Big Three Bailout ??

[Bluerauder]

This has been in the news for the past couple of days. Do you think that the Federal Government should bail out the "Big 3 Automakers" Ford, GM and Chrysler to the tune of $25 Billion?

If you respond ..... try to keep it civil so we can benefit from your thoughts on this matter. Serious stuff this is.

[O's Fan Rich]

No... not yet... have not heard enough about what they have to do and what the Unions will do......

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

The government shouldn't be bailing anyone out. But there will be more serious repercussions if they aren't saved.

[SC Cheesehead]

Should Congress bail out the auto industry?

In a word, nope.

IMO, Chapter 11 would allow restructuring which would permit long-term viability. Bailout under current OS will only prolong the current financial issues, and taxpayers take it in the shorts when the Big Three do go down.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/11/to_save_detroit_let_it_go_bank .html

No matter how you look at it, it's gonna get worse before it gets any better.:shake:

[CBT]

Maybe if the Unions were excluded. Months ago, on a somewhat unrelated subject, Amy asked what I thought about Unions. I told her they had a stranglehold on the auto industry, and they were just a money making machine for the mob, and if they did such great job, EVERYONE would make the same amount. But if everyone made the same amount, then how could they continue to survive? There wouldn't be any 'underpaid little guy' for them to 'fight for'; hence, no more money making machine. Now that reports are coming out about how the UAW is the sole cause for Big Three's financial ruin, and that non-union non-big three plants are surviving and thriving, she commented the other day that she doesn't think my statement was as crazy as it originally sounded to her. Now, what WILL happen if we keep bailing everyone out is, we will go back to the gold standard, except it won't be confiscated by the government, and it will rocket to about 12 thousand dollars an ounce. So save your gold. Class is over, dismissed.

[vonirkinshtine]

Maybe if the big 3 made better cars that more people wanted they wouldn't have this problem.

[Warbuff]

The ONLY reason why I MIGHT be able to agree with a "bail out" for them is... it won't be just the auto workers that lose their jobs if any of them close, it's everybody involved from suppliers to the workers, it's just HUGE how many people would be out of work. Other than that, I don't like public companies getting goverment hand outs.

[Dr Caleb]

Should Congress bail out the auto industry?

In a word, nope.

IMO, Chapter 11 would allow restructuring which would permit long-term viability. Bailout under current OS will only prolong the current financial issues, and taxpayers take it in the shorts when the Big Three do go down.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/11/to_save_detroit_let_it_go_bank .html

No matter how you look at it, it's gonna get worse before it gets any better.:shake:

I have to agree with you. Chrysler is back in the same place it was before Icocca. But it survived near bankrupcy. So will GM and Ford.

Not like everyone here didn't see them making mistakes over the last 4 - 10 years.

But I don't believe it's the Union's fault. The government here is also talking bailout, but the Unions aren't identified as the culprit. If the US government bails out the big 3, we have to as well or they say 'the jobs will move south'. Which is funny, because I don't think Mexico is planning on bailing out the big 3 under threat of jobs moving north.

[TiTo35]

Where does "bailing out" stop?
Didnt they just bail out some companies, then they were out getting spa treatments?

I say bail out the ppl that need it more...the American citizens... :twocents:

[Rocknthehawk]

I think the they need restructured.

when companies like toyota, nissan, etc can build cars in the states, at half the cost per unit, it shows there is a problem.

[TAKEDOWN]

It seems the majority of Americans are not out there spending $$$, so as an incentive how about lowering the prices on these cars. They can't even sell the ones sitting and they're still producing more yearly. I think it's better to break even or above and make little profit, then no profit at all. Just my opinion, but HELL what do I know.

[bigmerc2003]

Maybe if the Unions were excluded. Months ago, on a somewhat unrelated subject, Amy asked what I thought about Unions. I told her they had a stranglehold on the auto industry, and they were just a money making machine for the mob, and if they did such great job, EVERYONE would make the same amount. But if everyone made the same amount, then how could they continue to survive? There wouldn't be any 'underpaid little guy' for them to 'fight for'; hence, no more money making machine. Now that reports are coming out about how the UAW is the sole cause for Big Three's financial ruin, and that non-union non-big three plants are surviving and thriving, she commented the other day that she doesn't think my statement was as crazy as it originally sounded to her. Now, what WILL happen if we keep bailing everyone out is, we will go back to the gold standard, except it won't be confiscated by the government, and it will rocket to about 12 thousand dollars an ounce. So save your gold. Class is over, dismissed.

Unions have ruined companies and their ability to compete in the US. I am all for theory behind it, you have a large group protecting you, but when the union only fights to get their people more money so that the unions cut goes up then it defeats the purpose. The Big 3 need to loose the union, cut the fat cats at the top and rethink the auto industry. How can a Hyndai make 350hp on 6 cylinders with 35mpg and a mustang is 315 on twice the motor and at the brink of having to pay a gas guzzler tax! If the big 3 go under so does the US economy and depression here we come. If we do rescue them there needs to be quotas to meet, no upper level raises or insane bonus's for the fat cats and most of all no employee cuts! we should not give them money to help keep the economy going if they are going to cut jobs and screw the economy worse.

[vkirkend]

Your plants, Your plans, Your ideas, and when the S.... hits the fan it's the workers fault. The workers only do what they are instructed to do. Are they paid too much, maybe but who wouldn't get as much as they could for their services. And if we send all our manufacturing capacity overseas, heaven help us if there is a war that requires a massive ramping up in production. Remember what manufacturers made the machines we needed in the past...I say don't let them go under or be prepared to have your taxes skyrtocket of to help these workers transition.

[Peter]

Way back in 1979 when Chrysler needed government help, there was a political cartoon that perfectly captured the situation. If featured an old Plymouth Fury with giant tail fins teetering halfway over a cliff, with a tow truck parked nearby. A bystander wearing a shirt labeled U.S. Taxpayer was staring at the car on the cliff. The tow truck driver was nonchalantly picking his teeth and telling the taxpayer, "I can tow it out, or push it over the cliff, but either way it's going to cost you."

And so here we are again, only this time it's not just Chrysler. Now GM and Ford need to get towed back onto solid ground, too. And while there are plenty of people saying, "Let them die," the reality is that it'll be cheaper to bail them out.

While it's frustrating to see that Chrysler needs help again, it's important to remember what happened after the government bailout of 30 years ago. Not only did Chrysler come roaring back and pay off the loans seven years early, Uncle Sam made a $350 million profit on the whole deal. Investors who stuck with the company made a fortune, too. Chrysler stock shot from $3 a share to over $30, a 1,000% return in just a few years time.

If the Big Three get a government bailout this time, I see history repeating itself. Most people seem to miss the fact that they are on the verge of a massive turnaround. I'm not trying to be a rah-rah cheerleader here. I'm persuaded simply by the facts.

Last year's UAW contract was truly historic in that it will completely remove the health care cost burden off the Big Three. Though they have to give the union the money to assume this burden, they're paying 40% less than it would otherwise cost them. After 2010 they stop paying billions in health care every year and start dropping that money to the bottom line.

Moreover, there will no longer be any pensions for new hires. They'll get 401k's instead. Again, massive cost savings going forward.

On top of that the UAW workforce takes big pay cuts, and new hires come in at a wage rate that is roughly the same that Toyota, Honda, Nissan, et al, are paying their American workers. In other words, the Big Three can finally compete with the transplants from a labor cost standpoint. That means they can now make small cars in America without losing money on every one they make.

Another benefit of that new labor contract is that the Big Three are no longer pressured to keep building cars and trucks in the face of weak demand. Under the old labor contract it was cheaper to build cars and slap big incentives on them than it was to not build them in the first place. Now, they can build to actual demand, and they're running on much tighter inventory.

That means they'll be able to slash their incentives. Every $1,000 that General Motors cuts from incentives will drop roughly $4 billion to the bottom line. And GM has an average of $3,500 in incentives!

Plus, the Big Three are taking out a huge amount of overcapacity, roughly two million units. To fulfill demand in the future their plants will have to run at full capacity, and that's when car companies literally become cash machines.

What this means is that when the economy finally starts to recover and the car market begins to grow again, GM, Ford and Chrysler will be in an extremely competitive position, one they haven't been in for more than 40 years.


And that's why those who say giving them a bailout is just throwing good money after bad are dead wrong. The Big Three are not only on the verge of a roaring comeback, I predict that in the next decade they'll go on to hit record profits.
[][][][][][]

[SC Cheesehead]

Peter,

You make some good points, but how are the Big Three going to resolve the issue of job banking? UAW negotiated this in back in the 80's and it costs automakers big bucks as well as stifling impact of productivity improvements.

[MERCMAN]

This is a wake up call for the Big 3.
There is something wrong in this country when a guy that puts carpet in a mini-van is making more than the teachers who instruct our children. There is something wrong with an "unskilled" worker making more than health care professionals with degrees.
How many people in the US have affordable health care when they retire from their careers? If you retire before eligibilty for Medicare,, not many. Unions had their place in the past and I applaud them for improvement in working conditions that they helped implement, BUT, in todays marketplace the wages and benefits have spiraled out of control in comparison to the rest of the workforce. This is not the worker's fault but the fault of the Big 3 giving in to the "gangster" type mentality of the unions. Honda, Suburu, Toyota and most other non-US companies seem to be doing quite well without Union supervision.

I vote for restructuring and getting a handle on the unions. Remember, when the Unions called for a strike, not many were worried about the effect it had on the suppliers, just how much they could get from the companies. Let the Big 3 learn to run lean and mean like so many others have had to do to keep up with competition.

Of course, thats just my opinion and I could be wrong :up:

[fordman]

NON UNION big wigs at the Big 3 are pulling some SERIOUS cash at 250k a year and some and your blaming unions??????????????????

From what I've read over the years the unions have given up a lot to the Big 3 to keep there doors open, just as my union here has done to my employer to keep us working in tough times like these.

As a union member myself I hope for the sake of our economy there will come an answer to keep our brothers and sisters of the Big 3 working and food on the table.

[CRUZTAKER]

Glad to see the no's have it thus far.

If the union had not been so greedy over the years paying a guy to screw a bolt over and over all day long for $75/hr and make sure he received that amount after retiring for the rest of his life....perhaps they wouldn't be broke.

You don't see the foreign car makers here in the states suffering.
That's because they pay fair wages like you and I most laborers earn.

I was always concerned with the union raping the companies for the employees benefit.
Serves them right.
Failure.
25/hr is more than enough to stand on an assembly line and hold a drill.

[Canadasvt]

Another simple question turns into a forum on Union-bashing, by mostly ignorant people and I mean that in the nicest way.
I don't know about the U.S. but up here all the teachers are unionised and right now some are on strike because they turned down a 9.2% raise over the next 3 years. Meanwhile we at the CAW just signed our latest contract in June (3 months early) and agreed to 0% over the next 3 years and 40 hours less holiday each of those 3 years. Please don't lump all unions into the same crapper.

The hourly guys on the line could work for $0.00 and we still can't make it as cheap as they do in China.
If the D3 go down they will be taking 95% of us with them.

FWIW Toyota is hurting in NA too.

The strongest unions in the world are in Europe and I don't hear any of my relatives or friends over there *****ing about them. If the unions were taken away everyone would have to count on the companies and the government to look after their wellness and safety, just like in China and Brazil where they will kill you if you get in productions way or complain about working conditions.
Blah, blah, blah.............I could rant all day about this but it won't sink in without a hit to the back of some heads :P

[CRUZTAKER]

My apologies ahead of the flames back to me.
You can see I am not a union kind of guy.
My company takes care of us for the most part, and yes I clearly understand how a union may protect a worker from unfair work practices.

In the auto industry however....the union is the root of the problem.
If the chair holders, owners, and ceo's of the company do not have full control to protect the wellness of the company itself, their future is uncertain.

I say this knowing that after 10 years with my employer, I may lose my job by March 09 as a result of cuts to keep the company in the black.
If we had a union, yeah, they might save my job. But in 5 more years, WE would be begging for a bailout as well.

BANKRUPTSY AND NEW UNION AGGREEMENTS like everyone else booya! :up:

[Ken]

Glad to see the no's have it thus far.

If the union had not been so greedy over the years paying a guy to screw a bolt over and over all day long for $75/hr and make sure he received that amount after retiring for the rest of his life....perhaps they wouldn't be broke.

You don't see the foreign car makers here in the states suffering.
That's because they pay fair wages like you and I most laborers earn.

I was always concerned with the union raping the companies for the employees benefit.
Serves them right.
Failure.
25/hr is more than enough to stand on an assembly line and hold a drill.Damn, I never knew that I made so much money an hour? :dunno:

The foreign automakers don't have the retirees yet to support.

If any of you think that you can do an autoworker's job for 8-10 hours a day for much less money. Be my guest. You don't value yourself and the abuse that you will put yourself through.

How about starting another poll stating how much everyone of you make that feel the autoworkers are overpaid?

:twocents:

Ken

BTW: I was making just over $26/hr, when I retired 19 months ago. And I'm physically beat from the 30 years of abuse.

[CRUZTAKER]

BTW: I was making just over $26/hr, when I retired 19 months ago. And I'm physically beat from the 30 years of abuse.

Damnit Ken...you were getting screwed! Call your union rep!!! :P

J/K
I knew you were involved, and by no means intend to insult you.
You're a good guy, and I know you busted your ass for those 30 years.
Seriously though....I would have figured a higher wage after 30???

[CBT]

How about starting another poll stating how much everyone of you make that feel the autoworkers are overpaid.

Roughly 72 thousand for me, Amy might add another 12 thousand.
Unions WERE great back when company henchmen busted up strikers picket lines and heads, and before there was an ACLU branch in every neighborhood and workers comp lawyers on every corner, both ready to sue anyone for anything they might do to you, up to and including hurting your feelings. (Add to that OSHA, who actually looks out for your safety.) What bugs me is unions don't really care how they get thier dues. Chicago, sanctuary city numero uno, pays illegal framers 35 bucks an hour thanks to local unions that accept in good faith that the name you scribbled on a yellow post-it note is actually you. So who is getting helped here? I know whose NOT, carpenters like my old man. But I digress, no auto bail out if it were up to me. And no offense meant to anyone, we are all adults, we can give and recieve opinions like civilized folks hopefully.

[gmtech]

The real kicker is Honda opens a new plant in Indiana this week.:D But on this subject i say no bailout, they put themselves there and should have to fix thier own probs. If they do bailout this industry then who's next? I work at a Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealer and with all this bad news, today i get a tech magazine at work that "introduces" the 2010 Pontiac G3, a rebadged Chevy Aveo(DAEWOO CRAP) that reails for 14,995:eek:. They are completely clueless. Let'em fold

[MarauderVOL]

Save them but the big three need to make a bunch of changes to get cars off the showroom floors and into peoples drive ways. Restructure cut the fat and make the cars people want. As far as the 25 billion to bail out private companies isn't Congress spending 700 billion to bail out the banks and mortgage companies who made bad business decisions.

[scruff]

I think the unions used to be good for the working man back when they started up after the great depression they got us better working conditions and better pay / bennefits etc but today i think all there are out for is to make as much as they can for themselfs and there fat cats driveing around in limos. Its a bad situtation all around but i say screw them and no bailout = the big three will survive on there own just need to break the unions and run a tighter ship like honda does. I get my knowledge from my parents who were witness to what happened to the ship building industrie in the UK many years ago Unions Priced themselfs out of a job - Live and Learn People

[Leadfoot281]

I'm mixed on all of this.

I don't like unions but I don't like government intervention either. (BTW , you Union guys can only half-hate me since I won't drive an import but dislike labor unions.)

With that being said, it is unions fault, pure and simple. I don't care about the few "Golden parachutes" a few "fat cats" get in Detroit.

What about the millions of "silver parachutes" their employees get?

The solution to the problem is to unionise all our foreign competiton. Saddle those companys with the same problems we have.

Right now those guys are willing to work for much less than $26/hr.

Oh well, once un-employment hits 20% here, they'll have no problem finding people willing to work for $8/hr.

[scruff]

Yea that might just work Lets drag down all of the non union companys ass well and put more people on welfare Govt has no businness being in the Auto bussiness they are only here for our own welfare.

[Bluerauder]

All three CEOs agreed to take just $1.00 in salary this year. Nice gesture. Easy to do if you got $20 Million for the past several years. Give up the rest of the compensation package, too --- that's an even better gesture.

[Mike Poore]

Damn, I never knew that I made so much money ...

BTW: I was making just over $26/hr, when I retired 19 months ago. And I'm physically beat from the 30 years of abuse.

Ken, how does that square with the reported $75 per hr in wages and benefits that are being reported in the print media? Who on earth are they talking about?

[SC Cheesehead]

Mike, I think the $75 per hour accounts for a fully loaded hourly rate, which includes cost of benefits as well as the allocation for legacy costs relating to pensions for retired employees. This is one of the big problems facing automakers, which is similar to that faced by the big steel producers a few years ago. This, along with guaranteed employment clauses in UAW contracts places a huge financial burden on automakers.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

[Mike Poore]

Mike, I think the $75 per hour accounts for a fully loaded hourly rate, which includes cost of benefits as well as the allocation for legacy costs relating to pensions for retired employees. This is one of the big problems facing automakers, which is similar to that faced by the big steel producers a few years ago. This, along with guaranteed employment clauses in UAW contracts places a huge financial burden on automakers.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

If I understand correctly, the price of actual labor, spent per hour to build my car, doubles, because nearly half of the fender bolter's on are working crossword puzzles, or retired? :eek:

[SC Cheesehead]

If I understand correctly, the price of actual labor, spent per hour to build my car, doubles, because nearly half of the fender bolter's on are working crossword puzzles, or retired? :eek:

Uhhhh, the way it works right now, half the "fender bolter's" wage rate is covering cost for folks either working crossword puzzles, or retired; but, yup, you pretty much nailed it.:(

[Bluerauder]

If I understand correctly, the price of actual labor, spent per hour to build my car, doubles, because nearly half of the fender bolter's on are working crossword puzzles, or retired? :eek:
That isn't quite how it is .... exactly. There is an overhead burden on every worker and it includes general & administrative costs, overhead for non-direct billable costs, benefits, vacations, medical & dental and profit (among other things like office/working space - equipment, heating, lights, utilities, etc.)

If Ken's salary is typical then $26 of $75 billed/charged goes to Ken. Therefore, Ken only sees 35% of his effective rate. His salary multiplier is 2.88.

By comparison, my salary multiplier is 2.14. I see 47% of every dollar billed. I have a very good benefits package and the company makes 8-10% profit to boot.

If the "Big 3" are losing money -- there aren't too many explanations. Too many workers for the products being sold. Inefficient labor force. Excessive overhead costs. Excess G&A staffing/costs. Inefficient billing. Incorrect pricing. Improper allocation of indirect costs (i.e. marketing) among others.

With a multiplier of 2.88, I leave it to you all to figure out where the money is going if it is not given to the worker and it ain't showing up in profit.

[SC Cheesehead]

....With a multiplier of 2.88, I leave it to you all to figure out where the money is going if it is not given to the worker and it ain't showing up in profit.

If anything like the steel industry, a big chunk of the multiplier is allocated to covering legacy costs. Typcially, retiree OPEBs are funded by a factor applied to the current workforce, and as more people retire, the higher this factor becomes.

Same holds true for the job pool funding. End result: under the current structure, you may end up with a smaller workforce, but the applied hourly rate continues to escalate, and in some cases, it skyrockets.

[Vortex]

US automakers are in a mess not because of the products they sell but because they have survived almost 100 years (or more) and pay fixed retirements and medical expenses for retirees. Japanese and German companies were rubble after WWII and we rebuilt them. We let the cat out of the bag when we started letting imports come to the US on an unequal basis, ie letting companies that had no long term personnel expenses ship over cars to compete with ours. We should have demanded a duty commensurate to the expenses paid for personnel expenses incurred by our industries. This has nothing to do with the quality of imports, they are damn fine cars and even with an appropriate duty would have sold well. We didnt do that and since the early 70's the US auto industry (and damn near every other US manufacturer) has has this same problem.
I have no problem with imports as long as they are competing fairly in the marketplace. Unfortunately our politicians from both parties have let the meaning of "free trade" become in actuality the loss of our manufacturng base. The same thing has happened in the shoe and textile industries. Its a long list. Im not saying there arent some dumb workplace rules either, but management agreed to those rules in negotiations with workers. When was the last strike you heard of from working class folks complaining about the small group of individuals sitting on multiple boards awarding each other massive payouts?
All this and now we need to do something to at least try to fix it. I dont like sending money to Detroit but they are asking I think for 25B of the 700B sent to Wall Street. If GM fails we will lose at least 1 million jobs. Chrysler paid off their loans early and with interest. It is in our long term interests to help our manufacurers now. Weve all had enough of the "let'em fail" ("bring'em on") baloney.

[BigCars4Ever]

If this happens they should also re-negotiate the union contracts. The unions are like parasite. What they are not seeing is once the host dies so do they.

[Bigdogjim]

First off the bail is $25B on top of the $25B they got approved in September = $$50B!

If you let the "Big 3" fall by the wayside or miss a step and go bankrupt then guess who pick up market shares??

Now guess/think who is sitting in an office half way around the world praying we let 'em go bust????

[Bluerauder]

As of 03:00 PM, 19 Nov 08

NO -- 40/81 = 49.4%

YES -- 31/81 = 38.3%

Undecided -- 10/81 = 12.3%

At least we all agree that they should not just give 'em the money 0/81 = 0%

[Joe Walsh]

If this happens they should also re-negotiate the union contracts. The unions are like parasite. What they are not seeing is once the host dies so do they.

Yeah, But you also have to look at the RIDICULOUS executive compensation packages that are not tied to the companies actual performance.....
Heck all the CEOs/CFOs etc. get rich as stink even when the companies FAIL.

[SC Cheesehead]

Yeah, But you also have to look at the RIDICULOUS executive compensation packages that are not tied to the companies actual performance.....
Heck all the CEOs/CFOs etc. get rich as stink even when the companies FAIL.
Joe,

I don't know if it's so much the salary compensation as it is the bonuses they get. I think any exec bonuses should be directly tied to company performance over something more than one quarter or a fiscal year.

IMO, that's a big problem now as companies get managed to the short term which often leads to dumb azz business decisions for long term viability. Need to take a lesson from the Japanese here!

[Joe Walsh]

Joe,

I don't know if it's so much the salary compensation as it is the bonuses they get. I think any exec bonuses should be directly tied to company performance over something more than one quarter or a fiscal year.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

IMO, that's a big problem now as companies get managed to the short term which often leads to dumb azz business decisions for long term viability. Need to take a lesson from the Japanese here!


That is the problem with most American corporations.
It is all tied to making the stock price rise based on a quarterly earnings report

[Hotrauder]

The way that the big 3 do business now with the crushing weight of gubmint regulation, business unfriendly state government, stupid dealer arrangements and ruinous supplier and union contracts coupled with the unpayable legacy costs there is no way they can continue no matter how much "free" money the gubmint gives them. They need total restructuring way beyond what $ they are talking now. Hell I read that GM has 18 billion and their needed operating capitol to continue normal operations is 12 to 14 billion per month...the clowns that have run the magic money press into the ground have got to go and the contracts with them. Honda, Toyota and BMW are profitably building cars of quality with happy productive workers in the USA, so can the big 3. They need chapter 11, restructuring, a move out of Michigan, new contracts and new workers who understand that quality productivity is more important to their success than union dues. Perworker costs of $78.00 per hour to hang parts on cars?:stupid:No question it will be very difficult on the workers, on the economy and on those of us who have cars that need service, but if we are to maintain a presence of the big 3 dopes in this country it needs to happen. Interestingly they are doing well overseas?? Anyone care to explain that beyond the rant above? Dennis

[BODYMAN]

IN SHORT I AGREE, BUT WE ALL BETTER BE READY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THE BIG 3 GO. THAT WOULD BE A WHOLE LOTTA JOBS AND NOT JUST JOBS AT THE AUTOMAKERS, EVERYTHING FROM DEALERS TO SMALL SUPPLIERS TO DEALERSHIPS. SC CHEESEHEAD SUMMED IT UP IT IS GOING TO GET A WHOLE LOT WORSE BEFORE IT GETS ANY BETTER. LIKE I KEEP SAYING BE PREPARED STOCK UP ON CAN GOODS AND FRESH WATER AND ALOT OF AMMO PEOPLE BECOME THIEVES WHEN THERE FAMILY IS STARVING AND THEY FEEL LIKE THERE BACKED INTO A CORNER. :confused:




Should Congress bail out the auto industry?

In a word, nope.

IMO, Chapter 11 would allow restructuring which would permit long-term viability. Bailout under current OS will only prolong the current financial issues, and taxpayers take it in the shorts when the Big Three do go down.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/11/to_save_detroit_let_it_go_bank .html

No matter how you look at it, it's gonna get worse before it gets any better.:shake:

[vkirkend]

All three CEOs agreed to take just $1.00 in salary this year. Nice gesture. Easy to do if you got $20 Million for the past several years. Give up the rest of the compensation package, too --- that's an even better gesture.

Easy to take a dollar when all the real money is in the compensation package.... I loved the fact that today the Presidents of the Big 3 all came to Washington on private corporate jets "with tin cups in their hands".

[DOOM]

:confused: ......

[Canadasvt]

Okay, let's stop calling them the 'Big 3'. That was over when Toyota took over 3rd, then 2nd, and now 1st spot. GM,Ford and Mopar have been known as the D3 (Detroit 3) for some years now.
I'm in Canada at the Edge,MKX,Flex,MKT plant. I earn $35/hour but if I used up every benefit available to me (hearing aids,chiropractor,drug plan,eye plan.........etc.) my 'income' would be up there.

For the past 30 years we have paid $0.35 for every prescription drug. With our latest contract we understood how this is hurting our companies and accepted paying 20% of the fee up to $250 in the first year, $275 in the 2nd, and $300 in the 3rd year of our latest contract. That is just one more example of what we as a union have given up.
Some of you think Ford is stupid and should have seen the writing on the wall? What was the best selling vehicle in N/A for the past decade? Ford F Series pick up truck.

The buying public decides what we build, not any company or any union. Look at WALMART. Most of the public want cheap crap and don't give a **** what slave labour camp made it and that's what WAMART sells.

[Vortex]

Chapter 11 only works when you have investors willing to invest in the reoganized company. There is no investing going on these days. If GM fails, it will go into Chapter 7 and believe it or not, will be gone. It will also have a ripple effect as when GM goes, its suppliers go too. I remember the days of Pan Am, Gulf Oil, RCA and Westinghouse were real companies. We have to keep our manufacturing base open or we will simply become a nation of burger flippers.

[Bigdogjim]

Some of you think Ford is stupid and should have seen the writing on the wall? What was the best selling vehicle in N/A for the past decade? Ford F Series pick up truck.

The buying public decides what we build, not any company or any union. Look at WALMART. Most of the public want cheap crap and don't give a **** what slave labour camp made it and that's what WAMART sells.

True however F- series trucks have been # 1 for over 30 years.

And it is a world record not just North America:up:

[Mike Poore]

BTW, here's the graphic I was talking about. I still don't understand how that squares with Ken's 26 bucks an hour.

http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/wm2135_chart1.jpg

The problem is obvious.

[SC Cheesehead]

Mike,

Ken's wage rate of $26 per hour corresponds pretty close to the $25.36 average on the graphic. That reflects what the average worker earns per hour worked. However, the $70+ per hour shown for "UAW-represented workers" is what it costs the Big Three to employ that worker for an hour. The delta between the $70+ and $25 is the cost of benefits, both short and long term. The long-term, i.e. pension and health care for retirees (legacy costs) is a big chunk of that cost.

[STLR FN]

Mike,

Ken's wage rate of $26 per hour corresponds pretty close to the $25.36 average on the graphic. That reflects what the average worker earns per hour worked. However, the $70+ per hour shown for "UAW-represented workers" is what it costs the Big Three to employ that worker for an hour. The delta between the $70+ and $25 is the cost of benefits, both short and long term. The long-term, i.e. pension and health care for retirees (legacy costs) is a big chunk of that cost.
Pretty much sums it up but the public only "sees" the $75/hr.

[Bluerauder]

BTW, here's the graphic I was talking about. I still don't understand how that squares with Ken's 26 bucks an hour.
There are many components to the typical Labor Hour. Ken only gets to see a portion of that in "Take-Home" salary. Here's an example of how The $75.86 Labor Hour translate to $26.00 for Ken. Your numbers may vary -- the point is that lots of stuff gets covered out of that Labor Hour. For Ken to get more of the pie .... something else has to shrink. For the whole pie to get smaller .... everything must shrink.

But where to take it?? Employer contributions to Social Security and Medicare are set by Government. They could cut back on holidays and vacation or roll sick time into a combined vacation/sick pool, health and dental costs are rising. Retirement costs increase as the retiree pool grows and the labor pool shrinks. Generally, the only areas where any savings can really be achieved is by reducing G&A (i.e. management, HR support, indirect labor support to the workers), Overhead (ie. things such as marketing, promotional items, corporate jets for the bigwigs, subsidized lunches and cafeterias, Christmas parties, bonuses, etc.) and Profit (i.e. used to grow the company and hopefully take care of them employees as opposed to the CEOs and CFOs golden parachutes). Balancing the Labor Hour Dollar is difficult. More difficult if your hands are tied and you don't have complete flexibility and/or authority. JMHO.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/1/8/9/1/The75.86LaborHour.jpg

[HBTMD]

There needs to be a major change in the way the Big 3 do business before they deserve to borrow any American tax payer money.

1) They have to stop making unreliable crap that fails to compete with Toyota, Honda, Nissan or even Hyundai.

2)They need to stop ripping off the customer whenever they make a decent car.

Try buying a new Dodge Challenger RT or SRT-8 at Factory Retail Sticker Price. Dealerships typically want $1,000 to $10,000 extra for "added dealer profit". When my Marauder came out, most dealers were demanding $1,000 to $10,000 over factory sticker. When the new Shelby Cobra Mustang 500 came out dealers were demanding up to $50,000 over retail. The more recent Ford Thunderbird was sabotaged by greedy dealerships demanding $5,000 to $10,000 over retail.

The big 3 allow their dealerships to gouge the public for whatever they think they can get out of them.:mad2:

It is no surprise that Americans prefer to purchase Japanese, German and Korean cars.

the Big 3 brought this disaster upon themselves. They need to change the way they do business before they deserve anything from the American Taxpayer.:cheesed:

[Mike Poore]

It offends to have them hold a gun to our collective heads and howl about what's gonna happen to our economy, if we don't bail them out. A catastrophe beyond measure, they say.

Dare we be reminded about what what happened to this economy the day those bastards flew the aircraft into the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania field? Never mind the pain suffered by our fellow citizens, and all who that outrage touched. Add up the direct costs from that day, plus the cost of our response to it, and we quickly realize the correct answer to the big 3's woes, is apparently, the one they've been given. "You've built and lived in your house of sticks, die in it, or build a better house".

BTW, an aside, I heard Laura Ingram, on Imus, yesterday, talking about the tallest, most magnificent building in Detroit. Want to guess? Yep, it's the UAW building/palace. Ironically too, it's the very people who staff that edifice who called for the impeachment of those who surely saved this nation from even greater tragedy.

[Ken]

It offends to have them hold a gun to our collective heads and howl about what's gonna happen to our economy, if we don't bail them out. A catastrophe beyond measure, they say.

Dare we be reminded about what what happened to this economy the day those bastards flew the aircraft into the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania field? Never mind the pain suffered by our fellow citizens, and all who that outrage touched. Add up the direct costs from that day, plus the cost of our response to it, and we quickly realize the correct answer to the big 3's woes, is apparently, the one they've been given. "You've built and lived in your house of sticks, die in it, or build a better house".

BTW, an aside, I heard Laura Ingram, on Imus, yesterday, talking about the tallest, most magnificent building in Detroit. Want to guess? Yep, it's the UAW building/palace. Ironically too, it's the very people who staff that edifice who called for the impeachment of those who surely saved this nation from even greater tragedy.WHAT THE H*** DOES 911 HAVE TO DO WITH THIS THREAD? JUST WAIT TILL THE ECONOMY AFFECTS YOUR JOB/LIFE. YOU ALL THINK THAT YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR GOOD PAY, BUT NO ONE ELSE IS. I'M GETTING A LITTLE IRRITATED WITH THIS TOPIC, ESPECIALLY BY A MODERATOR. POLITICS IS OFF LIMITS, BUT THIS ISN'T.

FOUND THIS ON THE OTHER SITE!

6 Myths about the Detroit 3

BY MARK PHELAN • FREE PRESS COLUMNIST • November 17, 2008

The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are six myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.

Myth No. 1

Nobody buys their vehicles.

Reality

General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.

Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.

Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.

Myth No. 2

They build unreliable junk.

Reality

The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.

Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3

They build gas-guzzlers.

Reality

All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4

They already got a $25-billion bailout.

Reality

None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.
Myth No. 5

GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.

Reality

The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.

Myth No. 6

They don't build hybrids.

Reality

The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
__________________

Ken

[Mike Poore]

WHAT THE H*** DOES 911 HAVE TO DO WITH THIS THREAD? JUST WAIT TILL THE ECONOMY AFFECTS YOUR JOB/LIFE. YOU ALL THINK THAT YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR GOOD PAY, BUT NO ONE ELSE IS. I'M GETTING A LITTLE IRRITATED WITH THIS TOPIC, ESPECIALLY BY A MODERATOR. POLITICS IS OFF LIMITS, BUT THIS ISN'T.

Ken

Ken, 9-11 has everything to do with the very same economy the folks who are asking us to bail them out of the mess they have created. They are the ones who are making the point about how much we will suffer if we do not save them. This is not a political discussion, but one concerning the economy of this nation that will effect the lives, futures, and fortunes of us all.

Being a moderator does not take away my right to contribute to discussions on this board, or does it make my views more or less meaningful, nor give them weight.

This issue is much too complex for many of us to comprehend, and there is enough hyperbole coming from both sides to make sense of it nearly impossible. We look at our own circumstance and express what we feel, not what we can support with facts, because for the most part, few know what they are, or can see far enough into the future to comprehend the impact this will have upon us as individuals, or collectively as a nation.

Ken I respectfully hold you in high regard as a friend. You and I are not the problem, here, though we seem to hold divergent viewpoints; but let's not let what we think we see, affect how we feel towards one another.

Is it time to lock this thread?

[Bluerauder]

Is it time to lock this thread?
Not at all. This is a car thread. It is about the auto industry in general and about the US Auto Industry in particular. I think it is important to air all of the ideas/opinions and so far that has been working. I venture to state that the membership of this board is probably more knowledgeable on this subject than the population at large.

I have no idea what set Ken off on that particular post; but I think that having "car guys/people" voice their opinion on this topic is very important. Insiders in the auto industry might not like what they are hearing ... but they sure should listen and evaluate. This is a difficult and sometimes emotional issue for some. The poll shows how widely divergent the opinions are. However, ........

As of 7:00 PM, Friday, 21 November 2008:

NO -- 60/125 = 48.0%

YES -- 48/125 = 38.4%

Undecided -- 17/125 = 13.6%

FWIW Ken ... I missed the point and relevancy of 9-11 as well.

[GordonB]

OK, my 2 cents worth:
If we can allocate $700Billion to assist and or buy stock in banks, why not offer $$$$$ to the old ailing US Car industries in exchange for loans/stock swap, etc with certain strings ala Chrysler of Old (early '80s) or current bak bailout?
GordonB

[Ken]

I have no idea what set Ken off on that particular post. FWIW Ken ... I missed the point and relevancy of 9-11 as well.I want to know why the Auto bailout and the terrorism of 911 were linked together?

Did I miss the post about the $700 Billion bailout that the banks got. No strings attached evidently. It was announced a few days later that PNC bank of Pittsburg bought up National City Bank using their bailout money. Is that what they gave them the money for? How many of you work in the Banking industry?

If GM were to use the money to buy Chrysler, then valid complaint. But the government helped Chrysler survive 28 years ago, so why can't they assist again?

Another question: Who that commented or voted in the poll is going out and buying a vehicle in the near future? and why not?

Let me ask the question again? How much money does everyone make? Why do you think that you deserve it? And why do you think that you deserve what you make more than anyone else deserves what they make? If you think that an Autoworker is overpaid, you should try taking their place on that line and try keeping up?

My knees are shot from all of the bouncing on the raised metal platforms that we work on. My shoulders are shot from the years of abuse and repetitive conditions. Many of us are crippled after all of the years of abuse. The automakers were given concession to hire replacements when we retire for $14/hr and never to catch up on wages and benefits. That's $28k/yr, If that appeals to you, go put your application in.

Unions have fought for the better working conditions that exist today, even in the non-union shops. Just look at what is still going on in the illegal sweat shops that Walmart encourages, and where they are located.

But the Unions are the reason for everything that is wrong with the world. Management can do no wrong. (Sarcasm, in case you can't tell)

Should the thread be locked? Too late! The damage is done. I've lost respect for a lot of people on this site.

Ken

[justbob]

I am a proud union plumber. My dues are only .03% of my gross wage and that is a very small amout to pay for what i get, so the negativity about them filling their pockets is hogwash! It's me filling my pockets, i stood in a line of just under 4000 applicants in 2004 with only 80 guys getting in that year and i was picked. This was by no means an easy task. It required a battery of tests, interviews in front of a tuff crowd of current and retired a**hole plumbers and officials, drugtest, and required past education and work requirements. Once in i began my five years of schooling. I feel that i deserve everything i get and more, i would never sell myself short and say i deserve less! How about we scutinize other jobs out there also? Some of you may be surprised at what other lines of work pay and might want to put your two cents in on them as well.

If it weren't for unions all of you would be working longer for less and thats a fact. Here in chicago us plumbers control 97% of work thanks to licensing laws and the non unionshops follow right along and bid work for pennies less and pay their guys about a quarter of my package for doing the same job, do you think their guys are happy about this? Plus look at their work, pay less get less, thats a fact.

Once in the union you get a real wake up call on your future, you are treated like a peice of crap and pushed so freakin hard to be the best because you are now getting paid to be the best. The days of "union breaks" and the way the public views us was left back in the seventies! Wake up and actually look at the next union jobsite you drive by and see the guys and gals busting there a** harder than most could. Its all about keeping your job and doing it to the fullest of your ability, if you can't keep up, whether it be weak, 5 or 95 degrees, stupid, or just a plain spaz you don't get the luxury of having work.

I know this is just a ranting about a totally different union but i'm sure that i touched on quite a few similarities. For those out there who have not been affected by the economy like i have and many others you are in for a wake up when the unemployment rate shoots far past any records in history. And when it comes time for you to draw unemployment and theres nothing left to give you you'll wish the gov. would have figured out some kind of a plan.

So should we bail them out? I think something needs to be done even if it was brought on by them and bad decisions. Just try to come up with something that will work and make sure it gets payed back and then some.

[Ken]

Thank you Bob.

Ken

[justbob]

No problem Ken, i usually avoid these kind of posts because they always bring the ugliness out of good people. But i'm not gonna sit back on this one when all i hear is how we get paid too much for a simple job. If you can meet the requirements to actually get the job then i dare you to try. This line of work is certainately not for the weak.

[Aren Jay]

I
...........................

[justbob]

A big +++111

[MarauderTJA]

We give "BILLIONS" to countries who hate us:mad2:..............yet will not take care, assist do whatever for our own American companies here like the auto (American) industry which supports hundreds of thousands of jobs. Instead give Wall Street the money for the hundreds of wealthy people.........thousands upon thousands of jobs are being lost costing our government billions in tax revenue....what is wrong with our Government?

[Aren Jay]

...........................

[grampaws]

Only due to the sizeof the companies do i believe they should
get anything. If it weren't for the massive effects on the rest of
the Industry I would say let them fix their own mistakes.

[justbob]

I can agree on that.

[Bigdogjim]

:PBottom line is send money to ensure we have "cool" cars in the years to come:D:banana2::burnout::lol:

[Peter]

Chrysler Canada Asks for C$1 Billion in Aid, Globe and Mail Says
By James Kraus

Nov. 20 (Bloomberg) -- Chrysler Canada Inc. has asked the Canadian and Ontario governments for $1-billion ($797 million)in aid to help the survive the crisis in the auto market, the Globe and Mail reported, citing people familiar with the discussions.
The government so far hasn't given any indication of how it might respond to requests from Chrysler LLC, Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp. for emergency aid, the newspaper reported.
The three automaker's Canadian units have asked for loans, loan guarantees, or backing for short-term borrowings, the Globe said. GM Canada officials said earlier this week that Canada should make as much as C$3.5 billion in aid available, based upon the Canadian units' share of North American automotive output, the newspaper reported.
Last Updated: November 20, 2008 04:07 EST

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=aIp5I6fpGmXI

[sluggs]

horay for congress.

now the american auto industry is taking a hit, in part, by them.

nobody wants a 200 horsepower front-wheel-drive turbo-charged impala.

lol.

but i understand it is not their fault.

its the 70's and 80's all over again.

[FreddieH]

I need a bailout, don't you? From the top down everyone will soon need a bailout. Lets see if us middle class can get one. If they give us the money we can spend it on these big companies and help bail them out. That will give us more control as consumers and less chance of them raping us again.

[Haggis]

nobody wants a 200 horsepower front-wheel-drive turbo-charged impala.

Don't be too sure about that, there was a member here that thought those wimpalas were the sh**.

[SC Cheesehead]

I want to know why the Auto bailout and the terrorism of 911 were linked together?

Did I miss the post about the $700 Billion bailout that the banks got. No strings attached evidently. It was announced a few days later that PNC bank of Pittsburg bought up National City Bank using their bailout money. Is that what they gave them the money for? How many of you work in the Banking industry?

If GM were to use the money to buy Chrysler, then valid complaint. But the government helped Chrysler survive 28 years ago, so why can't they assist again?

Another question: Who that commented or voted in the poll is going out and buying a vehicle in the near future? and why not?

Let me ask the question again? How much money does everyone make? Why do you think that you deserve it? And why do you think that you deserve what you make more than anyone else deserves what they make? If you think that an Autoworker is overpaid, you should try taking their place on that line and try keeping up?

My knees are shot from all of the bouncing on the raised metal platforms that we work on. My shoulders are shot from the years of abuse and repetitive conditions. Many of us are crippled after all of the years of abuse. The automakers were given concession to hire replacements when we retire for $14/hr and never to catch up on wages and benefits. That's $28k/yr, If that appeals to you, go put your application in.

Unions have fought for the better working conditions that exist today, even in the non-union shops. Just look at what is still going on in the illegal sweat shops that Walmart encourages, and where they are located.

But the Unions are the reason for everything that is wrong with the world. Management can do no wrong. (Sarcasm, in case you can't tell)

Should the thread be locked? Too late! The damage is done. I've lost respect for a lot of people on this site.

Ken

Ken,

I certainly meant no disrespect, and don't have any qualms about the hourly wage earned by an autoworker. What I was trying to point out is that the current legacy costs borne by the Big 3 are a big cost factor.

I also agree that overhead costs (i.e. management) are bloated. A big part of this problem is multiple brands/models, each carrying a full complement of marketing/engineering/admin staff within the organization.

I know that some of the big steel firms have rolled over pensions into 401k-type accounts, and restructuring of medical benefits for retirees has taken place. Along with this, they've made substantial changes in org. structure to sunbstantially reduce overhead costs; I guess this is what I'm invisioning as necessary for the Big Three to survive.

[Bigdogjim]

A big part of this problem is multiple brands/models, each carrying a full complement of marketing/engineering/admin staff within the organization.

This is a very large part of the problem. Good point!!

[Ken]

I know that some of the big steel firms ... restructuring of medical benefits for retirees has taken place. That was agreed to by the union 3 yrs ago next month, while I was still working. The workers agreed to defer hourly wage towards the retirees medical expenses and the retirees contribute monthly from their pension.

Ken

[CBT]

We give "BILLIONS" to countries who hate us:mad2:..............yet will not take care, assist do whatever for our own American companies here like the auto (American) industry which supports hundreds of thousands of jobs. Instead give Wall Street the money for the hundreds of wealthy people.........thousands upon thousands of jobs are being lost costing our government billions in tax revenue....what is wrong with our Government?

We give billions a year to Egypt and Israel not to nuke each off the face of the Earth, a waste of money not many people know about. Now THAT'S a racket, threaten to destroy each other so WE give them money not to. I've been to both places a few times, Israel is nicer with friendlier people, but we wouldn't be losing a whole lot if they did trip off line. Woops, this was about Unions.

[Canadasvt]

BTW, here's the graphic I was talking about. I still don't understand how that squares with Ken's 26 bucks an hour.

http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/wm2135_chart1.jpg

The problem is obvious.


How is the problem obvious?

Here are some facts and if in doubt look it up:

"Average Hourly Labor Costs" include all labor-related charges, including pensions, benefits,statutory rights, and even payroll taxes paid to government.

Direct labor costs (including management!) make up less than 10% of total vehicle costs.

North America imports over 4 million vehicles from offshore per year. The import market share has tripled since 1996, and this explains most of the loss of Detroit Three market share in the same period.

In 1979 the U.S. and Canadian governments participated in a rescue packagee to prevent Chrysler from going bankrupt. It involved guaranteeing loans from private banks, in return for certain commitments by the company. Once Chrysler recovered, the governments sold its share options for a signifcant profit. The restructuring didn't cost taxpayers a dollar - but if Chrysler had failed, the governments would have lost billions in tax revenues.

[Mongoose]

I want to know why the Auto bailout and the terrorism of 911 were linked together?


Ken
Something worth noting: The Big 3 continually contribute to communities/people/charities across America. Yet when the Big 3 are experiencing a crisis, people forget.

Not linking the bailout and 9/11, maybe one might find this of interest:CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington.The findings are as follows.....

1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions (of which the overwhelming majority were UAW & CAW members) of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team services and office space to displaced government employees.
2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions (again the overwhelming majority were UAW & CAW members) of the same number and a fleet of Vans, SUVʼs, and Trucks.
3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.
4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept.
5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.
6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.
7. Audi-Nothing.
8. BMW-Nothing.
9. Daewoo- Nothing.
10. Fiat-Nothing.
11. Honda- Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in August 2001
12. Isuzu- Nothing.
13. Mitsubishi-Nothing.
14. Nissan-Nothing.
15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche website.
16. Subaru- Nothing.
17. Suzuki- Nothing.
18. Toyota-Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001. Condolences posted on the website.

Whenever the time may be for one to purchase or lease a new vehicle, they should keep this information in mind. One might want to give more consideration to a car manufactured by the "Big 3". Apart from Hyundai and Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed nothing at all to the citizens of the United States. It's OK for these foreign companies to make money in other countries and send it back overseas, but it is apparently not acceptable to return some in a time of crisis.

[SC Cheesehead]

That was agreed to by the union 3 yrs ago next month, while I was still working. The workers agreed to defer hourly wage towards the retirees medical expenses and the retirees contribute monthly from their pension.

Ken

Ken,

Has this already gone into effect? I was of the understanding that there was still a big chunk of $ going from the companies to fund legacy costs. Any idea what % multiplier is applied to UAW wages to cover these costs? Just trying to get straight in my head, not doubting what you're saying.

And again, as I posted earlier, there's all kinds of ways the Big Three can look for cost reductions, the biggest, IMO, is still trimming total brand offerings.

Rex

[Dr Caleb]

Digging up an old thread, because this is just too good not to share:



Written By: Gregory Knox, President, Knox Machinery Company
Publication date: 01/07/2009

General Motors recent sent a letter to all its employees and suppliers containing the following plea:

Dear Employees & Suppliers,

Congress and the current Administration will soon determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation’s history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis...................... As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard. Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.

Troy Clarke President General Motors North America

The following reply was sent by Gregory Knox, president of Knox Machinery Company in Franklin, Ohio.

Gregory Knox, Pres.
Knox Machinery Company
Franklin, Ohio

Gentlemen:

In response to your request to contact legislators and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please consider the following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clark, President of General Motors North America .

Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new “messiah”, Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep “living the dream”… Believe me folks, The dream is over!

This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded “laborers” without paying the price for these atrocities…this dream where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products for ever and ever.

Don’t even think about telling me I’m wrong. Don’t accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM’s throughout the Midwest during the past 30 years and what I’ve seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.

Continued:
http://www.heartland.org/full.html?articleid=24455

[CBT]

Digging up an old thread, because this is just too good not to share:

Daaaaaaaaaaamn, I read that whole article, great stuff!

[Bluerauder]

Digging up an old thread, because this is just too good not to share:
BINGO. Thanks for that article/letter.

[Aren Jay]

.............................. ...

[Aren Jay]

.............................. ...

[Aren Jay]

.............................. ...

[Aren Jay]

.............................. ...

[Ken]

Mr Knox sure knows how to commit "business suicide", Hope that he has a backup plan.:lol:

Ken

[UAW 588]

The Revision option two.


4. Unions sticky issue. Cancel the union contracts. Executive order from your President, our Prime Minister (hard up here because our PM is weak). Change the law thus allowing the unions in failing businesses to be suspended for a period of time until the government or new company management can make a profit with said companies. Might make it limited to specifc bail out cases and certain conditions... Then allow them to re negociate after they have paid back their bail out money or they are ordering from their suppliers, profitably, and they can pay all the money back. Time limits etc...

5. Fire / replace / the Management and the workers. Want your old job reapply. No wage guarantees no seniority, no power. Your employee number xxxxxx.
Retirement pensions set at the same level for everyone.
Pay equality with similar jobs at toyota and Honda America or Canada plants.
This UNION worker has only one thing to say " BITE ME"!!!!!!!!!!! What you are suggesting is pure crazy. Are you that nuts. Give up what I have fought for, all my long career. You go work for peanuts, and do what I do on a daily basis at my plant. Oh yea, work just like the Jap transplants do, and get laid off, and hired back time after time after time again. They hire temp work and pay nothing in legacy costs. And if you are lucky enough to stay on full time, it's day by day. Better hope you don't get hurt at work, cause they will fire your butt in a heartbeat.:bs: No disrespect to Canada, but I didn't see your Goverment handing out cash. Sorry for my venting and any disrespect, but the little guy is a small piece of the puzzle. Blame the jerks in the front office for the fumble. We earn every penny with sweat, hard work, and sometimes blood. And trust me I have lost 3 brothers at my plant since being hired in. I'm sick and tired of the finger being pointed at me and my brothers and sisters. Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I've been silent for too long and had to get this off my friggin chest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad2:

[Ken]

This UNION worker has only one thing to say " BITE ME"!!!!!!!!!!! What you are suggesting is pure crazy. Are you that nuts. Give up what I have fought for, all my long career. You go work for peanuts, and do what I do on a daily basis at my plant. Oh yea, work just like the Jap transplants do, and get laid off, and hired back time after time after time again. They hire temp work and pay nothing in legacy costs. And if you are lucky enough to stay on full time, it's day by day. Better hope you don't get hurt at work, cause they will fire your butt in a heartbeat.:bs: No disrespect to Canada, but I didn't see your Goverment handing out cash. Sorry for my venting and any disrespect, but the little guy is a small piece of the puzzle. Blame the jerks in the front office for the fumble. We earn every penny with sweat, hard work, and sometimes blood. And trust me I have lost 3 brothers at my plant since being hired in. I'm sick and tired of the finger being pointed at me and my brothers and sisters. Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I've been silent for too long and had to get this off my friggin chest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad2:Well Said! We've got too many selfish people here, who only care about themselves. They feel that they're entitled to make their good money sitting around all day playing on their computers, etc, hiding behind a keyboard. They need to change places with you for one day. Bet they wouldn't last! I paid my dues, and feel the results of it everyday. If they want to take my place on the line for half the wage. I'll show them the line to sign up.

Ken

[Aren Jay]

.............................. ...

[Dr Caleb]

No disrespect to Canada, but I didn't see your Goverment handing out cash. Sorry for my venting and any disrespect, but the little guy is a small piece of the puzzle.

None taken, and also not meaning any disrespect ether, but I'll also wager you can't name our current Prime Minister. Because it doesn't make your evening news doesn't mean it doesn't exist. ;)

We are bailing out the auto sector here. 20% (or thereabouts) of the North American production is here, so ours it tied to the US bailout on a percentage of NA production basis. Something like 4 -5 billion and half a million or so job riding on it. What I don't see is any plans for Mexico to pull their weight.

And, as the article says, the little guy isn't the big problem. I'm sure most bust their ass daily. But the 6 figure bonuses for redesigning Pintos and Gremlins and the dead weight at the top just don't reflect reality.

[Dr Caleb]

All though, having all three survive and make great cars to drive would be best, for most of us.

That would be best. But, what do I know?