Health Care, Obama.....

[CBT]

....are we all going to ignore it? I'm talking government mandated health care. Thoughts? Pro's? Cons? For? Against?

[Phrog_gunner]

Who else is gonna join me in jail for not paying the fine?

[Blackened300a]

IBTL. This was brought up once before and the thread was locked.

I personally am against. I work hard for my coverage and I don't feel the need to support people who don't share my same work ethic.

[nomad]

IBTL. This was brought up once before and the thread was locked.

I personally am against. I work hard for my coverage and I don't feel the need to support people who don't share my same work ethic.
The PERFECT response!

[Pops]

I voted no! No good can come of this bill. How can you vote something in and have no idea what is in it again. The back room payoffs will cost as much as the whole package. The 1.3 Trillion defict reduction was based on no true facts. They stated they could not make accurate preditions 20 years from now. The people have been taken way out in the field on this one. The Sheeple are not thinking.:mad2: Can I complain some more!:censor:

[nomad]

I voted no! No good can come of this bill. How can you vote something in and have no idea what is in it again. The back room payoffs will cost as much as the whole package. The 1.3 Trillion defict reduction was based on no true facts. They stated they could not make accurate preditions 20 years from now. The people have been taken way out in the field on this one. The Sheeple are not thinking.:mad2: Can I complain some more!:censor:

At least people our age won't be hit that hard in the wallet.

I feel very,very sorry for the future generations that will foot the bill.:shake:

[guspech750]

IBTL. This was brought up once before and the thread was locked.

I personally am against. I work hard for my coverage and I don't feel the need to support people who don't share my same work ethic.

Perfectly put. I might as well just quit my job. Government run anything is bad. Funny how the government runs mortgages, auto industry, banking, and healthcare. Socialist country my a$$. How about communist.

[CBT]

I don't know why a debate about something this "historic" would get locked, I mean this thing affects us all. Do you all think it will actually even take affect? State Attorneys general are poised to challenge the law as un-constitutional.

[Blackened300a]

I don't know why a debate about something this "historic" would get locked, I mean this thing affects us all. Do you all think it will actually even take affect? State Attorneys general are poised to challenge the law as un-constitutional.

It was un-constitutional. We didnt vote for this and 80% of the country don't want it.
This was all about fulfilling a legacy then actually doing good for the people.
November 2nd make sure all you registered voters get out there.

[guspech750]

Is it true 38 states plan on taking the feds to court over this? Its very unconstitutional too!!

[CBT]

I don't see how people can be fined for something they don't want. If you are healthy as a horse and never go to a doctor, now you will be fined for not buying insurance. Isn't that extorsion? Forcing someone to pay for "insurance"?

[BAD MERC]

I have my Flag flying upside-down. One more giant nail in the coffin of this once-great Country....

[Leadfoot281]

Who else is gonna join me in jail for not paying the fine?

I'll be there too. Screw 'em. I've paid enough taxes already ($1,000,000.00 in ten years alone). I'm switching to an underground/ all cash economy now. Guerilla capitalism here I come!

[Rocknthehawk]

I don't see how people can be fined for something they don't want. If you are healthy as a horse and never go to a doctor, now you will be fined for not buying insurance. Isn't that extorsion? Forcing someone to pay for "insurance"?


Ask ANYONE from Massachusetts how that works out.

Ask ANYONE from Massachusetts how a mandatory insurance is working out.

There are still uninsured residents in this state. For some of us, it's cheaper to pay the fine than to be insured. I was told I make too much money (like many others)...my option for healthcare is 1/2 my paycheck every WEEK!

There are parts I like about the bill, but as a whole, I disagree. There is nothing to regulate COST! Isn't this the major issue for uninsured? People would rather spend their money elsewhere, plain and simple. I work hard, If i don't want to pay for myself, I sure as hell wouldn't want to pay for XXXX somewhere else!

[guspech750]

I'll be there too. Screw 'em. I've paid enough taxes already ($1,000,000.00 in ten years alone). I'm switching to an underground/ all cash economy now. Guerilla capitalism here I come!
Damn straight. Ill put all my money in a shoe box!! Pay my bills with cash or money orders!!

[Blackened300a]

I don't see how people can be fined for something they don't want. If you are healthy as a horse and never go to a doctor, now you will be fined for not buying insurance. Isn't that extorsion? Forcing someone to pay for "insurance"?

Exactly. See how screwed up this is? Families making under $28K and congress members are all exempt from this nonsense. Those who have the best Health coverage that money can buy are now hit with a 40% tax on top of their coverage payment. Prescriptions will now be taxed more as well and we will have to eat the costs of that.
This is all so some useless member of society with no motivation or direction in life can be equal with the hard working people who support this country with our tax money.
That's the "Change" we are getting. Next will be a immigration bill that opens the doors for everyone to come in because the tax-payer will support them too. :mad2:

[MMBLUE]

The dems are going to take me kicking and screaming to jail to pay that fine.

[guspech750]

I guess our only saving grace would be if every one in DC dropped dead or if a new president can some how get rid of this garbage. Im hoping for everyone to drop dead though.

[boatmangc]

19198[url]

[Spectragod]

Exactly. See how screwed up this is? Families making under $28K and congress members are all exempt from this nonsense. Those who have the best Health coverage that money can buy are now hit with a 40% tax on top of their coverage payment. Prescriptions will now be taxed more as well and we will have to eat the costs of that.
This is all so some useless member of society with no motivation or direction in life can be equal with the hard working people who support this country with our tax money.
That's the "Change" we are getting. Next will be a immigration bill that opens the doors for everyone to come in because the tax-payer will support them too. :mad2:

You have that right! I can't wait till we open to borders for all, and make them legal, so they can get their free stuff too.

How about the census that was sent out. WTF? How does getting an accurate count define needing my name and date of birth, that's pretty much all you need to steal an identity. I really liked the question asking if my home was bought and paid for, what's that got to do with counting heads? I have a real good idea what it's about....... redistribution.

We are all about to get it jammed in us.....:mad2:

Pass the ammo...............

[LIGHTNIN1]

It is all about controlling us. Has nothing to do with insuring the uninsured.That could have been done with very little money. First they take over two car companies, the banks controlling salaries, now the insurance companies.They already can print money anytime they want. At some point you might as well quit work. The money in the shoebox idea is probably where some are headed.:mad2:

[CBT]

Holy......!!!!



There are still uninsured residents in this state. For some of us, it's cheaper to pay the fine than to be insured. I was told I make too much money (like many others)...my option for healthcare is 1/2 my paycheck every WEEK!

[Leadfoot281]

This is what should have been done.

Try to ignore the fact that Ann Coulter wrote this if you don't like her (she's too liberal for me once in a while too :lol:) and just think about this idea.

http://townhall.com/columnists/AnnCoulter/2010/03/17/my_healthcare_plan?page=1

[bob6364]

{{{sigh}}}... Try being an employer with this thing...I'm thinking of becoming a female Saudi ...I would have more rights.

[jerrym3]

Not having health insurance is a gamble. Even young people get sick. I don't like to gamble. I usually lose.

Also, I'm fortunate that I live in a state where you cannot be turned down for insurance.

When I lost my job, I was at the right age for Medicare, but my wife is five years younger. We had to get a plan just for her. The applications had very few questions regarding health history, and, according to the reps, it didn't matter anyway, because you can't be denied insurance in NJ.

As for working hard for your insurance, I worked hard for decades, but there aren't too many jobs out there for workers in their 60s. (I feel really sorry for those in their mid 50s that lost their jobs.)

I'm not saying the bill is good (or bad), but sometimes you have to look at things through someone else's eyes.

[W4LTD]

Why should we pay for anyone's medical bills but our own? Blah, giving insurance to people who aren't offered it or who are unemployed and cannot afford COBRA or traditional medical insurance! How dare we help our fellow Americans!

Next thing you know, they'll be giving paychecks to people who lose their jobs and label it "unemployment benefits". What a ridiculous thought and a waste of taxpayer's money!

[Shora]

Who else is gonna join me in jail for not paying the fine?


The PERFECT response!


Ask ANYONE from Massachusetts how that works out.

Ask ANYONE from Massachusetts how a mandatory insurance is working out.

There are still uninsured residents in this state. For some of us, it's cheaper to pay the fine than to be insured. I was told I make too much money (like many others)...my option for healthcare is 1/2 my paycheck every WEEK!

There are parts I like about the bill, but as a whole, I disagree. There is nothing to regulate COST! Isn't this the major issue for uninsured? People would rather spend their money elsewhere, plain and simple. I work hard, If i don't want to pay for myself, I sure as hell wouldn't want to pay for XXXX somewhere else!


The dems are going to take me kicking and screaming to jail to pay that fine.

I agree 100% percent. Screw'em!!

However, all those who refuse insurance, should also be refused emergency room care as well.

"I" don't want to be paying "your" bill when you walk through those doors and end up with a $10K-$100K plus bill!!!

It's your "right" to live without insurance, but go to hell when you need help and don't have the cash money!!!

Unless you guys want the best of BOTH worlds? Not paying for insurance
but still able to rack up huge bills in the ER.

Die in the streets!!!!

I own my own business so I pay for insurance out of pocket, but I know many other small business owners (and those who work for a small business that doesn't offer a health care plan) who cannot afford $1,600 monthly payment.

Screw 'em. They end up in the ER and their bill gets passed on to my health insurance provider, who in turn passes that INTO MY BILL!!!!!

HELL No!!!

Die in the streets!!!

And screw all the Seniors too!!!! What kinda communist Country are we living in where we "pay for their medical care?" If they don't have my "work ethic" and saved enough to cover them in their later years, let em die in the streets.

I am with ya'll.

Let's screw 'em.

[MERCMAN]

Remember cash for clunkers??

If the guy who worked out the math is right, then this is what happened:



A clunker that travels 12,000 miles a year at 15 mpg uses 800 gallons of gas a year.

A vehicle that travels 12,000 miles a year at 25 mpg uses 480 gallons a year.

So, the average Cash for Clunkers transaction will reduce US gasoline consumption by 320 gallons per year.

They claim 700,000 vehicles so that's 224 million gallons saved per year.

That equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of oil. 5 million barrels is about 5 hours worth of US consumption.

More importantly, 5 million barrels of oil at $70 per barrel costs about $350 million dollars.

So, the government paid $3 billion of our tax dollars to save $350 million.

We spent $8.57 for every dollar we saved.

I'm pretty sure they will do a great job with our health care, though.

[Spectragod]

My neighbor is constantly complaining about how high their health insurance is, of course he let his wife tell him when he was 52 that he needed to retire early? And thay have a Class C that they don't use, 3 cars, his 40 year old daughter and 5 year old live with them, they all have cell phones with every plan available, satalite TV with every channel, their home phone has every service available, the waste over there is crazy, but guess what, they believe everyone should have free healthcare, because they can't afford it...... they could if they cut the dead weight.

I hate people..............

[Mike]

IBTL. This was brought up once before and the thread was locked.

I personally am against. I work hard for my coverage and I don't feel the need to support people who don't share my same work ethic.

Well said...couldn't agree more.

[Shora]

I know many called their representatives to express their anger over this bill.

I do hope that you told them to introduce a bill to end Medicare, Social Security, and the VA.

All Red Russia Communist programs.

If only there was a way to find out how many RECEIVING Medicare, S.S., and/ or VA benefits call "this" health care bill socialist.

Too bad our Political Leaders are too "politically correct" to call those fools out on it.

[Phrog_gunner]

My neighbor is constantly complaining about how high their health insurance is, of course he let his wife tell him when he was 52 that he needed to retire early? And thay have a Class C that they don't use, 3 cars, his 40 year old daughter and 5 year old live with them, they all have cell phones with every plan available, satalite TV with every channel, their home phone has every service available, the waste over there is crazy, but guess what, they believe everyone should have free healthcare, because they can't afford it...... they could if they cut the dead weight.

I hate people..............

I guess you missed the part where all channels and full cell phone service are a civil right in the constitution. And it's your duty to supplement them so they can have all of those things.;)

[Spectragod]

I guess you missed the part where all channels and full cell phone service are a civil right in the constitution. And it's your duty to supplement them so they can have all of those things.;)

Oh.... what was I thinking?:confused: Maybe If I could get welfare for being a "Marauderholic", Hmmmmmmmm.:D

[Shora]

My neighbor is constantly complaining about how high their health insurance is, of course he let his wife tell him when he was 52 that he needed to retire early? And thay have a Class C that they don't use, 3 cars, his 40 year old daughter and 5 year old live with them, they all have cell phones with every plan available, satalite TV with every channel, their home phone has every service available, the waste over there is crazy, but guess what, they believe everyone should have free healthcare, because they can't afford it...... they could if they cut the dead weight.

I hate people..............

WE AGREE!!!

We BOTH hate people.

We should ALSO stop paying for their 5 yr. old's schooling. If they cannot afford to paying for schooling, I don't want "my" tax dollars going to that spoiled ass child who has a TV in the house with parents who own a cell phone.

Let him go to work and pay for his OWN schooling if he wants to learn. What are we in Cuba where we should pay for another's child to go to school?

HECK No.

[Phrog_gunner]

Oh.... what was I thinking?:confused: Maybe If I could get welfare for being a "Marauderholic", Hmmmmmmmm.:D

Make sure you find out how to sell your food stamps for cash so you can buy more Marauder parts. Then sue Ford for your pain and suffering.

[Rocknthehawk]

WE AGREE!!!

We BOTH hate people.

We should ALSO stop paying for their 5 yr. old's schooling. If they cannot afford to paying for schooling, I don't want "my" tax dollars going to that spoiled ass child who has a TV in the house with parents who own a cell phone.

Let him go to work and pay for his OWN schooling if he wants to learn. What are we in Cuba where we should pay for another's child to go to school?

HECK No.


Shora, I usually respect your opinion and agree with you, and maybe i'm out of my league in opening this can of worms, but your arguement seems to only make sense for taxes you already pay. Is this new bill not going to raise your taxes? (again, maybe i'm wrong, but this bill does nothing to control the COST of care!)

If I go to the ER without insurance, am I charged a portion (like you or anyone else insured would), or do I get a bill for $XXXX.XX?

How has this plan of a mandated, government run health care worked for the only state using this system, Massachusetts?

[Phrog_gunner]

How was this plan of a mandated, government run health care worked for the only state using this system, Massachusetts?

It failed in TN also....:beer:

[guspech750]

2012 doesnt seem to bad of fate now.http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent072.gif

[Shora]

Shora, I usually respect your opinion and agree with you, and maybe i'm out of my league in opening this can of worms, but your arguement seems to only make sense for taxes you already pay. Is this new bill not going to raise your taxes? (again, maybe i'm wrong, but this bill does nothing to control the COST of care!)

If I go to the ER without insurance, am I charged a portion (like you or anyone else insured would), or do I get a bill for $XXXX.XX?

How has this plan of a mandated, government run health care worked for the only state using this system, Massachusetts?

First, you are one of the more balanced members here. Much more so than me. I lean to the other extreme of most here but that's ok with me. I try to keep my mind open and I do learn from others every day.

-Anyway, is this bill perfect?

HECK NO.

-Is the status quo better?

HECK NO.

-Was there an alternative plan (or any plan) pushed down our throats when the Elephants had a majority in the house, senate, executive?

HECK NO.

-Did the opposition spend time writing/ introducing a better bill instead of just attacking this one?

HECK NO.

-Did the opposition party who fought against all the other Socialist programs here in the States EVER introduce a bill(s) to repeal them?

HECK NO.

They fight the Socialist plans while taking money from big Corps. whos interests are not in these programs, but lose their BALLS after they pass.

In my lifetime, I will NEVER have respect for those who collect money or benifits from a socialist program(s) yet try to scare others not to allow another needed program to take place.

This Tea Party sign sums it all up: "Get your Government hands off my Medicare."

Fools I tell ya.

[Phrog_gunner]

-Did the opposition spend time writing/ introducing a better bill instead of just attacking this one?

HECK NO

So then what was tort reform and the elimination of interstate barriers???


You forgot one:

-Whether it is a good or bad thing, can we afford this?

HECK NO.

[CBT]

I'm one, and I don't like it, but I'm no fool.


I know many called their representatives to express their anger over this bill.

I do hope that you told them to introduce a bill to end Medicare, Social Security, and the VA.

All Red Russia Communist programs.

If only there was a way to find out how many RECEIVING Medicare, S.S., and/ or VA benefits call "this" health care bill socialist.

Too bad our Political Leaders are too "politically correct" to call those fools out on it.

[Shora]

Shora, I usually respect your opinion and agree with you, and maybe i'm out of my league in opening this can of worms, but your arguement seems to only make sense for taxes you already pay. Is this new bill not going to raise your taxes? (again, maybe i'm wrong, but this bill does nothing to control the COST of care!)

If I go to the ER without insurance, am I charged a portion (like you or anyone else insured would), or do I get a bill for $XXXX.XX?

How has this plan of a mandated, government run health care worked for the only state using this system, Massachusetts?

In my last post, I didn't address all of your concerns.

First, none of our socialist plans "control costs" efficiently. Am I, or anyone else, happy about that? NO. I would love the fight about making them better, but I also don't see the fight about repealing them. If they are socialist, REPEAL THEM.

Why are they NOT introducing bills to REPEAL S.S., Medicare, VA Benefits, etc.? They are socialist. WHHHHY?

About your ER costs. Many of the members here who don't want to pay for health insurance don't have a lot of savings. If, G_D forbid, they get sick, or break a leg crossing the street or whatever, there is a high chance that they will go belly up on their ER bill.

It's their right not to buy health insurance, but THEY ARE STILL SMOOTCHING OFF THE SYSTEM and MY MONEY.

My neighbor, in her early 60's who cannot afford $800 a month for her health care went without it for 20+ years. She was healthy. Got an infection and needed to an organ removed (i forgot which one).

She suffered with the pain for over 2 weeks before seeking ER care. The doctor told her if she would have waited another day, she might have died. He blood was toxic from the infection.

The operation cost over 30K dollars and I know she doesn't have that kinda money. Who do you think is paying for it?

BTW, I know this woman very well, and she has NEVER not worked and paid taxes. Too bad her hard work and contributions don't count because she works at a mom and pops and not some big corporation that offered health care.

Is this fair? NO!!!

Is this acceptable in the richest Country in the World? NO!!!!

Those who don't want to pay for insurance have that right, but please stay home next time you or a loved one gets sick without having the funds to cover bill.

[Shora]

I'm one, and I don't like it, but I'm no fool.

Sorry for getting personal/ insulting.

[Shora]

So then what was tort reform and the elimination of interstate barriers???


You forgot one:

-Whether it is a good or bad thing, can we afford this?

HECK NO.

Tort reform and interstate barriers are JUST provions. They never instoduced a bill. NEVER.

Can we afford:

Medicare?
S.S.?
VA benefits?
Sending that spoiled ass 5 yr. old child mentioned above, whose parents own BOTH A TV AND A CELL PHONE, to school?

HECK NO.

When we repeal those programs, let's talk. Better yet, when the Tea Party moves to repeal them, I'll detail your Marauder.

[CBT]

Sorry for getting personal/ insulting.

No worries, I opened it for all opinions. I don't believe a single politician will go thru what you and I do when it comes to health care. I seriously do not see them having to first contact a primary care physician, get to see them 2 months later, just to have them screen you for what doctor they think you need to go to 3 months after that. It's crazy.

[Rocknthehawk]

In my last post, I didn't address all of your concerns.


I appriciate your reply Shora. As I said in my first post, there are things in this bill I agree with. I'm sure some of them will benefit me. As a whole, I do not agree with it. I agree with you on "Us" not being able to afford these other programs, but unfortunately, they will more than likely never change.

[Phrog_gunner]

Tort reform and interstate barriers are JUST provions. They never instoduced a bill. NEVER.

Can we afford:

Medicare?
S.S.?
VA benefits?
Sending that spoiled ass 5 yr. old child mentioned above, whose parents own BOTH A TV AND A CELL PHONE, to school?

HECK NO.

When we repeal those programs, let's talk. Better yet, when the Tea Party moves to repeal them, I'll detail your Marauder.

So if we agree that we can't afford those, then how does adding health care to the list make any sense? I can detail my own car, but thanks for the offer.

I will gladly have my tax money go to the VA to support people who have EARNED it by serving in the military. That IS constitutional under the general welfare clause because everyone in the country has lived under the protection of the military.

While we are taxing the rich to support the poor, why don't we start doing that with grades in school. I mean little Mary doesn't need that 95% grade she earned. If a passing grade is say 70% she should give some of the grade she earned to little Johnny so his 55% is now passing.

[CBT]

So if we agree that we can't afford those, then how does adding health care to the list make any sense? I can detail my own car, but thanks for the offer.

I will gladly have my tax money go to the VA to support people who have EARNED it by serving in the military. That IS constitutional under the general welfare clause because everyone in the country has lived under the protection of the military.

While we are taxing the rich to support the poor, why don't we start doing that with grades in school. I mean little Mary doesn't need that 95% grade she earned. If a passing grade is say 70% she should give some of the grade she earned to little Johnny so his 55% is now passing.

When put that way, I don't like this whole sharing the wealth crap!

[Phrog_gunner]

When put that way, I don't like this whole sharing the wealth crap!

You mean you did before I put it that way?

[-Matt-]

If only there was a way to find out how many RECEIVING Medicare, S.S., and/ or VA benefits call "this" health care bill socialist.

Too bad our Political Leaders are too "politically correct" to call those fools out on it.


I do not agree with this at all, Medicare and SS were both paid in by people that WORKED, not people that didnt.

And about VA, did you serve? No? Then keep your mouth shut about VA and people that shouldnt have a RIGHT to receive it.

[vkirkend]

It's too bad this country belives that old people should at least have some guarantee of money to live off of when they get old. It's too bad that this country will make provisions to help elderly citizens by making sure they will have health care when they are old and may not be able to afford to pay for it or might be dropped for "pre-existing conditions' (due to their age). What is this country coming to that it actually makes prescription medicine affordable for for the elderly, or the un employed, or the young. This country might as well be RUSSIA!!! Oh that's right they all want to come here and live the american dream. Go figure......

[Phrog_gunner]

And about VA, did you serve? No? Then keep your mouth shut about VA and people that shouldnt have a RIGHT to receive it.

I was gonna let someone more diplomatic than me tackle that one. All I could think about was:

And my existence, while grotesque, and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like 'Honor', 'Code', 'Loyalty!' We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time, nor the inclination, to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said 'Thank you', and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand at post! Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

[Shora]

I do not agree with this at all, Medicare and SS were both paid in by people that WORKED, not people that didnt.

And about VA, did you serve? No? Then keep your mouth shut about VA and people that shouldnt have a RIGHT to receive it.

WITH ALL DO RESPECT, STFU!!

I hate that argument. I hate how you think that serving gives you the right to end an argument with "I served."

3 family members of mine served. What do you know about my situation and what I have given to this Country? You think serving in the military is the only way to serve this Country?

VA is a socialist program. Cry about it all you want, it won't change it.

Keep you Red Russian Chavez loving Socialist benefits, just don't tell me others can't get them too.

[Phrog_gunner]

WITH ALL DO RESPECT, STFU!!

I hate that argument. I hate how you think that serving gives you the right to end an argument with "I served."

3 family members of mine served. What do you know about my situation and what I have given to this Country? You think serving in the military is the only way to serve this Country?

VA is a socialist program. Cry about it all you want, it won't change it.

Keep you Red Russian Chavez loving Socialist benefits, just don't tell me others can't get them too.

So that means you did not serve?

I'm glad to see your post filled with facts and logic instead of immaturity.

[-Matt-]

WITH ALL DO RESPECT, STFU!!

I hate that argument. I hate how you think that serving gives you the right to end an argument with "I served."

Hate it all you want. I have a RIGHT to say "I SERVED" just as much as you have a RIGHT to tell me to STFU... Difference is, I and my brothers that have served and will serve, those that have given the ultimate sacrifice, gave you that RIGHT to say that.


3 family members of mine served. What do you know about my situation and what I have given to this Country? You think serving in the military is the only way to serve this Country?

No, but im sure they and their families enjoyed their VA benefits when they got them. Stop riding on their coat tails.

[Shora]

So if we agree that we can't afford those, then how does adding health care to the list make any sense?....

It makes sense because I don't like one group getting what others don't. Kill it for all or give it to all. OR PAY YOU OWN F-ING WAY.


I will gladly have my tax money go to the VA to support people who have EARNED it by serving in the military. That IS constitutional under the general welfare clause because everyone in the country has lived under the protection of the military.

I too gladly give it to those who server. Members of my have have. But, unlike you, I will also gladly give it to the poor who work at a mom and pops and can't afford it when the job doesn't provide it. Small business runs this Country, but small business in general cannot afford to pay for health care. Who loses?

While we are taxing the rich to support the poor, why don't we start doing that with grades in school. I mean little Mary doesn't need that 95% grade she earned. If a passing grade is say 70% she should give some of the grade she earned to little Johnny so his 55% is now passing.

While we tax the rich for the S.S., Medicare, Va benefits, we should also tax their ass for the poor or not tax em at all.

[Phrog_gunner]

While we tax the rich for the S.S., Medicare, Va benefits, we should also tax their ass for the poor or not tax em at all.

Why would you tax their ass? Does that mean they would pay with poop?

[-Matt-]

While we tax the rich for the S.S., Medicare, Va benefits, we should also tax their ass for the poor or not tax em at all.

For the truly poor or for the illegals and/or trash that have 40 kids, lives on welfare, food stamps, and drug money?

[Shora]

Hate it all you want. I have a RIGHT to say "I SERVED" just as much as you have a RIGHT to tell me to STFU... Difference is, I and my brothers that have served and will serve, those that have given the ultimate sacrifice, gave you that RIGHT to say that.



No, but im sure they and their families enjoyed their VA benefits when they got them. Stop riding on their coat tails.

They do enjoy their benefits, just as much as the elderly who protest in the Tea Party against socialist programs all while receiving benefits from SOCIALIST PROGRAMS.

Don't worry about what "rights" I have when you defended this Country from Socialism, yet cry and bit ch for socialist money (for yourself only).

[Shora]

Why would you tax their ass? Does that mean they would pay with poop?

Now that right there is funny.


For the truly poor or for the illegals and/or trash that have 40 kids, lives on welfare, food stamps, and drug money?

Let's start with all legal citizens. You should call them your brothers too. Not only your fellow veterens.

If you hate the public so much, why did you risk it all to protect them?

[-Matt-]

They do enjoy their benefits, just as much as the elderly who protest in the Tea Party against socialist programs all while receiving benefits from SOCIALIST PROGRAMS.

Don't worry about what "rights" I have when you defended this Country from Socialism, yet cry and bit ch for socialist money (for yourself only).

Ok, lets play by your rules... did you go to college?

[-Matt-]

Let's start with all legal citizens. You should call them your brothers too. Not only your fellow veterens.

If you hate the public so much, why did you risk it all to protect them?

I protect my CITIZENS my AMERICANS..... not the growing population of leaches that only come here for the benefits without giving anything positive to the society.

[Shora]

Ok, lets play by your rules... did you go to college?

I did. Paid my own way.

The Military is not for everyone, and its certainly not the only choice for those who love this Country.

[-Matt-]

I did. Paid my own way.


Ok, any grants or scholarships? Did you claim student expenses on your taxes?

[Rocknthehawk]

Guys...take a step back...and look at the topic.

I would hate to see this thread get closed because of a pissing contest on how whomever got to where they are.

[Shora]

Ok, any grants or scholarships? Did you claim student expenses on your taxes?

Scholarship and grants. Couldn't afford it otherwise. My School cost 33K yearly. I didn't want 100K debt so I kept my grades up.

[Shora]

Guys...take a step back...and look at the topic.

I would hate to see this thread get closed because of a pissing contest on how whomever got to where they are.

Agree.

Sorry for my part. It's a hot topic.

[1 Bad Merc]

Things would never have been so bad if we knew how to live within our means. We have already borrowed against s.s. for years and the bills are now coming due.

I just wish we could get some good people representation in the Senate and Congress who are only beholden to us instead of every Tom, Dick and Harry with cash!

If we are going to go this route and take care of Americans then it's about time we start putting tariffs on all import goods that come into this country, cut-off foreign aid to countries/people who dont support us, close the borders and find some people in government who realize you cant spend what you dont have! Then maybe we would have the money to take care of all our people.

Sorry for the rant..must get off the soapbox.

[Shora]

Things would never have been so bad if we knew how to live within our means. We have already borrowed against s.s. for years and the bills are now coming due.

Agree.

I just wish we could get some good people representation in the Senate and Congress who are only beholden to us instead of every Tom, Dick and Harry with cash!

Mostly, it's not Tom and Dicks cash, but the millions from Big Corps. They own your (our) politicians.

If we are going to go this route and take care of Americans then it's about time we start putting tariffs on all import goods that come into this country, cut-off foreign aid to countries/people who dont support us, close the borders and find some people in government who realize you cant spend what you dont have! Then maybe we would have the money to take care of all our people.

Agree (again).

Sorry for the rant..must get off the soapbox.

IMO,that was no rent.

[guspech750]

Things would never have been so bad if we knew how to live within our means. We have already borrowed against s.s. for years and the bills are now coming due.

I just wish we could get some good people representation in the Senate and Congress who are only beholden to us instead of every Tom, Dick and Harry with cash!

If we are going to go this route and take care of Americans then it's about time we start putting tariffs on all import goods that come into this country, cut-off foreign aid to countries/people who dont support us, close the borders and find some people in government who realize you cant spend what you dont have! Then maybe we would have the money to take care of all our people.

Sorry for the rant..must get off the soapbox.

I dont feel alone now. Thank you. I have been preaching this for many years. But no one likes to listen to the realities of what is going on around them. And now our "Change" is here.

[Vortex]

Not a great bill but a step in the right direction.

[guspech750]

10 states line up to sue over health bill, Florida AG says (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2477264/posts)
cnn ^ (http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/health.care.lawsuit/index.html?hpt=T1) | 3/22/2010 | cnn

Posted on Monday, March 22, 2010 5:08:37 PM by tobyhill (http://www.freerepublic.com/~tobyhill/)

Ten states plan to file a federal lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the new health care reform bill, Florida's attorney general announced Monday.
Bill McCollum, the Republican attorney general under fellow Republican Gov. Charlie Crist, told a news conference that the lawsuit would be filed once President Obama signs the health care bill into law. He said he'll be joined by his counterparts in Alabama, Nebraska, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah and Washington.
All of the attorneys general in the 10 states mentioned by McCollum are Republican, but McCollum said the lawsuit would be about the law and not politics. Also Monday, Virginia's Republican attorney general said his state would file a lawsuit challenging the health care bill. It was unclear if Virginia would join the other states or proceed on its own.

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com (http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/health.care.lawsuit/index.html?hpt=T1) ...



I thought I read that there are a total of 38 states getting ready to take down this crappy healthcare bill once President deuchbag signs it. Does anyone know all the states ready to take down DC's dumbest.

[Shora]

Not a great bill but a step in the right direction.

Another (bill) supporter who steps into the lion's den.

We are up to three. WOW.

[-Matt-]

Scholarship and grants. Couldn't afford it otherwise. My School cost 33K yearly. I didn't want 100K debt so I kept my grades up.

Ok good, the point i was making is that you used your RIGHT for funding the same as im using my RIGHT for VA benefits.



Don't worry about what "rights" I have when you defended this Country from Socialism, yet cry and bit ch for socialist money (for yourself only).

You used the same money you whine about me using here.

Ill expect an apology.

[1 Bad Merc]

I think we are all tired and upset with the crap our government keeps feeding us on a daily basis.

I think we Americans are starting to find out the true costs/real numbers and are very afraid that the American dream is being stripped away from us by unscrupulouse politicians who dont seem to care. It seems like everytime we turn around we are getting punished for succeeding in our own Country!

Most of the people I have met are decent, hardworking Americans who would bend over backwards to help out their neighbors in a time of need. Heck, we see it daily on this board alone!

So I really dont think the issue is about Americans taking care of Americans but of Americans feeling like they are going to get suckered on this political deal.

Just my opinion.

[guspech750]

The only thing I think we all should help pay for would be for people with disabilities, old retiries, veterans and hard working Legal citizens. But this bill has gone way over the line. Grrrrrrrr. WTF!!!

[-Matt-]

The only thing I think we all should help pay for would be for people with disabilities, old retiries, veterans and hard working Legal citizens. But this bill has gone way over the line. Grrrrrrrr. WTF!!!



Totally agree.

[Shora]

Ok good, the point i was making is that you used your RIGHT for funding the same as im using my RIGHT for VA benefits.



You used the same money you whine about me using here.

Ill expect an apology.

You don't get it so I'll make it more clear.

I am not against the VA. If it were up to me, it would be the envy of the World. Those who serve SHOULD get the best available bar non.

The difference between you and me is that "you" feel ONLY those who serve should have access to certain benefits while I feel that ALL should get accress to certain things, especially health care.

I am not Anti VA, S.S., or Medicare.

I am Anti those who receive the benefits of those programs, which happen to be Socialist, and preach AGAINST SOCIALISIM.


The only thing I think we all should help pay for would be for people with disabilities, old retiries, veterans and hard working Legal citizens. But this bill has gone way over the line. Grrrrrrrr. WTF!!!

We already pay for most of those. Just giving them some care now instead of only ER.

[Bigdogjim]

all 535 voting members of the Legislature,

It is now official you are ALL corrupt morons:

The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775.
You have had 234 years to get it right and it is
BROKE.

Social Security was established in 1935.
You have had 74 years to get it right and it is
BROKE.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938.
You have had 71 years to get it right and it is
BROKE.

War on Poverty started in 1964.
You have had 45 years to get it right;
1$ trillion of our money is confiscated each year and
transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965.
You have had 44 years to get it right and they are
BROKE.

Freddie Mac was established in 1970.
You have had 39 years to get it
right and it is
BROKE.
The Department of Energy was created in 1977
to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It has
ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24
billion a year and we import more oil than ever
before.
You had 32 years to get it right and it is
an abysmal FAILURE.

You have FAILED in every "government
service" you have shoved down our throats while
overspending our tax dollars.

AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU
CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN
HEALTH CARE SYSTEM??

[guspech750]

But now we are all paying for *****bags, welfare turds, illegal garbage, doctors and insurance companies double dipping. Just a few weeks ago my wifes doctors office sent us a bill from another patient for X amount of dollars. She called them on it and was treated like a P.O.S. and was told not to worry. So we contacted my union to notify them of the problem. And sure enough they beat us to it and my union had already paid the bill not knowing of the problem first. Found out the doctors office also charged the real patient too. My union fianally resolved it but how dare these practices double dip looking for more money. I dont blame them since most people would not give a crap and let it go.

[Pat]

I don't believe, at this point, it's going to affect me at all. But I just don't know for sure.

I'm on medicare and Tri-care for life. I'm nearly 71, life expectantcy is about 9 more years. So, I'll be pushing up daisey's when some of the provisions of this bill kick in.

See ya in the next life, and I'm driving my Marauder out..

[Vortex]

Dont know about anywhere else but the only new buildings I see in my town are either a) fast food places or b) diagnostic clinics. Im glad this bill passed. Frankly, Id prefer a not for profit healthcare system across the board (but that will never happen). If some folks dont like the new bill they can wait til the next election and vote out the people who voted for it. I think Rush/Beck/Teabaggers have their right to sound off, even if I think they are morons.

[Mr. Man]

The government creates these kooky bills because they know it will stir up a hornets nest within the press and the populace. Take a step back and think about what the government is really doing while you all are pissing and moaning about this dopey bill. I think what they are not talking about should make you all very afraid.

[Haggis]

Hail the Messiah
Hail President Obama
Hail to the Democratic Republic of America


IBTL

[CBT]

I very clearly remember being told (often) that free medical and dental benefits for life along with a retirement check were reasons I should join the military. At 17, I could care less about that crap. I wanted to see the world, preferably drunk, and hook up with women from around the world. Mission accomplished. Somewhere along the way it changed to free medical and dental while you are active duty, and you have to do at least 20 years for that retirement check, and when you retire you pay for medical and dental. Not full price, but still. My younger sister is a nurse in TN. She works with gals who are not quite nurses yet who DO NOT want to move up in thier field because they will lose all the freebies they get from the state and the government. It's rediculous!! I told my sis she should be a traveling RN, they make some serious cash. She looked into it but kept running into the same question; Do you speak Spanish? WTF?! As long as we remain a welfare state, the government will have to keep taking over things like health care, cars, retirement, and education, yet they don't promote coming heree legally or learning the language. Also, after 2 wars in the gulf during my time, why is gas not any cheaper? Why are we fighting Saudi Arabias wars for them? Secure the borders here, deport not support, drill for oil here and build more reactors, get the troops home, and we can afford health care for all. Vote for me in 2012, lol. But seriously, where is this hundreds of billions coming from to pay for this? The 1% of rich America? What is their business model for this, Bernie Madoffs Ponzi scheme?

[MERCMAN]

Well, this is a political thread and although we don't normally allow it, I will continue to let this run as long as comments are on track and no fights break out.

[SC Cheesehead]

Dont know about anywhere else but the only new buildings I see in my town are either a) fast food places or b) diagnostic clinics. Im glad this bill passed. Frankly, Id prefer a not for profit healthcare system across the board (but that will never happen). If some folks dont like the new bill they can wait til the next election and vote out the people who voted for it. I think Rush/Beck/Teabaggers have their right to sound off, even if I think they are morons.

My wife works for a local clinic, believe me, they're not too far from running as a not-for profit org.

They lose money on every Medicare/Medicaid patient they treat, and it looks like it's only going to get worse. :shake:

[LIGHTNIN1]

Bigdogjim and CBT, in his last post got it right in my opinion. Between Social Security and Medicaid there are 110 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities. That alone is more than our GDP. We have 2 wars going on,ever expanding government, we are still in a worldwide financial downturn, a lot lower revenues.No matter what they say this new bill will cost trillions. Everything they have ever done has always cost several times more than estimates. I work for one of the agencies Bigdog mentioned.Just on the local level there are 3 layers of management that do nothing.The health bill will be worse.They will have to build large new buildings across the U.S,buy a lot of cars, staff the buildings with many layers of people who do nothing at high salaries and benefits. The cost administratively is endless. A lot of cost will go into administering the program. Plus in Washington they want to rush through many more of these programs, Cap and trade, global warming, amnesty. All these will require the same. At some point the bank breaks.

[CBT]

I think opening up the interstate insurance option may help. More competition should drive down the cost some. What I am leery of is the fact that the American Medical Association and and some other big names are behind this bill. When giant corporations back something, there HAS to be a profit in it for them, which means the little people take it in the shorts.


Bigdogjim and CBT, in his last post got it right in my opinion. Between Social Security and Medicaid there are 110 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities. That alone is more than our GDP. We have 2 wars going on,ever expanding government, we are still in a worldwide financial downturn, a lot lower revenues.No matter what they say this new bill will cost trillions. Everything they have ever done has always cost several times more than estimates. I work for one of the agencies Bigdog mentioned.Just on the local level there are 3 layers of management that do nothing.The health bill will be worse.They will have to build large new buildings across the U.S,buy a lot of cars, staff the buildings with many layers of people who do nothing at high salaries and benefits. The cost administratively is endless. A lot of cost will go into administering the program. Plus in Washington they want to rush through many more of these programs, Cap and trade, global warming, amnesty. All these will require the same. At some point the bank breaks.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Don't know whether you knew it or not but only about 20% of doctors are a member of the AMA. It probably started out good but has turned into a political lobbying group. You are right, lots of much less expensive things could have taken care of a lot of the problems, but then they would not have been able to grow government that way. It is like me going to a dentist one time needing one tooth fixed.He wanted to do something to every tooth I had. No deal.

[guspech750]

My wife works for a local clinic, believe me, they're not too far from running as a not-for profit org.

They lose money on every Medicare/Medicaid patient they treat, and it looks like it's only going to get worse. :shake:
Same here. My wifes been a ER nurse, Surgical Heart nurse, and now a Recovery Room nurse. She too has seen how hospitals are not getting paid from Medicare and others. Most of the patients that do pay are now having there surguries and other procedures at the doctors private practices while the others meaning the ones who can not pay or can only pay little amounts are going to the hospitals. Hence why hospitals are loosing so much money. Government is not paying them. A lot of the doctors she works with have been refusing to see patients that use Medicareand others because they have not been paid for their services.

[Ozark Marauder]

It isn't about health care, It's about you...control you...you are here now to serve the state, they have now mandated it. It's now determined that health care is a RIGHT, they said , not a priveldge, OK, then we want our rights, but you will not get it because it is a false promise from the statists to trample on our property rights....The bottom line...I'll let Karl Marx tell you.......

Remember

The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.....John Adams

[dakslim]

Correct me if I'm wrong but SS was started by FDR and was strictly voluntary in the beginning. Eventually it became mandatory but the monies collected were put in a special fund that would only be used for SS payouts. Along comes President Johnson who decided that the govt. could sure use all this money that's just sitting there collecting interest so "poof" instant money to squander.

I've said it a million times too, make income tax a flat tax for everyone no exceptions and you could overnight, do away with the IRS.

[SC Cheesehead]

It isn't about health care, It's about you...control you...you are here now to serve the state, they have now mandated it. It's now determined that health care is a RIGHT, they said , not a priveldge, OK, then we want our rights, but you will not get it because it is a false promise from the statists to trample on our property rights....The bottom line...I'll let Karl Marx tell you.......

Remember

The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence.....John Adams

spot on.

"To each according to his contribution...is considered a characteristic of society directly following the transition to socialism, but preceding the final step to communism...During the higher phase of communism, the standard shall be "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_each_according_to_his_contr ibution


Yep, here's what we can look forward to...

http://gopcapitalist.tripod.com/socialistmyth.html

[CBT]

Correct me if I'm wrong but SS was started by FDR and was strictly voluntary in the beginning. Eventually it became mandatory but the monies collected were put in a special fund that would only be used for SS payouts. Along comes President Johnson who decided that the govt. could sure use all this money that's just sitting there collecting interest so "poof" instant money to squander.

I've said it a million times too, make income tax a flat tax for everyone no exceptions and you could overnight, do away with the IRS.
I think Johnson started Medicare and Medicaid.

[CBT]

I'm all for helping the older folks who paid into the system, they've earned it. Relax, retire, enjoy doing nothing after the age of 65 if you want. But something happened, the age keeps getting raised, what's up with that? Just because the life expectancy went up? So what? That's like punishing you for living longer. Freeloaders with no skills and no education and no contributions to these systems should get as much back as they put in: Nothing. Injured on the job is one thing, injured for doing meth is another. There needs to be guidelines.

[Vortex]

Im in the middle of the road on this general issue. I approve the bill but there are a few things I agree with the Republicans on. I agree we need interstate insurance companies. Some kind of tort reform is in order (remember back when there were no lawyer ads on tv?, even better, remember when there were no prescription drug ads on tv?) Re Medicare/Medicaid its true some doctors and hospitals arent excepting it but Ive read its because the government refuses to pay above the standard rate for services and some of these places are wanting to charge alot more, order unneeded c.y.a. tests or other stuff. The sytem is far from perfect. Number one problem is to quit providing free medical care to the uninsured. Under the new bill, everyone should have insurance, including the younger, healthier people who (like SSA) will support the system until they get older. Which brings me to an important related point, we have to get a handle on all these illegal aliens. In my county (Dallas) we have Parkland Hospital and its a giveaway for illegals. I read the county now wants to build a new more modern hospital. I believe if we posted two INS SAs at the emergency room door we could save the taxpayers a ton of money. There is absolutely no reason (other than a lack of political will from EITHER party) that the southern border of the US is not physically controlled with fences and guardposts. Im not blaming Mexicans, they are hard working folks, probably the hardest working, but weve got to stop them from crossing the border illegally. I used to arrest illegals, we could send them across the border and they would be back in a week. Thats a fact. Back to the medical bill yeah, its generally down to do you believe every American has a right to some sort of healthcare. Its easy when you have a job and insurance to say let them fend for themselves but times can get rough for anyone. You, your sister, your parents could be next. There was alot of screaming when Medicare started, all the same hysteria. Now its pretty much agreed it is a great program that isnt going to change. Funding issues will be addressed, you can be sure. I hope over time this new healthcare bill is a sucess as well.

[Motorhead350]

Damn straight. Ill put all my money in a shoe box!! Pay my bills with cash or money orders!!

I do that and my bank hates it.

:lol:

[Joe Walsh]

Perfectly put. I might as well just quit my job. Government run anything is bad. Funny how the government runs mortgages, auto industry, banking, and healthcare. Socialist country my a$$. How about communist.

Maybe not everything the government runs is bad, but it sure as heck is not efficient and always ends up costing TRILLIONS of dollars!


all 535 voting members of the Legislature,

It is now official you are ALL corrupt morons:

The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775.
You have had 234 years to get it right and it is
BROKE.

Social Security was established in 1935.
You have had 74 years to get it right and it is
BROKE.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938.
You have had 71 years to get it right and it is
BROKE.

War on Poverty started in 1964.
You have had 45 years to get it right;
1$ trillion of our money is confiscated each year and
transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965.
You have had 44 years to get it right and they are
BROKE.

Freddie Mac was established in 1970.
You have had 39 years to get it
right and it is
BROKE.
The Department of Energy was created in 1977
to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It has
ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24
billion a year and we import more oil than ever
before.
You had 32 years to get it right and it is
an abysmal FAILURE.

You have FAILED in every "government
service" you have shoved down our throats while
overspending our tax dollars.

AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU
CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN
HEALTH CARE SYSTEM??


OK, just about everything the government runs is bad.

Our only hope, whether you are a Democrat, Republican, or an Independent is to:

VOTE EVERY INCUMBENT OUT OF OFFICE THIS NOVEMBER!
They are dug in 'like ticks on a hound' and will never leave Washington once they get there little kingdoms set up!

[CBT]

Isn't that where Kennedy was taken after he was shot? If so, I've read about the problems there. It's an "anchor baby" drop.


Im in the middle of the road on this general issue. I approve the bill but there are a few things I agree with the Republicans on. I agree we need interstate insurance companies. Some kind of tort reform is in order (remember back when there were no lawyer ads on tv?, even better, remember when there were no prescription drug ads on tv?) Re Medicare/Medicaid its true some doctors and hospitals arent excepting it but Ive read its because the government refuses to pay above the standard rate for services and some of these places are wanting to charge alot more, order unneeded c.y.a. tests or other stuff. The sytem is far from perfect. Number one problem is to quit providing free medical care to the uninsured. Under the new bill, everyone should have insurance, including the younger, healthier people who (like SSA) will support the system until they get older. Which brings me to an important related point, we have to get a handle on all these illegal aliens. In my county (Dallas) we have Parkland Hospital and its a giveaway for illegals. I read the county now wants to build a new more modern hospital. I believe if we posted two INS SAs at the emergency room door we could save the taxpayers a ton of money. There is absolutely no reason (other than a lack of political will from EITHER party) that the southern border of the US is not physically controlled with fences and guardposts. Im not blaming Mexicans, they are hard working folks, probably the hardest working, but weve got to stop them from crossing the border illegally. I used to arrest illegals, we could send them across the border and they would be back in a week. Thats a fact. Back to the medical bill yeah, its generally down to do you believe every American has a right to some sort of healthcare. Its easy when you have a job and insurance to say let them fend for themselves but times can get rough for anyone. You, your sister, your parents could be next. There was alot of screaming when Medicare started, all the same hysteria. Now its pretty much agreed it is a great program that isnt going to change. Funding issues will be addressed, you can be sure. I hope over time this new healthcare bill is a sucess as well.

[dakslim]

I do that and my bank hates it.

:lol:

Did you ever see the photos of the Germans with wheelbarrows full of Deutsche Marks they needed to pay for bread during the Weimar Republic before the Nazis took over? The way this govt. keeps printing money we will be in the same boat! Putting it under the mattress ain't gonna help!

[Vortex]

Isn't that where Kennedy was taken after he was shot? If so, I've read about the problems there. It's an "anchor baby" drop.

You are correct on both accounts.

[SC Cheesehead]

Did you ever see the photos of the Germans with wheelbarrows full of Deutsche Marks they needed to pay for bread during the Weimar Republic before the Nazis took over? The way this govt. keeps printing money we will be in the same boat! Putting it under the mattress ain't gonna help!

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://www.insidesocal.com/tomhoffarth/wheelbarrow-mutilated-728910.jpg&usg=AFQjCNEw84GICR1PM56aWSbfG7 gBFKUg3A


^^^^^^ What Phil said ^^^^^^

[CBT]

You are correct on both accounts.
Yeah that place was on the news months ago, nurses where quitting out of frustration, saying it was one big maternity ward where no one spoke English.

[SC Cheesehead]

Just had this passed along to me...

[Joe Walsh]

Thomas Jefferson:

"I predict future happiness for Americans
if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

[dakslim]

Just had this passed along to me...

My bumper will never see a sticker but if it did it wouldn't have one of those on it!:shake:

[LIGHTNIN1]

Correct me if I'm wrong but SS was started by FDR and was strictly voluntary in the beginning. Eventually it became mandatory but the monies collected were put in a special fund that would only be used for SS payouts. Along comes President Johnson who decided that the govt. could sure use all this money that's just sitting there collecting interest so "poof" instant money to squander.

I've said it a million times too, make income tax a flat tax for everyone no exceptions and you could overnight, do away with the IRS.

The same thing is going to happen here ,it is planned. They saw all this money out there and are going after it. I just heard that the Amish and Christain Scientist are exempt. I don't know if that is true but if so guess I will be changing religions. How much time will they put into proving you are not.

[Hotrauder]

This will really piss off our Canadian members as they will have no place to go for health care.....:beer: Dennis:D

[rayjay]

Uhm, I have not read the responses here. It was going to be rammed down our throats come hell or high water regardless.

I am 6 months, 3 weeks from retiring. My guess is sometime in the next 4-5 years I'll have to return to work full time to afford health care.

[Hotrauder]

Uhm, I have not read the responses here. It was going to be rammed down our throats come hell or high water regardless.

I am 6 months, 3 weeks from retiring. My guess is sometime in the next 4-5 years I'll have to return to work full time to afford health care.


Ray, Medicare is bankrupt, Social Security is bankrupt, the Federal government has an unpaid mandate now of several years gross domestic product plus 14 trillion $ in current deficit. New York State is in critical need of life support. You may need several jobs just to eat.....I hope I am full of it but frightened to death I am not. Having lived 36 years in upstate NY I hope to God I am wrong. Dennis

[Pat]

I don't seem to have a dog in this fight. Uncle Sugar has taken care of me and mine since I joined in Marines (later the Air Force) in 1956. I'm coddled. All I can say is "Thanks Uncle Sam", you kept your promise.

Of course, when you take the "King's" pay you DO the "King's" work.

Regards,

[Joe Walsh]

New Political Party.

Not Democrat, Not Republican, Not Independent.

It's called the "PISSED OFF PARTY" (or POP).

This party is dedicated to vote every incumbent out of office in the next elections.

If you're Democrat, vote Democrat. Just don't vote for the incumbent.

If you're Republican, vote Republican. Just don't vote for the incumbent..

We need to send a message to all politicians, that we're tired of their B.S.

If the country votes out all the incumbents, the new incoming politicians will get the message.

It's pretty simple. Nobody needs to change parties and lets face it, there's plenty of blame to spread around.

A few good politicians will lose their job but they already have better retirement and insurance then 95% of the American public.

You've had to struggle for the last 5 years.. Some of you have lost your job and may be working in some other sector just to feed your family.

I guarantee you, none of them will suffer like this country has.

We tried term limits...but they got overturned.....by guess who....

Yet.....somehow the Presidency is under term limits.

We have been too dumb and lazy to force these 'lifetime politicians' out.

We keep pulling the lever for the same familiar name and we keep getting the same old *****!

We need to save our nation from Congress and the Senate!!!

:mad2:

[rayjay]

Ray, Medicare is bankrupt, Social Security is bankrupt, the Federal government has an unpaid mandate now of several years gross domestic product plus 14 trillion $ in current deficit. New York State is in critical need of life support. You may need several jobs just to eat.....I hope I am full of it but frightened to death I am not. Having lived 36 years in upstate NY I hope to God I am wrong. Dennis

My only real concern is the cost of health care. They pretty much held the line this year, only went up a couple bucks a pay period. The future worries me when I'm on a fixed income from my pension. 34 years of stress has taken a major toll on my health.

[MrBluGruv]

Overall, I'm opposed to the bill. It's hard enough to imagine trying to break into the workforce as it is, but now I have another guaranteed bill that'll take away from my already guaranteed low starting income. And personally, I could care less for the time being about having health insurance. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been to a hospital or to even just visit my doctor in the past 4 to 5 years, it's just not a huge issue for me. I'm pretty sure THAT wasn't factored into the statistics of "uninsured Americans".

But even if I want to like this bill, one thing is for certain: if this plan is to work in theory, that theory is based on the rest of the existing system functioning ideally, which is obviously very far from the truth. I think the nicest way anyone with a realistic view of things could critique Obama right now is to say that he needs a reality check (and anyone else tied with the push for this bill). Of course, that's only the nicest thing, most would go downhill from there... :P

[CBT]

What if companies say screw it it's too expensive, and drop medical coverage for everyone, but don't increase thier salary. Then, everyone will get fined for not having coverage on top of trying to afford coverage. :confused:

[vkirkend]

I don't believe, at this point, it's going to affect me at all. But I just don't know for sure.

I'm on medicare and Tri-care for life. I'm nearly 71, life expectantcy is about 9 more years. So, I'll be pushing up daisey's when some of the provisions of this bill kick in.

See ya in the next life, and I'm driving my Marauder out..


Now That's the right attitude!!!!!;)

[CBT]

Remember at the state of the union, when Obama lambasted the Supreme Court members who were sitting there for overruling the finance reform act? Well they are going to ultimately decide whether the Federal government can mandate citizens to buy something. You know what they say about payback.

[CBT]

Canada and the UK are Single Payer, what Pres Obama has said he is a proponent of in 2003 & 2007.
In Canada the median wait time after seeing your GP to get treatment 4.5 months. The Pres of the CMA said their system is imploding.
In the UK the male Cancer survival rate is 44% vs USA 63%, or very 100 men in USA who get cancer 66 live vs 44 in UK. That equals 120,000 men very year are alive in the USA who would be DEAD had they lived in the UK.
France is Single Payer. Heat wave in August they refused to recall their Drs on vacation resulting in the needless deaths of over 18,000.
If my insurance or Medicare refuses to pay I can still get the treatment. I can pay for it myself, seek a charity, hold a fudn raiser, borrow the money or work out a payment plan. Under Pres Obama's plan the Gov't determines what treatments you get based on your age and not your spirit.

The USA has the highest Cancer survival rates in the World and we have a diverse population wherein certain groups are highly prone to different Cancers vs other Nations w/ homogenous groups tending towards specific cancers that can be targeted.

In Canada how many die waiting median 4.5 months for treatment after they wait to see their GP?

The Cancer Survival Rate is the % alive 5 years after having been diagnosed with Cancer.
Mortality factors such as different auto accident fatality rates have been factored in to compare those who survive Cancer. Chernobyl is not in the UK, nor was Russia one of the comparison countries of the study I am citing.
It is not the Cancer incident rate.
The USA has a higher Cancer Survivor rate, which is a direct reflection of the quality of health care than;
Canada, Iceland, Sweden, Belgium, Finland, Swiss, Italy, Spain, Germany, Norway, Netherlands, Malta, Austria, Wales, Solvinia, England, Ireland, Nothern Ireland, Czech, Poland and Scottland.
From the BBC, hardly as you say a "think tank"
"Huge gap in world cancer survival

Access to diagnostic equipment is key, say experts
There is a huge variation in cancer survival rates across the world, a global study shows.
The US, Australia, Canada, France and Japan had the highest five-year survival rates, while Algeria had the worst, Lancet Oncology reported.
The UK fared pretty poorly, trailing most of its western European neighbours - although the data is from the 1990s since when survival rates have risen.
Spending on health care was a major factor, the study of 31 countries said.
Researchers said higher spending often meant quicker access to tests and treatment.
The report is the first major study to compare cancer survival across five continents and has highlighted the stark differences in survival between poor and wealthy countries
Dr Lesley Walker, of Cancer Research UK
The research was carried out by more than 100 scientists across the world led by Professor Michel Coleman, of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.
It involved analysing data on more than two million cancer patients who were diagnosed and treated during the 1990s. "
Go to Canada and wait to see your GP and then wait 4.5 months for treatment. If you have a condition that has met it's budget for the year no treatment until next budget.

From another "think tank"
"Cancer Survival Rates Vary by Country
Study Shows U.S., Japan, and France Have Highest Cancer Survival Rates
By Kathleen Doheny
WebMD Health NewsReviewed by Louise Chang, MDJuly 16, 2008 -- Where you live plays a role in cancer survival, according to a new study that shows the U.S., Japan, and France recorded the highest survival rates among 31 nations for four types of cancer. Algeria had the lowest survival rates for all four cancers."

USA has the highest obesity rate in the World, but lets blame healthcare on HEART DISEASE?
USA is the only country were an estimated 25% of Drs are sued every year!
We are such a wealthy country we have lots of fat people having lots of health problems and some blame healthcare!
Health Insurance, Healthcare and Health are 3 different things that some interchange in order to twist the truth.
If I get cancer, there is only one Nation I want to be treated in and that is the USA.
In the UK, Drs & Nurses stand on street corners w/ a bucket and a bell begging for daily expenses.

Since wage controls were put on during WWII employers have been paying for health insurance w/ pre-tax dollars. If my employer paid for food insurance we would have a problem with the cost of food. The consumer does not directly pay for the service, how many times do you see a price on any healthcare item at the provider?
Healthcare reform means Tort Reform and giving individuals the pre-tax benefit that employers provide to buy health insurance.
Pres Obama is againest Tort Reform and giving individuals the same pretax benefit that employers provide.
Pres Obama is not for healthcare reform. He is for taking over 16% of our economy to end healthcare in the last year of life, saving 8% of our economy which pays for his $11.4 Trillion ten year Debt Incerase.
Pres Obama - "I don't think that we can make judgments based on people's spirit. That would be a pretty subjective decision to be making" "...we're not going to solve every difficult problem in terms of end-of-life care; a lot of that is going to have to be we as a culture and as a society starting to make better decisions within our own families and for ourselves. But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that's not making anybody's mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know, and your mom know, that you know what, maybe this isn't going to help, maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller."

I do not want Gov't deciding what , when and who gets healthcare as a matter of LAW. This is what Pres Obama's 2,700 page 110+ New Commission Bill does.

Per USA Today Federal workers make $42K more in pay & benefits than the private sector equivalent. How is hiring Gov't workers going to reduce cost.

For reference United Health Care insures 70M w/ a staff of 75K. How many new IRS agents are being hire just to collect the money?

[nomad]

Why can't we just get the same insurance coverage our over-payed,be-holding to lobbyist, elected officials get?

After all, they work for us,right??

(I know, I'm naive) :argue:

[LIGHTNIN1]

The State of theUnion was historic in the way that never before had a President made fun of Supreme court members.How childish.Shows lack of character. Last week Justice Roberts brought that event up at a speech he made.
As far as healthcare if you need anything like cancer or heart treatments you will have to travel somewhere else.There was a guy on tv this morning from Canada that needed a simple back operation. He was in 24 hour pain and could not sleep. He was told there they would look at him in 3 years. Came here, recieved operation quickly,now fine with no pain. This healthcare system has been a disaster everywhere its been tried.
If it is so good why did the people who wrote the bill exempt themselves from it? Obama claims 127 people a day die from not having healthcare here.Why is he making all those people wait till after the next presidential election to recieve any care? Everyone should demand this great care NOW!

[W4LTD]

In the UK the male Cancer survival rate is 44% vs USA 63%, or very 100 men in USA who get cancer 66 live vs 44 in UK.


:confused: Huh? :rolleyes:

[LeoVampire]

The only thing I think we all should help pay for would be for people with disabilities, old retiries, veterans and hard working Legal citizens. But this bill has gone way over the line. Grrrrrrrr. WTF!!!

It will be nice to finaly be able to get the insurance I need to cover my medical bills and help pay for my medications.

I have been denied for years now getting extra coverage due to my preexisting condition or they insist that I pay for the insurance a year before they will start to cover a dime of anything preexisting and I would still have a $3,000.00 spend down each year before they would share the costs with Medicare.

Even Medicare make's me do a $1,000.00 spend down each year before they cover stuff and they do not pay for it all and I am supose to pick up the slack.

And now that there is no more cost of living increases for SSI but medicare coverage will still be going up each year that was starting to make me nervous.

Granted the cost of living increase was not much but Medicare went up with it each time so I was lucky to see an extra $15.00 each MONTH which needless to say dosn't pay for much.

I feel sorry for the elderly forced to live of of SSI alone because getting $1,000.00 a month sure as hell isn't **** now a days.

I was lucky and had a job that coverd their emplyee's for life if you became disabled and get pay through that as well but it was still a $25,000.00 a year pay cut even with SSI as well.

But I have to admit it is not right to make everyone pay for the coverage especialy if they already have coverage that handles what they need.

[Blackened300a]

It will be nice to finaly be able to get the insurance I need to cover my medical bills and help pay for my medications.

I have been denied for years now getting extra coverage due to my preexisting condition or they insist that I pay for the insurance a year before they will start to cover a dime of anything preexisting and I would still have a $3,000.00 spend down each year before they would share the costs with Medicare.

Even Medicare make's me do a $1,000.00 spend down each year before they cover stuff and they do not pay for it all and I am supose to pick up the slack.

And now that there is no more cost of living increases for SSI but medicare coverage will still be going up each year that was starting to make me nervous.

Granted the cost of living increase was not much but Medicare went up with it each time so I was lucky to see an extra $15.00 each MONTH which needless to say dosn't pay for much.

I feel sorry for the elderly forced to live of of SSI alone because getting $1,000.00 a month sure as hell isn't **** now a days.

I was lucky and had a job that coverd their emplyee's for life if you became disabled and get pay through that as well but it was still a $25,000.00 a year pay cut even with SSI as well.

But I have to admit it is not right to make everyone pay for the coverage especialy if they already have coverage that handles what they need.

I do agree that this bill will help you in your case that you shouldn't be denied for a pre-existing condition. How can you be treated if you have a issue that they will not cover you for?
There are some instances where this will help the people who need it the most, but the fact that people are forced to get health care and now will be taxed to make this happen is insane and un-constitutional.

You would think the un-employment issue or perhaps this billion dollar a day war we are involved in would be the first thing to get worked out besides taxing the american people even more.

[LeoVampire]

I do agree that this bill will help you in your case that you shouldn't be denied for a pre-existing condition. How can you be treated if you have a issue that they will not cover you for?
There are some instances where this will help the people who need it the most, but the fact that people are forced to get health care and now will be taxed to make this happen is insane and un-constitutional.

You would think the un-employment issue or perhaps this billion dollar a day war we are involved in would be the first thing to get worked out besides taxing the american people even more.

We need to stop helping other country's and look to our own!

We need to stop a war that does nothing for our country!

We need to stop asking people to send their money over sea's to help thier needy when we are also the one's hurting.

We need to stop allowing products from comming into our country without proper payment for the right to sell it here!

We need to stop looking away @ the people living in the street and asking for money to eat!

We need to stop giving credit to people unless it is for an item like a car or a house where it is hard to come up with that type of money! Save and buy your new T.V. you want and furniture. No longer should people be able to rack up large debts they can not pay for if they already are paying for a house and or a car.

We need to stop big business company's from profiting off of our health problems!

We need to stop letting people buy something made outside of the U.S. and causing so many business to close and so many job's to be lost.

We need to stop people who live here illegaly from getting benifits that was supose to be for American's. Register and get a green card and show you truly want to be here or you are not intitled to get help!

We need to stop the Government from doing things without a majority vote from the people for permission because it is supose to be FOR THE PEOPLE BY THE PEOPLE in times of Peace.

[W4LTD]

We need to get rid of each and every lobbyist! :eek:

[Phrog_gunner]

We need to get rid of each and every lobbyist! :eek:

At least the lobbyists have a JOB and arent asking for handouts. ;)

[W4LTD]

At least the lobbyists have a JOB and arent asking for handouts. ;)

You're not actually saying that you believe lobbying helps our country? Are you?
:rolleyes:

[Phrog_gunner]

You're not actually saying that you believe lobbying helps our country? Are you?
:rolleyes:

Not at all. But at this point at least they are putting into the federal money pot via their personal salaries, not the worst of our problems right now.

[W4LTD]

By The Associated Press
The Associated Press
Monday, March 22, 2010; 12:22 PM
-- Congress approved a major overhaul of the nation's health care system for President Barack Obama's signature. Here are some of the features of the legislation.

HOW MANY COVERED: 32 million uninsured. Major coverage expansion begins in 2014. When fully phased in, 94 percent of eligible non-elderly Americans would have coverage, compared with 83 percent today.

COST: $938 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

INSURANCE MANDATE: Almost everyone is required to be insured or else pay a fine, which takes effect in 2014. There is an exemption for low-income people.

INSURANCE MARKET REFORMS: Starting this year, insurers would be forbidden from placing lifetime dollar limits on policies, from denying coverage to children because of pre-existing conditions, and from canceling policies because someone gets sick. Parents would be able to keep older kids on their coverage up to age 26. A new high-risk pool would offer coverage to uninsured people with medical problems until 2014, when the coverage expansion goes into high gear. Major consumer safeguards would also take effect in 2014. Insurers would be prohibited from denying coverage to people with medical problems or charging them more. Insurers could not charge women more.



MEDICAID: Expands the federal-state Medicaid insurance program for the poor to cover people with incomes up to 133 percent of the federal poverty level, $29,327 a year for a family of four. Childless adults would be covered for the first time, starting in 2014. The federal government would pay 100 percent of costs for covering newly eligible individuals through 2016.

If the Senate approves a package of changes this week, a special deal that would have given Nebraska 100 percent federal financing for newly eligible Medicaid recipients in perpetuity would be eliminated. A different, one-time deal negotiated by Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu for her state, Louisiana, worth as much as $300 million, remains.

TAXES: To make up for the lost revenue, the bill applies an increased Medicare payroll tax to the investment income and to the wages of individuals making more than $200,000, or married couples above $250,000. The tax on investment income would be 3.8 percent. If the Senate follows through, it would impose a 40 percent tax on high-cost insurance plans above the threshold of $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for families. The tax would go into effect in 2018.

PRESCRIPTION DRUGS: Gradually closes the "doughnut hole" coverage gap in the Medicare prescription drug benefit that seniors fall into once they have spent $2,830. Seniors who hit the gap this year will receive a $250 rebate. Beginning in 2011, seniors in the gap receive a discount on brand name drugs, initially 50 percent off. When the gap is completely eliminated in 2020, seniors will still be responsible for 25 percent of the cost of their medications until Medicare's catastrophic coverage kicks in.

EMPLOYER RESPONSIBILITY: Employers are hit with a fee if the government subsidizes their workers' coverage. The $2,000-per-employee fee would be assessed on the company's entire work force, minus an allowance. Companies with 50 or fewer workers are exempt from the requirement.

SUBSIDIES: The aid is available on a sliding scale for households making up to four times the federal poverty level, $88,200 for a family of four. Premiums for a family of four making $44,000 would be capped at around 6 percent of income.

HOW YOU CHOOSE YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE: Small businesses, the self-employed and the uninsured could pick a plan offered through new state-based purchasing pools called exchanges, opening for business in 2014. The exchanges would offer the same kind of purchasing power that employees of big companies benefit from. People working for medium-to-large firms would not see major changes. But if they lose their jobs or strike out on their own, they may be eligible for subsidized coverage through the exchange.

GOVERNMENT-RUN PLAN: No government-run insurance plan. People purchasing coverage through the new insurance exchanges would have the option of signing up for national plans overseen by the federal office that manages the health plans available to members of Congress. Those plans would be private, but one would have to be nonprofit.

ABORTION: The bill tries to maintain a strict separation between taxpayer dollars and private premiums that would pay for abortion coverage. No health plan would be required to offer coverage for abortion. In plans that do cover abortion, policyholders would have to pay for it separately, and that money would have to be kept in a separate account from taxpayer money. States could ban abortion coverage in plans offered through the exchange. Exceptions would be made for cases of rape, incest and danger to the life of the mother.

GOP HEALTH CARE SUMMIT IDEAS: Following a bipartisan health care summit last month, Obama announced he was open to incorporating several Republican ideas into his legislation. But two of the principle ones - hiring investigators to pose as patients and search for fraud at hospitals and increasing spending for medical malpractice reform initiatives - did not make it into the legislation. The legislation incorporates only one, an increase in payments to primary care physicians under Medicaid, an idea mentioned by Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa.

[Phrog_gunner]

I'm no mathologist, but increasing the amount of people covered but don't pay for it, increasing quality of care, and decreasing cost at the same time, just does not add up.

[CBT]

HOW MANY COVERED: 32 million uninsured. Major coverage expansion begins in 2014. When fully phased in, 94 percent of eligible non-elderly Americans would have coverage, compared with 83 percent today.

COST: $938 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

So 93 billion a year for 32 million? How freakin' sick are these people?!

[Spectragod]

So 93 billion a year for 32 million? How freakin' sick are these people?!

They're not sick, they go to the ER for everything. Go hang out there sometime, they go for toothaches and other silly $h!t. It's all about them, they can wait all day....... they don't work.:mad2:

[Mr. Man]

You guys all seem to have good opinions pro/con about the current state of affairs. I pose a query and I ask this in all seriousness. Why do the people in Washington do what they do? Who benefits? Do you really think Nancy Pelosi gives two rats a**es about illegal aliens at the ER door or anywhere else for that matter? Why do the power elite in Washington politics not seem to care what the National debt is? Bigger the better it would seem. Do you really think Pelosi cares if we have health insurance or not? There seems to me to be a bigger picture that we don't see. Kind of like all these things...health care, immigration, national debt, welfare reform etc are individual trees but we are missing the forest.
I was thinking last night about the robber barons of the 20' and 30's, Rockefeller, Mellon, Carnegie and the rest. To them money was a bonus it was all about power to them. The more power they had the more influence they had. So who are today's world power elite? It's not Pelosi or Obama or any of the other leaders of the worlds countries, they are just pawns in this game. Who are these modern day industrialists and what is their ultimate agenda? I'm leaning long term, one world power set up as an oligarchy type government.
I know I sound conspiritualistic but there should be a reason for the direction this country and others are taking.

[Leadfoot281]

You guys all seem to have good opinions pro/con about the current state of affairs. I pose a query and I ask this in all seriousness. Why do the people in Washington do what they do? Who benefits? Do you really think Nancy Pelosi gives two rats a**es about illegal aliens at the ER door or anywhere else for that matter? Why do the power elite in Washington politics not seem to care what the National debt is? Bigger the better it would seem. Do you really think Pelosi cares if we have health insurance or not? There seems to me to be a bigger picture that we don't see. Kind of like all these things...health care, immigration, national debt, welfare reform etc are individual trees but we are missing the forest.
I was thinking last night about the robber barons of the 20' and 30's, Rockefeller, Mellon, Carnegie and the rest. To them money was a bonus it was all about power to them. The more power they had the more influence they had. So who are today's world power elite? It's not Pelosi or Obama or any of the other leaders of the worlds countries, they are just pawns in this game. Who are these modern day industrialists and what is their ultimate agenda? I'm leaning long term, one world power set up as an oligarchy type government.
I know I sound conspiritualistic but there should be a reason for the direction this country and others are taking.

Good question. My answer is simple; Ego.

I feel that these people do not like to consider themselves as 'public servants'. They prefer to think of themselves as tycoons, industialists, Kings, and Queens.

Just look at this bill. The Republicans didn't want it. The Dems didn't want it. The States didn't want it, the overwhelming majority of Americans didn't want it. Only one person wanted it and he had to bully and bribe his own party to get it. All in the name of ego. Pure and simple.

With the passage of this bill they have stopped being our servants and become our masters. We are now under their thumbs. We've lost our power over them. They will give us "free stuff" until we're softer, dumber, and weaker than ever before. We'll be much easier to control and manipulate.

Control over us will feed their limit less egos. Each of us will eventually request them for our own stuff back without even knowing it was ours to begin with. Well pay 'em $3000 in taxes and get $1000 back and think it's a great deal. People will no longer know how to live without them. When that happens we've become North Korea. That's where this is all headed.

They don't need the Mansions of Carnegie, Mellon, or Rockefeller to impress their peers. They have the booze filled private jets. They have more power, control and influence of all of them combined as well.

[LeoVampire]

Good question. My answer is simple; Ego.

I feel that these people do not like to consider themselves as 'public servants'. They prefer to think of themselves as tycoons, industialists, Kings, and Queens.

Just look at this bill. The Republicans didn't want it. The Dems didn't want it. The States didn't want it, the overwhelming majority of Americans didn't want it. Only one person wanted it and he had to bully and bribe his own party to get it. All in the name of ego. Pure and simple.

With the passage of this bill they have stopped being our servants and become our masters. We are now under their thumbs. We've lost our power over them. They will give us "free stuff" until we're softer, dumber, and weaker than ever before. We'll be much easier to control and manipulate.

Control over us will feed their limit less egos. Each of us will eventually request them for our own stuff back without even knowing it was ours to begin with. Well pay 'em $3000 in taxes and get $1000 back and think it's a great deal. People will no longer know how to live without them. When that happens we've become North Korea. That's where this is all headed.

They don't need the Mansions of Carnegie, Mellon, or Rockefeller to impress their peers. They have the booze filled private jets. They have more power, control and influence of all of them combined as well.


That happend a long time ago and we already got lost in that shuffle didn't you see the memo the government had the news media show us on T.V. when you were a child?

[Mr. Man]

I still think there is a global power conglomerate pulling the strings although it be quietly. Why doesn't anybody seem to care that the deficit is 1.5 trillion:eek: and the debt is 12-14 trillion that's $14,000,000,000,000.:eek: No one even bats an eye anymore when they say "It's only 2 billion":eek: We"re missing something

[Gryphonzus]

MY half cent worth (if it is eeven worth that anymore Thanks to Uncle Sam). If the Government gets involved with it it will fail. Like the man above said look at our deficit now!!

[LeoVampire]

I still think there is a global power conglomerate pulling the strings although it be quietly. Why doesn't anybody seem to care that the deficit is 1.5 trillion:eek: and the debt is 12-14 trillion that's $14,000,000,000,000.:eek: No one even bats an eye anymore when they say "It's only 2 billion":eek: We"re missing something

If we are all in debt why shouldn't the country be as well?

Kind of hard to critisize what we do personaly so most keep their yap's shut about it.

Clinton had it all fixed, national debt wise, and a couple of yo yo's in the country and out side of the country screwed it all up again in just a few years.

[CBT]

The federal government is Godzilla. That’s the easiest way to look at it. It’s this giant, lumbering beast that is marginally under our command, kinda like a Marauder. So what do you do with such a thing? Well, if you need to destroy Tokyo (which is something we tasked our government with in the 40s), then it’s well suited for such a task. Godzilla is great at smashing things and can easily unleash the fury.
But let’s say we don’t need to smash something at the moment. Let’s say instead we want it to feed the poor. Well, I guess Godzilla could carry a bunch of food and try to hand it out to the little ants in front of it, but it’s likely to crush a bunch of people and smash a few buildings in the process. It’s so big, it might not even notice that and think it’s doing a great job. And the bigger we make Godzilla, the less it’ll hear our pleas and the more likely it is to unwittingly crush and destroy things while trying to be helpful.
And if Godzilla is in the middle of trying to help us and we accidentally make it mad…
So the solution is to task Godzilla with tasks away from domestic life where it can’t accidentally harm us, and try not to let Godzilla get too big so it is less likely to unwittingly crush us and is easier to control. Otherwise, we might lose all control of Godzilla, and then what’s the solution? That’s right: Go Mothra on its ass! The problem is, if metaphorically Godzilla is the federal government, I have no idea what Mothra is supposed to be.
At least ACORN is disbanded.

[sailsmen]

Leo - I am very moved by your story. Looking at your picture in your sig I can see how you were well sculpted with an athletic build. To have gone from a sculpted build and an athletic person to disabled must have been a difficult transition.

Best of luck!

[Joe Walsh]

The federal government is Godzilla. That’s the easiest way to look at it. It’s this giant, lumbering beast that is marginally under our command, kinda like a Marauder. So what do you do with such a thing? Well, if you need to destroy Tokyo (which is something we tasked our government with in the 40s), then it’s well suited for such a task. Godzilla is great at smashing things and can easily unleash the fury.
But let’s say we don’t need to smash something at the moment. Let’s say instead we want it to feed the poor. Well, I guess Godzilla could carry a bunch of food and try to hand it out to the little ants in front of it, but it’s likely to crush a bunch of people and smash a few buildings in the process. It’s so big, it might not even notice that and think it’s doing a great job. And the bigger we make Godzilla, the less it’ll hear our pleas and the more likely it is to unwittingly crush and destroy things while trying to be helpful.
And if Godzilla is in the middle of trying to help us and we accidentally make it mad…
So the solution is to task Godzilla with tasks away from domestic life where it can’t accidentally harm us, and try not to let Godzilla get too big so it is less likely to unwittingly crush us and is easier to control. Otherwise, we might lose all control of Godzilla, and then what’s the solution? That’s right: Go Mothra on its ass! The problem is, if metaphorically Godzilla is the federal government,
I have no idea what Mothra is supposed to be.
At least ACORN is disbanded.

LOL!

AMEN!

I'm so glad to see the Federal government pulled its financial support of that wacko bunch of cheats and thieves!
But, ACORN should never have even received a nickel of our taxpayer's money!
The Feds got pi$$ed when that video of ACORN showed them instructing people on how to cheat the IRS....that was the end of ACORN!

BTW: We the voters are in effect MOTHRA! We can kill Godzilla quite easily...

JUST VOTE EVERY INCUMBENT OUT OF OFFICE!

BTW: Why are Federal, State and local governments allowed to hire "Non-Essential" employees???
WTF!?
Businesses don't hire people until they are 'essential'!

[CBT]

lol, good points, but I know what they mean by essential and non-essential. Military has the same term.
LOL!

AMEN!

I'm so glad to see the Federal government pulled its financial support of that wacko bunch of cheats and thieves!
But, ACORN should never have even received a nickel of our taxpayer's money!
The Feds got pi$$ed when that video of ACORN showed them instructing people on how to cheat the IRS....that was the end of ACORN!

BTW: We the voters are in effect MOTHRA! We can kill Godzilla quite easily...

JUST VOTE EVERY INCUMBENT OUT OF OFFICE!

BTW: Why are Federal, State and local governments allowed to hire "Non-Essential" employees???
WTF!?
Businesses don't hire people until they are 'essential'!

[Haggis]

LOL!

BTW: Why are Federal, State and local governments allowed to hire "Non-Essential" employees???


Hey wait, I'm a non-essential employee. Wait let me rephrase that...:lol:

[CBT]

................
19241

[Dr Caleb]

Canada and the UK are Single Payer, what Pres Obama has said he is a proponent of in 2003 & 2007.
In Canada the median wait time after seeing your GP to get treatment 4.5 months. The Pres of the CMA said their system is imploding.

I wasn't going to weigh in on this subject at all - but all your stats on Canada are pure BS. If the system is 'imploding' it's because of a lack of will to fund it. Here in Alberta, the healthcare budget was increased, despite the economic 'downturn' because of the stagnation of funding over the last decade. Funny thing is, the same can be said for Education, Infrastructure, Department of the Environment . . . Healthcare isn't special in that regard. But it's the way life is, we can't always fund the government on credit so some departments suffer more than others.

The rest of the quote, by the President of the CMA, Dr. Anne Doig, is
Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care, and she adds that physicians from across the country – who will gather in Saskatoon today for their annual meeting – recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doig told The Canadian Press.

"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

Firstly health care is delivered by the provinces, so any stats about healthcare delivery, such as 'wait times in Canada to see a GP' are made up. If they said 'Wait times in Ontario. . ' they might have a shred of truth to them. But, they don't. Can you imagine outrage if we had to wait 4 and a half months to get a hangnail fixed?? Why would your brain even believe we would stand for such a thing?

I can see my GP today if I like. I had a small stroke last year, and had a CAT scan and MRI within 4 hours of calling 9-1-1. There are no wait times, if the need is immediate. They even scheduled surgery for me preemptively that evening if the MRI showed any problem. And I do not pay one cent for it.

Complete BS. The one thing I can't stand in this whole process you guys are going through is the lies. Bold Faced lies.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/francis/archive/2009/05/12/health-care-lies-about-canda.aspx

It's funny, because we had basically the same discussion in the 1960's when national healthcare was first proposed here. Guess what? When everybody pays - everyone pays less! Care gets cheaper, and easier. You buy a billion Asprin, they get real cheap in those quantities. More babies are born, and live longer. Just like it does when everyone pays for roads or clean water, or fire and police service. The things that are required in a modern society. Why is your health any less important that your safety or your child's education?

Doctors in countries with Socialized Healthcare work for themselves, and it's in their interests to have their patients receive the best care they can provide. No different than anywhere else in the G8 or G20 countries (except the countries with Socialized Medicine, where the Doctors are employed by the State). Doctors provide the care, the government pays for it. Except the US. But hopefully that will change in the near future.

There is no downside. You couldn't take away our national healthcare system any easier than you could our right to vote. The best part of this vote, for Canada, is now our dirty politicians will stop hinting at dismantling our system in favour of a for-profit private system that wouldn't work in the best interest of it's patients.

[guspech750]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this subject at all - but all your stats on Canada are pure BS. If the system is 'imploding' it's because of a lack of will to fund it. Here in Alberta, the healthcare budget was increased, despite the economic 'downturn' because of the stagnation of funding over the last decade. Funny thing is, the same can be said for Education, Infrastructure, Department of the Environment . . . Healthcare isn't special in that regard. But it's the way life is, we can't always fund the government on credit so some departments suffer more than others.

The rest of the quote, by the President of the CMA, Dr. Anne Doig, is

Firstly health care is delivered by the provinces, so any stats about healthcare delivery, such as 'wait times in Canada to see a GP' are made up. If they said 'Wait times in Ontario. . ' they might have a shred of truth to them. But, they don't. Can you imagine outrage if we had to wait 4 and a half months to get a hangnail fixed?? Why would your brain even believe we would stand for such a thing?

I can see my GP today if I like. I had a small stroke last year, and had a CAT scan and MRI within 4 hours of calling 9-1-1. There are no wait times, if the need is immediate. They even scheduled surgery for me preemptively that evening if the MRI showed any problem. And I do not pay one cent for it.

Complete BS. The one thing I can't stand in this whole process you guys are going through is the lies. Bold Faced lies.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/francis/archive/2009/05/12/health-care-lies-about-canda.aspx

It's funny, because we had basically the same discussion in the 1960's when national healthcare was first proposed here. Guess what? When everybody pays - everyone pays less! Care gets cheaper, and easier. You buy a billion Asprin, they get real cheap in those quantities. More babies are born, and live longer. Just like it does when everyone pays for roads or clean water, or fire and police service. The things that are required in a modern society. Why is your health any less important that your safety or your child's education?

Doctors in countries with Socialized Healthcare work for themselves, and it's in their interests to have their patients receive the best care they can provide. No different than anywhere else in the G8 or G20 countries (except the countries with Socialized Medicine, where the Doctors are employed by the State). Doctors provide the care, the government pays for it. Except the US. But hopefully that will change in the near future.

There is no downside. You couldn't take away our national healthcare system any easier than you could our right to vote. The best part of this vote, for Canada, is now our dirty politicians will stop hinting at dismantling our system in favour of a for-profit private system that wouldn't work in the best interest of it's patients.


Even though I am against this HC Bill. Its nice to see a fellow from up North chim in on this. To see a different perspective.

[CBT]

Hopefully our Constitution will be upheld, and we will not be taxed to pay for it. I hope the stories about people coming here for care ARE false, it shouldn't have to be that way. Plus, I just don't like people coming here for freebies, especially if I'm paying for those freebies. Canadians, Mexicans, Martians, Crab People, whoever. Everyone needs to fix thier own problems and stop using my wallet to fix them.



I wasn't going to weigh in on this subject at all - but all your stats on Canada are pure BS. If the system is 'imploding' it's because of a lack of will to fund it. Here in Alberta, the healthcare budget was increased, despite the economic 'downturn' because of the stagnation of funding over the last decade. Funny thing is, the same can be said for Education, Infrastructure, Department of the Environment . . . Healthcare isn't special in that regard. But it's the way life is, we can't always fund the government on credit so some departments suffer more than others.

The rest of the quote, by the President of the CMA, Dr. Anne Doig, is

Firstly health care is delivered by the provinces, so any stats about healthcare delivery, such as 'wait times in Canada to see a GP' are made up. If they said 'Wait times in Ontario. . ' they might have a shred of truth to them. But, they don't. Can you imagine outrage if we had to wait 4 and a half months to get a hangnail fixed?? Why would your brain even believe we would stand for such a thing?

I can see my GP today if I like. I had a small stroke last year, and had a CAT scan and MRI within 4 hours of calling 9-1-1. There are no wait times, if the need is immediate. They even scheduled surgery for me preemptively that evening if the MRI showed any problem. And I do not pay one cent for it.

Complete BS. The one thing I can't stand in this whole process you guys are going through is the lies. Bold Faced lies.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/francis/archive/2009/05/12/health-care-lies-about-canda.aspx

It's funny, because we had basically the same discussion in the 1960's when national healthcare was first proposed here. Guess what? When everybody pays - everyone pays less! Care gets cheaper, and easier. You buy a billion Asprin, they get real cheap in those quantities. More babies are born, and live longer. Just like it does when everyone pays for roads or clean water, or fire and police service. The things that are required in a modern society. Why is your health any less important that your safety or your child's education?

Doctors in countries with Socialized Healthcare work for themselves, and it's in their interests to have their patients receive the best care they can provide. No different than anywhere else in the G8 or G20 countries (except the countries with Socialized Medicine, where the Doctors are employed by the State). Doctors provide the care, the government pays for it. Except the US. But hopefully that will change in the near future.

There is no downside. You couldn't take away our national healthcare system any easier than you could our right to vote. The best part of this vote, for Canada, is now our dirty politicians will stop hinting at dismantling our system in favour of a for-profit private system that wouldn't work in the best interest of it's patients.

[Dr Caleb]

Hopefully our Constitution will be upheld, and we will not be taxed to pay for it. I hope the stories about people coming here for care ARE false, it shouldn't have to be that way. Plus, I just don't like people coming here for freebies, especially if I'm paying for those freebies. Canadians, Mexicans, Martians, Crab People, whoever. Everyone needs to fix thier own problems and stop using my wallet to fix them.

We do come there. But we pay our way. Because you are a much larger population, we don't get some specialized surgeries or surgeons here, because a condition might develop in our population once every few years. Our system will pay for us to go to a surgeon in the US for things covered by our care but not available here, and our provincial systems foot the bill.

Just like sometimes we will get patients from the US here, because there are no waits for a service here, and the patient's care will pay for that. Whether it be private or public facilities. It happens all the time, especially for baby deliveries. Someone from Oregon might be flown to BC or Alberta for delivery because there are no open beds there, but there are here. And vice-versa.

Eg:
http://www.nationalsurgery.com/uspatients.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5h0QC7bditrEb3wYz_6_b-gsGGDxA

[CBT]

So what country are they a citizen of if they are flown to Canada to be born? :confused:


We do come there. But we pay our way. Because you are a much larger population, we don't get some specialized surgeries or surgeons here, because a condition might develop in our population once every few years. Our system will pay for us to go to a surgeon in the US for things covered by our care but not available here, and our provincial systems foot the bill.

Just like sometimes we will get patients from the US here, because there are no waits for a service here, and the patient's care will pay for that. Whether it be private or public facilities. It happens all the time, especially for baby deliveries. Someone from Oregon might be flown to BC or Alberta for delivery because there are no open beds there, but there are here. And vice-versa.

Eg:
http://www.nationalsurgery.com/uspatients.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5h0QC7bditrEb3wYz_6_b-gsGGDxA

[Pat]

The news for the past two days in my little home town paper, The Bossier Press Tribune, is that the cuts in doctor/hospital reimbursement for Medicare will force Md's and specialist from taking on Medicare patients.

Then where will we go? Mexico? I can see a whole new wave of medical immigrants taking the place of home grown doctors. Offices set up in strip malls or along the highways. Gotta go where you can. This is going to be traumatic.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Pat you are right about the doctor situation. In 10 years you'll be lucky to hire a voodoo dr. from S. Africa. Rep. Tom Coburn from Oklahoma,a doctor himself, introduced several amendments to the health bill today. The health bill allows medical coverage of Viagra and similar drugs to sex offenders. His amendment if passed would prohibit that. If defeated, all the Democrats have to go on record as voting for allowing this coverage under the bill. That would be one to be proud of, but they have already voted for it once.

[Dr Caleb]

So what country are they a citizen of if they are flown to Canada to be born? :confused:

I think they make exemptions on a case-by-case basis. Every year, the Dutch Monarchy sends hundreds of thousands of tulips to the city of Ottawa, because back in WWII they designated one room in a hospital as Dutch soil, to the Royal Heir could be born on Dutch soil while in exile here in Canada. My 3 cousins were born on 3 different Canada Forces bases around the world, but are all Canadian citizens. So, it's not without precedent.

[guspech750]

[quote=Pat;884429]The news for the past two days in my little home town paper, The Bossier Press Tribune, is that the cuts in doctor/hospital reimbursement for Medicare will force Md's and specialist from taking on Medicare patients.

quote]

It has already been happening for sometime now and even more so in the last year. My wife is a RN and has seen it at the hospital where she works more and more every year. A lot of doctors are even opting to do more and more surguries at a private practice office as to avoid hospitals and non paying patients and Medicare.

[Bluerauder]

My 3 cousins were born on 3 different Canada Forces bases around the world, but are all Canadian citizens. So, it's not without precedent.

This ^^^^ is very interesting. My son was born at a US Forces Hospital on a US base in Germany. His birth certificate was issued by the US Department of State and a government form noting the "Birth of a US Citizen Abroad". My understanding of the US Constitution is that he could never become President of the United States since he WAS NOT born on US soil. Fortunately, I don't think that he wants the job. ;)

[Dr Caleb]

This ^^^^ is very interesting. My son was born at a US Forces Hospital on a US base in Germany. His birth certificate was issued by the US Department of State and a government form noting the "Birth of a US Citizen Abroad". My understanding of the US Constitution is that he could never become President of the United States since he WAS NOT born on US soil. Fortunately, I don't think that he wants the job. ;)

All of the Canada Forces bases that I know of were in Commonwealth countries, so they respected that bases were Sovereign Canadian territory for the period of the land lease. Made things like that easier. I don't think the base at Kandahar Airfield is considered Canadian territory though. But then again, soldiers wouldn't be deployed there with wives and family. Bermuda was a cushy posting. Afghanistan, not so much.

But, then again, I don't think that my cousins can grow up to be Queen of England either. ;)

[Vortex]

Actually the Medicare payments to doctors based on the SGR has zero/nada to do with the new health bill. It is an issue though. Medical costs have gone up way over and above the general inflation rate on everything else. Doctors believe Medicare needs to pay them at higher inflated rates.

"At issue is the 13-year-old formula — the so-called Sustainable Growth Rate (SGR) — that was designed to prevent Medicare doctor payments from skyrocketing by indexing reimbursements to the growth of the economy on the whole. Trouble is, health care inflation has grown by degrees faster than GDP in recent years. Indeed, the SGR has called for cuts in doctors’ Medicare pay every year beginning in 2002. That’s a perennial thorn in the side of Congress, which, having no stomach for alienating the powerful physician lobby, almost always steps in with a temporary fix."

It is a troubling issue that needs addressing, the ballooning costs of healthcare. Unfortunately, with a for profit system, this will always be an issue. There has to be a way to keep costs from rising faster than the GDP.

[Dr Caleb]

Just throwing this out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwUL9tJmypI

[Pat]

Throwing what out there? Blank box, OK an all white box. Oh, I get it now.

[W4LTD]

It is a troubling issue that needs addressing, the ballooning costs of healthcare. Unfortunately, with a for profit system, this will always be an issue. There has to be a way to keep costs from rising faster than the GDP.

Before my father passed away last year, he was hospitalized for 5-months at approximately $90,000.00 per month. He wasn't undergoing any surgery; he had dialysis 3 times per week, monitoring/medicating him and feeding him to sustain his life. With the dialysis and medication NOT included in the $90k monthly hospital bill, should it really have cost $3,000.00 per day to feed and watch-over him? Not to mention the $600.00 bill for the 3-mile ambulance ride (BLS) to the hospital -- for which I also pay annually in my ad valorem real estate taxes. I was a volunteer EMT-P for 12-years up north, so please don't give me any EMS rhetoric...

[SC Cheesehead]

Obama Admin. Declares 'The End of Favoring Motorized Transportation' (http://ow.ly/16StcW)

CNSNews.com) - Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has announced that federal transportation policies will no longer favor “motorized” transportation, such as cars and trucks, over “non-motorized” transportation, such as walking and bicycling...

“Today, I want to announce a sea change,” LaHood wrote. “People across America who value bicycling should have a voice when it comes to transportation planning. This is the end of favoring motorized transportation at the expense of non-motorized.”


Flood gates are open, folks. C.Y.C.B.I...:shake:

[Phrog_gunner]

Flood gates are open, folks. C.Y.C.B.I...:shake:

How dare you speak ill of the messiah. All of you naysayers will soon be proven wrong because this type of system has been proven in countries like Cuba, U.S.S.R., and China which have a much different standard of living than we do here in the USA.

[SC Cheesehead]

How dare you speak ill of the messiah. All of you naysayers will soon be proven wrong because this type of system has been proven in countries like Cuba, U.S.S.R., and China which have a much different standard of living than we do here in the USA.

:lol: won't argue that one, bubba! ;)

[LIGHTNIN1]

How dare you speak ill of the messiah. All of you naysayers will soon be proven wrong because this type of system has been proven in countries like Cuba, U.S.S.R., and China which have a much different standard of living than we do here in the USA.

There you go! These people in the US don't understand how good they have it . Then they start getting substandard care and they getthiing soft and they think this is not so bad after all. Not me. I will not cave to this nonsense.

[guspech750]

At any rate. In a few years I think I will move to Mexico since by then I predict there will only be less than 100 Mexicans that live in their native land as most will be here illegally. So we can just set up show there and make a new government.

[Phrog_gunner]

At any rate. In a few years I think I will move to Mexico since by then I predict there will only be less than 100 Mexicans that live in their native land as most will be here illegally. So we can just set up show there and make a new government.

The new fence is to keep people aka the money source IN.

[sailsmen]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this subject at all - but all your stats on Canada are pure BS. If the system is 'imploding' it's because of a lack of will to fund it. Here in Alberta, the healthcare budget was increased, despite the economic 'downturn' because of the stagnation of funding over the last decade. Funny thing is, the same can be said for Education, Infrastructure, Department of the Environment . . . Healthcare isn't special in that regard. But it's the way life is, we can't always fund the government on credit so some departments suffer more than others.

The rest of the quote, by the President of the CMA, Dr. Anne Doig, is

Firstly health care is delivered by the provinces, so any stats about healthcare delivery, such as 'wait times in Canada to see a GP' are made up. If they said 'Wait times in Ontario. . ' they might have a shred of truth to them. But, they don't. Can you imagine outrage if we had to wait 4 and a half months to get a hangnail fixed?? Why would your brain even believe we would stand for such a thing?

I can see my GP today if I like. I had a small stroke last year, and had a CAT scan and MRI within 4 hours of calling 9-1-1. There are no wait times, if the need is immediate. They even scheduled surgery for me preemptively that evening if the MRI showed any problem. And I do not pay one cent for it.

Complete BS. The one thing I can't stand in this whole process you guys are going through is the lies. Bold Faced lies.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/francis/archive/2009/05/12/health-care-lies-about-canda.aspx

It's funny, because we had basically the same discussion in the 1960's when national healthcare was first proposed here. Guess what? When everybody pays - everyone pays less! Care gets cheaper, and easier. You buy a billion Asprin, they get real cheap in those quantities. More babies are born, and live longer. Just like it does when everyone pays for roads or clean water, or fire and police service. The things that are required in a modern society. Why is your health any less important that your safety or your child's education? - OR YOUR FOOD, SHELTER, TRANSPORTATION, ENERGY- IT IS CALLED COMMUNISIM RESULTING IN A LOSS OF FREEDOM.

Doctors in countries with Socialized Healthcare work for themselves, and it's in their interests to have their patients receive the best care they can provide. No different than anywhere else in the G8 or G20 countries (except the countries with Socialized Medicine, where the Doctors are employed by the State). Doctors provide the care, the government pays for it. Except the US. But hopefully that will change in the near future.

There is no downside. You couldn't take away our national healthcare system any easier than you could our right to vote. The best part of this vote, for Canada, is now our dirty politicians will stop hinting at dismantling our system in favour of a for-profit private system that wouldn't work in the best interest of it's patients.

Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
Compared to 1993, wait times in 2007 are 97 per cent longer, report finds
Last Updated: Monday, October 15, 2007 | 4:09 PM ET
CBC News
The average wait time for a Canadian awaiting surgery or other medical treatment is now 18.3 weeks, a new high, according to a report released Monday.
That's an increase of 97 per cent over 14 years, the report says.
A patient undergoes MRI screening. The median wait for an MRI across Canada is 10.1 weeks, according to the report.
(CBC)
"Canadians wait longer than Americans, Germans, and Swedes for cardiac care, although not as long as New Zealanders or the British," it reads. "Economists attempting to quantify the cost of this waiting time have estimated it to amount to $1,100 to $5,600 annually per patient."
The report, the 17th annual edition of Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada, is published by the Fraser Institute, an independent Canadian research organization.
"Despite government promises and the billions of dollars funnelled into the Canadian health-care system, the average patient waited more than 18 weeks in 2007 between seeing their family doctor and receiving the surgery or treatment they required," said Nadeem Esmail, director of Health System Performance Studies at the Fraser Institute and co-author of the report, in a release.
The total median waiting time for patients between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, increased to 18.3 weeks from 17.8 weeks in 2006, according to the report.

From the Canadian Institute for Health Information, 12/05;
From Specialist to surgery 50% for hip replacement - waited 4.5 months
From Specialist to surgery 50% for knee replacement - waited 7 months.

Dr. Caleb - "Here in Alberta, the healthcare budget was increased, despite the economic 'downturn' because of the stagnation of funding over the last decade. Funny thing is, the same can be said for Education, Infrastructure, Department of the Environment . . . Healthcare isn't special in that regard." - WHEN DOES GOV'T EVER HAVE ENOUGH MONEY AND WHEN DOES GOV'T SAY THE SOLUTION IS ANYTHING BUT MORE MONEY???

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/10/15/fraser-report.html#ixzz0j8ho5sBy

http://www.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/Waittimes_presentation_e.ppt
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/product_files/waitingyourturn2008.pdf

" ST. JOHN 'S, N.L. -- Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States .
Deputy premier Kathy Dunderdale confirmed the treatment at a news conference Tuesday, but would not reveal the location of the operation or how it would be paid for."

[CBT]

Throwing what out there? Blank box, OK an all white box. Oh, I get it now.

:lol: I kept staring at it, thinking my computer was spooling up or something, then I read your post. Now I feel dumb for staring at it for 2 minutes :rolleyes:

[CBT]

Sorry for your loss, brother. By reading this, I cannot tell if you are for or against the new law? Are you saying paying in helped in your fathers situation, or :confused: Either way, 90 grand a month ain't no joke, no one except that rich 1% of Americans could swing that.


Before my father passed away last year, he was hospitalized for 5-months at approximately $90,000.00 per month. He wasn't undergoing any surgery; he had dialysis 3 times per week, monitoring/medicating him and feeding him to sustain his life. With the dialysis and medication NOT included in the $90k monthly hospital bill, should it really have cost $3,000.00 per day to feed and watch-over him? Not to mention the $600.00 bill for the 3-mile ambulance ride (BLS) to the hospital -- for which I also pay annually in my ad valorem real estate taxes. I was a volunteer EMT-P for 12-years up north, so please don't give me any EMS rhetoric...

[sailsmen]

..... Unfortunately, with a for profit system, this will always be an issue. There has to be a way to keep costs from rising faster than the GDP.

"By Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY
Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds.
Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors are among the wide range of jobs that get paid more on average in the federal government than in the private sector.
Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available.
CHART: Federal salaries compared to private-sector
These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis."

[W4LTD]

Sorry for your loss, brother. By reading this, I cannot tell if you are for or against the new law? Are you saying paying in helped in your fathers situation, or :confused: Either way, 90 grand a month ain't no joke, no one except that rich 1% of Americans could swing that.

Thanks Casey, truth be told I am both for and against. My father had great insurance, both private and Medicare, so it really didn't affect him too much besides the co-pays. I believe on its merit, the healthcare reform bill is a good idea. However, I am uncertain as to whether or not our government will screw it up. As a government employee, I have wonderful benefits which are in addition to my VA benefits (USN '90-'95), so this healthcare package will be of no benefit to me, personally. It will help the civilian employees who aren't lucky enough to have healthcare and [unfortunately] those who are able-bodied to work, yet abuse the SSI/SSDI and the healthcare system . Did you know that 85% of the Oxycontin prescriptions written NATIONWIDE come from the state of Florida? Doctor shopping (as it's called), amongst other issues, is killing our current healthcare system and adding to the growing drug epidemic (yes, I consider it an epidemic). Sorry for going off on a tangent, but I work in the drug interdiction "field".

No matter what the outcome, I think in 10-years from now the healthcare system will seem as commonplace as Social Security (which was also scrutinized from the beginning)...

[CBT]

I agree about the prescription drugs part, I even mentioned I don't think we should pay for someone injured by taking meth. Or cocaine, or whatever. Recreational (as in not on the clock) use of weed, I put that with drinking, knock yourself out if it's the weekend, but don't do that stuff on the job. If someone is born injured for life, then yeah I think we should take care of them. Elderly, I think they've earned free health care. But I just cannot grasp forcing this on everyone. Fining people for not paying has become Federal law, it's bizarre.


Thanks Casey, truth be told I am both for and against. My father had great insurance, both private and Medicare, so it really didn't affect him too much besides the co-pays. I believe on its merit, the healthcare reform bill is a good idea. However, I am uncertain as to whether or not our government will screw it up. As a government employee, I have wonderful benefits which are in addition to my VA benefits (USN '90-'95), so this healthcare package will be of no benefit to me, personally. It will help the civilian employees who aren't lucky enough to have healthcare and [unfortunately] those who are able-bodied to work, yet abuse the SSI/SSDI and the healthcare system . Did you know that 85% of the Oxycontin prescriptions written NATIONWIDE come from the state of Florida? Doctor shopping (as it's called), amongst other issues, is killing our current healthcare system and adding to the growing drug epidemic (yes, I consider it an epidemic). Sorry for going off on a tangent, but I work in the drug interdiction "field".

No matter what the outcome, I think in 10-years from now the healthcare system will seem as commonplace as Social Security (which was also scrutinized from the beginning)...

[CBT]

It is worthwhile to take a comprehensive look at the freedoms we will lose under ObamaCare, says blogger David Hogberg. Among them:

You are young and don't want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forgo health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the "privilege." (Section 1501).
You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You'll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drinks a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That's because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person's health status. <---that should be enough to sink this bill if everyone actually had a chance to read it. (Section 2701).
You're a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You're a woman who can't have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You're a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).
You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you'd like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A)).
If you are a physician and you don't want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It's not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients' care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i)).
You will have to pay an additional 0.5 percent payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015). That amount will rise to a 3.8 percent tax in 2013 and will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402).
Source: David Hogberg, "20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away our Freedoms," Investors Business Daily, March 22, 2010.

[Haggis]

:lol: I kept staring at it, thinking my c*ck was spooling up or something. Now I feel dumb for staring at it for 2 minutes :rolleyes:


:lol: Casey, only you.

[SC Cheesehead]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this subject at all - but all your stats on Canada are pure BS. If the system is 'imploding' it's because of a lack of will to fund it. Here in Alberta, the healthcare budget was increased, despite the economic 'downturn' because of the stagnation of funding over the last decade. Funny thing is, the same can be said for Education, Infrastructure, Department of the Environment . . . Healthcare isn't special in that regard. But it's the way life is, we can't always fund the government on credit so some departments suffer more than others.

The rest of the quote, by the President of the CMA, Dr. Anne Doig, is

Firstly health care is delivered by the provinces, so any stats about healthcare delivery, such as 'wait times in Canada to see a GP' are made up. If they said 'Wait times in Ontario. . ' they might have a shred of truth to them. But, they don't. Can you imagine outrage if we had to wait 4 and a half months to get a hangnail fixed?? Why would your brain even believe we would stand for such a thing?

I can see my GP today if I like. I had a small stroke last year, and had a CAT scan and MRI within 4 hours of calling 9-1-1. There are no wait times, if the need is immediate. They even scheduled surgery for me preemptively that evening if the MRI showed any problem. And I do not pay one cent for it.

Complete BS. The one thing I can't stand in this whole process you guys are going through is the lies. Bold Faced lies.

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/francis/archive/2009/05/12/health-care-lies-about-canda.aspx

It's funny, because we had basically the same discussion in the 1960's when national healthcare was first proposed here. Guess what? When everybody pays - everyone pays less! Care gets cheaper, and easier. You buy a billion Asprin, they get real cheap in those quantities. More babies are born, and live longer. Just like it does when everyone pays for roads or clean water, or fire and police service. The things that are required in a modern society. Why is your health any less important that your safety or your child's education?

Doctors in countries with Socialized Healthcare work for themselves, and it's in their interests to have their patients receive the best care they can provide. No different than anywhere else in the G8 or G20 countries (except the countries with Socialized Medicine, where the Doctors are employed by the State). Doctors provide the care, the government pays for it. Except the US. But hopefully that will change in the near future.

There is no downside. You couldn't take away our national healthcare system any easier than you could our right to vote. The best part of this vote, for Canada, is now our dirty politicians will stop hinting at dismantling our system in favour of a for-profit private system that wouldn't work in the best interest of it's patients.


Yup, lack of will all right; your politicians know that raising taxes even higher to fund the balloning Canadian health care costs will go over about as well as a f@rt (f@rt) in church.

Yup, and that VAT tax is just something you pay for the heck of it, eh?

Yup, and who doesn't appreciate government control over their lives (e.g. rationed healthcare)?

[CBT]

Yup, and who doesn't appreciate government control over their lives (e.g. rationed healthcare)?

With the founding fathers, even proposing a giant government expansion like this would have gotten you a musket shot to the junk. We want public servants, but we always get tyrants who think they serve best by being our rulers. You can argue for the health care bill and say it’s for the greater good, but never again tell me you’re against fascism, because you can’t keep expanding government and be against fascism. That’s like denouncing shark attacks while chumming the water.

[xopher]

Source: David Hogberg, "20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away our Freedoms," Investors Business Daily, March 22, 2010.
I don't like how Mr Hogberg and his peers framing some of these things as a "loss of freedoms". I don't put much of this stuff in the same group as universal suffrage, the abolition of slavery, free speech, freedom of religion, or the right to bear arms. Freedoms are big things. This stuff isn't as big picture.

I skipped about 10 pages of this thread, mainly because I've been displeased with the conservative rhetoric recently (not on MM.net, everywhere). People are calling this legislation Socialist, with a capital S. That word would not be as popular in the American vernacular in 2010 if Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck hadn't said it 25000 times on the air. Most people don't even know what it means, but somehow associate it with drunken Russians standing in a bread line.

Tea partiers are spitting on Congressmen and calling them racial epithets. Death threats are abounding. Radio talk show hosts scream with emotion instead of discussing ideas, and their listeners and viewers believe that rabidly foaming at the mouth is political discourse. I'm disappointed in the behavior of the many in the conservative base and conservative media. An abundance of fervent extremism and a lack of compromise is undermining American Democracy.

Interesting read:
http://onmilwaukee.com/politics/articles/healthcarereform032210.html

[CBT]

I don't like how Mr Hogberg and his peers framing some of these things as a "loss of freedoms". I don't put much of this stuff in the same group as universal suffrage, the abolition of slavery, free speech, freedom of religion, or the right to bear arms. Freedoms are big things. This stuff isn't as big picture.

I skipped about 10 pages of this thread, mainly because I've been displeased with the conservative rhetoric recently (not on MM.net, everywhere). People are calling this legislation Socialist, with a capital S. That word would not be as popular in the American vernacular in 2010 if Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck hadn't said it 25000 times on the air. Most people don't even know what it means, but somehow associate it with drunken Russians standing in a bread line.

Tea partiers are spitting on Congressmen and calling them racial epithets.<---that was debunked, turns out someone "thought" they heard someone say "Boy", and it got blown out of proportion from there.) Death threats are abounding. <---No doubt!) Radio talk show hosts scream with emotion instead of discussing ideas, and their listeners and viewers believe that rabidly foaming at the mouth is political discourse. I'm disappointed in the behavior of the many in the conservative base and conservative media. An abundance of fervent extremism and a lack of compromise is undermining American Democracy. <---Why do people insist we are a democratic society? Clearly, we are a republic, just listen the lines from that song..."and to the REPUBLIC, for which it stands, yadda yadda yadda.

Interesting read:
http://onmilwaukee.com/politics/articles/healthcarereform032210.html

No one has to listen to a politician or a talk show host to understand that the government just passed a law that is going to fine you for NOT buying something from them. The government has it's fists in the auto industry, ow long before we get fined for NOT buying a GM car? Yes, that's a little extreme, but still.

[xopher]

Debunked? Please cite sources.
Death threats? No doubt?! You make it sound like you support it.
Democracy? Yes, we're a democratic republic. We're not a generic republic, because a non-democratic republic could exist.

Feels like you confirmed the same rabidity exists here. :(

[MrBluGruv]

The government has it's fists in the auto industry, ow long before we get fined for NOT buying a GM car? Yes, that's a little extreme, but still.


I don't think it's too extreme to see that as a possibility, not one bit. The only thing that'll prevent that is the prior posted story about the government hard-on now for cutting motorized transportation in favor of "walking and bicycling". I guess we know what the government is gonna do with GM in the future now...

[Haggis]

Debunked? Please cite sources.
Death threats? No doubt?! You make it sound like you support it.
Democracy? Yes, we're a democratic republic. We're not a generic republic, because a non-democratic republic could exist.

Feels like you confirmed the same rabidity exists here. :(

Kind of like East Germany (DDR-Deutsch Democratis Republic) use to be.

[MrBluGruv]

Death threats? No doubt?! You make it sound like you support it.


As unsavory as behavior like that is, one can't deny, revolutions are rarely peaceful. And frankly, I think we're right on course for one given the extreme heavy-handedness of the government (regardless of whether or not they are right or wrong about this bill and others in the works.)

[xopher]

Obama Admin. Declares 'The End of Favoring Motorized Transportation' (http://ow.ly/16StcW)

CNSNews.com) - Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has announced that federal transportation policies will no longer favor “motorized” transportation, such as cars and trucks, over “non-motorized” transportation, such as walking and bicycling...

“Today, I want to announce a sea change,” LaHood wrote. “People across America who value bicycling should have a voice when it comes to transportation planning. This is the end of favoring motorized transportation at the expense of non-motorized.”


Flood gates are open, folks. C.Y.C.B.I...:shake:

I don't think it's too extreme to see that as a possibility, not one bit. The only thing that'll prevent that is the prior posted story about the government hard-on now for cutting motorized transportation in favor of "walking and bicycling". I guess we know what the government is gonna do with GM in the future now...
It only took 18 hours for "federal transportation policies will no longer favor “motorized” transportation, such as cars and trucks, over “non-motorized” transportation, such as walking and bicycling" turned in to "the government hard-on now for cutting motorized transportation in favor of 'walking and bicycling'".

People are emotionalizing an issue about transportation and immediately blurring the facts.

[Haggis]

It only took 18 hours for "federal transportation policies will no longer favor “motorized” transportation, such as cars and trucks, over “non-motorized” transportation, such as walking and bicycling" turned in to "the government hard-on now for cutting motorized transportation in favor of 'walking and bicycling'".

People are emotionalizing an issue about transportation and immediately blurring the facts.
I'am praying for the day to the end of the automobile and all other modern conveniences.

[xopher]

Kind of like East Germany (DDR-Deutsch Democratis Republic) use to be.
We've been a democratic republic for nearly a quarter millenium. So was your point that a country that no longer exists emulated us, or that we predicted their existence and emulated them in advance?


As unsavory as behavior like that is, one can't deny, revolutions are rarely peaceful. And frankly, I think we're right on course for one given the extreme heavy-handedness of the government (regardless of whether or not they are right or wrong about this bill and others in the works.)
This is exactly the kind of extremist talk I'm talking about. There are people short on facts and quick on the trigger itching to get out their AR-15s and unleash violence about things they don't understand. Narrow minded individuals are thinking about a revolution instead of participating in their government. Carving another notch in my desk for reasons I'm disappointed in Americans.

[MrBluGruv]

People are emotionalizing an issue about transportation and immediately blurring the facts.

I'd like to think I'm overreacting, but what would you gather from murmurs like that from government? This nation relies on motorized transportation, and not just for entertainment although it's only fair to admit that a large part of owning an automobile is the inherent freedom that goes with it.

[MrBluGruv]

This is exactly the kind of extremist talk I'm talking about. There are people short on facts and quick on the trigger itching to get out their AR-15s and unleash violence about things they don't understand. Narrow minded individuals are thinking about a revolution instead of participating in their government. Carving another notch in my desk for reasons I'm disappointed in Americans.


I don't think I understand, firstly participation in government isn't working its best right now, made apparent by the passing of this bill with disregard to the majority's wishes. Secondly, given that, why wouldn't people of a nation built on making a stand against principles it doesn't believe it consider the possibility of taking drastic action? At what point do you finally give in? Can NOTHING be done pre-emptively to protect your own interests any more without people calling you an extremist?

[xopher]

what would you gather from murmurs like that from government?
It means exactly what it said. A freeway bridge will no longer necessarily be more important than a footbridge or bike bridge.


I don't think I understand, firstly participation in government isn't working its best right now, made apparent by the passing of this bill with disregard to the majority's wishes. Secondly, given that, why wouldn't people of a nation built on making a stand against principles it doesn't believe it consider the possibility of taking drastic action? At what point do you finally give in? Can NOTHING be done pre-emptively to protect your own interests any more without people calling you an extremist?
You provided another uncited emotionalized fact about the disregard to the majority's wishes: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-03-23-health-poll-favorable_N.htm

So one bill passing that you don't agree with means that government is failing and you're going to start a revolution? This is the equivalent of not winning in stickball and taking your ball and going home. Except you are threatening the lives of civilians and the stability of the western hemisphere and the world.

[CBT]

Debunked? Please cite sources. <---there were about 5 cameras rolling, they were all replyed on the news, no one can hear anything that was claimed, and no one even reacted liked something horrible was said just outside of the cameras listening devices, so....
Death threats? No doubt?! You make it sound like you support it. <---I just spent 20 years in a killing machine, it would be hypocritical of me to take away someone's freedom of speech for making a veiled threat, wouldn't it?
Democracy? Yes, we're a democratic republic. We're not a generic republic, because a non-democratic republic could exist. <---when the overwhelming majority of the Republic does not want this but the Democrats pass it anyway, this is not a democratic society.

Feels like you confirmed the same rabidity exists here. :(

I'm rabid for peoples freedom to choose, I have insulted no one for their opinions here, but the facts are facts. A vote for this unconstitutional bill is a vote for socialism.

[xopher]

What cameras? What reactions? Got a link?

What about freedom and speech and veiled threats? I don't understand what you're getting at.

Overwhelming majority? How much is that? Like 75% against and 25% for? Please see the USA Today link in the post above yours.

As for unconstitutionality, can you please describe how it is unconstitutional or can your constitutional lawyer post something describing how this is true?

[Dr Caleb]

Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
Compared to 1993, wait times in 2007 are 97 per cent longer, report finds
Last Updated: Monday, October 15, 2007 | 4:09 PM ET
CBC News

How about something recent? Like, today?

"The Canadian Institute for Health Information released a report today that shows the majority of Canadian patients are getting surgery within an acceptable time frame and provinces have been successful in reducing their wait times."

http://www.calgaryherald.com/health/Alberta+Health+reducing+wait+t imes+some+procedures+still+lag ging+others/2721626/story.html




From the Canadian Institute for Health Information, 12/05;
From Specialist to surgery 50% for hip replacement - waited 4.5 months
From Specialist to surgery 50% for knee replacement - waited 7 months.


"Compared to previous years, we're looking at progress," said Tracy Johnson, the institute's manager of special projects. "Most Canadians are receiving their priority-area surgery for cancer, for hip surgery and for cataracts within the benchmarks."

http://www.calgaryherald.com/health/Alberta+lags+delivering+health +services+national+survey+find s/2724330/story.html



WHEN DOES GOV'T EVER HAVE ENOUGH MONEY AND WHEN DOES GOV'T SAY THE SOLUTION IS ANYTHING BUT MORE MONEY???[quote]

When isn't that the answer? If you want shorter 1350 times, it costs you money. If you want a bigger home, it costs you money. You want faster healthcare, it costs you money.

The point of public healthcare, is it costs everyone LESS money each, for better care. Something you appear to be ignoring - our system isn't perfect, but we pay less for it, live longer healthier lives and it costs us less per person to deliver it.

And quoting the Frasier Institute isn't going to score you any points. ;) They are on record as wanting a for-profit system where our working system used to be.

[QUOTE=sailsmen;884572]
" ST. JOHN 'S, N.L. -- Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States .
Deputy premier Kathy Dunderdale confirmed the treatment at a news conference Tuesday, but would not reveal the location of the operation or how it would be paid for."

Didn't read my link, huh? I linked to that story. He wanted a procedure not available in Canada, and paid for it himself. He would have been taken care of here, but he didn't want the normal surgery that came with an extended recovery period.

[MrBluGruv]

*commenting xopher*

That's all well and good that you cite that article, but you reach a point where so many outlets provide polls that say otherwise that you can't hardly ignore it as propaganda. Even supposed "liberal" outlets have spoken out against this and Mr Obama's methods, would you figure everyone is just out to get him but are wrong in their numbers?

And this bill is hardly the equivalent to a "game of stickball" in regards to lawmaking. "One little bill" could also completely abolish people's rights to own a gun, and you bet people would make a stand against that. I really hope you don't try to spin that into it being some sort of redneck propaganda too.

[MrBluGruv]

it costs everyone LESS money each

Wasn't one of the major points of problem with people opposed to the bill that it is socialist at its core? I know it sure as hell wouldn't cost me less money, I guess I'm factored as a minority being a young person though.

[Dr Caleb]

Yup, lack of will all right; your politicians know that raising taxes even higher to fund the balloning Canadian health care costs will go over about as well as a f@rt (f@rt) in church.

Yup, and that VAT tax is just something you pay for the heck of it, eh?

Yup, and who doesn't appreciate government control over their lives (e.g. rationed healthcare)?

More lies you have been fed. I pay no provincial taxes AT ALL. We have no added provincial taxes, nor 'Value Added Tax', whatever that is. And the federal GST was LOWERED 2%, along with basic personal exemptions on INCOME tax. And we ran a federal and provincial SURPLUS, 5 years consecutive before this 'downturn' hit us.

The government has no control over my life, and healthcare is not rationed anywhere in Canada.

[xopher]

That's all well and good that you cite that article, but you reach a point where so many outlets provide polls that say otherwise that you can't hardly ignore it as propaganda. Even supposed "liberal" outlets have spoken out against this and Mr Obama's methods, would you figure everyone is just out to get him but are wrong in their numbers?
Please post the outlets conflicting with the most recent assessment.


And this bill is hardly the equivalent to a "game of stickball" in regards to lawmaking. "One little bill" could also completely abolish people's rights to own a gun, and you bet people would make a stand against that. I really hope you don't try to spin that into it being some sort of redneck propaganda too.
I'm not talking about other bills. I'm talking about this one, about healthcare, not guns. As a level-headed gun owner and enthusiast, I'm aware of the world of misinformation there as well. In this thread, I'm talking about how people have behaved, and what facts they have decided to embrace or ignore depending on how they felt at the time.

[CBT]

What cameras? What reactions? Got a link? <---if you didn't see any of it, including the threat, why are you asking me to disprove it? You took someone elses word that it actually occurred?

What about freedom and speech and veiled threats? I don't understand what you're getting at. <---I just spent 20 years in an outfit (our government) that killed whoever, whenever, wherever they wanted. I could care less who makes a death threat to someone. Free speech for all.

Overwhelming majority? How much is that? Like 75% against and 25% for? Please see the USA Today link in the post above yours.

As for unconstitutionality, can you please describe how it is unconstitutional or can your constitutional lawyer post something describing how this is true?<---The federal government has never attempted to require the American people to buy a particular product in the private sector. It’s not supported by the Commerce Clause [which grants Congress the authority to regulate interstate commerce]. The 10th Amendment says it's not a power granted to the federal government but is reserved by the people. We are talking about forcing people to enter the stream of commerce, not about those already in, and need to be regulated. This will force people to go into the private market and buy a product on penalty of fine or going to jail. That is unprecedented, and there is no principal distinction between forcing Americans to go out into the private sector and buy a private product and forcing them to buy anything else that Congress gets in its mind to do.

I hope this helps clarify my opinions for you.

[MrBluGruv]

Please post the outlets conflicting with the most recent assessment.


I'm not talking about other bills. I'm talking about this one, about healthcare, not guns. As a level-headed gun owner and enthusiast, I'm aware of the world of misinformation there as well. In this thread, I'm talking about how people have behaved, and what facts they have decided to embrace or ignore depending on how they felt at the time.

Well as I can't get those prior statistics, I can't argue the point any more than all I can say is I've seen them countless times and I know I wasn't dreaming.

But my comparison to gun rights is completely valid in this case. When you say that this health care bill is just a bill, one could assume that about any bill. All I'm doing is putting that into perspective, if you can believe and understand how upset people would get about that, you should be able to understand how people can get upset about this as well. As I've said before, some of their behavior has been questionable (in some cases, very radical, yes), but it should not be impossible to see where it stems from.



I'll phrase this juxtaposition to the group as a whole, I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere else but I don't think I've seen it really thought about here or too many other places:

Given that many comparisons are being made along the lines of "government-run/socialized/institutionalized healthcare works well in 'x' country, it can work well in America", what would you have to say about that sentiment in comparison to almost the entire world's opinion on America trying to push our system of democracy onto other nations?

[CBT]

Given that many comparisons are being made along the lines of "government-run/socialized/institutionalized healthcare works well in 'x' country, it can work well in America", what would you have to say about that sentiment in comparison to almost the entire world's opinion on America trying to push our system of democracy onto other nations?

We do it at the end of a gun barrel. I'm sure the rest of the world loves it.

[Dr Caleb]

Wasn't one of the major points of problem with people opposed to the bill that it is socialist at its core? I know it sure as hell wouldn't cost me less money, I guess I'm factored as a minority being a young person though.

People south of 49 seem to get communism mixed up with socialism. They are very different. Communism does not involve commerce or democracy. Socialism is a more benevolent form of democratic government, that puts people first over commerce. It's nothing to be scared of. All of the G8 countries, and most of the G20 are socialist, and we seem to do just fine as far as freedom goes.

This bill doesn't approach what really needed to be done, IMO. Right now, I hear of people paying 2 and 3 THOUSAND dollars a month for healthcare coverage? I pay nothing. I pay through my taxes, specifically federal income tax and federal Goods and Services Tax (GST), which is about 17%-20% of my income. That also includes paying for things like fire, police, roads . . . and some of that goes toward healthcare.

The two things I see in the bill is they didn't have the balls to do. The first is to buy up all the insurance companies so that there would be only one insurer, or to legislate that the insurance companies could only cover things not covered by medicare. (We have private insurance companies here, like Blue Cross. They seem to do very well.) The second is some method to control costs.

That is how most socialized countries do it. Start with being the single health insurer and then say how much they will pay for a given procedure. I know some people's reaction will be that stifles innovation. But it doesn't. There are huge health centres, clinics and diagnostic labs all over the place here - and they are all privately owned. There are former shopping malls in my city that are almost totally specialized doctors clinics, offering everything from scalp to foot surgery. Services range from covered procedures, to elective. A sure sign there is no money in working is a socialized medical system. Right? ;)

Several companies have tried to build a for-profit private health service. They had clinics, hospitals etc. They all offered 'faster' and 'better' care. The all went belly up inside a couple years, because no one was unhappy enough with the public system to switch.

[sailsmen]

Dr., the "benchmarks" are set by whom? Dr., who determines "normal surgery"?

My mother had her knee replaced with in 2 weeks from injury, it was not a "priority surgery". Our area has had the largest population displacement in our Nation's history resulting in a shortage of most services.

My father had cancer surgery with in 6 weeks of symptoms and 2 weeks of that was due to us researching alternatives.

I posted that Federal workers make ~$40K more in pay and benefits than their private sector equivalent. Our Gov't increases cost of everything it does and is unable to forecast with any reasonableness future expenditures.

We have a diverse population consisting of groups who live 10-15% less and have a high incidence of certain illinesses.

I lived in the UK. My mother was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer in 1996. If you met her you would never know she has cancer. Had she lived in the UK she woul dbe DEAD.

My father was diagnosed with cancer in 1998. If you met him you would never know he had cancer. Today he is cancer free. In the USA they remove the cancer and reconstruct. In the UK they only radiate. Radiation would have left him disabled with a 70% lower chance of being cancer free.

His surgeon practised in the UK for 2 years and left because they were not allowing surgery.

The Cancer survival rate for men in Canada is 58% and for men in the USA is 66%.

As my father's surgeon said "cancer is a family business", so I have a rather keen interest.

[xopher]

I hope this helps clarify my opinions for you.
I saw articles about the insults and spitting, but I saw no mention of cameras or subsequent debunking articles. I'd love to see them.

My original point is that death threats are not civic participation, and are ignoble.

Still awaiting comments on the overwhelming majority.

Best response to the question I've hear all week. We'll see how the arguments play out in the Supreme Court, for which I imagine it is surely bound.


Well as I can't get those prior statistics, I can't argue the point any more than all I can say is I've seen them countless times and I know I wasn't dreaming.
I can't agree with you unless you have cited sources. Too many Americans are slurping up hearsay about important issues without really trying to understand it.



But my comparison to gun rights is completely valid in this case. When you say that this health care bill is just a bill, one could assume that about any bill. All I'm doing is putting that into perspective, if you can believe and understand how upset people would get about that, you should be able to understand how people can get upset about this as well. As I've said before, some of their behavior has been questionable (in some cases, very radical, yes), but it should not be impossible to see where it stems from.

No, I can't accept a pro-healthcare bill ass being a reasonable analogue for an anti-gun bill. They are fundamentally different things, as one does not have its own constitutional amendment and the other does.



I'll phrase this juxtaposition to the group as a whole, I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere else but I don't think I've seen it really thought about here or too many other places:

Given that many comparisons are being made along the lines of "government-run/socialized/institutionalized healthcare works well in 'x' country, it can work well in America", what would you have to say about that sentiment in comparison to almost the entire world's opinion on America trying to push our system of democracy onto other nations?
I like this; it's is a good analogy. In that hypothetical scenario, it makes me think that applying our system of democracy would potentially be of benefit to some countries and of detriment to others. Reverting back, I believe that our democratic republic, our bicameral legislature, our tripartite government, and civil discourse, can work towards a solution, not childish name-calling, not shaking heads on the tv, not screaming mouths on the radio, and not unsupported claims regurgitated ad infinitum amongst those unwilling to check the facts they are receiving.

[CBT]

There are huge health centres, clinics and diagnostic labs all over the place here - and they are all privately owned. There are former shopping malls in my city that are almost totally specialized doctors clinics, offering everything from scalp to foot surgery. Services range from covered procedures, to elective. A sure sign there is no money in working is a socialized medical system. Right? ;)

That's actually a pretty damn good idea!

[MrBluGruv]

We do it at the end of a gun barrel. I'm sure the rest of the world loves it.


lol, very nice.

Just for the record, I don't mean to be misconstrued here, my comparison about America and spreading democracy wasn't at all a political comment about it, just a comparison to the idea of other nations telling us we should accept their method of doing things because it works well for them.

[MrBluGruv]

No, I can't accept a pro-healthcare bill ass being a reasonable analogue for an anti-gun bill. They are fundamentally different things, as one does not have its own constitutional amendment and the other does.


I guess we'll have to disagree then. I'll leave it at this: my ultimate point with that comparison wasn't on the substance of each subject matter, but of the principle of the argument that only one bill should not be grounds to be greatly moved into action by.

[CBT]

Still awaiting comments on the overwhelming majority. <---you could use this thread as a litmus test, everyone who has posted is an adult of voting age, and the majority are not in favor of being fined by our own government to pay for someone elses health care.

I should have actually made a poll at the start of this, darn it.

[Haggis]

i should have actually made a poll at the start of this, darn it.

Oh Mary!!!!!!

[sailsmen]

Communisim - "a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party."

Socialism - " 1.a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles."

Having had over 750,000 battle casualties in Europe to save Europe from the National Socialist German Worker's Party we are very familiar with the so called "benevolance of Socialism".

[CBT]

lol, very nice. <---Thanx :D

Just for the record, I don't mean to be misconstrued here, my comparison about America and spreading democracy wasn't at all a political comment about it, just a comparison to the idea of other nations telling us we should accept their method of doing things because it works well for them.

Don't know what to say to that, really. I agree our health care system is jacked up, but this is not the way to fix it so everyone is covered. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is free. Not even the air you breathe once the cap and trade system becomes law, because we will all be paying to keep the air clean. But I digress...

[xopher]

I guess we'll have to disagree then. I'll leave it at this: my ultimate point with that comparison wasn't on the substance of each subject matter, but of the principle of the argument that only one bill should not be grounds to be greatly moved into action by.
Pick another hypothetical bill to compare it against for a better argument. Compare it to an omnibus transportation or agriculture bill. Because of different polarization, comparing it to a gun bill doesn't add to the honest exploration of the idea, it detracts from it.


I should have actually made a poll at the start of this, darn it.
But the demographics of this 14-page-deep thread on a semi-retro large muscle sedan message board, of whom the participants have self-selected themselves, are already doubly skewed. So it is not a good litmus test.

Internet opinion polls in sidebars are not reliable datasets because the extremists vote disproportionately. Moderates shrug/guess/make up an answer/or decide not to vote. People who are strongly for or against a topic are eager to have their voice known in whatever format they can access.

[sailsmen]

XOPHER - How quicly some forget the "Code Pink" and Seattle "peaceful demonstrations".

Apparently you have forgotten the left wing movie released about a sitting President being assasinated, including actual footage of the President.

[CBT]

Communisim - "a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party."

Socialism - " 1.a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles."

Having had over 750,000 battle casualties in Europe to save Europe from the National Socialist German Worker's Party we are very familiar with the so called "benevolance of Socialism".

Don't tell that to the Oba Mao followers, you'll be branded an extremist! But that's not as bad as the Department of Homeland Security branding me a potential terrorist because I'm a disgruntled veteran who believes in the First and Second Amendments. :(

[xopher]

Oba Mao
Really?


XOPHER - How quicly some forget the "Code Pink" and Seattle "peaceful demonstrations".

Tell me more.



Apparently you have forgotten the left wing movie released about a sitting President being assasinated, including actual footage of the President.
Are you referring to JFK? If it's a different movie, then I have indeed forgetten it. Please expound on this idea.

[CBT]

What cameras? What reactions? Got a link?

Yeah, I know FoxNews:rolleyes: but it's the first article that came up.



Tea Party Protesters Dispute Reports of Slurs, Spitting Against Dem Lawmakers

Monday, March 22, 2010 http://www.foxnews.com/images/foxnews_story.gif


A man was arrested for spitting on a congressman. No, he was let go.
Protesters shouted the "n-word" at black lawmakers. Witnesses say it never happened.
A gay congressman was called a slur. Yet he was accused of swearing at someone in the crowd before that.
These are the conflicting claims that have emerged from the series of tense encounters lawmakers say they endured with Tea Party protesters on Capitol Hill Saturday, in the final raucous hours before Congress approved the health care reform bill.
Claims that the protesters hurled anti-gay and racist epithets at them tore through the blogosphere in the run-up to the vote and were used to decry the protests, but Tea Party supporters are challenging those accounts, saying they didn't hear them, or at least that those responsible were not part of the Tea Party protest.
"Never did I hear any type of racial slur," said William Owens, a black Tea Party activist from Nevada who joined in the D.C. protests Saturday.
Here's what is known about Saturday's run-ins:

Several black lawmakers say that as they were walking by protesters on their way to a procedural vote on Capitol Hill, a group of demonstrators shouted at them and called them the n-word.
"They were just shouting, harassing," Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., a legend of the civil rights movement, said.
In addition, Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, a black congressman from Missouri, said he was spit on by someone in the crowd who was later detained.
Plus someone shouted a gay slur at Frank in the hallway of a House office building.
"Today's protests against health insurance reform saw a rash of despicable, inflammatory behavior," House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said.
Now here's where those accounts are called into question:
Though the claims of racist epithets against Lewis and other congressmen drew a lot of media attention, witnesses say they never heard such language and YouTube videos have surfaced that show protesters booing and shouting "Kill the Bill" but not shouting the n-word.
Kay Fischer, a protester from North Carolina, said she was watching the black lawmakers walk by and, like Owens, heard nothing of the sort.
Asked about such claims, Emanuel spokeswoman Mary Petrovic noted that the online videos of the incident are under a minute — and so don't show the entire encounter. She and stood by her boss' account.
"He heard slurs," she said.
There's another oddity about that incident. Cleaver's office initially claimed that a protester was arrested after spitting on him, but that the congressman decided not to press charges.
However, U.S. Capitol Police said the protester was never arrested. He was only detained and put in handcuffs, then released.
Sgt. Kimberly Schneider, spokeswoman for the Capitol Police, told FoxNews.com the individual was released because Cleaver couldn't identify him.
"There were no elements of a crime, and the individual wasn't able to be positively identified," she said. "(Cleaver) was unable to positively identify."
Asked about the Capitol Police account, Petrovic said it's not that Cleaver couldn't identify the suspect. It's that he wouldn't identify the suspect, because the police would have been "obligated" to make an arrest, which he didn't want.
"He was aware of that obligation and so did not make an identification," she said. "He saw who did it and he could have identified that person if necessary. But he chose not to."
As for the initial claim that the the individual was arrested, Petrovic said staff members mistakenly presumed he had been arrested because he was in handcuffs.
The account of the run-in with Frank gets a little more bizarre.
Though reporters heard someone call the Massachusetts Democrat, who is gay, a "faggot," and Frank and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer publicly condemned the slur, Fischer said the incident was not so cut and dry.
Most importantly, Fischer said Frank was the first to start using salty language.
She said she and a half-dozen other protesters were waiting outside a committee room in the Longworth House Office Building on Saturday for about 45 minutes when Frank finally emerged. He was mobbed by reporters, she said, and the protesters started shouting things like, "Kill the bill." Then she said Frank snapped at them.
"He looked at me and said, 'F--- you,'" she said.
Shortly after that, she said, a tall man with brown hair, who hadn't been chanting with the other protesters at all, walked up and said "fag" to Frank.
This has started to sprout some conspiracy theories.
Fischer said the protesters immediately admonished him and told him not to say things like that.
"I have gay friends. ... There were a bunch of people moaning like, 'Oh God,'" she said.
But she said the guy "disappeared" quickly and that was the end of it.
Fischer said she has no idea where he came from, and alleged he was a plant, though she couldn't prove it.
"I think it was staged," she said.
Frank's office was unable to provide clarity.
Frank spokesman Harry Gural said his office does not know the identity of the man who shouted the slur but said it's "highly unlikely" that anything was staged.
And he couldn't fathom his boss swearing at a protester.
"I really doubt that," Gural said. "I've never heard him use that language with people before."

[LIGHTNIN1]

That has been proven the case almost every time.These are phony accusations by the left.One time a reporter made it up that some one shouted Kill Him at an Obama rally.It turned out that the reporter made it up and reported it. Eric Cantors Richmond campaign office was shot at but nobody cares because he is Republican. A black cancer patient in a wheelchair was beat up last year at a tea party in St, Louis by SEIU people but that is OK because he was a Tea Partier. Why did Pelosi and that group chose a "We are going to shove it down your throat attitude" by carrying that gavel and walking through the protesters?

[Dr Caleb]

Dr., the "benchmarks" are set by whom? Dr., who determines "normal surgery"?

The Health Board of the respective province. Each Province or Territory does it differently. The Federal Government budgets each of the 13 health boards a given funding cap, and the boards determine how best to spend that money.



My mother had her knee replaced with in 2 weeks from injury, it was not a "priority surgery". Our area has had the largest population displacement in our Nation's history resulting in a shortage of most services.

My father had cancer surgery with in 6 weeks of symptoms and 2 weeks of that was due to us researching alternatives.

Care here is administered by Doctors. They decide priories, just like your doctors decide.



I posted that Federal workers make ~$40K more in pay and benefits than their private sector equivalent. Our Gov't increases cost of everything it does and is unable to forecast with any reasonableness future expenditures.

We have a diverse population consisting of groups who live 10-15% less and have a high incidence of certain illinesses.

We also have a diverse population. Certain cancers are prevalent with our native population in the north east portion of the province, and there is an unusually hig ocurrence of Chrons disease, Lupus and ulcerative colitis in the Province of Alberta.

That's the benefit of provincially run health - we can adapt for these differences as compared to Canada or North America in general.



The Cancer survival rate for men in Canada is 58% and for men in the USA is 66%.

What forms of cancer? I suspect these are more lies you have been fed.

"In the report, data from almost 2 million cancer patients from 31 countries showed that the U.S. has the highest survival rates for breast and prostate cancer, Japan has the highest survival rates for colon and rectal cancers in men and France has the highest survival rates for colon and rectal cancer in women. "

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080716/cancer_statistics_080716/20080716/

I'm not a doctor, so I don't know what you expect me to say about your specific cases here. It's good that they are better though. I'm sure there are many people here with similar stories. My mother had inoperable lung cancer. But they did some fancy radiation treatment that cause her to go into remission for 6 years before the tumours returned. They were 6 great years.

I do know that the University of Alberta is also doing one of the biggest trials of cancer treatments in the world. Using DCA to see if it cures many forms of cancer without radiation. But drug companies won't fund the study, because their patent has expired and there is little profit in the study.

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/06/0624253



As my father's surgeon said "cancer is a family business", so I have a rather keen interest.

I would be too. Diabetes and stroke run in my family, which is why I do everything I can to manage it. Strange concept isn't it? We are responsible for our own health. The government isn't involved.

[CBT]

Really?
Yes, it says Oba Mao on his birth certificate. Don't believe me? Hang on, I'll post a copy.....ooooohhhh yeeeeaaaah, that's right, I can't.:D

[CBT]

So Health Care Bill; Yes or No? Judges?

Randy: "I'm not feelin' it, dawg."

Paula::beer::rasta::drink:

Simon: "What....was....that? You disgust me. You put the "ill" in "Bill". GTFO, noob."

[Joe Walsh]

So Health Care Bill; Yes or No? Judges?



Because the Healthcare Bill was presented in such an open and 'transparent' method, there was no obvious backroom deal making nor political pay-offs for votes, and it is only 2,400 pages long...
I feel confident that our elected officials have listened to the voting public and done us right!

I mean...look at how successful Social Security is!

:rolleyes:

[LIGHTNIN1]

The poll I saw says 62% of the public want the Republicans to keep opposing the healthcare bill. If it is such a good thing for us I think we would know it. Why do they have to travel nationwide to try and sell it now that it is law? Maybe one thing is now someone knows what it contains. The other is when companies start layoffs because of it they are trying to save a few congressional seats in November. I am waiting on my free car from them.

[LeoVampire]

And YES Health CARE IN AMERICA IS BIG BUSINESS!!!!!

All the other times this country as tryed to impliment a better health care system big Buisness has greased the plams of the men in office that would vote in a way to make them richer and keep money flowing properly into their pockets in the long run.

Nixon and HMO's is the best example. That is what started the real problems behind the Health Insurance industry and how people have to pay and they decied what we can and can not get for proceedures coverd by the people you pay coverage for these same services.

Look almost everyone in the health care INDUSTRY is about to lose money that is being put into their pockets from each and every one of US!

They could not bribe the right people this time to stop the bill so now they are handing money to the individual state's willing to take the bribe's to take up their cause!

They are feeding into the fears of many over change to fuel their need to keep the profits going in the way they are use to living, THE GOOD LIFE!

Now that it is about to change for them they will do anything and everything to cause a problem and to fuel the debate rather than let everyone calm down and get a good picture of what is going to happen and how this can be made to work as best as possable for everyone in this country.

Do we need cosmetic surgery for people who want to look younger and better? For people who have been disfigured yes it is a great thing and I would say needed but not for people who want to feel younger.

DO we need Lipo suction when it is only for cosmetic reasons and not due to health care needs?

And other country's have a problem getting good doctors and enough of them BECAUSE comming to AMERICA and getting RICH is a much better prospect!

Live over seas and get a free education so they have no bills to pay back and then come to America and start to practice to become rich! This needs to be stoped YES! Or No?

There are a lot of pictures to look at when it comes to the health care INDUSTRY and BIG BUSINESS is making sure we do not look @ them in the first place!

[sailsmen]

Dr. - it is good that you are satisified with your countries health care.

Perhaps the reason this thread is so popular is because;
"September 23, 2009
Cost Is Foremost Healthcare Issue for AmericansBut public largely skeptical that healthcare reform will bring reliefby Lydia SaadPage: 12 PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans are broadly satisfied with the quality of their own medical care and healthcare costs, but of the two, satisfaction with costs lags. Overall, 80% are satisfied with the quality of medical care available to them"

As far as big business is concerned the largest corporation in the world is Royal Dutch Shell and their annual sales are $458 Billion. The Federal Gov't in spends $3.6 Trillion! Big Gov't is way bigger than Big Business!

[SC Cheesehead]

More lies you have been fed. I pay no provincial taxes AT ALL. We have no added provincial taxes, nor 'Value Added Tax', whatever that is. And the federal GST was LOWERED 2%, along with basic personal exemptions on INCOME tax. And we ran a federal and provincial SURPLUS, 5 years consecutive before this 'downturn' hit us.

The government has no control over my life, and healthcare is not rationed anywhere in Canada.

Sorry for my incorrect terminology. VAT = GST, and if I recall, it was somewhere around 13% plus added to any purchase I made up there. Call it whatever you like, that's how you're funding your "free" health care.

I'm having a hard time understanding how long waiting lists for health services doesn't qualify as rationing. And I KNOW that's not a lie, the majority of my relatives are Canadians, and have heard first-hand about the wait for services several of them have endured.

[sailsmen]

The Health Board of the respective province. Each Province or Territory does it differently. The Federal Government budgets each of the 13 health boards a given funding cap, and the boards determine how best to spend that money.

What happens when the "funding cap" is met, can my mother and father still get the surgeries they require by the "bench mark"?


What forms of cancer? I suspect these are more lies you have been fed.
Here are the "lies" from the report you cite;

The U.S. has a five-year survival rate in all the cancers studied of 91.9 per cent, while Europe's is much lower at 57.1 per cent. However, survival rates within the U.S. can vary.

The range of survival rates across the five provinces was quite narrow, from a low of 79.3 per cent in Nova Scotia to a high of 85.4 per cent in British Columbia."


I would be too. Diabetes and stroke run in my family, which is why I do everything I can to manage it. Strange concept isn't it? We are responsible for our own health. The government isn't involved.

"The government isn't involved" is contrary to your posts.

You keep saying I am being feed "lies" and yet these "lies" you speak of come from numerous and diverse respected sources including the Canadian HEalth Institue. Perhaps there is a huge conspiracy to promote these "lies"? More "lies";
"Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 8:35 PM


Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canada's doctors
By Jennifer Graham (CP) – 2 days ago
SASKATOON — The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.
Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.
"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.
"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."
The pitch for change at the conference is to start with a presentation from Dr. Robert Ouellet, the current president of the CMA, who has said there's a critical need to make Canada's health-care system patient-centred. He will present details from his fact-finding trip to Europe in January, where he met with health groups in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands and France.
His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that "a health-care revolution has passed us by," that it's possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and "that competition should be welcomed, not feared."
In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.
He has also said the Canadian system could be restructured to focus on patients if hospitals and other health-care institutions received funding based on the patients they treat, instead of an annual, lump-sum budget. This "activity-based funding" would be an incentive to provide more efficient care, he has said."

[Dr Caleb]

Dr. - it is good that you are satisified with your countries health care.

Perhaps the reason this thread is so popular is because;
"September 23, 2009
Cost Is Foremost Healthcare Issue for AmericansBut public largely skeptical that healthcare reform will bring reliefby Lydia SaadPage: 12 PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans are broadly satisfied with the quality of their own medical care and healthcare costs, but of the two, satisfaction with costs lags. Overall, 80% are satisfied with the quality of medical care available to them"

I never said anyone was dissatisfied with the quality of the US system. I only say that for every measure of what 'health care' should be; cost, coverage, longevity and infant live birth rate; we have improved over the US system. So what if you can't afford a private room after you get a hip replaced? If you have supplemental insurance, you can get one or pay out of pocket. You will still get the surgery, and you will get no bill afterwards. You will live, and the quality of that life will improve. Socialized health care isn't a scary thing, and it's greatly improved the quality of our lives.

There has to be a way you guys can get the quality you are used to, at better prices with better results. And you guys are being lied to, by the people who's only motivation is to keep their gravy train running. We know, because we see them trying the same thing with our system. That's all I'm saying.



As far as big business is concerned the largest corporation in the world is Royal Dutch Shell and their annual sales are $458 Billion. The Federal Gov't in spends $3.6 Trillion! Big Gov't is way bigger than Big Business!

That's also not my point. The federal and provincial governments here are also the largest employers and spenders - but all other employers outnumber them employee and spending wise.

My point is, your health should not be subject to a profit margin, any more than a fire or police department should have a mandate to run in 'the black'. Imagine if the FBI's budget came from confiscated monies? Would there be a rush of FBI activity when the budget starts to run low? Why should Health care be delivered in the same way? The only way to increase profit margins then is to cut corners, and people suffer. Around here, that means people 'wait' longer for some things, but they will be looked after as soon as possible. But, they will be looked after. That's the price for controlling costs.

But, controlling costs in a socialized system also starts with prevention. We know that encouraging exercise, quitting smoking and educating people about their diet are far more effective in the long term at controlling costs. With a private system, how does the public get education on the best way to improve their own health? Are programs like Participaction (http://www.participaction.com/en-us/Home.aspx) or Canada's Food Guide (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/food-guide-aliment/index-eng.php) even possible without government money?

Police, fire, military, roads, water, sewer access . . health care. These are things we demand in modern society, and we elect people to make sure these things are taken care of for us. They don't have to earn profit, they just have to fulfil their mandate and provide to us what we are paying for.

[Dr Caleb]

Sorry for my incorrect terminology. VAT = GST, and if I recall, it was somewhere around 13% plus added to any purchase I made up there. Call it whatever you like, that's how you're funding your "free" health care.

I'm having a hard time understanding how long waiting lists for health services doesn't qualify as rationing. And I KNOW that's not a lie, the majority of my relatives are Canadians, and have heard first-hand about the wait for services several of them have endured.

Like I said. We pay 5% federal GST. Not a penny in provincial taxes. Not 13%.

You answered your own question. Wait lists are not rationing. Wait lists ocurr for many reasons, including that there may only be a limited number of surgeons to perform the operation. Doctors aren't machines, and can only work so fast. And like I showed, wait lists are shrinking because we made the investment in more doctors.

[Leadfoot281]

What ever happened to Free Market competiton? Good grief!

I can drive across town and find 1,000's cars for sale from $250 all the way up to $70,000+. Any color you like. Any options you want. Even options you don't want. All because of the power of the Free Market.

With health care I don't get any choices. I'd like to buy a super cheap policy that covers broken bones, STD's from the town bike, and cancer coverage. But I can't. I have to buy a policy that covers a million and one things I'll never, ever need. I even have to do this for people I don't even know.

Now apparently the Constitution reads that there is some sort of mandatory "cover charge" just for living here. If I don't pay this "cover charge", a bouncer (IRS agent) will throw me out ( and into prison).

The party of choice has left us without any.

[sailsmen]

Having lived in the UK I can attest to "socialized medicine" and it is a disaster.

Looking at the Cancer Survival rates from several studies, having lived under the UK Socialized Med and my own parents experience if I had Cancer today I would only want to be treated in one country and that is the USA.

The city of Houston has more clincal trials than many countries.

I will take a private profit healthcare provider over a Gov't healthcare provider any time. I have used both.

Most things for "free" are not very good.

[sailsmen]

Really?


Tell me more.


Are you referring to JFK? If it's a different movie, then I have indeed forgetten it. Please expound on this idea.

I will not promote the "movie", it was made as a "documentary" with actual footage of Pres Bush through out.

You can easily do a search.

To imply that there is more "hate" on the right than the left is wrong. A search of "hate speech" yields far more on leftist sites than rightist sites. No matter there is always plenty of hate and no group has a fanchise on it.

[Spectragod]

What ever happened to Free Market competiton? Good grief!

I can drive across town and find 1,000's cars for sale from $250 all the way up to $70,000+. Any color you like. Any options you want. Even options you don't want. All because of the power of the Free Market.

With health care I don't get any choices. I'd like to buy a super cheap policy that covers broken bones, STD's from the town bike, and cancer coverage. But I can't. I have to buy a policy that covers a million and one things I'll never, ever need. I even have to do this for people I don't even know.

Now apparently the Constitution reads that there is some sort of mandatory "cover charge" just for living here. If I don't pay this "cover charge", a bouncer (IRS agent) will throw me out ( and into prison).

The party of choice has left us without any.


So.... how do you like "change" now? This seems to be what people were saying before the "chosen one" got elected, but hey, what did we know?

[Leadfoot281]

Health care in Cuba. http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

Warning. This is Graphic.

Didn't some one make a movie about this too?

[Leadfoot281]

So.... how do you like "change" now? This seems to be what people were saying before the chosen one got elected, but hey, what did we know?

I'm siding with the majority of America on that topic. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/march_2010/55_favor_repeal_of_health_care _bill

Castro likes likes the new system though. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-cb-health-care-fidel-castro,0,470625.story

[Bigdogjim]

Obama Admin. Declares 'The End of Favoring Motorized Transportation' (http://ow.ly/16StcW)

CNSNews.com) - Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has announced that federal transportation policies will no longer favor “motorized” transportation, such as cars and trucks, over “non-motorized” transportation, such as walking and bicycling...

“Today, I want to announce a sea change,” LaHood wrote. “People across America who value bicycling should have a voice when it comes to transportation planning. This is the end of favoring motorized transportation at the expense of non-motorized.”


Flood gates are open, folks. C.Y.C.B.I...:shake:

See MotorCoach (bus) is safe so my job is OK :)

See you all on the bus:banana: :lol:

[SC Cheesehead]

See MotorCoach (bus) is safe so my job is OK :)

See you all on the bus:banana: :lol:

Wait'll they start making you pedal that bad boy, BDJ...;)

[W4LTD]

Socialized medicine is a pejorative term used primarily in the United States to refer to certain kinds of publicly-funded health care. The term is used most frequently, and often pejoratively, in the U.S. political debate concerning health care. The term was first widely used in the United States by advocates of the American Medical Association in opposition to President Harry S Truman's 1947 health-care initiative.

Jonathan Oberlander, a professor of health policy at the University of North Carolina, maintains that the term does not mean anything at all. Exact definitions vary, but the term can refer to any system of medical care that is publicly financed, government administered, or both.

The original meaning was confined to systems in which the government operates health care facilities and employs health care professionals. This narrower usage would apply to the British National Health Service hospital trusts and health systems that operate in other countries as diverse as Finland, Spain, Israel, and Cuba. The United States' Veterans Health Administration, and the medical departments of the US Army, Navy, and Air Force would also fall under this narrow definition. When used in this way, the narrow definition permits a clear distinction from single payer health insurance systems, in which the government finances health care but is not involved in care delivery.

More recently, a few have used the term more broadly to any publicly funded system. Canada's Medicare system, most of the UK's NHS general practitioner and dental services, which are all systems where health care is delivered by private business with partial or total government funding, fit this broader definition, as do the health care systems of most of Western Europe. In the United States, Medicare, Medicaid, and the US military's TRICARE fall under this definition.

Most industrialized countries, and many developing countries, operate some form of publicly-funded health care with universal coverage as the goal. According to the Institute of Medicine and others, the United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not provide universal health care.

The term is often used in the U.S to create an understanding that the health care system would be run by the government, thereby associating it with socialism, which has negative connotations in American political culture.

[Phrog_gunner]

The government is obviously much better equipped to provide medical care than private companies, just look at the dental care in the UK.

[W4LTD]

The government is obviously much better equipped to provide medical care than private companies, just look at the dental care in the UK.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation :D

[MERCMAN]

Just an interesting statistic.
There are more MRI's within a 5 mile radius of Indianapolis than the entire country of Canada

[Phrog_gunner]

Just an interesting statistic.
There are more MRI's within a 5 mile radius of Indianapolis than the entire country of Canada

You better hope the chosen one doesn't find out about your fear mongering.

[SC Cheesehead]

This just in:

"...While everyone else in the United States -- from the top corporate executives to the grocery store checkout clerk -- will be forced to buy their insurance through heavily regulated state-run exchanges, the health care bill excludes one group: the leadership and committee staff. Yes, that’s right. The very people who wrote up this bill are refusing to be included themselves. Given the narrow definition of “congressional staff” on page 158 of the health care bill, the Congressional Research Service memo believes (http://www.rollcall.com/issues/55_109/news/44605-1.html) that courts will not require “professional committee staff, joint committee staff, some shared staff, as well as potentially those staff employed by leadership offices” to go through the exchanges. President Obama and his family are also exempt from the law..."

C.Y.C.B.I. = BOHICA

[Phrog_gunner]

This just in:

"...While everyone else in the United States -- from the top corporate executives to the grocery store checkout clerk -- will be forced to buy their insurance through heavily regulated state-run exchanges, the health care bill excludes one group: the leadership and committee staff. Yes, that’s right. The very people who wrote up this bill are refusing to be included themselves. Given the narrow definition of “congressional staff” on page 158 of the health care bill, the Congressional Research Service memo believes (http://www.rollcall.com/issues/55_109/news/44605-1.html) that courts will not require “professional committee staff, joint committee staff, some shared staff, as well as potentially those staff employed by leadership offices” to go through the exchanges. President Obama and his family are also exempt from the law..."

C.Y.C.B.I. = BOHICA

Singling out the pres like that is racist!

[sailsmen]

With the passage of this Bill that excludes Congress, the Executive and their staff we now have 2 America's. One for the Political Elite and One for everyonelse.

Having lived through Katrina I do not want Local, State or Federal Gov't having anything to do with my health care. Katrina resulted in large sums of additional money being controlled by Gov't in this region. On average in an area with a population less than 800K we have 1 conviction per week of Public Corruption. I do not want these crooks in charge of my health care.

Gov't serves Gov't.

[CBT]

Maybe we could all join Obama in prayer and put our faith in ... . .uh... ..
19257

[guspech750]

Maybe we could all join Obama in prayer and put our faith in ... . .uh... ..
19257
Put our faith in his "package"

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn19/marauding4life/23554_356757487345_60447222345 _3590.jpg

[LIGHTNIN1]

Castro is praising this health plan. That should inspire confidence in the system. We will revert back to the 1800's when whiskey was the dominant medicine. Sounds like Soviet Union.

[SC Cheesehead]

Castro is praising this health plan. That should inspire confidence in the system. We will revert back to the 1800's when whiskey was the dominant medicine. Sounds like Soviet Union.

Well, maybe this whole Obamacare deal won't be so bad after all.... ;)------> :drink: ------> :D

[CBT]

SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

-Winston Churchill-

[Joe Walsh]

SOCIALISM is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

-Winston Churchill-

Isn't that the truth!

We are headed towards everyone having the same thing...social and economic equity for all*!!
The Democrats nirvana!
What you end up with is the lowest common denominator for all, and the government controlling everything.

*even those who contribute nothing to society.

[jerrym3]

Response from local NJ congressman. You make the call.


On Sunday March 21, 2010, the U.S. House of Representatives passed legislation, with my support, that will make health insurance coverage accessible to all uninsured Americans, provide all those who are currently insured with more security and control over their own health care, lower costs for everyone over the long term, and reduce our national deficit. This law makes history, as the most significant commitment to the quality of life and financial security of all Americans, since the creation of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.



The national conversation about health care reform has been ongoing for nearly a century, since the time of President Theodore Roosevelt. Over the last fourteen months, throughout my district and many others, this legislation has been debated thoroughly in the halls of Congress, at town hall meetings, in boardrooms and around kitchen tables all across America. Virtually every argument for and against this legislation has been carefully considered.



For years, the status-quo has made access to health care increasingly more expensive and unattainable for many American families, individuals, and businesses. Health insurance has become so unaffordable for so many, that now more than 36 million Americans are uninsured, and many more are sadly joining those ranks daily. Last year, half of Americans postponed or skipped medical care because they simply could not afford it. Unforeseen medical bills caused 62% of all bankruptcies in our country. This should never happen in the United States of America, and this new law will make sure that it never does again.



There have been many myths and misrepresentations that have circulated about this legislation. Here are the facts:



Seniors have been particularly concerned about health care reform -- they have nothing to worry about. Here is why:



o This law will not reduce Medicare benefits. In fact, in endorsing the legislation, the AARP confirmed that the bill "protects and strengthens guaranteed benefits in Medicare" and "improves efforts to crack down on fraud and waste in Medicare, strengthening the program for today's and future generations of seniors."

o The Medicare Trust Fund, which is currently projected to run out of money by 2017, will be extended at least through 2026.

o Immediately after enactment, seniors who fall into the "Donut Hole" will receive a $250 rebate. Starting in 2011, seniors will receive a 50% discount on all brand-name drugs for those in the Donut Hole. By 2020, the Donut Hole will be eliminated entirely!

o Seniors will also benefit from better chronic care, with doctors working together to provide patient-centered help for the 80% of older Americans who have at least one chronic medical condition, like high blood pressure, or diabetes.

o The new law will also increase Medicare payments to doctors for primary care, protecting access to these vital services for seniors.

o Finally, it will encourage reimbursing health care providers based on the quality of health care, rather than its quantity, taking away incentives to subject seniors to procedures and tests they do not need.



Under this law, no federal money will be provided to fund abortion, cover illegal immigrants, ration health care, or deny portability. There is nothing in this act that will force you to change the insurance or the doctor you have now. Given the savings produced by this law, it will not add to the deficit, but will, in fact -- according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office -- reduce the deficit by $138 billion in the first ten years after its enactment, and save an additional $1.2 trillion in the second 10 years!



In addition, several other very important provisions will take effect immediately:



o They will allow for immediate access to health insurance coverage, without discrimination, for children with pre-existing conditions.

o Provide coverage, through a temporary high-risk pool for adult Americans with pre-existing conditions, until 2014 when the Health Insurance Exchanges (the "Exchanges") are fully operational.

o Place a ban on lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on coverage that currently force people into bankruptcy when they suffer from a severe chronic illness or experience a catastrophic injury.

o Allow young people to remain on their parents' insurance policies until their 26th birthday.

o Provide tax credits to small businesses to make employee coverage more affordable.

o Require insurance companies to spend at least 80% of premium dollars on medical services, rather than on executives' paychecks or marketing.




Over the next few years, the remainder of the law will go into effect:


o Insurance companies will be banned from denying coverage of any pre-existing conditions.

o Health Insurance Exchanges will be created in each state: marketplaces where uninsured Americans and small businesses will be able to shop for quality, affordable, private health insurance. Those who previously purchased their insurance directly, or those who had no insurance, will now have access to greater choices of policies, at lower costs given the expanded pool of insured individuals. Members of Congress and their staff will be required to obtain health insurance through the same Exchanges.

o Consumers will be able to purchase out-of-state plans, while retaining the protections of their home state's insurance regulations.

o Middle class Americans with annual incomes below $88,200 for a family of four, or individuals making less than $43,320 will receive tax credits to help them afford insurance premiums and out-of-pocket medical costs. This amounts to the biggest middle class tax cut for individuals, families, and small businesses for health care in U.S. history!

o Small businesses with less than 100 employees will also be able to join the Exchanges, benefiting from group rates, lower costs and a greater choice of insurers. Small businesses with 25 employees or less, with wages of less than $50,000 per employee, will qualify for tax credits of up to 50% of the costs of providing health insurance to their employees. Sole proprietors will be able to deduct the full cost of their own health insurance. Small businesses will be able to pay less for their employees' insurance policies, and thereby free vital capital to invest in hiring new employees.



From the very beginning, one of my goals has been to make certain that the "best and the brightest" continue to pursue the field of medicine. That is why I was so pleased that this legislation invests in the high quality training of more primary care doctors, nurses, and health care professionals, and increases payments to primary care doctors under Medicare and Medicaid. In addition, each state will be provided with monies to develop and implement systems to reduce frivolous law suits and the practice of "defensive" medicine. More can and should be done with tort reform, but this was an important first step toward these goals.



That is why more than 325 organizations, representing millions of Americans, have endorsed this bill, including the AARP, the American Medical Association, the American College of Physicians, the American Nurses Association, the American Cancer Society, the Main Street Alliance, the Consumer Federation of America, 59,000 Catholic nuns, the National Catholic Reporter, the Catholic Health Care Association, the Lutheran Health Network, the United Methodist Church, the Eastern Diocese of the Armenian Church, the AFL-CIO, the American Heart Association, the Children's Defense Fund, the National Association of Children's Hospitals, and the League of Women Voters, among many others.



I made the decision to vote in favor of this legislation only after spending hundreds of hours in meetings and hearings, poring over every proposal for reform, meeting with members of the health care industry, hearing the opinions of my constituents in the fourteen town hall meetings that I hosted, reading thousands of their letters and emails, and talking with them on the phone and throughout my district. I am confident that this law will make marked improvements in the lives of my constituents, and will begin to correct the problems in our present system that cause so much waste, heartache and tragedy for so many Americans.






Sincerely,

Mr X
Member of Congress :

[MMBLUE]

WOW!! started reading that thing and gave up after the 5th line.


Response from local NJ congressman. You make the call.


On Sunday March 21, 2010, the U.S. House of Representatives passed legislation, with my support, that will make health insurance coverage accessible to all uninsured Americans, provide all those who are currently insured with more security and control over their own health care, lower costs for everyone over the long term, and reduce our national deficit. This law makes history, as the most significant commitment to the quality of life and financial security of all Americans, since the creation of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.



The national conversation about health care reform has been ongoing for nearly a century, since the time of President Theodore Roosevelt. Over the last fourteen months, throughout my district and many others, this legislation has been debated thoroughly in the halls of Congress, at town hall meetings, in boardrooms and around kitchen tables all across America. Virtually every argument for and against this legislation has been carefully considered.



For years, the status-quo has made access to health care increasingly more expensive and unattainable for many American families, individuals, and businesses. Health insurance has become so unaffordable for so many, that now more than 36 million Americans are uninsured, and many more are sadly joining those ranks daily. Last year, half of Americans postponed or skipped medical care because they simply could not afford it. Unforeseen medical bills caused 62% of all bankruptcies in our country. This should never happen in the United States of America, and this new law will make sure that it never does again.



There have been many myths and misrepresentations that have circulated about this legislation. Here are the facts:



Seniors have been particularly concerned about health care reform -- they have nothing to worry about. Here is why:



o This law will not reduce Medicare benefits. In fact, in endorsing the legislation, the AARP confirmed that the bill "protects and strengthens guaranteed benefits in Medicare" and "improves efforts to crack down on fraud and waste in Medicare, strengthening the program for today's and future generations of seniors."

o The Medicare Trust Fund, which is currently projected to run out of money by 2017, will be extended at least through 2026.

o Immediately after enactment, seniors who fall into the "Donut Hole" will receive a $250 rebate. Starting in 2011, seniors will receive a 50% discount on all brand-name drugs for those in the Donut Hole. By 2020, the Donut Hole will be eliminated entirely!

o Seniors will also benefit from better chronic care, with doctors working together to provide patient-centered help for the 80% of older Americans who have at least one chronic medical condition, like high blood pressure, or diabetes.

o The new law will also increase Medicare payments to doctors for primary care, protecting access to these vital services for seniors.

o Finally, it will encourage reimbursing health care providers based on the quality of health care, rather than its quantity, taking away incentives to subject seniors to procedures and tests they do not need.



Under this law, no federal money will be provided to fund abortion, cover illegal immigrants, ration health care, or deny portability. There is nothing in this act that will force you to change the insurance or the doctor you have now. Given the savings produced by this law, it will not add to the deficit, but will, in fact -- according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office -- reduce the deficit by $138 billion in the first ten years after its enactment, and save an additional $1.2 trillion in the second 10 years!



In addition, several other very important provisions will take effect immediately:



o They will allow for immediate access to health insurance coverage, without discrimination, for children with pre-existing conditions.

o Provide coverage, through a temporary high-risk pool for adult Americans with pre-existing conditions, until 2014 when the Health Insurance Exchanges (the "Exchanges") are fully operational.

o Place a ban on lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on coverage that currently force people into bankruptcy when they suffer from a severe chronic illness or experience a catastrophic injury.

o Allow young people to remain on their parents' insurance policies until their 26th birthday.

o Provide tax credits to small businesses to make employee coverage more affordable.

o Require insurance companies to spend at least 80% of premium dollars on medical services, rather than on executives' paychecks or marketing.




Over the next few years, the remainder of the law will go into effect:


o Insurance companies will be banned from denying coverage of any pre-existing conditions.

o Health Insurance Exchanges will be created in each state: marketplaces where uninsured Americans and small businesses will be able to shop for quality, affordable, private health insurance. Those who previously purchased their insurance directly, or those who had no insurance, will now have access to greater choices of policies, at lower costs given the expanded pool of insured individuals. Members of Congress and their staff will be required to obtain health insurance through the same Exchanges.

o Consumers will be able to purchase out-of-state plans, while retaining the protections of their home state's insurance regulations.

o Middle class Americans with annual incomes below $88,200 for a family of four, or individuals making less than $43,320 will receive tax credits to help them afford insurance premiums and out-of-pocket medical costs. This amounts to the biggest middle class tax cut for individuals, families, and small businesses for health care in U.S. history!

o Small businesses with less than 100 employees will also be able to join the Exchanges, benefiting from group rates, lower costs and a greater choice of insurers. Small businesses with 25 employees or less, with wages of less than $50,000 per employee, will qualify for tax credits of up to 50% of the costs of providing health insurance to their employees. Sole proprietors will be able to deduct the full cost of their own health insurance. Small businesses will be able to pay less for their employees' insurance policies, and thereby free vital capital to invest in hiring new employees.



From the very beginning, one of my goals has been to make certain that the "best and the brightest" continue to pursue the field of medicine. That is why I was so pleased that this legislation invests in the high quality training of more primary care doctors, nurses, and health care professionals, and increases payments to primary care doctors under Medicare and Medicaid. In addition, each state will be provided with monies to develop and implement systems to reduce frivolous law suits and the practice of "defensive" medicine. More can and should be done with tort reform, but this was an important first step toward these goals.



That is why more than 325 organizations, representing millions of Americans, have endorsed this bill, including the AARP, the American Medical Association, the American College of Physicians, the American Nurses Association, the American Cancer Society, the Main Street Alliance, the Consumer Federation of America, 59,000 Catholic nuns, the National Catholic Reporter, the Catholic Health Care Association, the Lutheran Health Network, the United Methodist Church, the Eastern Diocese of the Armenian Church, the AFL-CIO, the American Heart Association, the Children's Defense Fund, the National Association of Children's Hospitals, and the League of Women Voters, among many others.



I made the decision to vote in favor of this legislation only after spending hundreds of hours in meetings and hearings, poring over every proposal for reform, meeting with members of the health care industry, hearing the opinions of my constituents in the fourteen town hall meetings that I hosted, reading thousands of their letters and emails, and talking with them on the phone and throughout my district. I am confident that this law will make marked improvements in the lives of my constituents, and will begin to correct the problems in our present system that cause so much waste, heartache and tragedy for so many Americans.






Sincerely,

Mr X
Member of Congress :

[Rocknthehawk]

This bill includes NOTHING about cost! (unless I've read wrong.)

It's like a car salesman told me once...

"So, you want a newer/nicer car, AND a lower payment?.....hahahaha"

Yeah. We're going to get this awesome new health care, at a lower cost!

riiiight.