No, this is not another oil thread...

[RF Overlord]

Well, OK, maybe it is, but I just found this and thought others may be interested.

This has been lifted directly from the Mobil 1 web site...here's the link (http://www.mobil1.com/care/advanced/ask/archive.jsp#date132) to the relevant page. Please note that I have not changed one word, only added the bold emphasis to the parts I want to highlight...

*DISCLAIMER*: This post is not meant to promote Mobil 1 over other full-synthetic motor oils. It is provided for viscosity information purposes only.

01/27/2003
Q: "Does the new Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ oil meet Ford's WSS-MSC-153-G specification? The old Tri-Synthetic™ series stated that it did in the text of the product data sheet, but the new Mobil 1 data sheet makes no mention of it, or of meeting any Ford requirement for that matter. My two Ford vehicles call for 153-H & 153-E oil. Thanks"
-- Chuck Knapp, Fort Smith, AR

A: There are two current Ford specifications for service-fill motor oil: ESE-M2C-153H and ESE-M2C-153G.

Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ 0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30 meet the specification for ESE-M2C-153G.

Ford's most recent specification, ESE-M2C-153H, is a service-fill specification for 5W-20 viscosity motor oil. Mobil 1 is not available in a 5W-20 viscosity grade. If you would like a product that has been approved by Ford under the ESE-M2C-153H specification, Mobil Drive Clean Oil 5W-20 is approved. It is important to follow your owner's manual recommendations in order to maintain coverage under your new-vehicle warranty. It is our understanding that the recommendation to use 5W-20 is driven by concerns for fuel economy.

If you wish to use a Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ synthetic lubricant for applications where a 5W-20 is recommended (Ford, Honda, Acura), ExxonMobil® recommends the use of Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ 5W-30 or 0W-30. While Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ 5W-30 and 0W-30 are fuel economy approved viscosity grades, and will provide excellent engine protection, they might not provide the same fuel economy as the 5W-20 viscosity grade.

[merc406]

Cover all the bases and just use 0w-30 like I do.

[jgc61sr2002]

Bob - Thanks. Do you think Mobil will produce a 5 W 20 Synthetic oil in the near future?

[1 BAD 03 MM]

Just use AMSOIL Series 2000 0W30.

[TAF]

blah, blah, blah Mobil 1 blah, blah, blah Mobil 1 blah, blah, blah Mobil 1 blah, blah, blah Mobil 1 blah, blah, blah Mobil 1 blah, blah, blah Mobil 1

I TOLD you guys to go with 5 W 30 Royal Purple...

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by jgc61sr2002
Do you think Mobil will produce a 5 W 20 Synthetic oil in the near future?

I would guess probably not, since they already have a 0W-20, a 0W-30 and a 5W-30...if you're concerned about the "30" part, then 0W-20 would provide the same high-temperature viscosity as the factory-fill oil, with superior low-temperature flow characteristics...

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by TAF
blah, blah, blah Mobil 1 blah,

Todd:

My purpose here was to present additional corroborating evidence, as opposed to unsubstantiated opinion, that 5W-20 is recommended for fuel economy reasons, not because it's the best oil for the motor...

It was not my intention to promote Mobil 1, and I apologise to the board for not making that clear up front. There are certainly other high-quality full-synthetic products out there, but some are not available in 5W-20...I was simply trying to present evidence, for those who may be sitting on the fence, that using a viscosity OTHER than 5W-20 is not necessarily sacrilege...

[SergntMac]

I think engine oil is the last topic where we'll see anyone fence sitting.

[67435animal]

KISS. I use what Ford says to use.

Bob

[TripleTransAm]

As an engineer, I truly appreciate having as much info as I can about any topic, especially one as controversial as recommended oil fill. Trust me, we are NO different in reactions to this kind of subject than members of other clubs and boards... if anything, we are MUCH MUCH MUCH more laid back about it (which is good, and keeps emotions out of the picture).

There have been many instances where I've held an opinion on a subject only to find myself swayed 180 degrees through presentation of good facts supporting the opposite view. That's good... that's all part of my growth as a human being (and the one kind of growth not directly associated with my calorie intake!). Tests change, technology improves, owners get smarter and less likely to take only one view as the word of God. It's all about putting forth the tools necessary to make a good informed decision, not a blind one.

I have a particular personal preference in oil fill. No one in my service department has shot it down, some even prefer it, some members here also share that preference, and I know there are other fills that will do just as great a job, maybe even better. Someday I may change my preference based on new data, and until that day I eagerly look forward to any new bit of data I can be presented with.

[TAF]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
Todd:

My purpose here was to present additional corroborating evidence, as opposed to unsubstantiated opinion, that 5W-20 is recommended for fuel economy reasons, not because it's the best oil for the motor...

It was not my intention to promote Mobil 1, and I apologise to the board for not making that clear up front. There are certainly other high-quality full-synthetic products out there, but some are not available in 5W-20...I was simply trying to present evidence, for those who may be sitting on the fence, that using a viscosity OTHER than 5W-20 is not necessarily sacrilege...

I was just kidding RF...don't get all upset.

Royal Purple is made by the Georgia Western Co. in Kennesaw, GA (just north of Atlanta). I don't know anyone there, but I do know a 10 sec. Linc. Mark VII that uses it and about 10 Marauders.

3 things Southern Boys know...
How to put a car on blocks in the front yard
A good huntin dog
and
Motor Oil

[joflewbyu2]

i work at an Acura dealership. in 03 the rsx auto was rated at 24 city - 33 highway and used 5w-30. in 04 the rsx is rated 25 city, 34 highway and uses 5w-20. the better mpg is from the less friction of the lighter oil. nothing else was changed. here in sunny south florida, i rest assured with the 5w-30 mobil 1 and still get 19 mpg consistently.

[RCSignals]

Actually, if the 5W20 is giving better fuel economy, it would indicate there is less friction in the engine using it.
If it were offering lower lubricity than 5W30, there would be more friction, and heat, in the engine, and increased fuel usage.

[gonzo50]

Originally posted by RCSignals
Actually, if the 5W20 is giving better fuel economy, it would indicate there is less friction in the engine using it.
If it were offering lower lubricity than 5W30, there would be more friction, and heat, in the engine, and increased fuel usage.
That definitely sounds logical....:D

[Zack]

Its been almost a year and a half now since the car and oil question has been conceived.
In that time, no one has lost an engine due to oil.
No engine has displayed signs of aging or malfunction due to oil.
Everyone on this site gets no less than 18mpg even with a supercharger.
Oil is Oil
I said it once and Ill say it again:
No one ever bothers to put the right oil in their lawnmower and your lawnmower's engine has never locked up or smoked.
Case closed.

[Marauder57]

Originally posted by Zack

I said it once and Ill say it again:
No one ever bothers to put the right oil in their lawnmower and your lawnmower's engine has never locked up or smoked.
Case closed.

While I would agree with you for the most part.....I don't know anyone who has paid $35,000 for a Lawnmower....so I can see the concern about oil.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by gonzo50
That definitely sounds logical....:D

Yes, it DOES sound logical, but I think there's more to it than that...5W-20 may give very slightly increased economy and slightly lower friction IN A BRAND NEW ENGINE, but my question is what happens inside that motor when the oil gets older (i.e. 2-3 thousand miles) and the viscosity index improver additive package is getting used up...does the 20-weight oil hold up well enough? Also, what happens when the motor gets 60 or 70 thousand miles on it and clearances open up a bit...is the 20-weight oil going to be able to maintain a proper film strength?

as posted by Marauder57:
I don't know anyone who has paid $35,000 for a Lawnmower...

ROFL! Good point...

[RCSignals]

your lawnmower's engine has never locked up or smoked.

Are you sure? :D

[RCSignals]

is the 20-weight oil going to be able to maintain a proper film strength?

Change your oil at recommended intervals or more often, yes.

especially with synthetic blends and full synthetics

[Zack]

Ok, it smoked if you own a LawnBoy!!

[Marauder57]

Well I will be moving to into our first house soon....and I will be sure to consult Zack on my Lawnmower purchase....I may be the only guy with a John Deere with a Vortech Supercharger and a badgeless grill..... :D

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Zack
No one ever bothers to put the right oil in their lawnmower and your lawnmower's engine has never locked up or smoked.


Which reminds me... I gotta have this annoying ticking in my lawnmower engine looked at. ;) It sometimes blows smoke at startup, too...

:lol:

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RCSignals
If it were offering lower lubricity than 5W30, there would be more friction, and heat, in the engine, and increased fuel usage.


How about pumping losses on the thicker oil, having to get pumped through small passages not to mention the oil pump, filter, and the screen/pickup itself? That would justify the better economy on the 20 weight over the 30 weight (and jive with why it's a bad idea to go with something like 50 weight in newer motors).

Also, you mention lubricity... is there a link between lubricity and viscosity at a given temperature? Would the thinner oil not be as slippery as a thicker oil at a given temperature, the only difference being its behavior under pressure?

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by SergntMac
I think engine oil is the last topic where we'll see anyone fence sitting.

See? Was I wrong?

I told ya...

I'm busy turning all my clocks back 1 hour, because I live in a "spring ahead, fall back" neighborhood.

Therefore, I get an extra hour to read all these threads, and post my wisecracks where I want.

One whole hour, starting at 2:00 AM my time...Get your stuff in now, or, be late tomorrow...

Just my .02c...

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
How about pumping losses on the thicker oil, having to get pumped through small passages not to mention the oil pump, filter, and the screen/pickup itself? That would justify the better economy on the 20 weight over the 30 weight (and jive with why it's a bad idea to go with something like 50 weight in newer motors).

agreed



Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Also, you mention lubricity... is there a link between lubricity and viscosity at a given temperature? Would the thinner oil not be as slippery as a thicker oil at a given temperature, the only difference being its behavior under pressure?

Well, I've always understood lubricity as being the ability to lubricate, maintain lubrication over time and with varying temperature resisting effects of friction.

As far as viscosity goes, I think you are right, thinner oil should be as slippery as a thicker oil at a given temperature, the only difference being its behavior under pressure. (ability to flow)


So basically, I think there is likely more to the specification of 5W-20 oil for our engines, than just fuel efficiency.

I don't want to influence anyone's choice of oil though :)

[studio460]

RF, THANKS! Great post from ExxonMobil! I searched their site when I first got my Maruader, and your recent post has revealed the only corroboration I have seen for the CAFE argument for Ford's recommended factory-fill 5W-20. I became fully confident in my choice to use Mobil 1 5W-30 from my first oil change after reading your post. That is, UNTIL I read RC's posts . . .

RC, EXCELLENT POINTS! RC, you make perfectly logical arguments in your posts that puts me BACK on the fence!

Nevertheless, I am, and probably will continue to use the full synthetic Mobil 1 product for the life of my car's engine. Thanks guys, for the informative and thoughtful posts.

[merc406]

Turns out this is just another oil thread, and like all the others it ends up going in circle's. Just use and change your favorite oil regularly and you'll have no oiling problems.

[RF Overlord]

Ah, but at least in THIS thread, RC and TooManyTransAms got to trade lots of scientific mumbo-jumbo before it spiralled out of control...

J/K :lol:

merc406...you are probably closest to the truth...

[MitchB]

Ford struggled to get the MM's fuel mileage to the point where the car would not be penalized as a gas guzzler. That is why they spec 5W-20. That is why the factory shift points are so low and the trans goes into lockup by 30 mph. Do any of you think it is not a good idea to reprogram the trans calibrations? For this same reason, running a 0 or 5W-30 oil is not a bad idea. Thinner oils have less film strength. Viscosity is simply a measure of an oil's ability to flow. You need both. There is nothing revolutionary about this engine that requires lower weight oils. Are you more interested in fuel economy or engine longevity? Ford made the choice for you on the factory fill. After that, it is up to you.

Mitch

[joflewbyu2]

July 31, 2001 CCD-01-12 (LDV/ LDT/ SVM/ ICI/ LIMO)
Dear Manufacturer:
Subject: Use of GF-3 Engine Oil in Test Vehicles.
This letter provides guidance regarding the use of GF-3 oils of all viscosity grades in emissions
certification and fuel economy test vehicles. EPA previously issued guidance for 5W20 GF-3 oil
usage in my June 26, 2000 letter (number CCD-00-06). The guidance in that letter will continue to
be effective through the 2002 model year. However, starting with the 2003 model year, this letter
will supercede the guidance for 5W20 GF-3 oils presented in that letter.
Background
EPA shares with manufacturers the objective of improving the fuel economy and emission
performance of their products. It is of critical importance to EPA, however, that this improved
performance, as measured by pre-production test vehicles for fuel economy and emission compliance
demonstration, carry over to improved performance in the field. Therefore, prior to using GF-3 oils
in test vehicles, manufacturers should make all reasonable efforts to ensure that these oils will be
used in the field. This letter lays out a process which manufacturers can use to assure EPA that GF-3
oils will be used in the field.
Approval criteria for using GF-3 oils in test vehicles.
EPA will approve the use of a GF-3 oil in test vehicles if the following conditions are satisfied:
1. Owner’s Manual Language. The manufacturer provides clear and unambiguous instructions in
the Owner’s Manual which identifying GF-3 non-synthetic engine oil of a specific viscosity grade
(e.g., 5W20, 5W30, 10W30) as the engine oil to be used under ambient temperature conditions likely
to be experienced during normal vehicle operation. It is appropriate for a manufacturer to specify the
use of a lower viscosity engine oil in extremely low ambient temperatures where the normally
specified oil may not flow adequately.
2. Labeling the Oil Filler Cap. The manufacturer clearly indicates on the engine oil filler cap, by
label or other permanently attached means, that GF-3 oil of a specific viscosity grade (e.g. GF-3
5W20) is to be used in the engine.
3. Limits on the Sum of 16-hour plus 96-hour Fuel Economy Improvement Factors. The engine oil
to be used in emissions and fuel economy test vehicles must have a combined fuel economy

[joflewbyu2]

-2-
improvement factor (using the ASTM Sequence VI-B (or its replacement procedure)) which does
not exceed the following limits:
GF-3 5W20 4.2%
GF-3 5W30 3.4%
GF-3 10W30 2.0%
The limits were calculated as the sum of the 16-hour and 96-hour limits plus 0.5 percent. The 0.5
percent was represented by the Alliance as covering about two standard deviations of the distribution
of fuel economy improvement rates measured by the ASTM procedures. EPA is setting these limits
because it is inappropriate for a manufacturer to select a significantly better oil for fuel economy
testing than the typical customer will be using in their vehicles.
4. Factory Fill Oil Requirements. The manufacturer uses GF-3 oil of the same viscosity rating as
factory fill in production vehicles. Furthermore, the fuel economy performance of the oils used as
factory fill must be equivalent or superior to the oils used in emission and fuel economy test vehicles.
5. Oils Available at Dealerships. The manufacturer supplies its dealers with GF-3 oils of the same
viscosity grade as used in the test vehicles or otherwise assures the use of the appropriate viscosity
grade GF-3 engine oil at dealerships. Furthermore, the fuel economy performance of the oils
supplied to dealers must be equivalent or superior to the oils used in emission and fuel economy test
vehicles.
6. Commitments from Oil Manufacturers to Market Appropriate Oils. Prior to the start of vehicle
production, the vehicle manufacturer obtains commitments from manufacturers of engine oils that
they will manufacture GF-3 engine oil of the specified viscosity grade in sufficient quantity to meet
demand, market those oils through all of their marketing outlets, and promote the use of the specified
oil at “quick oil change” facilities. The vehicle manufacturer shall retain this information on file for
three years and shall provide EPA with copies of this information upon request.
Additional Requirements Specific to the Use of 5W20 GF-3 Oils
In addition to the six criteria listed above, manufacturers using 5W20 GF-3 oils in test vehicles must
agree do to the following:
1. Instructions to“Quick Change” Facilities and the Manufacturer’s Dealers to use 5W20 GF-3 Oils.
The manufacturer commits to do the following shortly after the start of the applicable model year:
a. Acquire from oil manufacturers and supply to EPA copies of materials that they supplied
to "quick oil change" facilities pertaining to the use of 5W20 GF-3 engine oil.
b. Provide EPA with copies of materials that the manufacturer sent to its dealers pertaining
to the use of 5W20 GF-3 engine oil in customer vehicles.

[joflewbyu2]

-3-
2. Follow-up Survey of 5W20 Oil Usage. The manufacturer commits to perform the following
either approximately two years after the use of 5W20 engine oil is approved by EPA, or immediately
prior to applying for 2004 model year certification:
a. Acquire from oil manufacturers and provide to EPA sales data of 5W20 and at least the
two highest-selling oils by viscosity grade (other than 5W20), promotional information
applicable to the use of 5W20 engine oil, and follow up letters of commitment for the
continued promotion of 5W20 engine oil; and
b. Acquire from oil manufacturers and provide to EPA the fuel efficiency data of their 5W20
and the highest-selling oils identified in a. above, relative to the reference oil as specified
in ASTM Sequence VI-B (or its replacement procedure). This information may be collected
and reported to EPA in conjunction with other vehicle manufacturers; and
c. Acquire and provide to EPA data on the retail prices of 5W20 and the highest selling oils
identified in a. above. Prices of non-synthetic, partial synthetic and synthetic oils are to be
included. This information may be collected and reported to EPA in conjunction with other
vehicle manufacturers.
This information will be used by EPA to determine whether approval of the use of 5W20 engine oil
should be extended beyond the 2003 model year.
If you have any questions, please contact Mr. Eldert Bontekoe at (734) 214-4442.
Sincerely,
Gregory A. Green, Director
Certification and Compliance Division
Office of Transportation and Air Quality

[merc406]

I'm ADD.......I can't read long post's like that.

[RF Overlord]

I think what Mr. Flewbyyou is trying to say is that the use of 5W-20 oil is motivated primarily by EPA fuel economy (CAFE) requirements...

[WolfeBros]

hmmmmm........sure seemed like another oil thread. :alone:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[joflewbyu2]

Basically, it is a letter to the manufacturer that states that they must have a sufficient quanity of 5w-20 oil in stock if they recommend it, put 5w-20 on their oil caps, the oil must meet the epa's standards as well as improve mpg over 5w-30.

[SergntMac]

Okay, I just gotta ask this now...

Can anyone tell me exactly what synthetics exist in synthetic oil? Any red dye #7? Soy?

[RF Overlord]

I'm sure when metroplex sees this, he can tell you exactly...he has a wealth of information on synthetic and conventional oils...

[TAF]

You know, they say..."Put a bunch of guys in a room...and the topic will eventually turn to sex."

Around here...it ALWAYS comes back to oil.

Motor oil that is....black-gold....Texas tea.....:D

[martyo]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Soy?

Well, technically Soy isn't synthetic.....


:flamer:

[Paul T. Casey]

I remember in the 70's, we used the kind with the coolest decals. Now, OMG you gotta be as smart as TTA.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by TAF
You know, they say..."Put a bunch of guys in a room...and the topic will eventually turn to sex."

Around here...it ALWAYS comes back to oil.


Yeah, well... oil / sex ... I can see the link between the two. :P

(I wonder if KY comes in 10W30?)

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Any red dye #7?

isn't that a cause of hyperactivity?