Guns, Guns, Guns

[Petrograde]

Originally posted by Ross
I've never shot a civilian 50BMG, but I shot the military ones full auto a lot in the Army. What a sweet tool!! Still great after many decades of faithful service.

you mean this?

[TAF]

Can that be grill-mounted? :lol:

Would have been useful on that 18-wheeler that ran me off the road :uzi:

[Petrograde]

I don't know if there's enough clearance Todd, but, ... I have an idea... get a sun roof and have it roof mounted!

BTW- you can own one of these(full auto!) for a measly $17,500 and a Class 3 weapons permit.

[martyo]

Originally posted by Petrograde
I don't know if there's enough clearance Todd, but, ... I have an idea... get a sun roof and have it roof mounted!

BTW- you can own one of these(full auto!) for a measly $17,500 and a Class 3 weapons permit.

They are standard issue here in New York.

[Petrograde]

Anyone ever fire one of these? I'm smiling in the picture because I haven't fired it yet! :lol: man! that thing hurts! you could do a hell of alot of damage to someone just by throwing one of the bullets at them!!

[TAF]

Notes to self:
Don't pull out in front of Tom at the next gathering....
Tell him his car looks GREAT!
Let him win in the quarter mile...
Keep Tom as a friend...NOT an enemy...

[Fourth Horseman]

Those Desert Eagle .50AEs are monsters. I've not fired one myself, but just the size of the gun is intimidating. Although, I have to say, as cool as it is for the gee-wiz factor, I really question its effectiveness as a tactical weapon. You'd better hit with that first round, because if you miss your enemy will be pumping a half dozen rounds in you while you fight the recoil to bring the muzzle back on target.

Oh, and let's keep our fingers off those triggers until we're on the line and ready to fire, ok? :nono: :D

[Constable]

I was just thinking the same thing!! Finger on the trigger is a BIG no-no. I love watching cop shows on T.V. and picking apart every little thing the actors do wrong. The most common: they can't keep their finger out of the trigger guard!

BTW... my off duty weapon is no match for the Desert Eagle, but it feels like one! It's a Kahr P40 Covert. Very tiny semi-auto pistol. It shoots wonderfully, but has quite a kick due to it's small size and BIG BITE.

[Fourth Horseman]

Hehe. Yup. And the way they hold the guns up by their faces, pointed up to the sky instead of in the proper ready position, pointed down with both hands on the weapon. I know it looks better for the camera to see your character with the gun in the frame with their face, but it certainly isn't correct.

I'm a bit fussy about proper handling of firearms, personally.

[Petrograde]

Originally posted by Fourth Horseman
Although, I have to say, as cool as it is for the gee-wiz factor, I really question its effectiveness as a tactical weapon.

I agree, after firing 2 full magazines I was a little shook up! I don't even know if I hit the target 10 meters away!


Originally posted by Fourth Horseman Oh, and let's keep our fingers off those triggers until we're on the line and ready to fire, ok? :nono: :D

The magazine was empty at the time. The 3 most important things to remember when handling guns: safety,safety,safety!

ps- I'm suprised no one said anything about the hammer being back! :lol: I'm might be crazy,.. but I'm not stupid. hehe!
Tom

[Fourth Horseman]

Originally posted by Petrograde
I agree, after firing 2 full magazines I was a little shook up! I don't even know if I hit the target 10 meters away!

I remember one time I was at the range firing my .40 when some guy stepped into the stall next to me and fired off a shot. I felt the air pressure blast against the side of my face and I was like "Holy schnikies! What the **** was that!?" Everybody on the line stopped shooting and looked over.

It turns out it was "only" a .44 magnum, but compared to the stuff the rest of us were shooting it was like a cannon going off. Very impressive to see, hear and feel. I can only imagine what that .50AE must have been like. You almost need a muzzle brake on that gun. :)

[CRUZTAKER]

Petro:

Nice thread...but of all people I would have assumed you would have called it 'weapons, weapons, weapons'.

Don't you remember the D.I. setting us straight?

"This is my weapon, this is my gun, this is for killing, this is for fun"

Now DROP and gimme 50 soldier!!!! :lol:

[BillyGman]

I've always wanted one of those Desert Eagles. They have one that has a gold Titanium plating. The gold color looks sharp w/the black grip. But anyway, let's keep in mind here that we're talking about the 50AE caliber which is NOTHING like the 50BMG rifle caliber of the "Ma-Duece" machine gun displayed in that pic in your first post. Just stand a 50BMG round up on a table next to a 50AE round and you'll see that there is NO comparisant. The 50BMG round is in a class all it's own. The 50BMG round produces a whopping 12,000+ ft/Lbs of energy at the muzzle! For a comparisant, the mighty 460 Weatherby produces 8,000 ft/Lbs of energy @ the muzzle. If you want to go a step up from the 50BMG, then you would have to go to the 20mm cannon which would take you out of the class of "small arms" and therefore would be illegal for you to own.;) When I shoot my single shot 50BMG rifle at the range, it's so loud that usually many of the other shooters stop what they're doing, and all gather around behind me to watch me shoot it.:P

[Papabear]

The .50 AE is a good round. I perfer my .454 Casull but I am a big revolver guy. I have had the "what was that" people when I crack off a few rounds with the .454. It's funny to me how many people have never seen the larger caliber guns. But BillyGman is right about the .50 BMG it is in a class all by itself. I have fired several .50 BMG's made by Barrett since there plant is near me. The recoil is not as bad as you would think from looking at the ammo. I would like to have one but the ammo is costly.

[BillyGman]

if you own the big 50, you have to either reload, or be prepared to spend a whole lot for the ammo. But man, are they fun to shoot! I have two of them, and one of them is the Barrett model 99. These rifles kick hard, but because of the big muzzle brakes they have, it isn't to the point where it's a painfull experience to shoot them. I can shoot 30- 40 rounds off easily w/out it leaving any black & blue marks on my shoulder the next day. It's nothing like the 10gauge side by side that I used to have. Now that was painfull to shoot!
I have a 454 Casull revolver too. That packs a lot more punch than the 50AE does. I also have a S&W snub nosed 44 magnum revolver. And that is much louder due to the 2 1/2" barrell. That thing literally throws a 6-10 ft wall of flame when you shoot it! But hey, if you can't hit the paper target, then you'll burn it anyway.................incase you haven't guessed by now, I have what's known as "Magnumitus".......

[Long Live #3]

Originally posted by Petrograde
Anyone ever fire one of these? I'm smiling in the picture because I haven't fired it yet! :lol: man! that thing hurts! you could do a hell of alot of damage to someone just by throwing one of the bullets at them!!

I have. It does hurt like hell.

[Petrograde]

Originally posted by BillyGman let's keep in mind here that we're talking about the 50AE caliber which is NOTHING like the 50BMG rifle caliber of the "Ma-Duece" machine gun displayed in that pic in your first post.

Oh yeah! I know that all to well. One of the few things I miss about the Army is firing automatic 'weapons' (there ya go Barry! :up: ) I remember putting the .50 ammo in links, sheesh! I think they're almost a pound a piece!


Originally posted by BillyGman These rifles kick hard, but because of the big muzzle brakes they have, it isn't to the point where it's a painfull experience to shoot them.

Amen Brutha! The Desert Eagle belongs to a buddy of mine. That's a hell of alot of gun for me! Now this on the other hand is right up my alley! The good 'ol "Tommy" gun! I'm gonna get one of these within the next few months. Ya know, for a .45 it has almost no recoil!

[Ross]

One of the most fun things about being an Infantry officer in a combat zone was that we burned up a lot of different ammo. I can't count how many thousands of rounds of 50 cal I put through the big gun, and how many thousands more I put through the M60 machine gun. One of my favorites, though, was the old M3 grease gun submachine gun. I often carried one of these on patrols inside the DMZ. Wish I had one now, but I really don't want to go through the hassle of getting a Class 3 license. Of all the many weapons I shot regularly in the Army, the one I liked least (hated, in fact) was that worthless toy called the M16 that out troops are still forced to carry in one configuration or the other. For an infantry battle rifle, give me a good old M14 any day.

[BlackHole]

Theres a new round for the .50 cal M2 HB or 12.7X99 NATO round
called the SLAP= Special Load Armor Piercing

The USMC was the first to use it in Solmalia it has a full metal jacket then a lead sleeve then a Dupleted Uranium core can penetrate a 3 inch thick steel plate at 300 yards.:eek: :eek:

Now thats firepower.

Now my 458 win Mag is nice it can drop a 7 ton Elephant at 150 yards and crack a small block V8 at 50 yards:D

[Fourth Horseman]

Originally posted by Ross
One of the most fun things about being an Infantry officer in a combat zone was that we burned up a lot of different ammo. I can't count how many thousands of rounds of 50 cal I put through the big gun, and how many thousands more I put through the M60 machine gun. One of my favorites, though, was the old M3 grease gun submachine gun. I often carried one of these on patrols inside the DMZ. Wish I had one now, but I really don't want to go through the hassle of getting a Class 3 license. Of all the many weapons I shot regularly in the Army, the one I liked least (hated, in fact) was that worthless toy called the M16 that out troops are still forced to carry in one configuration or the other. For an infantry battle rifle, give me a good old M14 any day.

Man, I've heard a lot of people bad mouth the Stoner design, but I never thought I'd hear somebody actually praise the grease gun and bad mouth the M-16 in the same breath.

I don't know what to say to that except I couldn't possibly disagree more. But hey, it's a free country. Feel free to shoot what you want. :)

[Ross]

Fourth, I never carried the grease gun as a battle rifle, but I really liked it in heavy vegetation for patrol use and shooting up close. It has obvious limitations, but for certain limited uses it's a really nice little tool. IMHO, of course. There are a LOT of strongly held opinions when it comes to preferences in firearms. Shoot what you trust your life to.

[Petrograde]

I never much cared for my M-16A2, it was too damn long. When I got to the 101st Airborne, they issued me an M-4A1. I absolutely loved it! My A2 jammed on me a few times, even when it was clean! Not once did my M-4 jam! I bought a Bushmaster XM-15 shorty carbine. It's the closest thing I can legally have right now. :up:

They have really worked the bugs out of the Vietnam era A1's. The latest incarnation of the venerable M-16 is the M-4 SOPMOD (special operations modified) This might be the finest utility carbine ever made. Perfect for CQB, dismount ops, or patrol. Since I was a REMF. I only pulled gate and perimeter guard with my M-4A1.

[Long Live #3]

I want one! :D

[marauder307]

Here's my favorite toy right here...and yes, that's me driving!

[marauder307]

Sorry about the size of the post! :baaa: But I just couldn't help it!

That's a Coast Guard Boston "Guardian". Yep, that's old Ma Deuce on the bow, and her little M-60 kids riding in the waist. :uzi: Can't tell ya how fast it goes, but I'll beat the MM 0-45 and keep on going at battle weight. Pair of 175-horse V-6s in the back for propulsion and it COULD take lots more HP if we wanted it to. And donuts in the water become A LOTTA ****IN' FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Pant, pant, pant..." Sorry. The doctors say my medication should kick in any time now.:baaa::lol::baaa:

If you're curious,...that's Guantanamo Bay in the background.

[merc406]

Damn that looks like fun M/307!

[Petrograde]

Sweet 307! Reminds me of flying as a door gunner! I never had good 'ol Ma Deuce, just a M-60D.

Man, that looks fun! :uzi:

Tom

[ik04]

Hey Tom,

My favorite weapon is my immaculate Garand, circa 1947.

Here are a couple of my favorite hand canons:

A Star MegaStar 40mm Auto! and an original, never-issued 1941 M1911A1!

Kevin

[martyo]

Have we finally hit upon a thread to which TAF has nothing toadd?

[TAF]

Originally posted by martyo
Have we finally hit upon a thread to which TAF has nothing toadd?

No...please see my earlier warning...uh...I mean post in this thread...


Originally posted by TAF
Notes to self:
Don't pull out in front of Tom at the next gathering....
Tell him his car looks GREAT!
Let him win in the quarter mile...
Keep Tom as a friend...NOT an enemy...

[Petrograde]

Nice hardware Kevin! :up: I love 1911's! Great gun!

You ever see one of these? ok, it's not the full auto Glock 18 like Morpheous had in the last Matrix flick. It's actually my Glock 34 with the 31 round magazine. I looooove this gun! :lol: you should see the looks I get at the range!

[ik04]

Tom,

Yup, I had a bud at Hunter AAF witha 34+30 round mag.

I have fired the 18 also. It is a surreal experience.

In the process of getting up early on my day off to watch a nonexistant TV show featuring the Marauder, I saw a shooting sports show where the fatsest shooter in the world put twelve rounds into four targets with a single six-shot revolver. Even with a reload he did it in 2.9 seconds!

He also fired eight shots into a single target in ONE second!!!

Now I'm going to have to find a local range to get out my frustrations................

Kevin

[SergntMac]

Edited by SergntMac for misunderstood content, drive on y'all.

[Bigdogjim]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Been alive 53 years now, been a gunned up cop 27 years.

Jeeze, when I came on this cop job, every cop carried two guns.

It was the mid '70s, and two gun cops were the norm in my war zone, ask anyone who worked there. The "hay-day" of wheel guns, eh?

I did my early years in my local war zone, saw some action, and earned the honor of carrying 9 of my buds to their graves in those years. Real close buds too. Honorable men, but not an honored task.

I came back to my war zone later with stripes, and just in time to buy 63 headstones 'n grave markers for all the heroes we all forgot about, men who died in the line of duty for us all, long before we got here. This was truly an honor. Guns...Yeah. I get 'em, and I got some.


Y'all know what gets me hard today?

I see something wrong on the pavement and I dial up 911 on my cell phone. Sometimes it's * something, depending on where I'm sitting when I dial, but always, and within moments, the local kiddies arrive on the scene, and with all their new toys.

And because of me and my call, they got the most recent and educated 411 they could ask for, and from a trained observer.

And...They all get to go home to Mama, their kiddies, and a hot dinner on the table because, they are not in any hospital, or tied up making any "appropriate" arrangements with a local undertaker.

That gets, and keeps me hard.

Y'all need to set these guns down.

I don't mean sell 'em, or stop enjoying 'em. Just stop thinking they are end all answers. There are better and less expensive ways to be a real American and having your own stash isn't always the right answer. Keep your guns, enjoy them. Shoot 'em, clean 'em and carry 'em, and safely too.

Just agree to reach for the right tool when it's time to be an American, K?

Shoot...Think I just shot myself in the foot here...

Dayum, why me?


Finally some thing on this thread I can relate to.

Well said my friend.:)

[Fourth Horseman]

Originally posted by Petrograde You ever see one of these? ok, it's not the full auto Glock 18 like Morpheous had in the last Matrix flick. It's actually my Glock 34 with the 31 round magazine. I looooove this gun! :lol: you should see the looks I get at the range!

Right on, Petro. I'm a happy Glock model 19 (9mm compact) and 22 (.40 S&W full frame) owner. Glock makes some really fine pistols. Love mine.

Mac: never fired any of my weapons in anger, and never plan on it. Given the chance to fight or flee, if the option is open to me I plan to flee. I keep my guns because I enjoy the technology and I really enjoy going target shooting with my friends. When we go out we always put safety first, and we even clean up after ourselves when we're done: we never leave fragments laying around of things we were shooting at (soda cans, bottles of water, etc.) and we pick up every single piece of brass. :)

[BillyGman]

responsibility issue of firearm ownership, so let me state here that as for me, guns are a hobby, and they're primarily for target shooting(that is, the guns that I have). I'm a strong supporter of the Second Ammendment, because the Bill of Rights is the greatest thing that sets our country apart from every other nation on the face of the earth.The first step of any government that ends up becoming a Tyrant, is to disarm it's Law abiding citizens. But I'm not one to ever be looking forward to a shoot out, or to have to draw one of my pistols at all in public except when I'm target shooting at the range. Infact even though I view my right to carry a concealed handgun in my home state important, I'm not in the habit of doing so since I usually don't see a great need for it at the places I go to, nor the situations that I allow myself to get into. When it comes to avoiding becoming a victim of crime, usually prevention will go further than making a last stand w/a handgun. And that's not to say that I'm against anyone carrying. Far from it. But everyone has to keep themselves in check so that they remain responsible gun owners, as well as responsible citizens. There are far too many gun owners who give the rest of us a bad name, and who hurt our cause because of their irresponsible handling of firearms.

[RCSignals]

Safe Stuff (http://www.a1freesoundeffects.com/weapons.html)

[martyo]

Originally posted by TAF
No...please see my earlier warning...uh...I mean post in this thread...

D'oh!

[Ross]

At the risk of starting a flame war on this subject, which is NOT my intention, I have to respectfully disagree with you. No one in this thread said that they felt like they were better Americans because they owned and enjoyed their guns. Many of us have carried guns overseas where people would have been happy to take our lives, and we grew especially fond of the weapons we carried and which kept us alive. I agree that there are some irresponsible people out there who measure their manhood by the guns they own. I saw nothing like that in any of these posts.
What I saw was nice folks whom we already know and like expressing their opinions and enthusiasm for a certain topic.

Sarge said: " There are better and less expensive ways to be a real American."
Pardon me, but as one who has taken fire for this country, I don't need lessons on how to be a real American.

Sarge said: " Just agree to reach for the right tool when it's time to be an American, K?"
The time to be an American is everyday, IMHO. That is why I have NEVER failed to vote in any election since I became old enough. That is why I pay my taxes, all of them, no matter how oppressive or stupid I believe them to be. That is why I have never, even in bad times, taken a penny in welfare from working people's pockets. To me, those are among the "right tools" of being an American. I'll bet there are many other gun owners, including those of us who posted in this thread, who could say the same things of themselves.
We do not measure our patriotism by the number or type of guns we own, but neither will we be ridiculed for the fact that we love our weapons and like to discuss them. Better Americans than any of us gave us that sacred right over 200 years ago, and I will not allow myself to be scolded for publicly making use of the rights for which they died.
Pardon me if this post seems personal, which is not my intent. I like and respect Sarge, and all of his fellow officers who put their lives on the line everyday. I mean to address the ideas expressed in Sarge's post, not to flame Sarge, or anyone with similar feelings. This is not meant personally toward Sarge, as I understand that his post was not intended personally toward any of us.

[Petrograde]

Well put Ross. I wasn't quite sure how to respond to Sarge's post. The first part I understood fully. I (and many others here, I'm sure) have lost friends in the service. Every time I hear about a helicopter being shot down or crashing my stomach turns, I wonder who I knew on that flight. I too have had to bury honorable men before their time. So I completely understood where you were coming from.

The second part I didn't understand. Like Ross said, I'm not trying to flame you here Sarge, your advice has helped me at least a dozen times. The part about being a 'real American'. What exactly do you mean? I've spent 1/3 of my life in the military, looking after the interests of this nation. I don't feel I have anything to prove as far as being a 'real American'. I am one.

I am a responsible gun owner. My weapons stay locked up. period. I don't have any kids...yet... After that, they will be double locked!

I don't think the measure of a man (or woman) is in how guns are owned. It's knowing when or when not to use them, it's in always having respect for the weapon.

[SergntMac]

It's cool, Ross, I don't feel flamed by your post. Like me, you have the right to speak your mind, which was all I was doing, K?

Neither did I have any intent to flames anyone here, and should someone feel that I have, that's a stretch. My remarks about being a good American did not mean that one who appreciates, or admires firearms in any way, was not a good American. That's a stretch too. The not so good American, IMHO, is the citizen who stands by, or, chooses to ignore circumstances they witness, and do nothing about them.

I am a lifetime NRA member. I was one of the first State of Illinois Certified Master Instructors in Special Weapons and Tactics in the mid '70s. All of my adult life has centered around firearms. I carry one every day, with a burdensome responsibility. I teach (have taught) many untrained officers and civilians how to use a firearm properly. And I take guns from the hands of criminals, sometimes dead criminals, which is fine with me.

The difference between us, Ross, is minimal, you and others here offered your lives in the protection of our flag and all it stands for. I did not serve in the military, but I here watching your home and family until you came home. While any war, or, conflict is easy to see as expensive in terms of human life, the war on crime is no less expensive, and it's fought daily in our streets Has been for over 200 years now. I'm a vet of this war.

I admire firearms as refined tools, precision instruments of phenominal performance. Competition shooting is also a part of my history, and I am in awe of how such a precision instrument can send a projectile x yards in distance, with such accuracy that optics are need to class the shot. Awesome.

However, today I am a walking contradiction, my admiration for firearms rests side by side with my disgust for the damage they cause in the wrong hands.

I flame no one here, we're all just sharing in what entertains us. However, after looking at several close-ups of the latest machinery on the streets, my thought process turned from slicks and superchargers, to high capacity magazines and .40 cal semi-autos. Again, I flame no one on this, but when you open a discussion, everyone is invited to reply, and my reply will be top heavy on this, with a reminder of the violence associated with handguns.

My apologies for any hurt feelings, but I posted what was on my mind. I will repair that, ASAP, no prtoblem.

[Ross]

Sarge, thanks for the well stated and mature reply, which is what all of us here who know you have come to expect of you. While you and I have different life experiences, as you say, we are much more alike than different. It is easy to understand your feelings, knowing that you are in a situation to see good people hurt by bad people with guns. However, as we all know, it is the bad people who do the damage, not the "bad guns".
Thanks for your prompt and understanding response, my friend.

[Fourth Horseman]

Originally posted by Ross
The time to be an American is everyday, IMHO. That is why I have NEVER failed to vote in any election since I became old enough. That is why I pay my taxes, all of them, no matter how oppressive or stupid I believe them to be. That is why I have never, even in bad times, taken a penny in welfare from working people's pockets. To me, those are among the "right tools" of being an American. I'll bet there are many other gun owners, including those of us who posted in this thread, who could say the same things of themselves.

Well said! :up:

[Petrograde]

Originally posted by SergntMac

I did not serve in the military, but I here watching your home and family until you came home. While any war, or, conflict is easy to see as expensive in terms of human life, the war on crime is no less expensive, and it's fought daily in our streets Has been for over 200 years now. I'm a vet of this war.

Amen Mac! I don't see a really big difference between the military and the police and fire fighters. The military at least gets a break from the wars from time-to-time. Police and fire fighters don't have the luxury of a long pause between conflicts. I have nothing but respect for the men and women who risk their lives daily to keep me and my family safe from crime and fire. They are no less the Patriots then our boys and girls serving overseas right now.


Originally posted by SergntMac
My apologies for any hurt feelings, but I posted what was on my mind.

Thanks for clearing it up Mac, I was a little confused. No harm, no foul. I enjoy reading your posts, sometimes when someone starts a new thread I'll say to myself, "hmm,.. I wonder what Sarge is gonna say to that!" :lol:

Tom

[MAD-3R]

Hmm High Capacity Superchargers and .40 Fual injectors?

[Ross]

Don't forget full auto nitrous injectors

[Dr Caleb]

Can't wait for my high-speed muffler bearings. I just put them on order!
:lol:

[SergntMac]

This automobile inspires passion, and it attracts owners who are likewise passionate about many othr things in life. We've seen it pop up from time to time, and we've seen it turn sour too. I am pleased we discussed this in the manner we have, I'd like this to be the customary exchange over the tendency to flame. Thanks guys.

Now, when Big Dog told me how passionate he gets about little fishies in his trucks...Well, I won't go there, it wasn't pretty.

[2003 MIB]

Interesting stuff, Gentlemen...There's usually a S/W Model 29 in my Marauder console and a S/W Model 342 on my person. I'm also a lifetime NRA member. Those things being said, I don't know if I've ever read a more polite and metered discussion on the subject. Hard thing to stay polite about because it hits people where they live and breathe.
Johnman and I had a discussion about "Bowling for Columbine" during the show at Chuck's last Saturday. He wanted to know if I thought it was an "anti-gun" movie. I don't think so, I thought it was an interesting testament of how Americans live in fear and how we respond by buying guns. There are some very interesting pieces that contrast Americans vs. Canadians. I think for a lot of people it offers a sense of control in a world they perceive as "gone crazy". I would recommend the film for both sides of the gun issue.
Logan made an astute observation that Canadians have national pride but that Americans are patriotic.
Why the pistols in the car? Why the 870 under the bed? For me, it's because guys like Sarge can't be everywhere at once- they wish they could and I wish they could but it can't happen. Do I want to shoot anyone? Nope. Do I confuse my CHL with a hunting license? Nope. In the unfortunate circumstance that I had to defend my actions to a Grand Jury would I want to explain why I had 31 rounds "at the ready" ? Nope. My .02

[Ross]

All of you are welcome to my Texas beer at the next Marauderville.

[Petrograde]

I don't know if I've ever read a more polite and metered discussion on the subject.

I agree Dan, this could've easily become a flame-fest. The fact that it didn't is a testament to the maturity of those who have posted opinions here.

Tom

[Heavy D.]

I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts, great civil discussion on the issue. However, I would not recommend Bowling for Columbine due to the incredible distortion of facts. The best analysis of this is here, IMHO:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

[Ross]

I have an employee, nice young man, who just bought his first pistol, and we were discussing choices of ammo for self defense. You think conversations can get heated between gun owners and non gun owners? Just listen to a conversation between gun owners over the choice of caliber/bullet type for self defense! It's always been a very intersting topic to me, both from an intellectual and a practical standpoint. Yeah, like I'm really intellectual!:baaa:

[2003 MIB]

That's great stuff, Scott D. !!! I wasn't aware of all the lies and distortion. I didn't mean to imply that the film will make anyone change their views or provide any answers. I still think "Bowling" worth seeing. I guess that's one "thumb's up" and one "thumb's down" from MM.net- Your home for movie reviews and free beer offers.:)

[MAD-3R]

Best for Home defence?

#9 Bird shot in 12 gague.

Heavy enough to stop someone, but not to penatrate 2 layers of drywall, and what we in the on-line gaming world refer to as PBAOE.
Point Blank Area of Effect.

[2003 MIB]

#9 Bird shot in 12 gague.

Nice choice, Phil!!!
They've recently outlawed grenades in Texas and I've been seeking another home defense option.
:)

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by Heavy D.
I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts, great civil discussion on the issue. However, I would not recommend Bowling for Columbine due to the incredible distortion of facts. The best analysis of this is here, IMHO:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

With every analysis, there is an equal and opposite analysis.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/11/15/85627/490

Remember, there is no such thing as an unbiased opinion :) I'd just like to point out, that nowhere in the film does Micheal Moore say anything bad about 'gun culture'. Micheal Moore is a member of the NRA, and as Sarge has pointed out above, a proponent of safe and responsible gun ownership.

All I can say is, don't rely on other people's opinions. Watch the film, judge for yourself.

[Ross]

Grenades have been outlawed in Texas? Why didn't somebody tell me? What am I going to do with all of mine?:confused:

[2003 MIB]

Grenades have been outlawed in Texas? Why didn't somebody tell me? What am I going to do with all of mine?

Geez, Ross- you just need to have Hemlock re-write the territorial laws of the S.A.S.S.
:D

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Ross
I have an employee, nice young man, who just bought his first pistol, and we were discussing choices of ammo for self defense. You think conversations can get heated between gun owners and non gun owners? Just listen to a conversation between gun owners over the choice of caliber/bullet type for self defense! It's always been a very intersting topic to me, both from an intellectual and a practical standpoint. Yeah, like I'm really intellectual!:baaa:

Just a few minutes ago, I tried to post a copy of my research I started back in 1989, a two year study of police ammunition and bullet wounds. Got to meet a great collection of scientist and professionals who were delighted to answer one question..."What happens when someone gets shot?" The other question that emerged, was "Is there a magic bullet?"

It's since been published and adopted by a number of law enforcement agencies across the country for use in their respective training programs. Technically speaking, it's stale today due to advancements in projectiles, gun powder, caliber and such, but the base principles have not changed.

If anyone would like a copy, drop me an e-mail at SergntMac@aol.com Remember though, any unauthorized use of this material is protected by law. I just think a few of y'all may find it interesting reading. Ummm...maybe I could upload it here, BRB...

Well, I tried that, and it didn't work, so, I deleted that effort and reposted this. If you're intrested in some real facts from the specialists, drop me a line and I'll FWD the report as a Word 2.0 document. 63 K, but any Word today should be able to open it.

[Heavy D.]

Thanks for the link, Dr. Caleb! Although the author raises some valid criticisms of Mr. Hardy's work, I still agree with Mr. Hardy's analysis - to pass this off as a documentary to me is disingenuous given the liberties Mr. Moore took.

Bias versus deception is sometimes difficult to distinguish, but given the cut and pasting that was done with the speeches my opinion is that this falls in the deception category.

Not a flame, again I appreciate the other point of view!

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by Heavy D.

Not a flame, again I appreciate the other point of view!
No flame taken Heavy D. I love a good discussion!

I see both as Mr Hardy and Mr Moore as 'playing fast and loose' with the facts. That's why I suggested watching the film. I think Mr Moore comes up with some really valid points, but feeding his own self interest at the expense of others.

I do think the the first link I provided does an equally good job of discounting Mr Hardy's analysis, so we're left at zero again. :)

See the movie. Judge for yourself.

[Bigdogjim]

Originally posted by SergntMac
This automobile inspires passion, and it attracts owners who are likewise passionate about many othr things in life. We've seen it pop up from time to time, and we've seen it turn sour too. I am pleased we discussed this in the manner we have, I'd like this to be the customary exchange over the tendency to flame. Thanks guys.

Now, when Big Dog told me how passionate he gets about little fishies in his trucks...Well, I won't go there, it wasn't pretty.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

[RCSignals]

I've seen the movie. While many people have their own interpretations, it is clearly an anti-gun, and political piece. As usual with Moore, a pro-liberal and anti conservative piece.

It really means nothing that he is a member of the NRA. Anyone can join the NRA, and often people with anti-gun ownership views have done just that, so they can say in the midst of their diatribe against guns "I belong to the NRA"

Watching Moore handle firearms in that movie should indicate to everyone just how much familiarity Moore really has with them, and what he knows on the subject of firearm handling and safety.

[merc406]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Petrograde
[B]I agree Dan, this could've easily become a flame-fest. The fact that it didn't is a testament to the maturity of those who have posted opinions here.

Tom




That and the fact that being nice is just good sence when seeing what everyone here is packing. :D :)

[BUCKWHEAT]

This is the fastest growing thread I have ever seen. Remember the line from Miss Congeniality..."This is Texas. They all carry guns!"

Good times.

[RCSignals]

http://www.arrse.co.uk/html/modules/Frontpage/images/H_2646_A.jpg


http://www.norwich.edu/about/resources/nom/brooks/gfx/winston2.gif

[tetsu]

It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need one and not have it.

For home defense, you cannot beat a couple of big dogs and a baseball bat though.

Having said that, the .458 Win Mag is one SOB to shoot with a 550gr elephant slug. It makes me a little skittish just thinking about it.

Johnny

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by tetsu
It's better to have a gun and not need it than to need one and not have it.

For home defense, you cannot beat a couple of big dogs and a baseball bat though.



.....uh, unless your intruder has a gun....

[MAD-3R]

Mosburg 500 defender with #9 birdshot. Just the sound of cycling the action will scare the hell out of any intruder.

[Ross]

All right MAD, time to discuss tactics. Personally, if it comes down to that, the first sound I want my enemy to hear is the sound of my gun being discharged. If he is armed and alert, and intent on harming me, and he hears the action of any weapon being cycled, he may very well fire toward the sound (maybe hitting you) before you can finish cycling the round and fire. I know, some people cringe at the thought of leaving a loaded weapon in the house with a round chambered. But remember, the gun is there in case the #$%^ hits the fan, and someone's very life is at stake. Under those circumstances, I want to be the first (and last) to fire. In a dark house in the middle of the night, he won't be able to see me, and when he hears me, I want it to be the last sound that he hears. A gruesome thought, but we cannot consider life and death self defense without thinking about gruesome thoughts. A debatable point, to be sure. Just something to consider.

[MAD-3R]

"Better to be a dead lion then a live Jackal, I would rather be a live lion."

If the intruder isn't looking for an encounter, I would just assume he leaves quickly and quietly. If he is expecting an encounter, the shotgun is the worst for him since odds are he will have a hand gun that requires aiming, while a shotgun is "point in that direction" No aiming, just pull the trigger and cycle.

If he does press the issue, I can get the first shot off quick, makes him nervious, and gives me time to make the secound one perfect.

My shot gun is loaded, but not chambered. I have cats... :)

As for shooting first, that has problems of it's own. If I were to and the worse he had was a flashlight, I could be in real trouble if the local constable and DA's want to "Make an example."

[merc406]

I thought if "bad guy" broke in and was in the house you could shoot him, no?

[Ross]

Yes, I understand where you're coming from MAD. And I'm certainly not on here trying to give legal advice, but from what I have seen in most states, if the guy is in your house, in the dark, even if he doesn't have a gun, he's fair game. We all have to make that decision for ourselves, knowing that there might always be some cop or prosecuter who sides with the bad guy. As far as trusting that the guy will run if you miss with the first shot, you are counting on your enemy to be sensible. If he was, he probably wouldn't be in your house in the middle of the night. Just my 2 cents. Tough calls that we each have to weigh and make for ourselves and our loved ones.

[MAD-3R]

Originally posted by merc406
I thought if "bad guy" broke in and was in the house you could shoot him, no?

I must retreat if there is a viable means to do so... :rolleyes:

Unless I am protecting someone who can't protect them selves. then they pretty much are fair game.

[Ross]

MAD, you are probably in what is called a "retreat" state, which most states are. This law says that before you can act in self defense, you must retreat from the encounter if you can do so without further endangering yourself. Texas follows this rule too. However, in all of the "retreat" states that I know of, there is an exception if you are in your own home. In that case, you may stand and defend yourself without retreating. I certainly don't know the specifics of Virginia law, but this is what all of the states that I am aware of follow. Might be worth a look.

[Dr Caleb]

I've got a 12' length of 1/4" chain, that shows signs of extreme abuse.' On one end of the chain is a clip for a dog collar, the other end is a dog house suitable for a small horse.

Beside the 'dog'house is a 3' round steel dish that has been 'broken in' using a sawsall, vice grips and an angle grinder.

Perhaps there is no dog that big around my place. Anyone is welcome to break in and find out :)

Benefits: sees and hears better than me; no need to reload; can't put it on a witness stand.

Actually, I used to have a ~180 pound (couldn't actually weigh him, if he didn't want to be weighed..) beast of a Rottie that occupied that house, but he disappeared one day. Good dog. *sniff*.

[Petrograde]

I can't wait to get a dog! A big one! I'll have to wait, I live in an apartment, too small for big dogs. There's nothing like the low growl of a pi$$ed off Rottie! I just hope it doesn't eat my cats!

[Ross]

Now, now, I'm sure my cats are a match for that big old doggie!:baaa:

[MAD-3R]

In Virginia, you can't kill to defend property. If I'm outside and see someone run to my house and throw a Maltov Cocktail at it, I can't use exceisive force to stop him. Same is if I'm in my house and I can retreat through a back door. If it is avalable I MUST take it. Only exception is to defend someone who can't defend themselves. ie Child or sleeping.

I looked long and hard at the laws when we were getting the weapons.

[Petrograde]

Your local DA also might not like it if the intruder was shot in the back. So,... make sure you get the both barrels in front of him!! :up: Be aware: if he survives, he may actually sue you and win! Aim center mass!

Tom

[Dr Caleb]

I like my idea better. Another benefit, what the dog gets, he keeps. What intruder?

[gja]

I keep a wide assortment of things that would keep the criminal mind up at nights wetting their beds and haunting their nightmares. If they break into my house I will have them BEGGING for me to call the cops.

The best thing for THEM is for me to call the police. If they threaten my family they will never be heard from again and there will just be one more mass at the bottom of the Canarsie canal, or one more lump in the landscape of the Arthur Kill flats.

I am not a tolerant man of screwing with my family, and do not suffer from the 'moment of hesitation' that some folks get when it is time to swing into action.

[SergntMac]

Illinois is a "no retreat" state, and likewise, the scope of a citizen's arrest is wider yhan that of a LEO. LEOs have to exhaust all resources, so does a citizen, but cops have more resources than citizens, yes?

In "Tennessee Vs. Gardner" (1985?) the use of deadly force in apprehending a burglar got really ripped apart by the Supreme Court. Re-defining "life" and "freedom" as physical properties, they can be seized by an LEO only after probable cause of this seizure is clearly established. No more shooting of burglars, or, stick up men in flight. Only once PC has been established, i.e. offender's "intent" and "capability" are clear, and actual "jepordy" to the citizen or LEO is present.

Got someone in your basement in the dark of night? No problem. Forward movement of the burglar towards the citizen/LEO after commands to stop fail, covers the bases.

Would be good advice though, to act shaken up, and in fear for your life, at least until the State's Attorney interviews you. I've never seen anyone charged in the circumstances, but I have seen them sued. Gun control, is hitting your target.

[tetsu]

Originally posted by BillyGman
.....uh, unless your intruder has a gun....

In CQB in my own house I'd prefer a club or machete.
If I use a machete though, a jury will frown at me. So,
I use a club.

At close ranges, reaction time really comes into play when you
are facing a highly trained adversary.

Johnny

[FordNut]

Back to the Barrett .50 BMG, I saw a nice article in this month's NRA magazine "1st Freedom". Good history info on the development of Barrett's rifles.

[Petrograde]

I gotta admit, the price for being able to reach out and touch someone is pretty high!

[Petrograde]

BTW- I don't believe the scope comes with it.

Tom

[Haggis]

But it is more dependable then AT&T and you can do it with style.

[Petrograde]

How about this for defeating that pesky intruder? For the price of a new Marauder, it can be yours!

[Petrograde]

I can hear it now:

"..and in other news, a 29 year old Texas man is being held without bail for gunning down an intruder with a military machine gun. Grand Prairie PD responded to reports of automatic gunfire coming from an apartment complex. The GPPD reported that the intruder was nearly cut in half after being shot with 200 rounds of 7.62 armor piercing rounds..."

[Haggis]

More fun..er..fire power then legally allowed :rock: :uzi:
Reminds me of my days in the Infantry.

[Petrograde]

Originally posted by Haggis
More fun..er..fire power then legally allowed :rock: :uzi:
Reminds me of my days in the Infantry.

It's legal Haggis,... providing that you have a Class 3 Weapons Permit.

I remember being the machine gunner in my squad, since I was about 140 lbs (at the time) and stood a towering 5'5" it made alot of sense to me.:rolleyes:

Tom

[Haggis]

You too, the DI in basic looked at me and said you look like you can handle this and I never let go for 4yrs. I know the about class 3, tring to explain why to the local LEO is another thing.

[the fat bastid]

after about 8 months of red tape and what not i got my firearms id card 5 days ago (no handguns, just longarms) . Today i went out and bought my very first gun. a cz 425-lux...its a .22 bolt action rifle. man, them .22 bullets are tiny!

any tips for care and feeding?

[jgc61sr2002]

A Glock 9MM is my weapon of choice. 16 good friends. He He.

[Marauderman]

Originally posted by TAF
Notes to self:
Don't pull out in front of Tom at the next gathering....
Tell him his car looks GREAT!
Let him win in the quarter mile...
Keep Tom as a friend...NOT an enemy...

That means All Tom's --don't forget!!!

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by the fat bastid
after about 8 months of red tape and what not i got my firearms id card 5 days ago (no handguns, just longarms) .

What country do you live in?

[Petrograde]

Originally posted by the fat bastid
Today i went out and bought my very first gun. a cz 425-lux...its a .22 bolt action rifle. man, them .22 bullets are tiny!

any tips for care and feeding?

I've never owned a bolt action, only semi-auto. But, I'm sure someone here can can give ya some tips!

Tom

[BillyGman]

best for target shooting since they're the most accurate. Cleaning is easy. Your owners manual will explain how to remove the bolt. W/many bolt actions there's a button that you have to press as your dragging the bolt out. But I'd recommend that you get one of those portable gun vises. When you clamp the rifle in it, it will anchor the rifle so that it's easier to push the rod and patch through. I like to use Hoppe's #9 bore solvent, but there are other good cleaners to use also.

[Ross]

Bastid, there are only a few real RULES for care and feeding of your new rifle. There are MANY personal practices and preferences which many people will offer. Listen to everything, check out what you hear, and stick with what works and what you can verify. A few suggestions:
1. While your gun is new and in good condition, buy a good brass cleaning rod. You want a soft metal rod going into your barrel so as not to damage the riflings which are one of the main sources of accuracy. A rod like this will be harder to find and more expensive, but worth it in the long run.
2. Clean your barrel from the chamber toward the muzzle, not the other way around. This way you arent pushing powder residue and other dirt into the action of the weapon. Having a cleaning table/vise as someone suggested makes this easier to do, but you can still do it without such a device.
3. Don't over-oil your weapon. Your gun needs a LIGHT coat of oil as a rust preventative, and a light lubrication on moving parts. However, too much oil will actually hold dust and dirt particles, creating a sludge that can gum up the works.
4. The most important thing, which I know you already know, but which always bears repeating is to learn and religiously practice all safety rules. This is especially true with a new weapon that you are not familiar with.
5. Join some gun rights organizations which believe in and actually fight for the rights of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms. The NRA is good, and I am a member, but there are others which are actually stronger in their advocacy. The websites for the following should be easy to find. I'll try to post some links later: Citizens Commitee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (don't need to be Jewish!), Gun Owners of America (perhaps the best).
Congratulations on your new friend. Use it regularly and become one with it, just like you do with your MM!

[UncleLar]

From my personal experience I can tell you it doesn't take much to get into serious trouble from the simple ownership of firearms. I've always admired fine firearms as precision machinery and pieces of quality craftsmanship and military weaponry for the historic factors.At one time I had a pretty nice large collection of some pretty sweet firearms. Since a very early age I've been aware of the fact that weapons can be very dangerous if mishandled or misused. My oldest sister's husband was emptying a little Beretta .22 short pistol, when I was 10 or 11, by cycling the slide with the loaded magazine in it instead of pulling the magazine and clearing the chamber and when he THOUGHT it was empty he pulled the trigger,it wasn't empty,when it fired it missed hitting me in the head by 1 FOOT! If you're going to own or even handle a firearm make sure you know how to handle it SAFELY and do it every time you touch one,the first time you don't might just be the last day of someones life. Enjoy the shooting sports,learn how to safely handle and use firearms and when to use them.

[ParkRanger]

Well, guess I better add my 2 cents.
Carried a .45 1911, riot shotgun 00 buck, m60 on jeep as MP in Saigon 69-70. Now carry H&K .45 (bigga the ho bigga the flo) alternating rounds ball/hollow point/ball/etc. Backup is SW 38 Centurian with 5 +p rounds. Third backup is a 32 Seecamp with silver tip hollow points.
House protection is SigSaur 9mm
Has anyone seen the new 50 cal SW wheel gun?

ParkRanger

Finally adding mods this January - 1yr anniversary.

:shot:

[Petrograde]

Wow! Uncle Lar!

Safety,... the first and last thing you need to learn about firearms! I was taught to always treat a weapon as if it were loaded. I will teach my kids that too as soon as they are old enough to hold one steady.

Park Ranger- I looove the H&K .45! It's a simply freakin' awesome weapon! My next pistol will be an H&K .45 Tactical.http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/e/gunsfiring.gif

Tom

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by ParkRanger
Well, guess I better add my 2 cents. Carried a .45 1911, riot shotgun 00 buck, m60 on jeep as MP in Saigon 69-70. Now carry H&K .45 (bigga the ho bigga the flo) alternating rounds ball/hollow point/ball/etc. Backup is SW 38 Centurian with 5 +p rounds. Third backup is a 32 Seecamp with silver tip hollow points.
House protection is SigSaur 9mm Has anyone seen the new 50 cal SW wheel gun?

Guess it's time to move my annual family picnic from our friendly forest preserves to a local VFW post...LOL

[Marauderer]

Originally posted by the fat bastid
after about 8 months of red tape and what not I got my firearms id card 5 days ago (no handguns, just longarms) . Today i went out and bought my very first gun. a cz 425-lux...its a .22 bolt action rifle. man, them .22 bullets are tiny!

any tips for care and feeding?

.22's are fun, just don't shoot one right after 50 rounds with a 12 gauge, you'll think it misfired :) when it goes "Plink, Plink"

Here are two of my guns:

The top one is a Russian Over and Under 12 gauge that I use for Trap Shooting at the Club. My favorite however is the Saiga 20 below. It is made by IZHMASH, the same manufacturer of the AK-47, in fact this has the same chassis and action as the AK-47 although in Semi auto form. I added a deer site and a cheapo recoil pad for comfort. This thing just plain tears em up at the trap shoot using high powered 3" shells. Feels much, much better than my 12 gauge using the cheapo, stinko 100 shells for 15.00.

You should see the old timers when I come up to the range and pull out my "Assault Style" Trap gun :) The looks and questions I get remind me of my Marauder at a convenient store!

Anyone here ever comes up the Minnesota way, I'll take you to the Minnesota Horse and Hunt Club for a Grand Ole Time!

BTW - love this thread, it shows how much diversity we have and what a cool bunch of people hang out here.

[tetsu]

Originally posted by jgc61sr2002
A Glock 9MM is my weapon of choice. 16 good friends. He He.

For a backup, in case the perp tries to hide behind a reinforced concrete wall:

S&W 500 (2600+ ft/lbs with a 400gr jacketed solid slug)

Thats triple the energy of a .44 mag 1.5x454Casull

I'll buy you a beer if you can empty a loaded cylinder in a single afternoon. :)

[2003 MIB]

I shot the S/W 500 at a gun club promotion (where they sold 9 of them at $1000.00 per unit). Too much gun for this cowboy- my palm was numb for a few hours after two rounds. First round was point of aim (S/A) but the second was 3 inches at 5 o'clock.
Yikes!

[Haggis]

And for the real pesty intruder that just will not go down.

[ParkRanger]

Originally posted by 2003 MIB
I shot the S/W 500 at a gun club promotion (where they sold 9 of them at $1000.00 per unit). Too much gun for this cowboy- my palm was numb for a few hours after two rounds. First round was point of aim (S/A) but the second was 3 inches at 5 o'clock.
Yikes!

At what distance?
Did you use a two hand grip?
How big (long) are the rounds?

PR

:coolman:

[Bigdogjim]

Originally posted by SergntMac
man-oh-man, this is one ******ed up thread...

How would have though.............

Looks like this thread will never die....................

Unless some one shoots themself in the foot................


:lol:

[SergntMac]

That's right Jim, I posted that, but deleted it a moment later.

I'm sorry about leaving you swinging in the wind, you're too quick on the read.

[Marauderer]

The Lounge?????

Defined as:

"The Lounge
All OFF-TOPIC, marauder unrelated posts must go here."

MAC, I just had a quick read myself and was writing a response to your very last post before you went back and changed it :) That was probably a good call.

[Ross]

No one is complaining that the "GTO's In Transit" thread is still going stong...

[Fourth Horseman]

Originally posted by Haggis
And for the real pesty intruder that just will not go down.

Is that a mix of Hellfire and TOW missiles on that Cobra? Wow. Do they do that often? Guess that's sorta like the albino Eagles packing both AIM-7s and AIM-120s, eh?

[Haggis]

Someone asked earlier for a picture to compare the S&W 500 rnd to a .44 mag. Well here it is.

[2003 MIB]

At what distance?
15 yards

Did you use a two hand grip?
God yes!!- You'd need to be very large to shoot off hand.
How big (long) are the rounds?
Haggis posted a picture (thanks!). I do know that they sell for about $2.15 a round.

I've been punished worse by a .44 mag with wooden grips and my Sc/Ti Smiith is no picnic with p+. If you've got the scratch, it's an interesting weapon.

[tetsu]

Originally posted by Bigdogjim
How would have though.............

Looks like this thread will never die....................

Unless some one shoots themself in the foot................


:lol:

As long as you dont shoot yourself in the foot with THIS!

(10.5" barrel fully automatic .458 SOCOM assault rifle)

For reference: a .458 SOCOM flies at 2000 fps with over 3000ft/lbs.

[JamesHecker]

I've got a .454 Casull and it's no slouch, but it looks like a piker next to that .500SW round!

I've been enjoying this thread. I hope it continues.

[BillyGman]

subject(uh, whatever it is:D ) but since we're talking about guns in general, I want to pose a question here that perhaps some of you gun nuts can answer. Ever since I saw that second Terminator Movie back in the 90's, I've always wanted to own a lever action shotgun (like the one that Arnold had in that movie).
Do any of you guys know if there's still any company that makes a lever action shotgun? (preferably a 12g).

[Bigdogjim]

Originally posted by Ross
No one is complaining that the "GTO's In Transit" thread is still going strong...


Maybe so but hell its at least a car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :)

[woaface]

I don't know crap about guns. But I figure gun control isn't so great since if the bad guys know they won't get a bullet in their ass, they're not exactly worried about getting a bullet in their ass.

But my step sister knows a cop somewhere around Relaigh that said in 20 years of investigating crime in the area he has seen places broken into with guns, security systems and all that...but never one with a dog. So we went ahead and bought a 90 pound half white German Shepard: )

[Bigdogjim]

Gun control is hitting the target with one shot :)

[jaywish]

Well I just thought I'd weigh in on the side of responsible gun ownership.

I like to shoot & am overdue. Anybody interested? I need to go to Connecticut as I have 223 & don't know anyplace local.

Jay