Education

[duhtroll]

Yep - I started an off-topic thread, which I rarely ever do. Just been sitting on this one a while and wanted to share.

A "new" perspective: (not new to educators but maybe to you)

In 2011, it is projected that the world's information base will be doubling about every 11 hours. (IBM)

I see posts about "our schools suck because kids today just don't learn the way we did and know the stuff we know."

Of course they don't. They couldn't if they tried. Their brains work differently.

They are responsible not for information, but for application. Your education was designed around delivering information (facts). Theirs isn't. The kids of today have all the information they could ever need in their phone. On what do you test a kid who has Google in their pocket?

Remembering data is just not necessary like it was in the past. They need to be able to find it and know what to do with it.

"Their handwriting and spelling suck and they can't even find X on a map!"

Cursive is no longer being taught. Instead, they learn keyboarding from kindergarten (or earlier). We learned to write because we needed to know how in order to do work. Kids today don't need handwriting very often. Spelling is a pet peeve of mine, too, but the definition of literacy is evolving and we need to evolve with it or be left behind.

It is also projected that teachers and schools today are preparing kids to compete against global, not regional competition for careers that don't even EXIST yet. How? We aren't really sure. How could we be?

Job applications and interviews revolve less around knowledge and more around adaptability and skill in collaboration. How can you learn to service a machine that won't exist for 5 years?

"Schools cost too damn much - I am tired of them always asking for money!"

Schools need computers now. Those cost more than books. Books are often outdated by the time they are finished printing. If you want kids to stay current, they need to have current tech in their hands.

Just some thoughts for you folks out there. Schools are radically different than they were just 5 years ago. And in 5 more years we won't recognize what they were today.

And if your schools are NOT different, time to move!

[Zack]

Schoold should teach things such as:
-How to manage your fininces
-How to make your marriage last
-Common Sense.

Pointless facts on history, biology etc are just that...pointless.

[MM2004]

Interesting perspective.

My daughter is in the 5th grade at a Catholic school, and is still being taught cursive.

Computers are there for the students, and Caitlin has had computer class since the 2nd grade. Along with Spanish class.

I never would have thought that a 5th grade education in a Catholic school would cost close to $5,000.00 annually.

Catholic high schools are now just over $10,000.00.

Children today cannot spell as they are too accustomed to texting on their phones.

That too, is a peeve of mine. Spelling correctly.

Mike.

[Bradley G]

Good stuff.
I did something I rarely do too.
I spelled everything correctly and rated this thread :bows:

[CWright]

Schoold should teach things such as:
-How to manage your fininces
-How to make your marriage last
-Common Sense.

Pointless facts on history, biology etc are just that...pointless.

I totally agree with you! The only thing I would say is that our American History is important to know. Just to know where we came from and keep our Heritage in tact. We can learn alot from the mistakes that were made in the past.:beer:

[Blk Mamba]

Since my exit from the, USMC, I have attended in the area of 20-25 schools, mostly for Technical knowledge, some just for fun. Usually I'm in with others much younger than I, and always thought they were just dunces, but your enlightening post has changed the way I see it now. BTW my daughter, 30ish, is always called upon anytime I need to do anything on my computer.

[sailsmen]

In order to communicate effectively the basic foundations of speech, reading and writing must be mastered. In order to process data math must be mastered. This should be done by the 8th grade.

Beyond 8th grade critical thinking skills is what education needs to focus on and develop.

You are right children are taught different today. When I have helped my children with their home work they have to explain the question/problem to me because it makes no sense to me. I know the answer so I can tell them if they are right or wrong but I cannot explain the answer including math answers in a way that they will get credit for. I can only tell them if their answer is right or wrong.

I recently read a report that if the electricity is out for a year in the USA 90% will die. If what you say is correct then in 10 years 99% would die. With critical thinking skills you can solve new problems with old data.

[Zack]

Young, still partying, not wanting to grow up parents who thought it would be a good idea to make babies are the reason kids are the way they are.

The world would be a better place if no one had children for the next 10 years.

[MrBluGruv]

As a current college student, I couldn't agree more. I guess I'm just old enough to have been taught some of the things you've said are missing, but I am not surprised that they aren't around any more, I see it every day in classes where my peers cannot read properly, even simple words.

To ANY of my friends, I will always say that the knowledge and ability to communicate will always be the first and foremost important skill set to have, because without it all your trivia is useless. On a more specific case in the same vein, working as an IT tech I find it insulting and disgusting when someone can't even tell me the problem they are having with their computer. It's ok to not have a technical knowledge of why your computer isn't working, but just telling me "it's broke", and then responding "I dunno" when I ask you what is happening that is out of the ordinary, unacceptable.


Personally, I think the education system gets worse and worse as you progress up the ladder. Professors aren't held accountable for anything (SERIOUS problem), and more and more that are getting hired are young to the point of they just left school for their doctorate degree themselves. When I have more workplace experience than you, and you are 5-8 years older than me, I have a problem with you telling me "that's just how it is in the 'real world'".


But just to kind of second your point and add on, I really think the direction we are going right now is a highly-specialized population, instead of "well-rounded", for better or worse.

[Zack]

What more do you want professors to do?
You get snot-nosed kids coming through the doors, worse and worse every year.

If you so much as look at the kid wrong the parents have a lawsuit against the school.

The biggest problem is this: So many parents just dont give a crap, that the product of their raising turns out to be nothing but mis-guided then the school system gets blamed.
Then you have a the few kids who are raised properly, by parents that are smart, caring and know whats best......and then the good kid doesnt fit in with the general population and starts acting like all the other F ups.

I can still honestly say Im never having kids and for all the reasons listed above.

(and besides, im WAAAYYYY to selfish to be buying diapers when I can be buying go-fast parts)

[MrBluGruv]

What more do you want professors to do?
You get snot-nosed kids coming through the doors, worse and worse every year.


A friend of mine had a professor who, to his face, told him that the professor overseeing the collider at Stanford and the man that was part of a team that designed airbus were unacceptable references for one of his mechanics(scientific sense) papers, saying that they "don't know what they are talking about". This professor is like 28.

I had a professor just last semester that decided she should take it upon herself to design a syllabus for a class called "American Poetry and Drama" around only the Harlem Renaissance, with one extra mention of the gay movement in Harlem around the same time period. TL;DR: instead of teaching about the class as was titled and summarized in the course catalog, she decided to just talk about what SHE wanted to talk about. This same professor also told me that the way I was writing papers, which I had been receiving A-grades on for years and was also taught in this same university, was wrong and that my previous instructors were wrong in teaching it to me.

These were some of the worse ones, but this kind of stuff happens a LOT on MANY campuses. I think the college education system in general is just extremely flawed, but that's not particularly relevant here.

I will say though, that at least recently, I've had a handful of professors that have gone that extra mile and who's intentions you could clearly see were to have students learn instead of rambling on about something for hours and then acting upset or annoyed when someone doesn't understand and wants help.

[Haggis]

Good post Andrew, for better or worse.

[SC Cheesehead]

In order to communicate effectively the basic foundations of speech, reading and writing must be mastered. In order to process data math must be mastered. This should be done by the 8th grade.

Beyond 8th grade critical thinking skills is what education needs to focus on and develop.

You are right children are taught different today. When I have helped my children with their home work they have to explain the question/problem to me because it makes no sense to me. I know the answer so I can tell them if they are right or wrong but I cannot explain the answer including math answers in a way that they will get credit for. I can only tell them if their answer is right or wrong.

I recently read a report that if the electricity is out for a year in the USA 90% will die. If what you say is correct then in 10 years 99% would die. With critical thinking skills you can solve new problems with old data.


^^^^^^^ Big +1 ^^^^^^ Effective communication transcends writing in cursive or text processing, or texting on your cell phone, and if you can't think critically and can't communicate your thoughts coherently, you're screwed. IMO, that's a constant from my generation to the current day.

[PonyUP]

Great post and interesting thoughts. I will say what I see more and more today from the youth is a sense of entitlement.

"I have a college degree and deserve to make X"
"I went to college and you can't tell me what to do"

Education is more than learning about facts or reading about history or working math problems. A good portion of education comes from practical real world experience. I truly wish that all kids would work a job of at least 25 hrs a week while still attending high school. Perhaps this would eliminate the sense of entitlement that many of them have.

In my experience, many kids coming out of college nowadays just think they are better than those around them, especially people who didn't go to college but have been working hard in their jobs full time since they were 18.

Agreed, there needs to be a greater focus on critical thinking and problem solving as they advance through the education years.

But the biggest problem I see, and this has alwaays been a problem, is disrespect. Maybe I just notice it more now that I am older, but it seems like there is no respect for those that have trailblazed the path ahead of them. (This is not applicable to all, but a good portion of todays youth.)

Just my thoughts, where is that soap box?

[duhtroll]

The critical thinking part - that is what I am getting at. A simple "fill in the blank" worksheet is worthless to a kid today. They can look up every answer and forget it before the class is over.

In contrast, asking them questions that require application of the knowledge, like "explain the controversy (both sides) surrounding the proposed placement of an Islamic cultural center in New York" requires both knowledge and thought.

[SC Cheesehead]

The critical thinking part - that is what I am getting at. A simple "fill in the blank" worksheet is worthless to a kid today. They can look up every answer and forget it before the class is over.

In contrast, asking them questions that require application of the knowledge, like "explain the controversy (both sides) surrounding the proposed placement of an Islamic cultural center in New York" requires both knowledge and thought.

ABSOLUTELY! Unfortunately, IMO, the former is often the case; i.e. looking up the answer, but making no effort to apply the knowledge once learned.

[cvpiftw]

Alright, as a current sophmore in college.... i have to say this. ..


Zack is right. I never really became eccentric until I thought I needed to to fit in with the "In" crowd. If I didnt, id have ALOT of trouble at school. Im not a genuine ******* and am a really nice guy. I was raised to be respectful and intellegent as a kid, unfortunately 4 years of highschool ruined that for me.

[babbage]

The critical thinking part - that is what I am getting at. A simple "fill in the blank" worksheet is worthless to a kid today. They can look up every answer and forget it before the class is over.

In contrast, asking them questions that require application of the knowledge, like "explain the controversy (both sides) surrounding the proposed placement of an Islamic cultural center in New York" requires both knowledge and thought.

People think that the people on jeopardy are smart... They merely have a good memory and can regurgitate facts. Most of them couldn't change their own cars oil for example.

[CBT]

The only two things you need to know, by CBT:
1.) Learn how to manage your money.
2.) Learn what emotional intelligence is and how to use it.

[W4LTD]

Schoold should teach things such as:
-How to manage your fininces
-How to make your marriage last
-Common Sense.

Pointless facts on history, biology etc are just that...pointless.

Schools should also concentrate more on spelling... ;)

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

It's not just the current younger generations and their education, working in retail for several years now, I can honestly say I have witnessed first hand a decline in the general people's common-sense, and overall knowledge level.

There are more and more middle aged people that all of a sudden don't "remember" or don't know how the hell to connect a coax cable to a TV....and furthermore can not grasp the concept of it without repeating it several times and even needing a diagram. Morons.

[Leadfoot281]

How do they teach music/band these days? Assume the kid has an Ipod and call it a day?

[Cheeseheadbob]

Most of the true high dollar earners (mid six figures and up) I know, are the people who learned the fundamental basics in high school and college. Most did not major in obscure fields, although a few have history minors, and most are not brilliant. The common thread to all is that they can articulate ideas, both written and verbal, into action in a concise and understandable way. Said people are successful because they incorporate an educational foundation based in the fundamentals of correct grammar, correct spelling and correct syntax. The great morass of mediocrity will be filled with those people who find it acceptable to fill out job applications in text speak, speak incoherently, and assume the rest of the world will bow to the "inevitable change" being thrust upon us. I say history will not favor the ROM approach to education.

[duhtroll]

What are you, some kinda idiot?

We use Guitar Hero and Rock Band. Duh.


How do they teach music/band these days? Assume the kid has an Ipod and call it a day?

[Ms. Denmark]

1+ on critical thinking skills. Sadly lacking in many, including many with college degrees. One another note that was touched upon by others; kids raised by baby boomers (2 income households and nobody home when Johnny got out of school/ or Johnny spent his time in daycare while Mom worked) seem to me to feel more entitled, less respectful , and more selfish than previous generations. I submit that in many cases these children were made to feel like the center of the universe by guilty parents who could not bring themselves to discipline kids they rarely had time for (because they were working so hard to give their kids a "better" life then they had.) Nor could they tolerate anyone else criticizing them, hence the often heard "Not my little angel!" which made it impossible for kids to get accurate feedback about their behavior from those in the community, neighbors, schools etc. To make up for not being at home to raise their children, these parents became over indulgent, didn't require much responsibility from their offspring and showered them with anything they wanted. This has resulted in people who don't know how to collaborate/cooperate with others, want instant gratification and find the concept of teamwork / working for the greater good foreign. I know this is a gross generalization, but I think there is a kernel of truth here somewhere.

[Bluerauder]

Most of the true high dollar earners (mid six figures and up) I know, are the people who learned the fundamental basics in high school and college. Most did not major in obscure fields, although a few have history minors, and most are not brilliant. The common thread to all is that they can articulate ideas, both written and verbal, into action in a concise and understandable way. Said people are successful because they incorporate an educational foundation based in the fundamentals of correct grammar, correct spelling and correct syntax. The great morass of mediocrity will be filled with those people who find it acceptable to fill out job applications in text speak, speak incoherently, and assume the rest of the world will bow to the "inevitable change" being thrust upon us. I say history will not favor the ROM approach to education.

+1 Bob, I think you are right on the money here. If you do not know the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic, life is gonna present you with challenges. Can't tell you how many resumes that I see that border on illiterate -- after the chuckle, said resumes find the circular file. Unfortunately, the "educators" want to dumb down the curriculum for the students instead of making them measure up to the grade. If the students can't reach the bar; obviously the bar is set too high. :rolleyes: Geeeees !!

BTW -- their brains work EXACTLY the same as ours. Teach 'em the basics. They'll learn the rest. Hell, I am coming up on 60 and am still learning.

[duhtroll]

BTW -- their brains work EXACTLY the same as ours. Teach 'em the basics. They'll learn the rest. Hell, I am coming up on 60 and am still learning.

A great deal of brain research in the past 5-10 years tells us that kids today are fundamentally different in the way they think. They are different in the way they access, absorb, interpret, process and use information and above all, in the way they view, interact and communicate.

[dohc324ci]

Yep - I started an off-topic thread, which I rarely ever do. Just been sitting on this one a while and wanted to share.

A "new" perspective: (not new to educators but maybe to you)

In 2011, it is projected that the world's information base will be doubling about every 11 hours. (IBM)

I see posts about "our schools suck because kids today just don't learn the way we did and know the stuff we know."

Of course they don't. They couldn't if they tried. Their brains work differently.

They are responsible not for information, but for application. Your education was designed around delivering information (facts). Theirs isn't. The kids of today have all the information they could ever need in their phone. On what do you test a kid who has Google in their pocket?

Remembering data is just not necessary like it was in the past. They need to be able to find it and know what to do with it.

"Their handwriting and spelling suck and they can't even find X on a map!"

Cursive is no longer being taught. Instead, they learn keyboarding from kindergarten (or earlier). We learned to write because we needed to know how in order to do work. Kids today don't need handwriting very often. Spelling is a pet peeve of mine, too, but the definition of literacy is evolving and we need to evolve with it or be left behind.

It is also projected that teachers and schools today are preparing kids to compete against global, not regional competition for careers that don't even EXIST yet. How? We aren't really sure. How could we be?

Job applications and interviews revolve less around knowledge and more around adaptability and skill in collaboration. How can you learn to service a machine that won't exist for 5 years?

"Schools cost too damn much - I am tired of them always asking for money!"

Schools need computers now. Those cost more than books. Books are often outdated by the time they are finished printing. If you want kids to stay current, they need to have current tech in their hands.

Just some thoughts for you folks out there. Schools are radically different than they were just 5 years ago. And in 5 more years we won't recognize what they were today.

And if your schools are NOT different, time to move!

I hear what your saying I like that alot of the schools are adapting to the changing world we live in.

Cisco Networking courses in High school; laptops for students; teaching in Spanish only in the classroom until the 6th grade. Yeah some districts are very cutting edge...but

These are some of emerging technologies, that are being taught in a changing global landscape, and how we compete as Americans relies on our schools to

Your forgetting about the WASTE that happens. You got to include the whole picture not just from your perspective.

A very small example but stories like this are rampant. A family member of mine works for a County School District in Northern California in the finance department.

This school district recruited a Superintendent from Southern California; terms of the contract?



Paid housing - 1 Million dollar home
Paid flights back and forth from NorCal to SoCal every weekend

This only looks at one example of the administrative waste. Not to mention the Public Employee Unions that cause great harm to the financial health of counties and states.

Also, social ideology being force fed in the classroom isn't related to the cornerstone of education which is reading writing and arithmetic. Harvey Milk day, Family Planning in elementary school? These are some of the examples that draw the ire of folks toward the schools/educators.

Right?

[duhtroll]

Your forgetting about the WASTE that happens. You got to include the whole picture not just from your perspective.

I think I represent the views of many educators quite well, thanks. I've represented them for over 16 years now.


A very small example but stories like this are rampant. A family member of mine works for a County School District in Northern California in the finance department.

You can find examples of anything, in any profession.


This school district recruited a Superintendant from Southern California; terms of the contract?


Paid housing - 1 Million dollar home
Paid flights back and forth from NorCal to SoCal every weekend

This only looks at one example of the administrative waste.

There is a lot of administrative waste in most school districts in this country. Unfortunately, none of it has anything to do with education and has more to do with politics. School board members who approve all of this stuff are elected officials.

Don't pin the waste on the teachers.

College football coaching salaries make superintendent salaries seem like begging, by comparison.


Not to mention the Public Employee Unions that cause great harm to the financial health of counties and states.

Really? How? Be specific.

The two main arguments I hear about are salary and protection of teacher rights. I'll tackle the second one first.

People complain "unions protect bad teachers."

No, they don't. They protect the process. The only way a bad teacher can stay in a system is if the administration did not do the work necessary to follow the proper termination procedure.

The only thing the union can do is require just cause and due process, and only then after the probationary period, which in many states means during the first two years they can fire any teacher for any reason.

If there is a bad teacher and they don't fire them during the probationary period, they aren't doing their jobs. Period.

When teachers are tenured, if the admin. wish to terminate a teaching contract, they must show just cause and follow proper procedure. Since many administrators are too lazy to follow this procedure (by documenting things that are necessary to bring up in the hearing) the "bad" teacher many times can keep their job.

Don't blame the union because the administration is lazy.

For the second issue - salary, prior to collective bargaining agreements, contracts were issued on a person by person basis. Female teachers were paid less than males, the "buddy system" governed who had the best hours and best pay, and so on. Collective bargaining eliminated much of the "waste" you speak of, by not letting the prized basketball coach get away with the highest salary and only teaching two classes a day.

Is anyone going to seriously argue that people are knocking down the doors to school districts looking for "lucrative" teaching jobs?

Don't pin the waste on the teachers. And by blaming unions, you are blaming the teachers because without majority membership, there is no union for the most part.


Also, social ideology being force fed in the classroom isn't related to the cornerstone of education which is reading writing and arithmetic. Harvey Milk day, Family Planning in elementary school? These are some of the examples that draw the ire of folks toward the schools/educators.

Right?

Wrong. Family planning in school has resulted in a decline in teen pregnancy.

And anything the school is including in the curriculum besides what people generally think of including (the "basics" as someone pointed out earlier)? You can bet it is not the educators wish to include them, but more that parents aren't teaching them.

It is the job of the schools to teach kids how to think, not what to think. If the students are so susceptible to the rhetoric/ideology you mention, then it is because the parents are not doing their jobs raising their kids.

[a_d_a_m]

In my field (public safety), I see our country's fine education system at work on a daily basis. I see the types of kids we are churning out, the children of our future, and I can't help but feel that we are doomed.

Even my co-workers are raising kids who know more about technology than I do. However, at a high-school age, more than half can't tell you any of the following things without reaching for a phone:
-what county we live in (Lake)
-who the governor is (Strickland)
-who the vice-president is (Biden)
-the year Ohio became a state (1803)

I didn't need anything other than my brain to answer those questions.

[babbage]

1+ on critical thinking skills. Sadly lacking in many, including many with college degrees. One another note that was touched upon by others; kids raised by baby boomers (2 income households and nobody home when Johnny got out of school/ or Johnny spent his time in daycare while Mom worked) seem to me to feel more entitled, less respectful , and more selfish than previous generations. I submit that in many cases these children were made to feel like the center of the universe by guilty parents who could not bring themselves to discipline kids they rarely had time for (because they were working so hard to give their kids a "better" life then they had.) Nor could they tolerate anyone else criticizing them, hence the often heard "Not my little angel!" which made it impossible for kids to get accurate feedback about their behavior from those in the community, neighbors, schools etc. To make up for not being at home to raise their children, these parents became over indulgent, didn't require much responsibility from their offspring and showered them with anything they wanted. This has resulted in people who don't know how to collaborate/cooperate with others, want instant gratification and find the concept of teamwork / working for the greater good foreign. I know this is a gross generalization, but I think there is a kernel of truth here somewhere.

Very well said. I'm impressed with the depth you put on this and I agree with you. I guess I'd add that people need to scold their kids more, we need teachers that can effectively discipline students, no lawyers on tv, and less ability for people especially students and minors to file lawsuits so they can be brought up to better standards. We fail greatly as a society that our state and federal government have economized a lot on education. (read: cheap skate) So that a lot of the people finishing at the high-school level really aren't as well equipped as they could be.

[duhtroll]

However, at a high-school age, more than half can't tell you any of the following things without reaching for a phone:
-what county we live in (Lake)
-who the governor is (Strickland)
-who the vice-president is (Biden)
-the year Ohio became a state (1803)

I didn't need anything other than my brain to answer those questions.

Really? Which test shows this? Post it or the link to it.

Did you know that 63% of statistics are made up on the spot? :P

Honestly, I think not knowing who the VP is is actually a good thing, so we'll need some better criteria. :D

And, you're speaking from a biased point of view. Evaluating kids based upon the ones you see in the public safety field? Pretty narrow.

Nevermind that the whole point of the OP was to say that facts are only relevant to this generation when they are needed -- that is, applied. They are curious about different things than we are.

Kids today are "responsible" for exponentially more information (and I mean MILLIONS of times more) than you were when you were in school - yes, even 11 years ago. No human can learn it all.

This is the way things are, not how us old folks want them to be. We can dig our heels into the mud, complain about kids and make no progress, or understand kids today are different and figure out how to reach them in their language. That's what schools are dealing with.

And if Johnny can't read, it is because Johnny's parents never cracked a book with him. Kids should read before they hit kindergarten. Showing a child that reading is important and knowledge has value is simple enough, yet many parents would rather blame the school.

I love the people who post something tantamount to "Well, I'm a friggin' moron so obviously my school sucks!" And they completely miss the irony of the statement.

[sailsmen]

I lived in a City for over 35 years that experienced the Teachers Union oppose every single education reform measure. Those who graduated at the top of their class with all As were unable to read a job application.

As a result of Katrina the Union Contracts were broken and all teachers had to reapply to get a job. 60% of the teachers who had a job before and reapplied were unable to read the job application.

In this City the Teachers Union was solely about the teachers union. The best thing that happened to New Orleans was Katrina washed away the teachers Union. from all quarters the success story in Post Katrina is the education reform.

Am I saying the teachers Union was the root cause of the education failure in New Orleans? No, the root cause was the school board, so corrupt thousands of dead, ex employees, phantom employees collected pay checks. So corrupt the FBI opened an offfice in the school board office. The Labor pool for the teachers were those who graduated from the New Orleans schools, most unable to read. I fault the teachers Union for preventing the teachers who could not read from being fired.

[duhtroll]

I lived in a City for over 35 years that experienced the Teachers Union oppose every single education reform measure. Those who graduated at the top of their class with all As were unable to read a job application.

As a result of Katrina the Union Contracts were broken and all teachers had to reapply to get a job. 60% of the teachers who had a job before and reapplied were unable to read the job application.

In this City the Teachers Union was solely about the teachers union. The best thing that happened to New Orleans was Katrina washed away the teachers Union.

I don't buy this for one second. Unless in LA to get a teaching license you can make it through all of the written testing and degree work without being able to read. Which is likely also BS. and if there is even a shred of truth to it, it is a state political problem that allows anyone walking in off the streets to get a license.

Read the "education reform measures" and you will find that they are as convoluted as bills trying to make it through Congress. And I will bet the "every single" stuff is BS too.

Look, you can have your opinion, but don't insult us by presenting it as fact.

[sailsmen]

Do a search it is all 100% true going back to before Gov Roemer. Yes they could not read a job application. You have no idea what the education system was like in New Orleans.

Don't beleive the search talk to some people who taught in New Orleans, my relatives have.

Yes, the teachers Union opposed every single reform measure.

You know nothing about it.

[sailsmen]

Bassett Huffington Post 8-27-10

Before Hurricane Katrina, the public school system in New Orleans was notoriously corrupt and under-performing. The state deemed a staggering 64 percent of the city's schools to be "academically unacceptable" in 2005, and even earlier this year the pre-Katrina school board president, Ellenese Brooks-Simms, was sentenced to prison for accepting bribes in return for her support of an algebra software program.

Now, five years after Katrina devastated the city, the previously failing public schools in New Orleans are in the midst of some radical improvements, making Orleans Parish a model for struggling school districts around the nation. In November 2005, the state instituted an experimental Recovery School District, by which the Louisiana legislature took 107 under-performing Orleans Parish public schools under its control and turned them into charter schools. Now, over 75 percent of New Orleans students are in charter schools -- the highest percentage in nation.

Paul Vallas, the outgoing superintendent of the Recovery School District, told Newsweek the city "used Katrina as an opportunity to build -- not rebuild, but build -- a new school system," which he described as "overwhelmingly publicly funded, predominantly privately run."

As a result, the quality of public schools in New Orleans has improved significantly. The new hybrid model, whereby charter schools outnumber traditional public schools two to one, has resulted in a new-found emphasis on innovation. Schools have seen gains on standardized testing scores across the board, the average graduation rate for seniors has gone up from 79 percent in 2005 to 90 percent today, and the percentage of schools deemed "academically unacceptable" has dropped from 64 to 42 percent.

Shannon Jones, executive director of the Cowen Institute for Public Education Issues at Tulane, said that although New Orleans public schools still have a long way to go, she thinks the experimental new system is a drastic improvement.

"A significant amount of changes have been made since the storm," she told HuffPost. "Community engagement and student achievement is up, parental involvement is on the rise, and the new schools are completely open-admission. Kids can now go to any school in the city that they choose, whereas before, you had to go to school based on your neighborhood. It's a real free market that isn't being done elsewhere."

While some have speculated that the improvement in student performance in New Olreans reflects a demographic shift since Katrina, a recent Cowen Institute report suggests that the years after Katrina have seen little change overall in the ethnicity and socioeconomic status of public school students. The vast majority of students -- over 90 percent -- are still African American, compared to 61 percent of the whole city's population, and a slightly higher percentage of students are now eligible for free or reduced lunch based on financial need.

One demographic shift that may have had an effect on the schools is the influx of new teachers. Before Katrina, about 40 percent of public school teachers in New Orleans were veteran teachers, with 20 or more years of experience. But in 2005, the Orleans Parish School Board fired nearly all of its teachers, and many charter schools decided to hire newer teachers with alternative certifications through programs like Teach for America and TeachNOLA.

With a slew of new, optimistic teachers, longer schooldays, better technologies and a state-wide commitment to the improvement of public schools, Jones says the only major downside to the new system is sustainability.

"We're spending more money per child than we actually receive from the state," she said. "We had a large influx of federal money to get schools back open, but now that funding cliff is starting to take effect. How do you sustain these reform efforts after the funds dry up and you just have regular per people state and local money? Do you continue to have a Pre-K? A low student teacher ratio? Extra things they may have offered before, they may not be able to do those anymore."

Fortunately, FEMA announced Wednesday that it will award the Orleans Parish School Board $1.8 billion to help refurbish buildings damaged during Katrina and build state of the art educational facilities for the public school system.

Senator Mary Landrieu (D-La.) had a lukewarm response to the announcement, in light of the five-year lag time.

"While we would have liked to have received the money sooner, it was worth the wait," she said.

[sailsmen]

PBS 11-1-2005 http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/education/july-dec05/neworleans_11-01.html

JOHN MERROW: It had other problems besides decrepit buildings. New Orleans, the nation's 50th largest public school system with nearly 60,000 students, had earned a reputation for incompetence and dishonesty.

JIMMY FAHRENHOLTZ: Fraud, corruption, contract scams, flat-out theft, people walking out with laptops, anything you can imagine. Any way you could steal they were doing it.

JOHN MERROW: Since 2002, there have been 24 indictments against school employees. $71 million in federal money was unaccounted for, and there were other problems. Academically, New Orleans was one of the worst public school systems in the country. 70 percent of the eighth graders were not proficient in math, 74 percent in English. Under pressure from the state because of the academic performance and in danger of going bankrupt, the school board acted. It hired a company that specializes in turning around failing organizations. They arrived in New Orleans in July.

JOHN MERROW: What did you find?

BILL ROBERTI: Just years and years and years of abuse, and of people just doing what they wanted to do. I mean there was -- there was no discipline.

JOHN MERROW: Bill Roberti and Sajan George lead the turnaround team from the New York firm of Alvarez and Marsal. They were shocked by what they found.

SAJAN GEORGE: We had a person that has been on paid leave for 35 years. I joked with somebody. Do we send them, you know, like a silver anniversary card? Thank you for 35 years of non- service?

We had documented cases of people that were putting in 50 hours of overtime a week, 50 hours a week, every week of the year, including Christmas.

BILL ROBERTI: They were getting more money in their stipends then they were getting in their basic paychecks. There was $22 million worth of stipends paid out of the New Orleans public school system last year.

[sailsmen]

How many times has the FBI opened an office in the school board admin building?

[sailsmen]

May 11, 2010
Union ties bind kids to inferior schools
(From The Indianapolis Star, May 11, 2010)

By REID LITWACK

Is it possible the Indiana Democratic Party is part of the problem instead of the solution for reducing poverty?
Poverty rates and high school dropout rates are closely aligned.
Fifteen years ago, there was no clear path for education reform. Inner-city education seemed like a puzzle that couldn't be solved. That was then.
Now there are tens of thousands of inner-city students experiencing a college preparatory education in many charter schools and district magnet schools nationwide.
We've seen what can be accomplished by changing both the governance and the culture of school systems. When you combine them, as New Orleans has, you open the door to dramatic results.
New York, Chicago, New Orleans and Washington, D.C., have eliminated publicly elected school boards. All have seen improvement as a result.
New Orleans relegated all union organizing to the individual school level instead of one district-wide contract. As a result, each principal is highly motivated to keep teachers happy as well as achieve academic results. New Orleans has seen test results rise two years in a row, and U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan says Hurricane Katrina was "the best thing that happened to the education system in New Orleans."
There are many examples of the school culture necessary to have inner-city students catch up with their suburban counterparts, and they all seem to include these four components: tight discipline, high expectations, a close relationship between teacher and student, and extended hours.
Combining this culture with streamlined governance helps students catch up to wealthier school districts within three to four years, and causes college matriculation rates to soar.
Why can't the Indianapolis and Gary districts have this combination of streamlined governance and high-achieving schools? Why can't Indiana be on the forefront of education reform instead of always playing catch-up?
You would think the Democratic Party (of which I am a lifelong member) would be the first to embrace a plan that would send thousands more IPS children to college. The party premise has always been to look out for those in need.
This is where politics enters the picture.
The biggest contributor to Democratic House candidates is the Indiana State Teachers Association, which opposes legislation that would give us a shot at true education reform. The Indiana State Teachers Association wants assignments based on seniority. It doesn't want to make it easier for principals to fire underperforming teachers.
Ultimately, it comes down to this: Do we prioritize the needs of adults (the teachers union) over the needs of children? Indiana chooses adults.
A good education is the best way to wage war on poverty, and the Democratic Party has betrayed our ideals through a self-serving alliance with the ISTA.

Litwack is a Center Township business owner and a member of Democrats for Education Reform.

[justbob]

For the second issue - salary, prior to collective bargaining agreements, contracts were issued on a person by person basis. Female teachers were paid less than males, the "buddy system" governed who had the best hours and best pay, and so on. Collective bargaining eliminated much of the "waste" you speak of, by not letting the prized basketball coach get away with the highest salary and only teaching two classes a day.



Curious, as I don't know how teachers unions are structured, is there a ceiling of pay in the collective bargaining? As a union plumber, our wages in the agreement is our MINIMUM wage.

I also just learned that there will be no more school newsletters sent to our house, they will be emailed ONLY. They expect parents to be able to afford a PC and internet service, this does not sit well with me as many families out there simply do not have the extra funds for these luxuries. Also, last year they started offering breakfast at my childs school (for a fee ofcourse) further separating the wealthy from the hurting. Off topic from actual teaching, sorry.

[Local Boy]

I'll say this...

For our children..."Consumption, without contribution, breeds entitlement"...

As for this "New prespective on education"...This computer age is crippling the social abilities of our youth...They have very little face to face conversations anymore; thus leading to the tendency to embellish the truth (not good), as it contributes to a false sense of self...Moreover, having the information at their finger tips (computers), reinforces the poor impulse of instant gratification (not good compounded)...

Working to find the information (this takes time and perseverance) and then assessing how to apply that information (this takes self discipline) will prepare our youth for anything life will throw at them...

Although I realize the limited value of computers (which is simply a time issue - ie: quick access to infromation), there is NO better learning tool than hard work...This begets strong moral character, and fortitude...

The real value of education is not in what is necessarily taught, no one cares who the third president was...The value comes from learning to wake up every morning, when you rather sleep (self-discipline), and report to a destination (school) at a prescibed time (Punctual), then following directions when you're really not interested in the topic (Paying attention to detail), then listening to someone you may not like, but remain polite (Civility)...then doing your best to get the work done (Personal pride)...and getting along with your peers (socializing)...Sound familiar? This is the frame work of a JOB!

My most difficult challenge is dealing with educated idiots...those who have degrees, but lack moral character...

Aloha

[Ms. Denmark]

+1 Local Boy. Schools can offer life lessons well beyond text book (computer) learning. Both skill sets are vital to personal/community/national success. Both of my parents are retired school teachers. I have always admired and been so proud of that. They were educated in Iowa and graduated from Iowa State Teachers College in Cedar Falls. (Now UNI) Mom has a double degree in English and music. She taught both subjects at the Elementary level in Iowa and California. Dad started out with an engineering degree, fell in love with Mom, and got a teaching degree himself! He was a Jr. High vice principle and taught mathematics at the high school level. They had a life long respect and love of learning. But their real passion was teaching. They both spent hours of their own time both after school and on weekends in that effort. There were the students who required extra assistance, parents who called for advice, after school musicals and activities, lesson prepartion, bullitin boards and classroom projects to set up not to mention continuing their own education by attending summer school to obtain advanced degrees. I think they embodied the best motives and personal qualities required to excel in a very difficult profession. A little off subject, but thanks for induging me. I'm extremely lucky and proud to be their daughter....but their hundreds of students are lucky as well!

[Ms. Denmark]

Curious, as I don't know how teachers unions are structured, is there a ceiling of pay in the collective bargaining? As a union plumber, our wages in the agreement is our MINIMUM wage.
Bob, can't speak to the specifics, but where we live, classroom teacher's salaries start in the 30s. It's also very dependent on where you live. Salaries vary widely. A masters degree is required to advance in many/most positions. Not yet a profession to enter if you want to get rich quick.....unless you get a doctorate degree and a superintendent job. It is very possible to live a comfortable life on a teacher's salary given the right set of circumstances. My parents started out in Iowa with very little, worked hard, were not extravagent, lived well within their means, encouraged us to work and contribute to our own college expenses, invested wisely, bought a home at the right time and place (Silicon Valley) years later sold it at the right time for $865,000 more than they paid for it (very lucky!),they also bought a second home on the ocean (enjoyed to this day) raised 3 daughters and had a very happy marriage in the bargain. I'll be lucky to do half as well! LOL

[Local Boy]

Ms. Denmark...Your parents were the model ALL teachers should strive for... God Bless them...Unfortunately, not every teacher has that same passion, and our youth suffer the consequences...

Aloha

[Local Boy]

Sorry double post...

Aloha

[duhtroll]

Interestingly enough, my wife and I also attended UNI and have 4 degrees from there, and we both teach in Iowa, although her primary job is academic advising at UNI. We also started with very little and we live modestly and within our means.

My students asked how I could afford the Marauder (and let's face it, for original owners I was on the very bottom of the demographic that could own these cars). My answer?

"I don't drink, I don't smoke, and I don't play golf. Add that up and you get more than a Marauder." (Golf is big here - many schools have their own courses.)

Iowa students just ranked #2 on SATs again this year. 22.7 average with more students than ever taking the test, IIRC.

There are salary ceilings in most teaching jobs, after which a COLA is added in whatever increments agreed upon. With a Master's degree and 30+ credit hours above that and 17 years worth of experience, that will get you around $55,000 here (max salary) right now. We have a good salary schedule (slightly above average) for schools our size (approx 650 kids K-12 rural area).



Bob, can't speak to the specifics, but where we live, classroom teacher's salaries start in the 30s. It's also very dependent on where you live. Salaries vary widely. A masters degree is required to advance in many/most positions. Not yet a profession to enter if you want to get rich quick.....unless you get a doctorate degree and a superintendent job. It is very possible to live a comfortable life on a teacher's salary given the right set of circumstances. My parents started out in Iowa with very little, worked hard, were not extravagent, lived well within their means, encouraged us to work and contribute to our own college expenses, invested wisely, bought a home at the right time and place (Silicon Valley) years later sold it at the right time for $865,000 more than they paid for it (very lucky!),they also bought a second home on the ocean (enjoyed to this day) raised 3 daughters and had a very happy marriage in the bargain. I'll be lucky to do half as well! LOL

[duhtroll]

Our district provided kids with laptops in the high school for a $50 per year fee.

Middle school likely will have the same next year.

Breakfasts are subject to the free and reduced fee lunch program - kids can get them for free if their families are poor in most places.

And yes, we have not only eliminated print media being sent home, but also printed report cards. Parents are expected to have internet access. It is the way the world works now. They can also login to check grades at any time during the semester, rather than play phone tag or wait for report cards or conferences.

We are thinking of getting rid of report cards as we know them for something more like a portfolio - a letter grade is simply not a good descriptor of a student's work and abilities. We need something vastly more comprehensive.

How could we possibly have competitive schools if we still rely on printouts when the rest of the world is going to google docs? (or similar) How could we prepare kids for the workplace if we don't teach them current methods? I know it might not be what you want to hear, but email is 20 years or more old now. It isn't an innovation anymore.

The kids who could not afford computers on their own are the ones who have taken the best care of their laptops, btw. They truly see them as valuable. The richer kids couldn't give a hoot.


Curious, as I don't know how teachers unions are structured, is there a ceiling of pay in the collective bargaining? As a union plumber, our wages in the agreement is our MINIMUM wage.

I also just learned that there will be no more school newsletters sent to our house, they will be emailed ONLY. They expect parents to be able to afford a PC and internet service, this does not sit well with me as many families out there simply do not have the extra funds for these luxuries. Also, last year they started offering breakfast at my childs school (for a fee ofcourse) further separating the wealthy from the hurting. Off topic from actual teaching, sorry.

[duhtroll]

What I see here is no hard evidence of your previous claims, #1, and you are comparing apples and oranges, #2 (schools pre- and post-Katrina). There is no data here on which students left and which students stayed. Statistically, that is a shot in the dark at best.

I haven't seen anything in what you posted that said the teachers couldn't read - only that they abused a system that had no oversight. Well, EVERY system with no oversight gets abused. We have so many examples I need not mention them.

I fail to see how the teaching licensure system can turn out people who can't read. That is a problem at the state level - and I don't see any evidence of it here. I did see that they privatized schools, which made improvements but is also going to bankrupt them.

How about simply requiring the administration to evaluate the people they "hire," in which case the problems would be evident?

I also see nothing about opposing "every single" reform measure. And as for knowing "nothing about it," you are only posting secondhand information at best.

That, and everything you have posted reflects an administrative problem, and on up the chain. If they hire criminals with no real credentials, they get what they get. Your last article specifically mentions a governance problem (in Indiana, BTW, not LA) and has nothing to do with unions or actual teachers. Here is a quote:

>>

The biggest contributor to Democratic House candidates is the Indiana State Teachers Association, which opposes legislation that would give us a shot at true education reform. The Indiana State Teachers Association wants assignments based on seniority. It doesn't want to make it easier for principals to fire underperforming teachers. >>

This is someone's opinion, not fact. how many times have you seen political accusations thrown across the aisle by the minority party? (or both?) Every day, no matter which party is in charge? Accusations like this don't mean anything. Post the bill and we can discuss it - not some guy's opinion of something he couldn't get passed.

In his quote, by "not making it easier to fire underperforming teachers," what they could easily be saying is the union isn't handing them over with no due process, which is exactly the problem I laid out earlier. If there is just cause, I defy anyone here to find a union-negotiated contract that allows protection of a bad teacher if the termination procedure is followed.

"OK smarty (you might ask), why do we even need such a process?"

Because all of the problems you posted before this one related to administrative and school board abuses. No one can be on paid leave for 35 years without Board and administrative approval. There needs to be a check to that power when they want to indiscriminately fire good teachers who they don't happen to like. Thus, due process.

And yeah, I have seen this system work dozens of times in my tenure.

The same people who "took control" aka your legislature are also the ones who laid out the criteria for hiring. If they hire uncertified felons, well... how did this happen without any oversight from the Board, the Mayor, and so on up?

They put idiots in charge and now after it bit them in the a$$ they have finally hired some real teachers. It doesn't matter if they are public or private, only that now there is SOME oversight. It appeared before there wasn't any, and it had nothing to do with the union.

So in essence you are using the most extreme example, many of whom aren't even teachers, to evaluate education as a whole? Please say no.


Bassett Huffington Post 8-27-10

Before Hurricane Katrina, the public school system in New Orleans was notoriously corrupt and under-performing. The state deemed a staggering 64 percent of the city's schools to be "academically unacceptable" in 2005, and even earlier this year the pre-Katrina school board president, Ellenese Brooks-Simms, was sentenced to prison for accepting bribes in return for her support of an algebra software program.

Now, five years after Katrina devastated the city, the previously failing public schools in New Orleans are in the midst of some radical improvements, making Orleans Parish a model for struggling school districts around the nation. In November 2005, the state instituted an experimental Recovery School District, by which the Louisiana legislature took 107 under-performing Orleans Parish public schools under its control and turned them into charter schools. Now, over 75 percent of New Orleans students are in charter schools -- the highest percentage in nation.

Paul Vallas, the outgoing superintendent of the Recovery School District, told Newsweek the city "used Katrina as an opportunity to build -- not rebuild, but build -- a new school system," which he described as "overwhelmingly publicly funded, predominantly privately run."

As a result, the quality of public schools in New Orleans has improved significantly. The new hybrid model, whereby charter schools outnumber traditional public schools two to one, has resulted in a new-found emphasis on innovation. Schools have seen gains on standardized testing scores across the board, the average graduation rate for seniors has gone up from 79 percent in 2005 to 90 percent today, and the percentage of schools deemed "academically unacceptable" has dropped from 64 to 42 percent.

Shannon Jones, executive director of the Cowen Institute for Public Education Issues at Tulane, said that although New Orleans public schools still have a long way to go, she thinks the experimental new system is a drastic improvement.

"A significant amount of changes have been made since the storm," she told HuffPost. "Community engagement and student achievement is up, parental involvement is on the rise, and the new schools are completely open-admission. Kids can now go to any school in the city that they choose, whereas before, you had to go to school based on your neighborhood. It's a real free market that isn't being done elsewhere."

While some have speculated that the improvement in student performance in New Olreans reflects a demographic shift since Katrina, a recent Cowen Institute report suggests that the years after Katrina have seen little change overall in the ethnicity and socioeconomic status of public school students. The vast majority of students -- over 90 percent -- are still African American, compared to 61 percent of the whole city's population, and a slightly higher percentage of students are now eligible for free or reduced lunch based on financial need.

One demographic shift that may have had an effect on the schools is the influx of new teachers. Before Katrina, about 40 percent of public school teachers in New Orleans were veteran teachers, with 20 or more years of experience. But in 2005, the Orleans Parish School Board fired nearly all of its teachers, and many charter schools decided to hire newer teachers with alternative certifications through programs like Teach for America and TeachNOLA.

With a slew of new, optimistic teachers, longer schooldays, better technologies and a state-wide commitment to the improvement of public schools, Jones says the only major downside to the new system is sustainability.

"We're spending more money per child than we actually receive from the state," she said. "We had a large influx of federal money to get schools back open, but now that funding cliff is starting to take effect. How do you sustain these reform efforts after the funds dry up and you just have regular per people state and local money? Do you continue to have a Pre-K? A low student teacher ratio? Extra things they may have offered before, they may not be able to do those anymore."

Fortunately, FEMA announced Wednesday that it will award the Orleans Parish School Board $1.8 billion to help refurbish buildings damaged during Katrina and build state of the art educational facilities for the public school system.

Senator Mary Landrieu (D-La.) had a lukewarm response to the announcement, in light of the five-year lag time.

"While we would have liked to have received the money sooner, it was worth the wait," she said.

[duhtroll]

I'll say this...

For our children..."Consumption, without contribution, breeds entitlement"...

As for this "New prespective on education"...This computer age is crippling the social abilities of our youth...They have very little face to face conversations anymore; thus leading to the tendency to embellish the truth (not good), as it contributes to a false sense of self...Moreover, having the information at their finger tips (computers), reinforces the poor impulse of instant gratification (not good compounded)...

And there is newer information that while "we" think kids are anti-social because they do not socialize the way we do, in reality they are very social - actually much more than "we" are - to a fault, even. They talk on the phone, chat, and text often all at the same time. They are what are called "hypercommunicators."

They actually find value in reading facebook status updates. :puke:

I hate it too, (personally, but I can separate my personal views from teaching, despite what leadfoot thinks) but it doesn't mean they lack social skills. It means their skills are different. Yes, they are annoying to us and yes there is more BS, but I deal with students every day and know they also know how to filter the BS.

I have fantastic students and don't teach in a failing school but we also aren't the richest district in the state, either.


Working to find the information (this takes time and perseverance) and then assessing how to apply that information (this takes self discipline) will prepare our youth for anything life will throw at them...

Although I realize the limited value of computers (which is simply a time issue - ie: quick access to infromation), there is NO better learning tool than hard work...This begets strong moral character, and fortitude...


Having computers and working to find information are not mutually exclusive.

Filtering through the garbage available on computers is a LOT of work. Many people who post anti-whatever tirades on here don't yet know how to do this.


The real value of education is not in what is necessarily taught, no one cares who the third president was...The value comes from learning to wake up every morning, when you rather sleep (self-discipline), and report to a destination (school) at a prescibed time (Punctual), then following directions when you're really not interested in the topic (Paying attention to detail), then listening to someone you may not like, but remain polite (Civility)...then doing your best to get the work done (Personal pride)...and getting along with your peers (socializing)...Sound familiar? This is the frame work of a JOB!

I'll say that there are as many adults acting just as stupid online as there are "kids." The loss of civility is not an age-related problem. It is a medium-related problem irrespective of age.

[Leadfoot281]

Leave me outta this. I've never once expressed any concern over you being able to keep your personal views and your job seperate...written or otherwise. In fact, I have absolutely no idea where you came up with that.

[Local Boy]

duhtroll...I can understand, and would agree to some extent, with your point of view coming from an educators perspective; however, I come from the other side of the tracks in my perspective. I'am the Administrator of, and operate a 72,000 square foot, 66 bed Juvenile Detention Facility here on O'ahu. We service the entire State of Hawaii. The fact that my wife has been a Juvenile Probation Offcer for the past 20 years only supports my position.

After 18 years in this field, it has been my experience to see the difficulties our youth encounter through out their young lives...education being simply another variable I must address.

With all due respect, your views are somewhat narrow, and only speak to those situations which are considered main stream. If you would consider the aspects of those juveniles who are "at-risk", and the contributing variables which have negatively impacted their lives, I would hope that your perspectives would broaden to include those juveniles that need the most help, with regard to their education...After all, when we talk about "education" it should include ALL juveniles whether they are in school or in my facility...The basic premise should remain the same...although the application, of such, must be adjusted.

Now, if you want to talk specifically about your school or your students...Then I would acknowledge your good efforts....

Assuming this is not the case...I'll continue...

Spend 5 minutes in my facility, and you will see that most, if not all, of my population are mal-adjusted and anti-social, in varying degrees...For these unfortunate juveniles, your approach does not apply.

All things considered, you have it easy, as you describe your students as "fantastic"...Try teaching a juvenile who is incarcerated for murder, or rape, or prostitution or whatever heinous crime you can think of, including but not limited to, being neglected by their parents....That my friend, is my challenge...

I trust that you are doing a fine job teaching your students...and I applaude you for your efforts...However, I would ask that you not be so inclined to discount the views of others, as there are multiple facets to an individual which culminate to their outward expressions of their behavior, and mind set. Adolescence is the most difficult time of adjustment for an individual...some have more difficulty than others...and some fail all together...Discussions of "Education" must be broad rather than narrow...inclusive rather than divisive...

I do believe...that to be "educated"...you must be open minded...If not... arrogance will surely follow...

True knowledge does not reside in one school of thought...

Aloha

[duhtroll]

You have a very short memory.

1) You have criticized me several times on "how on earth could you be a teacher" etc. and tried to draw conclusions for me in many discussions on this board, based on my views in other discussions.

Search your own posts if you don't believe me.

2) You involved yourself in this thread by taking yet another pot shot with the ipod remark.

If you want to be left out, I'd say stay out to begin with. :D I don't care if you are in the discussion, but don't complain about being in it voluntarily.


Leave me outta this. I've never once expressed any concern over you being able to keep your personal views and your job seperate...written or otherwise. In fact, I have absolutely no idea where you came up with that.

[duhtroll]

The concepts of narrow and mainstream are generally opposites. In other words speaking from a mainstream viewpoint would include a majority. So I don't think it is a narrow viewpoint - quite the contrary.

I value anyone who can work with at-risk kids. I have only done it sparingly in my job and it is always hard to not take it home with you.

However, my district does have a significant number of kids who qualify for free/reduced lunches and require much more attention and care than other students. I spend much of my time after school finding and repairing/maintaining equipment for kids so they can participate. Those kids are always the most grateful.

I see many of the difficulties you speak of, where some kids are lucky to have even one parent, or a home. Some don't. At risk kids are in every classroom, at least around here.

While murder is pretty rare around here, we have our share of everything else you speak of. Suicide, drug abuse, prostitution, you name it.

As you said, my focus is different than yours, but then again the discussion here is about mainstream education. So if I am being exclusive, it is because of the topic at hand, not that other things don't exist.


duhtroll...I can understand, and would agree to some extent, with your point of view coming from an educators perspective; however, I come from the other side of the tracks in my perspective. I'am the Administrator of, and operate a 72,000 square foot, 66 bed Juvenile Detention Facility here on O'ahu. We service the entire State of Hawaii. The fact that my wife has been a Juvenile Probation Offcer for the past 20 years only supports my position.

After 18 years in this field, it has been my experience to see the difficulties our youth encounter through out their young lives...education being simply another variable I must address.

With all due respect, your views are somewhat narrow, and only speak to those situations which are considered main stream. If you would consider the aspects of those juveniles who are "at-risk", and the contributing variables which have negatively impacted their lives, I would hope that your perspectives would broaden to include those juveniles that need the most help, with regard to their education...After all, when we talk about "education" it should include ALL juveniles whether they are in school or in my facility...The basic premise should remain the same...although the application, of such, must be adjusted.

Now, if you want to talk specifically about your school or your students...Then I would acknowledge your good efforts....

Assuming this is not the case...I'll continue...

Spend 5 minutes in my facility, and you will see that most, if not all, of my population are mal-adjusted and anti-social, in varying degrees...For these unfortunate juveniles, your approach does not apply.

All things considered, you have it easy, as you describe your students as "fantastic"...Try teaching a juvenile who is incarcerated for murder, or rape, or prostitution or whatever heinous crime you can think of, including but not limited to, being neglected by their parents....That my friend, is my challenge...

I trust that you are doing a fine job teaching your students...and I applaude you for your efforts...However, I would ask that you not be so inclined to discount the views of others, as there are multiple facets to an individual which culminate to their outward expressions of their behavior, and mind set. Adolescence is the most difficult time of adjustment for an individual...some have more difficulty than others...and some fail all together...Discussions of "Education" must be broad rather than narrow...inclusive rather than divisive...

I do believe...that to be "educated"...you must be open minded...If not... arrogance will surely follow...

True knowledge does not reside in one school of thought...

Aloha

[Leadfoot281]

You have a very short memory.

1) You have criticized me several times on "how on earth could you be a teacher" etc. and tried to draw conclusions for me in many discussions on this board, based on my views in other discussions.

Totally true. Whenever a teacher says; "We can teach 'em but we can't make 'em learn" I wonder why we even bother to pay you. We you said; "The capitalists have been in charge long enough" I worry about the future of the country you're shaping. But when I realized your probably just a music/band teacher, your personal view points no longer concern me. Karl Marx could teach your class for all I care.

Search your own posts if you don't believe me.

2) You involved yourself in this thread by taking yet another pot shot with the ipod remark.

Not pot shot was taken. Actually I was just making a point about how not every subject in school can be taught with a "we don't know how to do this" approach you outlined in the first post. Some of it requires simple memorization and practice. You missed it though.

If you want to be left out, I'd say stay out to begin with. :D I don't care if you are in the discussion, but don't complain about being in it voluntarily.

I'm going for a motorcycle ride. Vroom, vroom! Later. :burnout:

[Local Boy]

Thank you for the clarification...duhtroll...

"As you said, my focus is different than yours, but then again the discussion here is about mainstream education. So if I am being exclusive, it is because of the topic at hand, not that other things don't exist."

That's a fair statement...

I wish you great success in your future endeavors...I'm sure your students are lucky to have you in the classroom...

Aloha

[duhtroll]

And again, you try to speak for me as if it makes things true.

At least you are consistent.

Denigrating a profession makes you sound petty, BTW. But hey, you've done that before too - not surprising you'd fall back on it when you have no point to make.


I'm going for a motorcycle ride. Vroom, vroom! Later. :burnout:

[Leadfoot281]

And again, you try to speak for me as if it makes things true.

At least you are consistent.

Denigrating a profession makes you sound petty, BTW. But hey, you've done that before too - not surprising you'd fall back on it when you have no point to make.

"We can only teach them, we can't make them learn" is YOUR QUOTE!!! :lol:
We were having the same discussion right here, maybe 4 years ago and I mentioned how my friends wife once asked me; "Do they have houses in Alaska?". She honestly did not know! I also mentioned that she is not retarded and that she also graduated high school in Wisconsin.

Again, "We can only teach them. We can't make them learn" was YOUR exact response. I'm sorry but hearing that come from a teacher makes me cringe.

Keep blaming the parents. Then ask them for more money. After that try and explain to us why kids in every other industrialized nation in the world continuously outperform our kids year after year.

You don't need me to denigrate you. Between the numerous sex scandals and low performance rates of your students you're doing fine job of it yourselves.

[duhtroll]

"We can only teach them, we can't make them learn" is YOUR QUOTE!!!

Wow, you jumped on that one quick, but I was referring to the second part of your post. I'll pause now while you reread and figure out that you were trying to speak for me then, as well.

I'd include that "failure" sound effect from "The Price is Right" for you here, but I can't seem to find it.


We were having the same discussion right here, maybe 4 years ago and I mentioned how my friends wife once asked me; "Do they have houses in Alaska?". She honestly did not know! I also mentioned that she is not retarded and that she also graduated high school in Wisconsin.

Again, "We can only teach them. We can't make them learn" was YOUR exact response. I'm sorry but hearing that come from a teacher makes me cringe.

And if you had read anything in this discussion (or the others) with any comprehension, you would know that forcing knowledge and desire for learning into someone's head is impossible. Otherwise prisons wouldn't be so crowded.

Or do you think teachers deliberately do as little as possible, worldwide? (Yes, the problems exist in other countries too. As much as you would like to blame just U.S. teachers it just isn't factual.)

Yep, we all went into teaching just to see how lazy we could make kids, worldwide. You caught us! :shake:


Keep blaming the parents. Then ask them for more money. After that try and explain to us why kids in every other industrialized nation in the world continuously outperform our kids year after year.

More fallacy. We also are counting every kid. Many nations don't even have all their kids in school TO count, and even more nations only require schooling until the equivalent of the 8th grade, meaning only those who choose schooling in "high school" ages are counted against our average of every kid.

Our top kids are on par with top kids from other countries. After that, it is apples and oranges. I'm going to bet you didn't know that. You should find a teacher to blame, I guess. :rolleyes:

But you don't want to hear that -- it destroys your rant of the day. Don't worry, you can rant about losing today's rant during tomorrow's. :)

OK, lets be specific about the problem of not knowing about houses in Alaska.

You don't think the parents of an individual who asks whether or not they have houses in Alaska had anything to do with that?

My daughter just started school and she knows that. She also knows quite a bit about other countries, climates, and so on.

I'm not saying I'm the perfect parent, but if I can do it, why can't others? Why is it when people don't know something they blame schools?

To do so is the failing of an ignorant person, and I am going on record as labeling you an ignorant person. You appear to view teachers as people who owe you something and can force kids to do school work. Well, they don't, and they can't. They do a job, same as anyone else.

They can give kids the tools they need to have a productive life and can provide an environment in which they can use and develop those tools.

And if the people they work with choose to not participate and ignore the subject matter, then no teacher can make the difference. But if you have a student who fits this category, (and barring mental deficiency, etc.) it is a family problem.


You don't need me to denigrate you. Between the numerous sex scandals and low performance rates of your students you're doing fine job of it yourselves.

The low performance rates of "my" students? Really? My students are at the top of their conference AND in the top category of the state, 12 years running.

I guess there is another ASSumption you made that backfired.

As for the sex scandals, are you really going to say they are more prevalent in teaching than anywhere else? Or are you just watching FOX News and talking out of the wrong orifice again?

Using the logic you present here about teachers, you had better damn well blame your doctor for the next health problem you have. Same logic.

Cavities in your mouth must be your dentist's fault, too, because he didn't MAKE you floss.

Have a nice day.

[CBT]

C-c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker!

22375

[dohc324ci]

Damn no kidding....dutroll is on a roll...

Have fun boys!

[PonyUP]

[QUOTE=duhtroll;951048]
I'd include that "failure" sound effect from "The Price is Right" for you here, but I can't seem to find it.


TIvxqUCu41Q

Sorry liked that line and had to do it :lol:. Continue gentlemen

[Leadfoot281]

Look Andy, even if my friends wife had the absolute worst parents in history, there is absolutely no reason in hell she should have been able to get earn a high school diploma without knowing there are houses in Alaska. Period.

This whole 'we didn't fail her, she failed us' attitude isn't helping anyone. That'd be like me looking at flat tire and saying "it's only flat on one side. It must be trying it's best. I'm driving to Chicago." Uneducated is uneducated. At least her school district was able to take credit for passing her. More union CYA.

Also, I mis-spoke when I said "your kids are failing". I meant to say Americas kids are failing. Sorry about that. Education wouldn't be a major topic every campaign cycle if that wasn't the case. Even you know it's broken.

I don't have an axe to grind with you. I'm just putting your feet to the fire. The tax payers deserve to know what's going on.

[duhtroll]

Look Andy, even if my friends wife had the absolute worst parents in history, there is absolutely no reason in hell she should have been able to get earn a high school diploma without knowing there are houses in Alaska. Period.

Every single person on this board, or alive for that matter, has some stupid thing (likely many) that they should know that they don't know.

Maybe this person has more than most. But to say that all of these things are relevant to a HS exit exam is a stretch to say the least. The exam would be millions of questions long in order to get to the point where Alaskan housing would matter.

Education does not counteract stupidity, but in some cases it can replace ignorance.

There are people with PhDs that can't set up their voice mail accounts or balance a check book. I say "so what?" It doesn't mean their school failed them.


This whole 'we didn't fail her, she failed us' attitude isn't helping anyone. That'd be like me looking at flat tire and saying "it's only flat on one side. It must be trying it's best. I'm driving to Chicago."

You would be correct, if that is what I was saying. It has virtually nothing to do with the point of the thread.


Uneducated is uneducated. At least her school district was able to take credit for passing her. More union CYA.

I could quiz you on a thousand things you don't know, and you could do the same for me.

Again I say, so friggin' what?


Also, I mis-spoke when I said "your kids are failing". I meant to say Americas kids are failing. Sorry about that. Education wouldn't be a major topic every campaign cycle if that wasn't the case. Even you know it's broken.

I disagree. I think too many people look at schools like they are businesses and say that if they don't meet such and such an average then they failed. Or better yet, compare totally different students from totally different areas with totally different situations.

Businesses get to send back raw materials that are unsatisfactory. Schools don't. They deal with whatever situation each kid has, and they are happy to do it. What they don't stand for are people saying that every outcome for every kid should be the same, which is what ESEA wants (that would be No Child Left Behind, y'all.)

Trying to convince a kid who is wondering where his next meal is coming from that the Pythagorean theorem is important is harder than it might seem.

I have said it many times. Income determines scholastic success far more than any other factor. The poorest areas are usually the most under-performing.


I don't have an axe to grind with you. I'm just putting your feet to the fire. The tax payers deserve to know what's going on.

So what is going on that you think is within our power to change and yet we refuse to change?

Why must you insist incompetence is the only answer?

Children are NOT products.

[MrBluGruv]

There are people with PhDs that can't set up their voice mail accounts or balance a check book. I say "so what?" It doesn't mean their school failed them.

I agree that the school system isn't to blame (unless they didn't try at all with those areas, and even then society obviously doesn't think those subjects are important to public schooling because rarely do I see or hear of that being part of ANY schooling system.), but as someone who works with doctors on a daily basis with problems on their phone and computer systems, I do feel it's shameful the amount of technology illiteracy I see. It's not a matter of keeping up with new fads, computers and networking are standard business practice now, if you can't operate them in a business environment you are behind on the times.

I guess I just feel that it cheapens the value of a doctorate degree to see people like this; when you have one but can't do simple tasks with the status quo of technology in the environment in which you CHOSE to enter, you just become a walking encyclopedia of trivia, and I'm sorry but I see no real use for that, as frankly like was stated earlier, we have Google for that now (for better or worse).


Little off-topic, but my 2 cents on that subject...

[boatmangc]

:popcorn:
Wow!
I am SO glad I had a vasectomy at 25.