Spotted a new GTO 10/25/03

[chapel1]

Saw a silver GTO today.It had twin dual exhausts that had a metal wrap around them to make them larger and where the two pipes exhaust at they had a piece of metal filler to join the two holes together making the two exhaust flush with each other.Man I know this sounds confusing.
But the exhaust look small and ugly.All the metal seems as if they are tring to make the exhaust look larger than they are?
the GTO logo is small and Pontiac is imprinted into the bumper.It doesn't look very special at all.

[RCSignals]

Pontiac is imprinted on the bumper, and not GTO? odd

[TripleTransAm]

Sounds like they are trying the same thing with the exhaust that they did for the new Grand Prix. You're sure you did see a GTO, and not a Grand Prix GTP? The exhaust thing sounds odd considering that all accounts in enthusiast magazines have specifically dealt with the opinion that the new GTO's exhaust note is reminiscent if not better than the original GTOs. I can't see that happening with small weenie tips.

It might even have been a result of some unscrupulous dealer trying to cash in on the new GTO craze by badge-engineering a dealer-installed GTO appearance package. Up here, we have had a ton of Sunfire GTOs running around for years, since GM of Canada saw fit to splash that name on the Sunfire lineup. *shudder*

About the 'Pontiac' on the bumper, it's common Pontiac practice, from the Fiero to the Firebird.
http://www.tripletransam.com/ws6-old/98_rear_side1.jpg

[RCSignals]

Yes, about Pontiac on the Bumpers. I just kind of thought with this car, "GTO" on the bumper would have been more appropriate.

I'm glad our bumper does not just say "Mercury"

[chapel1]

The car I saw looked different from any Pontiac I have ever seen.It had a huge rear fin/spoiler on it that was way ugly.
I drove behind it and noticed the GTO emblem on the passenger side of the trunk.I kindof thought like Triple TransAm is this some kindof morphidite Pontiac?
I just stared at this car trying to recognize what else it could be,but couldn't come up with anything but what it claims to be.
If what I saw is a GTO their going to have a hard time selling them IMHO.

[TripleTransAm]

Go to Pontiac.com, click on the lower left of the web page in the 2004 GTO "click here for more", under vehicle lineup. A separate window will pop up with some Shockwave Flash presentation... you can click on "skip" to bypass the whole mess. You are then presented with a full web section on the GTO... click on Exterior Design and you will immediately be presented with a rear shot of the car. Visible is a GTO chrome emblem on the driver's side and the Pontiac crest on the trunk lid, but no huge fin and no Pontiac embossed into the bumper. The exhaust tips are definitely NOT the siamesed outlets found on the Grand Prix, they are 2 individual pipes side by side.

Maybe they've restyled the car since the photo was taken, but I still think you saw a riced-out new Grand Prix.

[tomd]

Every 2004 GTO comes equipped with a specially-tuned LS1 V-8 engine generating 350 horsepower and 365 ft-lb of torque, moving the rear-wheel drive vehicle from zero-to-60 mph in the mid-five-second range. Four-channel anti-lock brakes, traction control, a limited slip differential and a fully independent rear suspension are all part of the standard package.

Transmission choices: 4-speed automatic transmission and close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission

Drivetrain: Rear-wheel drive (55/45 front/rear weight distribution)

Axle ratio: 3.46:1 (limited slip)

Exhaust: dual with chrome tips

Brakes: Front/rear disc with Bosch 4-channel ABS system

Steering: Power-assisted variable-ratio rack-and-pinion

Stabilizer bars: Front 28 mm and rear 16 mm direct-acting

Spoiler: Rear, aerodynamic

Suspension: Front Independent MacPherson struts and progressive rate springs. Rear: Semi-trailing control-link with gas pressure dampers

Traction Control System: Bosch using combination of throttle, spark, and fuel control

Tires: P225/50-R17 W-rated

Wheels: 17-inch, five-spoke satin-silver painted alloy wheels

I want one!

[jgc61sr2002]

chapel1 - Triple TA is correct Pontiac is not embossed on the rear bumper. There is a GTO emblem on the left side of the trunk lid, a GTO 5.7 liter emblem on the front fenders and GTO emblem on left side of front grill. Comes in seven exterior colors.

[gonzo50]

On that Pontiac web site, in the photo gallery, under-carriage section, the exhaust system looks real neat and pretty and it looks like it has some type of coating on them, like Jet-Hot or Ceramic, wish the exhaust on the Marauder looked as good but it is effective, so there ! :pimp:

[RF Overlord]

I agree; chapel1, I don't think you saw a real 2004 GTO...the real ones have both exhaust tips on the driver's side of the car...kinda odd in America, but very common in Australia, where the car is built...

[chapel1]

It must have been a badged out Gran Prix,the bumper and mufflers matched what I saw.It also had red calipers.
The Pontiac site had the sounds the engine will make,what I saw didn't make anything that sounded like that.I got fooled,thanks for the heads up on the Pontiac site.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by tomd
I want one!


Yeah, with stats like that, who can say no...

I gotta be honest, if GM had gotten that thing on the Canadian market before I spotted the big Mercury, the Marauder would have just been another pretty face around here. I mean, the LS1 has been a VERY good engine for me, both in durability and economy, not to mention power. And now for the new GTO, they've actually paid very close attention to addressing enhancements in low low end torque AND the old-fashioned exhaust note.

(rumor has it that each exhaust path was tuned to make it's own special sound, hence the combination of the two makes for an overall muscular sound reminiscent of the old 60s blocks).

But... no GTO in Canada, and Mercury/Ford wised up to making the Marauder available in Canada. And the rest was history, for me...

[Donny Carlson]

Did it look like this?

[Donny Carlson]

I was interested in the new GTO for awhile, until I learned it was based on a GM car sold in Australia, the Holden Monaro CV8.
I dig up a picture of that car for comparison.

[Donny Carlson]

Here's shot of the car that the GTO is based on.

[Donny Carlson]

OOps, forgot the photo!:D

[Donny Carlson]

a rear shot

[Donny Carlson]

is different on the GTO, though I'm not sure its a better design.
This first shot is the Australian car, note it's right hand drive.

[Donny Carlson]

Here's the GTO dash. What also turned me off was, even though this was a stout V8 car, it seem small to me. Give me and my big butt a MM seat any day!!

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by Donny Carlson
until I learned it was based on a GM car sold in Australia, the Holden Monaro CV8.

Why is that a problem? The Australians build some VERY sweet cars...just look at Ford Performance Vehicles (http://www.fpv.com.au/) or Holden Special Vehicles (http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vy2/default.htm)

[Donny Carlson]

Nothing against the Austrailian car or their industry, just I feel if your gonna remake an American classic (or more precisely, NORTH American classic in deference to Canadian assembly plants), you should make an effort to build it here, too.

I have no ill will towards cars made overseas, but would prefer one made in NA. I like to support the UAW wheneve possible.

I'm a union officer (not the UAW, though) and have a lot of friends who are in the UAW in various plants.

[RF Overlord]

Donny:

If it's any consolation, the engines are all made here... :D

[jgc61sr2002]

Donny - The GTO is being built in the Holden plant because they are the only GM plant available to build a rear wheel drive vehicle other than trucks. The cost of setting up a plant was prohibitive.

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
I agree; chapel1, I don't think you saw a real 2004 GTO...the real ones have both exhaust tips on the driver's side of the car...kinda odd in America, but very common in Australia, where the car is built...

except from what I've read, the Holden that the GTO is based on, has dual exhaust exiting both sides. They had to change the position of the gas tank on the car to make it meet NA standards, and that left exhaust to exit one side only.

[Michael_S]

From what I understand, GM is going to make another trim of the GTO available next year with 400 horsepower. And supposedly they are at work trying to improve the (boring) styling too.

I'm somewhat impressed with the specs on the GTO but not the looks. If GM manages to bump it to 400 horsepower and make it look more like the original, I'll be drooling like a happy infant.

[RCSignals]

Back in the early stages of all this GTO stuff, a few months after they announced it in 2002. I saw a picture of one of the (i guess concept) GTOs and it had tail lights very much like the Marauder.
Interesting they've changed from that.
Also, I understand the Holden Monaro, and of course the GTO derivative, is based on an older, now defunct Opel platform.
Where are the Automotive writer critics screaming about that like they did about the Panther platform, completely ignoring all of it's updates?

[bigslim]

Go to their site and see some of the pictures. They even have one that has more aggressive trim on it. http://www.clubgto.com/

[TripleTransAm]

SLP has planned a run of GTO "Judges" complete with carousel red (ie. orange) paint scheme, reminiscent of the subdued '69 models ;)

Funniest thing is that GM is now harrassing SLP over the name itself. Seems SLP noticed that GM's trademark on the name had lapsed and bought it up. Now GM is arguing that it still owns the name because of all the history behind it... sore losers indeed... :lol: :lol:

Best thing that could happen to Pontiac would be someone like Steve Babcock. Here's a formula for success... remove one Bob Kraut, replace with Steve Babcock, and see miracles happen...

[tetsu]

I'm not sure why we concern ourselves so much with GTOs.

These things are glorified two door Accords with RWD. If I
wanted a little two door jobby, I'd get a Mustang COBRA.

I can get at least 3 full sized GM salesmen into my MM trunk. You'd need a bungy cord to transport two of them in that GTO trunk. ;)

Johnny

[Michael_S]

Originally posted by tetsu
I'm not sure why we concern ourselves so much with GTOs.

These things are glorified two door Accords with RWD. If I
wanted a little two door jobby, I'd get a Mustang COBRA.

I can get at least 3 full sized GM salesmen into my MM trunk. You'd need a bungy cord to transport two of them in that GTO trunk. ;)

Johnny

Why do you compare it to an Accord? What do they have in common?

[tetsu]

Originally posted by Michael_S
Why do you compare it to an Accord? What do they have in common?

Styling, size, socioeconomic market segment.

My dad just bought a Toyota Solara. It's also very reminiscent of that looks/size wise. Of course, the motor/driveline/suspension
of the GTO is much nicer.

But, like I said, for a two door, why go with anything less than a
Mustang Cobra or an 03 T/A or Camaro SS for the same bucks.

Of course, in this rare historical instance, the FORD is actually the
biggest bang for the buck.

Of course, real men drive Marauders. :)

Johnny

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by Michael_S
Why do you compare it to an Accord? What do they have in common?

I like Johnny's reply, but also, his comparison to the Accord seems more accurate than C+Ds Accord/Marauder comparison was.

As I said elsewhere, i think this new GTO is partly GMs rush to answer all the complaints for ending the Camaro/Firebird line. From what i've read various places I get the impression they thought doing this GTO would be easier and cost them less than it has.

[Michael_S]

Just to play Devil's Advocate...

I can see three big reasons to pick a GTO over a Mustang Cobra. First, the GTO is $3,000 - $4,000 cheaper. Second, the Cobra has been the only V8 RWD coupe on the block for under $40,000 since the Camaro and Trans Am were axed, so the GTO is a change of pace. Third, the Cobra is already supercharged to make its 390 horsepower while the GTO makes 350 horses without any forced induction. Add a supercharger with even relatively mild boost to a GTO, and you're probably in the mid 400s easily. Of course, it's possible that even mild boost will kill your LS1 engine in short order. I don't know. If it works, though, you spent as much as a new Cobra cost for a car that's got a lot more power.

The Camaro and Trans Am were cheaper than the GTO but from what I understand they had poor handling, poor visibility, and very poor reliability. When the line was discontinued, the Camaro SS was by far the most powerful car you could buy new for $30,000 - but people still weren't buying them. There had to be a reason.

[Racerx88]

Originally posted by Michael_S

The Camaro and Trans Am were cheaper than the GTO but from what I understand they had poor handling, poor visibility, and very poor reliability. When the line was discontinued, the Camaro SS was by far the most powerful car you could buy new for $30,000 - but people still weren't buying them. There had to be a reason.
Sorry, but my '00 SS was probably the best handling car I've ever owned. The thing handled like it was on rails, and it was NEVER in the shop Granted, it was kinda hard to see out of, but you get used to it. The reason the people didn't buy towards the end is the same reason the MM's didn't sell at first, NO ADVERTISING. The only reason I traded it on the MM, was I just need more room, and I wanted rear wheel drive. The only American car that fit the bill, and still had some power was the MM.

[TripleTransAm]

Sad part is that the Firebird is rumoured to return as that little itty bitty Solstice thing that Pontiac was rolling around on the car show circuit. 4 cylinder, 2 seats, can you say "Fiero"?

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Michael_S
The Camaro and Trans Am were cheaper than the GTO but from what I understand they had poor handling, poor visibility, and very poor reliability


Methinks Michael_S needs to go for a ride in my '98 WS6.

Cadillac comfy ride (okay, maybe a Caddy with a stiff suspension), but with handling good enough to trash S2000s on a local road course a few years back. Visibility? Yes, the cars were awkward proportions (your butt sits more or less where the axis of turning is located, due to proximity to the rear axle, and the hood can be intimidating to someone less confident behind the wheel). But poor visibility? Not with just a thin little C pillar... heck it's thinner than the Marauder's C pillar, I think.

Poor reliability... from what I've experienced in person and seen on this board, my particular WS6 ranks better in terms of reliability, and I think in general the cars are probably about similar. Especially considering the different types of driving that either car is subjected to.

Nope, can't say you're anywhere close to hitting the mark with your assumptions.

I haven't taken 2-day-long road trips with my MM, but I will say that I drove 2 days down to Chattanooga on business back in May 2001, and upon my arrival I felt fresh enough to hop right back in the car and head home if need be (this is an exact memory... I clearly recall thinking "oh well, trip's over... damn..."). Judging by the way I felt after the long drive to Hershey, the MM is close in terms of this kind of driver comfort, but not quite there (seats aren't supportive enough, and are too hard in the wrong places).

GM had to kill these cars. Speak to anyone with inside connections and this will be confirmed. Regulations were on the way that would have forced a restyle, and the folks at GM's helm were just not interested in investing long term in this area, focusing instead on trucks. They were not interested in selling them previously, either... if you ever drove any of the small compact automatics, you'll see that they were NOT able to offset the CAFE fuel economy hit from the big V8s.

[Haggis]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Sad part is that the Firebird is rumoured to return as that little itty bitty Solstice thing that Pontiac was rolling around on the car show circuit. 4 cylinder, 2 seats, can you say "Fiero"?

Tell me it aint so Steve. http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/q/bawling.gif[Automated by GetSmile] http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/q/crying.gif http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/q/depresse.gif
As to reliablity in my '98 Ram Air I had to have my transmission replaced twice, lucky both times under warranty. And visibility out the rear did suck, especially to the sides. But, that car could launch with the best of them. One time I was street racing a Camaro SS and I turned sideway 45* and still beat him. I do miss it from time to time, traded it in for the Marauder, but don't regret it at all.

[Michael_S]

I sit corrected with regards to the Camaro and Trans Am.

[GodOSpeed]

The GTO sure is a sweet ride compaired to its Austrailian counterpart. But Boys I don't think that the General sicked this dog on us. If he did he left out the key ingreadiant = 4 doors. Be practical none of us motorheads would be in a 4 door if it wasn't a necesity.

[Racerx88]

Not necessarily. If I could've gotten a 4 dr. Camaro SS back in 2000, I'd still be driving it!

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by Michael_S
Just to play Devil's Advocate...

I can see three big reasons to pick a GTO over a Mustang Cobra. First, the GTO is $3,000 - $4,000 cheaper.

It is? That would make the GTO MSRP $29,000 to $30,000.
It is advertised as $33,000 -$35,000 depending on options, transmission


Originally posted by Michael_S
Second, the Cobra has been the only V8 RWD coupe on the block for under $40,000 since the Camaro and Trans Am were axed, so the GTO is a change of pace.

that's what I said. the GTO is GMs scramble to try to appease Camaro/Firebird buyers.


Originally posted by Michael_S
Third, the Cobra is already supercharged to make its 390 horsepower while the GTO makes 350 horses without any forced induction. Add a supercharger with even relatively mild boost to a GTO, and you're probably in the mid 400s easily. Of course, it's possible that even mild boost will kill your LS1 engine in short order.
Cobras have typically tested at over 390 RWHP, which means the HP at the flywheel is higher than the reported 390.
Will the GTO be at least 350 RWHP? not from what I've read. We'll see.





Originally posted by Michael_S
If it works, though, you spent as much as a new Cobra cost for a car that's got a lot more power.

But you already stated the GTO is $3-4,000 cheaper?

[TripleTransAm]

Haggis, my '98 has had a few minor glitches, but nothing related to motor or drivetrain, knock on e-wood. There's the usual headlight motor thing that happened to me once, a squeak in the exhaust which was probably due to messing with a joint when I modified the stock muffler... oh yeah, got my fuel level sender replaced as well. Not much else. And it's never left me stranded, an accomplishment I proudly reserve for my MM and my '78 T/A (and my '78 has the excuse of being a 22 year old car at the time!).

[RCSignals]

Yes but Black Cloud, your MM stranding was kind of a freak thing ;)

The WS6 is a special car. Wasn't the production on them kind of low?
I know they aren't your common place Firebird.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RCSignals
Yes but Black Cloud, your MM stranding was kind of a freak thing ;)

The WS6 is a special car. Wasn't the production on them kind of low?
I know they aren't your common place Firebird.


I'd hardly call the harness slicing issue a freak thing, there were a few others with different symptoms but all related to harness getting sliced on some sharp surface. As I mentioned before, a little investment in a tie wrap or two on Ford's part would have saved a few of us some grief. But, now that the ticking head is gone, I'm looking forward to trouble-free motoring with this beast.... I hope.

The WS6 was limited in some years, if not all of them. My year was the first to use the LS1, and the first to get the ASC-built hood (due to the new-for-1998 front end treatment). Initial plans were for 2800 to be built, and by the time the first units arrived at the ASC warehouse here in Montreal for completion, they were already all sold.

This was in Feb 1998, and I was unaware of this limitation as I tried to place my order at the end of March 1998. All the dealer could tell me was that for some reason the computer system wasn't accepting the order. On April 1st, it suddenly got accepted when they tried again. What we didn't know was that a decision had been made to increase production by some 300 additional units for 1998, of which 10 of these were to be available in Canada. My order came in at number 8! Close call...

So when all was said and done, I own one of ~3100 WS6 Trans Ams, of which 150 were made for sale in Canada. So it's at least a 1 of 150 car, and then you gotta break it down by 6-speed versus automatic. But considering how many black Trans Ams there were in 1998, I think my car isn't gonna get much rarer than that! ;)

In 1999 and beyond, I believe production of WS6 at least doubled, as compared to 1998.

[Michael_S]

RCSignals,
From what I've read, the GTO is base MSRP about $32,000. The Mustang Cobra base MSRP is $36,000. Now, I admit it's possible (in fact, likely) that some foolish Pontiac dealers will engage in price gouging on the GTO while Ford dealers will probably cut a deal on the Cobra because the next gen Mustang is coming soon. On paper, though, the GTO is $3,000-$4,000 cheaper.

I had no idea that the Cobra was much better than the listed power ratings. I thought the Cobra was peak 390 horsepower and torque at the crankshaft, the GTO is 350 horsepower and 365 torque, as written. If the Cobra is 390 horsepower to the ground, then unless the GTO stats are similarly understated, it's at a big disadvantage. By the way, I'm not doubting what you said. It makes sense that the Cobra has better than listed power, because most of the magazines give it a 4.8 second or better 0-60 mph and sub 13 second quarter mile times, stock. The GTO is rated, so far, in the mid to low 5 seconds for the 0-60 mph and mid 13 second quarter mile times.

For my last item in the previous post, assuming the GTO and Cobra's specs are as listed, I meant to emphasize that it would be easy to mod the GTO up to the Cobra's performance level. I wasn't trying to bring up price twice. If you want to get more power out of a Cobra with forced induction, you have to replace the existing supercharger with a new system and be careful about pushing the engine too hard. If you want to get more power out of the GTO, there is no existing supercharger to replace so hopefully a decent system can skyrocket your power without too much risk of engine wreck.

I do think it's noteworthy that edmunds.com, which is pretty critical of all the cars it reviews and arguably biased against the big three, considers the GTO to be one of the best cars GM has put out in years. I haven't read a bad review of it yet.

[RCSignals]

From what I've read, the Cobra can take more boost quite easily,
a stock LS1 however cannot take a lot of boost without help.

MSRP I've seen for Cobras, the 2003s anyway, has been less than $36,000. The convertibles are more than the coupe, but why use that MSRP when the GTO doesn't have a convertible? The base MSRP for the GTOs has been over $32,000, closer to $34,000. Then it has options on top of that.

The GTO may well be one of the best cars GM has put out in years. Remember though that it isn't a "new" car. It's based on the Australian Holden which is based on the defunct Opel Omega platform.
I regularly hear people criticise the Mustang for being built on an old platform. I've seen little criticism of the "new" GTO for also being built on an old platform. In fact most reviews would make you think it isn't. The usual double standard.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RCSignals
I've seen little criticism of the "new" GTO for also being built on an old platform. In fact most reviews would make you think it isn't. The usual double standard.


Ironically, Car and Driver did bring this to light, in their current issue. It's actually the first review I've seen that explicitly states this.

They ran a best of 14.0 at 103, I think. Again, not a good representation of what the vehicle can do, in my opinion.

[Michael_S]

If I recall correctly, Automobile magazine and Edmunds.com both made mention of the use of an older platform. They just stated that it was a well updated version of the platform.

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
They ran a best of 14.0 at 103, I think. Again, not a good representation of what the vehicle can do, in my opinion.

Look how C+D represented the Marauder. If they did the same with the GTO as the MM they didn't drive it on a regular track to get those times.

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by Michael_S
If I recall correctly, Automobile magazine and Edmunds.com both made mention of the use of an older platform. They just stated that it was a well updated version of the platform.

There you have an example. Rarely, if ever, when they talk about the "aged" Mustang platform or the "aged" Panther platform, do they emphasise how they have been improved and updated. I've read many references to the Panther platform as being from 1979, but never how the current platform in use barely resembles what was used in 1979. Especially the 2003 frame and suspension.
As I said, the double standard.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RCSignals
Look how C+D represented the Marauder. If they did the same with the GTO as the MM they didn't drive it on a regular track to get those times.


There is an interesting tidbit in the reader's mail area that has my curiousity piqued.

Someone complained about an unrealistic performance result, and how he was trying to compare it with other road test results for other cars. The response was not to use the performance results for direct comparison because of the way they were tested.

I know this could mean a lot of things... not identical tracks, not identical weather conditions, etc. etc. etc...

...but suddenly my gut feeling told me that maybe they're using accelerometer testing (G-tech, Veritech or whatever, etc.) instead of actual track results. I mean, they test a LOT of cars... do they have unlimited access to a test track for all these tests?

[RCSignals]

Steve, I think that is what they are doing, using those gizmo's. I've seen picture of them "testing" having one of those bicycle wheel do-dads attached to a car recording data as well.
Thing is, people took their Marauder numbers and ran with them, and when MM+FF had more realistic numbers, and actually tested on a track, people claimed MM+FF was biased, that they had professional drivers etc.

[RCSignals]

GTO ad

http://www.ls1gto.com/media/artwork/GTOAD.WMV

[b4z]

Mustang Cobra and GTO is not that realistic because it is a different buyer. GTO has a much better interior and is more grown up.
Yes Cobra has more HP but it not as refined or roomy as the Goat.
Ford tried to sell the Mustang in Australia and it flopped. Poor materials and build.
if you want to compare the GTO, use the G35, BMW 6 coupe and Mercedes CLK.
The G35 is a couple thousand more expensive and smaller inside.
The BMW is exactly twice as expensive and has a smaller backseat.
The Mercedes is 20-40K more expensive and also has a smaller backseat.
As far as comparing it to a fbody. No way. They have the same build quality as the Mustang. I should know I have had 5 Z28s.
The GTo is superior to all of those cars except in looks.

[RCSignals]

b4z that's the first I've read indicating the GTO is of a superior quality of materials and build, on par with upper end BMWs and MB. Most I've read has indicated otherwise. Same for interior space.
I have yet to see a GTO personally, so I'll reserve opinion, but I'll be very surprised it it is superior to the cars you listed.
In the looks department, from photos, I'd call it insipid.

[b4z]

I was comparing build quality of Mustang/Fbody.

And comparing the size of the CLK and 6 series to GTO.

GTO has 37.1" rear legroom. Fbody had 26.8".

On another GTO note.
A 20 year old w 2 tickets was quoted $8K a yr. for insurance.

[RCSignals]

$8k for insurance? Wow, the car hasn't even landed yet and Insurance Companies are setting rates.

While they aren't the same car, I still think the GTO is GMs scramble to fill the void left by the F-body. It wasn't as easy or inexpensive to get together for the NA market as they thought it'd be though

[jgc61sr2002]

Ins. rates are always a problem for young people with high performance cars. Always check with your ins. broker for the rates before purchasing a new vehicle.

[Donny Carlson]

If you are willing to spend a few thousand more than the asking price of the new GTO, Volo will sell you this beauty..

from their website:

1969 PONTIAC GTO CONVERTIBLE
THIS CAR HAS VERY FEW MILES ON A FRAME OFF, METICULOUS RESTORATION. NUMBERS MATCHING, PONTIAC HISTORICAL SOCIETY DOCUMENTED. COMPLETELY DISASSEMBLED, REBUILT AND DETAILED LIKE IT JUST ROLLED OFF THE ASSEMBLY LINE. REBUILT MOTOR, TRANS, REAR END, SUSPENSION, BRAKES, ETC. COMPLETELY RESTORED INTERIOR AND TOP. GORGEOUS WET LOOKING PAINT ON A RUST FREE, MINT BODY. HIGHLY DETAILED MOTOR, TRUNK AND UNDERSIDE. MANY, MANY NEW PARTS. LOADED WITH DESIRABLE OPTIONS INCLUDING AIR CONDITIONING. GORGEOUS COLORS. YOU'RE PAYING FOR THE RESTORATION AND GETTING THE CAR FOR FREE. TAKE ADVANTAGE OF SOMEONE ELSE'S HARD WORK. ALSO AVAILABLE 12 MONTH 12,000 MILE WARRANTY ON MOST CARS ONLY $899.00. DON'T FORGET TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OUR RECORD BREAKING FINANCE RATES".

$39,998

[RCSignals]

That's a much better GTO

[b4z]

Or, you could buy this 1 owner 1968 survivor complete with poverty caps.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=7244&item=2444114059

I understand that Volo is not really a car museum.
But a retail store for musclecars and classics.

[P74vic]

This subject reminds me of the Caprice debates in 1989 and 1990, just as the new body style was being released. Everybody raised cain about the new body style. But now..... any cop worth their weight in salt would take a 1994, 1995 or 1996 Caprice over any year previously made. They would also take them over a Crown Victoria or a Marauder. (Not that many would ever be issued a Marauder anyway)

The new GTO body style is just like clothing styles, will take a while to grow on you. Based on what I have seen so far the new GTO should be capable of 150 to 160 mph without anything but a speed limiter mod.

Now, the down side..... went to Thanksgiving dinner at my brother's in-laws. My brother's father-in-law, age 65, admires the new GTO and is interested in buying one. Reminds me of the folks that seek out the Crown Victoria Sport models. I wonder if "grandpa" will be their market???

[Michael_S]

Originally posted by P74vic
Now, the down side..... went to Thanksgiving dinner at my brother's in-laws. My brother's father-in-law, age 65, admires the new GTO and is interested in buying one. Reminds me of the folks that seek out the Crown Victoria Sport models. I wonder if "grandpa" will be their market???

That's always the way it is, though. In 30 years I'll be 56. My mortgage should be paid off completely. My salary should be at least 15% higher than it is now, and probably nearly twice as much. My student loans and my wife's student loans will be paid off. Payments on our children's student loans will be their responsibility. My car insurance rates will be much lower than they are now.

I won't be looking to buy a hot rod then because it is my "mid-life crisis car", I will looking to buy one then because it is my "I can finally afford something cool car".

[RCSignals]

I just read the review of the GTO in Motortrend. on first read it seems pretty good. But on second read, they don't really say that much about the car. Everything they say is nice stuff, they really say nothing wrong. It's surprising how they say the suspension feels like it is filled with "Cool whip" and make it sound like it's a good attribute.
The article reads as if it were written by Pontiac marketing, not the typical critical Magazine writers

[TripleTransAm]

Depends on what you're comparing to, RC. My WS6's suspension is silky smooth compared with my rock-hard GTA, but I suspect the handling is equal or better (at least, the car had enough grip to massacre a local road course with little effort, at high speeds). Modern suspensions are a work of art, indeed...

[RCSignals]

Well "Cool whip" doesn't exactly make me think of a smooth refined modern suspension.

There are other subtleties in the article. Looks like that rear seat space is gained by moving the seat back (it's only a two place seat), placing the rear passenger's heads under the rear window.
This also has the effect of reducing trunk space. Of course they also had to move the fuel tank from the australian position, to meat NA requirements, which also takes up trunk space. (that from another article)

[Racerx88]

Remember this new GTO also has a fully independent rear. No solid axle here. This will make it ride MUCH smoother than the average GM rear drive car.

[RCSignals]

true about the independent rear. But people don't like them for drag racing. Many Cobra owners switch them out. i wonder if that will happen with the GTO?

[b4z]

P74vic,
I get the point that you are trying to make with Caprice bodystyles, but don't forget that the '90 Caprice had the upper half of the rear wheels completely covered by sheet metal. It was pretty bad. An upside down bathtub was the most mentioned analogy.
Also in '94 all b-body Caprices got the LT1 engine. (4.4L and 5.7L)
AND the rear wheels were exposed.
So the '90s had 2 strikes against them.

Back to the GTO!

[SHERIFF]

I kinda liked the old 50's "fender skirt" look myself! :)

[jgc61sr2002]

Was't the new body style introduced in 1991?

[SHERIFF]

Originally posted by jgc61sr2002
Was't the new body style introduced in 1991?

I think so. 1991 was the new body style. 1991 and 1992 had the fender skirt look. 1993 was the first year for the open wheel wells. Until 1995 they all had the pointed rear side window. 1995, 1996 and 1997 had the rounded rear side windows. Keep in mind though, there was no 1997 Impala SS, but they still produced the Caprice for police use for a while.

edited to add:

in 1995 the rear view mirrors were moved from the door sheetmetal and placed up with the glass.

Another tidbit....... in the pre/1991 models you could tell the difference between the police package and civilian car by the rear view mirrors on the door. The police package all had chrome mirrors, the civilian cars had body color painted mirrors.