Minnesota Fuel

[mnxtrik8r]

Ok guys,
Informal survey. I am trying to get to the bottom of a detonation issue on Trilogy 214. I am using 93 minimum octane with NO ethanol,NO oxygenating compounds of any kind, just good ol' fashion gasoline. I have been using this for years in my boat,atvs,small engines with great success. I have spent more time troubleshooting the car to trace this down than I did installing the Trilogy. I am running the 91 tune.So I am curious what the rest of the Minnesota gang is running.Historically our fuel resembles urine at times and I am trying to get some resolution to this. I am thinking about puling a sample and getting it tested. Is there any reputable testing sites that anyone knows of. Thanks for listening to me snivel. Hope all is is well with everyone.

[jdando]

I think there are only 2 or 3 stock Trilogys' here in MN.

That being said, I run 92 octane from Holiday here in the Twin Cities. I have never heard knocking from the car with or without the s/c.

[mnxtrik8r]

Looks like it's time to find a lab to analyze the fuel and see if it's the culprit. There must be someone in the Metro area isn't there?

[fastblackmerc]

Check local universities, yellow pages & Google.

[FordNut]

Just a thought...
I don't know what kind of fuel was used in the car before the Trilogy went on, but maybe it wasn't so good and carbon deposits are built up on the pistons and combustion chambers?

Just thinking, we ran 87 octane in the wife's car for about 40-50k, then it started to get a little pinging at throttle tip-in, even with 93 octane. Team Ford cleaned it up, I believe they used BG to flush through it. No more pinging, switched to 93 octane ever since, still all is well at about 150k.

[FiveO]

I have a 2.8 pulley that is 93 octane sensitive...but I talked to Lidio a couple of years ago before started this and had no issues so far....

I'm running 91 octane on a 93 tune.

I throw some octane booster in when I can here and there.....every few tank fulls.

Couple notes:

I'm also running upgraded pistons/crank from a 2006 rebuild...not huge but may be different.

I'm also not going balls to the wall racing in the last few years.

Basically..I'm Trilogy #48 with a 2.8 pulley running a 91 octane (tuned by Lidio) and having no issues.

Stock Trilogy running 93 should be problem free. Stock Trilogy running 91 may be an issue.

Start by calling Trilogy. What are their thougts?

If you're only running a 91 "tune" so to speak...who tuned it? just checking.


And I hate to ask..but a "91" tune is only a "91" tune to one person. Let us know who tuned it.

It truly sounds like your tune is off. I've been tuned by Lidio in MI since I've owned ned in 2004 and the only issues I've had have been my problems. I'm not saying you should have a tune done in MI...but everyones tune is different...comes down to who you trust.

[FiveO]

Forgot to add:

Post some more info up..lets get this figured:

Did you install the Trilogy?

Did someone else "Tune" it?

How about the spark plug gap? When I had my engine rebuild in 2006 it ran HORRIBLY for 2 blocks or so til I reminded (thanks to Trilogy and a phone call) to gap the plugs right.

Just checking..every small thing can make a difference.

[mnxtrik8r]

The install has about 300 miles on it. THe car is 100 percent bone stock, 'cept for the Trilogy with the stock pulley ( 32,000 miles). At first I used the Motorcraft 32 platinums gapped down, thought maybe platinum tips were preigniting. Next put in copper 22 gapped down,still no good.The tune is the 91 tune((Trilogy/Lidio), situation was worse with 93. All parameters are spot on concerning the PCM.No lean conditions etc. As of last Thursday, I have more time troubleshooting this than I did with the install and I'm beginning to hate the car.I would be tolerant if it was on the 93 tune, but this is on the 91,and the car is bone stock. I don't drag race the car.The original plan was to build a "spirited street car" but I now have a car with the temperment of race car ( been there,done that). I find it hard to believe it's the tune with over 200 of these out there. But the fuel I am using is better than anywhere else too. I really don't want to have to add race gas everytime I fill the tank (kinda defeats the purpose of a street car). If I do drive it, it is fine as long as I stay out of boost. I'm not sure where to go from here.I did speak with Lidioand Jerry several times and he stated he could pull a degree or two out of it, but why is this necessary on a 91 octane tune. I am not slamming the product in any way at all! Just frustated with my situation, and I am happy for all those who have had great luck. When time permits, I am going to test the fuel. If it comes back good I am tempted to send it down the road complete or remove the blower and offer it up for sale at a reduced price. As I stated before this is a great product and maybe my vehicle is just a little more fussy. Thanks for listening, and all the information input. Enjoy the weekend.

[mnxtrik8r]

I also installed the kit myself and the tune has not been altered in any way,and the instructions were followed to a T.

[TooManyFords]

If I had to guess, it almost sounds like the computer is reset to the factory specs. Try uploading the tune again to verify it applied correctly.

[mnxtrik8r]

I thought about that early on and reloaded the stock tune then added the 91 octane tune with no change in the problem.

[justbob]

You would be alot happier with a dyno tune IMHO. I know, it's another $3-400 bucks, thats why I held off so long myself, but WOW what a difference that made.

[mrogerc]

I have had some issues with minor pinging, typically at 1800-2000 rpm. Of course, it only can happen with the torque converter locked. I got it resolved with a dyno session with Danny at DB performance in Elk River. I could not recommend him highly enough.

I would suggest a session to find out exactly what combination of load, RPM, and air/fuel mixture is associated with the problem.

[sailsmen]

Couple notes:

I'm also running upgraded pistons/crank from a 2006 rebuild...not huge but may be different.


What caused the 2006 rebuild?

[sailsmen]

If you have the stock Tril Tune I doubt it is fuel quality.

2 bottles of Lucas Octane Boost per 12 gallons of 93 raises it to 103.

After Katrina we had fuel quality issues for 9 months and the car started pinging. Used Lucas Top Cyclinder Lub/Injector cleaner and it stopped.

I am willing to bet it is not the fuel, try 2 bottles of Lucas Octans Boost and you will know.

After you find the and fix the problem I would run an oil analysis to determine what if any engine damage you incurred. I have had good success with Blackstone Labs.

[crouse]

Are you sure it's detonation and not something else like a vibration causing something that sounds like detonation?

If you want Jeremy and I to help you with the problem, we'd be more than happy to help. I'm in Rosemount, so if you wanted to come up drive up here or maybe we could drive down to you?

Thanks,
Curt

[mnxtrik8r]

Thanks a bunch for the offer. It is detonation for sure. I may have to get a dyno tune as much as I hate to deviate away from Lidios and Jerrys base line. The idea of a conservative tune really was appealing to me.I can't expect Lidio to randomly tune the thing from his place. There is a place about 1 1/2 hrs from here that tuned a friend of mines Super Snake. He was pretty impressed with what he seen. I have also heard of a guy in Rogers that reportedly is pretty decent. I dont want a car that is wired for kill, I just want a driver.Time to get on the phone and see where I am off to next. Till then the car sits until this problem is resolved. Thanks again for the offer.

[Zack]

Take a picture of how you wired the IAT sensor please.
Snap the pic at the MAF connector.... if you got this step mixed up, the problem could be a result of this.

[mnxtrik8r]

The wires at the MAF were cut about 2 inches back from the plug. The wires cut were the outside grey wires. The wires coming from the harness were crimped and heat shrinked to the IAT harness thus completing the IAT circuit. The remaining tails from the plug were taped off and encased in convoluted tubing.When I watch the IAT on the scan tool the highest seen was about 95 degrees. The charge cooler seems to be functiong properly. Keep in mind its been pretty cool around here as of late. Also the water is circulating fine and is only lukewarm if anything after driving it as aggresively as I can with the detonation. I did speak with a tuner today who ran into the same scenario with an 04 Cobra and he had to pull 6 deg. out of the tune to get rid of that cars detonation. He was running the same fuel as I am. Seems a little weird. He had the customer burn up the fuel and return for a re-tune. The customer did as he was told, fueled up with 91 octane pump fuel (oxygenated and 10% ethanol) not only was able to add the 6 deg subbed earlier, but had a little more added and the car ran beautifully. It seems that the oxygenating agent coupled with the ethanol take care of an issues. Its worth a try at this point. The non oxygenated works great in small engines, carbed applications, but for this application it sounds like the way to go is with normal pump gas. This is something that I have never done with this car,I have always run the non oxygenated fuel in it because I thought that was the best.Time will tell what happens. And as always thanks for the suggestions.

[sailsmen]

In the mean time I would add Lucas Octane Boost to stop the detonation. It is cheap compared to an engine.

The Volvo Club of America tested several Octane Boosters. Lucas was one of 2 that worked. I have used it at the track as a back up to the meth.

[justbob]

Honestly, I thought all gas stations served 10% ethynol anymore? I use BP or Shell 93 and that is all i'll use. This is what I ran with the Stock Trilogy chip, with AND without the IAT2 hooked up (I hooked up the IAT2 a year after I bought the kit and didn't bother with a retune for six months) and also my current tune of 445 RWHP. Never ever once has it detonated. I once had to run Mobil 91 (with fuel booster), but I was highway driving and never even gave it a thought of going into boost untill that tank was replaced with my normal flavor.

[mrogerc]

I have also heard of a guy in Rogers that reportedly is pretty decent.

The guy in Rogers is Danny. http://www.dbptuning.com/

I was mistaken when I said "Elk River."

Good luck!

[mnxtrik8r]

All fuels are supposed to be 10% max although when I worked at the dealership we would see an occasional 16-17%. The fuel I was using was a BP non oxygenated,and no ethanol fuel. We use it in all of our extrication equipment,saws,generators, etc. because it retains its "potency" longer than anything else. We have had no fuel issues since switching to this about 3 years ago. When I was N/A, the fuel worked very well, never had an issue. It appears that with forced induction, that may change. I did speak with Danny yesterday in Rogers, nice guy, very knowedgeable and helpful. Having him tune this is an option if the new fuel fails. As for now it's time to go burn off what I have in the tank now and fill up with pump gas and try this again. More to follow.

[sailsmen]

Were you able to fix the problem and if so what was it?

[mnxtrik8r]

The jury is still out. After talking with Danny, his recommendation was to use the oxygenated fuel containing the 10% ethanol. He had the same situation occur in an 03-04 Cobra. The customer was running the same type of fuel as I was and he had to pull a ton of spark out of it to get it to stop detonating. His customer ran the fuel down and filled up with "pump fuel". He then stated all problems were gone and the deleted timing could be added. I have tried the same and the initial results are promising. I just got back in town last night from Haz-Mat training and have been unable to verify if this problem is cured.More to follow.