And you all thought it wasn't possible!

[LincMercLover]

A number of you may remember me mentioning the fact that adding a throttle body to the list of upgrades could be a valuable option. Many said it couldn't be done because our intake is on the other side. Many said there's nothing to be gained. Well... I at least proved the first one wrong! IT DOESN'T MATTER! do you really think Ford would spend the $$$ to redesign that TB? No... They just flipped it! So, with that, I set out to get a Twin 62MM BBK TB on my car. I finally found a new one on eBay for the right price, and it came today. I just got done mounting and test driving it today. A stiffer pedal and a more touchy throttle is the results. As for seat of the pants, I think it's there, and judging by how fast that MPH needle was moving, I think there is some sort of gain here. Do I know for sure? No... Am I going to go on a dyno and find out? Umm... got $125? :D

Now, be forewarned... This thing hasn't been on the car long enoph to throw a light or blow up my motor yet (knock on wood...), and like I said, I have no dyno results to see what exactly everything's doing. When I mounted it, I left all the adjustments in their current positions. When I started the car, it reved up and died. I had to adjust the lil screw in a tad before she'd idle again. She idle's great now, and doesn't dip hardly at all when A/C's on, or when I flutter the gas. Everything seems to be going great, so we shall see... Now, on with the pics, eh?

New TB:
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=503/253New_TB.jpg

Old TB:
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=503/253Old_TB.jpg

New TB Mounted:
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=503/253New_TB_Mounted.jpg

And my entire intake system:
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=503/253LML_s_Intake.jpg

The drooling may comence... :D :help:

[Bowman9]

You installed a "Twin 62MM BBK TB" , not to sound completely stupid what was the size of your (our) old one?

[SergntMac]

I think the OEM is twin 57mm.

Bravo, Rick! Keep us posted on the performance gains/fuel economy? I love the sneaky undercover mods.

[Dr Caleb]

Niiiiice. . .

I still want dyno numbers though :)

[LincMercLover]

Sarge is correct, and yes Dr Caleb, I want some dyno sheets too!

[RF Overlord]

Hey Rick...

I thought you belonged to the "I-won't-mod-my-car-'til-the-warranty's-up" crowd...?

:lol:

Anyroad, that mod sounds like a good one, especially for the price...definitely keep us informed with dyno results... :up:

[Logan]

Rick, that's just a flipped 99+ Cobra BBK TB?

[Paul T. Casey]

Okay, I don't hate you anymore, please change my vote on your poll yesterday. IMHO, this kind of tinkering may be where we need to head for that elusive few extra ponies after other mods get done. Glad to know it's basically a bolt on, small tweaking kind of conversion. Thanx for doing the work first.

[joflewbyu2]

on my old lt1 350, the throttle was dual 48 mm while the intake manifold was 52 MM openings. is the intake on our MM 62 mm, or do we need to dremmel it open from the 57mm?

[TripleTransAm]

Larger throttle bodies can render the throttle response more sensitive, or 'digital' as some refer to it. In other words, harder to modulate as with the stocker. This may mislead one into thinking there is more power, but only a dyno/ quarter-mile report will tell the true story.

Incidentally, it's really hard to 'over throttle' a multi-port fuel injected... there's no mixture velocity to worry about. As long as the intake manifold ports / runners sizes are kept in check, there will be no problem for the injectors atomizing the fuel and mixture velocities being satisfactory, especially since the fuel is atomized so close to the intake port! Not like the old days of over-carbing an engine!

[Logan]

The Single blade TB's are worth 5-7 and a few ft/lbs on the Lightning... Throttle response is greatly improved though and they look cool. :)

[Bowman9]

There is another on ebay as we speak.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2440305005&category=33558

[jgc61sr2002]

Originally posted by SergntMac
I think the OEM is twin 57mm.

Bravo, Rick! Keep us posted on the performance gains/fuel economy? I love the sneaky undercover mods. Sarge - That's correct 57MM. :D

[LincMercLover]

Yup, that's the one. Like I said, if anyone can hook me up with a dyno run, I'll be there. Right now, I have zero moola... So far so good! :up:

[BlackHole]

Heres my 65mm Single blade Accufab like Logan said goo9d for at least 5 HP and about 10 Ft Lbs average.:D

[1 BAD 03 MM]

Thanks for the pics LML. Thats what I was looking for.

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by BlackHole
Heres my 65mm Single blade Accufab like Logan said goo9d for at least 5 HP and about 10 Ft Lbs average.:D

So that one is going on the Maauder?

[MAD-3R]

Didn't Trilogy test a single blade on there SC car, and come up with a lose? I seem to remember that...

[LincMercLover]

I didn't go with a single blade because personally I think anything more than the 62MM is un-needed and the twin bore design of the stock and BBK TB create a sort of spooling air flow effect.

One thing I have noticed now is the 2000 (or about 1900 in my case) RPM rev up is gone. High idle also isn't as prodominant on a cold morning, but the car isn't dieing, and is warming up within a reasonable ammount of time.

[joflewbyu2]

someone have a pic of the intake opening, so we would know if it is 57 mm, 62 mm twin openings or a single 57mm, 62 mm opening?

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by LincMercLover
I didn't go with a single blade because personally I think anything more than the 62MM is un-needed and the twin bore design of the stock and BBK TB create a sort of spooling air flow effect.


Why do you say the spooling air flow effect is beneficial?

About the idle... whenever GM cars have their throttle bodies disturbed or changed, it's a good idea to reset the Idle Air Control valve to a known location. This is because the GM PCM might not know exactly where the pintle is sitting and might hunt for a proper RPM... it's an involved procedure to realign the PCM and the pintle. Is this also necessary on the Ford PCMs? Maybe this is why the startup idle is different.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by LincMercLover

One thing I have noticed now is the 2000 (or about 1900 in my case) RPM rev up is gone.

Really? I thought that was a function of the ECM programming...:confused:

So what DOES it rev up to now? This may be a quick and easy solution to that issue, and give a little more performance as well.

Way cool.

[Ross]

LML, now you have to get rid of that silencer. I'll send you a peanut butter lid.:lol:

[BlackHole]

Originally posted by RCSignals
So that one is going on the Maauder?

Yes as I need a pretty clear intake path for the twin hair dryers thats going on in about 2 years.

[Ross]

I checked out some web sites about BBK throttle bodies, and they apparently make a bunch of them for various Mustang type engines. So, since this is an easy and cheap bolt on mod, (the kind that I like!), how about some opinions as to whether the twin 62mm is optimum for our cars, or is a larger size better? More ideas on single vs. double blade? This has me really interested. Looks like one of the few mods I would trust myself to do without professional help.

[Ross]

LML, what did you use to clean up the new TB before you put it on? It sure looks nice compared to the frist pic.

[LincMercLover]

The first pic is the stocker TB, that's why it's so dirty. I used a little metal polish on the new TB, just to add a lil shine and protection to it before install.

As far as the silencer, that's been long gone. ;)

I say spooling air flow is better in a NA motor because, well... flat air just isn't? It helps in the atomization of gas and air, which gives a cleaner, more potent burn.

And as for going bigger, BBK is really good at making their TB's in "steps." The first step you see for a particular car is good for NA applications with other mild bolt-ons. Their second "step" is for SC cars and other extreme applications. The next step for this particular TB from BBK is a Twin 67MM. And of course the first "step" was the 62MM, which I chose.

Now, as for today's events... Not as well as I hoped, but I've gotten a lot of things ironed out now and we'll see what happens tomorrow. When the car wouldn't idle when I first installed it, I adjusted the idle screw. Reasonable, right? Well... what wasn't reasonable about it was how much the thing ended up having to go in to get it to idle. There's another screw, an Idle Air Control Bleed screw. This determins how much air leaks through the TB at all times, and that "leaking" air is also what the Idle Air Control module gathers info off of. I don't think you can see it in the picture, but the stocker TB has two gapping holes in each bore to leak air. The new TB has this screw with a metering needle. Anyway, she woke up this morning to 40 degree bitter cold, and didn't like it. The first start was fine, but there was no high idle (which isn't necessarily a bad thing...) and felt like she wanted to die. After rolling out into the driveway from the garage, the idle grew stronger. So, I accepted all this and went on my way. Well, my buddy was checking out what I did after school today. When we left, I went to show off a lil, pulled out of my spot, got side ways, over corrected myself into a doughnut and... well... I planned on getting her back and continuing out, but she died after the doughnut. Now, was this a direct effect of the TB, I'm not so sure because I was really close to completely out of gas, so the doughnut COULD have swished the gas over and cut fuel to the motor. I say this because when I stopped and tried to start back up, she hit a lil, but didn't run. I took the key out, put it back in and turned to the run position until I heard the pump prime up, then started and she started right up. So I dunno...

Tonight, I come home and start tinkering some more... I reset the idle screw back to its normal position (one turn in after a gap check of 0.010" between the screw and the linkage). I now adjusted this IAC bleed screw. This is a bit difficult due to the fact that the TB is upside down... I had to make a tool for this. Or... well... umm... break a tool anyway. I took an old POS flat head screw driver and broke it in half so I could fit it up in there. Now, this screw is a bit difficult to turn, so I had to clamp the new tool into some vise grips and turn little by little until she got back to her usual idle state. As for now, I think I'm in a satisfactory state. The motor's too warm to know exactly what she'll due on another cold bitter day, but as far as warm conditions go, everything's gravy. No studder after a rev (with or without AC), idle's perfect in all the gears, and only revs up to about 1600RPM at start-up (I think this is where my Dad's truck revs up to also). So, we'll see what happens tomorrow morning. Will I get more of a high idle? Will she want to die at first? Can I do a doughnut without kill her? All this and more will be answered tomorrow! Stay tuned...

[RCSignals]

Sounds like you need to find yourself a stubby screw driver

[RCSignals]

rather than flip the throttle body over to install it with the IA screws on the bottom, could you have just disassembled it and reassembled with the shaft on the other side?

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by LincMercLover
Anyway, she woke up this morning to 40 degree bitter cold, and didn't like it.

40° is "bitter cold"??!! It was 21° when I woke up a few mornings ago... :rolleyes: :P

:D Thanks for the detailed explanations, Rick...sounds like you've got it almost dialed in... :up:

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by LincMercLover
I say spooling air flow is better in a NA motor because, well... flat air just isn't? It helps in the atomization of gas and air, which gives a cleaner, more potent burn.


True for carb'ed motors, because the fuel is atomized rather early in the intake tract, and then has to travel through the plenum and through manifold runners before hitting the cylinders. If you don't have a turbulent mixture here, you risk having the fuel drop out of suspension and pool within the runners or plenum.

This also applies to any throttle-body injected motor as well, since the primary nozzle is simply replaced by a low pressure injector. Have a look under the throttle bodies of a Cross-Fire Injected Corvette (1982, 1984) or F-body (1982-1983) and you'll be shocked to see a pool of fuel... er, actually more of an ocean! No wonder they ran all weird...

Also true for carb'ed motors is the necessity of not going overboard with throttle body size, since the lack of air velocity through the carb throats will result in the primary fuel circuit not working reliably. This doesn't impact Throttle-body injected cars.

Port-fuel injected motors get their fuel injected practically right at the intake valves. Any turbulent air before that is pretty much wasted restriction... you want air to get to your injectors as fast as possible, hence the huge throttle bodies on the market. But throttle blades that are too big result in too great a gulp of air with just a little opening, so your throttle response changes... much less smooth.

[Marauderer]

I would love to see the dyno results on this one as well. I was thinking of doing something similar and have been told half a dozen times that going too big can be detrimental, contrary to what has been said previously. I don't think this application fits the bill as far as being a negative, but at the same time from a purely number crunching perspective it doesn't look to offer any gain. However, we all know that the numbers game doesn't take into account how well the air flows through your system due to the presence of turbulence or the lack thereof caused by rough surfaces, etc. So yes, it will be very interesting to see how this one pans out.

<b>Here is the math:</b>

Typically you can use the generic formula in a modern engine that it will use 1.5 CFM per 1 HP (it can go higher or lower depending on the air temp, barometric pressure, and humidity).

Our stock motor = 300HP = 450 CFM
Our TB is rated at a theoretical (due to opening size not air flow characteristics) 871 CFM
The 62mm Dual is rated at a theoretical (due to opening size not air flow characteristics) 1054 CFM

As you can see, for a stock motor, the numbers say that our TB has more than enough room to accommodate its current HP level, not to mention the addition of say a Trilogy blower kit? You can look to their lead as they engineered the bejeezus out of this thing and did not find the need to replace the stock TB even at 430 HP.

On that note, keep in mind that some “supersized” add-ons that are available for our cars (TB, MAF, whatever) are only things that you may take advantage of with extreme HP increases from the stock 300 HP. The other thing to keep in mind with your planning is that any industry expert will tell you that with a stock bottom end, pushing your motor beyond the 450 HP level is not just asking for trouble, but it is begging for it in the long run. Every engine has a finite life and our motors, from the crank on up (especially the pistons) were not designed for such a high level of power. Therefore, plan for a bottom end upgrade before you go too wild :)

<b>Note:</b> There is a ton of other math you can use to verify the relative accuracy of these numbers. If you have an Autotap or OBD-2 you can use it to determine your max MAF #/min and divide it by the weight of air at the temperature of your run to determine your real world CFM which is going to be pretty darn close. You can also use these values to determine the volumetric efficiency of your motor and plug it into a calculator for a given RPM to determine the CFM needed by your engine. I use the above figures because they are close enough for general discussion purposes. BTW – if anyone has any numbers to the contrary, please let me know for the sake of accuracy.

[SILVERMARAUDER]

Originally posted by LincMercLover
I didn't go with a single blade because personally I think anything more than the 62MM is un-needed and the twin bore design of the stock and BBK TB create a sort of spooling air flow effect.

One thing I have noticed now is the 2000 (or about 1900 in my case) RPM rev up is gone. High idle also isn't as prodominant on a cold morning, but the car isn't dieing, and is warming up within a reasonable ammount of time.

the cold start rpm is history? what is the start up rpms? LML man count me in!

[stumpy]

Originally posted by Marauderer
I would love to see the dyno results on this one as well. I was thinking of doing something similar and have been told half a dozen times that going too big can be detrimental, contrary to what has been said previously.

I'm with Marauderer on this one. All this mod gets you is increased volumetric flow allowing you to up the RPMs to a nice high figure of say, oh somewhere around 16,000. Don't forget the 60lbs/hr injectors to go with it. :lol:

It's not likely to register in the SOTP meter on a stock motor.

[LincMercLover]

OK, here's my analysis so far... It hates the cold now, plain and simple. I've got it pretty well dialed in to the point that it'll start up, rev to about 1600RPM, and fall to 500RPM. Reving during the first 30seconds or so will cause the RPM to drop a tad below 500RPM, then she'll catch herself and bring it back up a lil. So yah, the cold start high idle is gone. It'd probably have to be re-instated with a lil computer tuning. Not a real big deal cause if you think about it, this low, cold idle is good for several reasons. It gives the oil a chance to warm up instead of trying to slop around cold oil at an idle of about 900RPM. Also, the rev up only goes to about 1600RPM when it's cold, then the usual 1900RPM when warm. The car is fine when it bone cold, you just can't slam it to the floor, or it'll die. Which, you don't need to be pushing a motor that hard when it's that cold anyway. After about a minute, maybe less, you could do whatever you want. I'm still working on some fine tuning of it... I don't expect to get the high idle back, I'm just looking for a lil stronger cold idle for that 30seconds or so when I start her up on a 35degree morning (yes, it got colder here...).

[stumpy]

I'm not sure if this would apply to a ford, but the TPS (throttle position sensor) on GM cars impacts open loop operation as well as electronic transmission controls. Many, including myslef, have had problems with after market TBs that change the position of the TPS and cause problems such as idle surge at startup and soft shifting. The bad news here, so I've heard, is what it can do to the transmission if it's not compensated for by re-programming the PCM. One alternative has been to bore out the stock TB, thereby eliminating any potential TPS problems.

Like I said, may not be a problem for you, but I'd hate to see you blaze a trail like this and breaking something major in the process.

HTH

[TripleTransAm]

Good call on the TPS! I mentioned resetting the IAC valve but never thought about possible TPS misadjustment. Definitely something to verify.

[LincMercLover]

I don't think the TPS is a problem. The pedal's the same and transmission shift points still feel like they did before. I do think something would need a little programing in the cold idle loop, cause I don't think that IAC is getting exactly what it wants while cold. Like I said, the old TB has two huge holes drilled into each bore that bleed the air, that's gotta have something to do with it.

I do think, however, that IF/WHEN I get that Mach 1, I'll use the MM's old TB, port and polish it, and put it on as an upgrade. Hey, it's basically free! :up:

[CRUZTAKER]

Hey Rick, no one mentioned the air filter in your pic....when did you delete the stock box? And what are you using as an air filter now? Please details on the air filter mod, parts, and manufacturer.

Thanks

Barry

[mtnh]

I would think that too low of a cold idle would really have a hard time of moving the oil through the engine. I can envision highly accellerated wear from a 10-20 degree (F) engine idling at 500 rpm. If you keep the engine idling at that speed when cold, you should probably be running some Mobil 1 0W-30. It must also suck eggs to have a 2003 car that is susceptible to stalling, ouch! Maybe a Jerry tune would be able to get your cold running straight.

Mike

[LincMercLover]

It's idling at about 575-600RPM when cold cold in Park, with an oil pressure of a tad over 100psi. When warm, she idles at about 675RPM (idle bump on last tune for underdrives) when in gear.

The air filter stuff is a C&L kit for 2001 Mustang Cobra. Had to have the MAF recalibrated (the C&L uses stock needles) for the 85MM MAF. The K&N conical filter came with it. I used a mounting bolt from the stock air box to mount the new MAF.

[FordNut]

OK, here's my analysis so far... It hates the cold now, plain and simple. I've got it pretty well dialed in to the point that it'll start up, rev to about 1600RPM, and fall to 500RPM. Reving during the first 30seconds or so will cause the RPM to drop a tad below 500RPM, then she'll catch herself and bring it back up a lil. So yah, the cold start high idle is gone. It'd probably have to be re-instated with a lil computer tuning. Not a real big deal cause if you think about it, this low, cold idle is good for several reasons. It gives the oil a chance to warm up instead of trying to slop around cold oil at an idle of about 900RPM. Also, the rev up only goes to about 1600RPM when it's cold, then the usual 1900RPM when warm. The car is fine when it bone cold, you just can't slam it to the floor, or it'll die. Which, you don't need to be pushing a motor that hard when it's that cold anyway. After about a minute, maybe less, you could do whatever you want. I'm still working on some fine tuning of it... I don't expect to get the high idle back, I'm just looking for a lil stronger cold idle for that 30seconds or so when I start her up on a 35degree morning (yes, it got colder here...).

So how did everything work out with regards to tuning for the new throttle body? I'm thinking about getting one too but if it's a lot of trial-and-error tuning maybe I won't. How about a detailed step-by-step setup and tuning tutorial? My Pro-M MAF sensor should be getting here soon.

[LincMercLover]

The car is fine. It took some fine tuning, but she's there. The idle stop screw must be set to standard spec, then bumped about 1/2 of a turn. The bleed screw, I dunno... It needs to be adjusted. How much? I dunno... quite a bit considering the size of the bleed "holes" in the old TB were pretty big. The screw is just a hair recessed from the body of the TB. The only exact calibration I could give you would be by taking it off the car, and I the car gets drove pretty much everyday. Sorry... It should take you much though to dial it in from what I've said here.

I do still believe there was some sort of gains. Throttle response has increased and it all in all feels like there's an increase in power. It needs to get back on the dyno. One for numbers and two, another tune couldn't hurt it. Someday... :rolleyes: