Kook's Headers/exhaust results:

[BillyGman]

now that I've installed the Kook's long tube headers,Hi-flow cats, X-pipe, and 18" magnaflow mufflers, here are my impressions.....

THE HEADERS:
They're good headers as far as their design and craftmanship. I wouldn't say they're the best around, but they're good. As w/most headers they don't have ground flanges like some headers do, however the flanges on the front as well as the collector flanges are nice and thick which is very good for gasket sealing, and that's a big issue w/headers. They're also true longtube headers which will make more power than shorty headers will.

THE INSTALLATION:
There wasn't any need for welding, and Kook's supplied some excellent pre-formed band clamps which work very good. The rest of the exhaust wasn't too bad to install, but the headers were a BIGTIME project to install as w/most longtube headers. My installation process took longer than most guys probably will since I tend to work at a very methodical pace and I also pay close attention to detail. For instance, I wrapped the starter and solenoid up in heat reflective material that was cut to size. Now most guys don't do that .I did it since starter solenoid can get heat soak from being next to the header pipe, and become sluggish which creates problems w/some cars as far as starting in hot weather. Maybe ceramic coating the headers make them run cool enough to make it unneccessary to wrap up the starter and solenoid, but I did it anway. I also installed the "Stage 8" locking header bolts. That took a long time to install the locking clips onto the bolts. But because header bolts have a tendency to loosen up from the vibration, the Stage 8 header bolts are a good idea. However, if you have big hands, then I doubt very much if you'll be able to get the locking clips onto all of the 16 header bolts. There are atleast 3 or 4 of the bolts that are extremely diffucult to reach even for guys like me w/small hands.

THE RESULTS:

I was very concerned about the Kook's headers being too free flowing, and thereby causing the car to give up off the line acceleration for top end power. But just like Nick at Kook's and LOGAN both told me, these headers and exhaust actually gave my car more off-the-line acceleration as well as more top-end power too. According to my G-tech device, before the Headers went on the car did 0-60MPH in 5.3 seconds w/the rest of the MODS I've previously done. I also got a 13.9 sec ET. But after I installed the Kook's header/exhaust on my Marauder, I got a 13.5 sec ET, and a 0-60MPH in 4.9 seconds. So even if the G-tech device isn't accurate, as long as it's repeatable, then it's a good tool for measuring acceleration changes after performing any performance mod. However, let me also state that as soon as I drove the car after I finished this exhaust work, I knew that it accelerated better before I even used the G-tech device. So I'm very pleased w/the results. I recommend this exhaust to anyone who is serious about performance. If anyone is going to perform the installation of the Kook's headers themselves, then feel free to write a PM to me, and I'll be happy to write back to you w/some installation tips. Trust me. You're going to need them. This entire job took me three long days, and 2 of those days were spent on the header installation alone. And I was using a lift. Perhaps some of you will get the job done a bit quicker than I did, but I gaurantee you that it won't be a picknic. Especially if you use the "Stage 8" locking header bolts like I have. However I also recommend those locking bolts. But as much trouble as this header installation was, it all was worth it to me since the car clearly moves better now than it did before.

[martyo]

Nice job Billy!

[johnjamis]

Thanks for the report, Billy, I guess it is time for some long tubes. I like the Gtech comparison. I think it is definitely valid when used on one specific car before and after with the same atmospheric conditions. Impressive results!! Do you know if anyone has a muffler back system? Or is it really needed with this setup. What is the before and after noise difference and do you still have the resonators? Thanks, John

[Logan]

Excellent... Glad to hear another happy camper report in! :)

[BillyGman]

I went w/the mufflers that Nick at Kook's recommends w/this set up. Which are the 18" magnaflow mufflers. However, you can use what ever mufflers you choose as long as they're less restrictive than the stock muffs are. The magnaflows that are recommended by Kook's are a straight through design w/no baffles so they're on the loud side, and are similar to glass pack mufflers. However, the 18" ones don't produce any loud crackling, fluttering, or popping right after letting off the gas after a full throttle blast. So even though they're loud, they don't sound ratty. But if you want something a bit quieter, however still less restrictive than the stock mufflers, you can go w/a free flow muffler that still has baffles such as the Flowmaster mufflers or something similar. As far as the tailpipe, I simply did what LOGAN did, and stayed w/the stock tips and tailpipes which are just fine. Remember that by the time the exhaust gases have reached the tailpipes, they've already cooled down quite a bit and are less expanded than when they're first exiting the cylinder heads.

[Logan]

After about 500 miles, the Magnaflows break in, and start sounding quite a bit milder than they are when they first go on... :)

[BillyGman]

you saying something about that. So I'll have to wait and see. But they aren't too bad even now. I like the sound they make when I wind it up. I think it sounds the best at half throttle and full throttle from 3000-5000 RPM.

[johnjamis]

For Logan or Billy, I am looking for the same or very slightly louder than stock and the same or a deeper sound quality. Much louder and my wife will scream. Will the 18" Magnaflows be satisfactory or should I look at something else. Thanks guys. John

[Logan]

John, you can get deeper, near stock exhaust tones by doing the 22" magnaflows.

[johnjamis]

Thanks for the help Logan. I think I will go with the 22" Magnaflows.

[FordNut]

I really like my Edelbrocks. I would like to hear some results on them with the muffler change only, as I changed to an x-pipe at the same time. I believe they're 19" and they're stainless steel with ceramic packing.

[Ross]

DROOL! Me want!

[WolfeBros]

Nice report Billy. I need to put headers on my Xmas list. :up:

[merc406]

Quick tip on header gaskets, separate the gasket (cut) into 4 port pieces. If leak or blowout occurs sometime down the road, you won't have to undo all the header bolts to replace offending cyl. leak.

[Ross]

Billy, I may have asked this before. If so, sorry. Did you use the existing factory gaskets like Logan suggested, or did Kook's supply new gaskets, and if they did, did you use them?

[BillyGman]

that I might not have made clear in my first post of this thread. I stated that Kook's makes good headers, but not the best ones around IMO. But I don't want anyone here to get the impression that I meant that there is some other company that makes better headers for our Marauders than Kook's does, because that isn't true at all. The fact is that the only other Long tube headers that are made for our cars are sold by Sean Hyland, and those headers were also made by Kook's. So I commend Kook's for being the only one to step up to the plate by meeting our needs for the headers. Like I've already stated, I'm satisfied w/these headers, and they do exactly what Nick and Logan said they do. MAKE MORE POWER at low RPM's as well as midrange, and high RPM's. What I did mean by my statement in that first post is that IMO there are companies that make better headers for other cars than these that I've purchased from Kook's. But neither one of the two companies that come to mind for headers make a set for the Marauder. So as of now Kook's header are your best choice. Which is exactly why I've chosen them.
As far as what gaskets I've used for the headers, I used the ones that Kook's provided which comes w/their kit because the Ford shop manual said that the stock steel geslets of the manifolds should be replaced when the manifolds are removed.

[DEW34]

ithink iwould try to use copper header gaskets i have
a set that is 3years old and have seen heavy racing and have been off and on so many times < pulling heads> i lost count if your looking for some theirs acompany that sells through sumit
called Sce that makes a ton of copper stuff .
mike

[BillyGman]

I agree totally w/you on that. And that was my plan since copper is softer and more pliable than steel or even aluminum. But I called Summit Racing about the copper gaskets, and they don't list any for the 4.6L 4V motor. Not only are there very few places that make header gaskets for these engines, but there is only one comapny who even makes Long tube headers for these engines(Kook's).

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by johnjamis
For Logan or Billy, I am looking for the same or very slightly louder than stock and the same or a deeper sound quality. Much louder and my wife will scream. Will the 18" Magnaflows be satisfactory or should I look at something else. Thanks guys. John

...this is my opinion on this: many guys look for that "deeper" exhaust note. But most of them unknowingly are really looking for that old big block engine sound. And trust me, no matter what you do to a Marauder, it aint ever gonna sound like a big block, or even like any big cubic inch small block. I'm not saying that every muffler you use on the 4.6L motor will sound the same, but for the most part, the Marauder will always have a slightly higher pitched exhaust note than even a 350 cubic inch motor will have. Keep in mind that we're dealing w/a very SMALL V8 engine here. The 4.6L engine is a mere 281 cubes! Yes it still sounds like a V8 but nothing like a 350 or 360 cube motor will sound w/the same free flowing exhaust attached. And that's just a cold hard fact. There are larger sized combustion events taking place during each power stroke of every cylinder of a 350 cube engine than there are in a 281 cube engine. There's more gasoline being ignited during each power stroke of the bigger engine. Excuse the analogy from a gun owner like myself, but trying to get a car w/a 281 cube displacement engine to sound like a car w/a bigger displacemnt engine such as a 350 or 360 cube motor, is like trying to get a 7mm or .308 caliber rifle to sound like a 50BMG caliber rifle when the trigger is pulled. It just aint gonna happen. And given the same exhaust, the car w/the bigger engine displacement is going to have a "deeper" and more potent sounding exhausr note.;)

[johnjamis]

That small block pitch thing sounds logical, Billy. I guess I'll have to settle for near stock sound level to keep the wife happy. Do you think the 22' Magnaflows will do it or should I look at another brand? John

[BillyGman]

the 22" magnaflows because Logan mentioned that to me also. Nick at Kook's strongly suggested that I go w/the 18" ones.

What I mean is, that I think the X-pipe extensions that fit into the mufflers would have to be cut a little shorter to allow for the longer 22" Magnaflows. So maybe you would be better off going w/a baffled hi-perf muffler like the Flowmasters. But I'm just going by what was said in my conversations w/Nick.

So maybe you should hit him w/some of these questions. I mean you don't have to wait until you're ready to drop your coin on the exhaust to call Nick. You can call him to hit him w/some questions in order to help you w/your decision, and then call him another day to place your order after you've thought about what was said.

As far as your question about how loud the 18" Magnaflows are, well that's tough Question to answer. I mean your idea of loud might be different than mine, and vice-versa. Are they louder than the stock mufflers? Absolutely. Are they too loud? Well that's a matter of opinion.

If your wife doesn't have any interest in performance cars than she might not like the 18" magnaflows. i guess it's a matter of how you drive. i drive my car hard, and if someone challenges me on an open road when the weather is dry, I'll accept the challenge and react. Especially if it's a ricer. And I really don't think there are very many muffllers that are going to outflow the Magnaflow muffs.

If you look into the muffler, you can see right through it. Go on the Magnaflow website, and click on the "Wide open" link and you'll see a diagram pic of the design. I work in a big factory that employs many people, and after driving the car merely two days into work after installing this exhaust system, three guys commented about how great my car sounds now. But those are guys. Most women aren't into the hi-perf thing when it comes to cars.

If you're more concerned w/avoiding drawing attention to your car, then you should go w/the baffled mufflers. But if hi-performance is a priority, then go w/the Magnaflows. I really don't know how much quieter the 22" ones would be. Obviously they would be atleast a little more quiet, but if it would please your wife, or please you? I don't know.

The only other thing I can tell you is that even though the 18" magnaflows are considerably louder than the stock muffs are, it isn't to the point where you have to turn your music sound system all the way up to hear it clearly. If you have the factory Marauder sound system like I do, you won't even have to turn the music up to the half way point to hear it clearly.

But the bottom line is that if you like having a stealth sounding sedan that might surprise some people when you stomp on the gas pedal, then stay away from the straight-thru design Magnaflow mufflers.

But if you like the hi-perf sound, and you want your car to sound more like a race car when you wind it up, then you'll like the magnaflows.

Edited by Logan: Broke it up into some paragraphs!!

[SergntMac]

I just added the Magnaflow 18" to my MM, and IMHO, the 22" should be avoided. They are much too long to fit nicely, and you may affect the overall performance you just paid good money for.

The 18" fit the MM floor pan by tucking up under the back seat, where the seat insulates against cabin howl. The 22" will be in very close proximity to the rear seat floor pan. I suspect rear seat passengers will notice more vibration, and possibly heat in the summer months. Vibration becomes sound when confined in the cabin, and if not installed correctly, they may actually bump the floor pan under power, or, hang too low at that point. Overall, I don't think 22" is a good idea, stick with what works.

If loudness is that critical, leave the Kooks setup as it is and use your factory mufflers. You'll lose a tad of performance, but not enough to be critical. You'll lose less than you would with the 22" too close to the X pipe, and avoid other problems as well. It's a trade off only you should decide. If you want to bump the sound up from there, get the Wes Chain tips?

Thanks for mentioning this Billy G. It strikes me odd that we spend so much time trying to explain what something will sound like. Sound is a sensation absored by the ears, not read by the eyes, and it's all quite subjective. No disagreements with anyone here, just my .02c., based on my own experience.

PS...JohnJamis, just noticed your location, e-me a phone number at SergntMac@aol.com I'm a few blocks east of Oak Lawn, and we can get together somewhere half way so you can hear the 18s," maybe even drive the #1x if you buy the beer.

Now do y'all see how posting your location works?

[BillyGman]

I was beginning to wonder where you were. I'm glad you stopped by.;)

[johnjamis]

SergntMac, I sent you some mail. I just talked to Kooks and they confirmed what you said. There is not enough room for the 22" muffler. I am going to check a couple of other muffler sources and then make my decision. Hearing your car would be a great help. Thanks, John

[johnjamis]

SergntMac was nice enough to meet me for a stock vs 18" magnalow sound comparo. At idle the magnaflows sounded as quiet and deeper tone than my stock setup. Then, I drove the car and there is drone when you are slightly on the gas cruising. It gets quiet when you are out of the gas. When you get on it - it gets loud, but not obnoxious. For me the droning sound in a family car would get old, so I am going to take SergntMac's advice and hook up to the stock muffler. If I can set up a bolt on swap out for the magnaflows, I will do it. Mac's car is awesome - big time power!! Thanks for the Comparo, Mac. John

[Logan]

Sounds like a good plan John!

[SergntMac]

John...It was nice meeting you too, and thanks for driving out to meet with me. I had no problem handing you my keys, sorry I didn't explain the alarm stuff.

It's hard to comment here about how something sounds. When ever possible, y'all should meet up and listen for yourselves. This "what does it sound like" stuff breaks the bank on language, ya know?

Logan...Didn't expect to see ou comment on this light weight thread. After John learned what he wanted to learn, we discussed how to get him there. I suggested a "step-by-step" method, make one change at a time, from front to back. I believe John selected the Kook's headers ETAL, and neck it all into his OEM mufflers, and live with the "so on and so forth" south of them. This way, he can "test and tune" for the sound he desires, replacing what he wants as he goes. "Sounds" like a plan to me, eh? LOL...

[BillyGman]

I'm glad that MAC gave you an oppurtunity to hear the 18" Magnaflow mufflers on his car. That was really great of him to go out of his way for you like that, and I'm sure there are others on this board who would do the same. But because it was MAC who has done that this time, I commend him for that. That was real cool. The more I drive my car now that it has the entire exhaust system that is sold by Kook's on it, the more I like the sound!!!! And believe me, I've invited peoples' critisizm(but only from male car enthusiasts) and I've heard nothing but compliments about the way my car sounds now. And everyone of those guys who offered their comments about how my car sounds, knows me well enough to know that I wouldn't be offended in the least if they were to tell me that they didn't like the way it sounds. So they would have NO reason for telling me that it sounds great if they didn't really think that it does.
But in addition to what MAC has suggested, let me also say that another option for you would be to just buy the Kook's set-up the way it is (w/out the mufflers) and purchase some hi-perf baffled mufflers w/2 1/2" inlets/outlets, so that they will flow better than the stock mufflers, while at the same time be more quiet than the Magnaflow mufflers. And that way they will also slide right over the X-pipe extensions and you can just get two extra band clamps from Kook's to place over the mufflers where they meet the X-pipes. That's not to say what MAC has suggested is wrong, but I'm merely giving you another option to consider. Good luck. :)

[Glenn]

Interesting posts on exhaust systems. I have read and read and heard several MMs including Sarge's. I am also alittle concerned about sound and cabin drone. After closely inspecting the underneath of Sarge's MM (yes, 22" mufflers will not fit) I have deceided to go with D.R.'s Cobra polished E/Ms and X-pipe hooked up to my factory mufflers. I may lose alittle HP, but not much. You can always go with straight through chrome tips if your want more sound. This is an excellent option after the Kook's system. Less HP- yes, but a bunch less money.

Glenn

[BillyGman]

that's fine. There are a few options to us Marauder owners in the way of exhaust packages that are fine, which include Dennis reinhart's exhaust, and Kook's exhaust, and I think that it's great that both of them are offered, and therefore we all have a choice. As far as which one is better, there is no right and wrong here. But rather it's all a matter of what each individual's priority is. For me the Kook's system was the clear choice hands down since it includes true long tube headers. As for me, I've always had the opinion that if I'm going to bother removing the exhaust manifolds from the car, I'm going w/Long tube headers since they will make the most power. But that isn't to say that what dennis has developed is worthless or void of power gains. let me tell you, MartyO has Dennis's exhaust package on his car, and I was at the race track w/him, and in 70 degree weather, the guy ran 13.8 sec ET's all day. So that's not too shabby by any means. Now Marty ofcourse has other mods to his car, but to get into the 13's on a consistent basis w/a N/A Marauder is quite an accomplishment. We're talking about a very small V8 engine pushing a car w/an overall weight of well over 4000LBS.
So which exhaust that you choose is all a matter of priority. There are three things to consider:

Maximum HP gains
cost efficiency
ease of installation

....and let me tell you, you're not going to have all three of those w/either choice of exhaust system you choose, or with any combination. You'll have to sacrifice atleast one of the three for the other two, or perhaps two of them for the other one. You can't have your cake and eat it to w/this.

If you go w/the Kook's as I have, you'll have maximum HP gains, but you'll either have to pay more for labor charges for the installation because of the headers, or you'll have more work performing it yourself than you would w/Dennis Reinhart's set up. The Kook's system will also cost more, but it will yield more HP gains.

If you decide on Dennis Reinhart's exhaust set-up, you'll have an easier/less expensive installation, but w/HP gains a little bit more modest. But either way you go will mean HP gains. It all boils down to what your priority is, and which one of the three factors I've listed is the most important to you. And that's merely a personal choice.

[cyclone03]

The only question I have is,do the 18"magna flows cause the dreaded cabin drone @ cruise speeds?
1600-2200rpm?

That constant waa waa waa for hours on end would kill me on my 2 time a year drives to CA.

Any info?

[johnjamis]

I can't answer that because I think Mac said he had the resonator deleted. I think you will get the drone with no resonator and the magnaflows installed. I am going to try to have the magnaflows installed so I can swap them out with the stock mufflers. If this is possible I will have the answer to your question. John

[TAF]

Originally posted by cyclone03
The only question I have is,do the 18"magna flows cause the dreaded cabin drone @ cruise speeds?
1600-2200rpm?

That constant waa waa waa for hours on end would kill me on my 2 time a year drives to CA.

Any info?

The only "drone" I get with the 18" Magnaflows is right at 1,500 RPMs. Not at 1,300 or 1,700...but right at 1,500. It only REALLY does it in 4th gear. And as a matter of fact...I wouldn't even consider it a full-fledged drone. I was in the car yesterday with 2 Master Techs...and they both laughed at me when I tried to point it out..."You call THAT a "drone"??!!"

If you're cruising for a long time at 1,500 RPM in this car...I say you bought the wrong car. I turn off the OD around town anyway...so staying above 1,500 is a breeze.

[johnjamis]

Todd, do you have the stock resonator tailpipe tips on your car? Thanks for the "drone report". John

[TAF]

Originally posted by johnjamis
Todd, do you have the stock resonator tailpipe tips on your car? Thanks for the "drone report". John

Yes.

[Ross]

There may not be anyone who can answer this, but I'll throw it out there. We know about what to expect in HP gains from the complete Kook's system. Now, if we were concerned about drone and wanted to go with Kook's while keeping the factory mufflers, how much HP would we lose as opposed to using Kook's and 18" Magnaflows? What would the difference in sound and HP be if we used Kook's, factory mufflers, and resonator delete tips?
Maybe kind of confusing, but I'm trying to think through all of the different combinations. I definitely want Kook's for more power, and I would like a better sound Outside the car, but I still want it to be quiet inside.

[BillyGman]

on that. I too have everything behing the mufflers stock, andthere's alittle bit of a droning somewhere between 1500 and 1800 RPM's, but it isn't really annoying at all. Yes, it is noticeable, but it isn't that loud nor is it very intense. It doesn't bother me at all, but even if you don't like it, you'll be focusing much more on how great the car sounds when you wind it up. Besides, since that drone isn't that loud at all, you can just turn on the music. Even if you leave the volume level a little below the halfway mark, it will drown it out.

[cyclone03]

Thanks,all.
Santa should be dropping a set of Kooks headers down the chimney for me in about 2 weeks.
Now if I can just get his sliegh to pick up a torque converter...

[WolfeBros]

I had to chime in here might be helpful and save somebody some money.

I put on 18" Magnaflows first with everything else stock.
$400 worth of mufflers and the car was actually quieter than stock. :rolleyes: It did have a lower tone than before but almost dead quiet at idle and a Towncar quiet exhaust on acceleration.

I then put the resonator delete tips on. Great sound at idle.
Quiet at cruise....about 2200 rpm......and a bit of a nice burble when you let off the throttle at speed. I agree with Todd and Billy that there is just a bit of a drone at 1500 - 1800 rpm. But that is usually in the range where you are accelerating anyway. Once the car shifts into 4th all quiets down with just a nice deeper exhaust note.

If I was to start over........since I was only looking for a change in sound and not for performance gains.........I would do the Wes Chain resonator deleted tips first. It might be enough for some of you guys that just want a little more aggressive sound.

Now with that being said.............Kooks headers are now on my shopping list. Yes......I want the performance benefits and the sound now.

I agree with Mac.........22" will not fit properly on this car.

Good post and 411 Billy and Sarge. :up:

[BillyGman]

Magneflow sells 18" mufflers that are baffled too. Are you sure that the 18" ones that you've tried are the staight-thru design? Before I put mine on my car, I looked inside of them, and found that you can see right through them to the other side. There are no baffles. So that should always be louder than stock mufflers w/baffles. No?

[WolfeBros]

Billy.......I didn't know until you just mentioned it that Magnaflow had both baffled and straight thru designs for the 18" muffler.
:rolleyes: I watched the guy install them but I never inspected the mufflers up close. I suspect now that mine are baffled. :alone:

[BillyGman]

what I was thinking, but I didn't mean to burst your bubble Dude.:D You don't by any chance have the boxes that those mufflers came in do you? Because if you know the part # of your mufflers, then you can go on the Magnaflow website, and look up the 18" straight-thru muffler #'s to see if yours are in there. I believe that there's also a chart on there which includes part #'s for their baffled mufflers too. www.magnaflow.com