This Stallion Torque Converter is GREAT!

[BillyGman]

The following are my results w/the new P.I. Stallion Torque converter installed. What a difference!!!! But first let me point out that to acheive my ET's, trap speed, and 0-60MPH times, I'm using a "G-Tech" GPS device that plugs into the car's lighter socket, so these aren't actual track times, however I've heard from a number of people that these devices are accurate. I know there are variables such as the piece of asphalt that I've chosen vs. a real track, but the one thing I do know for sure is that the repeatability of this device is pretty good, and I've used the same piece of road for all my BEFORE and AFTER 1/4 mile tests while using this device, so for me the one important and applicable detail is how much quicker any of the mods I've done to my MM have made this car:
The air was very cool (50 degrees F.) which definately made my car run probably 3 tenths of a sec quicker, however it was within a few degrees of that during my last 1/4 mile test which was right before having the Stallion T/C installed. So the following changes in ET's are relavent..........

2003 MM 300A w/Reinhart chip, plugs, and thermostat, 4.56 gears, and STOCK CONVERTER.....
Best ET 14.6 sec
Trap speed 89.9 MPH
0-60MPH 6.0 sec

Same car w/all of the above EXCEPT NOW W/P.I. STALLION TORQUE CONVERTER....
Best ET 13.91 sec
Trap speed 101.3 MPH
0-60MPH 5.3 sec

What a change! I knew the car was quicker, but I wasn't sure how much. The Stallion T/C has really allowed the car to take advantage of the 4.56 rear end gears I've installed. Keep in mind that I have a completely stock exhaust w/all four cats on it still. And I haven't installed any underdrive pulleys either.
For me the bottom line conclusion is that w/the Stallion converter I've reduced my ET by .70 seconds! That exceeds my expectations. So the converter has made the most difference, w/the Reinhart computer chip being the second most since that made a reduction in my ET of .50 sec. from my original bone stock ET of 15.2 I also think that the 4.56 gears along w/the stallion converter have also helped a great deal. The car now will smoke the tires off the line from a dead punch, so I coouldn't even get into the accelerator 100% during this 1/4 mile test until the car was already moving at about 20MPH.

[studio460]

That's very impressive, Gman! Finally, a decent 0-60MPH time on a N/A Marauder! If I could get that performance with only gears and the Stallion TC, I might reconsider my blower purchase. Did your seat-of-the-pants meter really notice the difference off the line too? Also, were you able to smoke the tires at all before you installed the P.I. the torque converter (but with the 4.56 gears already installed)? I'm probably only going to go as high as 4.30s (if I go that route). Oh, and lastly, did you get a 60-foot time as well from your G-Tech?

[BillyGman]

the Stallion T/C has made all the difference. I had decided that this was the last thing I was going to do to the car, and if that didn't make the kind of difference that I was looking for w/these gears, and I was just going to give up. To be more specific in answering your questions, let me point out that NO, w/all the other MODS that I've listed INCLUDING THE 4.56 gears, my car would NOT leave any rubber at all w/out using two feet on the gas and the brake. But now w/the Stallion converter it smokes em up from a stand still w/out touching the brake at all. Even more so on a hill, but even on a level surface it does it. The tach will go up to 6200RPM's in first gear while those big 18" wheels spin. And then as you're pulling away you smell that rubber:) . It's just a small and faint cloud though because these tires don't smoke easy. But you definately sit there and spin, and if you want a thick cloud, then just hold your foot on that brake for 1 and a half to 2 seconds at the most and you'll get a real thick cloud. But enough about that. As far as seat of the pants , YES, I did feel it, but I didn't want to be over zealuos until I got some #'s since I've been so dissapointed in the past w/these gears. But this G-Tech thing will not give you 0-60 FOOT times, but only 0-60MPH times. With the way this car comes off the line now, it definately makes a difference in your ET if you smoke em up first just prior to blasting through the 1/4 mile. before I had the Stallion converter installed, it didn't really matter since the tires wouldn't spin at all from a dead punch anyway(even w/the 4.56 gearing).

[BillyGman]

let me also explain that the higher stall speed of the Stallion converter (which is 3000RPM) took away the hard shifts that Dennis's chip originaly gave the car. I liked the hard shifts, but I'll trade hard shifts for the way this car accelerates now any day of the week!!!!!

[studio460]

Gman:

Thanks for your detailed (and fast!) reply--much appreciated! Lots to think about now . . .

[BillyGman]

Now I have created one problem for myself......when I get those 16" snow tires, it's gonna be real hard for me to resist doing smoke shows w/them whenever the pavement is dry!!!!!

[studio460]

Yup, I'd like to go to black 17" rims and 50-series tires myself. Having a heck of a time finding black rims in our size that I like . . .

SMOKE 'EM UP, Billy!

[SergntMac]

What "numbers" your g-tech meter reports are secondary to the difference between your before and after. We know you feel the difference, adding a "second opinion" is cool. Nice work, thanks for the 411.

[JET]

Way to go GMAN

[Marauderer]

Nice! In the 13's and for what, a couple grand? That's amazing! Now you need to see if you can find some non-oxygenated gas!!!!

[frdwrnch]

How does this converter do in everyday driving with the higher stall? I've been debating this upgrade and your post is inspiring. Do you experience any harshness in the driveline when the converter locks and unlocks? How does it do at slow speeds?

[BillyGman]

about how the car would behave in evry day traffic w/the higher stall speed also, since this is the first hi-perf car that I've ever owned that had an automatic transmission, and all this hi-stall speed stuff is new to me as far as my experience goes. But I can assure you that there isn't any driveline harshness at all coming off the line. Having a converter w/a higher stall speed doesn't make the car jerk when accelerating from a stand still as if you're doing a nuetral drop. Atleast not w/a 3000RPM stall speed anyway(I dunno what a 5000RPM stall speed would be like, but you wouldn't want to go any higher than 3000 RPM w/stall speed on the street according to the converter manufacture(Precision Industries) since it would build up too much heat in the transmission. But with a 3000RPM stall, while driving normal in traffic, you would never even know that my car has a higher stall speed even if I let you drive it unless I told you. The converter lock-up once you hit overdrive is slightly more noticeable, but I wouldn't call it "Harsh" by any means. if you want to read more about this convereter, I strongly suggest that you go to the Precision Industries website www.converter.com and click on the "Stallion" link at the top of the page. This was the best $800 I've spent on my car! And I have no reason to say that other than the fact that it's true.

[Constable]

Yea... I'm really considering it now as well. I never wanted it because I was dead set on getting an S/C. It would be a shame to get all that new low-end torque from the S/C and then waste it due to the converter.

Now I'm not so sure about wanting to go with the S/C. Maybe the converter will finish up my mods and give my car a nice kick in the butt.

BillyG ---- Congrats.... Go get to a track and put down some solid #'s for us! I'd love to hear what your car will do in a controlled environment.

[Zack]

Get a trans cooler, IMMEDIATELY

[BillyGman]

I'd like to get to the track as well. I'd also like to get the car on the Dyno right now, but since I've went through two gear changes, a $500 driveshaft, and an $800 torque converter, I've spent a lot more $$ on this car than I had planeed, and now I'm really behinh on my bills(NOT good!). So even though I'm a spender, and I'm not stingy by any stretch of the imagination, moneyis really an issue for me right now, and I'm going to have to work overtime to dig myself out of a hole. So I'm not sure when I'll be able to get to the track, or even get the car on the dyno. But iof and when I do, I'll be sure to let you guys know my results.

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by Zack
Get a trans cooler, IMMEDIATELY

The Precision Industries company insists that a trans cooler isn't needed w/the Stallion converter as long as you don't go higher than 3000RPM w/the tall speed, however I have been thinking about that. It's just another expense:rolleyes: but I understand you point Zack.

[Logan]

Zack, My tranny RARELY runs above 190 degrees with my stallion installed. Told myself if it consistently hits 200, then I'll upgrade the cooler...

[BillyGman]

thanks very much for that info..........

[Logan]

Get yourself a Tranny temp gauge... :) Easy install and worthy gauge to have in our cars...

I've seen other cars that ARE running hotter than mine...

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by BillyGman
I'd like to get to the track as well. I'd also like to get the car on the Dyno right now, but since I've went through two gear changes, a $500 driveshaft, and an $800 torque converter, I've spent a lot more $$ on this car than I had planned...I'm not sure when I'll be able to get to the track, or even get the car on the dyno. But if and when I do, I'll be sure to let you guys know my results.

Just a word of caution on track and dyno testing. I went through this stuff step by step myself a year ago. Some of the mods you have added will not show ANY results on a dyno, and others not on the track. Keep an open mind when reading results, wait until you see BOTH tests completed, and analyse from there. Otherwise, you will be disappointed, and for no reason. The performance is there, but you have to know where to look for the correct proof.

[BillyGman]

I agree atleast in part. For instance, any gear change will NOT change the HP rating, therefore the new gears wouldn't ever give me a different Dyno reading than a bone stock MM would, even though the gear change should give you better acceleration, and therefore a better quarter mile time(unless ofcourse you go too extreme w/the gearing, and your top end suffers so much that the car actually loses potential for a better quartermile. But there's no way that I'd expect that from 4.56 gears since the car's trap speed as measured by the GPS device has actually increased by 7MPH over the bone stock trap speed that it ran). And I expect the Torque converter to better both my ET's as well as my Dyno #'s since it's putting more torque to the transmission. According to Precision Industries, stock converters as well as some after market ones have a 1.92:1 torque multiplication ratio, whereas their Stallion converter has a 2.52:1 ratio. So that should show up in the Dyno tests as well as in the ET's, unlike the gear change.

[studio460]

Well, Billy, between your enthusiasm for the PI torque converter and Logan's enthusiasm for his new Kooks set-up gains, I might just have to reconsider my power-adding strategy now (I'm still leaning heavily toward the Trilogy solution at this point, especially since they're soon to test for CARB certification). Can you tell me how many shop hours were spent on the TC install?

I'm sure that anyone already with Reinhart Automotive's Stage 1 mods or a FordChip dynotune only needs to add the Kooks and the PI TC for what's probably the best bang-for-the-buck, seat-of-the-pants fun that's still thousands shy of a supercharger solution. This is a tough one. I'm keeping track of my cumulative spending on bolt-on mods so that I don't spend so much, that for only a few more dollars, I could have invested in a supercharger in the first place. It's hard to resist, as you all know, all of the many things all the supporting vendors here have to offer for our Marauders.

[BillyGman]

of your decision at hand. There are pros and cons on both sides of that decision, and I won't list them since it would probably spark a debate that would lead nowhere because at the end of the day, it's still an individual decision, it depends on what's most important to the individual making that decision, and either way you slice it, there's still going to be good arguments for, and against whatever decision you make.
But to answer your question, it took three and one half hours for the install. But keep in mind that w/the Stallion Torque converter installed, your car will still not move like mine off the line unless you were to opt for the 4.56 gears like I have. Unless perhaps you also have the X-pipe, long tube headers, and U/D pulleys like MartyO has.

[martyo]

Originally posted by NBC Shooter
Well, Billy, between your enthusiasm for the PI torque converter and Logan's enthusiasm for his new Kooks set-up gains, I might just have to reconsider my power-adding strategy now (I'm still leaning heavily toward the Trilogy solution at this point, especially since they're soon to test for CARB certification). Can you tell me how many shop hours were spent on the TC install?


Just so you know: I did the TC about 6 months ago and haven't regretted it for one minute. The install cost as about $250 (about 3 hours labor). I believe that Billy's labor bill was slightly higher, but he paid a dealer to do the install, which often carries a higher labor rate.

I did the shorty headers about 2 months ago (before there was serious talk of the Kook's set-up). I got the shorties, X-pipe, hi-flow cats, etc., from our friend Mr. Reinhart. I personally like the shorties better than the long tube set up because in my opinion the sound is better (I can not roll into the Courthouse parking lot rattling everyone's windows -- unless of course I am screaming). I just have not had the time to dyno the car after the header install. I was hoping to do that today, but someone messed with my Court calendar and I too have to pay the bills. However, while I do not have the dyno pulls post-header install to back it up, I do have the timeslips. If you haven't seen them or looked at my signature in a while, in Texas I was running 14.2's all weekend long and even squeaked out a couple of 14.1 passes. Not bad, eh? Well, that's what I thought. Then last Friday I put down two 13.8 passes and backed it up with a final 13.7 pass. And, I do not yet have a blower installed.

While your results may vary, I think the build path for an NA Marauder is clear and the results are now proven. Any questions?

[Constable]

No questions at all... that is exactly why I may decide to stay N/A. When I first joined the site ( a mere 6 months ago) I was flamed for posting that a tuner in my neck of the woods had a MM turning high 13's. Everyone swore up and down that it wasn't possible for an N/A Marauder to do so. Everyone also swore that headers didn't do anything but hurt our cars. Now, we're all beginning to see what a properly tuned N/A car can do. I strongly believe that there are still some go-fast resources out there which we have yet to tap. Over the next 6 months, we'll see what develops.

[2003 MIB]

While your results may vary, I think the build path for an NA Marauder is clear and the results are now proven. Any questions?

Nope- the path is clear. I'm just gald I didn't spend any money before the results were posted and verified. I guess that's what the site is all about. It's good to learn from other people's experiences and/or mistakes.:D

[Marauder57]

When it is all said and done..with the Mods and improvements Dennis has come up and all the other goodies he has in the hopper, it seems feasable that a NA Marauder (probably MartyO) will go low 13's maybe with the right driver maybe even high 12's....That is pretty darn good....and even better than I would have expected.... :D

[2003_MM_FYRE49]

Zack, are you insisting Billy get a trans cooler because of the 4.56 gear ratio set up he has, or because he put in the 3000 stall converter? thanks,

Tim :fire: 49

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by BillyGman
I expect the Torque converter to better both my ET's as well as my Dyno #'s since it's putting more torque to the transmission. According to Precision Industries, stock converters as well as some after market ones have a 1.92:1 torque multiplication ratio, whereas their Stallion converter has a 2.52:1 ratio. So that should show up in the Dyno tests as well as in the ET's, unlike the gear change.

This is exactly why I posted a caution here Billy. On the dyno, you'll see some minor changes in torque production, but not any serious change in torque numbers. Two conditions result in low numbers after adding the Stallion.

1-The car is on a dyno, hopefully a DynoJet, which measure the movement of a static load, 3400 pound of resistance, and the computer calculates that into S.A.E. RWTQ. The absence of actual wind resistance has some affect here, and the number you get from the dyno, is your minimum. It's guaranteed you actually have more power, but you deal with the minimum numbers.

2-WinPep S.A.E. correction software will provide two reports, one is a graph of your HP and TQ through the pull, the other is a report in columns of numbers. We are all used to reading the graph, but the column report is where you see your power improvements from a Stallion.

When I was building my first MM, I did the back to back before and after dynos on the Stallion (it's still posted here somewhere, I am sure) The "mean" or RWTQ number was much lower than I expected, I recall a spread from 289 to 301 RWTQ FTLbs imporvement. However, what I could see in the report, and on the chart, was where this torque came into play.

Prior to the install, my MM built torque cleanly and evenly throughout the pull, a nice sexy curve until 5200 RPM, where it began to fall. Reading the column report, at 2000 RPM, I had 90 FtLb. working. At 2500, it was 110 FtLbs, and it grew on from there, through 5800 RPM with 289 FtLb. RWTQ.

After the install, everything changed. At 1900 RPM, I had 230 FtLbs at work, at 2500 RPMs, a full 250. By 3500 RPMs (where my HP starts to skyrocket), 273 Ft.Lbs and by 5800, 301 Ft.Lbs RWTQ. The associated graph went up, and over to your right, in almost a straight line. My sexy curve was gone, and so was my MM from the line.

Bottom line, the power was there and hard at work, but in a way you can't point to without reading the reports thoroughly. At first glance, you'll be wondering WTF...750 bucks for 12 FtLb? But read again, and see where it's at and what it's doing. That's what you get from a Stallion...L A U N C H.

We can't measure launch on a dyno, but we can in 0-60 MPH time, or, 60 foot time and 1/8 mile time on the 1320 track.


Just my .02c...

[BillyGman]

very interesting info there. Thankyou for that explaination.;)

[vegasmarauder]

BillyGman
I checked the site link. Is that how you order? I must have missed the price too. Thanks.

[BillyGman]

I have chosen to purchase the Stallion converter directly from Precision Industries. Sometimes I prefer to spread my business around a little simply to see who caters to their customers the most. But if you do choose to purchase the Stallion converter directly from Precision Industries, then just call them up and they will give you a price quote. Just tell them that you're interested in the Stallion converter, and the year, make, and model of your car, and what stall speed you want. (3000RPM stall is what you want, and they also recommend that for the Marauder). You can choose the single plate model, or the multi-disc one, but I've chosen the single plate one since it's $300 cheaper, and even they will tell you that the only additional benefit that the multi-disc model offers is that you can have it lock up at wide open throttle when you're going to the track. And you won't need that unless you'll be going to the track every week. But both of them are locking converters since that's what our cars use.

[studio460]

Wow, Sarge, that's a pretty dramatic commentary on the performance of the Stallion torque converter. I had no idea the benefit was this substantial! Thank you for posting the data! I thought it would help to illustrate the difference before and after the install in a way which better highlights how dramatic the improvement really is using your data from the post above. Hopefully, my arithmetic is correct:

[Table below uses numbers posted from Sarge]

BEFORE P.I. Torque Converter Install:
RPM / torque ft.lbs.
2,000/90 . . . . . . . producing 30% of max. torque/NA
2,500/110 . . . . . . producing 38% of max. torque/delta of +22%
5,800/289 . . . . . . producing 100% of max. torque /delta of +162%

AFTER P.I. Torque Converter Install:
RPM / torque ft.lbs.
1,900/230 . . . . . . producing 72% of max. torque/NA . . . . . . . . . . . . +155% increase in torque
2,500/250 . . . . . . producing 79% of max. torque/delta of +09% . . . +127% increase in torque
3,500/301 . . . . . . producing 95% of max. torque/delta of +20% . . . NA
5,800/317* . . . . . producing 100% of max. torque. *(estimated)

Note that a "+155% increase" (delta) in relative torque is the same thing as saying that, with the Stallion torque converter, you are producing 255% of the torque you were producing, at that particular RPM, as you were producing before the TC install. Similarly, a "+127 increase" (delta) in relative torque is the same thing as saying that, with the Stallion torque converter, you are producing 227% of the torque you were producing, at that particular RPM, as you were producing before the TC install. Hope that all makes sense, and If I made any dumb math mistakes, please point them out kindly!

[studio460]

Okay, after looking at my little power table above, I got to thinking . . .

Stallion torque converter is what, about $800? Install about $250? Okay, that's $1,050 for the TC. Now, add some 4.30s. What are those, about $180? I don't know what the labor is for the rear-end install . . . about $300 or so? Okay, so about $500 for the gears.

A little over $1,500 for torque and gears. Hmm . . . not bad.

Lemme see now . . . Trilogy blower: $5,500. Installation: $1,800-2,000? Plus, if I get the blower, how could I refuse adding headers to complete the package? So about $7,500 for the Trilogy set-up, installed, without headers. Say about, $8,800 with headers (which sounds an awful lot like $9,000!). Now, however, my 75,000-mile engine warranty is moot. With the TC/gears option, I would think only my transmission and rear end warranty is now gone. Right? I suppose Ford could deny a warranty claim on an engine failure for just about ANY mod. But a torque converter? Hmmm . . . I know they could deny it for just an underdrive pulley . . . Hmmm . . .

Let's just say the torque and gears are $1,700 (knowing the shops I generally get ***** by--I paid $400 for my Flowmaster/tips install!). Okay, lemme make it $1,600 for argument's sake here . . .

So, $1,600 (which sounds A LOT like $1,500). $1,600-$7,500=$5,900. Hmmm . . .

I paid about $30K out the door for my Marauder. Add $10K for the blower, headers, and miscellaneous drivetrain add-on crap. Now it's $40K. The 350-horsepower, 330-ft.lb., supercharged C32 AMG I wanted is $52K. Hmmm . . .

Now, say I spend the $1,600 on the TC/gears. Then I decide later, I NEED a Trilogy blower! $1,600+$7,500=$9,100. Hmmm . . .





Aw hell . . . what's another $1,600 anyway?

[martyo]

Shooter: No ofeense brother, but I could have told you all that a long time ago! ;)

Just add the T/C to the list. You won't be sorry. Order it from Dennis (in my opinion, he has the best price/service).

[studio460]

Thanks, Martyo . . .

Okay. Stallion TC, 4.30s, Kooks headers + X-pipe. $2,500 and I'm DONE. I hope.

[studio460]

Okay.

Now, my only question to both you Martyo, and Logan, since both of you have similar set-ups (but higher-octane gas available to you both) to what I am now planning is . . .

Can you lay a patch (spin tires) from a dead stop on level, dry asphalt without torque-braking? If you can, how long of a patch? Thanks.

[martyo]

Originally posted by NBC Shooter
Can you lay a patch (spin tires) from a dead stop on level, dry asphalt without torque-braking? If you can, how long of a patch? Thanks.

I'll get the tape measure out this weekend and let you know (if it doesn't rain)....

[BillyGman]

w/these cars......just keep in mind that the tires that the Marauder comes w/are obviously NOT made w/soft compound rubber like for instance many Pirelli tires are. These tires are very hard compound rubber, and you can spin them real good and even smoke them up w/out leaving a lot of rubber on the asphalt. For an example the other day I was stopped on a main road on the way to work waiting for a school bus to drop off some kids, and I noticed a co-worker of mine right behind me. So when the school bus in front of us pulled away I waited for a couple seconds and then power braked it a little bit and really roasted the tires so much that i was still going sideways long after letting off the brake, and well into second gear. I did that because even though I don't have to use the brake to smoke the tires, I wanted to smoke them even better in order to leave my co-worker in his car completely engulfed in a cloud of smoke and a burnt rubber stench! And that I did. He was walking around the work place that day telling people what a mental case I was w/my new car abd that I left him in a cloud that he couldn't even see through. However 4 hours later I passed by that same stretch of road on the way to lunch, and I was surprised at how light the patch of rubber was. So actually measuring the length of a patch of rubber might not always be an accurate indication of what really happened at "the scene of the crime". W/my car having the Stallion converter, and the 4.56's (and the stock exhaust) the tires spin in first gear from a dead punch w/out the use of the brake pedal, and to a point that the car goes a little bit sideways and the engine revs up to 6100 RPM's and then the tires stop spinning shortly after the transmission hits second gear.

[studio460]

Sounds good to me, Billy!!!

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by BillyGman
He was walking around the work place that day telling people what a mental case I was w/my new car...

ROFL!!!

Did he just figure that out NOW?

:lol:

[Marauderer]

Sounds like a good plan, but you should be really sure on this one especially. If you ever do go with the trilogy, you'll have to have tires that are 2' wide and 3' tall to get any traction :) :)

But seriously, you will also need to have your tune redone if you do the gears as well.

I got to take a ride in a stage I car here about a month ago and it felt pretty darn nice. Add to that the stallion, under drive pulleys, kooks headers, cross over kit from Dr. Gas, ported intake, and a couple of other little tidbits and it would make for a car that is plenty fast enough for anyone. But I still bet that (if you haven't already) if you take a ride in a SC car, your heart and your wallet will melt in an instant.

I've kind of battled over this one myself. I have looked at the cost a hundred times, gotten caught up in the SC fever, waited so long I lost it and questioned whether or not to just go NA, and ultimately came back to my original thought; I can buy one kit, pop it on and honestly never have to do a thing again or spend a dime to roast my tires at will or take on anything in the area without being completely embarrassed (cause at least I can make a good showing). So I've held off spending any money on mods, ordered my kit and will have spent 5k total on performance. Then later, if and when I get the itch to do more, I will have my true base to build on after driving it around and determining what will and what will not work with the enormous low end torque produced by the M112.

Either way good luck. I just wanted to say something because I have seen you wanting the Trilogy for so long, I would hate to see you give in at the last moment and later on down the line when things have leveled off, have you second guess your decision. I know I for one have had 50 times in my life where I didn't think I could afford something and went another route, then later things changed and i thought wow, I could have done that afterall, but by then it was too late :)

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
ROFL!!!

Did he just figure that out NOW?

:lol:

LOL.......I dunno, but I guess that I never seize to amaze him......but now he's thinking about buying my Vette, which is faster than my Marauder(it looks like I might have to sell it just to fund the future MODS for my MM).

[sailsmen]

Wow, who is offering an S/C kit ofr $5K? I understand the Triology kit list for $5,995 and is going for installed @$7K.


Well for less than $4K installed you can have an N/A car that does 13.85!:) :) :) :) :)

[Marauderer]

I guess I got in on the early pricing and didn't realize it was at 5995.00 now. It all depends on what you ultimately want to do and how much you want to spend before you hit the brick wall and have to backup and take another stab at it to make it faster. But damnnnn, Hi 13's is good in anyones book!

[studio460]

$5,995??? When did THAT happen? It WAS $4,995. Then Jerry said after the first installs it was going up to $5,500. Now it's $6K?

Well, Marauderer . . . I appreciate your counsel here. It is a tough decision and I do find myself going back and forth on this issue. My main problem is that I just don't trust the build quality on my engine. I just KNOW I'm going to bust a valve spring or SOMETHING and of course Ford won't cover ANYTHING on the engine once I put the blower on. That's my primary stumbling block on this decision. So many small things haven't been right with my Maruader, I was almost ready to drive it through the dealer's showroom window the other day--I DREAD the day the engine throws a piston or something after I decide on the Trilogy solution. BUT . . .

This afternoon, I was in the right lane at a light. The lane had parked cars in it across the intersection about 200 feet ahead. The light turned green. I stepped on the throttle about 80%. The Honda Accord to my immediate left stepped on his throttle too. I was only able to just keep up with his rear bumper. The parked cars were getting closer. I had to decellerate and sheepishly merge into the lane BEHIND the Honda Accord. SO OF COURSE, I'M RETHINKING TRILOGY AGAIN NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

[BillyGman]

if that happened to me I'd be so ticked off that I'd probably be ready to take out a loan if I had to in order to make the car faster, so in a way I can relate. I'm not going to even attempt to state that other N/A mods will make your car as fast as a S/Cer would. but I completely understand and share your concerns about durability issues. But that isn't to pick on the whole idea of S/Cing either. let's face it, the more HP you add, the harder it's going to be on the motor. There is the bottom end durability issue though. I'm not going to tell you NOT to opt for a S/Cer, but i will say that you should keep in mind that this incident w/that Honda would've turned out different if you already had the 4.30 gears, and the Stallion torque converter installed.;). And that's about $1500 including labor. And the dealer that I brought my car to doesn't have a problem w/those mods, and the service manager has told me that he will still honor my warantee. But w/a S/Cer installed no way. So ofcourse it's all about trade-offs. there are pros, and cons for both schools of thought.(perhaps I'm not helping your difficult decision. Am I?).

[studio460]

Thanks, Billy. I appreciate your thoughts. Well, as you can see, I've flip-flopped again, as you can tell from my updated sig . . . And yes, you ARE making this harder! But, thanks! And so is Marauderer! But I know you're both just trying to make sure I make the right choice for ME! Well, that Honda Accord incident is really grinding away at me . . . so much so, that I just had to call Jerry Barnes this morning and get talked into the Trilogy solution all over again--THAT took about 60 seconds!

[BillyGman]

LOL............only us MM owners will understand what you're going through.:D

[studio460]

Oh, and if anyone else is wondering why I put "01.2004" as the date in my sig for the Trilogy installation, I need to wait for two things to happen (I just spoke with Jerry Barnes on the phone this morning about this):

1. I need to wait for Trilogy's CARB certification to happen. Jerry said that they will complete that, "by the end of the year."

2. I need to wait for Jerry and Lidio to make their trip out to Los Angeles later this year when they come out to scout for a Los Angeles-area Trilogy-authorized installation facility (SVT dealer or independent tuner shop).

[Beadhead]

NBC: for what it's worth, I went with the G-Man's solution for the very reasons he states. Is my MM as quick as a SC'd MM? Hell no, but I sure don't sweat Hondas.

[BillyGman]

those MODS, especially the Stallion Torque converter are great, uh? The Stallion T/C took away the hard shifts that the comp chip gave the car,which I'm told is due to the higher stall speed. But who cares, because the car is faster all around w/this converter. So I didn't mind giving up the hard shifts for faster acceleration, and more power all around. All other things being equal, if you still had the stock converter, and I raced you w/my MM, you would only be seeing my car's tail lights.;)

[darebren]

Darn, I sould not have read these posts.

Suddenly I'm $600 poorer!

[BillyGman]

well then you're getting a great deal, cuz it's $800 for the Stallion converter directly from the manufacture...........go for it.

[HookedOnCV]

BillyGman, you mentioned that your shifts are not as firm with the new t/c installed? I am experiencing the same problem on my car.

I had a DR chip installed along with cooler t-stat and plugs, and upgraded to the Marauder airbox and MAF and had fantastic firm shifts. Then I installed an Eaton M90s s/c kit for the Crown Vic and had a substantial increase in HP and TQ along with a change in my HP/TQ curves. My new setup was dynotuned by FordChip (Jerry W) and I am sure that he did everything he could to tune my car the best that it could be, including raising the trans pressure prior to the shifts (which helps firm them up). The car runs great, but my firm shifts are gone.

Heres my thought on this (and I believe it would apply to the Marauder's as well - same transmission in MY2003). With the increased torque, I am maxing out the flow rate through some of the orfices in the transmission. I am thinking about doing the J-Mod per Jerry W's write up on the TCCOA site. I am planning on this soon since I want to change out the trans fluid to Amsoil synthetic. I don't believe there is more than $100 in parts and drilling some larger holes in the proper places.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[BillyGman]

LOL, I can see that you're a HP fanatic like most of us on here are. Within our group here ofcourse many of us have slightly different approaches to increased HP. For me, it really isn't any "problem" that I've lost those firm shifts. Like I said, let other guys have the hard shifts. I'll keep the better acceleration and increased power that the Stallion Torque converter puts to the transmission, and ultimately the rear wheels. So it really doesn't bother me. It's probably a great idea to perform that Transmission MOD that you're refering to for durability issues, but I wouldn't be willing to rip the Transmission out merely to gain back the firm shifts. That's a lot of work just for the shifts. But that isn't to say that you'll be wrong to do that. it's just a matter of preference I guess. As far as I know, the lack of firm shifting is only due to the higher stall speed, and isn't unique to the Stallion Torque converter. So it isn't that there's a problem w/this converter in particular.

[martyo]

^^^What Billy said. The loss of firm shifts is directly related to the T/C swap. PI tells you this will happen in all their literature. I wouldn't worry it though -- the T/C is good for a proven half-second advantage on the strip. Trust me, I know. (Flame on Todd, but I will still smoke your azz).

One point of disagreement with what Billy said is that there are significant changes to the tranny that can be made with it still installed in the car. I do not believe, however, that you can do the forced lube mod recommended by Dennis Reinhart (and Jerry W.), without R&R'ing the tranny. Maybe someone who has done the forced lube mod (is there anyone, yet?) can chime in on this issue.

[BillyGman]

so people who haven't opted for this converter yet won't get confused........even though your Transmission won't hit the shifts themselves as hard, the acceleration you'll feel between the shifts is harder w/this converter installed. For instance, my car doesn't hit second gear as hard as it used to w/Dennis's chip installed, but at full throttle I feel it pulling harder immediately after the shift than it did before the converter change. So again, let me say that you can keep your hard shifts. I'll take the better acceleration any day.;)

[martyo]

Originally posted by BillyGman
I'll take the better acceleration any day.;)

That's what I'm talkin' about!!

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by HookedOnCV
BillyGman, you mentioned that your shifts are not as firm with the new t/c installed? I am experiencing the same problem on my car. The car runs great, but my firm shifts are gone. Heres my thought on this. With the increased torque, I am maxing out the flow rate through some of the orfices in the transmission. I am thinking about doing the J-Mod per Jerry W's write up on the TCCOA site. I want to change out the trans fluid to Amsoil synthetic. I don't believe there is more than $100 in parts and drilling some larger holes in the proper places. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

You're almost on the right track here, Hooked. Doing the valve body changes suggested by Jerry W. will restore your feelings of a firm shift, but more importantly, the shifts will be more efficient.

When you complete this mod, you will need a retune to your chip, to release the computer control of the tranny. The shifts will occur as they are set in the valve body, and the PCM/EEC should be restored to stock OEM values. BTW, you cannot use any trans fluid other than the OEM "Merkon V" in a Stallion TC.

[Marauderer]

The hardest thing about the Jerry mod is that everyone talks about doing it, but no one seems to have really "Done it" on a late model tranny that can share their experience with us (which holes, which sizes, any variations from documentation, etc) What we really need is some first hand info and an updated step by step which isn't for a 1994 Thunderbird SC :) I have asked on three different Panther platform boards, emailed Jerry, PM'd Reinhart, and can't seem to get any responses. At least Dennis did post something a little while ago about coming out with something almost immediately, but I haven't heard anymore about it since then. Maybe he will make it easy for us in the near future and sell the properly drilled separator plate since he is in tight with Jerry.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Marauderer
The hardest thing about the Jerry mod is that everyone talks about doing it, but no one seems to have really "Done it" on a late model tranny that can share their experience with us (which holes, which sizes, any variations from documentation, etc) What we really need is some first hand info and an updated step by step which isn't for a 1994 Thunderbird SC :) I have asked on three different Panther platform boards, emailed Jerry, PM'd Reinhart, and can't seem to get any responses. At least Dennis did post something a little while ago about coming out with something almost immediately, but I haven't heard anymore about it since then. Maybe he will make it easy for us in the near future and sell the properly drilled separator plate since he is in tight with Jerry.

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/transmission/page1.shtml

This is it, Marauderer, it's all right here. If you feel these proceedures exhaust your talents (as many do), then get together with a tranny dude from your area and ask him to follow these instructions. They are not T-Bird specific, nor old news. They ARE 4R70W correct, and they work!

I didn't do my tranny mods myself, but I stood by and watched it done. The valve body mods described can be done with the tranny inside the car, with the right tools and equipment, i.e. tranny dude's shop.

I'm not speaking for Jerry W., but it's my firm belief that his tranny days have long passed and he's moved on to other things now. With these mods being so simple and available to us (instructions are free!), I can't see how or why Jerry W., or Dennis Reinhart would spend much time on marketing this mod to us. Valve body swap-outs (trading cores) would be too much of a management headache for them, and there just isn't any money in it...IMHO.

[Marauderer]

Sarge,

I'm well aware of these docs and their various accompaniments, thus the obvious questions any normal person would ask when seeing the dates and examples that are involved; 1995, 1996 - can you say slightly dated seeing it is the year 2003 :). I've just had a few simple questions that I was hoping someone could answer before I open her up and find out that something is different and have to put her back together again without any work being done. Has anyone done this on one of our transmissions, was there any deviation from the docs, were any of the hole sizes different than mentioned or that have been updated lately, etc. Can you share your experience with us?

Hearing just one, I did it and followed it word for word would be enough for me to open mine up this weekend. In fact, your comment that you had a tranny shop follow these docs is the first I have actually heard of anyone "getting it done" on a late model tranny..

I don't personally need a step by step other than what is listed already (that and confirmation that someone has actually done it), but it just amazes me that if I decide to take pictures when I do mine that I would be the first to do so on a Marauder with as many members as we have here?

BTW - You'll have to talk to Dennis about that last one as he is the one that mentioned an update for our trans (although he didn't really specify what it was exactly). However, I think most people here would be more interested in buying a predrilled separator plate from him and do a quick swap rather than take their own out, screw it up and not be able to find one in town for 2 weeks. It is my understanding that Jerry used to provide this service and I was curious if he is passing it on to Dennis now that he has hit the big time with his SCT software. I wouldn't presume to publicly debate whether or not it is a worthwhile endeavor for Dennis so I won't go there, but there is nothing wrong with asking if it is something he will offer.

Sorry guys, didn't mean to hijack this thread on a tangent.