I was one of the first to install them, and I maintain that it didnt kill the ride that badly. My wife has driven in mine and a stock one back to back and other than the occasional bounce, which arent rough at all, she couldnt tell a whole lot of difference. Where i think the improvement is lies in the handling. The car handles much better with a lower center of gravity giving much less body roll. I drive a two lane blacktop road every day, the section I drive is full of nice curves, and I could tell the difference the day I installed them. I could take the road faster with less roll and it felt real good. Its a matter of taste and opinion. My only concern was the Negative Camber issue Dennis mentioned. Mine is maxed out on camber and is still into the negative camber, but not far from the factory specs if I read them right.

And no offense to Schuvwj, Myself and the others that installed the eibach springs were telling it like it is. I dont quite understand why the inference is that we weren't telling it like it is. The real facts are that some of us have had these springs on their cars for a month or two now. As for adjusting the camber/caster, you will have to do that with any springs you install other than factory. I guess what it comes down to is WHO is telling it like it is and giving the facts. My "research" came from some seat of your pants driving to compare the change in the ride and handling of the car. I took time to answer emails, private messages, requests for pictures or results when I installed them, as well as try to get a better price on them for our members and brought them to the open house for Sarge. I think its fine to have an opinion, but to be insulting to a members opinions and observations by indicating they are not true or correct isn't what this forum is all about. The information and observations myself and others posted are no less factual than anyone elses. In fact, several guys drove my car at the open house and loved the feel. I for one welcome and look forward to EVERYONE'S opinions and ideas, that is why I joined this forum, to take something away I can use, as well as give back something in return. I hope some appreciate the input.
Dave

[Logan]

Dave, you're misreading him. It wasn't his intent to say you weren't telling anything but the truth. His intent was to say it's nice to hear the skinny on them from a vendors perspective.

No one is insulting you or inferring you're less than honest, take 'er easy.

Everyone appreciates the effort you've gone to with the Eibach's, myself included. I've got a set on order for myself and will soon enough chuck my opinion into the ring too.... :)

[Dennis Reinhart]

I agree I am selling them but again I don't sell any thing with out testing them and I have done exactly that and I have given my opinion, now know one can come back and say I failed to mention any of the issues involved in the sale of this product and I agree with Logan you misinterpreted Bill's comment, I never meant to slam EIbach but again I spent over an hour on hold with the company trying to become a distributor, they blew me completely off I thought the customer service was poor, so again I have no warm fuzzy feeling for their customer service but that is separate from their product, my opinion is the spring could be stiffer, it would not bounce as much. I also have heard these springs sag with age this is just what I have been told, so again I am just passing info not bashing a product isn't that what this club is for. To share information.

[schuvwj]

Originally posted by MI2QWK4U
I was one of the first to install them, and I maintain that it didnt kill the ride that badly. My wife has driven in mine and a stock one back to back and other than the occasional bounce, which arent rough at all, she couldnt tell a whole lot of difference. Where i think the improvement is lies in the handling. The car handles much better with a lower center of gravity giving much less body roll. I drive a two lane blacktop road every day, the section I drive is full of nice curves, and I could tell the difference the day I installed them. I could take the road faster with less roll and it felt real good. Its a matter of taste and opinion. My only concern was the Negative Camber issue Dennis mentioned. Mine is maxed out on camber and is still into the negative camber, but not far from the factory specs if I read them right.

And no offense to Schuvwj, Myself and the others that installed the eibach springs were telling it like it is. I dont quite understand why the inference is that we weren't telling it like it is. The real facts are that some of us have had these springs on their cars for a month or two now. As for adjusting the camber/caster, you will have to do that with any springs you install other than factory. I guess what it comes down to is WHO is telling it like it is and giving the facts. My "research" came from some seat of your pants driving to compare the change in the ride and handling of the car. I took time to answer emails, private messages, requests for pictures or results when I installed them, as well as try to get a better price on them for our members and brought them to the open house for Sarge. I think its fine to have an opinion, but to be insulting to a members opinions and observations by indicating they are not true or correct isn't what this forum is all about. The information and observations myself and others posted are no less factual than anyone elses. In fact, several guys drove my car at the open house and loved the feel. I for one welcome and look forward to EVERYONE'S opinions and ideas, that is why I joined this forum, to take something away I can use, as well as give back something in return. I hope some appreciate the input.
Dave

Dave I am sorry if I have in some way offended you. It was not my intent.

I was only giving Dennis Reinhart a pat on the back for giving us his feedback about these springs. I and many other MM owners trust Dennis comments and ideas on how we can make our MM’s look and perform better. I feel Dennis was just stating what he had experienced with this mod.!

If I have made a statement that unintentionally offended you I am sorry!

[MI2QWK4U]

Hell Bill, no need to apologize here. I just took it to heart, I sometimes forget that Dennis and others here may have so much more experience in the engineering or ultra high performance aspect of modifying cars. I would never give a good review to something I really didnt think worked for the car. For me it was the lowest price mod that yielded the most in return. I think it really makes the car look better on just an appearance note, and I honestly could tell the difference in the handling. I will second Dennis's feelings on dealing with Eibach. They flat out refused to take the step and contact anyone I mentioned to them as being a prime outlet for selling the marauder springs as a distributer, ie trilogy, lidio, reinhart,etc. But the engineer I spoke with was very helpful with my questions and the kit. Hooking up with a vendor that is wired in to the marauder community would have been a smart move for them. Oh well..... at the time Eibach was the only game in town and im glad i took a chance.

[MI2QWK4U]

Out of curiousity, what do the others that installed them think of them? There werent many kits to begin with however.....

[Dennis Reinhart]

Originally posted by MI2QWK4U
I will second Dennis's feelings on dealing with Eibach. They flat out refused to take the step and contact anyone I mentioned to them as being a prime outlet for selling the marauder springs as a distributer, ie trilogy, lidio, reinhart,etc. But the engineer I spoke with was very helpful with my questions and the kit.

Well, customer service is what keeps a company going and they are not the only game in town. After several phone calls today I got a call from another company. There engineering department is calling me tomorrow. I am going to send them Keith's OEM springs, to look at. Now its not that I don't like the car lowered, I do it bounces to dam much, if your at high speeds this could be fatal in my opinion, the idea is to lower the car which should improve the cars handling, I can not see that it does, it might on a straight road and smooth cuves but this is not always the case, I feel they should have made the springs stiffer and this would improve the ride and cornering capability, and they should have realized what effect this was going to have on tire wear, especially on the Marauder since we can not rotate tires, negative camber is going to eat the inside tread off.

[Logan]

Hmmmm... Now I'm on the fence... Dang nab it... Logan no like the bouncy bouncy. If anything, I like a nice stiff ride...

[dailydriver]

Is it more or less bouncey then stock. It is my understanding that the Eibach springs are 30% stiffer then stock. I have used their product on several of my previous cars and found them to be a goo combination of ride quality and handling and was about to place an order, but now I am on the fence as well.

[TAF]

Originally posted by MI2QWK4U
Out of curiousity, what do the others that installed them think of them? There werent many kits to begin with however.....

Well...I guess I'll get in here, since I've got about 2,500 clicks under my belt since mine were installed.

Bottom line...The Eibach Springs are FANTASTIC!

No offense meant to Dennis, but I don't understand the "bounce" that is described. I don't have a bounce. What I do have is an incredible feel for the road. The Eibach Springs and Dennis' sway bar makes this car handle like a sports car. Tight, responsive and true. Do you lose the Grand Marquis float? Youbetcha! But...then again, I thought I bought a high performance car, not a couch on wheels.

About 30 minutes ago, I took a Marauder with stock suspension for a drive. I wouldn't go back for anything. Talk about bounce? I was watching the headlamps on the road in the stocker (suspensionwise that is...no offense marauderman...your car is NOT a stocker in any other way)...the nose was bouncing going down the road. Got in my car...drove the same road back to my hotel...no bounce in the headlights. Now...you do you feel the texture of road more...but it's a MUCH more solid feel that frankly I like. Brake hard...there is NO "nose-dive"...just solid as a rock. Harsh? No...don't picture it as "truck-like".

But then again...over the last year, I've seen posts regarding the "harshness" of the stock ride. It's NOT your father's Grand Marquis...it completes the handling package that experts (not Todd Alan Fisher) have said is impressive. Read Kenny Brown's "Builder's Notes" on his site.

Anyone that is "on the fence"...my keys are yours in 30 days in Ennis...or if you are in the Atlanta area...you can have them this Saturday.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Well, Todd no offense taken but Keith's car is not right, and all was done were the Springs if it was not for the fact that other members have also stated the fact about the bouncing, I would maybe think I got a bad set, But it screws up the alignment, have you had your car aligned?? and others have confirmed my concern about the bounce so its what ever floats your boat. Some people can not Stand Vodka I love it, I hate what these springs do for the car I am driving, I will never do it to mine unless I can see, a difference maybe with another spring so I will wait and see, maybe you have a first run set of springs, I have no idea, I know there on national back order, again this is what's great about this club, lets wait and see what other members have to say as more have this done. I will be glad for any one to take a drive in Kieth's car this weekend in Tampa.

Dennis

[TAF]

Originally posted by Dennis Reinhart
But it screws up the alignment, have you had your car aligned??

Dennis...yes, it was aligned at TeamFord. Both Scott and Jeff did the alignment with me sitting in the car on the rack. You know and respect both of those guys, I know. And, you also know the state-of-the-art equipment they have there.

To each his own...is right. And I'm diggin the handling of my Marauder.

[Dennis Reinhart]

I agree I will drive your car next month when I am there, its to each his own, we would not be friends if we were not honest and felt we could not express our opinions, you can buy at Papadoes:D and I want a Stoleys seabreeze chilled straight up:P

[TAF]

Originally posted by Dennis Reinhart
I agree I will drive your car next month when I am there, its to each his own, we would not be friends if we were not honest and felt we could not express our opinions, you can buy at Papadoes:D and I want a Stoleys seabreeze chilled straight up:P

Your on...my friend!

[cyclone03]

Dennis,
Kieths car has the Vortex on it right?
Any chance the added weight is effecting the ride?
I know it's only about 40lbs.
Also I've drive on those FL highways all concrete and very uneven.

[MI2QWK4U]

I think Texas will be a great time to compare things with each other. I agree with Todd, I drove a buddy's stock marauder and could tell the difference right away, and wouldnt go back to stock. That doesnt mean I wouldnt compare another brand if someone had them installed.

[LCpl Retired]

hmmm...Great that this thread is running Right Now...as my car is at the dealer Right Now .....with the stage one kit as well as the swaybar and springs to be installed....all in the trunk..

Ok what should I do?..would you guys who put them in do it again? I also understood from earlier threads the installation was fairly complex..what sort of labor cost is it to put them in..run them for a month or two..then remove them if I don't like it?

I was worried they would be Too stiff (usually shorter=stiffer)...now it sounds like that is not the issue...more of the stock shock not keeping up with the new spring rate?..like somehow maybe some As got a different shock production run (with a marginally higher rate) than Bs somehow that is able to compensate for the different rate?...

I like the ride of the car now, but was looking for less nose dive under braking and a little tighter overall ride.

I have the springs and they are at the dealer so I guess I will give them a try unless I hear a definate NO out here..perhaps they will work with my application....

Incidently the car is at Tasca in Providence, RI. I took it there after seeing a mid 60s "Tasca" Galaxy or something in a magazine. The name rang a bell, so I just stopped in and asked if there was a relation. Sure enough, they used to put together stuff like Yenko, and, as I discovered, they still do. They just finished a 600hp blower mustang, and were working on a big block cobra replica when I was there. They have a service writer and a few techs who handle aftermarket/ high performance and everyone I talked too seemed knowledgeable and enthusiastic. I don't have the car back yet..but so far so good!!

Bill

[Logan]

Weeeeeeeeeee, I'm going to be a busy guy driving everyone's cars in Ennis.... :)

At the end of it, I should have amassed all the necessary knowledge to build an Uber Marauder! Mmooooooahahhahahaha!!!

[martyo]

I might as well check in this issue: I did the Eibach's a few weeks ago. I am very happy with the upgrade, but it is NOT for everyone. This is one of those things which is dependent on your taste. In my opinion, the ride is harder and firmer but not harsh. I feel like I have used one of the toughest proving grounds: the streets of New York City.

The car handles better in corners (my corner speeds are much quicker). On braking the nose dive is gone (and I have DR's new rotors/carbon fiber calipers on all four corners).

The install is definitely tricky from all I have talked to. Figure on a few hours of labor (about three) at whatever the local labor rate is.

Anyone who wants to drive my car and get a feel for the set up I have is welcome to do so. I'll be in Marauderville on 9/18 in the evening.

Note to Logan: No driving my car unless I get my PM's back! Just kidding, I'll let you drive my car anyway!!

[studio460]

Hmmmm . . . I was always puzzled by Dennis' comment that the Eibachs were too "bouncy" and his less than favorable report initially scared me away from the Eibachs. At first, I took that to mean "floaty" or rather more accurately, overly "rebounding" in a 'bouncy' way--which of course is the exact opposite of what I want. In retrospect (hopefully) I simply misinterpeted Dennis' one-word critique of the springs. If in fact he meant something more like "bumpy," well, that I would take to mean "tighter" and more road-responsive, which to me would mean the Eibachs are doing something I very much would prefer over the stock springs. I really don't care about ride quality (I mean, as long as it doesn't ride like a pick-up truck), and so I will always be willing to sacrifice ride for control. What I really care about is handling and "tightness" of the steering/suspension package.

Since several of you have already bought and loved the Eibachs, I think I'm going ahead with the purchase. I just ordered Dennis' sway bar from Logan's new online store (great price--thanks, Dennis!), so I'll be excited to have them both on as soon as possible. Dennis--the more suspension stuff you come out with, the more I'll want to buy! I would REALLY love to compare skidpad G-force tests before and after, but I don't have an accelerometer yet (plus I have no idea how you actually perform a skidpad test). Thanks for all your helpful comments.

[Logan]

I have the swaybar on and it really tightens up the side to side movement on the rear end. I have the eibach's in my garage, but haven't had a chance to get them on yet... :)

[Zack]

If the rear end is improperly adjusted (too low) it produces a HORRIBLE ride. this was the caes with my car for a few weeks and I just blamed it on the springs. When I looked back there, I found the rubber bumpers on the rear axle were pounding against the frame on a good bump. I raised the car 3/4" of an inch and problem solved, the car rides awesome.

[DetGeno]

Is the swaybar to help understeer or oversteer? Lil confused? I thought this big car in the corners would have the rear end cut loose but won't the rear swaybar stiffen up more of the rear end to cut loose easier?

[studio460]

Todd/Dennis:

Did you two have a chance at Ennis to compare rides both with and without the Eibachs? Did ANYONE have a chance to compare the Eibachs vs. stock springs in Ennis? I can't wait to get these (swaybar's already on its way), but Dennis said they were too "bouncy." In Dennis' second post, he states, ". . . my opinion is the [Eibach] spring could be stiffer." Do others who have the Eibachs already installed feel like they're NOT as "stiff" as the stock springs? What am I missing here? I don't care if I feel the paint on the asphalt, as long as it handles better! ANY comments would be MOST welcome! Thanks.

[TAF]

Shooter,

SEVERAL people took the keys of my car at Marauderville. I think it's best if you ask them directly. Feel free to pose your questions here or in PMs to: Rauder, BigDogJim, LML, bnrparker...just to name a few. They can probably give you the most complete, unbiased opinions.

Also...if there is ANYONE still on the fence about tuning from Dennis...ask them all about my firm shifts which make the car feel like a stick...you can even pose this one to Martyo, as well.

[martyo]

Originally posted by TAF
Also...if there is ANYONE still on the fence about tuning from Dennis...ask them all about my firm shifts which make the car feel like a stick...you can even pose this one to Martyo, as well.

Ummmm...now where did I put that time slip where I smoked Todd? Hmmmm, I know its around here somewhere....

[TAF]

Originally posted by martyo
Ummmm...now where did I put that time slip where I smoked Todd? Hmmmm, I know its around here somewhere....

Don't you remember...you can't figure out how to scan it and post it (even though you had 3 folks from your staff dedicated to it for a whole day).

Let's see here..... 4 tenths of a second...same amount of time your G/F says you take....:D

You have the Torque Convertor, headers X-pipe, had 94 octane gas in the car....AND I outweigh you by 150 pounds....is that enough for excuses?

[martyo]

Originally posted by TAF
AND I outweigh you by 150 pounds....is that enough for excuses?

Okay Orca, you win!!

:D

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by DetGeno
Is the swaybar to help understeer or oversteer? Lil confused? I thought this big car in the corners would have the rear end cut loose but won't the rear swaybar stiffen up more of the rear end to cut loose easier?

Geno:

A stiffer rear swaybar will increase oversteer, which in my mind is a good thing...it feels more natural than understeer and is easier to anticipate and control (unless it's excessive)...Dennis's upgraded swaybar is not excessive for this car, it's what the factory SHOULD have installed. (I think Dennis and Steve Babcock must have been separated at birth... :D !)

Addco (http://www.addco.net/install.shtml) has some good info on their site...check it out.

[studio460]

Does anyone know if Eibach ever got their shipment in? Does anyone have the Marauder springs in stock yet? Thanks.

[Logan]

Yes, Eibach filled their backorder. I go my springs just prior to Ennis and I was on that backorder....

[Marauderer]

Question on the Spring Kit. I was wondering if the guys with SC's can attribute any of their lost traction to having a stiffer front end (in addition to the 10 million HP gain :) )? I would tend to think so to a very small degree, but if you are lower the rear as well, you are also softening the rearend a little which may compensate for the stiffer front? Kind of a desktop racer question I know, was just wondering what you guys thought.

[studio460]

I stole this post from an Audi forum. It was simple and well written. I always get this backwards myself. Any comments, additions, or corrections welcome.

SUBJECT: UNDERSTEER/OVERSTEER DEFINITION

"OK, I'm sick of trying to remember what someone told me once. What is the definition of oversteer and understeer?" --HUW

"Understeer means the front tires are slipping more than the rears. Oversteer means the rear tires are slipping more than the fronts. Neutral would be if your steering input was just enough to follow the arc of the turning radius. Understeer is considered a "safer" condition for most drivers since it is a stable condition--as you initiate your turn by steering toward the center of the arc, the fronts start to slide. As you dial in some more steering toward the center of the arc, etc. Oversteer is an unstable condition--as you initiate your turn by steering toward the center of the arc, the rears start to slide. You counteract by steering away from the center of the arc, until the steady state is reached, but not too far, or you will initiate a new turn in the opposite direction, and not too late, or you have already spun. The advantage to oversteer is that you are better set up to apply power upon exiting the turn. Plus, it feels great.

"In general, RWDs tend to (or can be induced to) oversteer while FWDs are primarily understeer. This is an oversimplification since this feature can be affected by weight distribution, engine power (and its distribution in AWD/4WD), weight transfer, suspension setup, coefficients of friction at the contact patches, steering input, etc."

--Frank J. Bauer

Although, I do tend to agree with RF. I'm USED to the rear wheels fishtailing out from all the cars I've owned, so perhaps I'm more experienced with this kind of correction? I used to steal my mom's Porche 914--it handled real nice, but I don't remember the steering bias--are Porches the cars known for notorious understeer? Anyway, I LOVE my new swaybar action and CAN'T WAIT to get the Eibachs ordered/installed!

[sailsmen]

Porsches are known for over steer, the 911 engine stciks out the back causeing a pendulem effect.

The 914 was a midengine car, the engine flipped around from a 911.

I have owned several including a 914 I completely modded, handled like a go cart, lots of fun! Had a lot of luck with the ladies with those cars, but htat is another story.