I guess I don't like cars as much as I thought

[Motorhead350]

I didn't want to do it, but yesterday I had my 65 Chevy towed away from me. Not for good, but to have someone do the work and get that thing out of my dads garage for now. I never wanted to pay for labor, but the hours I spend trying to figure this out or lack of help I am getting from anyone unless cash is involved I have decided to let someone do the work for me. I really wanted to build this myself with help from others, but I just learned how much these projects take up your spare time.

The place it's going to will get the engine in correctly and also hook it up for me. I don't know about the wiring, because it takes so long I don't want a labor bill for 1,000s of dollars.

Even the Marauder needs little stuff done, but I have just let it sit. Same with the K5. All the time I would jump on it and get it done to the best of my ability, now if something needs work I just have this "So what?" Attitude. I really think I am losing interest in the hobby. It takes up more time and money than a relationship... or maybe it's because I'm pushing for a better future and all the fun stuff is on hold.

Did anyone experience this at 23??? :confused:

[KillJoy]

I didn't want to do it, but yesterday I had my 65 Chevy towed away from me. Not for good, but to have someone do the work and get that thing out of my dads garage for now. I never wanted to pay for labor, but the hours I spend trying to figure this out or lack of help I am getting from anyone unless cash is involved I have decided to let someone do the work for me. I really wanted to build this myself with help from others, but I just learned how much these projects take up your spare time.

The place it's going to will get the engine in correctly and also hook it up for me. I don't know about the wiring, because it takes so long I don't want a labor bill for 1,000s of dollars.

Even the Marauder needs little stuff done, but I have just let it sit. Same with the K5. All the time I would jump on it and get it done to the best of my ability, now if something needs work I just have this "So what?" Attitude. I really think I am losing interest in the hobby. It takes up more time and money than a relationship... or maybe it's because I'm pushing for a better future and all the fun stuff is on hold.

Did anyone experience this at 23??? :confused:

Welcome to the REAL WORLD.

:rolleyes:

KillJoy

[Zack]

Maybe because you have the attention span of a knat Dominick.

Nothing will ever fix itself if you cant get over being mad for not understanding.

[magindat]

Did anyone experience this at 23??? :confused:


By 23, I was a dad.

Oh, yeah... Try walking away and paying someone else to do THAT!

[KillJoy]

Maybe because you have the attention span of a knat Dominick.

Nothing will ever fix itself if you cant get over being mad for not understanding.


You mean a "gnat"?

:dunno:

KillJoy

[magindat]

Ever notice how it's always we three who dogpile topics like this?!

[RR|Suki]

maybe it's just not for you, that's how it goes sometimes.

[KillJoy]

Ever notice how it's always we three who dogpile topics like this?!


No, however I do find a great humor in the fact that Dominick is *****ing about having to pay to have something done. He ACTUALLY EXPECTED others to come and donate their time to do all of the work that he did not know how to do, or have time to do it in. Also, the fact that he MUST HAVE EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW THIS MINUTE! If he were not so impatient, and reliant on others, perhaps his project would get done, and he WOULD learn a thing or 12 along the way.

I think this is his first "real life" decision he has ever had to make, seeing as how he has stated he gets paid for a job that he does not even show up for.

Must be nice.

:beer:

KillJoy

[Egon Spengler]

I am 26 and am getting kind of sick of going to car shows and stuff... I think it is the whole end of the good seasons thing... take the winter off and you will be ready and raring to go in the spring!

[RR|Suki]

No, however I do find a great humor in the fact that Dominick is *****ing about having to pay to have something done. He ACTUALLY EXPECTED others to come and donate their time to do all of the work that he did not know how to do, or have time to do it in. Also, the fact that he MUST HAVE EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW THIS MINUTE! If he were not so impatient, and reliant on others, perhaps his project would get done, and he WOULD learn a thing or 12 along the way.

I think this is his first "real life" decision he has ever had to make, seeing as how he has stated he gets paid for a job that he does not even show up for.

Must be nice.

:beer:

KillJoy

Wait... where can I sign up for this job :confused:

[CBT]

At 23 I had already moved 5 times, RE-married, bought my first house, had a newborn, was a war vet, and had a Z-28 and a Dodge Daytona. Life was busy (understatement) but I never got tired of working on/tinkering with cars. The day I get bored with cars I won't even know about it, cause I'll be dead. I think you are frustrated, and I'm pretty sure EVERYone her has been there. Chin up, bro.

[O's Fan Rich]

At 23 I was married 5 years, with 2 kids and a third on the way.
I could do my own work on my cars, was building a house, did my own electrical, plumbing, rough carpentry.
I built all the rock walls around my house, landscaping, cleared well over 150 trees to put the house where it was .
I can do almost ANYTHING and I know it!!
Why?
Because I'm not afraid to jump in, grab it and see if I can. If I fail I fail. Then I learn.
I NEVER expect others to do for me. And I don't whine about "I don't get no help"
I look in the mirror and "Yes you can!"
23 is no excuse.
Your uterus is in the way of your progress Dom.....
remove it before you bleed out.....

[CBT]

At 23 I was married 5 years, with 2 kids and a third on the way.
I could do my own work on my cars, was building a house, did my own electrical, plumbing, rough carpentry.
I built all the rock walls around my house, landscaping, cleared well over 150 trees to put the house where it was .
I can do almost ANYTHING and I know it!!
Why?
Because I'm not afraid to jump in, grab it and see if I can. If I fail I fail. Then I learn.
I NEVER expect others to do for me. And I don't whine about "I don't get no help"
I look in the mirror and "Yes you can!"
23 is no excuse.
Your uterus is in the way of your progress Dom.....
remove it before you bleed out.....

Que that punching sound from the Sonic commercials, lol...

[Cheeseheadbob]

Hmm, at 23 I was married, up to my elbows inside nuclear warheads five days a week, living abroad and learning the language, traveling extensively, and LEARNING BY DOING! JHFC, get off the internet and your a$$ and quit whining. The helpless/hapless victim schtik is tiresome.

[ImpalaSlayer]

well said Rich :concur:

now quite *****in and pick up a wrench

[KillJoy]

JHFC, get off the internet and your a$$ and quit whining. The helpless/hapless victim schtik is tiresome.

AGRED!!!

:beer:

KillJoy

[Egon Spengler]

You guys are brutal!

[2ndMDRebel]

Hmm, at 23 I was married, up to my elbows inside nuclear warheads five days a week, living abroad and learning the language, traveling extensively, and LEARNING BY DOING! JHFC, get off the internet and your a$$ and quit whining. The helpless/hapless victim schtik is tiresome.

Nuclear warheads are not exactly what I would call "learn as you go" subject matter...

[justbob]

At 23 i had already owned my first home for 3 years, married, and had every toy known to man in the garage. I worked side by side with only one other mechanic from 17-23. We worked 55 hours a week to keep the garage open for everday people and depended on each other six days a week to show up and do your share of the work. There were no sick days, no snow days, no B.S. I've never liked asking for help because i feel like a pain in the a**. I Don't like to borrow anyone elses tools because thats when they break. Try living by my rules and you will start seeing tools in your garage and your knowledge along with busted knuckles will evolve all by itself.

Sure i've been stuck, pissed, tired, bleeding, and twice i've sledgehammered my project to pure junkyard scrap but thats life and its my done my way. And when you finish you'll have earned the right to say "i did it".

Rest in peace - '78 Camaro and sears lawn mower

[Motorhead350]

seeing as how he has stated he gets paid for a job that he does not even show up for.

Must be nice.

:beer:

KillJoy


Actually I have been off that for months now incase you didn't remember from last time we met. I was even asking to be removed from payroll because all I was spending cash on were the stupid cars and records, when others had families to feed and rent to pay (like a lot of you said at 23) and I don't. So I figured it would be best for everyone that I'd be taken off it and I had to ask for about 2 months too. Seems stupid to refuse free money, but hey I don't derserve it, I haven't "earned" it. Excuse me for putting others in front of me, even those I am not fond of at all.

As far as having people come over, some said they would, but never do. They don't call, give a crap or anything. If it doesn't benefit them no one is interested, that is the bottom line. I guess I found out who my friends are. There have been people that said "I'll be around next weekend." Or "I'll see if I can do it this weekend." I call back and something comes up or they ended up being too tied up to help or the most common one... they don't return the call at all and another weekend of nothing happens. I keep calling back, but I think after about 2 calls it starts to annoy the person and by then I got the message. It's all about the money. Right now I don't have much, if I did I would take it to someone to fix everything that's wrong and have it ready for spring, instead I can only take it over for something I cannot crack. I sware, soon as I say I'll pay, people jump on it like a dropped wallet or a passed out girl at a frat party. I have helped out my gearhead buddies whenever they needed me to and even helped them win money with my Marauder, do you think I said you have to pay me??? No. Did I accept anything that was offered? Quite often I would decline it. Now when I need something does anyone come my way? Nope! They have bills to pay and a job to wake up for. If I say will $100 work? Oh ya they have more time than I do in that case!

This isn't about the 65 Chevy, it's just cars in general.

Ya you guys are right, quit complaining and start doing. The problem is how am I going to do something I don't know how to do? I want to learn, but no one wants to show me. I have waited almost a year to get this truck on the road and it's still in pieces. I had to wait 4 years and 100,000 miles before I was "allowed" to mod my Marauder. You see why I hate waiting?!?!?! When I wait it's always for a very long period of time. I have been waiting for months for help on the truck and guess what no one cares because it doesn't belong to them unless I pay someone. Right now all I can pay for is food and transportation. I cannot think of last time I bought a good or service for "pleasure." It's all been needs, not wants.

I think I might just go away from cars all together for a while.

[CBT]

When nukes got moved on my first ship, we would have to man fire hoses at the mag doors at every level they passed thru, and Marines would escort them, as well as guard all the mag doors where we were. One Marine asked one time "Do you think that hose will do much good if one of them nukes cooks off?" I said "Do you think your M-16 will do much better?" We laughed. It's all you can do in a situation like that.

[Bigdogjim]

For sure cars can get to you, not for everybody, that's the way I see it :)

[Cheeseheadbob]

Touche! Not much room for error on those things. I guess I should have excluded that as part of my "learn by doing" rant. I stand behind the rest of it though...:D
Nuclear warheads are not exactly what I would call "learn as you go" subject matter...

[O's Fan Rich]

Nuclear warheads are not exactly what I would call "learn as you go" subject matter...
The Japenese people may disagree......

[Spectragod]

I have to say, I agree with Dom, you help people, go out of your way for them, only to have them avoid you when you need something. With that said..... I learned most everything I know about cars from the school of hard knocks, I have learned friends are not that at all, they are just aquaintences..... at best. I will still go out of my way to help anyone, but I have learned to expect nothing, ever.

Years ago, my Dad told me that going through life you may possibly have 3 friends that you can count on, I had 3, one passed away earlier this year, so 2 is the what it is now. I thought he was being negative, turns out he was just being truthful.

Now that I got all that negative energy released.... :beer:, here's to you Dom, hope you get your project on track.. There is a great feeling of accomplishment when you finish a project, it's even a better feeling when you complete it against with all the odds stacked against you!!!



Actually I have been off that for months now incase you didn't remember from last time we met. I was even asking to be removed from payroll because all I was spending cash on were the stupid cars and records, when others had families to feed and rent to pay (like a lot of you said at 23) and I don't. So I figured it would be best for everyone that I'd be taken off it and I had to ask for about 2 months too. Seems stupid to refuse free money, but hey I don't derserve it, I haven't "earned" it. Excuse me for putting others in front of me, even those I am not fond of at all.

As far as having people come over, some said they would, but never do. They don't call, give a crap or anything. If it doesn't benefit them no one is interested, that is the bottom line. I guess I found out who my friends are. There have been people that said "I'll be around next weekend." Or "I'll see if I can do it this weekend." I call back and something comes up or they ended up being too tied up to help or the most common one... they don't return the call at all and another weekend of nothing happens. I keep calling back, but I think after about 2 calls it starts to annoy the person and by then I got the message. It's all about the money. Right now I don't have much, if I did I would take it to someone to fix everything that's wrong and have it ready for spring, instead I can only take it over for something I cannot crack. I sware, soon as I say I'll pay, people jump on it like a dropped wallet or a passed out girl at a frat party. I have helped out my gearhead buddies whenever they needed me to and even helped them win money with my Marauder, do you think I said you have to pay me??? No. Did I accept anything that was offered? Quite often I would decline it. Now when I need something does anyone come my way? Nope! They have bills to pay and a job to wake up for. If I say will $100 work? Oh ya they have more time than I do in that case!

This isn't about the 65 Chevy, it's just cars in general.

Ya you guys are right, quit complaining and start doing. The problem is how am I going to do something I don't know how to do? I want to learn, but no one wants to show me. I have waited almost a year to get this truck on the road and it's still in pieces. I had to wait 4 years and 100,000 miles before I was "allowed" to mod my Marauder. You see why I hate waiting?!?!?! When I wait it's always for a very long period of time. I have been waiting for months for help on the truck and guess what no one cares because it doesn't belong to them unless I pay someone. Right now all I can pay for is food and transportation. I cannot think of last time I bought a good or service for "pleasure." It's all been needs, not wants.

I think I might just go away from cars all together for a while.

[Aren Jay]

Things to do when 23.

Note I was in College in England so I might be skewed slightly.

Girls, girls girls or boys as your case may be...nothing wrong with that.
Cars
Money but not nearly paid enough attention to it.
Thinking nothing could go wrong, much more than it did. (I spent my 20's and 21's on crutches.)
Music
Parties
Pubs
and then eventually found relationships are so much better than casual girls.

What would i change now that i'm older?

Party more.
Save money more.
Make more friends.
Plan for future more, if your not already, buy life insurance (an insane amount) $10,000,000.00+ lock yourself in at a low rate.
Will and personal directive.
Death funeral form etc....
Get all that out of the way.

Then do what you really want to do. For me I still wish I took more interest in acting or other forms of show business. Work the business that you want to be in. It doesn't matter if you are successful or not but just being there is the fun part.

Invest longterm, short term and daily. Spent a few years doing it and learn how to make money. Making money is easy!!! once you know how. It is just that 99.9% of people do not know how.

Spend on good things, but only buy a couple things. Focus on one car, one hobby, one house, one way of living. But Party often and stay drug free. Drunk every once in a while no problem. Don't drive when going to parties. Don't have sex when drunk either, sounds good at the time but it is much better sober, and much safer.

Also don't forget to pay attention to the world.

Travel. Doesn't matter where you go but go somewhere, stay a while when there and don't go as a tourist. Do a work experience thing, teach english in Japan. Or China or Thailand. Play in a hotel band in Hong Kong, India, France, Italy. Go places meet people and learn to party. You really do not know how to party yet. You think you do, but you do not.

Travel light.

Learn to live light too. Eventually when you are older you will find your place and your Maruader will be sitting in your driveway. You will have a few prize possessions and millions in the bank.

You will find that one day you will look back and you will have regrets. But if all you regret are good things. So much the better. When you regret not doing things or not being able to do them now...that is much worse.

And know that you will not be able to be who you are now after having done the things you will and want to do. And you will not ever want to.

:hmmm:

Oh yeah. Never ever be afraid to do something that isn't in itself dangerous or stupid. Not saying hi to the pretty girl is the stupid thing, say hi!!! Not going into the pub because you are nervous is the stupid thing, go inside. Not attracting attention to yourself is the stupid thing, let them laugh at you, join in with them and they will laugh with you not at you.

Just don't do stupid things like jump off a bridge or light yourself on fire....

[Breadfan]

I hate to say it but money is coming up too much in this discussion. You say you don't have money to pay people but would just assume if you did, give it to someone to fix all the issues by spring. But, since you have no money, this isn't an option.

What that leaves you are four things:

A library card
An internet connection
Tools
Yourself

That's more than enough to learn. You don't understand wiring, get a book, do some research. Don't know how to do metalwork, get a book, heck try watching TV there are lots of DIY shows nowadays that can give you tips, basics, and motivate you. Ditch the punk "TV sucks" thing and use it as an educational medium as you need or want it.

You don't need money you have two hands a mind and a few tools honestly that's all you need.

Stop whining and grab a wrench.

[Motorhead350]

I have tools, but not $20,000 worth... more like $50.

[larryo340]

What ever happened to the days when a great mechanic only needed a hammer and a vise grip? :P

[twin03]

Look bro, just man-up....................

[Joe Walsh]

I have tools, but not $20,000 worth... more like $50.

When I was twenty something,
I rebuilt a 65 Mustang GT Fastback* with the cheapest 3/8" import ratchet set that you've ever seen!
I borrowed a 1/2" Craftsman ratchet and socket set when I got to the motor mounts.
I used, and bent, my Mom's vacuum cleaner tubes as breaker bars!



*(man I wish I had NOT sold THAT car!!:()

[ImpalaSlayer]

I used, and bent, my Mom's vacuum cleaner tubes as breaker bars!


:rofl: thats pretty good

[larryo340]

When I was twenty something,
I rebuilt a 65 Mustang GT Fastback* with the cheapest 3/8" import ratchet set that you've ever seen!
I borrowed a 1/2" Craftsman ratchet and socket set when I got to the motor mounts.
I used, and bent, my Mom's vacuum cleaner tubes as breaker bars!



*(man I wish I had NOT sold THAT car!!:()

Don't forget about cutting wrenches in half just to get 1 nut loose. There was alot less "special tools" back then or the money to buy them so you made due with what you or your buddies had.

[justbob]

Don't forget about cutting wrenches in half just to get 1 nut loose. There was alot less "special tools" back then or the money to buy them so you made due with what you or your buddies had.

No kidding i now have three or four 7/16 half wrenchs just from the last 3-4 header installs on the last few camaro's i had. And also the custom bent one from the egr tube on the manifold of the MM.

[larryo340]

No kidding i now have three or four 7/16 half wrenchs just from the last 3-4 header installs on the last few camaro's i had. And also the custom bent one from the egr tube on the manifold of the MM.
I have lots of "half" wrenches in my toolbox, and other home-modified tools. :D

[TAKEDOWN]

Dom, what are you talking about. You LOVE cars, you just lack the talent to fix em' like me. At least I'm a ASE certified flashlight holder, that's a very important job, next to keeping the beer frigid cold or root beer in your case!

[justbob]

Dom, what are you talking about. You LOVE cars, you just lack the talent to fix em' like me. At least I'm a ASE certified flashlight holder, that's a very important job, next to keeping the beer frigid cold or root beer in your case!
He is not kidding about the beer staying full and cold, i know.:D

[Motorhead350]

Well the truck is somewhere else now. I'll deal with it later, I'd love to have it in running shape by spring and lowered by summer with new wheels and tires. After that I think that's how I want to keep it... low and slow. :cool:

[Leadfoot281]

I used to work at a salvage yard. I drove around in a 2 wheel drive Ford Ranger and pulled bent-up cars apart.

What tools did I have? A 100 piece Craftsman SAE socket set, a Craftsman 100 piece Metric socket set, a 6 piece set of Matco screwdrivers and a Matco 24" breaker bar.

What did I do with them? Everything! Pulled dozens of motors, trans, rear-ends, windsheild, seats, ect. You name it, I did it. And I did it without ever once borrowing a tool from anyone.

Total cost? About $400. (I paid $120 for just the six screwdrivers). The socket sets were $100 each. The socket sets were purchased with my spare change! Yep, once a year I'd take my change jar to the bank and cash it in. Then I'd head off to Sears for tools. Done deal!

With all due respect Dom, not having enough tools to install a small block in an old Chevy is a weak excuse. That truck wasn't complex or futuristic in 1930! I also gave you 3 years worth of old Car Craft magazines. Not knowing how to do it is also a weak excuse.

[Motorhead350]

John, with the tools I have I can do it, but the issue is how this was set up. The motor mounts are not stock motor mounts. The truck was wrecked and the front of the frame was homemade and I am not sure how anyone ever got an engine to stay in there. If it was fine and everything was in place ok I see your point, but it's not in place and someone did a really bad job getting this to work. Soon as I pulled the engine, the motor mounts went out of place.

If I could take pictures I would to show everyone this isn't as easy as it sounds. Heck, if anyone can get it in in less than an hour I'll buy drinks or food all night! No kidding! But it's too late now, I had it hauled away. :o

[O's Fan Rich]

*(man I wish I had NOT sold THAT car!!:()

Fred Sanford Flashback time: "You Big Dummy!!!"

[Joe Walsh]

Fred Sanford Flashback time: "You Big Dummy!!!"

Yep!

A 289 'A' code 4 speed GT with the trumpet exhaust tips through the rear valence.
I bought it in 'OK' shape for $2,200.00....:eek:
I put EVERY spare nickel I had into that baby, then she got "Hit & Run" by some MF'r while I was parked at a party in Linthicum...:mad2:
He wiped out the GT's left front...Never caught the guy, and I had no collision insurance, and was a cash strapped college student.

Sold her all bent up for $1,800.00....:bigcry:

[hidperf]

No matter how many times I try to get out of the car scene, I always end up back in it. I just can't drive anything that is stock, so I modify. And those little projects turn into HUGE changes but it's something I'm good at so it seems to come easy I guess.
Last year I decided to try my hand at home improvements. Thinking, if I can tear a car apart and put it back better than it was, a house is no problem. The whole project has been a "learn as you go" adventure, but it's kept me away from the cars. In fact, the only time the house project slows down is when a car project rears it's ugly head. Then I have to force myself back onto the house.
Take a breather from things and it'll all work out.

[Joe Walsh]

No matter how many times I try to get out of the car scene, I always end up back in it. I just can't drive anything that is stock, so I modify. And those little projects turn into HUGE changes but it's something I'm good at so it seems to come easy I guess.
Last year I decided to try my hand at home improvements. Thinking, if I can tear a car apart and put it back better than it was, a house is no problem. The whole project has been a "learn as you go" adventure, but it's kept me away from the cars. In fact, the only time the house project slows down is when a car project rears it's ugly head. Then I have to force myself back onto the house.
Take a breather from things and it'll all work out.

That is the same disease that I am afflicted with!

So far I have actually left my wife's 2005 Subaru Legacy GT stock. (except for the K&N filter)
But everytime I get on the Legacy GT website I start having visions of a custom tune and of downpipes, and bigger turbos and more boost....HELP ME!!!

[Pops]

That is the same disease that I am afflicted with!

So far I have actually left my wife's 2005 Subaru Legacy GT stock. (except for the K&N filter)
But everytime I get on the Legacy GT website I start having visions of a custom tune and of downpipes, and bigger turbos and more boost....HELP ME!!!

Go cook a big pot of white rice Joe! That will bring you back! :D

[O's Fan Rich]

Turbo for Michelle's 06 Focus ST...........

[TAKEDOWN]

No matter how many times I try to get out of the car scene, I always end up back in it. I just can't drive anything that is stock, so I modify. And those little projects turn into HUGE changes but it's something I'm good at so it seems to come easy I guess.
Last year I decided to try my hand at home improvements. Thinking, if I can tear a car apart and put it back better than it was, a house is no problem. The whole project has been a "learn as you go" adventure, but it's kept me away from the cars. In fact, the only time the house project slows down is when a car project rears it's ugly head. Then I have to force myself back onto the house.
Take a breather from things and it'll all work out.

Oh yeah I AGREE, it always starts out as window tinting for me, next thing you know...

[justbob]

Oh yeah I AGREE, it always starts out as window tinting for me, next thing you know...
Next thing you know you have headers sitting in the garage for years to come. LOL:lol:

[TAKEDOWN]

Next thing you know you have headers sitting in the garage for years to come. LOL:lol:

Springtime my friend springtime! :beer:

[BODYMAN]

well I can relate after that guy on the highway smacked my KB-s I did nothing for 2 yrs (2 little boys at home) BUt just lately I have had more interest than in the past I guess I just needed a break? I have seen this with other folks in our age group give it sometime and you will be back to normal!:shake::shake: Circumstances change and prioritys change but as haggis said one time once assimilated always assimalted!!! so hang in there just dont do something you will regret in the future I think we all go thu things like this sometime or another

Todd






I didn't want to do it, but yesterday I had my 65 Chevy towed away from me. Not for good, but to have someone do the work and get that thing out of my dads garage for now. I never wanted to pay for labor, but the hours I spend trying to figure this out or lack of help I am getting from anyone unless cash is involved I have decided to let someone do the work for me. I really wanted to build this myself with help from others, but I just learned how much these projects take up your spare time.

The place it's going to will get the engine in correctly and also hook it up for me. I don't know about the wiring, because it takes so long I don't want a labor bill for 1,000s of dollars.

Even the Marauder needs little stuff done, but I have just let it sit. Same with the K5. All the time I would jump on it and get it done to the best of my ability, now if something needs work I just have this "So what?" Attitude. I really think I am losing interest in the hobby. It takes up more time and money than a relationship... or maybe it's because I'm pushing for a better future and all the fun stuff is on hold.

Did anyone experience this at 23??? :confused: