winter drivers get in here!

[duhtroll]

Hey - I've driven lots in the winter but my crown vic has me stumped on why it sucks so bad in snow. I have been driving in midwest winters for 22 years now -- never once been in an accident, though the 2000 CVPI I have now wants to be the first, and it wants it badly.

The MM when it had snow tires on it was one of the best cars I had ever driven in winter. I didn't even need to have extra weight in the trunk.

Anyway, the CVPI has Cooper CS4s on all 4 corners, not a snow tire but rated well for an all-season tire. I also have 200# in the trunk - 4 bags of solar salt. I just replaced the shocks.

Why is this car wanting to spin out every chance it gets? I get passed by everything on the highway now when it's wet and below freezing, or snowing or icy. I can't match the speed of anyone, even the little roller skates on street tires.

I have never owned dedicated snow tires other than the ones I had on the MM. These Coopers should be at least as good as other all-seasons. I can't believe it is just tires, but it could be.

I have enough $ in the tires that I am not switching. They are worth almost as much as the car is, so if I switch tires, it will be because they are on a different vehicle.

Suggestions?

[Egon Spengler]

I'd say buy a snow tire instead of all season! My MM plows through the snow like nothing... last year I was passing all sorts of vehicles that I thought would have passed me... including 4x4's!!! I don't know what your prob could be!

[Black Dynamite]

Unfortuantely it probably is the tires. IMO anyway. I'm stuck running the stock BFG's for winter, 200# in the trunk too and it sucks ASS on slick streets.

[Egon Spengler]

yeah I do the 200+ as well... I used plastic pellets from the company next door to the one I work at... this year I will use the wood pellets for our pellet stove and save the plastic company the hassle

[Master]

Canada chiming in here. For all season tires read: Suck in Summer AND winter. Do not use all seasons in winter. Period. Additionally, keep in mind that your MM has a posi rear end. The crown vic may have an open diff. This will help your tracking should you spin, but will also let you spin more easily.
Its not the car. Its the tires. Sell 'em to some other sucker if you have that much invested in them and pick up a set of Canadian Tire winters. Simple as that.

[Master]

PS
A complete set of good working winters is going to set you back MAYBE $400 installed and balanced in the US (That would be $600 here in Canada).

[TooManyFords]

I bet it doesn't have a limited slip diff in the rear end...

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

With a tune (with actually very mild shifts compared to how it was when I first got it), my MM was kicking the rear out doing the 1-2 shift above 1/4 throttle in the RAIN this morning. I can't imagine driving on these BFGs in ANY kind of snow. I've almost wrecked this car in rain several times on the BFG's due to too much throttle for the traction. Posi is more dangerous than open if you get it loose under power, because the open diff will have one of the 2 rear tires keeping you at least tracking straight, whereas when you lose the rear w/ a posi you skate around.

[Vortech347]

Get Real snow tires. All seasons SUCK and are just a hack job.

Would you use a shotgun with bird load to shoot a deer at 300 yards? Its all about application.

[larryo340]

All season tires are crap, they're made to work in all conditions which means that there are compromises. My Marquis with four winterforce snows and NO additional weight in the trunk plows thru everthing.

[ctrlraven]

Make sure you guys put the weight above the axle.

AS TMF said if it doesn't have a LSD it's going to spin.

All-season are not meant for snow even if they say they are. The tire compound is a lot different than of a real snow tire.

Even with my big wide 4x4 tires I will spin from a stop but I just blip the gas to get it going and then it's fine.

[bigmerc2003]

Canada chiming in here. For all season tires read: Suck in Summer AND winter. Do not use all seasons in winter. Period. Additionally, keep in mind that your MM has a posi rear end. The crown vic may have an open diff. This will help your tracking should you spin, but will also let you spin more easily.
Its not the car. Its the tires. Sell 'em to some other sucker if you have that much invested in them and pick up a set of Canadian Tire winters. Simple as that.

You beat me to it! My old truck had a LSD and was fine in the snow with crappy half bald tires, the new truck is a one legger and is horrbile!!:eek:

[duhtroll]

I had not considered the lack of a LSD. I thought all CVPIs had them. With the deal I got on this car I still would have bought it even knowing that, but like I said, I've been driving through winters for 22 years now and I'm pretty good at it -- just wondered why this particular car sucks so bad.

Given the lack of LSD, since only one tire is going to be pushing anyway, would snows make that much of a difference?

[Egon Spengler]

ok seeing as how noone is paying attention to my thread... lets do it here... you know how you should run higher PSI on the 18's to reduce the mid tread wear? What have you guys been running to prevent this from happening on the 16" wheels and tires you are running... should I be running high 30s (PSI) in my Blizzaks and Winterforces or what is specified on the doors... what kind of luck have you guys had?

[Aren Jay]

.............................. .

[CRUZTAKER]

Anyway, the CVPI has Cooper CS4s on all 4 corners, not a snow tire but rated well for an all-season tire.

There in lies your problem.

My daily driver 2003 through 2006 was crown vic.
It had had new 'all season' tires that were wonderfull in the rain and such, but when the snow started to fall, and the temps dropped below 20, those tires got hard, and turned into skis.

Every winter I swapped out the all seasons for blizzacks.
The beater vic handled wonderfully.

Depending on the snow depth, and air temperature, 'all season' tires just do not cut the mustard.

[ctrlraven]

ok seeing as how noone is paying attention to my thread... lets do it here... you know how you should run higher PSI on the 18's to reduce the mid tread wear? What have you guys been running to prevent this from happening on the 16" wheels and tires you are running... should I be running high 30s (PSI) in my Blizzaks and Winterforces or what is specified on the doors... what kind of luck have you guys had?

I haven't been running higher PSI in my 18's. I set my cold PSI to 2-3 lbs less than factory spec and tire wear has been even. Once your start driving the tire psi will increase 2-3 lbs thus giving me 35-36 lbs which is what I have found gives me the best gas mileage also

As far as winter tires I have been setting mine cold at 37 psi cause I have larger size snow tires and max psi is 51 unlike 44 psi which is on smaller tires. I'm on my 3rd winter season now with my snow tires and I can't even tell if there is any wear on them. The probably have 23-25k miles on them and still look new.


There in lies your problem.

My daily driver 2003 through 2006 was crown vic.
It had had new 'all season' tires that were wonderfull in the rain and such, but when the snow started to fall, and the temps dropped below 20, those tires got hard, and turned into skis.

Every winter I swapped out the all seasons for blizzacks.
The beater vic handled wonderfully.

Depending on the snow depth, and air temperature, 'all season' tires just do not cut the mustard.

Correct, I know several non-marauder owners who drive with BFG KDW-2's all year round and I always tell them no wonder you call me to come get you. Just using those tires as an example their minimal temp rating is 40 degrees driving in temps below that your traction is going to greatly decrease. Now some people never have a problem while others do. If the car is going to be driven in snow be smart and invest in snow tires for your safety and the safety of your ride, it doesn't mean you can still go as fast as when it's dry out.

[crabby125]

I have yet to have any problems in snow with my CV. last winter I had the stock 16" Michellein (sp) MX4 IIRC and they were great in snow with an open diff. I switched to the Stock Mustang GT 17" wheels with Pirelli Pzero Nero's and they were a bit worse but nothing dangerous. I just got the trac loc installed this summer so we will see how that works out.

Plus also I drive rediculously slow when it snows.

[Dr Caleb]

ok seeing as how noone is paying attention to my thread... lets do it here... you know how you should run higher PSI on the 18's to reduce the mid tread wear? What have you guys been running to prevent this from happening on the 16" wheels and tires you are running... should I be running high 30s (PSI) in my Blizzaks and Winterforces or what is specified on the doors... what kind of luck have you guys had?

I don't run my MM in the winter, but if you are running narrower tires in winter, I don't think it would be necessary to overpressure them.

The reason you have to run the 255's at 40+ is because the tires stretch from the centre under high torque, and the centres wear out. Narrower tires such as 225 or 235 I don't think would do this as pronounced.

[offroadkarter]

I had not considered the lack of a LSD. I thought all CVPIs had them. With the deal I got on this car I still would have bought it even knowing that, but like I said, I've been driving through winters for 22 years now and I'm pretty good at it -- just wondered why this particular car sucks so bad.

Given the lack of LSD, since only one tire is going to be pushing anyway, would snows make that much of a difference?


3.55/LSD in a P71 is a rare option, many departments dont see it as needed.

Put in 3.55 gears and a LSD, change the speedo gear, and not only will your CV be better in the snow, it will be better to drive :)

[offroadkarter]

Plus also I drive rediculously slow .


Fixed!!!! :D

[crabby125]

Fixed!!!! :D

I cant argue with that.

The State of NJ wants me to drive slow since they are tired of repairing the roads whenever I decided to mash the pedal.

[justbob]

Stock bfg tires with 30 pounds of air, 350-400 pounds weight in rear, a working limitted slip diff.

Mine doesn't have T/C.

[bigmerc2003]

3.55/LSD in a P71 is a rare option, many departments dont see it as needed.

Put in 3.55 gears and a LSD, change the speedo gear, and not only will your CV be better in the snow, it will be better to drive :)

Isnt the standard P71 gear an open 3.27?

3.55 would be a huge improvement, I have driven a 4.6 2v GM with the 3.27 and it is a dog!

[Jake Steel]

i have a 04 MM silver birch,i bought some 16" steelies and put on COOPER CS4'S I HAVE ABOUT 100# IN THE TRUNK,when the roads are bad or when it's snowing in the city i take the overdrive off and turn the traction control off and i get around just GREATbut when im driving on the highway i put the o/d on and traction control off and away i go no problems......good luck

[CROWNMARAUDER]

I have 235/55HR17 Cooper Lifeliner SLE'S on my crown vic sport & I have never had a problem with traction the last two winters.

[duhtroll]

Damn, I knew I shoulda gone with snow tires year round on this thing, but my mechanic's parts guy talked me into Coopers.

They ARE very good in summer and are exceptionally quiet and smooth, but I neglected to realize at the time that high mileage (they are 70K warranty) means harder tire and therefore "a$$" in snow.

Oh well, live, learn, etc..

Anyone want some really good Coopers? :o They're uh, all-season...

[duhtroll]

:lol: :lol:

This is a beater - it already has 135K on the clock. I bought it so that if I DO end up in the ditch I'm not kicking myself for being in the MM. Or if I get hit by some other moron on ice I am not going to die because the CV is a friggin' tank. :)

Like I said - the tires are worth more than the car. Well, not really but you get the idea.


3.55/LSD in a P71 is a rare option, many departments dont see it as needed.

Put in 3.55 gears and a LSD, change the speedo gear, and not only will your CV be better in the snow, it will be better to drive :)

[Aren Jay]

.............................. .

[lucenti]

nothing to worry bout, ice skating in a Marauder is a moment to remember. snow over ice, inside lane street, 4 lanes. car in front hits brakes I turn left to next lane. MM crosses over to on comming traffic. starts at front door while in a spin and ends at rear door which i may add ended the spin, and we rolled strait to the curb.. that will wake yu up in the morning !!!!!

[Bradley G]

I switched the wheels/tires over to the snow season(Blizzack), anything else other than dedicated snow,ice, is not even close.
I read up on the new Coopers CS4s', they are rated excellent and pricey!
This is the fourth winter I have driven the Marauder through.
The 4X4s' are usually pizzed & suprised, when I leave them in the Marauders' dust :burnout:
I did have a little steering wheel shake at speed, so I remounted & balanced the tires.
The car rides extremely well now and the tires are amazingly quiet.

[Eric91Z]

Couple things from this thread:

- Like everyone else said, there is no comparison between an All-Season in the Winter vs. a true Winter tire

- Next, I would NEVER run a dedicated winter tire year round as it will wear VERY quickly in the hotter months

- Your 2000 may or may not have a LSD and might have 3.55 gears. My '03 CVPI does have the LSD, but only a 3.27 gear (soon to be changed to 3.73). If you still have the door sticker get the "Axle" code and we can tell you which gear and if it has a LSD or not.

- Both my Marauder and my CVPI have been good winter cars. I did two winters in the Marauder with Pirelli Scorpion Snow and Ice tires and no weight and never had a problem. Ran those same tires on the CVPI last year with only 70 lbs in the trunk with no problems. Got new Blizzak WS-60's this year and so far they have been EXCELLENT this winter. I have no added weight in the trunk this year, but don't need it with the stereo equipment back there now. Just that and a full tank of gas and no traction control and I have had no problems.


With dedicated winter tires these cars are great in the winter. Especially if you know how to drive (which sounds like you do) these cars will get you about anywhere you want - within reason!

[duhtroll]

Under "Axle" on the door sticker it reads R2.




- Your 2000 may or may not have a LSD and might have 3.55 gears. My '03 CVPI does have the LSD, but only a 3.27 gear (soon to be changed to 3.73). If you still have the door sticker get the "Axle" code and we can tell you which gear and if it has a LSD or not.

[Eric91Z]

Under "Axle" on the door sticker it reads R2.

R2 shows to be a "3.55 conventional on 98+ Crown Vic/Gran Marquis". So you have 3.55 gears, but no LSD - at least that is how it came from the factory.

[ctrlraven]

I switched the wheels/tires over to the snow season(Winterforce), anything else, is not even close.
I read up on the new Coopers CS4s', they are rated excellent and pricey!
This is the fourth winter I have driven the Marauder through.
The 4X4s' are usually pizzed & suprised, when I leave them in the Marauders' dust :burnout:
I did have a little steering wheel shake at speed, so I remounted & balanced the tires.
The car rides extremely well now and the tires are amazingly quiet.

Winterforce FTW. The only thing I don't like about them is they are directional tires so rotating doesn't happen but having a directional winter tire is a plus though.

[Marawder]

Another Canadian perspective, having driven Mustangs in winter for over 20+ years, all I did was a dedicated set of snows on steelies. Never had to put anything in the trunk except what was supposed to go in - my hockey gear! Only got stuck once, and my cousin's Grand Cherokee ALMOST got stuck that day, so it shows how bad it was.

Anyway, any car - rear-front or all-wheel drive should run SNOWS in the winter. Your own personal safety depends on having the best you can manage underneath you. My wife's Mazda5 even runs snows on steels.

I have snows on my Marauder and it's a bear in the snow. I can outrun just about anything running all-seasons from a stop (under normal acceleration, not racing), just because of the snows. And no extra weight is needed in the trunk - again just the hockey gear!

One thing no one has discussed is the car wanting to spin out. This is not just because of the non-LSD rear, or the all-seasons. It is the extra mass in the trunk. You have upset the natural balance of the car and increased the polar moment inertia equation. Think of a baton twirling. Heavy at both ends. When it starts to spin, it's hard to stop it. This is why mid-engine cars are so agile and tend not to spin, as they have a low polar moment.

Get rid of the extra mass in the trunk and invest in the tires. If you were in an accident, you've got all that stuff back there that'll want to come through the back seat, which is not safe.

[duhtroll]

I thought the reason for the car wanting to spin out is the rear end breaking loose due to lack of traction. Getting rid of the weight back there makes it worse, not better -- that much I do know.

Unless something mechanical can be causing more bouncing around back there?

I chose the bags of salt because they fit in the trunk well perfectly without any sliding around. Well, and I use them for the water softener every couple months.




One thing no one has discussed is the car wanting to spin out. This is not just because of the non-LSD rear, or the all-seasons. It is the extra mass in the trunk. You have upset the natural balance of the car and increased the polar moment inertia equation. Think of a baton twirling. Heavy at both ends. When it starts to spin, it's hard to stop it. This is why mid-engine cars are so agile and tend not to spin, as they have a low polar moment.

Get rid of the extra mass in the trunk and invest in the tires. If you were in an accident, you've got all that stuff back there that'll want to come through the back seat, which is not safe.

[offroadking208]

Hey - I've driven lots in the winter but my crown vic has me stumped on why it sucks so bad in snow. I have been driving in midwest winters for 22 years now -- never once been in an accident, though the 2000 CVPI I have now wants to be the first, and it wants it badly.

The MM when it had snow tires on it was one of the best cars I had ever driven in winter. I didn't even need to have extra weight in the trunk.

Anyway, the CVPI has Cooper CS4s on all 4 corners, not a snow tire but rated well for an all-season tire. I also have 200# in the trunk - 4 bags of solar salt. I just replaced the shocks.

Why is this car wanting to spin out every chance it gets? I get passed by everything on the highway now when it's wet and below freezing, or snowing or icy. I can't match the speed of anyone, even the little roller skates on street tires.

I have never owned dedicated snow tires other than the ones I had on the MM. These Coopers should be at least as good as other all-seasons. I can't believe it is just tires, but it could be.

I have enough $ in the tires that I am not switching. They are worth almost as much as the car is, so if I switch tires, it will be because they are on a different vehicle.

Suggestions?

Idk about suggestions, but i have the same problem. 2000 CVPI sucks in the snow. And mine even has a trac-lok differential. about 200lbs over the rear axle and its still slower than everything else on the road. Running Goodyear Eagle RS/A's. 4 New tires and it doesnt matter, lol. I feel your pain friend.

[Thunderace]

good snow tires mounted on steelies have made a noticeable difference on our gmarq w/no weight and our saturn for many years now,they both are great in the snow,if you get snow you need snowies!! good luck

[Bradley G]

Sorry, I gave wrong info. I have the Blizzacks.
I remember the tech telling me that they are not directional tires.
Winterforce FTW. The only thing I don't like about them is they are directional tires so rotating doesn't happen but having a directional winter tire is a plus though.

[duhtroll]

Y'all just want me to spend mo' money.

Tires or a new flat screen TV?

[lucenti]

go with the tv.. keep the bags

[OneBADLsE]

All season tires are crap, they're made to work in all conditions which means that there are compromises. My Marquis with four winterforce snows and NO additional weight in the trunk plows thru everthing.


Goodyear Integrities. 75 a piece and went through everything. Handled well on ice as too

[larryo340]

Goodyear Integrities. 75 a piece and went through everything. Handled well on ice as too
What I meant I was the car would drive like there wasn't snow on the ground. I could drive almost "normal" in the snow, talking blizzard type snow not just a couple inches. If I hit the gas hard while driving the tires would break loose then grab and go, and it would turn amazingly well. :burn:

I can't see a tire like the Integrity do that.

[Ms. Denmark]

Great thread , great information from everyone. So to sum up.....I've got Scorpions on steelies ready to go on my Marauder. Should I be adding extra weight in the trunk? How much? Seems like there may be two schools of thought.

[Bradley G]

Only if you absolutely have to.
I vote ; no x-tra weight.
The Scorpions at the right weight (PSI) you should be golden.
It is harder to go, stop & steer with the additional weight.

Great thread , great information from everyone. So to sum up.....I've got Scropions on steelies ready to go on my Marauder. Should I be adding extra weight in the trunk? How much? Seems like there may be two schools of thought.

[Ms. Denmark]

Only if you absolutely have to.
I vote ; no x-tra weight.
The Scorpions at the right weight (PSI) you should be golden.
It is harder to go, stop & steer with the additional weight. Thanks! :) And I corrected my spelling mistake.:o

[Aren Jay]

.............................. .

[Master]

Yes, we do want you to spend more money. We need to get out of this recession. No, we don't want you to buy an LCD TV instead of winters on steelies. You'd only end up watching the little black and white 8" from your hospital bed anyway.
Agree with polar moment in theory. The math is right, but as a percentage of total weight it is more likely to have a beneficial effect through downforce and less for angular acceleration unless you've really screwed up, at which point you've probably got yourself into more trouble than can be attributed to the 100# or so. Regardless, for the first year I drove my MM on winter/steelies, I added no weight to the truck other than the bari sax or hockey gear (sensing a trend from the Canadian contingent?) and the things was a tank. Always turned the trac off around the city as it was designed by some Yank in a lab, not a Canadian in winter. Way too sensitive. I'd have turned off the abs around town if I could have, too. I leave them on on the highway just in case I have a lapse in attention at the wrong moment. Too much black ice with too many lakes right next to the highway. Apart from that, I do nothing else to the car. Well, now I store it of course.
Just once more, let me stress that launch traction goes way up with lsd so you won't be spinning as much, but you MUST be more cautious as control becomes an issue - especially on ice at highway speeds. Things happen WAY too fast when both tires suddenly lose traction.
Best advice? Good rubber, slow driving, moderate steering/braking inputs and stay home if the police or emerg services tell you to.
It gives me more space on the roads in the 4x4! :)

[Aren Jay]

.............................. .

[Master]

x2. Agreed.

[TJCOX]

Idk about suggestions, but i have the same problem. 2000 CVPI sucks in the snow. And mine even has a trac-lok differential. about 200lbs over the rear axle and its still slower than everything else on the road. Running Goodyear Eagle RS/A's. 4 New tires and it doesnt matter, lol. I feel your pain friend.

:burnout:If it's a performance tire it doesn't work well in the snow..Softer compounds
are better. Had the Goodyear Pollyglass on my Torino and it had no traction
whatsoever. Taking off in DRIVE 2 helps alot. If you get into a slide or can't make a turn ,try shifting to neutral before the turn help also.:burnout:

tom

[JVJ]

Mine does not see any snow, nor the cold. It waits for the warm weather to prowl again. F the snow & the cold!!!!

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8295/mybannerblinky9ca240d57zx6.gif (http://www.mybannermaker.com/link.php?nurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .mybannermaker.com)