Opinions on Salary

[FordNut]

I don't feel comfortable with the direction we're going as a Nation, with salaries and compensation for private enterprise being set by the government. Sure, I can see limits being set as a condition for taking government bailout money. But we're going a lot farther than that. How about the healthcare industry? The government, through Medicare, decides how much to pay Doctors for specific procedures. And they're cutting the reimbursement for all those procedures by another 20% even though Medicare already pays less than cash customers or private insurance companies. This is one reason many Doctors refuse to treat Medicare patients. Basically the Government is setting the pay rates for Doctors. Who is next? Lawyers? Probably, as a side effect of tort reform. But probably not too much since most members of Congress come from the legal profession. So why is it they can set pay rates for private industry but they also get to vote on their own pay raises? Shouldn't the pay raises for Congress be decided by their employers, their Constituents? Shouldn't that be submitted for a vote?

Could we please have a civil discussion on where y'all stand on these issues?

[O's Fan Rich]

It's cool until they come for mine..... get those rich Bastards!!!!

That's the general opinion....

fools.

[dohc324ci]

FordNut interesting thread. Thinking more to the root of why we are where we are...

I think people need to do more than just belly ache (including me). I think people need to be more involved when they don't like what they are seeing....most folks don't want to think about these issues and when they do there is no action. What needs to happen is we need to educate ourselves on the issues and act on it. And that can be bringing your arguments/perspectives in our circle of influence (family/friends). Join a local/regional grass roots effort to support the change you have passion for. For example, I am not happy (living Cali) with our 30B dollar deficit yet I don't think other than sending in a check and voting for someone with an R after their name have done anything else (ok and the occasional cigar/scotch hanging with the boys garage night..lol). I was listening to Michele Bachmann (Min) on a local talk show and she brought up some interesting valid and reasonable action items. Using email/telephone on a regular "consistent" basis to communicate your discourse to your local representative...although may not seem much they have to staff/track the types of calls they receive from their constituents. But your right the government is more and more involved in our lives we just need to say enough is enough through some sort of local/regional grass roots...heck even within our own circle of influence....ok my 2cts..

[Crown Vicman]

Why dont we talk about why the dollar is still falling in secret? Bush and Obama have screwed us all.

[SC Cheesehead]

So why is it they can set pay rates for private industry but they also get to vote on their own pay raises? Shouldn't the pay raises for Congress be decided by their employers, their Constituents? Shouldn't that be submitted for a vote?

Could we please have a civil discussion on where y'all stand on these issues?



It's cool until they come for mine..... get those rich Bastards!!!!

That's the general opinion....

fools.

Just give it time. :shake:

Many folks of a conservative bent decry the noticable shift toward socialism being pursued by our current government, however, government control of private industries (i.e. salaries, etc.) sounds more like the "F" word to me: fascism, i.e. "a governmental system...having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc..."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism

Control of the banking industry, control two of the three major US autmakers, a move toward government-mandated health care, pending Cap-and-Trade legistlation, a resurgence of the "Fairness Doctrine" and an overt attempt at controlling the media, are just some examples that come to mind. FWIW, my :twocents:.

[guspech750]

It seams to me that we vote certain people into various postions only to be very dissapointed with their work. So then we vote in other people to take over but they too just end up becoming corrupt or try to surpress us to. It seams who ever we vote in to various positions they just end up becoming bags of ***** that we would want to beat and hang. There needs to be a complete cleaning of the whole government from local to federal. Be it through voting, or falling down a flight of steps and dying, or maybe they could put a bullet through their head..........Sorry. My anger is starting to speak. I will stop now.

[duhtroll]

Corporate salaries and bonuses are out of control.

No, I'm not in favor of the government controlling all salaries, but we are rapidly becoming a 2 class system with the "capitalists" in control. And make no mistake, Congress is owned by those with money. They don't decide for themselves - they do what they are paid to do.

The bailouts were a mistake (pre and post-Obama) and blaming one person, no matter who, is silly.

The greedy were given power, and people wonder why such a small percentage of people control such a large percentage of wealth?

There are a lot of government employees who do not set their own salaries, too, BTW.

I'd say give them a shot at it. CEOs got us where we are now and I doubt the gov't can do much worse.

[SC Cheesehead]

Corporate salaries and bonuses are out of control.

No, I'm not in favor of the government controlling all salaries, but we are rapidly becoming a 2 class system with the "capitalists" in control. And make no mistake, Congress is owned by those with money. They don't decide for themselves - they do what they are paid to do.

The bailouts were a mistake (pre and post-Obama) and blaming one person, no matter who, is silly.

The greedy were given power, and people wonder why such a small percentage of people control such a large percentage of wealth?

There are a lot of government employees who do not set their own salaries, too, BTW.

I'd say give them a shot at it. CEOs got us where we are now and I doubt the gov't can do much worse.

Ahhhh, like they say in the Goldschlager ads...http://i.ebayimg.com/24/!BYkBkCQ!2k~$(KGrHgoH-DMEjlLluysEBKiM-7d+-g~~_35.JPG

[dohc324ci]

Corporate salaries and bonuses are out of control.

No, I'm not in favor of the government controlling all salaries, but we are rapidly becoming a 2 class system with the "capitalists" in control. And make no mistake, Congress is owned by those with money. They don't decide for themselves - they do what they are paid to do.

The bailouts were a mistake (pre and post-Obama) and blaming one person, no matter who, is silly.

The greedy were given power, and people wonder why such a small percentage of people control such a large percentage of wealth?

There are a lot of government employees who do not set their own salaries, too, BTW.

I'd say give them a shot at it. CEOs got us where we are now and I doubt the gov't can do much worse.

How did the CEO get us where we are at? If you do for CEOs you've got to do to Athletes, Hollywood (actors/directors) your logic doesnt connect sorry? If we are all making the same $$$ then why go to school to be a Dr./Lawyer/Engineer?? We are not all equal pay wise I would want the BEST of the BEST running my corporation, my movie, my basketball/team etc..

[Mr. Man]

Pay for performance.

[guspech750]

How did the CEO get us where we are at? If you do for CEOs you've got to do to Athletes, Hollywood (actors/directors) your logic doesnt connect sorry? If we are all making the same $$$ then why go to school to be a Dr./Lawyer/Engineer?? We are not all equal pay wise I would want the BEST of the BEST running my corporation, my movie, my basketball/team etc..
How did the CEOs get us here. Well we could go on for a long time. Just look into Enron or how Lucent took a crap (and many more companies). CEOs had all their employee retirements that was basicly company stock that went to crap with the CEOs inflated profits inflated stock prices that ended up nose diving with stock values becoming useless. All those people and many many more people and companies were run and still are ran like this. All the small people lost everything while the CEOs are doing just fine I might add. But I like footing the bill. What else was I going to do with my money. Why would I want to mod my car, or buy a new sofa, or keep my family healthy or finish my basement.

Heres what needs to be done to most CEOs and the governments....
:flamer:

[dohc324ci]

Wow....while I hear your frustration with Corporate they dont make the laws/policy. That is the politicians job. What you fail to realize is Enron and Lucent pay dearly for their mistakes, while politicians dont. Even GM the worlds biggest automaker had their CEO/board replaced their sales in the tank and will take years to recover. Politicians are where your fingers should be pointing. They are ambitious sobs that crave power and power ultimately corrupts either side right or left.

[guspech750]

Wow....while I hear your frustration with Corporate they dont make the laws/policy. That is the politicians job. What you fail to realize is Enron and Lucent pay dearly for their mistakes, while politicians dont. Even GM the worlds biggest automaker had their CEO/board replaced their sales in the tank and will take years to recover. Politicians are where your fingers should be pointing. They are ambitious sobs that crave power and power ultimately corrupts either side right or left.


I should have added that Corporate and law makers are in it together. Corps are paying the lobbyist that convince law makers and pay into their political funds. last time I checked, I could not afford to pay a lobbyist to convince law makers what I would like done.

No more lobbyist. No more donations. Anyone running for office should pay out of their pocket. Just like I would pay for steel toe boots or carharts for work so I can do my job.
You want to run for office. Go ahead. They should pay for everything out of their pocket if they want to do that job just like you and me and countless millions.

[FordNut]

I guess there are strong opinions about how we got here and who is responsible. What I'm getting at is the Government setting salaries. Consider this: Your job, whatever it is, gets attention of the Feds because somebody in another state brought attention to it (through theft, embezzlement, whatever) so the government decides you're overpaid and they're going to cut your pay by 20%. Is this territory the federal government needs to be getting into?

I mean WTH, some members of Congress are pushing for Obama to weigh in on the BCS. College sports? At the Federal level? I just feel that the Government is overstepping what We, The People want them to do.

[guspech750]

Oh. I agree the government is overstepping in a lot of areas. We all might as well quit our jobs then nobody gets anything.LOL

[duhtroll]

Education and ability have never equaled money in this country, and the notion that they do is a myth.

Unless by ability you mean the ability to screw others, because that is how every single rich person in the history of rich people (outside of lottery winners) made their dough. Either they did it, or someone up their family tree did.




How did the CEO get us where we are at? If you do for CEOs you've got to do to Athletes, Hollywood (actors/directors) your logic doesnt connect sorry? If we are all making the same $$$ then why go to school to be a Dr./Lawyer/Engineer?? We are not all equal pay wise I would want the BEST of the BEST running my corporation, my movie, my basketball/team etc..

[dohc324ci]

Liberalism is a mental disorder......lol

[Cordoba1]

Please note that the government is NOT attempting to control salaries of private companies. They are only working on a bill to control compensation of those companies that took a "bail out" tarp loan.

It's a brilliant idea.. Here's why: As soon as the companies pay off their TARP loans, they can then pay out (and operate in general) any way they see fit. It is an excellent incentive to get the tax payers money back. That is exactly why some of the banks have been paying back their TARP money early!

[SC Cheesehead]

Education and ability have never equaled money in this country, and the notion that they do is a myth.

Unless by ability you mean the ability to screw others, because that is how every single rich person in the history of rich people (outside of lottery winners) made their dough. Either they did it, or someone up their family tree did.

So what you're saying is that trying to improve yourself by going to college and developing a marketable skillset is useless, and that only people that screw others get ahead?

I call :bs: on that. Sounds like typical BHL crap to me.


Please note that the government is NOT attempting to control salaries of private companies. They are only working on a bill to control compensation of those companies that took a "bail out" tarp loan.

It's a brilliant idea.. Here's why: As soon as the companies pay off their TARP loans, they can then pay out (and operate in general) any way they see fit. It is an excellent incentive to get the tax payers money back. That is exactly why some of the banks have been paying back their TARP money early!

My friend, this is just a foot in the door, at the end of the day, it's all about wealth redistribution.

[FordNut]

Please note that the government is NOT attempting to control salaries of private companies. They are only working on a bill to control compensation of those companies that took a "bail out" tarp loan.

It's a brilliant idea.. Here's why: As soon as the companies pay off their TARP loans, they can then pay out (and operate in general) any way they see fit. It is an excellent incentive to get the tax payers money back. That is exactly why some of the banks have been paying back their TARP money early!

Not true. The biggest uproar now is the bonuses paid out by firms that took and already paid back the TARP money.



My friend, this is just a foot in the door, at the end of the day, it's all about wealth redistribution.

Absolutely.

[DEFYANT]

Government.

Study successful businesses, learn, and incorporate that into what you do.

[duhtroll]

I said nothing of the sort. "Getting ahead" as you say and being rich are very, very different.

It probably sounds like BHL crap because you had the tune playing in your head before you joined the discussion.



So what you're saying is that trying to improve yourself by going to college and developing a marketable skillset is useless, and that only people that screw others get ahead?

I call :bs: on that. Sounds like typical BHL crap to me.



My friend, this is just a foot in the door, at the end of the day, it's all about wealth redistribution.

[babbage]

Govt spends 500 million a day just on the interest of the debt.

Obama has broken records with deficit spending. At this rate your 401K interest rates won't beat the inflation. We really need to cut down the federal govt. I'd say about half the size it is now would do nicely.

Other: doctors get sued all the time. Many lawsuits are frauds. Many people also defraud the whole medical system (its very easy)

[DEFYANT]

Not true. The biggest uproar now is the bonuses paid out by firms that took and already paid back the TARP money.




Are you fncking serious!? That is wrong on so many levels. GIVE THAT MONEY BACK TO THE GOV'T

[FordNut]

Whatcha mean? They paid back what they borrowed (interest free), so now they're apparently free to do as they please with company profits. So they're back to the same old ways, it's going out as bonuses to top executives.

[dohc324ci]

I said nothing of the sort. "Getting ahead" as you say and being rich are very, very different.

It probably sounds like BHL crap because you had the tune playing in your head before you joined the discussion.

So the CEOs at HP, IBM, Paypal, Yahoo, Google and Intel are all crooked and screwed everyone over to get rich.....hmmm wow. If you truly believe that wow.

[SC Cheesehead]

I said nothing of the sort. "Getting ahead" as you say and being rich are very, very different.

It probably sounds like BHL crap because you had the tune playing in your head before you joined the discussion.

Okay, then I guess we need to define rich.

Along with that, please expound on the definition on an acceptable level of wealth obtained by "getting ahead."

Also, what's the tipping point between the two, I sure wouldn't want to cross over...:rolleyes:

[Leadfoot281]

"Education and ability have never equaled money in this country, and the notion that they do is a myth." Duhtroll.

Good grief! You're actually a teacher? :eek: :eek: :eek:

I always thought dropping out of school was a bad idea...

[dohc324ci]

"Education and ability have never equaled money in this country, and the notion that they do is a myth." Duhtroll.

Good grief! You're actually a teacher? :eek: :eek: :eek:

I always thought dropping out of school was a bad idea...

That explains it....lol

[Mr. Man]

[quote=Leadfoot281;821759]"Education and ability have never equaled money in this country, and the notion that they do is a myth." Duhtroll.



Lay mans version- It's not what you know, it's who you know.

[duhtroll]

Look, if you're going to follow this logic, then you guys have to then say that the smartest people in this country should also be the richest.

If ability equals money, you HAVE to.

Since the richest people are NOT the smartest, and many of the richest folks out there inherited their money, you lose.

I also love it when people measure success by how much money a person makes. It really makes them look stupid.

And yes, I would say the CEOs of large corporations have most certainly screwed over many, many people to get where they are.

And if they didn't, they were handed the position by someone who did.

You guys do know how greed works, don't you? You can't make money without taking it from someone else.

Anyone who thinks that someone in that position is able to get there without stepping on others is naive.



"Education and ability have never equaled money in this country, and the notion that they do is a myth." Duhtroll.

Good grief! You're actually a teacher? :eek: :eek: :eek:

I always thought dropping out of school was a bad idea...

[Phrog_gunner]

that is how every single rich person in the history of rich people (outside of lottery winners) made their dough.

It's hard to fathom the ignorance of a statement like that.....

[duhtroll]

Bill Gates?

Stole Apple's idea...

I suppose you could then say he was smart enough to not be in jail...

[duhtroll]

I'm way ahead.

I'm far from what most here would call rich, monetarily.

And yeah, you made up your own straw man to argue against. It is why you were so far off base.


Okay, then I guess we need to define rich.

Along with that, please expound on the definition on an acceptable level of wealth obtained by "getting ahead."

Also, what's the tipping point between the two, I sure wouldn't want to cross over...:rolleyes:

[duhtroll]

Dig into any very wealthy person's past - you'll find plenty of people that got screwed over by them (or their daddy who gave them their inheritance) - or have you missed scandal after scandal?

After scandal...

After, oh, nevermind!


It's hard to fathom the ignorance of a statement like that.....

[duhtroll]

Wait a sec - I've heard your story one too many times.

Where did you get your money? Education?

I rest my case.


"Education and ability have never equaled money in this country, and the notion that they do is a myth." Duhtroll.

Good grief! You're actually a teacher? :eek: :eek: :eek:

I always thought dropping out of school was a bad idea...

[Phrog_gunner]

Just because there have been scandals doesn't mean that no one in the history of man has ever done right for the people that work for them. There is a term for blanket statements like that.......prejudice.

[dohc324ci]

Look, if you're going to follow this logic, then you guys have to then say that the smartest people in this country should also be the richest.

If ability equals money, you HAVE to.

Since the richest people are NOT the smartest, and many of the richest folks out there inherited their money, you lose.

I also love it when people measure success by how much money a person makes. It really makes them look stupid.

And yes, I would say the CEOs of large corporations have most certainly screwed over many, many people to get where they are.

And if they didn't, they were handed the position by someone who did.

You guys do know how greed works, don't you? You can't make money without taking it from someone else.

Anyone who thinks that someone in that position is able to get there without stepping on others is naive.

The funny thing is...their are actually alot of people that think this way...I guess Micheal Moore and Al Gore and MSNBC have allot more influence than I give them credit for. Not to mention the crap our teacher's at our universities are preaching. No wonder we are at were we are at in this country. Try and be and independent thinker as opposed to a mouth piece for the left.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with someone getting ahead. Its called competition. The best of the best make a pro team, the same should go for a highly compensated positions.

[Mike]

Pay for performance.

I agree 100%!!! Too many salaries getting out of control, big business, athletes, etc.....:shake:

[Leadfoot281]

Wait a sec - I've heard your story one too many times.

Where did you get your money? Education?

I rest my case.

I suppose you're going to try and say that because my Dad died and left me a small farm in Minnesota I've somehow screwed some over.

Go ahead. Just don't do it with your mouth full.

I paid $907,000 in DEATH TAX after my Dad died. Exactly who screwed who over? :confused: That's where your pay check comes from.

I'm pretty sure that these uneducated idiots you speak so highly of would have blown it all by now. I haven't. In fact, I've darn near doubled my net worth in 8 years.

Your contention that for every dollar earned takes a dollar away from someone else is silly. Money is NOT a finite resource! Wealth is built. The pilgrims didn't land here with 300 trillion dollars! Following your "logic" they did.

Socialism: The reason it's taken China 3,000+ years to catch up to America.

[SC Cheesehead]

I'm way ahead.

I'm far from what most here would call rich, monetarily.

And yeah, you made up your own straw man to argue against. It is why you were so far off base.


I sense a major case of wealth envy here. If the rich weren't just so RICH, they'd be okay, right?

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

Yeah, let's try that out and see how well it works. :rolleyes:

[ROCOB]

Interesting thread. :popcorn: I recognize some of the standard acronyms, BFE, BMF, BMX, BMG, and even BMW, but could someone tell me what "BHL" means?

thanks.

[SC Cheesehead]

Interesting thread. :popcorn: I recognize some of the standard acronyms, BFE, BMF, BMX, BMG, and even BMW, but could someone tell me what "BHL" means?

thanks.

Bleeding
Heart
Liberal

[duhtroll]

And yet when American businesses fail in favor of foreign companies we hear all sorts of temper tantrums on how things aren't fair.

And I'll say it again. I'm not talking about "getting ahead." I'm talking about folks on the top of the monetary ladder.

And if education determines success, and universities preach crap...

Well, you just shot down your own argument.


The funny thing is...their are actually alot of people that think this way...I guess Micheal Moore and Al Gore and MSNBC have allot more influence than I give them credit for. Not to mention the crap our teacher's at our universities are preaching. No wonder we are at were we are at in this country. Try and be and independent thinker as opposed to a mouth piece for the left.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with someone getting ahead. Its called competition. The best of the best make a pro team, the same should go for a highly compensated positions.

[duhtroll]

Actually, I am very comfortable where I am - I have stated that every time this bailout stuff or gas price hike stuff comes up, too. I wouldn't trade my life with anyone's. Present, past, future.

But keep trying to define me so you have something to argue against. I am sure it will work.

And no, I'm not really kidding about that part. People would rather argue against their own prejudice than reality. You have done it now in this thread.

Twice.


I sense a major case of wealth envy here. If the rich weren't just so RICH, they'd be okay, right?

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

Yeah, let's try that out and see how well it works. :rolleyes:

[duhtroll]

And yet another person telling me what I think or what I am going to say.

The position given up the thread was (simplified) education determines income. You hinted that you dropped out of school, yet you have a pretty decent lifestyle.

I used you as an example that inheritance was indeed common and that education and ability had very little to do with many folks' rise to wealth.

You just proved it.

And I have not, repeat not, spoken highly of Congress. I merely explained that they are corporate shills and could theoretically not do as bad a job as our CEOs have. The Congress are paid very well to return the votes they are told to return.

And again, you b*tch and moan about taxes. We've heard it all before. Go cry to someone who cares. I pay taxes too, and I don't complain about them. Our taxes in this country are a bargain for all we get in return.

And once again, NO, your taxes do not pay my salary. Not directly, not indirectly.

Maybe you shoulda stayed in school so you would have even more money. :D

So you're saying that at some point in the financial food chain, money is free? It comes from no one? Nowhere? Wow.

Just, wow.


I suppose you're going to try and say that because my Dad died and left me a small farm in Minnesota I've somehow screwed some over.

Go ahead. Just don't do it with your mouth full.

I paid $907,000 in DEATH TAX after my Dad died. Exactly who screwed who over? :confused: That's where your pay check comes from.

I'm pretty sure that these uneducated idiots you speak so highly of would have blown it all by now. I haven't. In fact, I've darn near doubled my net worth in 8 years.

Your contention that for every dollar earned takes a dollar away from someone else is silly. Money is NOT a finite resource! Wealth is built. The pilgrims didn't land here with 300 trillion dollars! Following your "logic" they did.

Socialism: The reason it's taken China 3,000+ years to catch up to America.

[SC Cheesehead]

Actually, I am very comfortable where I am - I have stated that every time this bailout stuff or gas price hike stuff comes up, too. I wouldn't trade my life with anyone's. Present, past, future.

But keep trying to define me so you have something to argue against. I am sure it will work.

And no, I'm not really kidding about that part. People would rather argue against their own prejudice than reality. You have done it now in this thread.

Twice.

Troll, I'n not trying to define you, I'm asking you, as an apparent liberal, to define what constitutes "rich."

$0 <-------------> Infinite $, somewhere along this continuum there must be a point where any one of us could easily define "rich" and all the inherent "evil" that accompanies this station in life.

But in doing so, I'm basically just tilting at windmills, because as I've so often found in the past, liberals don't quantify, they expound, they deflect, they change the subject. And I think I've finally got it: "rich" isn't something we define in monetary terms, it's just more or less a conceptual thing, huh.

So, let's see if I can get this framed up looking through the liberal lens:

"Rich" is defined as as individuals that have "too much." By extension, if you have "too much" the only way you can achieve this state is either by (a) screwing somebody out of something, or (b) inheriting it from somebody who's done (a) at some time in their life.

"Comfortable" is having "enough." These are a minority of individuals whose ranks government or some other benevolent entity must tirelessly work to grow.

"Poor" is "not having enough." Consequently, if you "don't have enough," then you are either (c) a victim suffering from the oppressive actions of the "Rich," who have screwed you, or (d) you're just plain unlucky. In the past, some insensitive individuals have suggested an alternative, (e) "poor choices/decisions" as a contibutory factor leading to "not having enough," but this has been discounted out of hand by the "truly enlightened."

Call me old-fashioned, but this is still the way I sees it:

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others." - Ayn Rand


or

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter." - Ayn Rand

[dohc324ci]

And yet when American businesses fail in favor of foreign companies we hear all sorts of temper tantrums on how things aren't fair.

And I'll say it again. I'm not talking about "getting ahead." I'm talking about folks on the top of the monetary ladder.

And if education determines success, and universities preach crap...

Well, you just shot down your own argument.


You silly rascal....lol...the university professors influence people to think like the leftist they are! That's what I am talking about. Not the skills/knowledge gained in course work you obtain = crap "You" only take a narrow piece of the the pie and never the the whole perspective to make your argument? FALLACY! You libs are very "narrow" minded and elitists. Because you think you are smarter than all that a select few can tell all how we should think and live...wow. small childish mind you have there sir? Leadership, the ability to coordinate, people/resources and negotiate internal and external publics are some skills set that one needs to be a CEO. Can you do these? no because you are a specialist and you need a union to protect your JOB..and narrow skill set....I am sorry but you fail to realize I am an independent thinker that uses critical thinking skills to form an opinion. You however just rattle off what the left (MSNBC) tells you..what your union tells you what your party (dem) tell you...what your elitist friends tell you..

Mostly everyone in media is a democrat
Mostly everyone in our universities are democrat
Majority in Congress/Senate are democrat - last 6yrs
Majority in California legislature are democrat = 30b deficit
Major Metro Areas LA/NY etc.. all (D)

If you BHL are so great and all knowing shouldn't we be in a Utopian state right now? Oh...boy...

[SC Cheesehead]

If you BHL are so great and all knowing shouldn't we be in a Utopian state right now? Oh...boy...

We are, don't you see? If you, me and the rest of the SRWM would just get the heck out of the way this whole "hopey changey" would work...:rolleyes:

[Leadfoot281]

And yet another person telling me what I think or what I am going to say.

The position given up the thread was (simplified) education determines income. You hinted that you dropped out of school, yet you have a pretty decent lifestyle.

No I did not. YOU said education was worthless. You have the Supercharged Marauder w/radar Jammer. Not me. I don't even have a tune. You also get paid fulltime for part time work. Who's got the nice lifestyle? Stop being envious of me.

I used you as an example that inheritance was indeed common and that education and ability had very little to do with many folks' rise to wealth.

You just proved it.

My grampa went to college. So did my Dad. I went to trade school. I also never inherited a dollar. I inherited a 980 acre farm. You can not buy anything with a shovel full of dirt. It just isn't money.

Everthing I own, I bought. Period. Three generations have just proved you wrong. Hard work and knowledge does pay off.

Your "Tune in, turn on, and drop out" philosophy ain't cutting it here.

I did not screw anyone over when my Dad died. My lib-tard mother did sue me for "inheriting too much money" though. Yep, my Dads ex-wife though she should have inherited her ex-husbands farm. Andy, you and all these other rich-resenting liberals need to cool your hatred of hard work and success. I've been dealing with people like you long enough.

You're also on a very fine line here dude. I miss my Dad a great deal and would instantly trade everything to see him again. DO NOT THINK INHERITING MONEY IS FUN.

And I have not, repeat not, spoken highly of Congress. I merely explained that they are corporate shills and could theoretically not do as bad a job as our CEOs have. The Congress are paid very well to return the votes they are told to return.

And again, you b*tch and moan about taxes. We've heard it all before. Go cry to someone who cares. I pay taxes too, and I don't complain about them. Our taxes in this country are a bargain for all we get in return.

I'll NEVER get back what I've paid in.

And once again, NO, your taxes do not pay my salary. Not directly, not indirectly.

Sure they do. I bought your blower. You can thank me later.

Maybe you shoulda stayed in school so you would have even more money. :D

Maybe you should have bought some cat or fastenal stock instead of the blower. I bought Ford @ $1.40. A lot of it. With money I put in the market many years ago. Way back before my daughter died.

So you're saying that at some point in the financial food chain, money is free? It comes from no one? Nowhere? Wow.

So your saying being a teacher is all about having sex with little kids?

How about this. You don't put words in my mouth and I won't put words in yours. OK?

Back on topic, You said they are two ways to make money.

1. Screw someone out of it. (getting rich screws someone else out of their money). When you said this, it implied that there is a finite amount of money.

2. Inherit it. Again, there's no room in your world view for wealth building that doesn't envolve taking it from other people. Period! Please explain where wealth comes from.



Just, wow.

No doubt. You are one jealous person. Either that or you are comparing your insides (feelings) to my outsides (big farm).

Sure I'll trade with you. I'd get to work 3/4 of the year as a teacher but get paid for full time work, screw all the teenagers I want, and get paid to do it.

[justbob]

So I have a narrow skillset because i'm a Union Plumber?

Lets get something straight here. I am now completing a five year apprenticeship program that no non-union plumber goes through. They are taught by thier boses who make killer money by cutting as many corners as possible, and many times illegally. I would like to consider myself, and any other member of a union that requires years of teaching to the strickest codes, laws, to be a professional in the field that they are in and deserve to make more than the next guy.

It's called a ladder, and I have certainately climbed my way to the top with plenty of obstacles in the way, and I have no problem kicking anyone off thier ladder if they skip steps.

Pay is what your worth, in my field you will not hide long. My union has a ZERO tolerance policy, if you don't represent everything that they have taught you then you will be out on the street before you can blink.

[dohc324ci]

So I have a narrow skillset because i'm a Union Plumber?

Lets get something straight here. I am now completing a five year apprenticeship program that no non-union plumber goes through. They are taught by thier boses who make killer money by cutting as many corners as possible, and many times illegally. I would like to consider myself, and any other member of a union that requires years of teaching to the strickest codes, laws, to be a professional in the field that they are in and deserve to make more than the next guy.

It's called a ladder, and I have certainately climbed my way to the top with plenty of obstacles in the way, and I have no problem kicking anyone off thier ladder if they skip steps.

Pay is what your worth, in my field you will not hide long. My union has a ZERO tolerance policy, if you don't represent everything that they have taught you then you will be out on the street before you can blink.

Hey Justbob,

I dont think your narrow; I just dont appreciate the fact that alot of the unions has so much influence on how its members should think and vote... But dont focus on just that part of my position.

There are many benefits to unions...granted...but when the power sways the other way then the system cannot realistically sustain it we have to adapt.

Auto unions for example; the Japanese are building cars and dont have unions yet put out quality products? NEMI plant in Fremont was a GM run plant and was putting out piss poor products and closed the plant Toyota re opened the plant and brought in the methods/process with the same workforce and no union and put out quality products? I am not going to put out blanket statement that all unions are bad but somewhere there we have to have some sort of balance. I do think unions do have a tremendous impact on organizations and how we compete globally right? That's were I differ from the perspective of other; each corporation's needs are different; each industry is different its not a one shoe fit all solution. Its a case by case company by company industry by industry...

Ok, I am not trying to put anyone person in anyone category just trying to make my argument...and if I offended you I apologize was not my intent. I think this is good dialog to see both sides of the argument....you have yours I have mine and maybe along the we could understand this whole debacle in Washington a little better gain perspective..what I've learned is not to make it personal because emotions get involved and irrational thinking takes over. An open honest debate is healthy...

Cheers!

[BruteForce]

Just because there have been scandals doesn't mean that no one in the history of man has ever done right for the people that work for them. There is a term for blanket statements like that.......prejudice.

Actually it's called "generalization". This thread can't survive without them.

[BruteForce]

$0 <-------------> Infinite $

Your graph is wrong. It should look like this:

Infinite -$ <-------------> Infinite +$

As our corporate overlords have shown us, a positive balance sheet is not necessary for success or bonuses.

[duhtroll]

You asked a question, and then answered it for me.

Twice, and that makes three times you have now tried to speak for me - there are at least three statements in this last post of yours you are trying to make it seem like I believe.

I didn't say money was evil, either. Keep throwing things up there that make your argument stick. But as I said earlier, it is easier to argue against yourself, so I won't stop you.

So if I have to deflect, it is to all the accusations being made of me. Keep spouting your philosophy as if I or this discussion have anything to do with it.

And does it really matter what my answer is? You've decided what you've decided - no point in trying to convince you.


Troll, I'n not trying to define you, I'm asking you, as an apparent liberal, to define what constitutes "rich."

$0 <-------------> Infinite $, somewhere along this continuum there must be a point where any one of us could easily define "rich" and all the inherent "evil" that accompanies this station in life.

But in doing so, I'm basically just tilting at windmills, because as I've so often found in the past, liberals don't quantify, they expound, they deflect, they change the subject. And I think I've finally got it: "rich" isn't something we define in monetary terms, it's just more or less a conceptual thing, huh.

So, let's see if I can get this framed up looking through the liberal lens:

"Rich" is defined as as individuals that have "too much." By extension, if you have "too much" the only way you can achieve this state is either by (a) screwing somebody out of something, or (b) inheriting it from somebody who's done (a) at some time in their life.

"Comfortable" is having "enough." These are a minority of individuals whose ranks government or some other benevolent entity must tirelessly work to grow.

"Poor" is "not having enough." Consequently, if you "don't have enough," then you are either (c) a victim suffering from the oppressive actions of the "Rich," who have screwed you, or (d) you're just plain unlucky. In the past, some insensitive individuals have suggested an alternative, (e) "poor choices/decisions" as a contibutory factor leading to "not having enough," but this has been discounted out of hand by the "truly enlightened."

Call me old-fashioned, but this is still the way I sees it:

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others." - Ayn Rand


or

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter." - Ayn Rand

[BruteForce]

Mostly everyone in media is a democrat (informed people are liberal)
Mostly everyone in our universities are democrat (smart people are liberal)
Majority in Congress/Senate are democrat - last 6yrs (still can't get any commie bills passed)
Majority in California legislature are democrat = 30b deficit (recession had no influence)
Major Metro Areas LA/NY etc.. all (D) (Rudy would argue that point)

If you BHL are so great and all knowing shouldn't we be in a Utopian state right now? Oh...boy...

You had your chance for 8 years. How'd we do?

[duhtroll]

You know, you made lots of conclusions here, none of which are true. Not one single statement. Er, run-on paragraph.

You might win the "leaping before you learn" prize.

Keep trying to define someone you know nothing about. It'll work. Just get 10,000 monkeys and infinite time. I'm pullin' for ya.


You silly rascal....lol...the university professors influence people to think like the leftist they are! That's what I am talking about. Not the skills/knowledge gained in course work you obtain = crap "You" only take a narrow piece of the the pie and never the the whole perspective to make your argument? FALLACY! You libs are very "narrow" minded and elitists. Because you think you are smarter than all that a select few can tell all how we should think and live...wow. small childish mind you have there sir? Leadership, the ability to coordinate, people/resources and negotiate internal and external publics are some skills set that one needs to be a CEO. Can you do these? no because you are a specialist and you need a union to protect your JOB..and narrow skill set....I am sorry but you fail to realize I am an independent thinker that uses critical thinking skills to form an opinion. You however just rattle off what the left (MSNBC) tells you..what your union tells you what your party (dem) tell you...what your elitist friends tell you..

[FordNut]

And does it really matter what my answer is? You've decided what you've decided - no point in trying to convince you.

So quit trying.

[FordNut]

You had your chance for 8 years. How'd we do?

I had a job. Now I don't. How'd you do.

[Leadfoot281]

Your graph is wrong. It should look like this:

Infinite -$ <-------------> Infinite +$

As out corporate overlords have shown us, a positive balance sheet is not necessary for success or bonuses.

Have you looked at Obamas balance sheet lately? :lol: Oh well, I guess they'll just continue to blame a few CEO's for the mess we're in. Maybe once they take away all their pay and worldly goods they can shuttle them off to live in the ghetto. Perhaps make them wear something that shows the world that they are a CEO. A tattoo should work well.

If that doesn't fix the problem they could be shipped off to a camp. A place where these scapegoats can be concentrated.

[BruteForce]

I had a job. Now I don't. How'd you do.

My revenue (self-employed) dropped by half. My largest client is in receivership taking 12K of my unpaid work down the tube with it. But the bright side is I will always have a job because like a good communist I work for myself... oh wait a minute.

[BruteForce]

Have you looked at Obamas balance sheet lately? :lol: Oh well, I guess they'll just continue to blame a few CEO's for the mess we're in. Maybe once they take away all their pay and worldly goods they can shuttle them off to live in the ghetto. Perhaps make them wear something that shows the world that they are a CEO. A tattoo should work well.

If that doesn't fix the problem they could be shipped off to a camp. A place where these scapegoats can be concentrated.

Yeah... he spent all of that... huh. The budget was balanced when he came into office... huh. Damn him!

Why you guys so obsessed with Nazis? Or is that just the absolute worst insult you can think of without saying the N word?

[duhtroll]

No doubt. You are one jealous person. Either that or you are comparing your insides (feelings) to my outsides (big farm).

Will you please learn how to use the quote function? Or find someone with opposable thumbs to do it for you?

So since you say I am jealous, that makes it true? Really?

And yet I am not the one who sounds bitter here. Hmm.


Sure I'll trade with you. I'd get to work 3/4 of the year as a teacher but get paid for full time work, screw all the teenagers I want, and get paid to do it.

I'll match you hour for hour, my "3/4 of the year" vs. your full year. See, I have three jobs. But keep assuming you know me.

Though I do have to admit the screwing the teenagers is a nice perk!



YOU said education was worthless.

Really? Where?


You have the Supercharged Marauder w/radar Jammer. Not me. I don't even have a tune.

So? That means my car is faster than yours. I know, I must be jealous!


You also get paid fulltime for part time work. Who's got the nice lifestyle? Stop being envious of me.

Actually, no I don't. I get paid for my 193 day contract in my teaching job, plus small salaries for my other two jobs. If you call getting paid by the day full time pay for part time work, I'd like to see how that adds up.

I also have hundreds of hours of work outside my contract that is expected of every teacher, but you won't believe that.

That said, yes, I do have a nice lifestyle. If you don't, it is your own fault. Who is envious, again?


My grampa went to college. So did my Dad. I went to trade school. I also never inherited a dollar. I inherited a 980 acre farm. You can not buy anything with a shovel full of dirt. It just isn't money.

Until you sell it, that is. Your choice. Sell the farm, go to school, learn to work on computers. I hear there's a crap ton of money to be made in computers. They are the future of technology!


Everthing I own, I bought. Period. Three generations have just proved you wrong. Hard work and knowledge does pay off.

I believe education was in there, as well as ability, not "hard work and knowledge."

I'd grade that test question about 1/3 credit for getting somewhat close to half the general idea.


I did not screw anyone over when my Dad died.

Of course not! You're poor compared to me, as you imply. Do I need to dig up the posts where you claim to be "loaded" (I assumed you meant money but now I am not so sure) or that you have millions?

Your words, bucko. Own 'em!


Andy, you and all these other rich-resenting liberals need to cool your hatred of hard work and success. I've been dealing with people like you long enough.

Yeah, those CEOs really work hard hours. It takes a lot of effort maintaining 6 summer homes. Oh wait, they have staff for that.


You're also on a very fine line here dude.

Good. I like it when you get all riled up like this. Makes talking to you SO much more fun!

Like you have the monopoly on hardship! Sorry, dude. Cry somewhere else.


Sure they do. I bought your blower. You can thank me later.

I am eager to hear this explanation. If it involves being loaded though, don't bother.


Maybe you should have bought some cat or fastenal stock instead of the blower. I bought Ford @ $1.40. A lot of it. With money I put in the market many years ago. Way back before my daughter died.

I'm not telling you how to spend your money.


So your saying being a teacher is all about having sex with little kids?

Yes! Obviously. Do you watch CSI?


Again, there's no room in your world view for wealth building that doesn't envolve taking it from other people. Period! Please explain where wealth comes from.

Every dollar comes from someone. Even the ones right off the press, if that is what they still do to print money.

Apparently if you own a farm in Minnesota it comes from fairy dust.

[duhtroll]

I thought the liberals were the ones who wanted censorship.

Are you a liberal?


So quit trying.

[MrBluGruv]

Ehh, as a college student, I can say yes there's quite a push to not get a higher education given the way the economy and nation are doing right now. But don't blame the professors: they have nothing to do with it, in fact they won't quit going on about how you have to do it to earn a good life. I feel the way I do because I see how things are turning out in this country and the struggles my peers have to deal with in trying to find work that they would even be considered over-qualified for. Not a day goes by where I don't consider dropping from university and either getting an education from a trade school and certifications and trying that way or just looking for work and building a career without formal education on a backbone of job-experience. The biggest thing being paraded around by university faculty and staff is that "over my life time I can expect an average of $1 million more income than without the 4-year degree." Well that's lovely, but let's factor in that most degrees are NOT attainable in 4 years or 8 semesters any more, most take at least 5 years and some 6, and at private university I pay roughly 10K a semester, that's $100k of the money I could POTENTIALLY earn I'm already out, ASSUMING I payed cash. Let's talk interest on that loan for 100K for tuition and books and see where we're at then, it keeps getting uglier.

It's not that I (or my many other peers, either) think that higher education and intelligence in general are bad or not worthwhile, it's just that every day the trades are looking like more lucrative ways to make an honest living. People will always need craftsman and tradesmen. People will NOT always need talking heads and "pundits" on the news networks. I wait impatiently for the day when we lose so many of those talking heads and get serious about DOING things instead of TALKING about doing them.


It's quite a leap of a statement to say that any wealth has been accrued due to ruthlessness, but it would be ignorant to say that most of the largest and most influential entities in this world aren't kept going and strong by motivational forces like greed. It's hard to have faith in high-ranking people when it's pretty obvious every one of them has some sort of personal interest and agenda of their own.

[dohc324ci]

You know, you made lots of conclusions here, none of which are true. Not one single statement (debatable). Er, run-on paragraph. (funny, I didn't know you were grading me?) I'll play whats the prize?

You might win the "leaping before you learn" prize.
Ok, I'll bite. Please teach me, and give me insight? I'm open for this dialog if your up to it.

Keep trying to define someone you know nothing about. It'll work. Just get 10,000 monkeys and infinite time. I'm pullin' for ya. (Funny) Ok, I got it...lets have more dialog and maybe we'll get their.

Ok let's focus and dont try the ole tried and true redirecting of topics (red herring)? This is fun though.

[FordNut]

I thought the liberals were the ones who wanted censorship.

Are you a liberal?

Don't insult me.

[Phrog_gunner]

Actually it's called "generalization". This thread can't survive without them.

I appreciate your help and although I'm no wordologist, I'm pretty sure I know what I meant to say.

[dohc324ci]

Actually it's called "generalization". This thread can't survive without them.


Hey Brute that's a good one. Threads like this pretty much need to be but it does give one an opportunity to vent and freely speak on our position without worrying about repercussions. I can only have open discussions like this with people I know and respect. Politics and Religion are two topics I normally stay away from because folks have deep emotional positions on both.

[dohc324ci]

duhtroll "Though I do have to admit the screwing the teenagers is a nice perk!"

I know your trying to be funny/witty but really the internet is a "correspondance" that can be tracked and traced back to you? Be careful. Someone can take it the wrong way and we are a very litigious country.

The moderators have the IP address to your computer. If you are a teacher, PC is something you should be familiar with.

[Phrog_gunner]

But keep assuming you know me.

So it's ok for you to assume you know everyone who is rich in the country and/or their families enough to know they made their money by screwing people over, but it's not ok when someone does it to you?

[justbob]

Hey Justbob,

I dont think your narrow; I just dont appreciate the fact that alot of the unions has so much influence on how its members should think and vote... But dont focus on just that part of my position.

There are many benefits to unions...granted...but when the power sways the other way then the system cannot realistically sustain it we have to adapt.

Auto unions for example; the Japanese are building cars and dont have unions yet put out quality products? NEMI plant in Fremont was a GM run plant and was putting out piss poor products and closed the plant Toyota re opened the plant and brought in the methods/process with the same workforce and no union and put out quality products? I am not going to put out blanket statement that all unions are bad but somewhere there we have to have some sort of balance. I do think unions do have a tremendous impact on organizations and how we compete globally right? That's were I differ from the perspective of other; each corporation's needs are different; each industry is different its not a one shoe fit all solution. Its a case by case company by company industry by industry...

Ok, I am not trying to put anyone person in anyone category just trying to make my argument...and if I offended you I apologize was not my intent. I think this is good dialog to see both sides of the argument....you have yours I have mine and maybe along the we could understand this whole debacle in Washington a little better gain perspective..what I've learned is not to make it personal because emotions get involved and irrational thinking takes over. An open honest debate is healthy...

Cheers!
I agree debates are healthy, but on the other hand they hurt relationships and bring out the ugly in many people. This is something that I usually stay far away from. I will be the first here to admit that I rarely watch the news and don't follow politics, therefore I usually do not have facts to back my claims.

You are 100% correct that some unions give themselves bad names, I won't argue that.

The mentality that most have is that unions take many breaks, are lazy, and overpaid. I myself thought the same untill I joined mine. What a wake up call! For one the only breaks we get are the ones that are mandated by Federal laws (if your boss lets you take it). Lazy? I've never worked so hard or fast in my life, being reminded that there are 500 other guys that would crush your toes in a heart beat to have your job. Overpaid? You know what? It is a very common thing for a union shop to get winning bid on a house or commercial project. Non union companies charge the EXACT same price as we do, but pay their guys a lot less. So would you rather have a craftsman who was trained right from a two inch thick code book do the work in your house, or someone who only got their training from some other guy in the field? When we go to take our test to become Journeymen, it is apparent just who is who, those of us who pass, and those of us who never stood a chance.

Sorry, I don't mean to be long winded, it is just a touchy subject for me. I get a kick out of seeing people at regular jobs actually walking from desk to desk, or aisle to aisle whatever it may be, or texting. Where I work we run, and we are told that we work by the minute NOT the hour.

Now on the voting thing, your right on the money. We are told who the union endorses and why, however thats where they leave it. It is truly up to you to decide of course. They only thing they care about are candidates who are union strong or they look deeper into it and pick someone who might be trying to pass bills that will benefit us, and that is all.

Now my brother in law is a union electrician and they are not as easy going. They pretty much demand that you vote for "their" guy and don't shop at this place because they won't use union workers to do their addition, ETC....... So I have seen it both ways.

:beer:

[Mr. Man]

:popcorn::popcorn:

[dohc324ci]

:popcorn::popcorn:
Come and join the fun! Its really a polarizing thread and I am glad its over the internet...lol

[SC Cheesehead]

You asked a question, and then answered it for me.

Twice, and that makes three times you have now tried to speak for me - there are at least three statements in this last post of yours you are trying to make it seem like I believe.

I didn't say money was evil, either. Keep throwing things up there that make your argument stick. But as I said earlier, it is easier to argue against yourself, so I won't stop you.

So if I have to deflect, it is to all the accusations being made of me. Keep spouting your philosophy as if I or this discussion have anything to do with it.

And does it really matter what my answer is? You've decided what you've decided - no point in trying to convince you.

Troll, you're a hoot.

You made a statement, all I've asked you to do is clarify:


Education and ability have never equaled money in this country, and the notion that they do is a myth.

Unless by ability you mean the ability to screw others, because that is how every single rich person in the history of rich people (outside of lottery winners) made their dough. Either they did it, or someone up their family tree did.

What constitutes rich?

[Phrog_gunner]

So would you rather have a craftsman who was trained right from a two inch thick code book do the work in your house, or someone who only got their training from some other guy in the field? :beer:

Don't be modest justbob your code book is bigger than that. You can check my pipes anytime. ;)

[duhtroll]

Speak for yourself. I am not the one who posted an entire paragraph of fallacies based upon what I thought I knew about you.

So yeah, I'm redirecting. Away from the crap. It seems I am forced to do that a lot in this thread when people make assumptions about what they think they know.


(Funny) Ok, I got it...lets have more dialog and maybe we'll get their.

Ok let's focus and dont try the ole tried and true redirecting of topics (red herring)? This is fun though.

[duhtroll]

First of all, I know more about school contracts and discipline than anyone here will ever know. I volunteer more hours for this exact purpose (educating teachers about what will get them in trouble) than even I can count.

My superintendent would laugh at the outrageous accusation made at me (twice, BTW) and not do a thing about my reply.

Why? Because I do not need a union to keep my job. I'm good at what I do and my kids respect me. So if people on here are going to joke about me having sex with kids, it isn't going to bother me. It seems the only real criticisms of me on here are things people made up anyway.

Well, that and it is very liberating to not care at all what anyone on here thinks. It is a car board -- yet people keep trying to talk religion and politics as if it ever mattered to anyone.

I find that hilarious. I avoid over 90% of these "discussions" (usually anti-liberal rants with no facts involved) but every now and then I like to stir the pot.

It is entertaining to me to see people get all bent out of shape over what someone they don't know and will never meet said in an off topic forum on a car board.

Cheers!


duhtroll "Though I do have to admit the screwing the teenagers is a nice perk!"

I know your trying to be funny/witty but really the internet is a "correspondance" that can be tracked and traced back to you? Be careful. Someone can take it the wrong way and we are a very litigious country.

The moderators have the IP address to your computer. If you are a teacher, PC is something you should be familiar with.

[duhtroll]

There is overwhelming evidence of people in power and high levels of wealth and scandals as to how they got there if not corruption.

Or do you deny that?

Now, is there any such factual information about me?

My assertion is that the generalized belief that all these "titans of industry" earned every dollar is faulty. Their predecessors might have, but anymore it is who you can bilk and for how much.

Find some scandals about me and I will let you have the point.

Good luck.


So it's ok for you to assume you know everyone who is rich in the country and/or their families enough to know they made their money by screwing people over, but it's not ok when someone does it to you?

[duhtroll]

I consider myself rich. Others probably don't.

But to clarify, I am not talking about simply "rich".

I am talking about wealth. Hundreds of millions. The type that will not go away if a bad deal happens to be made once in a while.

I find it interesting that you want an exact figure. Do you want a spreadsheet delineated by income per month? Per hour?

Does it matter?

Here's a good example - Elena Ford. Does she deserve what she has for what she herself has done?

Do I care? No. I still buy Fords. But the point is valid.

Troll, you're a hoot.

You made a statement, all I've asked you to do is clarify:



What constitutes rich?

[SC Cheesehead]

I consider myself rich. Others probably don't.

But to clarify, I am not talking about simply "rich".

I am talking about wealth. Hundreds of millions. The type that will not go away if a bad deal happens to be made once in a while.

I find it interesting that you want an exact figure. Do you want a spreadsheet delineated by income per month? Per hour?

Does it matter?

Here's a good example - Elena Ford. Does she deserve what she has for what she herself has done?

Do I care? No. I still buy Fords. But the point is valid.


No, an exact figure isn't ncessary, but yes, definition in some quantity is necessary if we want to have any sort of substantive dialog. "Hundreds of millions" quantifies, thank you.

Elena Ford, man you picked one tough example to argue against...;)

Alternatively, consider Andrew Carnagie. Arguably he built his fortune on "the backs of his workers," but he was virtually penniless when he died, giving it all to philanthopic causes.

My real issue relates to your original statement was generalization:

"Unless by ability you mean the ability to screw others, because that is how every single rich person in the history of rich people (outside of lottery winners) made their dough. Either they did it, or someone up their family tree did."

[duhtroll]

When you have that amount of money, no matter whom, there are very large skeletons in even larger (carpeted, walk in) closets. Nepotism, buddy systems, back room deals, illegal activities skirting laws and then bribes to authorities - of course plenty more. I will stand by my use of the word "every" mainly because it is so difficult to not be associated with someone working on your behalf who is a crook. (at that level of wealth)

It is very difficult to find someone today who has that much money and a clean record, even discounting frivolous lawsuits. Nobody is clean, and when they are that wealthy there is some dirty money there, period.

Look at our current prez - he made a point to stand on legality and morals, clean money -- and then it was found he knew some people who had tarnished that. No way to avoid it today, because there are too many dirtbags out there.

Everyone knows one (or several), even if they are unaware of their activities.


No, an exact figure isn't ncessary, but yes, definition in some quantity is necessary if we want to have any sort of substantive dialog. "Hundreds of millions" quantifies, thank you.

Elena Ford, man you picked one tough example to argue against...;)

Alternatively, consider Andrew Carnagie. Arguably he built his fortune on "the backs of his workers," but he was virtually penniless when he died, giving it all to philanthopic causes.

My real issue relates to your original statement was generalization:

"Unless by ability you mean the ability to screw others, because that is how every single rich person in the history of rich people (outside of lottery winners) made their dough. Either they did it, or someone up their family tree did."

[dohc324ci]

First of all, I know more about school contracts and discipline than anyone here will ever know. I volunteer more hours for this exact purpose (educating teachers about what will get them in trouble) than even I can count.

I assume you are a highly educated man that is astute, articulate and your colleges and students think highly of you. I won’t debate that. I think that is great. I am just debating your position “that CEOs” are evil. Now yes allot of CEOs are but allot are not is all I am saying. For example there have been multiple cases in my home school district where teachers were caught with students in separate cases. So should I now say all teachers are despicable and evil? No, people are free to make their own choices no matter what field they are in (CEOs, Politicians, and Teachers).
My superintendent would laugh at the outrageous accusation made at me (twice, BTW) and not do a thing about my reply.
I think it goes both ways though, I too have worked in school districts and dealt with Superintendents/Principles/Administrators/Teachers etc. and seen firsthand not on boards /threads/Fox News/talk radio. Now all school districts are not the same, got that but I’ve worked as a consultant with multiple districts in my region and the union is a “beast”.

Why? Because I do not need a union to keep my job. I'm good at what I do and my kids respect me. So if people on here are going to joke about me having sex with kids, it isn't going to bother me. It seems the only real criticisms of me on here are things people made up anyway.

I think that is great to hear your performance speaks for itself and I can respect that; I wish all were like you. What I am speaking of is everything posted here on these boards “can be taken out of context” that’s all. The forum moderators have your email address and can track to your PC IP address (wherever you are at). It goes for every email, every alternative media (web 2.0) ie facebook, twitter, myspace etc. Just be careful is all I am saying. Remember you represent a school, a district and a county.

Well, that and it is very liberating to not care at all what anyone on here thinks. It is a car board -- yet people keep trying to talk religion and politics as if it ever mattered to anyone. I agree.

I am the same way; sometimes it is an opportunity to vent…I think that’s ok so long it doesn’t get personal. Getting to this point is the hardest part. There is a method to my madness I guess. Sometimes interjecting polarizing things will get a rise out of someone but then I can see where they are at so to speak; then formulate a perspective in which I can dialog. If that makes any sense….lol (don’t grade me with the…)

I find that hilarious. I avoid over 90% of these "discussions" (usually anti-liberal rants with no facts involved) but every now and then I like to stir the pot.

Both positions do so don’t you think?

It is entertaining to me to see people get all bent out of shape over what someone they don't know and will never meet said in an off topic forum on a car board.

This argument goes in both ways. But yes, it’s good to exercise the little brain on these topics, I think of it as a test run for real face to face conversations that may/will happen…lol (better not be grading me)

OK Bud, lets chat again sometime this is good dialog. Cheers!

[mrjones]

I'm always torn when I run across these types of threads on my favorite car board.

Do I start at the beginning and try to wade through the whole mess, or just go to the last page and see how high the flames are flickering?

[duhtroll]

The forum moderators have your email address and can track to your PC IP address (wherever you are at).

I have not posted anything that would get me into any kind of trouble, as in the same thread everyone involved (except the accuser, though I could be wrong) has referred to the whole incident as a joke.

And I posted that from home. There have been several rulings recently that a school district cannot govern what a teacher does on their own computer on their own time. For example, right now I am on a school computer, but last night I was on my own PC.

There are many cases I could cite - like a district that wanted to fire a teacher under the morality clause for working as a bikini model - not nude, just bikinis. In most cases the issue has nothing to do with "bikinis" and everything to do with a school board trying to throw its weight around.

It will cost this district at least two attorneys and several thousand dollars to fire someone who was actually guilty, nevermind someone like myself who has done nothing wrong.

That is hard to answer for to the taxpayers (pouring money down a rat hole) for something as trivial as this.


It goes for every email, every alternative media (web 2.0) ie facebook, twitter, myspace etc. Just be careful is all I am saying. Remember you represent a school, a district and a county. [/B]

First of all, no, I don't. I have never mentioned what school I work for and I could be lying for all anyone here knows. I didn't even mention that I was a teacher until my accuser did. The only people who have my real name are the moderators, and I trust they will not be releasing my contact information on a public board without my consent (or let anyone else do it).

When I post here I am an individual and I know there are laws to protect my right to speech as an individual.

I do not use facebook, twitter, etc. because I think social networking is the height of laziness and narcissism (and stalking/ADHD mixed together) and takes time away from personal networking. I will never be on any of those sites.



[B]Both positions do so don’t you think?

No. I don't. I think this board is slanted heavily in favor of conservative or libertarian views. At least if you were to go count posts and threads, I think you would be surprised.

I also think the "liberals" on this board, who are few in comparison, rarely if ever start political threads. They do respond sometimes to liberal bashing threads, but as I said "we" tend to ignore most things.

I've been here a long time. The complaints come weighted from one side, even when they were in power.

On the plus side, the moderators seem to be willing to let "the other" side speak once in a while.

And for the record, I vote conservative on as many issues as I vote liberal.

I'm not pro-liberal. I am anti-BS.

[dohc324ci]

I have not posted anything that would get me into any kind of trouble, as in the same thread everyone involved (except the accuser, though I could be wrong) has referred to the whole incident as a joke.

And I posted that from home. There have been several rulings recently that a school district cannot govern what a teacher does on their own computer on their own time. For example, right now I am on a school computer, but last night I was on my own PC.

There are many cases I could cite - like a district that wanted to fire a teacher under the morality clause for working as a bikini model - not nude, just bikinis. In most cases the issue has nothing to do with "bikinis" and everything to do with a school board trying to throw its weight around.

It will cost this district at least two attorneys and several thousand dollars to fire someone who was actually guilty, nevermind someone like myself who has done nothing wrong.

That is hard to answer for to the taxpayers (pouring money down a rat hole) for something as trivial as this.



First of all, no, I don't. I have never mentioned what school I work for and I could be lying for all anyone here knows. I didn't even mention that I was a teacher until my accuser did. The only people who have my real name are the moderators, and I trust they will not be releasing my contact information on a public board without my consent (or let anyone else do it).

When I post here I am an individual and I know there are laws to protect my right to speech as an individual.

I do not use facebook, twitter, etc. because I think social networking is the height of laziness and narcissism (and stalking/ADHD mixed together) and takes time away from personal networking. I will never be on any of those sites.



No. I don't. I think this board is slanted heavily in favor of conservative or libertarian views. At least if you were to go count posts and threads, I think you would be surprised.

I also think the "liberals" on this board, who are few in comparison, rarely if ever start political threads. They do respond sometimes to liberal bashing threads, but as I said "we" tend to ignore most things.

I've been here a long time. The complaints come weighted from one side, even when they were in power.

On the plus side, the moderators seem to be willing to let "the other" side speak once in a while.

And for the record, I vote conservative on as many issues as I vote liberal.

I'm not pro-liberal. I am anti-BS.

Fair enough.