Interesting stuff...

[SergntMac]

Check this out?

http://www.modulardepot.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=47

[jgc61sr2002]

Sarge - Cool set up and it includes one chip. Not to shabby and price for that equipment seems reasonable. IMO.

[BillyGman]

very curious about is that it says "the elimination of Torque retard". What is "Torque retard"? That sounds like part of the "Torque management system" of the computer that I've heard about. I wonder if by eliminating that, our cars would respond better to rear end gear changes. I also wonder why Ford uses "Torque retard" in the first place, and if it would be safe to eliminate it.

[RCSignals]

It will eventually also be available with a hand held tuner option. Instead of burning a chip, you download to the tuner, then use it to flash your EEC

[SouLRioT]

How long till it goes straight from the laptop to the car?

[Slowpoke]

very nice!

[Petrograde]

What RC Signals said! I thinking of making a trip to Florida so DR can reflash my EEC....

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by RCSignals
It will eventually also be available with a hand held tuner option. Instead of burning a chip, you download to the tuner, then use it to flash your EEC
You are correct, RC, but this is also what we may expect from Superchips, now that they have completed some corporate changes.

The hand held tuner is entry level, intended for the lone user who wants to "adjust" his own performance settings, and do his own diagnostics.

The package I've linked us to here, is intended for the more serious builder/racer who is racing every opportunity he/she gets, perhaps following a specific racing circut, and needs to make changes on a regular basis to accomodate changes in weather, altitude, and so on.

There will be more offerings from Superchips soon, up to and including an opportunity for anyone to buy all the necessary hardware and license all the necessary software to start his own supertuning business franchise. I heard this from the "the man's mouth," Jerry. Right now, I'd guess this level to price in around 4-5K, but it's a sweet opportunity for the business minded semi-pro.

BTW, I should mention that the notebook computer y'all see in this link is not included in the kit. You have to supply that yourself. And, I should add as well that this software is safe, and "goof proof." One cannot carelessly, accidentally, or, intentionally exceed known and tested parameters that may threaten your powertrain, or, the PCM.


Originally posted by SouLRioT
How long till it goes straight from the laptop to the car?
Jerry can do this now, but I have no idea when this feature will be available to us from Superchips. I know it is possible, I've seen it done. I don't know when it will be released to the public, or, if it will be released at all.

IMHO...To us, this a performance thing, a tool we can use. For Superchips and Jerry, it's a business thing, and that specific technology may remain scarce for awhile, in favor of the good business of clearing a warehouse of hand-held tools. I'll speculate no further this, this is just IMHO.

However, if we can go from a handheld programmer directly to the PCM through the OBDII port as RC points out, there is no technology bend or bar that prevents us from programming directly from a notebook computer. It's a matter of software, and I am sure all things will come in time.

If someone were really smart here, they would start hunting up used/lease turn-in notebook computers with a minimum of 1.0 ghz processors, 512k RAM and 30gig HDs, running 98SE/ME or XP software for a reasonable price. That's the business-minded dude...IMHO.

[MMM2003]

Linky Link (http://www.davisnet.com/drive/products/carchip_products.asp)

What do you guys think? Don't mean to hijack Sarge's thread, but I figured this might be of interest to some if you do your own programming, you could use one of the those "black boxes" to record and see how your car behaves under different circumstances (temps, humidity, gas,...).

Just saw that in my latest PCMAG. Could be useful, if you really want to know everything about how your "performs".

[Petrograde]

So,.. basically,.. it's like a "black box" for cars?... basically, recording signifigant event for automoblles?

Drunk Tom...

PS- woo-hoo! thaks for the spell check Logan!

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by MMM2003
What do you guys think? Don't mean to hijack Sarge's thread, but I figured this might be of interest to some if you do your own programming, you could use one of the those "black boxes" to record and see how your car behaves under different circumstances (temps, humidity, gas,...). Just saw that in my latest PCMAG. Could be useful, if you really want to know everything about how your "performs".
No hijack going on here, MMM2003 (corrected), this is good stuff.

I've been using this Davis CarChip all along, and I think this is a good place to begin getting more involved with your MM. It's also a perfect add-on for any fleet managers.

This device is easy to use, and it "sees" a lot of what is important for us to know as we drive our MMs into the sunset.

Step one of any attempt to control your MM electronically, is to know what it's doing right now. This is a winning mod...IMHO.

[Petrograde]

Originally posted by SergntMac
No hijack going on here, Mary, this is good stuff.



uhh,,. Sarge?


no flame intended BUT!.......

MMM2003, insn't Mary.

[SergntMac]

Oh, damn...Apologies to all, eh? Please?

S**t...I hate when this happens...

[SergntMac]

Fixed.

[Petrograde]

Hey Sarge,.. Like I said,.. No flame invloved here! I can't speak for Mary,.. but, I'd imagine she's laughing about this,.. like I did,.. However,.. as a woman she reserves the right NOT to be as forgiving! :lol:

[Petrograde]

This place would a quite emptier without ya Sarge! I guess that even you are human! :LOL:

$h!t happens.....

Tom

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by Petrograde
So,.. basically,.. it's like a "black box" for cars?... basically, recording signifigant event for automoblles?

Here's something scary...from the online owner's manual:

Data Recording
Computers in your vehicle are capable of recording detailed data
potentially including but not limited to information such as:
* the use of restraint systems including seat belts by the driver and passengers,
* information about the performance of various systems and modules in the vehicle, and
* information related to engine, throttle, steering, brake or other system status.

Any of this information could potentially including information regarding how the driver operates the vehicle potentially including but not limited to information regarding vehicle speed, brake or accelerator application or steering input. This information may be stored during regular operation or in a crash or near crash event.

This stored information may be read out and used by:
* Ford Motor Company.
* service and repair facilities.
* law enforcement or government agencies.
* others who may assert a right or obtain your consent to know such information.

[SergntMac]

Yep, it's all true. With my Davis CarChip, I can set a threshold for a hard brake event, and when I cross that threshold, it takes a snapshot of the vehicle's operation for the last 20 seconds before the brake. This is called an accident file and it can be very useful, or very damaging, depending on what you were up to before the brake. It's got a lot of other neat features too, but this is one of them. All this stuff is in your PCM, BTW, which is why it's good to disconnect the battery ever once in a while, clear out the memory and start fresh.

[BigMerc]

I'm looking at a bypass altogether. I'm damned if I'll let someone look at things in MY car, I believe (not confirmed) the box is under the pass side seat. I have to get with a ford guy to bypass the box So accident happens do you investigation the OLD way, and the Insurance company can't do a check up on you. BIG BROTHER go someplace else.

[Marauderer]

We have had a couple of threads on this so far in anticipation of this package over the last 6 weeks or so. The first version out is the chip version. The next one on the list is the Flasher version which is the exact same thing except that you use your laptop to make adjustments and then use the flasher to flash your PCM just like the pros. I am number three on that waiting list! If you want to make it harder to detect, wait for the flasher version and don't bother with the chip.

Funny thing is they were going to release the flasher version first, then delayed it a bit so now their releases are reversed (chip first, flasher second). Later they plan on making data logging available as well!

PS - Don't confuse the flasher version with less features. In that respect they are offering two levels; racer and pro racer(chip and flasher versions). The racer is a scaled down unit for NA cars and limited functionality. The Pro racer is the same as Sarge's link except that it uses a flasher instead of a chip.


Quoted from their site -

SCT Racer Package - $449

Allows shifting of timing and fuel curves
Adjust Speed limiters
Adjust Rev Limiters
Adjust axle ratio to correct speedometer after gear change
Adjust for tire diameter changes
Increse increase line pressure for greatly improved shifting (autos)


SCT Pro Racer Package - $795
This is the version we have been discussing.
It allows full control over all available parameters.
This is the most powerful EEC tuning tool ever placed in the hand of an individual.


Initially the Pro Racer Package (Flash verison) will be available followed by the other versions. Expect to see the Pro Racer Package shipping in 10 days or so.

[TAF]

Originally posted by BillyGman
very curious about is that it says "the elimination of Torque retard". What is "Torque retard"?


That's just my nickname for Marty... :lol::lol::lol:

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by BillyGman
very curious about is that it says "the elimination of Torque retard". What is "Torque retard"? That sounds like part of the "Torque management system" of the computer that I've heard about. I wonder if by eliminating that, our cars would respond better to rear end gear changes. I also wonder why Ford uses "Torque retard" in the first place, and if it would be safe to eliminate it.


I believe they are the same. I've always suspected that this was the main reason why folks claimed tranny shifts were much firmer after getting aftermarket programming via flash/chips. I thought I saw something in Jerry's tranny article about not liking the idea of playing with line pressures to improve shifts, so I figured he must be playing with the torque management in his custom calibrations. But yet the marketing info indicates they play with line pressures. Interesting... would like to have the definitive answer to this conflicting info.

It's used to soften the blow on the tranny parts during upshifts. Timing, and possibly fuel, is pulled back at precisely the moment the transmission is undergoing the mechanical movements of selecting another gear (actuating/releasing clutches, actuating/releasing bands, unlocking TCC, etc.). When all is completed, the PCM returns to regular programming, so to speak, and you get your 'full' power back.

I suspect this is why we're able to get rubber in manual shifts under 5000 RPM, but not above.... I'm sure we're bypassing the whole torque management thing or perhaps catching it where it isn't expecting a WOT upshift, so it doesn't pull back as much power. Nothing else makes sense, considering the wide range of upshift RPM points that will result in traction loss but yet above a certain point it ceases (especially curious considering we should be ending up in a fatter power band with a later upshift!).

No it won't change anything involving gear changes, except that the torque blow to the drivetrain during the upshift will be more violently applied to the tires... it may be easier to break them loose during an upshift than with 3.55 gears.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
I thought I saw something in Jerry's tranny article about not liking the idea of playing with line pressures to improve shifts, so I figured he must be playing with the torque management in his custom calibrations. But yet the marketing info indicates they play with line pressures. Interesting... would like to have the definitive answer to this conflicting info.

Ummm...I am not in disagreement with you /Steve, but I have another perspective on this.

I didn't get "torgue management" any more that y'all, it's a new phrase to me too. Reaching back to my own experience here, whether it's a mail order DR chip, or, a Jerry/FordChip.com Dyno tune, enhancements to shifting are simply adjustments in line pressures via computer. In Jerry's opinion (and mine) this is good stuff, but it's not the premium method of control shifting.

Jerry presumes that most chip buyers are regular peeps looking for a kick in the butt at the stop light. I agree. For the more "hard core," who visit their local 1320 on a rather regular basis (MOngoose?), Jerry advises to mod the tranny itself, via valve body, as he has with mine. This transfers shifting responsibility from the chip/PCM to the tranny, where it is more reliable and less volatile. Once my tranny was rebuilt, Jerry restored my PCM to "stock values." BTW, I don't have a chip.

Me thinks this new "torque management" is more a newly coined phrase added to literature and web pages to explain what takes place in the programming, than it is a secret process.

A year ago, we plugged in a few mail order chips and shouted "oh wow!" I don't think any of us really understood what was being accomplished, or, gave a rat's azz how that got pulled off.

We're not that simple anymore, we want to know precisly what's happening and why. In order to convey that to us, "torque management" came into play. In order to explain what a chip/PCM flash (and now) notebook programmer will do for us, a step-by-step explanation needed a title. Henceforth..."torque management."

Shifting (excuse my pun) your "torgue management" from the computer to the valve body insures reliable and consistent behavior. The most important aspect and value to fine tuning your MM, is consistency. Whether you run a 12.5, or, a 15.5, running that every time you run is the focus of Jerry's effort.

Like others have commented here, this computer stuff is only beginning to get better. If you just want some stop light punch, buy a chip. If you want to fiddle a bit more, or, need to run undercover, get a hand-held programmer. If you are banging gears every weekend, go mobile. And, if you want to make a few bucks on the side helping others, make an investment.

All things considered, it's only getting better, and Suprchips seems to have it all...IMHO.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by SergntMac

Me thinks this new "torque management" is more a newly coined phrase added to literature and web pages to explain what takes place in the programming, than it is a secret process.


That's exactly what it is, actually. Not having seen the Ford PCM tuning s/w in person, I can't comment on the exact methodology involved, but I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty that the GM LS1 PCMs use a percentage value.

Back in the early LS1 years, the term "torque management" was some rumor that had automatic-equipped F-body owners up in arms hoping to get to the bottom of everything. The thought that their PCM was somehow holding back their engines from maximum power throughout an entire 1/4 mile's worth of WOT driving seemed scandalous. LOL!

Some manual tranny-equipped LS1 owners were even worried they were equally saddled with this power management routine (I know I was, but it turned out not to be the case).

Now that "LS1 Edit" is in the hands of many serious LS1 users, I know quite a few have dropped their torque management restrictions to 25% or lower, and now have neck-snapping shifts most of the time. Will their transmissions take the added abuse without tearing up? The LS1 does have a torque curve flat enough to seat 12 apostles and a messiah, so I'll be watching the developments with great interest.


The MM is my first automobile that is equipped with an electronically controlled automatic tranny. Would I play with torque management? Probably not, but that's because I have no prior experience with this tranny... no "gut feeling" on what it can take, at stock line pressures.


If I understand your experience with Jerry and your rebuilt transmission, would I be correct in deducing that Jerry recommends stock PCM torque management once tranny internal line pressures have been optimized? (Supporting reasoning would be that the more aggressive line pressures coupled with less torque management might bring on potentially damaging shock events to key tranny / driveline components?)

Would I also be correct in assuming that manual upshifts are no longer considered safe once the line pressures are tweaked?

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by SergntMac
You are correct, RC, but this is also what we may expect from Superchips, now that they have completed some corporate changes.

The hand held tuner is entry level, intended for the lone user who wants to "adjust" his own performance settings, and do his own diagnostics.

The package I've linked us to here, is intended for the more serious builder/racer who is racing every opportunity he/she gets, perhaps following a specific racing circut, and needs to make changes on a regular basis to accomodate changes in weather, altitude, and so on.



Yes MAC, Superchips will still have the stand alone Super Tuner, but the package you linked to will also be available with a hand held tuner option, instead of the chip burner.
You will be able to down load your own customised tuning profile from your computer to the hand held flasher, to flash your EEC instead of installing a chip

There is a lot in this long thread Here (http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?threadid=311) where Jerry and other principals involved explain it all.

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
Here's something scary...from the online owner's manual:

Data Recording
Computers in your vehicle are capable of recording detailed data
potentially including but not limited to information such as:
* the use of restraint systems including seat belts by the driver and passengers,
* information about the performance of various systems and modules in the vehicle, and
* information related to engine, throttle, steering, brake or other system status.

Any of this information could potentially including information regarding how the driver operates the vehicle potentially including but not limited to information regarding vehicle speed, brake or accelerator application or steering input. This information may be stored during regular operation or in a crash or near crash event.

This stored information may be read out and used by:
* Ford Motor Company.
* service and repair facilities.
* law enforcement or government agencies.
* others who may assert a right or obtain your consent to know such information.

Add to that systems like "On Star" where someone can monitor your car's actions at a remote location, talk to you, operate certain functions of the car etc.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
If I understand your experience with Jerry and your rebuilt transmission, would I be correct in deducing that Jerry recommends stock PCM torque management once tranny internal line pressures have been optimized? Would I also be correct in assuming that manual upshifts are no longer considered safe once the line pressures are tweaked?
Correct on both counts, /Steve. Once the tranny valve body is modified to improve shifting, stock PCM values are restored, otherwise, the tranny would be damaged. With regards to manual shifting, it's not advised under any circumstances. It was explained to me that certain functions of the PCM regarding gear changes, are executed with specific timing (not engine timing, computer code execution timing) and shifting manually overides that precision. You could hit the limiter and blow the race. Do it often enough and you'll blow the tranny/torque converter. Those of us who like hearing a little scratch at the gear change need to consider updating the tranny, or, face replacing it sooner than you think.

Originally posted by RCSignals
There is a lot in this long thread Here (http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?threadid=311) where Jerry and other principals involved explain it all.
Thank you, RC, this is a long, but educational read. I suggest any one here who is interested in tuning their MM read up.

This thread is from the forums at www.ModularDepot.com, and it began while many of us were in Marauderville, so it's dated now. Nonetheless, the first few pages are very informative and that should help all of us get up to speed on tuning. These Mustang owners have been at it for years, and the Q&A is respectable 411. It does turn into a slug fest later on, but that was handled in a professional manner, much like it gets handled here.

Remember that this early 411 is dated back to 18-21 Sept., and with speculation about what lies ahead. My opening post here, as well as other comments, are more about what's happening today. It's on the market now, it's interesting stuff, and you have a wide variety of tuning tools at your disposal. Moreover, if a lot of this stuff is over your head, and beyond your intent as an MM owner, a "Jerry tune" is still available. Next on his schedule is 15-16 Nov. in ATL, reach out to TAF for more 411.

This ModularDepot thread has a lot of good 411 from premier specialists. "FastOlds" is Jerry, a design engineer with FMC and Roush, who has covered my back through 2 MM builds, and has been very patient with this novice. The 411 I opened with came from him a few weeks after these posts. Surely, this tuning development is dynamic, and I expect new developments to come. "Stay tuned"...LOL

Perhaps now some of you will undestand why some remarks from a former vendor here did not sit well with me. Thank you again, RC.

[SergntMac]

One more thing...About "memory." I can't say for sure where this memory exists, but I think it's in the PCM itself, and it's volatile memory, dependent on electricity like the RAM in your computer. The tuning we speak of here, is stored on other types of memory that are not volatile, not dependent on electricity. A "flash" is permanent, until flashed over.

When I took over the 1x MM from Kenny Brown, I used my CarChip EX to read the PCM through the OBDII port, and collected a lot of intresting data, including a top speed of 139 MPH. Once I collected it, I disconnected the battery for a while and it all went away.

So, my advice to anyone who thinks they may encounter a problem that may become a warranty issue, i.e. blowing a tranny at a drag race, clear your PCM's memory before turning the car over to the dealer for inspection. While this feature functions as a "black box," I do not believe anything can be collected from it, once erased by lack of electricity...IMHO.

I would love to idetify the wire that supplies electricity to the PCM and put a switch on it, I hate reprogramming radio stations...Anyone?

[Dr Caleb]

Originally posted by SergntMac

I would love to idetify the wire that supplies electricity to the PCM and put a switch on it, I hate reprogramming radio stations...Anyone?

Ummm, just pull the fuse to the PCM?

I don't have my manual to tell you which one, it's under 2' of snow...

[TripleTransAm]

Good call about the PCM memory deal... I didn't realize so many tell-tale values were stored. I had heard about the rev limiter flag, though, but not the speed. I'm a certified wimp when it comes to high speeds (especially since my unexpected 155 mph shot in my WS6 in the summer of 1998), but I have kissed the rev limiter once or twice during my ownership (once while testing different shifting techniques on the track).

The tranny info comes at a good time... based on the various snippets of info, I was beginning to come to the conclusion that manual shifting results in tire spin mostly because of tripping up the torque (mis)management routines ;) but now I'm getting insight as to why it's there in the first place. Good timing, because I personally have found myself going for a rubber-scratching 1-2 upshift more often lately, pretty much every time I have the big girl all to myself. I keep telling myself it's all about gathering data points as to when she can and when she can't lay down rubber on a launch and an upshift, but the truth is that I'm just going through the motions as an excuse to fool around. I mean, how many times am I going to have to say "Yep, she laid down rubber on the launch and barked the tires good on that upshift... better try again tomorrow just in case..."?

Another lesson that's come out of this is that the higher-line-pressure / torque management association should apply to all electronically-controlled trannies, so again I'll be watching some of my F-buds and what'll happen with their trannies, shift-kits or not.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify this...

While we're indirectly picking Jerry's brain, did he ever allude to a link between the manual upshifting under power and the failure of the infamous ill-designed clip? Looking through the service manual, there are indications that "manual-2" and OD share some components... I'm wondering if violent 1-2 manual shifts could bring about premature failure of that tranny part?

[TripleTransAm]

Oh, and in all cases where my battery was disconnected at the dealer, my presets were not lost. The time was gone, the settings like speed-controlled-volume were cleared, and the current station went random after powerup, but all the presets were still there.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
While we're indirectly picking Jerry's brain, did he ever allude to a link between the manual upshifting under power and the failure of the infamous ill-designed clip? Looking through the service manual, there are indications that "manual-2" and OD share some components... I'm wondering if violent 1-2 manual shifts could bring about premature failure of that tranny part?
I'm guessing here, /Steve, because Jerry didn't spend a lot of time on the c-clip other than to explain that its not as often a failure of the clip, as it is a poorly installed clip failing. Since there is an improved replacement part on the market, I would have to guess that it's been "no surprise" for a while. No doubt though, that if the c-clip is not installed correctly, manual shifting would likely poke at early failure.

I still believe the 4R70W tranny is pretty damn strong. Like anything mass produced, we should count the successes before the failures. One joker on the line having a bad day can wreck dozens of trannys, eh?

[RCSignals]

Yes Mac, the "Superchips Custom" deal is fantastic. They claim it isn't complicated at all, just need that almost $800. I think it's the best deal over the plain racer package.
Also, packages are available for almost any Ford made going back a few years. Even the dreaded Sable ;)