New LT/Shorty Debate

[musclemerc]

I know everyone claims the LT's are making more HP over Shorty's. This has been the story here for years. I don't doubt it, they should. Not everyone with LT's are getting these 30hp's. We know the shorty's make about 18~22HP with a dyno tune. This has been well documented over the years. The guy's that have LT's and did the full exhaust (in either 2.5" or 3") and a tune are definately seeing these 30hp but i'm starting to doubt the guy's that went with either the Kook's or SW's kit that have the LT's and cat's and kept the stock H pipe are getting these HP gains. How are the LT's giving you any benefits when your reusing the stock 1-7/8" H pipe? When we install shorty's the entire mid section has to be removed (H pipe included). There is now way around it. I'm willing to bet the HP number's on a shorty install and a LT-w/cat install are'nt that far off. Im attatching a poll to this thread please select your setup and vote. If you have a LT install and reused the stock H pipe please post your dyno number's

[ImpalaSlayer]

Hey Travis, i wouldnt doubt this either, like i told you in my other post i did it cuz its alli could afford at the time.

my setup is kooks to 2 custom mid pipes that meet the stock h pipe flanges with 2 non high flow cats. i made 306/295 with full bolt ons, pretty *****y IMO. how ever i think a few things contributed.

1. being exactly what you just described
2. leaking naz intake
3. a 90mm maf with the 80mm cartridge in it. we did the math to figure it out but i dont think it was quite right.

i never got any of that squared away to go back for a retune. that was all dont in july and i went FI in september.

[kmastl]

Here are my numbers

294 hp and 307 tq

Stainless Works Maucat "includes headers, two high flow cats and lead pipes that connect to the factory H-pipe flange"
Setup with factory H-Pipe and back

K&N cold air
Steeda underdrive pulleys
Jmod
Dyno tune

I know LeoVampire has the same exhaust setup as me, I am unaware if he has had it on the dyno.

I am making no claim to weather or not these LT's make more power than shorties.. I have no idea, but I am more than happy with the way my setup turned out.

[MercOut]

I wish i could help you in this debate but I didn't/don't have the money to get a dyno tune. If this helps any, my butt-o-meter is off the charts when i smash the gas:lol:

[FordNut]

The stock H pipe tubes are 2", the crossover is 1-7/8".

[ImpalaSlayer]

The stock H pipe tubes are 2", the crossover is 1-7/8".
they are 2"? i thought they were 2.25

[FordNut]

oops, you're right.

The 2" section is at the cats.

[kmastl]

For the record when I was under my car I measured the inside diameter of the factory H-pipe where it connects after the cats and it was 1 7/8"

[musclemerc]

Brian you are right. The pipe is 2", the bend's are 1-7/8", the crossover is 1-7/8"

[LeoVampire]

Here are my numbers

294 hp and 307 tq

Stainless Works Maucat "includes headers, two high flow cats and lead pipes that connect to the factory H-pipe flange"
Setup with factory H-Pipe and back

K&N cold air
Steeda underdrive pulleys
Jmod
Dyno tune

I know LeoVampire has the same exhaust setup as me, I am unaware if he has had it on the dyno.

I am making no claim to weather or not these LT's make more power than shorties.. I have no idea, but I am more than happy with the way my setup turned out.

Yep I have the Maucat set up on but I have done so much work on the engine and added so much that the dyno numbers do not count to say how much of a difference they actualy made other than sound and what I FEEL they did to the way the Marauder run's.

To me they were worth it all the way around especialy after all the porting work I did to the head's and intake manifold.

[Spectragod]

Stock H pipe, with long tubes and high flow cats, 472RWHP.

[DOOM]

Dont get Glen started! :shake:

[babbage]

cougar1950 has great n/a numbers, and has long tubes with larger midpipes.


With regard to factory mid pipes - they are 1 7/8 inches at the bends so that's the smallest area. I think factory mufflers are even smaller than that inside.

[DOOM]

LOL at merc! :rofl:

[LANDY]

LOL at merc! :rofl:
Tell me about it. BTW where is Glenn?

[musclemerc]

Please stay on track guy's. I'm trying to gather some truthful information here. Again anyone who has installed the Mucat system or the other one that's comparable and still used the stock H pipe please post up your before and after dyno number's.

[LANDY]

Ohh, I forgot. My n/a car (r.i.p.) with stock manifolds, no cats, x pipe, 2 1/2" exhaust till the magnaflows then stock after that, dynoed at 274 rwhp. I installed the kooks with their x pipe, still no cats and 2 1//2" pipe all The way back back and it dynoed at 293 rwhp. It also went from one lucky pass of 14.1 to consistent 13.8 @ 100 mph. Both runs were within 50 degrees weather.

[Phrog_gunner]

where is Glenn?

You guys are good for a while, I heard knee high socks were on sale at wally world so he wont be back till later.

[justbob]

I'm still stock because I would have to detune the car if I added anything else. I don't want anything more than 450 at the wheels. Anything added would be fornoise preferanceover power for me and right right now is not what i'd call a good time to spend money on noise and a detune.

[Paul T. Casey]

I didn't vote because your poll doesn't really cover what most of us did. The Kooks "kit" came with the long tubes, high flow cats, X pipe, and Magnaflows. We ended up using our stock tail pipes. As far as dyno numbers, mine was 299.7 hp and 315 Tq. This included a myriad of other mods, don't have one for just the exhaust mods. I can tell you though, the headers, etc. were worth about .5 (consistant) at the track. Also, you don't get the "cool factor" from shorties (my opinion). Glenn made good numbers with his shorties, and makes some good points about them, not the least of which is the cost factor.

[musclemerc]

Hmmm. Your number's are the same as Landy's and you guy's basically did the same setup.
He got 19hp from a full exhaust with LT's..
I will ask the Mods to remove the stock listing and add LT's with mid pipe swap.
Thank's for the info Paul.

[Paul T. Casey]

Hmmm. Your number's are the same as Landy's and you guy's basically did the same setup.
He got 19hp from a full exhaust with LT's..
I will ask the Mods to remove the stock listing and add LT's with mid pipe swap.
Thank's for the info Paul.

What is his total "mod package"? The exhaust is only a part of what is needed to get to the magic 300 hp number. I probably could have been there, but it was rather hot and humid on the tuning day. Leo Vampire did more porting work than I did, he's probably close. The engine is just a giant air pump. The more air you can flow, the more horsepower you can create. I'm sure you'll never "out flow" the stock injectors in N/A applications, but if you did, just bump up the fuel pump and injector size.

[musclemerc]

I will PM him and hopefully get a mod's list from him. Leo may have done more porting than you but he still has the stock H pipe in line so I doubt he's up to the HP number's your posting. I think the porting got you where you are with number's. Landy put down 293hp you got 299hp

Thanks again for the info Paul.

[RR|Suki]

are you saying it's well documented that cars go from stock exhaust + a tune and gain 20 hp after that with shorties? Or they go from stock exhaust no tune and then gain 20 when the put on the shorties and get a tune?

[musclemerc]

I think I have enough information to say this. First any header combination is far better than stock and will yeild some HP gain's. Next the myth that LT's will give 30hp is just that a myth. I don't know how it got started but it has been the census here for a long time, everytime a noob ask's about LT gains the 30hp myth is floated around. The response's in this thread prove that to be false. I'm not trying to dump on the LT guy's but over the years we (the shorty guy's) have always had to prove our gains and it was assumed you guy's made the magic number (30hp) It looks like a N/A MM will be lucky to hit the 300rwhp mark LT or Shorty, and only a few have crossed the line (the one's that did either had a custom intake or port and polish work). I like to stick to the facts and here are a few gathered from the participants in this thread.


Impalaslayer: So far the fastest N/A hp posted within this thread 306 hp/295rwtq
He has LT's, custom mid pipes and a stock H pipe (basically a Mucat system) I think the Naz intake got him over the 300hp line

Blackbeauty2: Actually did before and after LT dyno's he made 293hp and has LT's, no cat's, 2.5" midpipes, muffler's and 2.5" axle back's.
His before dyno tune yeilded 274hp Total: 19rwhp gain from the LT system

Paul T Casey: Did a dyno tune after the LT install and he ran 299.7 rwhp and 315 rwtq. He has LT's, custom 2.5" mid section, muffler's and stock 2.25" axle back's. He has some polish and port work done

Kmastl: Dyno tune results are 294rwhp and 307rwtq. He has LT's, a custom mid section, the stock H pipe, and stock axleback's

TAF: Did before and after dyno tune's and got 290rwhp and 316rwtq and has Cobra Manifold's (not really a Shorty but close enough) with a custom 2.5" mid section, muffler's and 2.5" axle backs
Here is his link:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5946&highlight=atlanta

Now this is where the rubber hits the road. I used Blackbeauty's MM because he's the only on that actually did a before and after LT dyno. He got an extra 19rwhp and had a full exhaust to the tip's.
These guy's all had dyno's and the result's are proven. As you can see the shorty install made 3hp less than Blackbeauty2/and 4hp less than Kmastl but made more torque than all the LT installs listed. :burnout:

BTW the Shorty crowd has grown recently, adding JBA's to the list of Shorty option's. Myself, Brian H, dohc324ci, GOT1, and RacerX have recently added Shorty's and have yet to post dyno number's. Stay tuned!

[musclemerc]

I had the info added to the poll Paul. Please vote!
BTW Merc voted on the wrong line he has Shorty's :D


I didn't vote because your poll doesn't really cover what most of us did.

[RacerX]

It's also very interesting going through the "Official 4V Naturally Aspirated HP/TQ List" on corral.net. I've been reading everyone's mods and taking notes on what is working the best for our engines in the N/A class. Being exactly that, a big air pump, the best/cheap gains seem to be headers all the way to exhaust. Now, a Lightning MAF, single blade TB, 39# Inj., PSRI, fully ported heads/ valve job, cams (Cobra R, FR500, custom, etc.) and the exhaust all together is the right way to go, yet, you may as well buy 3 s/c's by the time you're all done with that!

[CWright]

Here are mine. Kooks LT with custom X Pipe. From the from the magnaflows back is all stock.



http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1255820517-kooksfront.jpg's
http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1255820556-cwkooksxpipe.jpg
http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1255820702-cwkooksflange.jpg
Here is why I also put on new headers.
http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1251653164-cwds1.jpg

Before headers is blue runfile. After is Red Runfile.
http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1255821448-beforeandafterCW.jpg

[musclemerc]

^^^Did you vote? Do you have any dyno number's for your setup?
Thank You for posting CW

[CWright]

^^^Did you vote? Do you have any dyno number's for your setup?
Thank You for posting CW

^^I just edited.

[CWright]

^^^Did you vote? Do you have any dyno number's for your setup?
Thank You for posting CW

Hope it helps!

[FordNut]

I think I have enough information to say this. First any header combination is far better than stock and will yeild some HP gain's. Next the myth that LT's will give 30hp is just that a myth. I don't know how it got started but it has been the census here for a long time, everytime a noob ask's about LT gains the 30hp myth is floated around. The response's in this thread prove that to be false. I'm not trying to dump on the LT guy's but over the years we (the shorty guy's) have always had to prove our gains and it was assumed you guy's made the magic number (30hp) It looks like a N/A MM will be lucky to hit the 300rwhp mark LT or Shorty, and only a few have crossed the line (the one's that did either had a custom intake or port and polish work). I like to stick to the facts and here are a few gathered from the participants in this thread.


Impalaslayer: So far the fastest N/A hp posted within this thread 306 hp/295rwtq
He has LT's, custom mid pipes and a stock H pipe (basically a Mucat system) I think the Naz intake got him over the 300hp line

Blackbeauty2: Actually did before and after LT dyno's he made 293hp and has LT's, no cat's, 2.5" midpipes, muffler's and 2.5" axle back's.
His before dyno tune yeilded 274hp Total: 19rwhp gain from the LT system

Paul T Casey: Did a dyno tune after the LT install and he ran 299.7 rwhp and 315 rwtq. He has LT's, custom 2.5" mid section, muffler's and stock 2.25" axle back's. He has some polish and port work done

Kmastl: Dyno tune results are 294rwhp and 307rwtq. He has LT's, a custom mid section, the stock H pipe, and stock axleback's

TAF: Did before and after dyno tune's and got 290rwhp and 316rwtq and has Cobra Manifold's (not really a Shorty but close enough) with a custom 2.5" mid section, muffler's and 2.5" axle backs
Here is his link:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5946&highlight=atlanta

Now this is where the rubber hits the road. I used Blackbeauty's MM because he's the only on that actually did a before and after LT dyno. He got an extra 19rwhp and had a full exhaust to the tip's.
These guy's all had dyno's and the result's are proven. As you can see the shorty install made 3hp less than Blackbeauty2/and 4hp less than Kmastl but made more torque than all the LT installs listed. :burnout:

BTW the Shorty crowd has grown recently, adding JBA's to the list of Shorty option's. Myself, Brian H, dohc324ci, GOT1, and RacerX have recently added Shorty's and have yet to post dyno number's. Stay tuned!

Actually when I was NA I added Kooks and did a before/after dyno test. It's on here somewhere, posted in about 2003 or 2004. And I did make about 303 hp 318 tq, about the same tq as the best of the NA shorties.

I don't think Paul has had any porting or internal work.

[ImpalaSlayer]

some times i wana go back to n/a just to try again.

[FordNut]

some times i wana go back to n/a just to try again.

Me too. Those were the good old days.

[musclemerc]

You have the best N/A numbers posted so far in this thread Dave.
I honestly think BCastro with his stroked/built high compression motor will be the best N/A to date. RacerX will be next with all the port and polish work he's recently done, but I think he went with a Cobra shortblock with the low compression for the spray.


some times i wana go back to n/a just to try again.

[ImpalaSlayer]

You have the best N/A numbers posted so far in this thread Dave.
I honestly think BCastro with his stroked/built high compression motor will be the best N/A to date. RacerX will be next with all the port and polish work he's recently done, but I think he went with a Cobra shortblock with the low compression for the spray.

i just know if i squared it all away with more tuning it would have made more. i never even dipped into the 13s with that combo, then again it was the height of summer. who knows.

[FordNut]

You have the best N/A numbers posted so far in this thread Dave.
I honestly think BCastro with his stroked/built high compression motor will be the best N/A to date. RacerX will be next with all the port and polish work he's recently done, but I think he went with a Cobra shortblock with the low compression for the spray.

Anxious to see what Brian's car does. I made 360 rwhp with my bb/s when it was N/A.

[dohc324ci]

^^Me too B. I went to pickup my old valve covers today so I can meet up with jdennings002 (john) next week. The car is just sitting there with my heads, trans (4r75w) and FRPP shorty headers, mid pipe, Corsa's ready to be installed. MMR most likely will be another 2-3 weeks (guestimate) then a week to ship and another couple weeks to put together with a base tune. Its going to be a while....

[ImpalaSlayer]

^^Me too B. I went to pickup my old valve covers today so I can meet up with jdennings002 (john) next week. The car is just sitting there with my heads, trans (4r75w) and FRPP shorty headers, mid pipe, Corsa's ready to be installed. MMR most likely will be another 2-3 weeks (guestimate) then a week to ship and another couple weeks to put together with a base tune. Its going to be a while....

i duno how you havent lost it already. id be furious

[1stMerc]

I was just thinking the same thing.

[dohc324ci]

Dont think for a minute I aint. I just dont need to vent out in cyberspace the disturbing things that have crossed my mind. I am livid yup.

[cougar9150]

My final dyno results were 304.41 rwhp and 317.11 rwtq. http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62903
You can see my mod list in my signature, no port work, K&N w/stock intake, plenty of drive train mods.

This was just a dyno tune and shift schedule work. I have no before numbers; I had him pull the knock sensor from the tune at first because a bad EGR.

I had it put back in after I replaced my EGR and went back for more shift schedule work. There there is still more power available if I wanted him to bump it up more but I have other issues that need to be address. I'll probably go back after the new coils are in, upcoming exhaust changes are done, and I fix the few other odds and ends just to see what I can get.

You can see my mod list in my signature, no port work, K&N w/stock intake, plenty of drive train mods. Might get underdrive pulleys (my Steeda crankshaft dampener took a ****) and a couple other N/A bolt on parts until I can afford to get boost just to push it.

[musclemerc]

I know about the knock sensor issue you had. Did you go back for a new dyno with the knock sensor turned on? The number's posted here are exactly the same as your first dyno. If not I think you should post the original 296hp and 305tq dyno with the knock sensor installed in the tune. Everyone on this thread is running an active knock sensor. I don't want any unfair advantage's given

[LANDY]

Phil, what are you doing to the exhaust system?

[Glenn]

Shorties vs. the Long Tubers! Very few people have posted about their results on the track with LTs. Paul cut 0.5 sec off his et and Brian did good too. They are both true racers. Most of the other posters are LT "lookers" - who in all honestly got LTs for the "looks" - but quite honestly you do not see much of LTs or Shorties under the hood. But, the real reason is that it is just "More Cool" to have LTs in some people's minds. But, the cost vs performance with LTs is just not there. Also, very few MMs with LTs really don't even drag race or even street race - so why? Why spend the money - "braggin rights"?

I'll take a lower et on the track versus "More Cool" on the street any day (and save a bundle) and that's where it all really is.

Glenn Ford

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/gatlin.gif

[LANDY]

there it went, the missing link to this thread.
BTW LT's for the win.

[Glenn]

By the way, there is not one MM in this thread who is running anywhere near 11.80 except Brian, but his engine is in a whole separate world of hi-performance. So what does that say about Shorties vs. LTubers. A whole bunch in my book.

Glenn Ford :banana2:

PS: and running a stock bottom end.

[LANDY]

is ok Glenn we will have some fun at sshs10 this fall. then LT's vs shorty's its on for sure.:flamer:

[Joe Walsh]

I've got to check my old timeslips, but I remember going from the high 14s and getting into the low 14s once I installed the following:

Kooks LT headers
2.5" High-flow cats and 2.5" X-Pipe
2.5" Magnaflow mufflers
retained OEM 2.25" over the axle pipes and OEM MEG's tips.

I never had it dynoed with that combo, but I did run some 1/4 mile times.

Once I dropped in the built 5.0 engine I had 325 RWHP/340 RWTQ.

[FordNut]

They're both great. One thing to keep in mind...

There have been several members who upgraded to shorties then upgraded again to long tubes. I know of nobody who upgraded to long tubes then "upgraded" again to shorties.

[dohc324ci]

Costs and emissions not an issue I would have done SW LT.

[RR|Suki]

Shorties vs. the Long Tubers! Very few people have posted about their results on the track with LTs. Paul cut 0.5 sec off his et and Brian did good too. They are both true racers. Most of the other posters are LT "lookers" - who in all honestly got LTs for the "looks" - but quite honestly you do not see much of LTs or Shorties under the hood. But, the real reason is that it is just "More Cool" to have LTs in some people's minds. But, the cost vs performance with LTs is just not there. Also, very few MMs with LTs really don't even drag race or even street race - so why? Why spend the money - "braggin rights"?

I'll take a lower et on the track versus "More Cool" on the street any day (and save a bundle) and that's where it all really is.

Glenn Ford

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/gatlin.gif


Maybe that's because a lot of the fast marauders have long since left this board. Either way, I dropped 1 sec ET and gained 8 MPH so far just changing to LTs.

[musclemerc]

Glenn! I knew I would hear from you.

OK guy's let's stay on track! I want to stick to the facts thats all. I noticed we've had a few guy's try to sway this debate but again this time i'm sticking to the dyno results. Some that posted their HP number's either did'nt read the topic in this thread or decided to slip in a dyno number with other mods other than just a LT installation. Spectragod posted "total" rwhp with a SC, that's not what this thread is about. Cougar9150 posted dyno results with a knock sensor turned off, Cwright posted a 76rwhp LT gain :eek: and after investigation he added a smaller SC pully and possibly some other goodies. I'm not calling you guy's out but again I'm trying to stick to the facts. I've been busy in the archive's digging through alot of old posts and came across some good information

Here is a post from DR on Go2GuyFL's recent LT install:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61423&highlight=nice+pair

This was for 2 MM's the first MM total rwhp with LT's 283.7 and 298.3rwtq
On MM #2 his total number's with LT's 277.8rwhp and 288.5rwtq

Next is Magindat:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48616

His dyno sheet is post#14 Before the LT's he had 282.7rwhp and 293rwtq
after the LT install he got 297.9rwhp and 304.7rwtq
Total gains: 15.2rwhp and 11.7rwtq

I have yet to see a N/A MM with a LT install yeild the mythical 30rwhp. If your out there and have dyno proof of doing it please post your number's, and remember it must be on a LT mod only not other goodies.

[RR|Suki]

If you want someone really making power N/A find Big House's dyno. He made 320 or something like that

[FordNut]

Glenn! I knew I would hear from you.

OK guy's let's stay on track! I want to stick to the facts thats all. I noticed we've had a few guy's try to sway this debate but again this time i'm sticking to the dyno results. Some that posted their HP number's either did'nt read the topic in this thread or decided to slip in a dyno number with other mods other than just a LT installation. Spectragod posted "total" rwhp with a SC, that's not what this thread is about. Cougar9150 posted dyno results with a knock sensor turned off, Cwright posted a 76rwhp LT gain :eek: and after investigation he added a smaller SC pully and possibly some other goodies. I'm not calling you guy's out but again I'm trying to stick to the facts. I've been busy in the archive's digging through alot of old posts and came across some good information

Here is a post from DR on Go2GuyFL's recent LT install:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61423&highlight=nice+pair

This was for 2 MM's the first MM total rwhp with LT's 283.7 and 298.3rwtq
On MM #2 his total number's with LT's 277.8rwhp and 288.5rwtq

Next is Magindat:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=48616

His dyno sheet is post#14 Before the LT's he had 282.7rwhp and 293rwtq
after the LT install he got 297.9rwhp and 304.7rwtq
Total gains: 15.2rwhp and 11.7rwtq

I have yet to see a N/A MM with a LT install yeild the mythical 30rwhp. If your out there and have dyno proof of doing it please post your number's, and remember it must be on a LT mod only not other goodies.

Virtually all of the cars you have listed hp numbers on were modified with numerous bolt-ons before the headers were installed. There's no way a "headers only" mod is going to get 290-300 rwhp.

[musclemerc]

Here you go, but everyone here even disputed his dyno results:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32800
Like I said I've spent alot of time in the archive's

[musclemerc]

Virtually all of the cars you have listed hp numbers on were modified with numerous bolt-ons before the headers were installed. There's no way a "headers only" mod is going to get 290-300 rwhp.

I never said a LT only install would give you 300rwhp. Again i'm collecting truthful information to show LT number's. Magindat did a before and after dyno and got 15rwhp and 11rwtq. I'm debugging the myth that LT's are good for 30rwhp on a N/A MM. That's the number floated around when a noob ask's "what are the gains with LT's" and with the data collected in this post it's clearly not the case. LT's are showing to be good for 14~19rwhp on a N/A MM. Also the dyno numbers are not that far off, only a few hp between Shorty's and LT's. As far as rwtq you are the only one that had more torque than the shorty's.

[FordNut]

Mine picked up 22 rwhp

[FordNut]

I never said a LT only install would give you 300rwhp. Again i'm collecting truthful information to show LT number's. Magindat did a before and after dyno and got 15rwhp and 11rwtq. I'm debugging the myth that LT's are good for 30rwhp on a N/A MM. That's the number floated around when a noob ask's "what are the gains with LT's" and with the data collected in this post it's clearly , not the case. LT's are only good for 14~19rwhp on a N/A MM. So far the dyno numbers are not that far off, only a few hp between Shorty's and LT's. As far as rwtq you are the only one that had more torque than the shorty's.

Your post points out cars with 297 rwhp and in the same post you say HEADERS ONLY. It appears that was what you said.

[musclemerc]

That's because I'm still asking anyone that has a before and after dyno with LT's only to post up their results. The number's I posted some are from guy's that did after dyno's only , some are before and after and I point that out int the thread. As this thing move's along I will PM all the member's for a total mod's list and compile all the information. This is just the beginning. Those are just for comparison and also to show even with LT's 300rwhp on a N/A MM is hard but still very reachable within a few HP's with either LT or Shorty's.

[babbage]

I'm debugging the myth that LT's are good for 30rwhp on a N/A MM.

There is no such myth. Clearly the gain is from people who are BLOWN - trilogy and vortec -- then they add LT's and will typically gain 30 HP. I have seen this many times.

The people who are telling others "you gain 30 by adding LT's" forgot the base MM had a Trilogy or other SC to start with.


Cougar1950s car is NA with kooks LT's and dynoed well over 300 rwhp.

[Paul T. Casey]

Added my vote now. As for Glenn, I see and fully understand his points. But Glenn, you've got to realize that some folks don't mind spending the big bucks for the "cool factor."

[musclemerc]

Cougar9150 is'nt the one you should be quoting Babb's. He ran that number with the knock sensor turned off. He only got 296 with it turned on. Now Impalaslayer and Brian on the other hand got past the 300hp mark and did it the right way with bolt on's and a little enginunity and they both had the knock sensor's connected.

I'm not interested in fuzzy math just the fact's Babb's. ;)
BTW for every SC/ed car that showed a 30hp gain I can show you another that did the same rwhp with shorty's



There is no such myth. Clearly the gain is from people who are BLOWN - trilogy and vortec -- then they add LT's and will typically gain 30 HP. I have seen this many times.

The people who are telling others "you gain 30 by adding LT's" forgot the base MM had a Trilogy or other SC to start with.


Cougar1950s car is NA with kooks LT's and dynoed well over 300 rwhp.

[FordNut]

Dig around in old threads, you might find TAF's numbers. He had shorty headers and was in the low to mid 290's. He switched to long tubes and got right about to the 300 mark.

[musclemerc]

I already posted TAF's shorty number's and included his link with before and after. He spent alot of money and time dynoing most of the bolt on's commonly used on the MM. You do realize your saying is only a couple HP between the two?

"He ran low to mid 290's then got right about 300"

[merc]

I still hold the title for the fastest Marauder with shorty headers. :banana2: That may change in the next year.

[FordNut]

I already posted TAF's shorty number's and included his link with before and after. He spent alot of money and time dynoing most of the bolt on's commonly used on the MM.

I know. We had a game of cat-and-mouse going back in the day. Most of the bolt-ons were dyno tested before/after by both Todd and me. And at that time we were using the same tuner too.

[FordNut]

I already posted TAF's shorty number's and included his link with before and after. He spent alot of money and time dynoing most of the bolt on's commonly used on the MM. You do realize your saying is only a couple HP between the two?

"He ran low to mid 290's then got right about 300"

I believe he got about 8 hp in the swap.

[musclemerc]

I still hold the title for the fastest Marauder with shorty headers. :banana2: That may change in the next year.

OK Merc. I've gotten what I needed from this thread you can go ahead and have a lil fun. Glenn already did! :banana2:

[FordNut]

I still hold the title for the fastest Marauder with shorty headers. :banana2: That may change in the next year.

How quick is the fastest NA Marauder with shorty headers? Mine and Barry's had Kooks, ran low 13's NA.

[musclemerc]

^^That has yet to be seen. In the near future we should know the answer to that question. My money is on Bcastro, basically the same setup you had engine wise but with Shorty's.

[FordNut]

Doesn't count. Stock engine, any external bolt-ons permitted. Same rules as the race for the 12's. As far as I know, all the cars that have been quicker than 13.5 have had long tubes.

[cougar9150]

Cougar9150 is'nt the one you should be quoting Babb's. He ran that number with the knock sensor turned off. He only got 296 with it turned on.

No I replaced the EGR and put the knock sensor back in the tune. With the knock back in I'm still running the exact same tune with it set to pull 3 degrees of timing now at the range I had it set to zero before. I datalog regularly; haven't had it pull any timing and I'm running with 1 or 2 weak coils at the moment.

[FordNut]

How quick is the fastest NA Marauder with shorty headers? Mine and Barry's had Kooks, ran low 13's NA.


^^That has yet to be seen. In the near future we should know the answer to that question. My money is on Bcastro, basically the same setup you had engine wise but with Shorty's.

BTW, when I had the NA 5.3 BB/S I ran 12.7

[musclemerc]

Until you get a new dyno that number is indeed inflated. You ran 296 with the knock sensor turned on. Fuzzy math does'nt apply.
Beside's your tune may not have changed but i'm willing to bet your dyno result's will.


No I replaced the EGR and put the knock sensor back in the tune. With the knock back in I'm still running the exact same tune with it set to pull 3 degrees of timing now at the range I had it set to zero before. I datalog regularly; haven't had it pull any timing and I'm running with 1 or 2 weak coils at the moment.

[99SVT]

There is no such myth. Clearly the gain is from people who are BLOWN - trilogy and vortec -- then they add LT's and will typically gain 30 HP. I have seen this many times.

The people who are telling others "you gain 30 by adding LT's" forgot the base MM had a Trilogy or other SC to start with.


I would agree with this, I picked up .8 sec and 6 mph once I added Kooks LT's, catted midpipe and Magnaflows. LT's make a huge difference on boosted cars.

[cougar9150]

Until you get a new dyno that number is indeed inflated. You ran 296 with the knock sensor turned on. Fuzzy math does'nt apply.
Beside's your tune may not have changed but i'm willing to bet your dyno result's will.

Well send me a check and I'll go back and waste your money on a pointless redundant exercise.

How it would change (i.e. go down) by fixing the issue and adding the sensor back in if it's pulling no timing in the part of tune it was previously set to zero? It was on in the tune just set to 0 in the one section and set normally throughout the rest of the tune. Datalogging has shown I not pulling timing now with the issue I had fixed. If anything I'm running better than when I got it tuned since I have a properly working EGR now.

I think your the one with fuzzy math and logic. I'll take the word of my professional tuner who said once fixed it would make what I had made and that there was room for a more if I wanted to turn the rollers again.

[RacerX]

You have the best N/A numbers posted so far in this thread Dave.
I honestly think BCastro with his stroked/built high compression motor will be the best N/A to date. RacerX will be next with all the port and polish work he's recently done, but I think he went with a Cobra shortblock with the low compression for the spray.

:D CR is 10.5:1, 04 Cobra forged sb, the DR X-pipe/cobra manifolds (until I get shorties), new mufflers (probably Magnaflows), wickedly ported 04 Mach 9 thread heads, fixed NAZ PSRI, ported upper plenum to match BBK twin 65mm, GT40 FP, Lightning MAF and 39#'s (if I even need them), 31 spline trac lok (when Drewstrang sends it!) and to top it all off, a 150 shot of giggle juice

[musclemerc]

WOW RacerX. Using Brian's rules (bolt on's only and a stock bottom end) you will have the highest HP N/A MM running Shorty's. I had no idea you were going high compression. We will paitently wait to see those new number's. ;)

I would like to thank all the guy's that provided dyno information that made this thread possible. In the years i've been a member here this thread in my opinion is the best header debate yet. Thank's for keeping it civil. I would also like to inform the guy's that posted their number's I am also getting ready to compile a list of all the mod's done on their car's so other member's will know what to expect HP and TQ wise for the various bolt on's and exhaust option's for the MM. If it's OK I will PM each of you asking for a mod's list.

I'm gonna ask the Mod's to lock this thread so it does'nt get derailed :burnout:

[FordNut]

:D CR is 10.5:1, 04 Cobra forged sb, the DR X-pipe/cobra manifolds (until I get shorties), new mufflers (probably Magnaflows), wickedly ported 04 Mach 9 thread heads, fixed NAZ PSRI, ported upper plenum to match BBK twin 65mm, GT40 FP, Lightning MAF and 39#'s (if I even need them), 31 spline trac lok (when Drewstrang sends it!) and to top it all off, a 150 shot of giggle juice


WOW RacerX. Using Brian's rules (bolt on's only and a stock bottom end) you will have the highest HP N/A MM running Shorty's. I had no idea you were going high compression. We will paitently wait to see those new number's. ;)
:

If you look at the NA race to the 12's thread you'll see that no head porting is allowed. But it should be the highest HP NA MM with stock displacement.