Performance results Stock vs Superchip

[Kenny's car]

I struck a deal with PRCHRMAN, to test the Superchip perforrmance against the Marauder stock program. He kindly loaned me his GTECH for this excercise, so all numbers were obtained using the GTECH Pro Performance meter. The environment was as follows:
Temp 83 deg
RH 48%
Dew Pt 72 Deg
BP 30.03+

I weighed the car at a local truckstop (the GETECH requires a weight factor for HP Calculation), the recorded weight with 1/2 tank fuel including driver was 4470lbs.
The following numbers represent leaving the line from a hot-brake of 2000rpm (I got the best results there)
The car is stock (Gears, Wheels, Tires, exhaust, intake, air filter, stat, plugs, all stock) car has 5225miles on odometer. B model.

the results are:

Stock Program, 0-60=7.5sec (shift manually at 5500 rpm), 7.8sec (in drive)

1/4mile 15.96 sec @ 96.1mph, worst 1/4mile was 16.01

Horsepower= 228 RWHP (as calculated by the GTECH)
back to back runs were very consistant in stock mode.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Superchip, 0-60=6.8 sec (shift at 5500 rpm), 6.9 (in drive) worst 0-60=7.1 (in drive)

1/4mile 15.32sec@96.8mph (shift at 5500 rpm) 15.34sec@96.7mph (in drive, shift auto at 6500rpm) Worst 1/4mile was 15.45@96.0mph.

Horsepower=279 RWHP (as calculated by GTECH) Worst HP=275.

All timing was done on a level stretch of relatively unused highway early his morning. No cooldowns were done between runs, so the time could probably be improved, buut I was trying for consistant conditions between stock and superchip.

I hope this helps,

[LincMercLover]

Considering I ran a 15.2 and would have gotten a 15 flat (if I hadn't messed up) when the car had 7000 miles on the odo, I now lost interest in that g-tech thing-a-ma-bob...

[BillyGman]

that's funny cuz I also have the "G-Tech" GPS device, and I got a 15.2 ET when my Marauder was bone stock. But I have a 300A. Excuse me if it's old news, but can it be that the 300A's are that much faster than the 300B's? BTW, my test was done w/a half tank of gas as well......and let me also add that the three differnt gear ratios that I've tried didn't make one bit of differnce at all in the quartermile. Only the chip did(a .50 sec reduction in the ET).....something prevents these cars from taking advantage of the gears, and nobody has been able to answer me on that(must be the crummy computer.....I guess it's made by "Big Brother" or something...they won't allow us to go that much faster unless we have the $$$ to spend on a major mod like a S/Cer:rolleyes: )........

[BillyGman]

you must type faster than me........the magazine article that I've read published track results of a 15.2 ET....so I still think the G-Tech thing is accurate, since that's what I git when the car was stock.......

[Smokie]

I don't remember who the fellow was but I am sure we have a member that ran 14.7xx bone stock and several others that were under 15 stock, this was a while back and I believe the cars were 300a's.

[Kenny's car]

My feeling is that my ET would be better on a strip probably in the mid to low 15's stock and high 14's with the programming mod IMHO. I really dont understand why Billy's gears dont provide an ET improvement, they normally provide the single biggest ET gain, unless there is a rev limter or timing retard (knock?) or something like that. The GTECH uses an accelerometer to calculate speed/HP/-1/4mi time, but it should be accurate for back to back comparisons stock to program mod. I am more than happy with the indicated 51 HP gain in any case.

[Smokie]

Kenny. I have a feeling that those measuring devices are better at documenting a change than they are at measuring actual elapsed time. Your testing showed without any doubt that your car got stronger and quicker and I have a feeling your car will do the 1/4 under 15. :D

[Marauderer]

I have the Gtech Competition pro and get consistent ¼ mile runs at 15.4 seconds in drive on a bone stock car. Even though this seems to fall right in line with the major magazine test runs as well, I use bought it to use as a guage to monitor changes only. The real numbers will come from the track.

[LincMercLover]

Still rather have seen the thing on a REAL dyno and at a REAL track.

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by Kenny's car
I really dont understand why Billy's gears dont provide an ET improvement, they normally provide the single biggest ET gain, unless there is a rev limter or timing retard (knock?) .

Those are some thought provoking statements Kenny. Thanks for your concern. But let me point out two things:

#1. I'm either the only one, or one of only two guys on this board that I know of who has installed the gears BEFORE doing any other modifications. Nearly everyone else on this board does the chip along w/the gears, and so there is no way of any of you knowing which mod actually caused the acceleration to improve(the chip, or the gears). And I'm sure that I'm definately the only one here who has installed the gears w/out other mods at first who has also tested my ET's before and after w/the G-Tech device. So I can definately and accurately say that it was the chip and NOT the gears that gave me the performance gain. So I don't think that anyone else can say that the gears changed the way their car accelerates for certain, since that is merely guess work on their part, and it's merely what they tell themselves because it's what they want to believe. I wanted to believe it too, and I did believe it until I tried it.

#2. I also have installed the cooler thermostat from Dennis, and the plugs that he sells, and I use nothing but 93 octane gasoline, so I don't see any way that my car is pinging or knocking if nobody else's is.
My conclusion from all of this is, that we're wasting our money by doing the gear change if we're just going w/the stage 1 mods like many guys here do. It's the chip that provides the increase in performance and the gears don't do squat. I don't enjoy telling you that since this is as much a disappointing surprise to me as it is to anyone. But whatever the reason, computer or otherwise, these cars will not allow the gear change to be used to alter the acceleration. So far I'm stumping all the experts who I consult on this one. But unfortunately, those are the facts. Get the chip, and forget about the gears.....

[sailsmen]

I street raced another members Marauder who has the same mods as mine less the 4:10 gears, + the MMX Drive Shaft and Rear Swaybar.

He is very meticulous about his car and it runs well.

At the start he rev'd to 2,000 RPM and I rev'd to 1,000 RPM. He got the jump on me at the start about 1/2 car length.

I beat him by 1/2+ a car length up to 60mph, then we stopped.

I realize every car is different and the amount I beat him by could be just the differences between the cars.

I did the gears and chip at the same time. I did not test my car before the chip and gears.

I have no imperical data on the gears alone. Maybe someone with a Cobra or Mach I has done tests since they have a similar engine.

[BillyGman]

interesting, but IMO half a car length is nuthin. Was his a 300A or B? And what about yours? Maybe that alone can make a small difference such as half a car length. I'm not trying to be argumentative w/you, but just trying to be realistic. If I was convinced that I was only going to acheive half a car length(I mean we're talking maybe 8 feet) by changing the gears, then I wouldn't have bothered because you're not going to even feel or notice such a minor performance increase. So it will not add to your enjoyment of the driving experience IMO...

[BillyGman]

w/out the chip, my car did 15.2 acording to the G-tech device, and w/Dennis Reinhart's chip it did 14.7. So the chip from Dennis gave me a .50 second reduction in my ET, and on top of that, it corrected the speedometer error that the gear change created, and ALSO corrected the shift points that the gear change created. What about your "tuner"?????

[BillyGman]

I guess old Cole didn't have an answer for that one......he left the board after reading that.......maybe he'll come back w/an answer:rolleyes:

[joflewbyu2]

BillyGman, doing gears and not recalibrating the computer/chip throws everything off. at part throttle, the MM shifts by a speed table. at wide open throttle, the MM shifts by a certain rpm (6,000). by installing shorter gears (4.10, 4.30 or 4.56) the MM thinks it is going faster than it actually is and therefor shifts early (15% w/4.10s, 20% w/4.30s, 30%w/4.56s) weather you are at part throttle or wide open throttle. if in a stock MM you shifted at 5,000 rpms, would you get the same time as shifting 6,000 rpm? most likely NOT since you will be falling out of the power range during the shift. this is what is happening BillyGman! BTW, thanks for the jetchip. definately made a difference and I will be using it until the diablosport tuner coming out soon) or superchips tuner has all the programs in it

[BillyGman]

When I installed the 4.10 gears in my car, the exact opposite happened of what you just said. It actually raised the shift points at WOT. It went from about 6000RPM, to 6300 RPM.Until I then installed Dennis's chip which brought it back down in the 6000-6100 RPM area. Furthermore the problem w/your theory,(although I'm sure that you're genuinely trying to be of help) is that if that was the cause of this dilemma, then that still wouldn't explain how my ET's and 0-60MPH times did NOT change when I went from the 4.10 ratio to the 4.56 ratio since I had tested the car w/the chip installed for both of those ratios.......

[Dennis Reinhart]

A G Tech is not a chasis Dyno, so lets see some one do a dyno pull before and dyno pull after and post the results, You will not see a 50 RWHP gain 4:10 gears are installed to improve acceleration not RWHP the car is slugish down low do to 18" wheels and 3:55 gears 4:10's totaly wake the car up, I have never said it was a mandatory but if you want to wake the car up this is the way to go.

[BillyGman]

ever increase HP. I've never said they will, and anyone who thought that they will, doesn't understand how gears will make the car faster. And the Dyno is worthless for telling you what a gear change will do for your car, and you ought to know that Dennis. Gears will increase acceleration (in most cars w/out all this computer crap)and they will do so w/out increasing HP. But bottom line is that the gear change didn't "wake up" my car one bit, and I didn't need the G-tech device to know that. I just used the device to confirm my suspicions. If your car is really that much faster after any MOD( and I don't mean by a mere half a car length) then you'll feel it as soon as you hit the gas pedal and I didn't.

[tetsu]

billy,

why would you expect your ET to change going from 4.10s to 4.56s? The hit in your top end comes into play.

The 4.56s should help your 60ft times not your ET.

You cannot "feel" your 1/4 mile ETs. If you want to maximize the ET you need to get some dyno data on your motor and do the
math with the rest of your drivetrain in terms of a 1/4 mile pull.

Some first semester calculus will fit the bill nicely.

Johnny

[BillyGman]

a gear change doesn't increase HP so the Dyno isn't going to tell you anything in the way of a gear change. I thought I just explained that. Furthermore my 0-60MPH time did NOT increase either when I went from the 4.10's to the 4.56's. So I had that all covered too before I even brought this issue up.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Gee Billy calm Down, all I said was a G TECH is no accuarte way to verify RWHP, I like Super Chips they all know me, but the programer does not give a 51 RWHP gain as this person posted, I have posted verifiable dyno sheetys I could have used a different corection factor to show a larger HP gain, did I, no. I used the standard of the industry. So again I am not here to argue with you or any one else I am only posting what I know as a fact. So you totaly missunderstood what I said.

[BillyGman]

All I know is that your chip did all of the performance increase that I obtained(which was a .50second reduction in the ET which I previously stated). But the gears did squat.

[BillyGman]

yes I agree w/Dennis that the HP measurement of a G-tech device is debateble at best. That's why I've never even bothered to use that option on it for either one of my cars. I just use the ET measurement, the trap speed, and the 0-60 measurement to track my modification changes and the results thereof.

[tetsu]

Billy,

I said 60 ft times not 0-60. Your need to lose the GTech and read a bit about drag racing. Just tossing money at your car doesnt always make the 1/4 mile ET get better.

Also, it's complete crap to talk about "results" without same day timeslips or dyno charts.

Why did you change gears from 4.10s to 4.56s? I don't think you'll gain a tenth by lightening your pocketbook by $450. You should at least have a reason for a mod. Those 4.10s would have already woken up your off the line feel plenty.

Beating anyone over the head with hogwash from a GTech is silly also. IMNSFHO.

Johnny

[BillyGman]

NOT $450 like you've implied, and I did the work myself. Second, the bottom line is when you go from 3.55's to 4.10's or 4.56's you should feel an instant change in how the car accelerates when you hit the gas. Right or wrong? But w/the Marauder you don't. Peroid. I don't know why, but you don't. And you shouldn't need the drag strip or a G-tech device to know that there's a difference if that difference is significant. And yes, I knew that you meant 0-60ft time and NOT 0-60MPH time, but 4.56's should increase both your ET and 0-60MPH times, but definately your 0-60MPH time and it doesn't w/the Marauder.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Then why does the Marauder go from 15's to mid 14's with the stage 1 Billy you are flat out wrong with your statement that the gears do squat that is only true if you dont install the chip, we have gone over this before with out a chip the car will hit the rev limit on the 1/2 upshift the speed limit will come in under 100 mph, so what is your point here, I am lost.

[Mike M]

My car has run a 14.60 with DR chip and gears. I now have underdrive pulleys and plugs. I guarantee a 14.40. Will run it soon. I seem to remeber Fast Fords & Mustang )what ever the mag is called) went a 14.79 in a bone stock MM at E-town here in central Jersey. You guys running in the 15s...?????? are you sure you know which pedal is the gas and which is the brake?

[Glenn]

One thing that no one has commented on is the 50 HP increase recorded by the Gtech. Is this possible?? the average chip HP increases seem to be about 20-25 HP. Am I missing something here?

Also, Kenny I am very interested if your gas mileage changed after the chip install. What is the opinion on gas mileage after the chip install?

[tetsu]

I was quoting $450 as fair price for gears plus labor.

If you already woke it up with 4.10s why bother going to 4.56s unless you had a game plan? Did you expect seat of the pants?

Johnny

[tetsu]

Originally posted by Glenn
One thing that no one has commented on is the 50 HP increase recorded by the Gtech. Is this possible?? the average chip HP increases seem to be about 20-25 HP. Am I missing something here?


No one is going to comment on HP calculations from a GTech. That's alot of hogwash. This motor doesn't have 50hp lost in the fuel tables and loose shifts.

Johnny

[BillyGman]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that I believe that your chip will get the car going .50seconds faster in the quarter w/out the gears. And perhaps some people are in denial here if they argue about that so vigorously unless they try what I have(the gears w/out the chip) or they try the chip w/out the gears. Furthermore Dennis, someome just told me that they called you, and who ever it was that answered the phone said that you will not sell the chip w/out the gears. Why is that????? Let me conclude this battle of denial versus fact by repeating that I have tried the gear change WITHOUT the chip at first and it did nothing to make the car accelerate any better. And no matter how you guys try to twist this issue, there's nothing that's gonna change that unless you try the same thing(the gears w/out the chip) and because you haven't yet claimed that you've done that, then I wouldn't believe you now if you did claim that. I'd simply recognize your intensity to try to prove me wrong. Sounds like you have something to lose. I have nothing to lose therefore, I have no motive for making these statements other than to give people a heads up before they waste their money on the gears. What's your motive? Like I said, I like Dennis's chip and I never once said that it doesn't work. it's the gears that don't do squat in these cars. Why don't you use your energy to find out why rather than defending a falsehood?

[Dennis Reinhart]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Glenn
[B]One thing that no one has commented on is the 50 HP increase recorded by the Gtech. Is this possible??

NO

[BillyGman]

Forget the G-tech's HP rating. And I've previously stated that.

[Kenny's car]

Ok, just for the record, the post I made initially was primarily intended to fufill an obligation I felt when I made a modification that had previously not been widely reported on this site, not as an endorsement of one tuning alternative over another, if it feels good do it!
I live in Fort Smith Arkansas, and I dont have a Superflow, Heenan Froude Absorber, or any other sort of Dyno at my disposal, nor do I feel disposed to drive over 100 miles to a dragstrip. As for how accurate the RWHP from the GTECH is , well you dont need a Dyno for that, you just need to know the mass of the the vehicle and the rate of acceleration, which you can get from your timeslips.
As for gears, my choice was not to tear into my brand new 35K luxo-cruiser to gear it up...my choice....when I called to buy a chip w/o gears I was told that "they did not sell them that way, I would be dissapointed" so I went elsewhere and got the tuner. I talked to my local speed shop, (the owner used for work for a guy named Shelby), who said "the tuners were about as much bang for the buck as you can get- there aint much magic in tuning a car". I can feel a difference and it suits me, I just wanted to be helpful.

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by tetsu
I was quoting $450 as fair price for gears plus labor.

If you already woke it up with 4.10s why bother going to 4.56s unless you had a game plan? Did you expect seat of the pants?

Johnny

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that this is a sincere question on your part. Therefore I'll give you an answer. I didn't "wake the car up" by installing the 4.10 gears. And I've stated that in this thread atleast twice. So you must not be reading my entire posts. The gear change did nothing and I wanted to feel something. So that's why I decided to go 4.56's because I wanted to persist because I was disappointed(and still am) and I wasn't satified in giving up at that point.

[Marauderer]

You did nothing wrong and the info was appreciated. These things are never intentional, but they do seem to go wrong on a regular basis.

[Kenny's car]

Sorry, if my last post sounded like a rant.
As for the fule economy question, The mileage has went down from about 21 on the highway to about 18, since using the tuner. I was a little dissapointed in that because I assumed a timing increase would help the efficiency.

[LincMercLover]

I think this one's done...