12s N/A possible?

[Mest30]

Looking through the timeslips, there is only one N/A Marauder in the 12s and he had a 5.0 Big Bore DOHC V8. The next closes to his 12.9 is a 13.5. Are 12s N/A possible on a 4.6L Marauder? What mods need to be done? Why has nobody done it?

[DOOM]

You be the first :D

[Mest30]

I would be the first, but I'm pretty from that.

[Joe Walsh]

Barry (Cruztaker) has come the closest so far on a 4.6L engine.

I believe that he ran 13.2s before he went to a power adder on his 4.6L engine.
IIRC it was on an OEM engine also!

Maybe he can elaborate on his mods...

Getting a 4400 lb automatic sedan to run 12s on 281 naturally aspirated cubic inches is a REAL feat!

It is possible....with head work, cams, gears, many other mods and lots of rpm to make up for missing torque.
How much money do you have to put into a 4.6 DOHC???

[Mest30]

I'd love to get there eventually but it's going to take a while. We'll see where I'm at this spring with my latest mods, a torque converter and TB port matched to the plenum.

[Embassy]

I'd love to get there eventually but it's going to take a while. We'll see where I'm at this spring with my latest mods, a torque converter and TB port matched to the plenum.

Did you pick up Mongoose's TC?

[Aren Jay]

.............................. .......

[Mest30]

Did you pick up Mongoose's TC?

Yes I did.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Too much $$ to get the car to run a mere 12 something, thats why a power adder is so sought after on these.

Someone needs to find a way to toss twin turbos in one of these mofo's.

[Mest30]

Ctrlraven in only 13.7?

Nitrous might get you there.

That would kind of defeat the purpose of running 12s N/A.

[CRUZTAKER]

Barry (Cruztaker) has come the closest so far on a 4.6L engine.

I believe that he ran 13.2s before he went to a power adder on his 4.6L engine.
IIRC it was on an OEM engine also!

Yes.
Stock motor with no forced induction.

Very cool evening, using a Lidio tune for 110 octane.
I had all the basic bolt-ons with 4:10 gears. I was using a 3000 stall and the j-mod on the trans. I was also running worn slick 295 Pirelli street tires.

With slicks, I believe I could have broke into the 12 second area that evening. She ran 13.2xx all evening hot lapping.

[Blackened300a]

That would kind of defeat the purpose of running 12s N/A.


Cruztaker was the fastest on a stock internal N/A engine. I have most every bolt-on except headers and a race gas tune. My fastest is a 13.6@99mph. I hope to have headers and a strong tune when I make my next run for the N/A title.

All of my mods are in my garage link on my sig.

[Mest30]

Cruztaker, can you be more specific about your bolt ons? Did you have exhaust work done? How much of a difference does 110 octane make?

[Vortech347]

4.56's. A good exhaust, intake, high octane tune with correct fuel, slicks, basic weight reduction, Pulleys, electric water pump, spacer, just about ever N/A addon.

Should be possible. The KEY ingredient is the gears... 4.10's arn't nearly enough for an N/A marauder. I was planning on 4.30's in mine but I didn't because I had a reality check with how much I drive it.

[freakstatus]

Interesting thread....I shall watch it closely.:popcorn:

[Blk Mamba]

Too much $$ to get the car to run a mere 12 something, thats why a power adder is so sought after on these.

Someone needs to find a way to toss twin turbos in one of these mofo's.

There is a mustang twin turbo kit available for the mustang, I'm sure that it could be altered enough to work, the problem is that it mounts at the tail pipe.

[sd8683]

It is my dream to run 12's N/A!!! But is highly unlikely due to lack of funds :(

[Vortech347]

Some steeper gears with that high stall in your car you'd be surprised how it would run.

[OneBADLsE]

There is a mustang twin turbo kit available for the mustang, I'm sure that it could be altered enough to work, the problem is that it mounts at the tail pipe.


Is that the PTK kit?

[ctrlraven]

Ctrlraven in only 13.7?

Nitrous might get you there.
I did 13.7 with minor bolt-ons, stock gears, weakened stock diff. No juice for me and I will have low 13's with a stock motor.


That would kind of defeat the purpose of running 12s N/A.
Yeah I know right lol.

I still have full exhaust (LT headers & bigger exhaust piping), 4.10 gears, pulleys and whatever else left to do. 4.10 gears, axle rebuild and bigger cat-back piping will be going on Jan/Feb just in time for racing in March and I can't forget I will have to get another awesome tune by Zack

[Blackened300a]

I did 13.7 with minor bolt-ons, stock gears, weakened stock diff. No juice for me and I will have low 13's with a stock motor.


Yeah I know right lol.

I still have full exhaust (LT headers & bigger exhaust piping), 4.10 gears, pulleys and whatever else left to do. 4.10 gears, axle rebuild and bigger cat-back piping will be going on Jan/Feb just in time for racing in March and I can't forget I will have to get another awesome tune by Zack

Your my target. I hope to have exhaust as well. We shall se what happens in march!

[Mest30]

Hey, I could be a sleeper in this race. My 14.46 came with 5 year old tires. My Nitto 420s and a Zack tune has got to be worth two tenths if I can hook. The TB and converter could also put me in the mid 13s. And that's w/o touching the exhaust yet.

[Pops]

Good luck guys! Once you get in the mid to upper 13s it gets real hard to gain. The 4.56 gears sound like the best way to me. You will need good tires at that point.

The dollars spent to make a 12 second NA car would go a long ways towards adding the power adder. I will be watching as you guys make a run at it!

John

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

It sounds like it could barely be done, but you would ruin the streetability of a 4 door in the process. And to me the whole point of a 4 door is streetability. So forced induction gives you power and streetability.

[sd8683]

Hey, I could be a sleeper in this race. My 14.46 came with 5 year old tires. My Nitto 420s and a Zack tune has got to be worth two tenths if I can hook. The TB and converter could also put me in the mid 13s. And that's w/o touching the exhaust yet.


I did 13.7 with minor bolt-ons, stock gears, weakened stock diff. No juice for me and I will have low 13's with a stock motor.


Yeah I know right lol.

I still have full exhaust (LT headers & bigger exhaust piping), 4.10 gears, pulleys and whatever else left to do. 4.10 gears, axle rebuild and bigger cat-back piping will be going on Jan/Feb just in time for racing in March and I can't forget I will have to get another awesome tune by Zack


Your my target. I hope to have exhaust as well. We shall se what happens in march!

Oh I'm in on this too!!! I should have my headers installed by march:D my car feels real strong as is....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgr7SVpsYUw

I'm on the left, as you can see he clearly kills me from a dig!! But I hold my own after, you can hear me chirp second gear if you listen closely:D Plus you can see he is in boost when his (KB-Marauder-S) meth light kicks on.

This should be a fun spring!!!

[Mest30]

It sounds like it could barely be done, but you would ruin the streetability of a 4 door in the process. And to me the whole point of a 4 door is streetability. So forced induction gives you power and streetability.


There is a member on CVN running 13.41 N/A with an 01 vic. That's faster than every N/A Marauder other than Joe's. He might be trying to get to 12s N/A (that or just spraying). If he can do it, Marauders can do it.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

I'd be curious what his gas mileage is, if the low end torque curve is maintained, what the idle speed is, if the car will still pass an emissions sniffer test, etc.

[Vortech347]

Gear them *****es!!!!

[freakstatus]

I believe Red lists mid 13's on his signature N/A as well.

[Blackened300a]

Hey, I could be a sleeper in this race. My 14.46 came with 5 year old tires. My Nitto 420s and a Zack tune has got to be worth two tenths if I can hook. The TB and converter could also put me in the mid 13s. And that's w/o touching the exhaust yet.

Cold air is key. I went to the track in the summer and couldn't run faster then a 14.3. In the fall I was running a best of 14.0. The last time I ran was in 40 degree temps and pulled the 13.6. Nothing was done to the car expect the change in temps. I launched the same and kept the same PSI in the rear tires.

BTW, the throttlebody netted me 1RWHP and 3RWTQ and about 5hp across the range on the dyno. The convertor will be the biggest help to you.

[FormulaMarauder]

I'm curious about my times now as is with my mods. Wonder what it'll take to get to the 12's NA.
I'm guessing a TC and some Metco arms would get me pretty close with some drag radials and cool temps. What do you guys think, good assumption considering my mods?

[Glenn]

Fellows - save your money toward a SC - it just is not going to happen!!

Glenn

[sd8683]

Fellows - save your money towad a SC - it just is not going to happen!!

Glenn


Thanks for giving us all more incentive to do it :)

[Blackened300a]

Fellows - save your money towad a SC - it just is not going to happen!!

Glenn

That kinda talk feeds motovation.

I figure the full exhaust, a good race gas tune, traction and real good air would put my car on the edge of 12's. It would be a freak run but it may be possible.

[Pops]

That kinda talk feeds motovation.

I figure the full exhaust, a good race gas tune, traction and real good air would put my car on the edge of 12's. It would be a freak run but it may be possible.

Paul you need that good air they had at Cecil county this fall. Plus that track is at sea level. Good luck to all of you guys who are trying! ;)

[Glenn]

You will probably need close to 400 RWHP to cut 12's. It just is not going to happen!! Save your money toward a SC and run 11's and still have a perfectly streetable car.

Glenn Ford

[Blackened300a]

Paul you need that good air they had at Cecil county this fall. Plus that track is at sea level. Good luck to all of you guys who are trying! ;)

Thanks! Ill be coming to you for advice when the N/A run for 12's officially begins.

[Master]

Untuned we were at about 340/340 in the 4.6, so still along way to go to 400. And that was with some pretty major mods.

[sd8683]

You will probably need close to 400 RWHP to cut 12's. It just is not going to happen!! Save your money toward a SC and run 11's and still have a perfectly streetable car.

Glenn Ford


According to pauls signature he has 293RWHP..... And he ran a 13.6, sooooo... Your saying he's gonna need 107 more RWHP to make up 7 tenths of a second... I don't think so!!

[Blackened300a]

According to pauls signature he has 293RWHP..... And he ran a 13.6, sooooo... Your saying he's gonna need 107 more RWHP to make up 7 tenths of a second... I don't think so!!

Every 10 RWHP is a tenth, every 100lbs is a tenth. Gearing, TC, and tranny tuning take off tenths without any added power. Just getting the weight down, rear ratio or getting the right tune may make the difference.

I always ran my car at the track the way I run in the street, spare, headlight, and trunk organizer all left in.

[FordNut]

It may be possible with enough $$$. Barry was closest @ 13.2, I believe I made it down to 13.4 and we were both very heavily modified, putting down about 300-320 rwhp. That's about all you're gonna get NA with standard displacement. Then after all that work somebody bolts a blower on an otherwise stocker and smokes you.

[CRUZTAKER]

You will probably need close to 400 RWHP to cut 12's. It just is not going to happen!! Save your money toward a SC and run 11's and still have a perfectly streetable car.

Glenn Ford

Uhh..it damn near already has happened, and I did it on 302 RWHP.
Also, 13.2 NA yielded me more than a handfull of Trilogy kills in Indianapolis.:cool:

Back on topic...



Cruztaker, can you be more specific about your bolt ons? Did you have exhaust work done? How much of a difference does 110 octane make?

KOOKS long tube SS headers
Free flow Cats, X-Pipe, 18” Magnaflow Mufflers
2.5 inch exhaust & Megs open tips
Intake spacer
PHP cold air kit
Motorcraft cooler plugs - 180 stat
Royal Purple engine oil
Superchips 4 pos. chip / Tuning for race fuel excess of 100 octane
P.I. Stallion 3000 stall converter
Transmission J-Mod - oem fluids
Dynotech MMC PI Driveshaft + Loop
Hurst Line Loc / Roll Control
Auburn High Performance LSD
Ford Motor Sports 4:10 Gear
Addco sway bar & polyurethane bushings
M&Z solid Control Arms
Eibach Springs
Sticky tires (spent Pirelli 295's)
Spare tire and excess weight removed

Left headlight removed
Air temps at or below 60 degrees
Track properly prepped out to 1000'

[CRUZTAKER]

According to pauls signature he has 293RWHP..... And he ran a 13.6, sooooo... Your saying he's gonna need 107 more RWHP to make up 7 tenths of a second... I don't think so!!

You don't....

I dyno'd 302 to the rear on 94 octane.

I never dyno'd with my race fuel, but I know Lidio added atleast 5 to the spark for my 114 tune. That alone HAD to have added 30 hp to my equation taking me around 330+ NA.

These blower guys are just jealous. I only make like 425 or so without the NOS and run mid 12's all day. I'm not embarrassed to admit it.

I only got a blower because I want to whistle while I work.:P
Note...whistle...not whine.:(

My NA car was plenty fast with 330 rwhp.

Next year I'll show you all what can be done with only 425 rwhp.
And trust me...an ELEVEN won't be in the number.:D

[merc]

You don't....

I dyno'd 302 to the rear on 94 octane.

I never dyno'd with my race fuel, but I know Lidio added atleast 5 to the spark for my 114 tune. That alone HAD to have added 30 hp to my equation taking me around 330+ NA.

These blower guys are just jealous. I only make like 425 or so without the NOS and run mid 12's all day. I'm not embarrassed to admit it.

I only got a blower because I want to whistle while I work.:P
Note...whistle...not whine.:(

My NA car was plenty fast with 330 rwhp.

Next year I'll show you all what can be done with only 425 rwhp.
And trust me...an ELEVEN won't be in the number.:D


I am all ears Barry. Puff Puff pass :rasta: Once you reach 12's you will want 11's then 10's. It a terrible addiction.

[Glenn]

I repeat - no 4.6 NA MM is going to break into the 12's and still be a streetable car - it just is not going to happen - period. NO one has done it in 5 years - some close, but no cigar. Put your money in a SC and save yourself a lot of grief.

Glenn :burnout:

[CRUZTAKER]

I am all ears Barry. Puff Puff pass :rasta: Once you reach 12's you will want 11's then 10's. It a terrible addiction.

Passing the....

The addiction on man. ;)

[sd8683]

I repeat - no 4.6 NA MM is going to break into the 12's and still be a streetable car - it just is not going to happen - period. NO one has done it in 5 years - some close, but no cigar. Put your money in a SC and save yourself a lot of grief.

Glenn :burnout:


Well negativity won't stop me! Hopefullly it won't stop the others. Check out the new movie that stars Jim Carey! Its called YES MAN.

[Merc-O-matic]

Thanks for giving us all more incentive to do it :)

Here is some more incentive for you..."It ain't gonna happen"!

Gotta Love It!:flamer:

[Mest30]

I repeat - no 4.6 NA MM is going to break into the 12's and still be a streetable car - it just is not going to happen - period. NO one has done it in 5 years - some close, but no cigar. Put your money in a SC and save yourself a lot of grief.

Glenn :burnout:

I dont know, Cruztaker got a 13.2 with 4.10s, a 3k stall converter and no throttle body. If what people are saying is correct, 4.56s and a 32-3500 stall converter might have done the trick. There are several other things he could have done, too, like port the upper and lower intake, cams, etc. It's defineitly possible. As far as being a streetable car, well, we'll have to wait and see.

[Vortech347]

I repeat - no 4.6 NA MM is going to break into the 12's and still be a streetable car - it just is not going to happen - period. NO one has done it in 5 years - some close, but no cigar. Put your money in a SC and save yourself a lot of grief.

Glenn :burnout:


Glenn you're usually a pretty smart guy... That is totally un-true statement.

I'll tell ya a very easy setup to do and you'd see 12's all day in an MM.

Basic weight reduction... (spare tire/jack, all the crap you have in the trunk)
4.56's, Ported FR500 heads with either FR500 or comp cams. FR500 intake or sheetmetal style. OR factory heads that have been slightly milled to up the comp. A good exhaust system. Pulley's, ect... all the basic stuff everyone has here in their signatures. LOL A 3000 stall converter with good tires but not oversized and good track prep... Some 275 Mickey Drag Radials or Nitto 305's would be perfect.

I've rode in a Cobra with a stock shortblock and all the FR500 goodies. SOB made 374rwhp and idled at 750rpms smoothly.

There has only been like 2 people on this forum who have even REALLY spent the proper coin and parts building a good N/A car. Everyone else takes the easy way out and throws boost at it. Face it. Its just easier to do that.

But to say that its not possible is BS. I know for a fact an N/A stock shortblocked MM could hit 12's no problem.

No one in 5 years has done it because lets face it. Other than 3-4 people that have hardcore MM's everyone else does the "easy stuff" that takes 10 minutes in the driveway to do and thinks thats "modded". Most people bought these cars for cruisers that can go fast, not for a 1/4 mile purpose and don't mod them for that.

[gmtech]

always wondered why there arent many fast N/A MM's. you see some crown vic's w/ built 2v's running faster than most blown 4V MM's. Most of the Mach 1 guys are N/A. With full bolt on's they range from 350-385 rwhp. i know we have added weight but the motor is still capable of more than most of us put thru it N/A. i say go for it and do something different.:beer:

[Pops]

I think way more than a couple of the members have tried it! You can do all the things you have suggested Vortech347. It comes down to the fact that you could SC for less money! I tried to get the GM in the low 13s and did not do the so called driveway tricks. A lot of thought and money was spent on the car with a plan. Most of us have tried using stock motors and you run into a brick wall. it makes very little sense to try when you can do a power adder and go much faster. If you need speed it is the most you can get for your money! AS far as removing weight you are not going to get much out of the car and keep it a daily driver. These are not Mustangs. Most of us on the board look at the SSHS rules and use those as a guideline. If you want a race car go build one, I am!

[Aren Jay]

.............................. .......

[FordNut]

NO one has done it in 5 years - some close, but no cigar.

That's ^^^ the bottom line. Man of us have spend bucketloads of money to try and do it N/A. We tried for years and years to get faster and nobody with stock displacement ever did it. But we did get tired of running 13's. So c'mon guys, show us old timers how to do it. I'll believe it when I see it.

[sd8683]

Here is some more incentive for you..."It ain't gonna happen"!

Gotta Love It!:flamer:


Another negative Nancy!! Booooo!!!!

[Joe Walsh]

Just for the record:

My (NON-stock displacement) 5.0 runs 12.9s with 3.55 gears.

I've run multiple 12s* in cool weather with 16" Drag radials giving me an effective rear ratio of 3.89. (*with No weight reductions)

If I had 4.10 gears and the 16" Drag Radials I would have been even deeper into the 12s.

I am running a less than perfect 93 octane tune and I am shifting at 6100 rpm.

In regards to the HP needed to run 12s in a Marauder: I am putting down 325 RWHP/340RWTQ.

That having been said....I think that a 4.6 prepped and modded the way Vortech347 outlined could crack the 12s.

Again, you are going to need some serious RPM and gears.

[Joe Walsh]

Yes.
Stock motor with no forced induction.

Very cool evening, using a Lidio tune for 110 octane.
I had all the basic bolt-ons with 4:10 gears. I was using a 3000 stall and the j-mod on the trans. I was also running worn slick 295 Pirelli street tires.
With slicks, I believe I could have broke into the 12 second area that evening. She ran 13.2xx all evening hot lapping.

Barry, Do you know what your 60 ft times were when you ran those 13.2s?
I'd like to compare them to my 60 ft times (run with 16" BFG Drag Radials) and see what the difference might have been...

[Blackened300a]

I suppose it depends what you call NA and what you call a mod.

You could make a hybrid Marauder that adds extra Low end push off the line. It would still be NA but a mighty expensive mod. Make it back in gas money in ten years, just in time to buy new batteries.

or

Make a lightweight tube or titanium or carbon fibre frame with a Bored out 4.2L V8, quick release wiring and a ton of mods, then unbolt your frame and bolt on the race frame. But then you are not really a Marauder anymore.

I say just forget about 12's given that 12.99 isn't really a 12 second run, 12.0 12.1 12.2 is 12.5 12.6 is a 12 and a half second run and 12.99 is a fast 13 second run.

Just STFU, you dont know what the hell you are talking about. If I run a 13.99, thats considered a 13 second run according to everyone including the track officials and Ill need a helmet. A tenth when it comes to the 1/4 mile is a huge difference. a 12.99 is still a benchmark for any N/A marauder. Thats still considered a 12 second run by everyone.


My goal is a stock internal N/A Marauder to break into the 12's. Cruztaker is the guy to beat at the moment for stock internals but a pipe dream would be to beat Joe's worked N/A car.

[Blk Mamba]

Is that the PTK kit?

I don't remember, there was an incomplete kit for sale on ebay about 6 months ago, $2500, wish I had the cash then. I never liked turbo's in their early years, but now that they are more refined I'd be interested.

[FordNut]

Oh, I did run a 12.7 N/A, but that was with the 5.3 big bore/stroker after I pulled the ProCharger off. It had 360rwhp at the time.

[CRUZTAKER]

Just for the record:

My (NON-stock displacement) 5.0 runs 12.9s with 3.55 gears.

I've run multiple 12s* in cool weather with 16" Drag radials giving me an effective rear ratio of 3.89. (*with No weight reductions)

If I had 4.10 gears and the 16" Drag Radials I would have been even deeper into the 12s.

I am running a less than perfect 93 octane tune and I am shifting at 6100 rpm.

In regards to the HP needed to run 12s in a Marauder: I am putting down 325 RWHP/340RWTQ.

That having been said....I think that a 4.6 prepped and modded the way Vortech347 outlined could crack the 12s.

Again, you are going to need some serious RPM and gears.

Thank you.

Some one with some REAL credibility adding 2c. :bows:

Where's Zack when we need him...doh...that's right...:shake:


Barry, Do you know what your 60 ft times were when you ran those 13.2s?
I'd like to compare them to my 60 ft times (run with 16" BFG Drag Radials) and see what the difference might have been...

1.69 IN THE HOUSE!


Just STFU, you dont know what the hell you are talking about. ....

Damnit you defeated the ignore list purpose in life again.:D
Just ignore the boy looking for an apartment and a garage big enough to house "looking at a boat" already.


Does anyone else see the trend here?
It's the Trilogy blown owners that are in denial here.
We the former faster NA owners turned forced induction vortech are believers...it's the throw down 6k on 16% credit line to run high 12's guys that are in denial. :baaa:

VORTECH: Affordible enough to pay cash...and STILL run 12's.

[Constable]

Just STFU, you dont know what the hell you are talking about.

HAHAHA!!!! I'm laughing like a nut at 3am and my girl is yelling at me for waking her up.

And... someone will do it on a stock motor. I was a believer as an owner, and still am. Hell, it only takes three mods to get to 13.70 at sea-level (4.10's, LT's, cone filter). Add a converter & slicks for low-low 13's. Then you just have to figure out the last tenth or two (elec water pump, pullies, skinnies, disconnect sway bar, etc...).

Might sound like I'm "over-simplifying" the feat, but that's the way I feel about it. When I get my hands on another 'Rauder I have my setup all picked out.

[Motorhead350]

You can do it with a Chevy engine.

[ctrlraven]

You can do it with a Chevy engine.

So why didn't you install one in your car?

Sherman is proof enough of what our cars can do with the right parts, tuning, track and driver.

[Bradley G]

No Whine?,... How 'bout some cheese?


You don't....

I dyno'd 302 to the rear on 94 octane.

I never dyno'd with my race fuel, but I know Lidio added atleast 5 to the spark for my 114 tune. That alone HAD to have added 30 hp to my equation taking me around 330+ NA.

These blower guys are just jealous. I only make like 425 or so without the NOS and run mid 12's all day. I'm not embarrassed to admit it.

I only got a blower because I want to whistle while I work.:P
Note...whistle...not whine.:(

My NA car was plenty fast with 330 rwhp.

Next year I'll show you all what can be done with only 425 rwhp.
And trust me...an ELEVEN won't be in the number.:D

[Bradley G]

Does anyone else see the trend here?
It's the Trilogy blown owners that are in denial here.
We the former faster NA owners turned forced induction vortech are believers...it's the throw down 6k on 16% credit line to run high 12's guys that are in denial. :baaa:

VORTECH: Affordible enough to pay cash...and STILL run 12's.(quote)
Not without other supporting mods.ie: slicks, gears and a high stall convertor.
You could take the car to race at sea level in cool temps, if all you want is bragging rights.
The denial seems to lie with some that got close to running twelves N/A.

[Pops]

Does anyone else see the trend here?
It's the Trilogy blown owners that are in denial here.
We the former faster NA owners turned forced induction vortech are believers...it's the throw down 6k on 16% credit line to run high 12's guys that are in denial. :baaa:

VORTECH: Affordible enough to pay cash...and STILL run 12's.(quote)
Not without other supporting mods.ie: slicks, gears and a high stall convertor.
You could take the car to race at sea level in cool temps, if all you want is bragging rights.
The denial seems to lie with some that got close to running twelves N/A.

What is this supposed to mean?

[Mest30]

But to say that its not possible is BS. I know for a fact an N/A stock shortblocked MM could hit 12's no problem.

No one in 5 years has done it because lets face it. Other than 3-4 people that have hardcore MM's everyone else does the "easy stuff" that takes 10 minutes in the driveway to do and thinks thats "modded". Most people bought these cars for cruisers that can go fast, not for a 1/4 mile purpose and don't mod them for that.

I agree with you that 12s N/A are quite possible but I must disagree when you say most people are doing BS easy mods. Everyone needs a starting point. When I first got my Marauder, I wanted a few things to give it more power (tune, gears). Then I thought, man, this is fun and continued with pulleys, water pump, valve body kit, tstat, and the other crap listed in my sig. Now I have a TB, x pipe and converter awaiting install and it seems that 13s are in my very near future. That stuff wasnt "easy stuff" but stuff needed to get me to 13s on a budget (I've spent less than 3k in mods/install). Without a good starting point and the "easy" stuff, 12s would be very hard to get, even with the heads and cams you speak of.

[Blackened300a]

Every mod help's even down to just bolting a crank pulley on so I dont agree with bolt-ons being called easy BS mods. These are all part of the big picture. It just sucks that there is such a limited supply of parts for these cars where as the 2V has a full catalog of parts.

[DTRMiguel]

I smell a few haters on here. Some sound like they are worried about getting there asses handed to them by an N/A car. Good luck Mest30, and Blackened300a

[merc]

Running 12's had some meaning 2-3 years ago when most owners had low mileage marauders. Today a 12 second run will give you the 58th spot on the Timeslip database and a honorable mention on this sight. You will not be able to achieve consistent 12 second runs in a competitive race, just bragging rights. Anyone remember who are the four members that made up the US 4x200m freestyle team in China. My point is this, it will take a major investment to run those times in a 4.6 DOHC motor and after the goal was achieved what's the meaning. Most have looked pass this goal and are looking at the elevens as the next frontier. We have a blue print for how to do this. My best N/A time was 13.50. From that point boost was my next mod because I don't want to port heads, change cams, or increase timing beyond 22 degrees. You can save your money and purchase a super charger as your only mod and run with the big dogs. Once you have boost you will never look back. For those who don't, they look forward to the day they can run a 12.99 N/A.

[Bradley G]

I hope somebody does run 12's N/A, I'd like to be there to shake thier hand.
I get a kick out of cruze, who continues to berate Trilogy, eventhough he has admittedly said aloud , he would like to have a Trilogy enhanced Marauder.
What's the fastest Marauder running? Oh Yeah, that *****ty Eaton!:D



What is this supposed to mean?

[Joe Walsh]

How does an N/A thread devolve into S/C Wars part 5?

If you want to runs 12s in a Marauder;

THE CHEAPEST route is via NOS.
THE BEST route is via Supercharging
THE HARDEST way is N/A

Now someone can start another thread to argue about the BEST supercharger.

[DTRMiguel]

How does an N/A thread devolve into S/C Wars part 5?

If you want to runs 12s in a Marauder;

THE CHEAPEST route is via NOS.
THE BEST route is via Supercharging
THE HARDEST way is N/A

Now someone can start another thread to argue about the BEST supercharger.

:lol: good responce joe. I like that answer :up:

[Joe Walsh]

If I could do it ALL OVER again, I would:

1: Get a good tune
2: Get a set of gears
3: Get a Supercharger
4: Add ALL the other mods as my budget allowed

I am the knucklehead who spent gobs of money doing it the hard, expensive way.

[Pops]

If I could do it ALL OVER again, I would:

1: Get a good tune
2: Get a set of gears
3: Get a Supercharger
4: Add ALL the other mods as my budget allowed

I am the knucklehead who spent gobs of money doing it the hard, expensive way.

I am the other one Joe! Would have saved a lot of money.

[Vortech347]

I never said it would be cheap...

But its completly possible. Some folks like running N/A. Some say Tamatto some people say tomatto... Its just "to each their own".

Making a 4V extremely fast is very easy with 6k (trilogy cost) Having a port job done on oem 4v heads with a mill and cams will run you around 3k. Getting the OEM intake fully ported to support the RPM of the cams another 500ish. 4.56 gears (same as cost as everyone else doing 4.10's) Some 305 nitto's, 400$ish. All the other basic hardware like long tubes, true 2.5 exhaust system, ect.

Its really not that hard. Its just no one here deals with heads/cams much because MM folks arn't much of a DIY crowd with engine work, so to pay someone to do all the work is very expensive.

Yes you'll go faster with forced induction and yes, its much easier to install, thats why trilogy gets 6k a kit. They know you'd rather pay the coin for every thing put together and an easy swap than pay someone to do it.

If I didn't already have 2 gofast cars and a horrible gun addiction I'd love to do extactly what I've mentioned to the MM and make it haul N/A.

[CRUZTAKER]

I am the knucklehead who spent gobs of money doing it the hard, expensive way.


I am the other one Joe! Would have saved a lot of money.


I was as well....;)

[FordNut]

If I could do it ALL OVER again, I would:

1: Get a good tune
2: Get a set of gears
3: Get a Supercharger
4: Add ALL the other mods as my budget allowed

I am the knucklehead who spent gobs of money doing it the hard, expensive way.


I am the other one Joe! Would have saved a lot of money.


I was as well....;)

And me....

[Bradley G]

Ok, Possible!, but still untraveled ground thus far.

Maybe you guys that got close to this goal, can weigh in on how much money you spent in trying to achieve 12's, if in fact that was even the goal.
This is not meant to embarass, just to let the members know how much money is involved.

[Glenn]

As Merc, FordNut, Johnkuhn and others have said, don't waste your time on breaking 12's with a 4.6 NA MM - save your money and go to a SC and run with the big dogs and jump directly to the 11's. This is not a challenge, it is using your common sense.

Glenn

[Pops]

As Merc, FordNut, Johnkuhn and others have said, don't waste your time on breaking 12's with a 4.6 NA MM - save your money and go to a SC and run with the big dogs and jump directly to the 11's. This is not a challenge, it is using your common sense.

Glenn

The money would be better spent and give you a much bigger kick in the A$$!

[sd8683]

Glenn you're usually a pretty smart guy... That is totally un-true statement.

I'll tell ya a very easy setup to do and you'd see 12's all day in an MM.

Basic weight reduction... (spare tire/jack, all the crap you have in the trunk)
4.56's, Ported FR500 heads with either FR500 or comp cams. FR500 intake or sheetmetal style. OR factory heads that have been slightly milled to up the comp. A good exhaust system. Pulley's, ect... all the basic stuff everyone has here in their signatures. LOL A 3000 stall converter with good tires but not oversized and good track prep... Some 275 Mickey Drag Radials or Nitto 305's would be perfect.

I've rode in a Cobra with a stock shortblock and all the FR500 goodies. SOB made 374rwhp and idled at 750rpms smoothly.

There has only been like 2 people on this forum who have even REALLY spent the proper coin and parts building a good N/A car. Everyone else takes the easy way out and throws boost at it. Face it. Its just easier to do that.

But to say that its not possible is BS. I know for a fact an N/A stock shortblocked MM could hit 12's no problem.

No one in 5 years has done it because lets face it. Other than 3-4 people that have hardcore MM's everyone else does the "easy stuff" that takes 10 minutes in the driveway to do and thinks thats "modded". Most people bought these cars for cruisers that can go fast, not for a 1/4 mile purpose and don't mod them for that.

If one was to acquire some FR500 heads, would there be some other things that would have to go along with them to make them work? Or could you just bolt them on and go?

[Blk Mamba]

Anything is possible. Money is king.

[merc]

If one was to acquire some FR500 heads, would there be some other things that would have to go along with them to make them work? Or could you just bolt them on and go?

A new set of chains, head gaskets, and ARP studs.

[Vortech347]

Stock chains, new gaskets, and new head bolts. They don't have to be ARP.

Not everyone wants to be supercharged though. Realisticly its more moving parts to go wrong.

[sd8683]

Stock chains, new gaskets, and new head bolts. They don't have to be ARP.

Not everyone wants to be supercharged though. Realisticly its more moving parts to go wrong.


Does anybody have a line on these heads, I found them on one website, they wanted 800 a piece and they are bare!!

[DOOM]

Does anyone else see the trend here?
It's the Trilogy blown owners that are in denial here.
We the former faster NA owners turned forced induction vortech are believers...it's the throw down 6k on 16% credit line to run high 12's guys that are in denial. :baaa:



Im not in denial. I know both joe walsh and paul personally and would love to see paul run 12's N/A. I think it would be a great marauder milestone and i think its possible. Paul your car is a beast best of luck to ya bro :up: . Oh and i didnt pay for my blower or my car ;) and im running 12.2 with stock rear manifolds street tune and traction issues with bald nittos.

[DOOM]

Barry your N/A runs were VERY impressive as well. I think you guys rock! :2thumbs:

[Joe Walsh]

Im not in denial. I know both joe walsh and paul personally and would love to see paul run 12's N/A. I think it would be a great marauder milestone and i think its possible. Paul your car is a beast best of luck to ya bro :up: . Oh and i didnt pay for my blower or my car ;) and im running 12.2 with stock rear manifolds
pssst: headers!...headers!!...headers !!!!
street tune and traction issues
with bald nittos.
Now What could have caused that condition!??!
...:lol:


123456789

[DOOM]

Stock rear, manifolds, street tune, and bald tires. Is that better joe joe? :D :burnout:

[Vortech347]

Does anybody have a line on these heads, I found them on one website, they wanted 800 a piece and they are bare!!

You buy the heads and FR500 cam kit (it has everything to assemble the heads)

OR you spend that money and get your stock heads worked over.

[sd8683]

You buy the heads and FR500 cam kit (it has everything to assemble the heads)

OR you spend that money and get your stock heads worked over.


Any idea how much I'd be looking at? And where they can be purchased?

Thanks, sean

[Blackened300a]

Any idea how much I'd be looking at? And where they can be purchased?

Thanks, sean

Unfortunatly to cost to power ratio is terrible. Its at least 3K then the installation.

[Aren Jay]

.............................. .......

[SC Cheesehead]

This seems to be the culture of bragging rights that plagued and still does to some extent, the computer overclocking world. Nerds gathered huge amounts of computing power, that had no real value, to push their computer, through exotic means, to the absolute extreme levels of performance. 1 or 2 Frames per second faster than your next nerd and you held the crown for having 307 fps on doom III with your $50,000 vapour cooled triple TEC heat pumping out computer. Rooms need to be vented and AC brought in, big industrial units so that frank could be the fps king!!!. wow.

How much are you going to spend on getting your car to go 12.98 seconds in a 1/4 mile twice, rather than 13.04 seconds? Yet you can do it for a quarter the money with a super charger or turbo or even alot less for a bottle of nitrous. Your not even getting paid to do this.

Why? or maybe So What?

If it is fun. is going 13.04 not fun? is going 12.89 with sc not fun?

if it is for bragging rights, just bribe the clock or track guy to run the clock slow for you. Get a 12.5 that noone will ever break, and rule as the champion that you are not. or maybe you should just lie and doctor a video and time slip. brag away....

so what.

Once again, he misses the point.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCy8MpT45gk&feature=related

[O's Fan Rich]

You guy's are all nuckin futz.....

Stop wasting your money on your cars and invest in My new Enterprise : The Rich Long Fund.....
I guarantee that I will make money with it as long as you send yours to me with no expectation of return!!! Your money will be put to good use with NO INFLATION worries for you!

NA is cool... it just takes cash.... but keep in mind that the real fast na cars weigh in at 1500lbs LESS then a MM.......
I wish you all the best in your endeavors, but I will continue wasting my money on my Trilogy Supercharged setup..... yes... it's easier!!! It's ( somewhat) cheaper, and I can whine all day long while the competition just whistles as I go by!!!

[SC Cheesehead]

You guy's are all nuckin futz.....

Stop wasting your money on your cars and invest in My new Enterprise : The Rich Long Fund.....
I guarantee that I will make money with it as long as you send yours to me with no expectation of return!!! Your money will be put to good use with NO INFLATION worries for you!

NA is cool... it just takes cash.... but keep in mind that the real fast na cars weigh in at 1500lbs LESS then a MM.......
I wish you all the best in your endeavors, but I will continue wasting my money on my Trilogy Supercharged setup..... yes... it's easier!!! It's ( somewhat) cheaper, and I can whine all day long while the competition just whistles as I go by!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m66Zn4OXaGM&feature=related

:D

[O's Fan Rich]

It's about TORQUE people, you can only get so much from a 281 cube engine, with a standard stroke in n/a form.

Torque moves mass, horsepower does work, basic physics at work here.
Our cars are heavy and need more torque to move the mass.

A stroked motor adds torque with more volume and a longer stroke.
A power adder packs the cylinders making the engine think it's bigger, adding torque.

I know... with more hp you make it up towards the middle and end of the run, but TORQUE is still King :bows:, and you can have both when you are NOT N/A.

[Aren Jay]

.............................. .......

[Vortech347]

You can to have both N/A if you do your homework.

[sd8683]

You can to have both N/A if you do your homework.


Do the homework for me and i'll do the work :)

[FordNut]

You can to have both N/A if you do your homework.

And spend a bunch of $$.

[Joe Walsh]

This seems to be the culture of bragging rights that plagued and still does to some extent, the computer overclocking world. Nerds gathered huge amounts of computing power, that had no real value, to push their computer, through exotic means, to the absolute extreme levels of performance. 1 or 2 Frames per second faster than your next nerd and you held the crown for having 307 fps on doom III with your $50,000 vapour cooled triple TEC heat pumping out computer. Rooms need to be vented and AC brought in, big industrial units so that frank could be the fps king!!!. wow.

How much are you going to spend on getting your car to go 12.98 seconds in a 1/4 mile twice, rather than 13.04 seconds? Yet you can do it for a quarter the money with a super charger or turbo or even alot less for a bottle of nitrous. Your not even getting paid to do this.

Why? or maybe So What?

This bragging 'computer overclocking' car nerd now has the bullet proof foundation in a fully forged and built N/A engine to run 12s....
OH and by the way, a 12.9 is still a 12 second run...GOT IT!? Tell Sherman, when he runs a 9.89, that he REALLY only ran a 10....:confused:....:rolleyes:
I am not arguing that it was the easiest or most cost effective way to run 12s.
When I have the funds to buy and bolt on a S/C, I can be totally confident in my engine's durabilty and its' ability to take anything the S/C gives it.
I am glad that I can run a 12 N/A vs. running a 12 S/C.
I did it the hard way, but I had fun doing it

If it is fun. is going 13.04 not fun? is going 12.89 with sc not fun?

You obviously don't Drag race.
15s, 14s, 13s, 12s, 11s, 10s, and now maybe even 9s are milestones to judge your Marauder's progress at the Drag strip.

if it is for bragging rights, just bribe the clock or track guy to run the clock slow for you. Get a 12.5 that noone will ever break, and rule as the champion that you are not. or maybe you should just lie and doctor a video and time slip. brag away....

Yep, I'll definitely bring extra money to bribe the track officials next time.... :shake:

so what.

JEEZ, Now I feel stupid for even responding to your B.S.
Please stick to your ramblings about Aviator transmissions and AWD Marauders.
Better yet....Head to the track when they open, and ask the track official if he can give you an 12.1* second time slip for $25.00!

* Ask for a 12.1 instead of an 11.9...they are the same thing anyway!

[ctrlraven]

I'm taking my NA as far as I can WITHIN REASON to see what I can do and then go boosted.

Someone people just take the jump from stock NA to boosted. I want to enjoy my progress, I plan on have the car forever so I have no rush. Say goodbye to 13.7's hello 13.3-13.4's this spring. Will still have LT headers, dyno tune and maybe pulleys to finish out NA after 4.10 gears go in.

[Glenn]

It just can not be done - stop the words and posts - the best MM owners in the country have tried and spend a ton of money trying to do it and failed. Low 13s are still not 12s. I have lived the past 5 years seeing them try. If it was possible it would have been done - it's not. That's why I jump from 13.9 NA to 11.9 SC. It is the only reasonable thing to do. The cost from 13.9 to the 12.99s 4.6 NA is HUGE!! This is not a challenge it is common sense. Get yourself a Trilogy and join the Big Dogs - you'll be glad you did.

Glenn :burnout:

[ctrlraven]

You must think people are going to spend more money trying to do NA 12's than what it would cost to slap on a s/c go for faster. Sure if they do spend more hey that's on them, you can't save all the fish in the ocean and people need to learn on their own. If that's what makes them happy then so be it.

The more you keep telling people it can't be done will only fuel them to try and make it happen. Hell people told me not to dump a bunch of money in my 01 Ford Focus but I did it anyways and it was faster then the MM and all it needed was a turbo and it would of been a low 11 sec car on pump 93 gas with still getting decent gas mileage.

For the mods I have on my MM, I am above the curve on the 1/4 and will take advantage of that fact. There must of been a reason why I was running faster or just as fast as some guys with intake, tune and 4.10 gears. I mean come on who goes 14.25 with an intake, gms coil plug connectors, ngk plugs, tune, 2nd set cats deleted, some chambered mufflers and res-delete tips with 3.55 gears on 255/55-18 kdw2s with an effective rear gear ratio of 3.50.

[ImpalaSlayer]

lets do it Chris!

[CRUZTAKER]

I didn't spend NEAR what most of those blown guys spent to get where I did NA.

I'd estimate it to be around 4k.
That's no where near a 6-7k Trilogy investment.
And I was STILL (track) faster than more than a few of those large investers.

Hell...I got into my Vortech for under $3700 installed!

[Blackened300a]

Remember when the N/A cars beat all the S/Ced cars at MV-V! :D

Besides I like the way people came around my car after running 13's and were amazed that I was N/A. Anyone can slap a S/C on and run fast but its more status to run just as fast as them on motor.

With the money I spent on mods I could have had a S/C by now but taking a stock Marauder and putting a blower on it would put me into the low 14's/ high 13's. If for whatever reason down the road I decide to get blown, I'll have a more potent Marauder to bolt it on.

[ctrlraven]

Remember when the N/A cars beat all the S/Ced cars at MV-V! :D

Besides I like the way people came around my car after running 13's and were amazed that I was N/A. Anyone can slap a S/C on and run fast but its more status to run just as fast as them on motor.

With the money I spent on mods I could have had a S/C by now but taking a stock Marauder and putting a blower on it would put me into the low 14's/ high 13's. If for whatever reason down the road I decide to get blown, I'll have a more potent Marauder to bolt it on.

And that's the point I am trying to make. You have a higher restart value.

For example
Breadfan: self installed Trilogy with 4.10 gears runs 12.99 on stock motor/trans with tune.
JoeWalsh: 5.1 built NA motor and I believe he has a built trans with 3.55 gears runs 12.99. If Joe had put on his Procharger WOW I know the car would of been a nasty mofo.

We have all set goals and we will do what we can to make them. My goal I set for myself was to beat Red's time which I think was in the 13.4-13.5 range just with installing my 4.10 gears.

[DOOM]

Go get em boys :burnout:

[FordNut]

OK, I admit I did have other motivation for going through all the mods I made. I wanted to document the gains since everybody was just going by SOTP performance gains for awhile. Virtually all of the mods I made were accompanied with before/after dyno testing. At a few points in the process I got drag strip data, too. Partly for me, partly to help provide info and guidance to my MM brothers. It gave us some measure of the "Bang for the Buck" on the possible mods. Only a couple of things in the NA mod list are incompatible with the SC, so why not? And I guess I was like a lot of the guys trying to go fast NA, I didn't have the cash for a lump sum payment to get a SC. So mod away, try as hard as you can to make the 12's NA. Then when you get tired of low 13's and put on a blower you'll be in the 11's and just totally skip the 12's!

[merc]

Wow, the thread that never ends. Running a number is called time trials and is only important for bragging rights. Racing is all about winning, no matter what your time is. I wanted to race in the 11's because it separates me from running again a larger field of amateur racers and the rent-a-car crowd. What we are talking about in this thread is if it's possible to race a 4.6 DOHC (stock motor) into the 12's. It seems like some are interested in wearing this badge glory. Please keep us posted when you achieve this milestone. I guess conversations like this are good foot warmers in the winter and meaningless until the tracks open up again. I would like to see a poll of those who think they can achieve the miracle 12.99 N/A. It's good to see Marauder owners talk about racing and modifying there cars. That's want this site is all about. So pursue your dreams and show us old timers how its done. I salute your efforts and your dedication.

[Glenn]

Remember young grasshoppers - it is who is at the end of the track the first - not how much money you spent to get there. They don't ask you how much money you spent to get into the 11s before they give your your time slips. Drag racing is how fast you go not how much you spent to get there.

Remember when you get to 13.2 a year from now and still can't break into the 12s, I'll be in the 11.8s waving at you. I bet most of you haven't even been on the track. I see very few times posted on your sigs. I did not get my times by just putting on a SC, it took alot of hard work. Many SC can not even get out of the 12s. But, I'll be glad to see you at the Silver Dollar this month after I install a few more mods to break into the 11.8s or lower.

Glenn :burnout:

[Vortech347]

Problem is you guys refuse to learn and try new things and refuse to believe there is truely another way other than just buying a blower.

There is a way...You're just to pig headed to realize it. If I had the disposible income laying around I'd do it to prove you guys wrong. There are stock shortblocked 99/01 cobra's making 375-390rwhp out there. Because they did their homework and built matched setups. With N/A you can't just throw it together and go. There is fine tuning involved that no one here is willing to have the patients with. Hell no one here even has the balls to install 4.30's or 4.56's. (I hope at least one or 2 people have done it) If I used my car for drag/fun car as much as you guys do that would of been the FIRST thing I did, not 4.10's.

[Joe Walsh]

BillyGman had 4.56 gears in his Trilogy Marauder...:eek:

That's why he had so many GREAT burnout videos!

BTW: I agree, It can be done. People just want to keep arguing that it is impossible, crazy and not cost effective.
I am not arguing that it is easy, or cost effective, or that your N/A Marauder would be a good daily driver...just a different and more challenging route to the 12s.

[Blackened300a]

Wow, the thread that never ends. Running a number is called time trials and is only important for bragging rights. Racing is all about winning, no matter what your time is. I wanted to race in the 11's because it separates me from running again a larger field of amateur racers and the rent-a-car crowd. What we are talking about in this thread is if it's possible to race a 4.6 DOHC (stock motor) into the 12's. It seems like some are interested in wearing this badge glory. Please keep us posted when you achieve this milestone. I guess conversations like this are good foot warmers in the winter and meaningless until the tracks open up again. I would like to see a poll of those who think they can achieve the miracle 12.99 N/A. It's good to see Marauder owners talk about racing and modifying there cars. That's want this site is all about. So pursue your dreams and show us old timers how its done. I salute your efforts and your dedication.

Thank you, Thats motovational rather then telling someone to give up and buy a blower. To me, a 12 second timeslip N/A is a true badge of honor.


Remember young grasshoppers - it is who is at the end of the track the first - not how much money you spent to get there. They don't ask you how much money you spent to get into the 11s before they give your your time slips. Drag racing is how fast you go not how much you spent to get there.

Remember when you get to 13.2 a year from now and still can't break into the 12s, I'll be in the 11.8s waving at you. I bet most of you haven't even been on the track. I see very few times posted on your sigs. I did not get my times by just putting on a SC, it took alot of hard work. Many SC can not even get out of the 12s. But, I'll be glad to see you at the Silver Dollar this month after I install a few more mods to break into the 11.8s or lower.

Glenn :burnout:

Bottom line, I didnt buy the car to be the 1/4 mile king. I could have taken the the $24K I paid for the car and the $6K in mods and be driving a 10 or even a 9 second mustang. I love my car and to just turn the key and pull a mid 13 second pass on street tires without bolting a S/C on means a lot to me.
I guess Im old school by being more impressed when I hear the phrase "all motor"



Problem is you guys refuse to learn and try new things and refuse to believe there is truely another way other than just buying a blower.

There is a way...You're just to pig headed to realize it. If I had the disposible income laying around I'd do it to prove you guys wrong. There are stock shortblocked 99/01 cobra's making 375-390rwhp out there. Because they did their homework and built matched setups. With N/A you can't just throw it together and go. There is fine tuning involved that no one here is willing to have the patients with. Hell no one here even has the balls to install 4.30's or 4.56's. (I hope at least one or 2 people have done it) If I used my car for drag/fun car as much as you guys do that would of been the FIRST thing I did, not 4.10's.

Dont be surprised when the thread pops up by me saying the 4.56's are in. I was using the car as a daily driver and 4.10's were as high I wanted to go. Now the car is off the road Ill put more more gear in it.

[Mest30]

Wow, I've created a monster. I'm not going to get into an arguement about whether it can and/or should be done. It's my car and my money and my goal. So I'll just say this. I will do it. This season I'll get in the 13s and hopefully next season I'll hit the 12s. If I cant do it next season, then the season after. I might not be the first to do it based on others who are closer than me and seem to be equally motivatd, but I will do it. And once I hit 12s N/A, I'll make another thread asking if 11s are possible. It will never end!!!

[CRUZTAKER]

Here's a little incentive guys.
Street gas tune, humid, and like 85 degrees on the track that day.

I have a 13.2 video, but it doesn't show the time board.

6KhmBicMZjI

[sd8683]

Wow, I've created a monster. I'm not going to get into an arguement about whether it can and/or should be done. It's my car and my money and my goal. So I'll just say this. I will do it. This season I'll get in the 13s and hopefully next season I'll hit the 12s. If I cant do it next season, then the season after. I might not be the first to do it based on others who are closer than me and seem to be equally motivatd, but I will do it. And once I hit 12s N/A, I'll make another thread asking if 11s are possible. It will never end!!!

I'm with you Jon, I agree 100%!!!!, I just wish SOME of the people in this thread would keep the negativity to themselves!!

And just one more thing!!




I
DON'T
WANT
A
SUPERCHARGER!!!!

[O's Fan Rich]

We'll all be watching with eager anticipation, for sure!
Just to set a baseline, sd8683, what's your timeslips say now as your car is?

[Embassy]

What a thread.


Hell no one here even has the balls to install 4.30's or 4.56's. (I hope at least one or 2 people have done it) If I used my car for drag/fun car as much as you guys do that would of been the FIRST thing I did, not 4.10's.

I've got 4.30s. They're fun. :burnout:

[Mest30]

Mine says 14.46 but that was with 5 year old tires. I think my car has a 14.2 in it how it stands now, and, as I stated before, the TC should put me into the 13s. Not sure where in the 13s. Next drag season will be more of me perfecting launches than times. But I think a TC, cat back system with hi fow cats, rear cat delete, and after market mufflers, a TB and maybe a 90mm MAF should put me in the 13.5 range. Headers would then put me near CRUZ's times. The last few tenths maybe hard, but there are several things that can be done. Steeper gears, polished heads, cams, ported lower intake. Hell, a dyno tune is probably worth 10hp more than a mail in tune and 10hp should equal .1 seconds on the track.

[sd8683]

We'll all be watching with eager anticipation, for sure!
Just to set a baseline, sd8683, what's your timeslips say now as your car is?

Its Sean.... Rich, I unfortunately have not run my car yet, every time I planned to go to the track something came up, but I've been in plenty of fast cars and mine feels like high 13's, ask Kb-Marauder-S, he thinks my car is already in the mid 13's but I don't think so, My header's and intake spacer should be installed my march and I will be the first at the gate when New England dragway opens up come spring time.

[O's Fan Rich]

Sean, (thanks) with 4:10's cobra manifolds and Magnaflow x-pipe to a full dual 2.5 system (sans my ULTRA COOL Grand Muffler mandrel bent tailpipes those were installed after the headers....)
and street tires, I ran a 14.2.....
High 13's would have been easy with drag radials..
With the Trilogy, they made me wear a helmet at Milan.... low 13's, street tires
then with a 3.0 pulley I run the 12.5's now.... with DR's... and I can't drive good.....
I plan on knocking a full second off of that.
My goal is to be thrown off a track for no roll bar.....

Then I'll be done with this car.

[sd8683]

Sean, (thanks) with 4:10's cobra manifolds and Magnaflow x-pipe to a full dual 2.5 system (sans my ULTRA COOL Grand Muffler mandrel bent tailpipes those were installed after the headers....)
and street tires, I ran a 14.2.....
High 13's would have been easy with drag radials..
With the Trilogy, they made me wear a helmet at Milan.... low 13's, street tires
then with a 3.0 pulley I run the 12.5's now.... with DR's... and I can't drive good.....You do good burnouts though:D

I plan on knocking a full second off of that.

My goal is to be thrown off a track for no roll bar.....

Then I'll be done with this car.

I'm going with Kooks headers with full mandrel bent 2.5 exhaust with a custom 2.5 H-pipe with super 44's, but I think I might use magnaflows instead. I'm not sure yet, the super 44's might be too loud.

[FordNut]

I'm anxious to see a 12 sec NA run! Do it fellas!

I had Kooks, 2-1/2" exhaust, high flow cats, PI converter, Art Carr tranny, 4.10 gears, underdrive pulleys, electric water pump, ported lower intake, ported upper intake, 62 mm throttle body, SCT MAF, K&N conical filter, Z&M control arms, widened rear wheels.

I was told the only way to get more would be to go inside the engine. Port heads & upgrade cams. About $1000 to pull & re-install the heads, $1000+ for the cams (they can be had for less nowadays), $1000 to rework the heads. Basically another $2500-3000 to pick up a half-second, then it's totally topped out without any hope of ever hitting the 11's.

That was back in the days that a few 13 second cars were still on the first page of the timeslips but it was obvious that there would soon be no room on the first page for any NA cars.

[Dragcity]

We have all set goals and we will do what we can to make them. My goal I set for myself was to beat Red's time which I think was in the 13.4-13.5 range just with installing my 4.10 gears.


Chris, Just wait until you get those headers on. Mine made a HUGE difference. So much so, there are no more mods in my future. I always wanted to get blown, but the car feels 'Just right' now.

Mine is my daily driver, summer and winter. It is actually a little too squirelly for winter use these days, but I'm still tuned pretty hot.

I still need to get a 1/4 mile run, but it fells pretty damn quick these days. I need to get down to see you this summer and you can share a few or your "tricks" with me.

RACE ON !

[Glenn]

I like this video better------!!!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/SSHS8-ShootOut-Atlanta_197983.htm

Glenn :burnout:

[sd8683]

I like this video better------!!!

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/SSHS8-ShootOut-Atlanta_197983.htm

Glenn :burnout:

Nice run, but what vid are you referring to that yours is better than?

[Aren Jay]

.............................. ..

[Vortech347]

Thank you, Thats motovational rather then telling someone to give up and buy a blower. To me, a 12 second timeslip N/A is a true badge of honor.

I guess Im old school by being more impressed when I hear the phrase "all motor"
Dont be surprised when the thread pops up by me saying the 4.56's are in. I was using the car as a daily driver and 4.10's were as high I wanted to go. Now the car is off the road Ill put more more gear in it.

Exactly. I'm in the same boat.


BillyGman had 4.56 gears in his Trilogy Marauder...:eek:

That's why he had so many GREAT burnout videos!

BTW: I agree, It can be done. People just want to keep arguing that it is impossible, crazy and not cost effective.
I am not arguing that it is easy, or cost effective, or that your N/A Marauder would be a good daily driver...just a different and more challenging route to the 12s.


What a thread.



I've got 4.30s. They're fun. :burnout:

I figured a few people would likely have some steeper gear! I'm sure the difference between 4.10's and 4.30's is a pretty good difference at the track. It can be done... Yes it may cost more. But I tend to give alot more respect out to N/A cars that are built than forced induction.

[ImpalaSlayer]

Exactly. I'm in the same boat.





I figured a few people would likely have some steeper gear! I'm sure the difference between 4.10's and 4.30's is a pretty good difference at the track. It can be done... Yes it may cost more. But I tend to give alot more respect out to N/A cars that are built than forced induction.

for once i think i agree with you :beer:

[CRUZTAKER]

My goal is to be thrown off a track for no roll bar.....

Then I'll be done with this car.


Everyone needs a timeslip like this! :P

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/6/2/6/zacks_timeslip.jpg

[WPG_Merc]

I hope I can do 13's or faster after the 3500 stall & 90 mm mass air in spring.
Can't wait to try it at the track early summer.:banana:

[1stMerc]

I'm with you Jon, I agree 100%!!!!, I just wish SOME of the people in this thread would keep the negativity to themselves!!

You need the negativity, to give you the will to do it, and the attitude of the little engine that could.


The Little Engine That Could
http://www.thelittleenginethatcouldto ur.com/images/LETCcloseup.jpg

[Constable]

I hope I can do 13's or faster after the 3500 stall

Uh... if you're not in the mid-13's right now, then there's a problem. Is the mod list in your sig current?

And you may not see better times with the converter... unless you add some sticky tires to the mix. Flashing at 3500 is of no use without traction.

[justbob]

I need instant gratification with everything! Thats the way i've always been. I don't have the patience to go for small increases in speed. I'd also like to blink my eye and drop almost three seconds off. And i rather like my MPG so i also want to keep my gear (for now). Thats why i purchased my trilogy kit used for for $3500.00 and installed it myself in a couple days after recieving.
With no suspension mods, no cai, no custom exhaust, ok no custom anything really, i can run consistent 12.9's hot lapping untill i get bored with DR's.
I'm just saying stair stepping your way up is not for everybody, I am very happy with my results and just think of all the other mods i could throw at my car as money permits.
With my build my car feels 100% stock unless you use it. Reliability is a huge key factor for me. My car has zero issues in 0 to 95 degree weather and always ready for fun.

[RaceLegend79]

There is a mustang twin turbo kit available for the mustang, I'm sure that it could be altered enough to work, the problem is that it mounts at the tail pipe.


Yeah thats called Squires Turbo System, I love it just ask anyone on here how much I praise it and want it.:banana2:

[merc]

Uh... if you're not in the mid-13's right now, then there's a problem. Is the mod list in your sig current?

And you may not see better times with the converter... unless you add some sticky tires to the mix. Flashing at 3500 is of no use without traction.

Wow, the legend. Constable was one of the first to have Kook headers. Glad to see you are still around. :)

[hot-rauder]

I'm going with Kooks headers with full mandrel bent 2.5 exhaust with a custom 2.5 H-pipe with super 44's, but I think I might use magnaflows instead. I'm not sure yet, the super 44's might be too loud.

go with the regular 40's... thats what I had, and exverything else was stock. you remember how loud mine was...

[Vortech347]

STS turbos are the laughing stock of the turbo industry, they are based here in Utah and...well lets put it this way. My little Vortech has no problem eating them for breakfast. If they do show up to the track they usually go home with their tail between their legs with their 13-14 second time slips. One of my good friends ditched the system because he got sick of getting beat by pretty much everything. They are also tuning nightmares. You're better off spending the money to pay someone to kick you in the nuts for a few years.

[ctrlraven]

I hope I can do 13's or faster after the 3500 stall & 90 mm mass air in spring.
Can't wait to try it at the track early summer.:banana:


Uh... if you're not in the mid-13's right now, then there's a problem. Is the mod list in your sig current?

And you may not see better times with the converter... unless you add some sticky tires to the mix. Flashing at 3500 is of no use without traction.

Yeah something is definitely wrong there.

If you have kooks headers and all, I really hope you have gotten a Dyno Tune and are not still running the DR mail order tune.

[Vortech347]

Remember when comparing times. EVERYONE's track is different. Prep, elevation, conditions, ect.... Some go up hill/down hill. Different equipment...

SOOOOOO many veriables.

[Dragcity]

I wanna race Chris at his track, I'm sure he'll kick mt ash.

His Silver Birch is fast

[ctrlraven]

I wanna race Chris at his track, I'm sure he'll kick mt ash.

His Silver Birch is fast

The local track I race at will start it's Sunday Test & Tune 12pm - 5pm in March. Do you have a stock converter or PI 3000/3500?

[Dragcity]

Just stock in my '04. I usually don't tach up too much anyway. traction is a an issue now I have the headers and 90 MM MAF in.

Gotta try to stay out of the water box. I get just enough slip with a couple quick brake torques.

[WPG_Merc]

[quote]
If you have kooks headers and all, I really hope you have gotten a Dyno Tune and are not still running the DR mail order tune.[QUOTE

I have the DR Xcal tune when I got the KOOK's system,It was a package
deal.
When the 3500 is installed in spring,There is a local shop http://www.wolfperformance.com/that will retune the Xcal & set up a dyno run. :burnout:
& all the parts I have listed are current + a 90 mm mass air.

[Blown3.8]

Ahh I smell a challenge.:beer:

Maybe I'll take the stock, DD we got out this spring and baseline it. Then if I can scrape some money together for the mods we'll see if we can get a 12 out of it. I think it can be done fairly simply.

There's a couple guys that have the right idea.;)

[ImpalaSlayer]

Ahh I smell a challenge.:beer:

Maybe I'll take the stock, DD we got out this spring and baseline it. Then if I can scrape some money together for the mods we'll see if we can get a 12 out of it. I think it can be done fairly simply.

There's a couple guys that have the right idea.;)

leave some records for the rest of us willya?

[ctrlraven]

Ahh I smell a challenge.:beer:

Maybe I'll take the stock, DD we got out this spring and baseline it. Then if I can scrape some money together for the mods we'll see if we can get a 12 out of it. I think it can be done fairly simply.

There's a couple guys that have the right idea.;)
It can be done and will be done.

The two main things to address is drivetrain and weight.

[Yo Vic]

As in the immortal words of Captain Kirk, "More power!", or from an engineer, "less weight". I wonder if all of the times posted include rear seats and stock structure. Maybe we can get this guy to help us!

http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/

Yo Vic


Looking through the timeslips, there is only one N/A Marauder in the 12s and he had a 5.0 Big Bore DOHC V8. The next closes to his 12.9 is a 13.5. Are 12s N/A possible on a 4.6L Marauder? What mods need to be done? Why has nobody done it?

[Blown3.8]

leave some records for the rest of us willya?

:D

Ehh, I ain't got no money anyhow.

Bring the car on down here and we'll get you a record.;)

[ImpalaSlayer]

:D

Ehh, I ain't got no money anyhow.

Bring the car on down here and we'll get you a record.;)

i may be in touch

[sd8683]

:D

Ehh, I ain't got no money anyhow.

Bring the car on down here and we'll get you a record.;)

Can I bring my car down TOOOOO:D

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

STS turbos are the laughing stock of the turbo industry, they are based here in Utah and...well lets put it this way. My little Vortech has no problem eating them for breakfast. If they do show up to the track they usually go home with their tail between their legs with their 13-14 second time slips. One of my good friends ditched the system because he got sick of getting beat by pretty much everything. They are also tuning nightmares. You're better off spending the money to pay someone to kick you in the nuts for a few years.

I dunno, I seen some sick numbers running those rear mounted turbos. But they mount to a single exhaust in the back, would it kill the other exhaust pipe?

[Vortech347]

Everything looks great on the dyno, thats how they sell the kits. Results at the track and street? F-- on the grade. Trust me. I've worked on them and driven 2 cars with em. They are poop. Bill Devine, their new spokes person. He stands by them but...funny...his drag car has them in the front. You'd think he'd have em in the back if he works for them? he dosn't cause he'll get REAMED. I wouldn't stick one on any of my cars even if it was free.

[Joe Walsh]

There is no room in the back of our Marauders for a STS system...The '05+ Mustangs have space for the OEM mufflers in the back, and the mufflers are what the twin turbos replace.
Besides, you have to route and hang 4 sets of pipes from front to back to plumb the turbos!
Also, you have to run an oil supply and return line all the way to the back for the turbos.
And if the turbo's bearing housings are water cooled...that's another set of lines (coolant) to run all the way back to the turbos.
In a long wheelbase Marauder that is a LOT of piping.....can you say Turbo LAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG! ?
The good news is that your floor boards stay nice and toasty in the winter.

Now, back to the N/A thread!

[Vortech347]

You should feel how bad they lag in a Yukon.

Waste of good turbos...

[O's Fan Rich]

This thread should be stickied until the deed is done....

[Bradley G]

If one had an unlimited check book, I don't see a problem.

I notice no one who got close to the 12's N/A , commented on how much money was spent to get near there.
When someone does go 12's in a N/A Marauder, who's to say how streetable it is.

The difference is, now we've had time to learn how our Marauders respond to mods.

[Blackened300a]

When someone does go 12's in a N/A Marauder, who's to say how streetable it is.

One of the rules is that it has to be completely streetable.

[DOOM]

No seats is still streetable in my opinion.

[Blackened300a]

No seats is still streetable in my opinion.

No doors like a jeep works as well lol

[Joe Walsh]

No seats is still streetable in my opinion.


No doors like a jeep works as well lol

You should just go all the way like they did in the famous HOTROD "Caddy Hack" article:

http://www.hotrod.com/eventcoverage/hrdp_0401_1970_cadillac_coupe_ de_ville_drag_weight/index.html

[Pops]

You should just go all the way like they did in the famous HOTROD "Caddy Hack" article:

http://www.hotrod.com/eventcoverage/hrdp_0401_1970_cadillac_coupe_ de_ville_drag_weight/index.html

O forgot about that one Joe! That was a cool deal. :D

[Joe Walsh]

That was a funny article, but it really drove home the point of how weight effects elapsed times.
Now I'm showing my age by recalling that 20+ year old article!

Are we going to see a "stripper" N/A Marauder running a 12?

IMHO: It should be an honest, fully equipped, full weight Marauder, including the spare tire, just like you drive it on the street!

[FordNut]

I notice no one who got close to the 12's N/A , commented on how much money was spent to get near there.

Wheelbarrows full

[Pops]

[quote=FordNut;704038]Wheelbarrows full[/quot

Yup!!!:D

[Joe Walsh]

Wheelbarrows full




Yup!!!:D

Yes indeed!

In fact, I know what my engine cost, and I have all my other 'mod' receipts...BUT
I'm afraid to sit down and add them all up...I will have a heart attack!...:eek:

[Pops]

I know what it cost for what I did! A SC could have been bought and left money for a good vacation.

[ctrlraven]

I know what it cost for what I did! A SC could have been bought and left money for a good vacation.
I'm sure I have spent a lot less than you have and running just as fast as you were at MVV now.

Cost of full NA mods on a stock car vs. trilogy on a stock car that's the whole point of this really.

From the time slip pages the people with stockish cars that have a trilogy on are around the high 12/low 13's. Take Breadfan for example, Trilogy, 4.10s and 16" drag radials, he went 12.99.

Not eveyone wants a s/c car that goes 12's, 11's or even 10's. Some might just want a high or mid 13 sec car. We NA guys are trying to lay the path of mod combos for others while chasing a goal of our own.

[Krytin]

I'm going to throw my two cents in here.
I like/enjoy road racing.
My MM is a daily driver and I'm always pushing it as hard as road conditions/traffic permit.
The upgrade for the '03 platform - aluminum front crossmember, rack&pinion stearing and stiffer frame rails have made this the best handling panther to date.
For what I enjoy out of this car, I DON"T want to increase the weight over the front wheels.
Cast iron blocks and S/C's are not for me but neither is drag racing.

I DO think that this thread is of value to people like myself who for whatever reason want to find a way to maximize HP w/out using forced induction.
I have been and will be watching this thread and if I find a way to make more power I'll be posting it up for the rest to try!

[ctrlraven]

I'm going to throw my two cents in here.
I like/enjoy road racing.
My MM is a daily driver and I'm always pushing it as hard as road conditions/traffic permit.
The upgrade for the '03 platform - aluminum front crossmember, rack&pinion stearing and stiffer frame rails have made this the best handling panther to date.
For what I enjoy out of this car, I DON"T want to increase the weight over the front wheels.
Cast iron blocks and S/C's are not for me but neither is drag racing.

I DO think that this thread is of value to people like myself who for whatever reason want to find a way to maximize HP w/out using forced induction.
I have been and will be watching this thread and if I find a way to make more power I'll be posting it up for the rest to try!

Thanks for your support. Like I have said before "us" who are in the hunt for 12's are also trying to set a new path of NA mod combos cause not everyone has bank to do a built motor or go forced induction.

[Quickvic30]

There is a member on CVN running 13.41 N/A with an 01 vic. That's faster than every N/A Marauder other than Joe's. He might be trying to get to 12s N/A (that or just spraying). If he can do it, Marauders can do it.

Orly, wonder who that guys is.... :D


http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa11/quickvic30/IMG-2.jpg

[Vortech347]

Getting rid of the OEM seats and throwing in some nice Corbeau's would work well and save alot of weight. That was one of the first things I did in my fox. It was a HUGE difference. I'm sure the MM seats weigh even more. But then...you take away the MMnes of the MM if ya know what I mean..

I like my comfy couch that can go 150.

[SCmarauder46]

What a bunch of whiners. This is a pissing contest if ive ever seen one.

[Paul T. Casey]

I mean come on who goes 14.25 with an intake, gms coil plug connectors, ngk plugs, tune, 2nd set cats deleted, some chambered mufflers and res-delete tips with 3.55 gears on 255/55-18 kdw2s with an effective rear gear ratio of 3.50.

Slow. How about 14.02 @ 99.97 with tune, CAI, Kooks through Magnaflows, spacer, u/d's, stock gears, worn OEM tires, a 200 lb driver, stock tailpipes, and better than 1/4 tank of gas. That was at the 2007 SSHS. I wrote a 14.0 on the window and ran that number (14.02 to 14.07) all day until the final round when we were pretty much on the 3rd straight run. It fell off to 14.17, so not that bad, could have been a poor launch.

As to the question of 12's and streetable. I figure yes if one is dedicated. There's a lot of weight that can be discarded, if you don't mind loosing the creature comforts. Window and seat motors, amp, radio, speakers, a/c and heater. If you're real hard core, airbags and associated sensors, air ride system, and sound insulation. Just a guess, but all this may get you to around 3600 lbs.
A good junk yard motor could be purchased, disassembled, and rebuilt to handle say 8000 rpm. It would be on the pricey side. Then there's the tune. If you can read the fuel maps, and have access to a dyno, should be too bad. Otherwise, plan on spending at least 8 hours of dyno-tuning time from someone who is going to charge around $150 per hour. There's cheaper tuners out there, but you usually get what you pay for. Other items include but not limited to are fuel pumps, injector nozzles, electric water pump, new wheels to handle wider tires.
If done right, it is my opinion the someone could concievable run 12.5, and still qualify for SSHS with an N/A 4.6 Marauder. You'd want the best balanced and lightest rotating assembly you can find, a "perfect" aluminum block (decked, honed, squared, etc), bigger injectors, bigger MAF and TB, polished and port matched heads and intake, good long tubes with a tuned exhaust, strong rear end, wider tires, and (ready for this) a Gear Vendors style overdrive. Regardless of what gear you put into the rear, one of the biggest drawbacks on our cars is the tranny. Watch your tach next time you are at the track. There's some big drops between shifts. The 1-2 isn't too bad, but I'll bet the 2-3 drops in the neighborhood of 1200 rpm. With the Gear Vendors unit you could effeectively give yourself a six speed for racing as it overdrives each gear. Put simple, it about halves the rpm drops between shifts. The 800 drop between 1-2 is 400 between 1-od1, and 0d1 to 2. The 1200 becomes 600. This, with proper tans. tuning, can keep you in the exact meat of the powerband for the entire 1320 (minus of course the first 60 to 80 feet). It'll take some practice, and probably re-location of the tach as you have to hit a button to engage the od each time. The units aren't cheap, but if you are building a 12 second N/A 4.6 Marauder, then is money really an object?

[DTRMiguel]

Slow. How about 14.02 @ 99.97 with tune, CAI, Kooks through Magnaflows, spacer, u/d's, stock gears, worn OEM tires, a 200 lb driver, stock tailpipes, and better than 1/4 tank of gas. That was at the 2007 SSHS. I wrote a 14.0 on the window and ran that number (14.02 to 14.07) all day until the final round when we were pretty much on the 3rd straight run. It fell off to 14.17, so not that bad, could have been a poor launch.



How about 14.51 with only an intake? :rolleyes:

[Blackened300a]

Slow. How about 14.02 @ 99.97 with tune, CAI, Kooks through Magnaflows, spacer, u/d's, stock gears, worn OEM tires, a 200 lb driver, stock tailpipes, and better than 1/4 tank of gas. That was at the 2007 SSHS. I wrote a 14.0 on the window and ran that number (14.02 to 14.07) all day until the final round when we were pretty much on the 3rd straight run. It fell off to 14.17, so not that bad, could have been a poor launch.

As to the question of 12's and streetable. I figure yes if one is dedicated. There's a lot of weight that can be discarded, if you don't mind loosing the creature comforts. Window and seat motors, amp, radio, speakers, a/c and heater. If you're real hard core, airbags and associated sensors, air ride system, and sound insulation. Just a guess, but all this may get you to around 3600 lbs.
A good junk yard motor could be purchased, disassembled, and rebuilt to handle say 8000 rpm. It would be on the pricey side. Then there's the tune. If you can read the fuel maps, and have access to a dyno, should be too bad. Otherwise, plan on spending at least 8 hours of dyno-tuning time from someone who is going to charge around $150 per hour. There's cheaper tuners out there, but you usually get what you pay for. Other items include but not limited to are fuel pumps, injector nozzles, electric water pump, new wheels to handle wider tires.
If done right, it is my opinion the someone could concievable run 12.5, and still qualify for SSHS with an N/A 4.6 Marauder. You'd want the best balanced and lightest rotating assembly you can find, a "perfect" aluminum block (decked, honed, squared, etc), bigger injectors, bigger MAF and TB, polished and port matched heads and intake, good long tubes with a tuned exhaust, strong rear end, wider tires, and (ready for this) a Gear Vendors style overdrive. Regardless of what gear you put into the rear, one of the biggest drawbacks on our cars is the tranny. Watch your tach next time you are at the track. There's some big drops between shifts. The 1-2 isn't too bad, but I'll bet the 2-3 drops in the neighborhood of 1200 rpm. With the Gear Vendors unit you could effeectively give yourself a six speed for racing as it overdrives each gear. Put simple, it about halves the rpm drops between shifts. The 800 drop between 1-2 is 400 between 1-od1, and 0d1 to 2. The 1200 becomes 600. This, with proper tans. tuning, can keep you in the exact meat of the powerband for the entire 1320 (minus of course the first 60 to 80 feet). It'll take some practice, and probably re-location of the tach as you have to hit a button to engage the od each time. The units aren't cheap, but if you are building a 12 second N/A 4.6 Marauder, then is money really an object?

You are making this way more involved then what it really is. Cruztaker went 13.2 in 80 degree temps with bolt-ons,full interior, stock internals and a race gas tune. Had it been colder temps he may have broke into the 12's and proving everyone wrong.
I went 13.6 with a basically stock exhaust, street tires, and a 93 octane street tune. I also had my spare, trunk organizer,headlight and full interior when I made the run. Had I pulled all that stuff out, smaller tires with drag radials, race gas track tune with a full exhaust, I really feel this can be done without butchering the car.

[Joe Walsh]

You don't need to gut the interior like all the Ricer Retards....

and why do that to a beautiful Marauder?

Pulling a 4400 lb fully equipped, 4 door sedan down the track in 12 seconds is the deal.

[FordNut]

You are making this way more involved then what it really is... ...I really feel this can be done without butchering the car.

We're waiting for ANYBODY to show us old timers how to do it. We never figured it out, so maybe the young guns can show us how it's done!

[O's Fan Rich]

This will be AWESOME!!!!!

GO GIT 'EM GUYS!!!!!

12's, 12's, 12's, 12's.......:banana2:

[ctrlraven]

You don't need to gut the interior like all the Ricer Retards....

and why do that to a beautiful Marauder?

Pulling a 4400 lb fully equipped, 4 door sedan down the track in 12 seconds is the deal.
Fully equipped minus one headlight lol.


We're waiting for ANYBODY to show us old timers how to do it. We never figured it out, so maybe the young guns can show us how it's done!
All in due time. You've waited 5 years so far a little bit longer isn't going to hurt you.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

I would try this if I didn't think I would ruin streetability of the car. It can't be impossible, just probably requires more than bolt ons. Having the heads extensively worked would probably do it but it seems like people just do bolt ons or boost and there is nothing in between. This is more of a driver's car and not a gearhead's car

[Blackened300a]

I would try this if I didn't think I would ruin streetability of the car. It can't be impossible, just probably requires more than bolt ons. Having the heads extensively worked would probably do it but it seems like people just do bolt ons or boost and there is nothing in between. This is more of a driver's car and not a gearhead's car

I dont see this taking more then the right gearing, bolt-ons, and tuning. This is the reason for this experiment. Can a 4200lb Marauder run 12's with its full interior and the same internals the engine came with off the assembly line? Bolt-ons and tuning are the things all modder's do but, we want to answer the question if its possible for the do-it yourself modder to put this car in the 12's N/A.

This time next year or perhaps the year after, if a thread pops up asking if 12's N/A can be done with bolt-ons and tuning.
We will have the tested answer.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

I read back to 07 and there was a guy on here w/ ported heads and FRP cams and he was only running 13.5s (this was the guy that tid the 6 speed install), which seems really slow considering the amount of $$ it must have cost. A dyno tune on his setup would probably have been the first 12's NA car

[SCmarauder46]

A real question:

Are you guys looking to do this on street tires, drag radials, or full blown slicks?

For those who are confident enough, and have the money to do so (on top of a FULL BOLT ON N/A CAR), i'd say get yourself a nice set of slicks on the cheap, a racegas tune, and 4.56 gears.

If you cant do it based on these parameters, its a losing battle. Unless i completely have the wrong idea......

[offroadkarter]

How about 14.51 with only an intake? :rolleyes:


how bout 14.2 with an intake and a ZOMG reinhart tune!

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/offroadkarter/windows%20error%20message/788491ec.png

or even better, 13.83 with really basic mods

http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=39502

[DOOM]

I think chris or Paul will be the ones to do it. I will be watching you 2 in the spring. BTW Paul the polished covers add 11.6 hp :D

[Blackened300a]

I think chris or Paul will be the ones to do it. I will be watching you 2 in the spring. BTW Paul the polished covers add 11.6 hp :D

11.6hp is a tenth! That means 13.5's now!

[Aren Jay]

.............................. .....

[Blackened300a]

You could always just put a bigger engine in.

Yeah Ill get on that. :shake:

[ctrlraven]

I think chris or Paul will be the ones to do it. I will be watching you 2 in the spring. BTW Paul the polished covers add 11.6 hp :D
My next goal is just to beat Paul's current 13.6 time. I can see us one upping each other till 12's come. All I know is that I am going to have as much fun as I can with doing this and can't wait to get my 4.10s and hit up Capitol in March.

[hot-rauder]

You could always just put a bigger engine in.


Fueling the fire eh?

Yeha running 12s in that stock Marauder with its BIGGER STOCK MOTOR?!?!

Do you listen to yourself speak Aren? Or do you just drift in and out?

[ctrlraven]

You could always just put a bigger engine in.


Yeah Ill get on that. :shake:


Fueling the fire eh?

Yeha running 12s in that stock Marauder with its BIGGER STOCK MOTOR?!?!

Do you listen to yourself speak Aren? Or do you just drift in and out?

Aren, can you read the words that we have been typing or what we have been typing gets magically changed when you read it lol? We are doing this WITH OUR STOCK BOTTOM END 4.6L , no forged internals, no bore or stroke increase, no balancing, just what Ford designed and stuffed in the car.

[Blackened300a]

whoops wrong thread

[CKMustangCobra]

With all the mods out there I don't see it being an issue at all.

Engine:

-Port/shorten intake
-Head work (mill down to bump compression)
-Valves springs, cams
-Underdrive pulleys
-Electric W/P
-Full exhaust or Just LTs with cutouts

Drivetrain:

-High stall TC
-J-mod
-Built trans
-Heavy Flexplate
-CF Driveshaft
-4.56:1 gears
-Lightweight Wheels... skinnies up front (less rotational loss) and some sticky meat out back

Suspension:

-Adjustable Shocks
-Tubular K-member
-4-link
-Replace as much as possible with lightweight components

Do everything possible to make it lighter.

Tune it all up.... should be deep 12s for sure.

[merc]

With all the mods out there I don't see it being an issue at all.

Engine:

-Port/shorten intake
-Head work (mill down to bump compression)
-Valves springs, cams
-Underdrive pulleys
-Electric W/P
-Full exhaust or Just LTs with cutouts

Drivetrain:

-High stall TC
-J-mod
-Built trans
-Heavy Flexplate
-CF Driveshaft
-4.56:1 gears
-Lightweight Wheels... skinnies up front (less rotational loss) and some sticky meat out back

Suspension:

-Adjustable Shocks
-Tubular K-member
-4-link
-Replace as much as possible with lightweight components

Do everything possible to make it lighter.

Tune it all up.... should be deep 12s for sure.

Put a parts and labor estimate on each recommended item and see what totals are.

[CKMustangCobra]

Put a parts and labor estimate on each recommended item and see what totals are.

How fast do you want to spend? LOL

Not cheap. A lot can be done myself... but it all depends on the person I guess.

[FordNut]

With all the mods out there I don't see it being an issue at all.

Engine:

-Port/shorten intake Been done
-Head work (mill down to bump compression) it's already 10:1, but ok
-Valves springs, cams getting really expensive
-Underdrive pulleys been done
-Electric W/P been done
-Full exhaust or Just LTs with cutouts been done

Drivetrain:

-High stall TC been done
-J-mod been done
-Built trans been done
-Heavy Flexplate why?
-CF Driveshaft why?
-4.56:1 gears been done
-Lightweight Wheels... skinnies up front (less rotational loss) and some sticky meat out back been done

Suspension:

-Adjustable Shocks been done
-Tubular K-member does not exist
-4-link factory equipped, upgrades have been done
-Replace as much as possible with lightweight components not much available

Do everything possible to make it lighter.

Tune it all up.... should be deep 12s for sure. That's what all the newbies say, the ones who haven't already tried it. We just want somebody to show us it can be done instead of telling us about it without backing it up

Still waiting for some timeslips instead of keyboard racers telling us how easy it is.

[merc]

How fast do you want to spend? LOL

Not cheap. A lot can be done myself... but it all depends on the person I guess.

That's my point. Some of the mods you list are expensive if you group them together at once. Getting head work done can be costly. 4.56 gears will consume gas and have an associated expense. It looks like you are approaching the price of a S/C kit.

[sd8683]

Still waiting for some timeslips instead of keyboard racers telling us how easy it is.

Brian..... I know you're a smart guy....... And you know what you're talking about. All we/I are trying to say is that it IS possible, maybe not by me..... maybe not by the other guy's that are gonna try..... But it IS possible..... Unfortunately you won't see a timeslip from me until somewhere around the middle of May. I had an unfortunate incident where a wire fell on my car and damaged it. My car was scheduled to have my headers, 3500 stall torque converter, new valve body and a custom dyno tune from one of the most renowned shop's in the North East. So now I have to reschedule my install date which was scheduled for this past Wednesday:(

Sean

[O's Fan Rich]

=sd8683;738662 Unfortunately you won't see a timeslip from me until somewhere around the middle of May. I had an unfortunate incident where a wire fell on my car and damaged it. My car was scheduled to have my headers, 3500 stall torque converter, new valve body and a custom dyno tune from one of the most renowned shop's in the North East.

Sean

That was no accident, Sean.... it was God telling you to slow down....
and to save your money for Red Sox tickets......

[sd8683]

That was no accident, Sean.... it was God telling you to slow down....
and to save your money for Red Sox tickets......


Haha...... Rich....... No matter how much I save I'll never be able to afford sox tickets! Friggin yuppies:tantrum:

[FordNut]

Brian..... I know you're a smart guy....... And you know what you're talking about. All we/I are trying to say is that it IS possible, maybe not by me..... maybe not by the other guy's that are gonna try..... But it IS possible..... Unfortunately you won't see a timeslip from me until somewhere around the middle of May. I had an unfortunate incident where a wire fell on my car and damaged it. My car was scheduled to have my headers, 3500 stall torque converter, new valve body and a custom dyno tune from one of the most renowned shop's in the North East. So now I have to reschedule my install date which was scheduled for this past Wednesday:(

Sean

I'm just saying, virtually every one of the mods you guys have mentioned were done to my car. It still was in the low-mid 13's. Every tuner I spoke with said if I wanted more with it N/A I would have to do cams. That's a lot of $$. At that time cams alone cost about $1200-1500 plus about $1000 labor. My car was one of the very few that dyno'ed over 300 rwhp N/A so I speak from experience.

[sd8683]

Brian...... Do you think you would have reached the 12's if you did the cams and head work?

[FordNut]

Maybe. But it wasn't worth the price of admission. $2500 for 0.3 seconds. About $1000 per tenth. The closer you get to being maxed out, the more it costs for an incremental increase in performance.

Didn't the "rules" somewhere along the way say stock internals? or was it just stock displacement but anything else is ok?

[sd8683]

Maybe. But it wasn't worth the price of admission. $2500 for 0.3 seconds. About $1000 per tenth. The closer you get to being maxed out, the more it costs for an incremental increase in performance.

Didn't the "rules" somewhere along the way say stock internals? or was it just stock displacement but anything else is ok?

I believe the rules said "stock displacement" I could be wrong though:confused:

[Blackened300a]

I believe the rules said "stock displacement" I could be wrong though:confused:

Stock everything internal. No heads cams or intake. Bolt-ons and tuning were the rules.

[CKMustangCobra]

I think you all need to be clearer in posts.

Thread title was 12s N/A possible. Then I read stock shortblock.... then I read stuff is too expensive. LOL

Come on.... make up your minds.

If you want 12s in a Marauder... N/A.... you WILL be revving the piss out of it, moving as much air as possible... and getting the car as light as possible.

Someone quoted me and asked WHY to a few things.

Heavy flexplate will hold more inertia on launch and keep the RPMs up.

CF driveshafts are really strong and weigh next to nothing... the less rotational loss the better. All the HP will be used to puch the car forward instead of moving drivetrain parts. This goes with skinnies up front and lightweight wheels.

[CKMustangCobra]

and to the person who asked everyone to start posting proof of this....

I doubt anyone would waste the money needed to run 12s N/A when a blower or nitrous would be cheaper and keep the car more streetable.

So.... this thread is in theory... answers are also in theory.

[O's Fan Rich]

Personally, the only rules I would have are:

1- stock weight ( at least 4k.....)
2- stock displacement ( no big bores or strokers.....Joe....)
3- Street legal ( Licensed, insured, DOT street tires)

All other stuff is fair game. I'd love to see an NA car do it.

[CKMustangCobra]

Personally, the only rules I would have are:

1- stock weight ( at least 4k.....)
2- stock displacement ( no big bores or strokers.....Joe....)
3- Street legal ( Licensed, insured, DOT street tires)

All other stuff is fair game. I'd love to see an NA car do it.

Stock weight? That's no fun. Why would you want a heavy car?

[O's Fan Rich]

Stock weight? That's no fun. Why would you want a heavy car?

Cuz it's a Marauder.
NA 12 sec Mustangs are all over.

If you lower weight to Mustang range, are you not just driving a longer Mustang?

I think/thought the point is to get an NA Marauder there.

[FordNut]

Someone quoted me and asked WHY to a few things.

Heavy flexplate will hold more inertia on launch and keep the RPMs up.

CF driveshafts are really strong and weigh next to nothing... the less rotational loss the better. All the HP will be used to puch the car forward instead of moving drivetrain parts. This goes with skinnies up front and lightweight wheels.
I don't really buy the flexplate part (not with an automatic transmission), but maybe the driveshaft is true. I'll bet the ET differece between CF and MMX couldn't be measured, but it should be smoother. Nobody I've contacted about CF driveshafts recommended them for street use.

If the heavier flexplate would be a benefit then why wouldn't a heavier torque converter be beneficial? Everybody goes with smaller, lighter converters for improved performance.

[bigjon]

I don't really buy the flexplate part (not with an automatic transmission), but maybe the driveshaft is true. I'll bet the ET differece between CF and MMX couldn't be measured, but it should be smoother. Nobody I've contacted about CF driveshafts recommended them for street use.

If the heavier flexplate would be a benefit then why wouldn't a heavier torque converter be beneficial? Everybody goes with smaller, lighter converters for improved performance.

there is a member on cvn that has had a cf ds for probably 3-4 years on his daily driver. he has had no issues that i am aware of. i can see why they would not be recommended though.

[Joe Walsh]

there is a member on cvn that has had a cf ds for probably 3-4 years on his daily driver. he has had no issues that i am aware of. i can see why they would not be recommended though.

I bought my carbon fiber driveshaft from PST and was the prototype for the CF driveshaft....13 lbs and it spins smooooooth!
No issues at all except for the sticker price....:eek:
I've had it on for 4+ years with plenty of 1/4 mile runs...but I don't drive mine in the winter.

[Bradley G]

The stock shaft weighs what?,... Gotta' be fifty + lbs, more! X2 for driveline weight, you got a >.1 ET reduction:P

I bought my carbon fiber driveshaft from PST and was the prototype for the CF driveshaft....13 lbs and it spins smooooooth!
No issues at all except for the sticker price....:eek:
I've had it on for 4+ years with plenty of 1/4 mile runs...but I don't drive mine in the winter.

[FordNut]

Both Mark Williams and Dynotech steered me away from CF for the street. If folks are running them, that's fine but I'm not going to go against what the manufacturer tells me.

The Mark Williams MMC shaft was really lightweight, shipping weight was 22 lb. including box, packing materials, etc.

[ImpalaSlayer]

the stock drive shaft is very light to start. its ALUM. you wont see me bothering with a carbon fiber one

[CKMustangCobra]

Heavier Flexplate will assist in keeping the revs up during launch.

I said a built transmission.... that includes a transbrake on a high stall.

Weight issue. If I could drive a 2900lbs Marauder I would. I don't care that the stock weight is over 4000lbs... If I want a faster Marauder... I need a LIGHTER Marauder.

I really haven't planned it all out... but in theory (as this thread is) with enough money (theory) you could get lighter wheels, lighter suspension, lighter driveshaft, CF hood and decklid, remove weight in the trunk... do what is needed to drop some pounds so you can net some ET.

Mach1s have the same engine rear end and optional transmission and they are in the 13s stock? Because they weight over 1000lbs less.

Dropping weight gets you into the low low low 14s.... then start adding the go fast goodies... 12s would be easy.

[FordNut]

I'm not really from Missouri, but still want somebody to SHOW ME.

[FordNut]

Heavier Flexplate will assist in keeping the revs up during launch..
I disagree. More mass means slower revving. Manual vs Automatic transmission.


I really haven't planned it all out... but in theory (as this thread is) with enough money (theory) you could get lighter wheels, lighter suspension, lighter driveshaft, CF hood and decklid, remove weight in the trunk... do what is needed to drop some pounds so you can net some ET.
Boatloads of money for all this. A decklid will be several thousand, since you gotta have a mold made. MAYBE class glass would make one of their fiberglass hoods in CF.

[sd8683]

Boatloads of money for all this. A decklid will be several thousand, since you gotta have a mold made. MAYBE class glass would make one of their fiberglass hoods in CF.


I believe there was "talk" of class glass making a trunk lid not to long ago.

[CKMustangCobra]

I disagree. More mass means slower revving. Manual vs Automatic transmission.

It is simple physics. The more weight rotating... the more inertia it holds. The snap of a launch will shock the engine down in RPMs.... add more rotational weight on the engine and the energy built is harder to slow down.

Since the engine has already revved up to the point it needs, the ET gained in the 60' is better than the minor ET loss due to building RPMs with the extra weight.

This has been known in drag racing for years. They don't use lightweight flywheels and flexplates in drag racing... that is for road/curcuit racing where the RPMs are constatly changing and gears are constantly changing.

[FordNut]

I have never seen "the snap of a launch shock the engine down in RPMs" with an automatic. Launch and the rev's go up.

Actually all of the flexplates I've seen are lightweight. I will agree on the flywheel for manual transmisions but disagree on the flexplate and automatic transmission setups. The engine has NOT already revved to the point it needs to be, it is just below the stall speed and needs to rev quickly to overcome the losses in the converter. It takes advantage of the torque multiplication of the converter.

With a manual transmission, the opposite is true. The engine is revved up and needs to not bog down when the clutch is dropped because it immediately applies load to the engine and is a direct mechanical connection without torque multiplication.

If more rotating mass was better, everybody would be running 12" torque converters. And adding huge harmonic balancers on the crank snout.

[CKMustangCobra]

Whatever man. I've only built a few 10 second and 9 second Mustangs with automatics.

What do I know?

[FordNut]

Whatever man. I've only built a few 10 second and 9 second Mustangs with automatics.

What do I know?

Yeah, whatever. It's all talk anyway.

I'm still waiting to see that 12 second N/A Marauder.

[Glenn]

I agree with Fordnut on trans, flex plate and TC. My 60' second times suppport it. I have a SC with modest mods that cut 1.59 sec 60' times which are far better then many street driven DD Mustangs which weigh 700# or more less then my 4,500# MM with driver. My 60' times are the mainly the result of my suspension, tires and 3000 TC with a stock flex plate.

Glenn Ford :burnout:

[RR|Suki]

Whatever man. I've only built a few 10 second and 9 second Mustangs with automatics.

What do I know?

Maybe you should run lighter flexplates and they'd be even faster ;)

[CKMustangCobra]

Maybe you should run lighter flexplates and they'd be even faster ;)

We tried with negative results on three different cars. Lighter flexplates loss us around .09 to .15 in the 60' but gained us marginal trap speed.

The combos that would help the ultimate goal (lower ET) were heavier flexplates to help absorb the transbrake hit.

[timfromme]

Can we go old school and drop in a stroke and bored 460 into the engine bay? As far as I know there is nothing better than bigger displacement. How about shoehorning a 5.4 liter DOHC in? I'm sure that would make a difference. I remember back when, if you were able to make 1 HP per cubic inch that was fantastic, now we are pushing towards 1.5 or more? I remember when hot rodding a car was sposed to be fun and for your own enjoyment, whether stock, supercharged, or turboed. I'm just happy that I have a one of a kind car that no one else has around here. timfromme.

[ctrlraven]

I believe there was "talk" of class glass making a trunk lid not to long ago.
Yeah I started the thread, need XX amount of people to commit to it first with a small deposit before Class Glass would start anything. Their fiberglass hoods are cheap when you compare them to other limited production vehicles. I would only assume that a trunk lid would be less or around the same as the hood which is $450-500 right now.