mid-length headers?

[frdwrnch]

Has anyone heard of mid-length headers? Who supplies them? I was recently at a dynotune session and one of the tuners told me to "go with the mids" for headers.

[TAF]

I think the KOOKs are considered "mid-length". I think everyone assumes mid/long length are the best for our application due to that's what folks have thought for years on the Mustangs.

I personally don't subscribe to this notion. The shorties from Dennis is what I'd recommend to everyone. And I've got dyno numbers to prove it.

[TripleG]

TAF hope your right I too bought from Dennis. Did you change your mufflers. I thinking of getting these http://www.aero-turbine.com/index.html. i talked to the engineer out there and there theory sound very High tech.

[frdwrnch]

I've seen pictures of the kooks headers and I'm disturbed by clearance issue with the starter and trans. I plan some trans improvements requiring R&R and don't want to make life difficult for myself. Visually the kooks look like they would flow better.

[TAF]

Originally posted by TripleG
TAF hope your right I too bought from Dennis. Did you change your mufflers. I thinking of getting these http://www.aero-turbine.com/index.html. i talked to the engineer out there and there theory sound very High tech.

I KNOW I'm right...look here for Dyno sheet and a complete description...CLICK HERE (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5946&highlight=shes)

As for mufflers...I went with the 18" Magnaflows and could not recommend them any higher. I didn't want loud, 'cause it's my business car, but wanted 'throatier"...and that's exactly what I got.

[Warpath]

Bassani makes midlengths for Mustangs. They may or may not fit MMs. What I've picked up reading around, shorties for N/A and LTs (long tubes) for blown motors. I don't have dyno numbers handy to prove it. Just thought I'd mention it though.

http://www.bassani.com/default.cfm?fuseaction=catalog .productreleasefor'03cobra
http://www.bassani.com/images/4.6L%20headers.png

[BillyGman]

Originally posted by TAF
I think the KOOKs are considered "mid-length". I think everyone assumes mid/long length are the best for our application due to that's what folks have thought for years on the Mustangs.

I personally don't subscribe to this notion. The shorties from Dennis is what I'd recommend to everyone. And I've got dyno numbers to prove it.

TAF, maybe I'm missing something here, but I didn't see any of your "Proof" that shorty headers produce more power than the Kook's long tube headers do. It's my understanding that Logan's car gained 50 HP from the Kook's exhaust. So I don't understand the reasoning for your statements.

[SergntMac]

I've had about enough of this "header" pizzing contest, time to set the record straight. No offense to anyone intended.


Originally posted by BillyGman
TAF, maybe I'm missing something here, but I didn't see any of your "Proof" that shorty headers produce more power than the Kook's long tube headers do. It's my understanding that Logan's car gained 50 HP from the Kook's exhaust. So I don't understand the reasoning for your statements.

Maybe TAF hasn't posted his proof, but he has proven a performance gain from shortie headers on a dyno, among 15 or so fellow MM owners at the ATL meet, Dennis and Jerry among the crew. Very remarkable numbers I might add.

I believe TAF has the highest RWTQ/RWTQ among all NA Marauders at this time. Kudos to TAF and his selection of mods and wrenches. This is not an easy task, there are no perfect formulas for building your own personal MM. It's TAFs choice to post his dyno report, but this test was not conducted in vacume. Too may witnesses present, he can't frost the numbers.

TAFs gain did not exceed the gain from Reinhart's polished manifolds, which I proved shortly after TAF's dyno, also not posted because that's my choice. Again, also documented among the same circle of MM owners and friends, there is no BSing here, Billy, way too many witnesses.

So, the above statement needs to be corrected, maybe it's time to do that. Stock manifolds...0 gain.

TAF...Shortie FMC headers, Reinhart 2.5 OD exhaust pipe with high flow cats and X-pipe, 18" Magnaflows, OEM from there back.
15 RWHP, 10 RWTQ.

ME...Reinhart polished Cobra manifolds, Reinhart 2.5 OD exhaust pipe, high flow cats, X-pipe, 18" Magnaflows, OEM tail pipes, Wes Chain tips.
Before: 411 RWHP, 381 RWTQ. (at home dyno)
After: 441 RWHP, 398 RWTQ. (ATL dyno)

Before you say "but you're supercharged," I have clear before and after dynos documenting this one mod. I don't believe being supercharged has all that much to do with the gain. N/A applications can expect gains somewhere between TAF's and my results, but no less. Accepting that the total cost of this mod is under 1300 bucks when NOT on sale, I'd say the best bang for the buck is obvious.

The Kook's headers are not full length, call them mid length, or 3/4 length maybe, but they are not full length headers. They are available in two diameters, which will have some impact on performance, buyers should be more aware of this. Wrong size tubes on the wrong car, and you could be very disappointed.

Full length headers have been tested on my MM by Kenny Brown while it was in it's design stages. Full length headers from Hooker lost power. After supercharging, they offered a minimal gain that did not support their 1500 dollar cost, and the car went to production with the full OEM exhaust in place. Sean Hyland sells full length headers boasting of a 25 RWHP gain, however, Hyland's testing was conducted on his 5.2 Stroker build, not a bone stock MM engine. With his 1500 dollar cost, value is debatable, yes? All of this was over a year ago, and there have been a lot of discoveries since then.

These are facts, Billy, explored and proven some time ago. I agree that TAF's statement is incorrect, and I mean no offense to TAF in correcting it here.

However, as you ask TAF questions, Billy, you make likewise bold statements. Where is your "before and after" dyno reports? Didn't do the before? Okay, but how about the after, we can backward calculate from there. Show us what YOU have gained from YOUR Kooks install?

You can rest on Logan's laurels, or, you can show us all something we haven't seen yet. Post that or not, at least get your own numbers, please? A lot of us are waiting to hear more about how the Kooks perform in the wild, and if you can prove 50 RWHP and 35 RWTQ from JUST a Kook's headers & kit, not only will I convert over to them, I'll pay for yours.

So, there's your challenge, Billy. Go pay for a dyno from a legit shop, your 125 dollar investment may earn you a 1500 dollar refund.

The truth must prevail, eh?

Sergntmac@aol.com
312.745.5207

[TripleG]

Hi all. Well I having the following system installed next week.

Coated cobra manifold, X Pipe (from Dennis) , Dynomax 20" mufflers and stock there after.

The place I'm having this done has a dyno and i think I weill invest to see what horse Power the car has after the install

Happy Holidays.

[TAF]

Originally posted by BillyGman
TAF, maybe I'm missing something here, but I didn't see any of your "Proof" that shorty headers produce more power than the Kook's long tube headers do. It's my understanding that Logan's car gained 50 HP from the Kook's exhaust. So I don't understand the reasoning for your statements.

You can find the Dyno numbers and a complete description of the gains here...CLICK HERE (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5946&highlight=shes+back)


Originally posted by SergntMac
I've had about enough of this "header" pizzing contest, time to set the record straight. No offense to anyone intended.



Maybe TAF hasn't posted his proof,

TAF...Shortie FMC headers, Reinhart 2.5 OD exhaust pipe with high flow cats and X-pipe, 18" Magnaflows, OEM from there back.
15 RWHP, 10 RWTQ.



Mac is right in his post, however he is missing some "411" in the above.

Stock exhaust = 268.9 RWHP 294.8 RWTQ
Shorties/X-pipe/hi-flow cats = 283.1 RWHP 309 RWTQ
Cat-back system changes including 2 1/2" pipes from Dennis' X-pipe to new 18" stainless Magnaflow mufflers = 289.9 RWHP 316.5 RWTQ

That's a RWHP & RWTQ increase from Dennis' exhaust of 21 RWHP and 21.7 RWTQ

Now...will the manifolds get you 5-7 RWHP more? Yes...Sarge proved that. I state in my post above I went with the shorties for aesthetic reasons...I like the way they look better than the manifolds...My car...my choice.

I've searched and searched and searched...and I can't find ANYWHERE on this site a dyno sheet showing a 50 RWHP gain or 35 RWTQ gain from ANYONE else...you find it...you let me know Billy.

All I know is when I mentioned these numbers to some very knowledgeable people (with names most here would recognize) and they laughed.

I've posted the proof Billy...I've referred to it several times in several posts. Not just to debunk what I think are bogus claims on other's part. But to hopefully help folks that want to know what ACTUAL gains they'll get out of mods on EACH step. Where's your before and after on your 4.56 gears Billy...I've never seen them.

Get me kicked off the site if you wish...I'm just trying to be helpful to others like I always have. You buy from Dennis...I get NOTHING. My interest is sharing what I've found to be fact. And the FACT is...I have the most powerful N/A Marauder going with ALL performance items by Dennis Reinhart. The facts are the facts. I've posted my "proof"...let's see any other "proof" that would state anything else. If it shows anything different than what I suspect...then I'll apologize. Until then...mines posted.

[SergntMac]

Thanks for correcting my error TAF, I read the wrong post. I apologize.

[TAF]

No problem, my friend.:up:

[new car buyer]

i am thinking about buying a MM. i think i read somewhere that they are turbo charged. can someone tell me if that is true, and exactly what turbo charged is?

thanks for the info

[TAF]

Originally posted by new car buyer
i am thinking about buying a MM. i think i read somewhere that they are turbo charged. can someone tell me if that is true, and exactly what turbo charged is?

thanks for the info

No...they come normally aspirated. But...they are the best thing out of Detroit in years. Drive it...you'll like it.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Here is my take on all this The kooks headers are great, so is my design. do the Kooks give a 50 HP gain on a N/A car absolutely not, NIETHER DO MINE, right now most of us are in the high 268 RWHP gain, this is plugs stat gears and my exhaust, and some have UDP and the PI does my exhaust give a 50 HP gain NO, I have never seen any ones exhaust give a 50 HP on a N/A car on a blown car I have seen substantial gains, with Mid length or LTH but again that is dependent on the car, its not about who's is better its what you want to do with the car, I bet if Logan did a run without the Kooks after His blower install and then had them put back on he would or should see real good gains, Mac seen 23 RWHP on his KB car, I have seen blown 02 GT's gain very little with LTH so again lets not start a riot lets approach this logically, take a look at the car before and after, the install and compare the numbers if a N/A Marauder gained 50 RWHP with all the other mods the car would be over 300 RWHP so far I have not seen any but Todd Fishers car is the closest.

[Haggis]

Originally posted by TripleG
Hi all. Well I having the following system installed next week.

Coated cobra manifold, X Pipe (from Dennis) , Dynomax 20" mufflers and stock there after.

The place I'm having this done has a dyno and i think I weill invest to see what horse Power the car has after the install

Happy Holidays.

Alright George, :up: way to go!!

Congrats on the up grade, your going to love the new power.
Are you sure your name is not Clark Kent?

From Dr. Jekly to Mr. Hyde. http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/s/saevilw.gif

[Ross]

OK, there seems to be some disagreement over whether the Kook's system will give an extra 50 RWHP. Some say that it just can't do that. I believe that the origin of this 50 HP number came from the post by Logan when he first put on Kook's and showed us his dyno sheets.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5053&highlight=kooks+logan

Those dyno sheets and Logan's post show about 50 extra HP at 6000 RPM. No, Logan did not clain that increase across the board, or at the low end, but the dyno sheets are there for all to see.
Now I don't (yet) have an aftermarket exhaust, so I can't speak from experience. However, when someone posts a dyno sheet, that says a lot to me. If someone has reason to doubt the accuracy of those dyno results, I want to hear it so that I can be informed. Until then, I will have to take the dyno results at face value.
I,too, wish that we had more dyno results to look at like Sarge suggests. Not just from Kook's cars, but from Dennis' shorties, Dennis' ported manifold, and anything else that is out there. Anyone can get an unusual (high or low) result from a particular mod, but it is repeatability that really gets my attention. More dyno sheets would give us more evidence (or not) of repeatabilty of different mods.
Having said that, we have to realize that some of us live near good shops with dynos, and some don't. Also, some of us are more willing, or able, to spend the money on repeated dyno runs over time. I doubt that we will ever see all of the dyno results that we would like to see.
My point is, if there is a question of this "magic" number of 50 extra HP, we have Logan's proven results, at least at high RPM. Is there any reason I'm not aware of to question these results?

Just my .02.

[TAF]

Ross,

I'm not trying to get into a "mud-slinging" match with you or anyone else here. But...feel free to look at my Dyno sheet (link posted above) and you'll see greater than 50 RWHP at 6K RPMs.

What you will also see is the highest RWHP & RWTQ posted by anyone with a N/A Marauder. I'm not saying the KOOKs set-up is bad. I postedthat I spoke with Nick at KOOK's, he was very nice and informative, but I decided to go in another direction which I felt (and proved) to be right for my application. Net/Net...where the RWHP and the RWTQ REALLY matters...there is not much if any superiority in a mid-length or long-tube headers on a N/A Marauder. I'm just tired of hearing it's superior...in my opinion...it's not. And I don't want folks who, like you admit, DON'T have access to the best wrenches and tuners in the World right now on this car being mislead. I am fortunate enough to have access to the best Ford wrenches around...and they ALL say I made the right decision for my car and how I use it.

[Ross]

Todd, I too don't want this to be a remake of some of the unpleasant exchanges that we have seen in some threads in the past. I'm just questioning what some people were saying about the fact that these exhausts can't make the 50 extra RWHP as claimed.
Sarge offered to pay for Billy's exhaust if Billy could get 50HP.
Dennis said that the Kook's "absolutely" wouldn't give 50 HP.

I don't understand those posts (probably due to my own ignorance, which I am here to correct), in light of Logan's posted numbers.

If I have misread something, or I am misinterpreting dyno sheets, let me know. I readily admit that I am one of the least knowlegeable people on this board, I just read what is posted, and I am confused when someone says that something CAN'T be done, when it already has been. I want to be educated like a lot of folks here, especially since I am using this information to help me make my decision about spending what is, to me, a lot of money.

[SergntMac]

Ross...You may be misunderstanding dyno reports in general, but please don't any of y'all misunderstand my posts. I present no hostility here towards anyone. This is a discussion, now with a challenge attached to it.

Ross...RWHP and RWTQ define power at the rear wheels, and the numbers represent the average of the measurement over the complete dyno pull. A RWHP number is the most accurate number you'll get from a dyno, and the most helpful in diagnosing/troubleshooting/developing a performance automobile.

Peak numbers are meaningless, they tell you nothing baout the pull, other that it stopped right here. It's one split second of power that occurs at the end of the pull, either when the rollers kick down at the dialed-in RPM, or, the engine is about to hit it's limiter.

[BillyGman]

to clear some things up here, but judging by the type of responses and attitudes I'm getting from TAF and MAC, that might be humanly impossible.
I agree w/Ross on this, and I appreciate his approach. MAC, and TAF are both reacting as if they have something to lose if people were to decide to buy the Kook's exhaust system.
TAF, and MAC, I simply posed a question here, that's all. I wasn't trying to challenge you, nor was I being saracastic. And both of you come at me w/a personal attack. I think that both of you are capable of more than that, and the intensisty of your responses to me wasn't even neccessary, which leads me to believe you both have some type of stakes in all of this.
MAC, I will bring up the fact that your car is S/C'd because I happen to believe that going to a bigger exhaust system on any S/C'd car will always yield more of a HP gain than a NON-supercharged car since the S/Cer is actually pushing compressed air into the cyclinders. So I guess we will have to leave that issue alone since we will obviously continue to disagree on that.
TAF, I apologize to you if I've offended you. I really meant absolutely no sarcasm in my last post at all. I was asking a sincere question, and you come at me w/things about my car that are totally unrelated to this thread such as your statement about the 4.56 gear I have installed in my car. If you don't approve of the gear choice that I've made, then I'm afraid that's too bad. I don't have to get your approval on that. I don't ever remember telling anyone else that they would be making a mistake by going w/any other gears than the 4.56's that I have. So I don't see any need for you to bring that up other than it being an overreaction on your part. I installed the Kook's headers on my car, because I sincerely believed that I'd get the best gains from them, and I was just a bit confused when you were saying that long tube headers will not give the best gains. That's all. I was just asking you a sincere question, and then you and MAC freaked out on me. What's up w/you guys? I thought that we all are on the same side here. if you want to flip out on someone, then go talk to the ricers. I've NEVER written on this board that it is wrong or inferior to use re-worked exhaust manifolds, and I think the only reasonable responses in this entire thread so far have come from Dennis, and Ross.
BTW, TAF, as far as the gears I've installed in my MM, it was I who came out on this board complaining about how the 4.10 gears in my car made absolutely NO difference from the 3.55's and I was seeking an answer as to why. And so where were you when everyone was blasting me about that? Instead of arguing w/me now about my 4.56 gear choice, why didn't you help me out when I didn't get any results w/the 4.10 gears? And so that's why I went to the 4.56's. It was due to lack of results from the 4.10's. And I'm the only one here who has actually tried the 4.10 gear by themselves w/out any other mods. I put the 4.10 gear in the car myself BEFORE I even put the chip in. And I clearly stated that in my writings on this board back then, so lets not dig all of that up again, Eh?

[frdwrnch]

Wow! I didn't mean to stir the pot here, I was seeking clarification on available headers to see if the "mid-length" were a new product. However this thread has lumped together a lot of info that was previously posted on different threads and I think it will assist some in making an informed decission on their exhaust mods. My dyno numbers are almost exactly what TAF has before exhaust. I'll probably get my exhaust done in Feb. or March (still paying for Baer brakes) and will gladly post my results and component list. Thanks everyone for their info.

[Ross]

Sarge, as usual I respect your knowledge and experience, and I have learned as much from you as from anyone on this board. I once again ask for your help, then.
I understand what you are saying about "peak" numbers. As I understand it, those don't mean much because they are not "sustainable" numbers (for lack of a better term). Where, then, on the dyno graph, do we look to find the number which we can accurately point to as being a solid number for whatever claims we might want to make for an increase in HP? My prior lack of exposure to dyno sheets is showing here, but I am a willing student and ready to learn!
BTW, Sarge, you will always be welcome to my Shiner Bock Beer when we get together.

[SergntMac]

Theres' no personal attack going on here, Billy, and if all you got out my post was that I "freaked out," I am disappointed. It's a bet, take it or not, that's all.

Seems cannot address you in the manner you address others. You can ask other for "proof" but no one can ask you to for that.

My number's posted, if you feel offended, you're welcome to call and we'll discuss it.

My bet stands.

[Macon Marauder]

Guys, I have to admit I'm confused too, now. When Logan first posted his dyno results from the Kook's I didn't understand the "50 HP" gain either. I latched onto the 29 HP gain - which made more sense to me at the time.

Thought I remembered Todd gaining more than 20 HP and hitting just over 290 at the dynotune last month (could be mistaken).

So I figured Logan gained about 29 HP on his car and Todd gained about 21 on his car - your mileage may vary.

That "magic 50" number that keeps popping up: gotta be apples and oranges, right?

It all seems so complicated now...

[TAF]

First of all...I have NOTHING...and I repeat NOTHING to gain from ANYONe here doing business with Dennis Reinhart. I have NEVER received nything for free from him...nor have I ever asked. So whether you buy from Dennis or KOOKs or Sean Hyland...means NOTHING to me financially.

However...personally...I have been very open with what I've done to my car to what in my mind results in improving the driving experiance. I'm not building a "1/4 mile killer" here...and I've stated that many times.

Billy...I posted this...

Originally posted by TAF
I think the KOOKs are considered "mid-length". I think everyone assumes mid/long length are the best for our application due to that's what folks have thought for years on the Mustangs.

I personally don't subscribe to this notion. The shorties from Dennis is what I'd recommend to everyone. And I've got dyno numbers to prove it.

Which was my opinion...AND what I have investigated and researched with some of the top Ford wrenches and tuners in the biz.

You replied with this...


Originally posted by BillyGman
TAF, maybe I'm missing something here, but I didn't see any of your "Proof" that shorty headers produce more power than the Kook's long tube headers do. It's my understanding that Logan's car gained 50 HP from the Kook's exhaust. So I don't understand the reasoning for your statements.

Billy...my "proof" is ALL over this board. My reason for mentioning your 4.56 (which BTW I could give a :censor: about that decision) is you went through gears like tissues with NO Dyno...NO guidance from anyone who would know...NOTHING but your "seat of the pants" meter. Fine...your car...do with it what you want.

EVERYTHING I have done to my car has been documented, tested, Dyno'd...etc. As well, I've offered my own "seat of the pants" feel.

My problem is you are involved with 3-4 threads here expounding on all the HP you get with the KOOKs system. Where's the proof? You ask me...I in turn ask you. I see a Dyno sheet posted by Logan which shows roughly 29 RWHP and 15 RWTQ as a before and after. I post a similar Dyno showing 21 RWHP and almost 22 RWTQ before/after installing Dennis' shorties. I even yeild to the fact that I went with the shorties over the manifolds knowing I would probably give up 5-7 RWHP...my car...my choice.

If you'd also look closely at my dyno-sheets...you'd see at the acclaimed reading of 5200 and 6000 RPMs...I meet or exceed the posted 50 RWHP and 35 RWTQ on my sheets. But I don't claim that...I just show a Dyno-sheet which shows the ACTUAL incremental gains on the same Dyno...over a several day period with NO real fluctuation in Temp./Conditions etc.

You get in your car with a handhel g-tech device and expound on gaining 1/2 second in the quarter mile. Did I come at that...no. what I DO question is the pperceived assumption of fact that bolting on a KOOKs header system/X-pipe will give you 50 RWHP "nuff said". I can tell you that every knowledgeable individual that I've spoken with says that THAT statement is BUNK.

'Nuff said!!!

[BillyGman]

I don't even pay any attention to statements like "I'll pay for your headers" cuz I know that isn't going to happen. That's typical salesmen talk, and I know that no matter what I come up with, you're going to twist it so you don't have to pay for anything. If you want to ask me an intelligent question w/out all the drama, then I'll be more than willing to answer you w/respect that you deserve as a fellow board member, but you and TAF are just way out of line here. I've been wanting to go to the dyno lately, but if I do, then it will NOT be to win some kind of argument w/you or TAF, or to try to prove anyone wrong. That's not my style, and if you think that it is, then I'm sorry that you have gotten the wrong impression of me. If I do make it to the dyno, then I'll post the numbers even if they aren't what I hope for just like I posted my failures to get my car to move faster by installing the 4.10 gears back when. I'm not afraid to hide anything. So I don't even accept any of your challenges, because I'm under no obligation to prove anything to you. I just don't understand all of this manipulations of dyno #'s. If LOGAN's car increased HP by 50, then what's the big deal? Why can't you just admit that? You talk about it being way up top, and how that doesn't mean anything, well in that case then why should it mean anything when the car manufacture list a 302 HP # for the stock Marauder as opposed to a 239HP rating of a stock Crown Vic w/the performance package? And for that matter why should any of us list peak HP that we get from the Dyno? After all peak HP and/or peak TQ aren't gonna be down low in the RPM range. So I don't see why you and TAF are soooo desperate to prove me or LOGAN or anyone wrong. I just want to get to the truth myself by asking some questions, and help others to find the truth if I can along the way. that's all. So don't insult me anymore w/your bets and challenges. K? Because that's what you have done. I thought that you and I could discuss things even if we don't agree on everything w/out all this hype being thrown around such as bets and statements of "I'll pay for your headers if..." Gimmie a break, uh?

[SergntMac]

what ever...

[BillyGman]

you've manipulated the sequence of my replies to you w/all of your quoting, but perhaps it wasn't intentional on your part. You said in one of your replies that you have the "Proof" to show that the exhaust system you've installed makes more HP than the Kook's system does, and I clicked on that link that you've provided and didn't see any of that evidence at all as compared to the Dyno charts that LOGAN has posted. So that's why I said to you that "Maybe I'm missing something". That's all my friend. And perhaps you took my statement as sarcasm but it really wasn't. Okay? I just asked for an answer. I didn't ask for all of this. No I didn't use the Dyno for before and after for the gear changes because you cannot use the Dyno to measure the results of gear changes since gear changes will give acceleration increases w/out a HP increase. Yes I could've went to the track before and after I did the two gear changes that I have, but because there isn't even a track in my homestate, i didn't do that. So that G-meter is all I had. Sorry. But if you think that I went through gear changes "Like paper" then hey, if performing two gear changes doesn't sit right w/you, then I don't have to defend that, and I don't regret doing them either. Maybe we should just let all of this go, because you and MAC are just getting too huffy about this whole thing. I was just asking a simple question. That's all. Say what you want, but I don't care for your approach in this thread, and I didn't think that I've done or said anything to you guys to merit this exchange. So say what you want, but I'm done w/this thread as of right now, because this type of thread isn't good for the board anyway......

[TAF]

Well...let's see if you're done...

might as well as this thread will go down in flames soon...

I didn't manipulate any quotes...I posted the actual quotes in the actual sequence. Read them again, Billy.

Then...pull up Logan's Dyno and my Dyno...looks to me Billy like I can claim 50+RWHP at 6000 RPMs...doesn't it? But no...I did a VERY detailed post explaining the INCREMENTAL RWHP & RWTQ.

YOU...on the otherhand have taken as the "gospel" that the KOOKs will give you 50 RWHP...well Billy...as P.T. Barnum said...

My motivation is giving the facts...let others decide their own path...but to have you in 3-4 threads expounding on the KOOKs system being the "best for our cars" and you've got NOTHING but a misreported Dyno sheet to claim as the proof...bothers me.

My proof is there...been there...and is open for ALL to see...no interpretations....just the facts.

[Mikeenh]

And the winner is.....http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/e/flamethrower.gif http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/e/bigun.gif http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/0/newsaw.gif http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/0/pengydie.gif

[SergntMac]

Ross...Sorry I missed your question, I was ducking a cream pie.

The dyno software will produce the RW numbers for you. Look at any legit dyno graph, and you'll see "power" and "torque" listed somewhere in the graph. You can also ask for a column print, which will take a few pages, but it prints out in columns and rows, your HP and TQ by seconds, and RPM.

This is where the interesting tidbits of a dyno report are found. It's interesting to see how making a minor change, let's say adding Denso plugs, can increase your HP and TQ at step at a time, and where the steps are taken. It's also useful to detect bogging, slipping and heasitation, things you may not see on a chart, or feel from the driver's seat.

[Zack]

My Turn.
I cant accurately judge the Kooks headers because I dont have them on my car, nor have I installed them. I do know they are loud inside the car and take forever to install, big deal to a racer.
I do know that Dennis's kit makes power, is quiet and I installed the last kit in Mark (MarauderBoy's) car in an hour and a half on a creeper.
But thats all irrelevant here, so I can sum this foolish argument up for all to hear. Now listen closely.....

YOU GAIN 50 RWHP FROM KOOKS HEADERS IN CONJUNCTION WITH AN AFTERMARKET CHIP OR DYNO TUNE. NO WAY ON GOD"S GREEN EARTH DO THEY MAKE THAT POWER ON A BONE STOCK CAR. Does that make sense?
My car went fromm 233rwhp to 279rwhp after a chip and Shortie headers and high flow cats. 46 rwhp gain. Id say both vendors are equally matched, or our motors just peak out with certain levels of power adders, either way you look at it.

The prrof will come when a Kooks kit is bolted to a supercharged engine.

[Agent M79]

Hey... I gotta claim ignorance here and I've been curious about this stuff too.

I understand that there are 2 figures being tossed about being derived from one chart. Understand, I am going to ask this from a position of inexperience and I can't find words to ask this that may not seem "charged" or "biased" but here it is:

Can some pleeeeze put both Logan's and TAF's charts up and circle in BLUE the "real" gains (I am reading as 20-30RWHP) and then circle in RED the "unreal" gains (I am reading as 50 or more RWHP)?

That would make it simple enough for my simple mind.

[jgc61sr2002]

Originally posted by new car buyer
i am thinking about buying a MM. i think i read somewhere that they are turbo charged. can someone tell me if that is true, and exactly what turbo charged is?

thanks for the info new car buyer - Welcome to the MM site. As Todd stated" the MM is NOT turbo charged". Take one out for a test drive and you will be hooked. Good luck on your purchase.:D :up:

[Marauderman]

I can see where alot of us can get misunderstood on all of this --since this is a one -way dementational message board--but I think what each has said is:

1. adding exhaust mods gain more HP
2. mine gain this much- (with ref post from before and after)
3 if one has spoke about a gain and not posted before and after-- then do so !
4. no one has said ther's is better than anothers per say, but rather if you saw so --show it --in some form for all to get "feelk" of what you mean...

Well, my close .02 review anyway--

It really comes down to --don't talk it from the feel of the seat or whatever----just show it from test results--then we'll take about it--

Somewhat like me talking about my S/C and what it will do havinf read of what others similiar will do but not having tested it to really know ( and this is what is the keyy--cuz each car IS different no matter what) it's TRUE performance from such a particular instal--

That is it--install a mod--do a cedrtified test and there you have a point to reference and to which to talk from and can go from there on to the next and the next---

Gee- I was hopeing to keep this a small reply--oh well--- maybe this has helped----

[Marauderman]

PS-- -My spell check failed me again--fooey!!

[SergntMac]

LOL...Yeah...Thanks, ------John. Where are my manners?

New Car Buyer drops in to say hello, and finds himself in the middle of a bar fight....heyDUCK! Whew...

Ummm..."Welcome" (cough) New Car Buyer. Welcome to MM owner hea(cough)ven.

You brought your collective angst with you, yes? You're over that "bigger is better" thingy, right? Good. Because I have one word (cough) of advice for you New Car Buyer..."Paragraph."

Remember your elementary english lessons (cough), K? "Sentence construction, salutation, body" and and so forth?

That won't mean dick in your argument(cough) here, but it helps us all grasp exactly what you are baying about while you stare at the moon...

Marauderman...Tom, I hear ya, K? No worries, K?

[FordNut]

Obviously exhaust choices are a very personal subject. It would be very expensive and time consuming to do an exact comparison of headers/manifolds only. One complicating factor is that the flanges do not connect in a common position between the different systems.

The original comment/topic was mid-length headers ? The Kooks headers have approximately 20" primary tubes. Full length tubes should be about 34". The Kooks are probably as close as there will ever be to a full length header because they could not fit in the cats with longer tubes. There is simply no demand for a header that makes a brand new car into an off-road-only vehicle.

Theoretical discussion follows: The flow benefit of the ported/polished manifolds is simply that the passages are larger. They are (I believe I got this right from DR) Cobra manifolds which are ported/polished with an extrude hone process. They are then coated for better heat retention. This improves performance by keeping the gases hot while they have high velocity and by keeping heat out of the engine compartment. They do not bolt up to the OEM cats and exhaust system. They are replaced in conjunction with high flow cats and other larger pipes.

The shorties are similar in that the flow paths are larger. They are made with tubing instead of cast iron, so they are also lighter. The tubes basically dump into a large pipe and are too short to benefit from any scavenging effect. They do not bolt up to the OEM cats and exhaust system. They are also replaced in conjunction with high flow cats and other larger pipes. The flanges could possibly be in the same place as the manifolds since they are both Cobra-based parts. If so, this could be a good comparison if somebody wants to spend the time and $$$.

The long tube (or mid-length) headers supposedly improve the breathing by a scavenging effect. The high pressure exhaust gases create a wave front of high pressure followed by low pressure. If the length of the tubing is designed well enough, the low pressure will be at the exhaust valve when it opens the next time, helping the exhaust system to pull the spent gases out of the combustion chamber. It is also important to have equal length primaries from one cylinder to another. The Kook's are not equal length but they are pretty close. Since these tubes are about 20" long, the effect will be at slightly higher rpm than it would be with 34" tubes, but the effect is still there. The flanges do not connect to the OEM exhaust system and they are also installed in conjunction with high flow cats and other larger pipes. Sean Hyland headers were made by Kook's. They are one and the same.

As for chips, I don't know of anybody that has jumped into the expense of changing the exhaust system that hasn't already added a chip. If the exhaust system and chip were installed at the same time, that would not be a valid comparison to the system where the exhaust system was installed on a chipped car with before-and-after dyno runs.

Now I'll explain my approach: I had the mufflers and pipes changed, installing an x-pipe. I had the system custom designed to connect to the flanges on the OEM cats. I did before-and-after dyno runs and picked up between 4 and 5 hp. The most restrictive part of the system is about 1 ft of 2" tubing between the cats and the flanges. Next, I will have the Kook's headers and high flow cats installed, again with before-and-after dyno runs. Why the before? Because weather and numerous other factors can make a difference. That will tell me exactly what difference the headers and cats alone make. Now, for a disclaimer... Since I have already changed the mufflers, x-pipe, and mid-pipe with larger tubes I will most likely get different numbers than someone doing the same thing with the rest of the system left stock. I do still have my stock pipes and could put them back on for a test if anybody wants to foot the bill.

[Marauderman]

Originally posted by SergntMac
LOL...Yeah...Thanks, ------John.

"Welcome" New Car Buyer. Welcome to owner hell. You brought your collective angst, yes?

I have one word of advice for you New car Buyer..."Paragraph." Remember your english lessons, ya know..."Sentence construction, salutation, body" and and so forth?

It won't mean dick in your argument, but it helps us all to grasp what you are baying about while you stare at the moon...
Who the heck are you talking about--who is new car buyer--??

[Marauderman]

Ok I re-read it --should have been alittle slower on the draw---OK Sarge---- I get your point----enuff said--

[TAF]

Is this thing still on...? Hello? Hello Tokyo?:lol:

[BUCKWHEAT]

I want to buy headers & kit for my car. The variables seem to be 1) price, 2) ease of installation, 3) HP/torque gain and 4) looks & sound. Reading through the responses, and the holiday price posts, I conclude (for me): 1)price=advantage DR, 2) ease of installation=advantage DR, 3)performanc=it's a push, on the street where my car lives, 4) looks=both fine & sound, quieter (for me a +)=advantage DR. Am I missing anything???

[TAF]

Originally posted by BUCKWHEAT
3)performanc=it's a push, on the street where my car lives

No...you didn't miss anything...you just made the point I was trying to make in SEVERAL paragraphs in less than 10 words...

[cyclone03]

This is the greatest thread ever on this site.
The drama,the pain the happy ending.I got a tear in my eye........

So glad a botton holder didn't jump in and shut it down by page 2......

[Agent M79]

Sadly enough, I still need someone to draw me a picture... possibly in crayon. It could be PM'd or emailed to me if it would be thought to fan the flames? Can anyone help this feeb out? Hmm?

[RCSignals]

Talk about exhaust......the fumes in here are staggering

[martyo]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone considered which header set up would work best with which oil choice?

Oh, and another thing: Does anyone have any further information on the Alligator clips that Lidio and I both need?

[Agent M79]

Red Headers work best with massage oil, marty, and y'all wouldn't need alligator clips if ya'd just smoke from a pipe like the rest of us.

Another poster on this site requested a lead-in statement regarding the orgin and expertise level of statements made in posts, I comply by saying: I am not an expert. I am not a novice. My opinion is carries no weight of experience. That said, lets hold hands and jump in here.

Well. I've been left to my own devices and downloaded both charts. Unfortunately my comparative results are inconclusive because of the low quality of the image attachments.

One note here, Logan didn't say in the post with the chart that there was a 50HP gain, what he said was: "There's almost a 50hp spread on power at 6000rpm!!!" [note: my italics added, source thread is HERE. (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5053) ]

The combination of my Sherlock 2000 magnifying glass and my Watson 2000 micrometer indicate about an actual 45.8HP increase at the 6000RPM mark.

A second interesting observation is the run with the headers goes about 300RPM deeper than the measurement without them. I don't know what that means or if it is significant or not.

I have no idea what this adds to the debate but the only factual conclusion I can draw is 45.8RWHP is not 50.0RWHP.

So the post I read with the chart that said "almost 50hp" gained is fine because of the "almost". Any other representation of a factual and definitive increase of 50RWHP any where else would be wrong by 4.2RWHP.

So, frdwrnch, I don't know anything about mid-length headers or who supplies then. I also am not any closer to knowing if I can interpret dynocharts properly. And I for sure do not know if a 4.2RWHP figure is small enough to consider "slop" when stating fact.

[Logan]

Holy crap. How did I miss this thread?! The good news is, for the most part it's relatively civil.

Now, You've all obviously seen my original post on my exhaust numbers, and in this thread I'm damn near called a liar for crying out loud.

First let me say, I don't CARE what you do. Dennis's exhaust options are great, just weren't my style, Kook's is great too. Point here, do what's going to make you happy!!! But don't be calling into question my posted dyno results, I was there, I saw it happen and I have records to back it up!!!

That being said, it sound like everyone got all confused as to what I posted, though I don't know how the hell that happened.

My pre-kook's install dyno was 256.3rwhp and 278.6rwtq. That's with a Reinhart chip, stat and plugs.

My post-kook's install dyno was 285.7rwhp and 293.5rwtq. That's with a Reinhart chip, stat, plugs and Kook's exhaust.

Simple math says that's a PEAK, incremental improvement of 29rwhp and 15rwtq for the Kook's

Are ya still with me so far?! Good.

See now here's the thing, I didn't think that the improvement in peak numbers was what was interesting here.

Interesting point A

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat, plugs and a STOCK exhaust made 235rwhp at 6000rpm.

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat and plugs and a KOOK's exhaust made 285rwhp at 6000rpm.

Hence, an IMPROVEMENT of 50rwhp. Get it?! FIFTY REAR WHEEL HORSE POWER THAT WAS NOT THERE PRIOR TO THE KOOK'S INSTALL!

Interesting point B

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat, plugs and a STOCK exhaust made 255rwtq at 5200rpm.

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat and plugs and a KOOK's exhaust made 290rwtq at 5200rpm.

Hence an IMPROVEMENT of 35rwtq. Again, do we all get it now?! THIRTY FIVE REAR WHEEL TORQUE THAT WAS NOT THERE PRIOR TO THE KOOK'S INSTALL!

So, like sarge says, Peak numbers don't mean jack crap which is why I didn't bother with them. What I concentrated on was the fact that the stock marauder exhaust absolutely blows chunks past 5200rpm and destroys the performance on marauder.

Open it up and see the results!! I don't care if it's Reinhart's exhaust or Kook's, you'll see similar power improvements by uncorking the exhaust!

Now, all that being said I can't explain myself any clearer, so stop calling me a damn liar and go install your exhaust systems dammit!!! :D :pimp:

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=513/1dyno.jpg

[martyo]

But what about the Alligator clips Lidio and I need?????

[Logan]

I'll get you the part number Marty, I've got my little baggy around here somewhere's...

[martyo]

Excellent! Thanks!!

[TAF]

Originally posted by Logan
Holy crap. How did I miss this thread?!

'Cause we kept hiding it with that new feature that when you hit "New Posts'...not all the "New Posts" come up...:lol:

What's up with that anyways? Tell me if it's just me or the "cookie" function (which is what I'm guessing remembers what New posts you've had before and which responses are read)...seems a little squirrelly the last week or so...:confused:

[RCSignals]

It's just you Todd :)

[Dennis Reinhart]

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat, plugs and a STOCK exhaust made 235rwhp at 6000rpm.

I am totally confused here, someone help me out. Logan you are saying at 6000 RPM with my stage one you made 5 RWHP more than stock, the car bone stock makes about 233 RWHP every one on this site that has done a stage one has made close to or over 23 RWHP and 30 foot pounds of torque, so lets add that up 233 + 23 = 256 RWHP lots of us are coming in at that # and some are higher, so if you are getting a 50 RWHP gain with the headers alone you would have to be over 300 RWHP, or my chip is not working in your car, so again I am not saying any thing about the headers its the math I am totally confused about. I am just totally confused at how there is a 50 RWHP gain with headers as far as I know its not happened on any N/A basically bone stock 4.6 SOHC or DOHC I did mid lengths on a Mach 1 and a chip stat and plugs it gained about 25 RWHP, I am not trying to be argumentative, in any way shape or form, if the members here only got a 5 RWHP gain with my stage one I would have taken to the woods and shot at ENNIS, so again I agree with you. Lets have a good holiday buy from who ever your heart desires and lets put this to rest its been going full circle for days now.

[frdwrnch]

Man, I feel like I shook the pillars of hell ! But thanks again for the info guys.

[Logan]

I am totally confused here, someone help me out. Logan you are saying at 6000 RPM with my stage one you made 5 RWHP more than stock, the car bone stock makes about 233 RWHP every one on this site that has done a stage one has made close to or over 23 RWHP and 30 foot pounds of torque


You're just misunderstanding what you're reading. My peak Stage 1 with stock exhaust power is 256.3rwhp, not 235. My peak power with stage 1 and stock exhaust is at 5400rpm. at 6000rpm the same setup produces 235rwhp due to the restrictive exhaust.

Overall, the stage 1 makes 23rwhp and 30ft/lbs over stock, same as on my car! You see MY PEAK stage one number right there on the chart is 256.3... The stage one, with stock exhaust makes its peak power at like 5400rpm, NOT 6000rpm, which is where I'm making the power comparison.

BECAUSE, with the Kook's exhaust, the PEAK power is being made at 6000rpm. With the STOCK exhaust, the peak power is made at 5400rpm.

So, my POINT here is, that because the Kook's exhaust took the cork out of my cars ass, The chip is able to make power through a much broader rpm range, as is clearly shown by the graph.

On a stock exhaust system, the chip isn't able to produce any appreciable power gains at 6000rpm, due to the severe exhaust restrictions. But damn!! Uncork the exhaust and look at the difference!!! Same car, same chip/stat/plugs, but with an uncorked exhaust.

Is anyone else getting what the heck I'm saying here?!

Study the graph, this is plain as day no? Notice how the gap between the pretty power lines gets really wide above 5200rpm?

[cyclone03]

Hey Logan,
I GOT it when the dyno chart went up the first time.
My Dyno chart on my car stops at 5500 rpm because the power was falling off fast.

The question that still is floating around in my head is,is there more power with TUNING above 6000rpm?Torque converter change then run the R's up above the 6200rpm cut off.
Remember our base engine runs in the Mach 1 stick cars to 7000rpm.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Logan I posted what you stated verbatem I will not debate this any further, all I will say is you are wrong, KOOKS headers nor my exhaust will give a 50 RWHP gain, on a N/A car that has been the total debate /discusion over this whole fiasco. I am done.

[BillyGman]

going to add anymore to this thread, but I feel somewhat responsible for this whole merry-go-round in this thread since I was the one who originaly questioned TAF about his statements. First let me tell everyone, that TAF and I have exchanged several PM's since we locked horns in this thread, and we made peace. I also apologized to him for the way I worded my original post in here. Perhaps it came across as arrogance, or sarcasm on my part, and that's NOT what I intended at all. So me and TAF are all cool w/this whole thing. That might not neccessarily mean that we see eye to eye completely on this exhaust thing, just like Dennis, and Logan probably aren't going to see eye to eye on this either. But we don't always have to agree on everything either. Please let me make a suggestion here if I may. Maybe we should all just let this whole thing rest, and let the dyno charts speak for themselves. Okay? I write this w/absolutely no sarcasm or condecsending tone intended towards anyone. I think that both Dennis and Logan have offered some interesting, and thought provoking viewpoints, and I'd hate for you two guys to start going at it like TAF, MAC, and I did in this thread before. It just isn't worth it. And I know that all of you guys are here to help eachother just as I am too. So let's just put this thread to rest, because everyone has already shared their viewpoints on this, and we sliced it and diced it just about every way that you can. I guess we should just say that who ever decides to spend their money on an exhaust upgrade, will have to decide for themselves on which way to go. But weather they go w/Kook's, exhaust, or w/Dennis Reinhart's exhaust, their Marauder WILL be faster, on the street, as well as at the track, and it WILL make more HP & Torque as shown on the Dyno. Sound good guys?

[SergntMac]

Bravo! A winning post, Billy, it works for me.

[TAF]

Well said Billy!

Now...back to picking on Marty & RF....

[Logan]

Originally posted by Dennis Reinhart
Logan I posted what you stated verbatem I will not debate this any further, all I will say is you are wrong, KOOKS headers nor my exhaust will give a 50 RWHP gain, on a N/A car that has been the total debate /discusion over this whole fiasco. I am done.

Sigh... I give up. The dyno sheet's do all the talking for me.

I'm quite sure Todd's sheet's show the same differential.

[Ross]

In spite of some seemingly less than friendly posts (which were probably unintentional), there HAS been some good info posted in this thread, and I have continued to learn by following the various posts. I ain't through learnin' yet.

[Haggis]

...for not closing this thread, even though there was a lot of misunderstsnding going and quite abit of arguing. I don't think it ever came to any blows being thrown.

I still have the stock exhaust system on my car and want to up-grade it come spring time. Mac and I have talk about the DR exhaust and I still would like to learn more about it and other mods for my car. I have also read other good things about it from other members here.
I have also read some good things about the Kooks system here and have been following this thread carefully to learn what I can. They both appear to be good exhaust systems for the Marauder it just seems to be what you perfer for your car.
I would like to increase my RWHP and RWTQ and would love to have a deeper tone to my exhaust without it being too loud in the cabin.

Thank you to everyone here who contributed to my education, please keep up the good work.

[BillyGman]

TAF, MAC, and I have all communicated w/eachother about this thread, and everything is back to normal now. And like MAC said himself to me over the phone, hopefully this was a learning experience for us all. So that way perhaps we can avoid this from happening again. my theory is that we should be able to disagree at times, and communicate our differences of opinion w/out getting angry w/one another.

I guess sometimes that can be challenging for most of us when we're communicating in writing since it's that much nore difficult to know when someone is just toying w/you, and when they're serious. But all is I can say, is that I'll speak for myself when I say the following: I'm learning.........hey, maybe that means this middle aged guy isn't all that old after all.:)

[BillyGman]

I believe that weather you go w/the Reinhart exhaust, or the Kook's exhaust, you'll be able to control the way the car sounds, and how loud it actually is simply by the mufflers that you choose. I have the 18" magnaflow straight-thru mufflers, and they're significantly louder than the stock mufflers IMO, however I don't think that they're annoying. I believe that both MAC, and TAF also have the same mufflers on their Marauders, and they both like them.

LOGAN has the 14" magnaflows, and from what I've heard, they are louder than the 18" ones as it's to be expected. But remember that magnaflow also makes 18" mufflers w/baffles in them too which ofcourse would be quieter than these straight-thru design ones are, but would also probably deliver less of a performance gain.;)

It's also my opinion that you probably won't be able to get a "deeper" exhaust note no matter what you do. Atleast not to a significant degree since this car simply has a very small V8 engine. It still has that V8 growl to it. And ofcourse you can make that louder, but it's never going to have a tone that's as deep as a larger displacement V8 engine can such as a 350 cubic inch engine. Remember that a 4.6L engine is merely 281 cubic inches.

[Haggis]

Thanks Gman, will keep that in mind. I am sure there will be more threads and posts on this subject before I am ready to up-grade my exhaust. I just don't want it too obnoxious inside the cabin. Hopefully I will get to hear them from the inside and outside of the car.

Thanks again,
Gordon

[BillyGman]

lives in Delaware, and I go there once in awhile to visit him for the weekend. I'm not sure when I'll be going there again, but if it turns out to be in the next several months, then I'll let you know if you care to meet somewhere near the Delaware/Maryland line so that you can hear my car. Just let me know via PM if you're interested in doing that, and that way I'll keep you in mind the next time I go there.

[Petyvo]

Holy crap. How did I miss this thread?! The good news is, for the most part it's relatively civil.

Now, You've all obviously seen my original post on my exhaust numbers, and in this thread I'm damn near called a liar for crying out loud.

First let me say, I don't CARE what you do. Dennis's exhaust options are great, just weren't my style, Kook's is great too. Point here, do what's going to make you happy!!! But don't be calling into question my posted dyno results, I was there, I saw it happen and I have records to back it up!!!

That being said, it sound like everyone got all confused as to what I posted, though I don't know how the hell that happened.

My pre-kook's install dyno was 256.3rwhp and 278.6rwtq. That's with a Reinhart chip, stat and plugs.

My post-kook's install dyno was 285.7rwhp and 293.5rwtq. That's with a Reinhart chip, stat, plugs and Kook's exhaust.

Simple math says that's a PEAK, incremental improvement of 29rwhp and 15rwtq for the Kook's

Are ya still with me so far?! Good.

See now here's the thing, I didn't think that the improvement in peak numbers was what was interesting here.

Interesting point A

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat, plugs and a STOCK exhaust made 235rwhp at 6000rpm.

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat and plugs and a KOOK's exhaust made 285rwhp at 6000rpm.

Hence, an IMPROVEMENT of 50rwhp. Get it?! FIFTY REAR WHEEL HORSE POWER THAT WAS NOT THERE PRIOR TO THE KOOK'S INSTALL!

Interesting point B

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat, plugs and a STOCK exhaust made 255rwtq at 5200rpm.

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat and plugs and a KOOK's exhaust made 290rwtq at 5200rpm.

Hence an IMPROVEMENT of 35rwtq. Again, do we all get it now?! THIRTY FIVE REAR WHEEL TORQUE THAT WAS NOT THERE PRIOR TO THE KOOK'S INSTALL!

So, like sarge says, Peak numbers don't mean jack crap which is why I didn't bother with them. What I concentrated on was the fact that the stock marauder exhaust absolutely blows chunks past 5200rpm and destroys the performance on marauder.

Open it up and see the results!! I don't care if it's Reinhart's exhaust or Kook's, you'll see similar power improvements by uncorking the exhaust!

Now, all that being said I can't explain myself any clearer, so stop calling me a damn liar and go install your exhaust systems dammit!!! :D :pimp:

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/watermark.php?file=513/1dyno.jpg... you've stated in above sections: "My pre-kook's install dyno was 256.3rwhp and 278.6rwtq. That's with a Reinhart chip, stat and plugs.

My post-kook's install dyno was 285.7rwhp and 293.5rwtq. That's with a Reinhart chip, stat, plugs and Kook's exhaust."

Thus, 285.7rwhp - 256.3rwhp = 29.4rwhp .... NOT 50rwhp.

... unless you can explain where the magical number of 235rwhp came
from.....
... as in your later statement -- below the original: "
MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat, plugs and a STOCK exhaust made 235rwhp at 6000rpm.

MY car, with Reinhart chip, stat and plugs and a KOOK's exhaust made 285rwhp at 6000rpm."

I wonder, should that be 235rwhp at 6000rpm WITHOUT any mods????

Thank you all.
Petyvo:banana2: :beer:

[Rider90]

Welcome Aboard, Petyvo.

[SergntMac]

Yawn....Up, yeah, what he said. Welcome...

[Bradley G]

Anyone dare to share real life Comparo in track gains?

The Fastest Marauder listed on our Marauder "Only" timeslips page is running with OEM exhaust.:banned:
Bradley G
OPPS ! Sorry ...., Welcome Aboard!

[jgc61sr2002]

Petyvo - Welcome to the MM site. :welcome: