High fidelity speakers.

[Aren Jay]

I'm looking for some speakers that will play into the 50,000Hz to 100,000Hz range. Does anyone make this?

[Pops]

I dont know if they make them. But iI do know that humans can not hear that high!

[magindat]

Human hearing quits statistically at about 20,000 hz. A few can hear slightly higher up to about 23,000 hz.

You can buy piezo electric tweeters that will ply upward of 60,000. However, you would have to build an oscillatory circuit to drive them and an amp to play them. No musical program will contain these frequencies and I know of no audio amplifier with a bandwidth exceeding 30,000 hz.

What the hell do you want this for, anyways? Torturing cockroaches?

[magindat]

30kHz is the highest I can find. John can get them (even if he doesn't know it!)

BTW, getting high frequency DOES NOT mean high fidelity. The highest frequency decent brand tweeter I can find is an accordion ribbon tweeter. They go for about 500 or so each and that's as a COMPONENT - no crossover, no case, no nothing!

[magindat]

Found one at 40kHz - John can get. BIG MONEY! Again a component.

[rvaldez1]

What would be the purpose of getting a speaker with frequency that high??? I dont think there would be any musical use.

[magindat]

What would be the purpose of getting a speaker with frequency that high??? I dont think there would be any musical use.
No musical purpose nor musical meterial I can think of.

[Pops]

It would keeep the dogs away that are watching the helicopter!

[Aren Jay]

Sony makes a SACD unit that goes up that high, or higher.

I find that SACD's sound much clearer than CD's. I have up to 80KHz headphones and they sound better than my 20KHz speakers. But just a little bit.

CD always sound fuzzy to me, SACD's are so much better. Too bad there is such a limited selection when it comes to SACD disc's available, but there are a few good CD's around.

I am still waiting for some money so I can upgrade to a SACD Sony XAV-W1 Headunit with NAV DVD etc... but I would like to get some speakers that can handle the signal. I suppose 25-30K speakers would be fine. I like detail sound more so than volume.

[glassman99]

Be wary of advertised specs. I am familiar with home audio gear, not mobile stuff BUT if you spend maybe $60,000 you can get an amplifier that has a frequency response of 15Hz to 150kHz at -3dB. $35,000 will get you the preamp that specs at .2Hz -200kHz +0,-3dB but all is moot when you get a CD player at $33,000+ that will only spec at 10Hz - 20kHz +1,-1dB. Speakers in the $175,000 range have a frequency response of 10Hz - 35kHz +1,-1dB. All of the above components are not the most expensive by a long shot but are considered at the upper tier of high fidelity. You could not put this equipment in a 3/4 ton pickup bed let alone an automobile You will never get automotive speakers that offer true 100kHz performance nor is there, (and I am going out on a limb here) any automobile electronic package that will come close to playing above maybe 25kHz at anything that resembles flat. As others have already said, most humans cannot hear 20kHz, but there are a few that can distinguish frequencies slightly above that. Audition speakers and select what you like, regardless of published "specs" as these specs change significantly in different automobiles and can vary by placement within the same automobile.

[Windsor58]

Also, keep in mind that the older you get the less high up you can hear. If you spend a lot on something that does go up high, in a few years, you won't be able to hear the difference.
I'm old, so I know...

[Aren Jay]

Funny thing is Sony stuff is cheap, compared to the Audiophile stuff anyway.

But SACD does sound better even down under 20K than CD's.

[Windsor58]

I've never heard one of those. The way I am, I better not go listen to one, or it'll cost me money. That's how I got my 03 Cobra vert and my MM. I went and drove them. Now the Cobra just sits in the garage, eating up insurance budget...

[Aren Jay]

http://www.sonymusic.com/sacd/

[GreekGod]

Mine goes to 11...

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/Eleven.jpg

[magindat]

Glassman makes the best point. I didn't realize this was for your car!!!!

There are so many reflections and absorptions in a car, spec mean next to nothing. This is a time when you trust advice and experience.

Go with the new Pioneer Premier components John likes and be happy!

For a slightly easier install go with the new basalt cone pioneers.

[Pops]

Glassman makes the best point. I didn't realize this was for your car!!!!

There are so many reflections and absorptions in a car, spec mean next to nothing. This is a time when you trust advice and experience.

Go with the new Pioneer Premier components John likes and be happy!

For a slightly easier install go with the new basalt cone pioneers.

These babys have a lot of highs. Still need to use a high quality amp like the Premie 4 channel that is hand built. Or use the XTANT 4 channel, both of these amps retail for 1500.00.

[rvaldez1]

Glassman makes the best point. I didn't realize this was for your car!!!!

There are so many reflections and absorptions in a car, spec mean next to nothing. This is a time when you trust advice and experience.

Go with the new Pioneer Premier components John likes and be happy!

For a slightly easier install go with the new basalt cone pioneers.

I would agree...for a very long time, I did not want to give in to the whole placement and material of the tweeters you guys were reccommending.

I ended up getting a set of premier silk tweeter and 4 premier 6x8s (2way). I flush mounted the tweeters on the dash near the windshield, (check my pics). Even with no amplifier, these sound amazing.

[Eric-Blk2004]

Audio equipment is all in the ear.

Everyone has their preference and thats fine. I worked in sales at Circuit City and my brother at Tweeter. Trust me when I say this - more money is not always better.

Audio just like visual is a personal TASTE. Just because something 2000 dollars does not make it "better" per se. For example - I know Focal speakers are one of the best on the market. I understand they produce silk sound and pick up soft subtle notes. They are warmer and sound so realistic its amazing.

However - for a car, and more importantly for digital music I prefer a simple pair of polk momo's. On paper they are not even comparable - but in real life the sound is more - typical on the polks. I can blast them and sure they will distort a little, the sounds are more mashed together. The high's and the mid's blend more then with the focal. But you know what? They sound pretty darn good and I didnt drop a crap ton on speakers.

If your serious about audio then by all means go for it - but remember each brand claims to be the best. Never - ever buy a speaker without listening to them. Several times, different music types and for 15 minutes or more.

Trust me on this I have boughten a ton of speakers - and my brother is a certified audiophile. Buy whatever sounds good to you - and understand its taste not science. The human ear is connected to the brain and we all know those are different from person to person!

[GreekGod]

I have a golden ear! ;)

[Pops]

I have a golden ear! ;)

And a Midas Touch I Hope! :)

[glassman99]

Absolutly agree with Eric and John. Money is not the total judgement. I have auditioned two identical spec amplifiers and both have distinctly different sounds. There are a lot of speakers with identical specs but none sound exactly the same. Its the nuances. Its on how you process the information.
I have seen $250 speakers outperform (in every respect) speaker systems costing thousands. Listen and buy what you think sounds good....to you.

[Aren Jay]

This reminds me of my Dad's $200 Panasonic Record player stereo with huge but cheap speakers which sound very very good. Versus my Small but relatively expensive Jamo speakers which while also sounding very good just can't compare with the cheap Panasonic ones, not with a record anyway.

Thinking about this has given me an idea.

Would one of those Yamaha ex Universal sound bars that have what is in now, 2 main plus 16 mini speakers in a row that simulate various level of full sound very effectively. Would such a system work in a car?

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/pdfs/moreinfo/ysp500.pdf

[magindat]

I have a golden ear! ;)


And a Midas Touch I Hope! :)

In reverse!

[magindat]

This reminds me of my Dad's $200 Panasonic Record player stereo with huge but cheap speakers which sound very very good. Versus my Small but relatively expensive Jamo speakers which while also sounding very good just can't compare with the cheap Panasonic ones, not with a record anyway.

Thinking about this has given me an idea.

Would one of those Yamaha ex Universal sound bars that have what is in now, 2 main plus 16 mini speakers in a row that simulate various level of full sound very effectively. Would such a system work in a car?

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/pdfs/moreinfo/ysp500.pdf

No- too uch reflection int he leather interior.

So far over 100 years of combined expereince has weighed in on this thread. Don't re-invent the wheel.

[Dragcity]

Hey, you could have the kind of 'sound system' I have in my '65 T-Bird. AM Radio, that barely picks up a station and one tinny speaker in the dash.

But the Antenna kicks, it's gotta' be 5 feet long.

[illwood]

I believe that I may have a little insight on what is happening here. . .

We are talking about different but related things here.

First let me address the SACD.
The SACD is an audio disc with about the same data density as a single layer DVD (~4.7Gb). All of that data space is used for music. What is all of that data being used for? Well, regular CD audio is recorded at a sample rate of 44.1kHz notice that this is roughly twice the highest human audible frequency (20kHz). The reason for this is based on digital sampling theory where your Nyquist Frequency is the highest frequency you will sample and it is half of the sampling frequency. The reason for this is because any frequency above your Nyquist Frequency will show up as aliasing (invalid data). Music is not a "digital phenomena" it is analog that is converted to digital. Remember that we are taking analog signal and making it discrete.

http://www.libraryofmath.com/pages/numerical-integration-with-the-midpoint-rule/Images/numerical-integration-with-the-midpoint-rule_gr_15.gif

The bars in the image are the digital representation of the analog red curve. If we increase our sample rate (width of the bars) we get more closely approximate the curve. SACD's use a sample rate of 2822.4kHz (~64x greater than an audio cd). This means that the "bars" are 1/64th the size and they better fit the curve of the music making the music sound "more realistic" with a trade off of a larger file for the same song. Different people have different hearing capabilities so there are people (mostly with damaged hearing) that wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an audio CD and a SACD. Not to mention that there is a limiting factor where no higher sampling rate will give any noticible quality increase. There is a branch of science called "Psychophysics" that deals with the sensory abilities of humans that could probably answer what that limit is.

Now let's look at the 80kHz headphones.
The 80kHz is refering to the frequency response of the transducer (speaker in the headphone). All transducers have a frequency response. This is a measure of their response to a fixed amplitude at varying frequencies. Here is the frequency response for some headphones.

http://www.headwize.com/images/diffuse.gif

Notice that as the frequency increases, the response goes up and down along the curve. These peaks cause the headphones to boost frequencies in those ranges (know how some headphones have more bass or more treble. . .).

High Fidelity audiophile headphones will have a frequency response that is flat where the frequency response more closely resembles a horizontal line at 0dB. The 80kHz probably means that the frequency response drops off past -3dB at 80kHz.

Here is a graph of the frequency respone of a VERY nice headphone amplifier, the Grace m902 ($1600).

http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/406902FIG01.jpg




In summary, we aren't looking at the maximum frequency to be reproduced, but rather the frequency response of the transducer. With that said, cars are probably too noisy an environment to see all of the benefits of such a ridiculous high end system. Besides, don't you like the sound of your engine? ;)

</GEEK>

[magindat]

YES!!! I love it! Nyquist frequency and phsycophysics (aka psychoacoustics) two words I haven't heard in a LONG time!

Mostly because the world of car audio is in fact, as a practical matter, far too noisy, dynamic, and reflective to need or use these concepts.

However, there IS an area of car audio competition the deals with these and many other concepts in order to attempt to make the car's frequency response resemble the M902 graph. It is incredibly expensive and requires time alignment devices and equalized equalizers to accomplish. Then, when you start the engine, everything changes, start moving and different vibrations and harmonics of the car's operation change everything again. It never ends.

So, as a practical matter, take the recommendations already given. The recommendations average all the gives and takes of this theory and hand you a pleasurable listening experience with little or no fuss.

BTW, very nice visual explanation of the SACD! Again, as a practical matter, in a car - an everyday car - it's difficult to tell a difference.

[illwood]

YES!!! I love it! Nyquist frequency and phsycophysics (aka psychoacoustics) two words I haven't heard in a LONG time!

BTW, very nice visual explanation of the SACD! Again, as a practical matter, in a car - an everyday car - it's difficult to tell a difference.
Rich, I'm glad you enjoyed my writeup.

I like to help out with technical info where I can.

[GreekGod]

...Nyquist frequency and phsycophysics (aka psychoacoustics)...It never ends...

Tell me about it!...I dated such a woman...a real dog, too...see picture below...

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Dale/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpghttp://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

[GreekGod]

Tell me about it!...I dated such a woman...a real dog, too...see picture below...

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Dale/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpghttp://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/.jpg

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../showcase/files/2/1/9/0/*****.jpg

[magindat]

Can't use the B word in a post!

Copy and paste link to browser type the B word with a capitol B instead of the *****. K?

[Windsor58]

Thinking about this has given me an idea.

Would one of those Yamaha ex Universal sound bars that have what is in now, 2 main plus 16 mini speakers in a row that simulate various level of full sound very effectively. Would such a system work in a car?

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/pdfs/moreinfo/ysp500.pdf

Reminds me of a guy I worked with back in the early 80s. He was a world reknown engineer and I think he was a genius. He lived in an apartment and in his living room, he had a whole wall covered with a book case. Spread across the shelves (among books) were something like 36 speakers. He bought pretty cheap small speakers (maybe 6 inch round). He then mounted the speakers in the cardboard box they came in and cut a hole in the back of the box based on how it sounded (he ported the boxes by ear). He also adjusted the position (up/down, left/right) of each box on the shelves to get it to sound good to him. He had them all hooked up to one receiver and it really sounded good, especiallly at low volume settings. It seemed like you could hear all the small nuances of the music withoout having to strain to hear it. Yet, it wasn't loud, so the neighbors didn't complain.
It was really amazing to get such great sound out of such cheap speakers. It was all based on his ear, not technology.

+1 to getting what sounds good. If you like it, you can't go wrong.

+1 to trusting Rich and John. These guys know what works best in the MM.

[Black_Noise]

Mine goes to 11...



Awsome spinal tap reference!!

[Pops]

Some of you guys are just plain nuts!

[GreekGod]

Nigel Tufnel (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001302/): The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...

Marty DiBergi (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001661/): Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?

Nigel Tufnel (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001302/): Exactly.

Marty DiBergi (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001661/): Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?

Nigel Tufnel (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001302/): Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?

Marty DiBergi (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001661/): I don't know.

Nigel Tufnel (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001302/): Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

Marty DiBergi (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001661/): Put it up to eleven.

Nigel Tufnel (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001302/): Eleven. Exactly. One louder.

Marty DiBergi (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001661/): Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?

Nigel Tufnel (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/../name/nm0001302/): [pause] These go to eleven..

[ludwigvan968]

Man if I wasn't so awake I would swear I was on AudioAsylum.com, but that is a whole other story.

Yeah, I am an audiophile, specs only tell you so much, trust your ears and others who have ears that lend themselves to your tastes. For my home system I have a very high-end two channel system that cost mucho dinero, however for my car, I basically have a ghetto blaster because for me the car ride is for the driving experience and less so on accurate musical reproduction. But I digress....

Oh yeah, here is a pic of my current system (though I just ordered a Green Rega P3 Turntable)

http://jtlopez.dyndns.org/albums/album457/canon_SD_550_8_14_2007_014.siz ed.jpg