Now, more than ever; time to buy a Ford

[SC Cheesehead]

By TOM KRISHER, AP Auto Writer Tom Krisher, Ap Auto Writer – Sun Sep 19, 8:10 pm ET
DETROIT – Investment bankers handling the upcoming General Motors Co. stock sale are expected to court foreign investors as well as those in North America, according to a U.S. Treasury Department statement.
GM and the Treasury Department would not comment Sunday on reports that the automaker is in talks with its current partner in China, SAIC, about buying a stake in the Detroit company. SAIC is owned by the Chinese government...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100920/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_ipo

Suck it up folks, looks like we've got a whole new crop of ricers in the works. :rolleyes:

[Egon Spengler]

I have lost all hope in America. It saddens me to drive by all these empty buildings of once successful companies that have gone under. Seems like I see a new vacant building every day. There is going to be nothing left with an America stamp on it.

[Bluerauder]

By TOM KRISHER, AP Auto Writer Tom Krisher, Ap Auto Writer – Sun Sep 19, 8:10 pm ET
DETROIT – Investment bankers handling the upcoming General Motors Co. stock sale are expected to court foreign investors as well as those in North America, according to a U.S. Treasury Department statement.
GM and the Treasury Department would not comment Sunday on reports that the automaker is in talks with its current partner in China, SAIC, about buying a stake in the Detroit company. SAIC is owned by the Chinese government...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100920/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_ipo

Suck it up folks, looks like we've got a whole new crop of ricers in the works. :rolleyes:

I certainly hope that this is not the same SAIC (Science Applications International Corp.) that provides technical, engineering and support services to the US Govt and to the Department of Defense. Its gotta be a different SAIC .... its gotta be. :rolleyes:

[SC Cheesehead]

I certainly hope that this is not the same SAIC (Science Applications International Corp.) that provides technical, engineering and support services to the US Govt and to the Department of Defense. Its gotta be a different SAIC .... its gotta be. :rolleyes:

Nope, different company, Charlie.

Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Automotive_Industry_C orporation

[Kennyrauder]

If only GM had continued to offer QUALITY automotive products like they did up to 1970 it would not have been in this mess. It really is too bad. Kenny.

[tbone]

If only GM had continued to offer QUALITY automotive products like they did up to 1970 it would not have been in this mess. It really is too bad. Kenny.

My '72 Cutlass and '76 Olds Custom Cruiser wagon were excellent cars. My '90 Firebird, '98 Blazer and '98 Montana were crap. Haven't bought a GM since, and never will. GM can go to hell and take the Chinese and the unions with them. Unions destroyed all American industry with their lust for money and power. Now there's only dust for them to feed on.:mad2:

[babbage]

Unions destroyed all American industry with their lust for money and power. Now there's only dust for them to feed on.:mad2:

Yep. $46.00/hr to run a drill press. I've seen UAW first hand. Obama has given the unions more power and protected them (right out of a job)

[ImpalaSlayer]

Yep. $46.00/hr to run a drill press. I've seen UAW first hand. Obama has given the unions more power and protected them (right out of a job)

46 bucks to run a drill press!!!!!!! is that serious?

[babbage]

46 bucks to run a drill press!!!!!!! is that serious?

and they did a poor job at it - didn't care, no desire, didn't try.

[ImpalaSlayer]

and they did a poor job at it - didn't care, no desire, didn't try.

thats ridiculous. even half that is unreal. isnt that whats called unskilled labor? thats like 95k a year, to stand there and drill holes.

[RF Overlord]

While lazy and greedy unions were half the problem, I've also seen some spectacularly bad decisions from management, so I think they both share the blame, just not sure what percentage to attribute to each side.

[SC Cheesehead]

While lazy and greedy unions were half the problem, I've also seen some spectacularly bad decisions from management, so I think they both share the blame, just not sure what percentage to attribute to each side.


^^^^^^^ True, that. ^^^^^^^

[guspech750]

Dont foreget unions brought you protection from greedy and ruthless employers (which are still around). Brought you weekends. 8 hour work days better benifets and pay. Holidays with pay and days off work without fear of losing your job. They brought us Labor laws that protect you from everything from unfair labor practices (if you needed to take a day off of work for health or family you risked getting fired) to job safety. Are you guys really going to blame working people for trying to achieve a peice of the American dream. If you go and ask for a raise and get it. Are you to blame? No. (You would be a liar if you never asked for or wanted more money for your hard work). The employer is for giving it to you. All of us would be crying little bitches working in the conditions of the past if it were not for the help of many unions. We have what we have today thanks to unions. Doesnt matter if its an office job or digging ditches. Im in the Operating Engineers Local 150 Union and I work my tail off. My company took a survey years ago asking us what we liked about Working for TSC. Guess what. They got rid of most of things we liked about our company with in weeks of that crummy survey. And guess what. Our shareholders wanted to join the union. It was not even our choice. I am glad we did because we got back what they took away from us and make better pay and benifets. Which helps living in the expensive Chicagoland area. Are there cons about being in a Union. Sure there is. More pros than cons but there are cons. Dont kid yourself thinking union labor is lazy. There are just as many lazy SOB's in the union as there are not in unions. Probably more not in the unions considering unions make up a small percentage of the American workforce. I can say I am proud that I am in the Union. I work hard foremost for me because I take pride in my work even before I was union. I work hard for my company to make them money and make a good name for them. And if it all works out I also help make my union look good too.

[tbone]

Dont foreget unions brought you protection from greedy and ruthless employers (which are still around). Brought you weekends. 8 hour work days better benifets and pay. Labor laws that protect you from everything from your job (if you needed to take a day off of work for health or family you risked getting fired) to job safety. Are you guys really going to blame working people for trying to achieve a peice of the American dream. If you go and ask for a raise and get it. Are you to blame? No. The employer is for giving it to you. All of us would be crying little bitches working in the conditions of the past if it were not for the help of many unions. We have what we have today thanks to unions. Doesnt matter if its an office job or digging ditches. Im in the Operating Engineers Local 150 Union and I work my tail off. My company took a survey years ago asking us what we liked about Working for TSC. Guess what. They got rid of most of things we liked about our company with in weeks of that crummy survey. And guess what. Our shareholders wanted to join the union. It was not even our choice. I am glad we did because we got back what they took away from us and make better pay and benifets. Which helps living in the expensive Chicagoland area. Are there cons about being in a Union. Sure there is. More pros than cons but there are cons. Dont kid yourself thinking union labor is lazy. There are just as many lazy SOB's in the union as there are not in unions. Probably more not in the unions considering unions make up a small percentage of the American workforce. I can say I am proud that I am in the Union. I work hard foremost for me because I take pride in my work even before I was union. I work hard for my company to make them money and make a good name for them. And if it all works out I also help make my union look good too.

The unions STARTED OFF as a good thing for the American worker for the reasons you pointed out. Now it is all about money and power and influence. They don't give a rat's ass about you anymore. Don't kid yourself.

[guspech750]

The unions STARTED OFF as a good thing for the American worker for the reasons you pointed out. Now it is all about money and power and influence. They don't give a rat's ass about you anymore. Don't kid yourself.
There is influence. Lets be real here. There are more non union companies who dont give a rats behind about us who influence governments and policy making now more than unions and union companies. Everyone is scramlbling for a peice of the pie$$ for work and more jobs. There has to be some influence. But there is too much from all sides. So

[guspech750]

The unions STARTED OFF as a good thing for the American worker for the reasons you pointed out. Now it is all about money and power and influence. They don't give a rat's ass about you anymore. Don't kid yourself.
There is influence. Lets be real here. There are more non union companies who dont give a rats behind about us who influence governments and policy making now more than unions and union companies. Everyone is scramlbling for a peice of the pie$$ for work and more jobs. There has to be some influence. But there is too much from all sides. So many people want to pay Walmart prices but look in the mirror and wonder. What happend to my job. Well guess what. People wanted Walmart prices and got them. Now we as a country are becoming a big warehouse for cheap junk. And guess who warehouse companies hire. Illegal aliens paying crap pay to them knowing a legal citizen can not get by on that kind of money unless his/her whole family moves in to help pay the bills.Move to China for that garbage. Where you will work like a dying dog all week making spare change to live on. People dont understand that if everybody wants to be paid good then you also have to spend good and help your working class people.(better be a good product though) Now I am rambling.

Its a viscious circle.

Did I mention I like chesse?

We need to get a meet together again very soon before it snows.

[CBT]

There is influence. Lets be real here. There are more non union companies who dont give a rats behind about us who influence governments and policy making now more than unions and union companies. Everyone is scramlbling for a peice of the pie$$ for work and more jobs. There has to be some influence. But there is too much from all sides. So many people want to pay Walmart prices but look in the mirror and wonder. What happend to my job. Well guess what. People wanted Walmart prices and got them. Now we as a country are becoming a big warehouse for cheap junk. And guess who warehouse companies hire. Illegal aliens paying crap pay to them knowing a legal citizen can not get by on that kind of money unless his/her whole family moves in to help pay the bills.Move to China for that garbage. Where you will work like a dying dog all week making spare change to live on. People dont understand that if everybody wants to be paid good then you also have to spend good and help your working class people.(better be a good product though) Now I am rambling.

Its a viscious circle.

Did I mention I like chesse?

We need to get a meet together again very soon before it snows.
I think spreading the wealth would help. (What, too soon?:D)

[tbone]

Not trying to criticize you or individual workers. There are many good people in unions. All I'm saying is that the unions have run American industry into the ground by demanding abnormally high pay, huge benefits and pensions for people that don't have unusual skills. We no longer compete. Jobs go overseas. Now there's nothing left. If they were more reasonable, the jobs would still be here. Something is better than nothing.

[guspech750]

Not trying to criticize you or individual workers. There are many good people in unions. All I'm saying is that the unions have run American industry into the ground by demanding abnormally high pay, huge benefits and pensions for people that don't have unusual skills. We no longer compete. Jobs go overseas. Now there's nothing left. If they were more reasonable, the jobs would still be here. Something is better than nothing.
I do agree with some of what you are saying. There was a lot of bad managing on both sides. But again. There are more non union companies that were not paying union wages and benefits that packed up and left for a cheap unskilled force. Even a job as simple as a call center. Bye bye. Now you get some broken English speaking person living 5000 miles away. They were not union but were probably and hopefully making a good wage and benifets but then their job was shipped away. Its unfortunate.

[LIGHTNIN1]

As far as I am concerned GM and Chrysler do not exist.

[3CzSCrewHead*]

Dang....
they really Crashing us in Tx with all the under Covers....

[FordNut]

If a worker happened to be with GM when all the "outsourcing" craze came about and led to the creation of Delphi, they may have thought it was a good idea to make the move. Same benefits, working in the same general region, basically working for the same company. Then they got screwed when this happened:

The Delphi Disaster: An Economic Horror Story Obama Won’t Tell
Wednesday, September 22, 2010
By Michelle Malkin
The White House believes it can win back depressed and economically stressed voters by turning President Obama into the storyteller-in-chief again. But victims of Obama’s Chicago politics don’t want to hear any more of his own well-worn tales of struggle and sacrifice. They’ve got their own tragedies to tell—heart-wrenching dramas of personal and financial suffering at the very hands of Obama.

Consider the real-life horror story of 20,000 white-collar workers at Delphi, a leading auto parts company spun off from GM a decade ago. As Washington rushed to nationalize the U.S. auto industry with $80 billion in taxpayer “rescue” funds and avoid contested court termination proceedings, the White House auto team schemed with Big Labor bosses to preserve UAW members’ costly pension funds by shafting their nonunion counterparts. In addition, the nonunion pensioners lost all of their health and life insurance benefits.

The abused workers—most from hard-hit northeast Ohio, Michigan and neighboring states—had devoted decades of their lives as secretaries, technicians, engineers and sales employees at Delphi/GM. Some workers have watched up to 70 percent of their pensions vanish.

John Berent of Marblehead, Ohio, lost one-third of his pension: “I worked as a salaried employee for GM (30 years) and Delphi (10 years). After 40 years of dedicated service, I was forced to retire. Then Delphi terminated my health care, life insurance, vision, dental, then terminated the pension plan. Everything I worked 40 years for was wiped out.”

Kelly Fabrizio of Franksville, Wis., saw her pension reduced by 55 percent after working 30 years at Delphi/GM: “I am truly scared for my future. Every day I wake up, shake my head and say out loud—This Is Not How It Was Supposed To Be.”

Roger Hoke of Columbus, Mich., and his wife were both longtime Delphi workers. His pension shrunk by more than 40 percent: “After 33 years with GM and another 10 with Delphi, what did I do wrong to deserve such a fate?”

Paul Dobosz of the Delphi Salaried Retiree Association recounts how they got screwed: “The Auto Task Force knew that the only thing standing in the way of GM getting what they wanted out of Delphi was the already frozen pension obligations.” They hatched a plan to dump those pensions on the federally run Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, while at the same time “devising a clever way to make the UAW pensions whole using GM and TARP money to accomplish it.

The scheme was documented in sworn depositions (that) revealed ... that some groups of workers were more ‘politically sensitive’ and would be afforded special treatment (i.e. subsidy using TARP money) while others less politically worthy would be left out.”

In other words: Obama’s team of auto-crats—stocked with Big Labor-friendly appointees and self-admitted know-nothings about the car industry—decided to “cherry pick” (one Obama official’s own words) which obligations the new Government Motors company would assume and which they would abandon based on their own political whims and fealty. Due process and equal treatment of union and nonunion workers be damned. Administration officials assert that the Delphi workers’ pension fund was underfunded, but two separate actuarial analyses undercut the claim.

The Delphi workers sued the feds and will have a day in court on Sept. 24. They are not asking for a bailout. They are simply asking for fair treatment under the rule of law. Delphi supporters also point out that the very scheme used to “top up” the union workers’ pensions with taxpayer subsidies was challenged by the federal government and ruled illegal by the Supreme Court in the 1990s.

A separate investigation by TARP inspector general Neil Barofsky, announced last week, also will probe “whether political considerations played a role in favoring hourly over salaried retirees.” It shouldn’t take long to unearth the facts. Obama’s own former auto czar Steve Rattner admitted in his new memoir that “attacking the union’s sacred cow” could “jeopardize” the auto bailout deal.

While Obama conducts his worker empathy tour at staged town halls and rallies across the country, his Treasury Department continues to stonewall and refuses to answer questions about the Delphi disaster. But many workers left out in the cold know the truth: Lip-biting, yarn-spinning Obama doesn’t feel their pain. He caused it.

I'll never buy anything from Government Motors.

[CBT]

^^^^^That's :eek: ^^^^^

[wht02lightning]

There is influence. Lets be real here. There are more non union companies who dont give a rats behind about us who influence governments and policy making now more than unions and union companies. Everyone is scramlbling for a peice of the pie$$ for work and more jobs. There has to be some influence. But there is too much from all sides. So

Ill be real here sure, Unions killed GM, plain and simple! Yes it was the companies fault for accepting the terms but did they really have much of a choice??? Pay this dude 40 bucks an hour to install a bolt or shut down production for god knows how long because the cry-babies will strike. Unions are the most unamerican thing around in modern day. Yes they helped back when employers ran dangerous factories and there was no choice but to work for them but its not that way anymore. The world would be a better place without unions. Why do you think Kia built its new west point georgia plant in Georgia??? Because its a right to work state that the unions dont control, and they still pay over 20 bucks an hour. The hours and conditions at that new state of the art plant are great. No unions and a safe work environment, great pay, reasonable hours, and benefits........ Imagine that?

[SpartaPerformance]

The unions STARTED OFF as a good thing for the American worker for the reasons you pointed out. Now it is all about money and power and influence. They don't give a rat's ass about you anymore. Don't kid yourself.


Not trying to criticize you or individual workers. There are many good people in unions. All I'm saying is that the unions have run American industry into the ground by demanding abnormally high pay, huge benefits and pensions for people that don't have unusual skills. We no longer compete. Jobs go overseas. Now there's nothing left. If they were more reasonable, the jobs would still be here. Something is better than nothing.

AMEN!!!! It's not the union workers, it's the union bosses that are the problem.!!! The union bosses that have flat out LIED to the workers saying that their outrageous pay, benefits and retirement plans are sustainable and they are NOT!!! And now the workers are stuck between losing half their pay/benefits and losing their job and these greedy union bosses encourage them to stand tough and then BOOM!!! job gone. Read between the lines people these union bosses are tied to the George Sorros's and Van Jones's, they want to collapse the economy so Socialism can enter the U.S.

[Blackened300a]

Ill be real here sure, Unions killed GM, plain and simple! Yes it was the companies fault for accepting the terms but did they really have much of a choice??? Pay this dude 40 bucks an hour to install a bolt or shut down production for god knows how long because the cry-babies will strike. Unions are the most unamerican thing around in modern day. Yes they helped back when employers ran dangerous factories and there was no choice but to work for them but its not that way anymore. The world would be a better place without unions. Why do you think Kia built its new west point georgia plant in Georgia??? Because its a right to work state that the unions dont control, and they still pay over 20 bucks an hour. The hours and conditions at that new state of the art plant are great. No unions and a safe work environment, great pay, reasonable hours, and benefits........ Imagine that?

You do realize that the money per hour payed for the union worker doesn't go into the workers pocket. Its covering all the retirees, annuity benefits medical packages, and future retirement funds. I'm in the Teamsters Union and our rates are quite expensive for a tractor/trailer and driver for a day. Would you believe that when all is said and done, the customer pays over $125 a hour for my services. I don't make $125 a hour, but its the big picture that would make you consider that our company to be over-priced. We are actually the cheapest around NYC for the service we provide and have a lot of giant construction company's hiring us for our great service at a competitive price. Its also mandatory that a truck must be Union in order to enter and work a Union jobsite. Thats what keeps us in business and employed. If any truck off the street can make a delivery on any job site then it kills our business and then I lose my retirement, annuity and my wages.
I support Unions.

[sailsmen]

No Union ever did anything to help me or any member of my family dating back 100+ years. If you are in a Union and do a great job your employer cannot give you a raise nor can you ask for it. For those who are happy being paid the same as everyonelse unions are good.

I look at what Unions have done to their members, stolen their pensions, ran up benefit "admin costs", ordered strikes for no increase in pay and it makes me very sad.

[sailsmen]

..... If any truck off the street can make a delivery on any job site then it kills our business and then I lose my retirement, annuity and my wages.
I support Unions.

Anti trust exemption? Try that in private business, you will go to jail. So do they hire you at $125 an hour because you are so good or becasue there is a legal monopoly.

A friend got transferred to NYC as a contruction manager. He was told he had to hire x number of y union workers even though the job did not entail that trade. He told them no and got death threats. His boss approved the bogus work. The x union guys showed up and drank coffee all day.

[Blackened300a]

If you are in a Union and do a great job your employer cannot give you a raise nor can you ask for it. For those who are happy being paid the same as everyonelse unions are good.

Not true. We get a automatic raise of a $1.50 an hour every year and a bump in our pension and annuity every 5 years when our contract comes up. I don't have to ask for a raise, we get it automatically.


Anti trust exemption? Try that in private business, you will go to jail. So do they hire you at $125 an hour because you are so good or becasue there is a legal monopoly.

A friend got transferred to NYC as a contruction manager. He was told he had to hire x number of y union workers even though the job did not entail that trade. He told them no and got death threats. His boss approved the bogus work. The x union guys showed up and drank coffee all day.

That only comes into play because a non-union contractor was brought in to a Union job site. There were a few days where I got a called in because a non-union truck showed up on the site. I was paid to drink coffee all day as well while the non-union driver had to jockey loads in all day. That's the contact signed by the GC when the building started. They thought they would try to be slick and get cheaper non-union labor in there. The penalty is having to pay a Union worker(s) for the day.
If that's a problem, head down to your local Union hall and join. Then you can have a pension, medical, annuity, higher pay and job protection. I lose my job tomorrow, I head down to my Union hall and get put on a list of all the Union trucking companies in NYC. Thats my job protection.

[wht02lightning]

Not true. We get a automatic raise of a $1.50 an hour every year and a bump in our pension and annuity every 5 years when our contract comes up. I don't have to ask for a raise, we get it automatically.



That only comes into play because a non-union contractor was brought in to a Union job site. There were a few days where I got a called in because a non-union truck showed up on the site. I was paid to drink coffee all day as well while the non-union driver had to jockey loads in all day. That's the contact signed by the GC when the building started. They thought they would try to be slick and get cheaper non-union labor in there. The penalty is having to pay a Union worker(s) for the day.
If that's a problem, head down to your local Union hall and join. Then you can have a pension, medical, annuity, higher pay and job protection. I lose my job tomorrow, I head down to my Union hall and get put on a list of all the Union trucking companies in NYC. Thats my job protection.

And thats alright with you???? You have to be kidding me. Making a living by strong arming people to use your more expensive service, even tho other companies will do the job for much less, and people wonder whats wrong with america. Your campany charges hundreds of thousands of dollars over market value for services and expects the work to always be there, thats insane. Your solution to others is join the union and pay into the problem??? Business is there to make money, the less money they make the less people they can hire, so your trucking company is costing jobs to the clients you work for.

You also say it costs $125 an hour for your services yet you dont make near that. So where does this money all go? You dont feel cheated?? The union it self makes money hand over fist for your work and keeps most of it for itself.

This is a prime example of why businesses are leaving NYC in droves and heading for more fair and profiting places like Texas.

[guspech750]

I think most people are jealous of some unions. Why is it so wrong to have an organization giving me and others a voice to be heard. Everyone complains that no one speaks for the middle class. Hey guess what? Unions do. If crooked company owners and politicians will not listen to you. Guess who speaks for me. My union. Is union pay outrageuos because non union employees don't have it but wish they could. When I was non union and making chicken feed. I was one of the lowest paid drillers in our company. Even though I had the most skills, knowledge and training of all our drillers. Even drillers who have been with us 20+ years. They were and still are turds and can't do half the work I can. Now that we are union. We all make the same pay rate. Even though that sucks at least I am now being fairly compensated for my skills, knowledge and training. I have not been laid off since this down turn started but guess who have been. The turds. I don't feel sorry for them as they can starve them lazy SOB's. While so many people have lost pay and benifets. We have not. Because we fight for what we believe in but we also bargin. Is fighting for what we believe in is what makes you or your group strong? Don't kid yourself when a company is crying wolf. If they can pay the executives their high pay they can surely pay you/us our meager pay and benifits.

[tbone]

And thats alright with you???? You have to be kidding me. Making a living by strong arming people to use your more expensive service, even tho other companies will do the job for much less, and people wonder whats wrong with america. Your campany charges hundreds of thousands of dollars over market value for services and expects the work to always be there, thats insane. Your solution to others is join the union and pay into the problem??? Business is there to make money, the less money they make the less people they can hire, so your trucking company is costing jobs to the clients you work for.

You also say it costs $125 an hour for your services yet you dont make near that. So where does this money all go? You dont feel cheated?? The union it self makes money hand over fist for your work and keeps most of it for itself.

This is a prime example of why businesses are leaving NYC in droves and heading for more fair and profiting places like Texas.

Well said and very true.

[sailsmen]

Not true. We get a automatic raise of a $1.50 an hour every year and a bump in our pension and annuity every 5 years when our contract comes up. I don't have to ask for a raise, we get it automatically..


That is not a raise by your employer based on the work YOU do. That is an escalation clause regardless of wether you drink coffee all day or actually work.

[sailsmen]

I am not against Unions and have helped several Unions. What I am against is being forced to join one.

A clients contract came up and a strike ensued. National came down and it became very apparent National only cared about National.

The driving issue was that benefits were going up. Simple I facilitated an alternative benefit plan at half the costs and the employer agreed to admin for free. National would not allow the Local to carve out the benefits.

Local broke off and formed their own Union. Everybody is happy except National.

I had no direct compensation. I had a client with a problem and I helped solve it. That was in my best interest.

The person who helped the USA worker the most was Henry Ford. In order to increase profits and expand his market base
Ford per, "Former Chrysler chairman Lee Iacocca,wrote in Time Magazine that Ford "shocked the world with what probably stands as his greatest contribution ever: the $5-a-day minimum-wage scheme. The average wage in the auto industry then was $2.34 for a 9-hr. shift. Ford not only doubled that, he also shaved an hour off the workday."

Ford wanted his workers to be able to buy a Ford to expand his market and to cut down on turn over.

What Ford did was give mobility, enabling the worker to pursue opportunities.

I will never join a Union because I will never accept that I will only get paid according to the lowest common denominator.

[SC Cheesehead]

Borrowed from ctrlraven...

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6565/derailed.jpg

[wht02lightning]

I think most people are jealous of some unions. Why is it so wrong to have an organization giving me and others a voice to be heard. Everyone complains that no one speaks for the middle class. Hey guess what? Unions do. If crooked company owners and politicians will not listen to you. Guess who speaks for me. My union. Is union pay outrageuos because non union employees don't have it but wish they could. When I was non union and making chicken feed. I was one of the lowest paid drillers in our company. Even though I had the most skills, knowledge and training of all our drillers. Even drillers who have been with us 20+ years. They were and still are turds and can't do half the work I can. Now that we are union. We all make the same pay rate. Even though that sucks at least I am now being fairly compensated for my skills, knowledge and training. I have not been laid off since this down turn started but guess who have been. The turds. I don't feel sorry for them as they can starve them lazy SOB's. While so many people have lost pay and benifets. We have not. Because we fight for what we believe in but we also bargin. Is fighting for what we believe in is what makes you or your group strong? Don't kid yourself when a company is crying wolf. If they can pay the executives their high pay they can surely pay you/us our meager pay and benifits.

THis doesnt make any sense to me. you think people are jealous of unions?? Cant anyone join? Im not jealous of unions at all, im upset that they have taken over so much. They make it harder for companies to employee people. They inflate the cost of goods and services. if you think for a second that the cost is taken by the company your dead wrong. They pass that cost on the consumer. I dont think "meager" is the word for union wages. $30+ an hour for unskilled auto industry jobs arent "meager". Thats well above what alot of americans make.

[sailsmen]

Meg Sullivan, UCLA
"Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt.
After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years."

"The policies were contained in the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), which exempted industries from antitrust prosecution if they agreed to enter into collective bargaining agreements that significantly raised wages. Because protection from antitrust prosecution all but ensured higher prices for goods and services, a wide range of industries took the bait, Cole and Ohanian found. By 1934 more than 500 industries, which accounted for nearly 80 percent of private, non-agricultural employment, had entered into the collective bargaining agreements called for under NIRA.

Cole and Ohanian calculate that NIRA and its aftermath account for 60 percent of the weak recovery. Without the policies, they contend that the Depression would have ended in 1936 instead of the year when they believe the slump actually ended: 1943."

"In the three years following the implementation of Roosevelt's policies, wages in 11 key industries averaged 25 percent higher than they otherwise would have done, the economists calculate. But unemployment was also 25 percent higher than it should have been, given gains in productivity.

Meanwhile, prices across 19 industries averaged 23 percent above where they should have been, given the state of the economy. With goods and services that much harder for consumers to afford, demand stalled and the gross national product floundered at 27 percent below where it otherwise might have been.

"High wages and high prices in an economic slump run contrary to everything we know about market forces in economic downturns," Ohanian said. "As we've seen in the past several years, salaries and prices fall when unemployment is high. By artificially inflating both, the New Deal policies short-circuited the market's self-correcting forces."

[CBT]

I wonder why the military has never been allowed to unionize. Thoughts?

[wht02lightning]

I wonder why the military has never been allowed to unionize. Thoughts?

Because the government owns you once you sign the contract. You have no rights much less the ability to organize

[CBT]

Because the government owns you once you sign the contract. You have no rights much less the ability to organize
You can organize, there are all kinds of associations in the military.

[FordNut]

I used to be kind of neutral on the union subject, but I was heading up getting a new facility build in Chattanooga, which is different from most of the southeast in that the city is very pro-union. Therefore, all the plumbing was subbed out to union shops. One day there were 6 plumbers on site. Two for copper pipe, two for plastic pipe, and two for galvanized & iron pipe. Each part was contracted separately, and each union required two workers be on site because it's unsafe to work alone. SIX plumbers on site, and they didn't do anything I couldn't have done in a sigle day by myself. Actually they did less, because get this...

The toilet was stopped up. All SIX said they couldn't plunge it because it wasn't in their job description. They went outside and used the port-a-potty instead. I plunged it myself, but then I realized why so many people are anti-union these days. And why union contracted jobs cost so much more than they need to cost.

[wht02lightning]

You can organize, there are all kinds of associations in the military.

I know that, I was in the army for 4 years. You can not however strike or refuse to do work. And thats the way it should be, a soldier must be expected to do whatever they are told. A union of soldiers would defeat the entire concept of chain of command. I can just imagine my privates telling me they refused to go to the field or do PT because they didnt get paid enough or werent getting enough benefits

[CBT]

I know that, I was in the army for 4 years. You can not however strike or refuse to do work. And thats the way it should be, a soldier must be expected to do whatever they are told. A union of soldiers would defeat the entire concept of chain of command. <---unions don't have a chain of command? I can just imagine my privates telling me they refused to go to the field or do PT because they didnt get paid enough or werent getting enough benefits

So it's okay for everyone else to be able to fight for thier rights and better pay, but not men and women who defend this country?

[Bluerauder]

I can just imagine my privates telling me they refused to go to the field or do PT because they didnt get paid enough or werent getting enough benefits

This ^^^^^ never happened to me ..... thank God !!! :rofl:

[Phrog_gunner]

Meg Sullivan, UCLA
"Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt.
After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years."



The Depression of 1920-21 and the policies that corrected it, in record time, are just more proof that the socialism crap doesn't work.

[wht02lightning]

So it's okay for everyone else to be able to fight for thier rights and better pay, but not men and women who defend this country?

LOL, Im a veteran so im all for better pay for soliders, but a solider does not have the luxery of refusing to work. A soldier must obey the orders of his chain of command, plain and simple. A union having a chain of command doesnt play into it at all. Im saying the soldier must obey the orders of their NCO's and Officers without question. Could you imagine an infantry company saying they arent going to fight a battle unless they get a better pension plan? The military makes sacrifices, both personal and professional so the citizens of this country have the rights granted to them. The military gives up their rights so you can enjoy them

[guspech750]

THis doesnt make any sense to me. you think people are jealous of unions?? Cant anyone join? Im not jealous of unions at all, im upset that they have taken over so much. They make it harder for companies to employee people. They inflate the cost of goods and services. if you think for a second that the cost is taken by the company your dead wrong. They pass that cost on the consumer. I dont think "meager" is the word for union wages. $30+ an hour for unskilled auto industry jobs arent "meager". Thats well above what alot of americans make.
I used the word meager to compare working people to executives making millions and millions with unlimited health and pensions while they cry they cant pay you non union or union wages and benifets. They can pay.

And believe me. There are plenty of stupid rules that unions put into their contracts. Do I follow them? Hell no. I and many more that I know and work with know better. In the end. There is nothing wrong with workers protections and having our voices heard. And there is plenty of blame to go around for everyone.

And lets not foreget a lot of GM's car's were just god awful. When you make a bad product not very many are going to buy a bad product regardless of what the costs are.

We should all hold hands while standing naked chanting CBT. CBT.:D

[CBT]

LOL, Im a veteran so im all for better pay for soliders, but a solider does not have the luxery of refusing to work. A soldier must obey the orders of his chain of command, plain and simple. A union having a chain of command doesnt play into it at all. Im saying the soldier must obey the orders of their NCO's and Officers without question. Could you imagine an infantry company saying they arent going to fight a battle unless they get a better pension plan? The military makes sacrifices, both personal and professional so the citizens of this country have the rights granted to them. The military gives up their rights so you can enjoy them

So why is it any different than any other company? There is a boss who tells the foremen what to do, the foremen tell the worker bees what to do, same as the military. I'm sure high rise construction is very dangerous, do they not utilize their unions to make sure they are not being put in danger for no reason or without safety gear? If unions are so good, why can't the military have them? It's an honest question. If unions are so good, why doesn't the military have them.

[wht02lightning]

So why is it any different than any other company? There is a boss who tells the foremen what to do, the foremen tell the worker bees what to do, same as the military. I'm sure high rise construction is very dangerous, do they not utilize their unions to make sure they are not being put in danger for no reason or without safety gear? If unions are so good, why can't the military have them? It's an honest question. If unions are so good, why doesn't the military have them.

Well yet again, I dont support unions, and yet again The military could not operate with them

[guspech750]

So why is it any different than any other company? There is a boss who tells the foremen what to do, the foremen tell the worker bees what to do, same as the military. I'm sure high rise construction is very dangerous, do they not utilize their unions to make sure they are not being put in danger for no reason or without safety gear? If unions are so good, why can't the military have them? It's an honest question. If unions are so good, why doesn't the military have them.
Its just another way the government brainwashes and controls people i guess.

[CBT]

Its just another way the government brainwashes and controls people i guess.

You SHUT YOUR MOUTH when you talk to me !!!
Which part? The military gets brain washed? No arguments there.

[guspech750]

You SHUT YOUR MOUTH when you talk to me !!!
Which part? The military gets brain washed? No arguments there.
Im sorry masta.:alone:

Hell yeah they get brainwashed. Not all of them.

[CBT]

Im sorry masta.:alone:
It's okay, I still love you. Reeeeeal hard.

[tbone]

So why is it any different than any other company? There is a boss who tells the foremen what to do, the foremen tell the worker bees what to do, same as the military. I'm sure high rise construction is very dangerous, do they not utilize their unions to make sure they are not being put in danger for no reason or without safety gear? If unions are so good, why can't the military have them? It's an honest question. If unions are so good, why doesn't the military have them.

The easiest and most obvious answer is that the military cannot endure the threat of a strike. It undermines our national security, especially during wartime. Can you imagine the consequences?:confused:

[CBT]

The easiest and most obvious answer is that the military cannot endure the threat of a strike. It undermines our national security, especially during wartime. Can you imagine the consequences?:confused:
Of people striking for more pay before we invade a country that thier neighbors could very easily defeat if they actually felt like it? I think it's a fantastic idea. Think of the money we could already be saving.

[tbone]

Of people striking for more pay before we invade a country that thier neighbors could very easily defeat if they actually felt like it? I think it's a fantastic idea. Think of the money we could already be saving.

I hope you're kidding dude?:eek:

[CBT]

I hope you're kidding dude?:eek:
Why? Someone mentioned unions, it occured to me that our military doesn't have them, I asked why not, now answers and ideas are flowing. Why would it NOT be a good idea to unionize the military? Think of how much harder you'd fight (insert name of next country we invade for no reason here) knowing you had an awesome raise coming each year no matter what, an awesome retirement plan, and great dental and health care?

[Blackened300a]

And thats alright with you???? You have to be kidding me. Making a living by strong arming people to use your more expensive service, even tho other companies will do the job for much less, and people wonder whats wrong with america. Your campany charges hundreds of thousands of dollars over market value for services and expects the work to always be there, thats insane.
Price around a Union based trucking outfit in NYC, We are actually cheaper then almost all Union trucking outfits in the NY area. Its not more then Market value, it is market value. When we get calls the very first question is "Are your drivers Teamsters"? If we weren't a Union shop, I would have been out of a job a long time ago. Its not strong arming its the way the city works. 95% of all commercial construction is Union. That's reality. They can shop around and even use a non-Union Scab company. Here's what happens, Your non-Union truck shows up and gets booked by the on site Teamster steward. The non-union driver gets turned away and can't unload. Thats when you have to... A) Pay a union driver for the day, or.. B) Hire a Union trucking outfit to bring the load in. Thats the way the construction industry works. I do agree in most cases there is a lot of BS. I didn't make the rules, I just live by them as per my contract and job title.

Your solution to others is join the union and pay into the problem??? Business is there to make money, the less money they make the less people they can hire, so your trucking company is costing jobs to the clients you work for.

Costing jobs?? Because of the Union I have a job and considering we been in business since 1937, I would say that we haven't cost anyone anything. We are not a monopoly, there are quite a few companies that can be called in. However, like I said 95% of commercial construction is NYC is all Union. That's why we get the work and paid what we do.

You also say it costs $125 an hour for your services yet you dont make near that. So where does this money all go? You dont feel cheated?? The union it self makes money hand over fist for your work and keeps most of it for itself.

No I don't feel cheated, When I retire, Ill be handed a giant annuity check made up of a percentage of all the hours I put in and a great pension on top of that. Plus health benefits for myself and my family til the day I die. That's what the extra money is going towards.

This is a prime example of why businesses are leaving NYC in droves and heading for more fair and profiting places like Texas.
Not the NYC construction industry where Unions are dominant. Sure you can fabricate something cheaper in another state but Union workers will be the one installing it in a building or delivering it to the job site.

I don't see any resolve to this discussion.

[RF Overlord]

A word of caution here...don't let the pro-/anti-union discussion get out of hand.

[wht02lightning]

I don't see any resolve to this discussion.


You dont see it as strong arming?? So if I go to NYC, buy a dump truck, then get a contract to haul s**t away for $75 an hour, thats its perfectly acceptable to have me put out of business because im not a teamster. Thats insanity. Its the opposite of free market. And yes it does cost jobs. Might not be your precious Union truck driving jobs, but the company that hired you now has to pay out their rear end for your services for no good reason and hense doesnt have the capital they could have used to employee someone else. I know you support it because its your way of life, it just blows my mind you think its fair and something honest. Theres a reason why when people think of teamsters they think of the mob. Unions are a racket

[Phrog_gunner]

The people on welfare don't think that welfare is a bad gig either.

[tbone]

Why? Someone mentioned unions, it occured to me that our military doesn't have them, I asked why not, now answers and ideas are flowing. Why would it NOT be a good idea to unionize the military? Think of how much harder you'd fight (insert name of next country we invade for no reason here) knowing you had an awesome raise coming each year no matter what, an awesome retirement plan, and great dental and health care?

I think I just answered that question.

[wht02lightning]

The people on welfare don't think that welfare is a bad gig either.

Touche', 100% right

[guspech750]

You dont see it as strong arming?? So if I go to NYC, buy a dump truck, then get a contract to haul s**t away for $75 an hour, thats its perfectly acceptable to have me put out of business because im not a teamster. Thats insanity. Its the opposite of free market. And yes it does cost jobs. Might not be your precious Union truck driving jobs, but the company that hired you now has to pay out their rear end for your services for no good reason and hense doesnt have the capital they could have used to employee someone else. I know you support it because its your way of life, it just blows my mind you think its fair and something honest. Theres a reason why when people think of teamsters they think of the mob. Unions are a racket
Thats where you are wrong. They are paying for his service and also his retirement, health and welfare benifets and such. Just as we all pay for those same benifets when you buy anything or pay for a service. Its just common sence.

I bet if companies were honest and really cared about their employees (and there are some) then there might not be a need for unions. But until then, I am not giving up my membership.

[CBT]

I think I just answered that question.
Unions in the military won't work because of national security? :confused: I'm confused. They seem so good outside the military, and the military is supposed to mirror society (and be held to a higher standard) so would it not make sense for the military to have an even BETTER union than those found in society? Have like a super union that all the other unions in the world envy and fear so much, no one would dare mess with us?

[wht02lightning]

Thats where you are wrong. They are paying for his service and also his retirement, health and welfare benifets and such. Just as we all pay for those same benifets when you buy anything or pay for a service. Its just common sence.

I bet if companies were honest and really cared about their employees (and there are some) then there might not be a need for unions. But until then, I am not giving up my membership.

And why the heck is it the company that needs trucks out for his retirement??? Shouldnt it be the truck company he works for, or god forbid the employee himself. If it wernt such a racket then get your own truck since your a teamster and charge $100 an hour and pay your own everything. Surely could at that price, but wait, you cant undercut the union, or your a target. And that sir is where the problem lies

[Blackened300a]

You dont see it as strong arming?? So if I go to NYC, buy a dump truck, then get a contract to haul s**t away for $75 an hour, thats its perfectly acceptable to have me put out of business because im not a teamster. Thats insanity.
That's not true. You can haul what you want where you want. The majority of commercial construction is Union. There for the cost of Union labor is higher and that's expected when they hire us. You can haul away dirt or whatever you want to any dump you want. That's not where the Union steps in. It only comes into play when delivering to a Union jobsite.
If $75 an hour is what you need to cover the insurance, fuel, maintenance, your salary and benefits plus your overhead then that's what you'll have to charge for your service. That's what we all do.

Its the opposite of free market. And yes it does cost jobs. Might not be your precious Union truck driving jobs, but the company that hired you now has to pay out their rear end for your services for no good reason and hense doesnt have the capital they could have used to employee someone else.
I understand your point completely, however we are hired by Union outfits that understand what the costs are for Union services. That's all factored in when they bid jobs and have to hire outside outfits. Its all in the bidding process to get the job whether its a building a highrise in Manhattan or building a bridge. The Union labor costs are factored in. Plus paying us for the days work is cheaper then if they had to buy and maintain a truck plus sign a Union contract and pay the driver. We look like a bargain when all is said and done.
I know you support it because its your way of life, it just blows my mind you think its fair and something honest. Theres a reason why when people think of teamsters they think of the mob. Unions are a racket
I do agree, Teamsters have a bad rap from back in the Hoffa days. If you were in a Union and saw it from my point of view, we would be on the same page, thats why this discussion won't be resolved here.

I see your point 100% and I agree with you that its a racket and in some cases unfair and dishonest. Its the way business is done here. Down South or in other parts of the country even near by in NJ, Unions are not dominate on job sites. Most drivers I talk to from other states hate hauling to NY because of the Unions. We have Canadian drivers bring pre-cast to our yard, we then take the load to the job and return the driver the empty. The reason why is because he is not allowed on the jobsite. We have to be hired at a much higher pay rate to do the same job he can do. Its not fair at all, its just the way business is run here.

[CBT]

I see your point 100% and I agree with you that its a racket and in some cases unfair and dishonest. Its the way business is done here. Down South or in other parts of the country even near by in NJ, Unions are not dominate on job sites. Most drivers I talk to from other states hate hauling to NY because of the Unions. We have Canadian drivers bring pre-cast to our yard, we then take the load to the job and return the driver the empty. The reason why is because he is not allowed on the jobsite. We have to be hired at a much higher pay rate to do the same job he can do. Its not fair at all, its just the way business is run here.
Paul what determines if a jobsite is a union jobsite, out of curiosity, I really have no idea.

[guspech750]

And why the heck is it the company that hires him out for his retirement??? Shouldnt it be the company he works for, or god forbid the employee himself. If it wernt such a racket then get your own truck since your a teamster and charge $100 an hour and pay your own everything. Surely could at that price, but wait, you cant undercut the union, or your a target. And that sir is where the problem lies
Anything and all things you have bought and will buy in the future and services paid for out of your pocket are going to the the companies and its employees and any all benifets provided to those employees and owners. So you are saying that no one union or non union should have any benifets because it increases the costs. Move to China or Mexico if you want that. Im willing to pay for products and services to help my fellow working American.

[guspech750]

Undercutting happens in all fields of business. Union, non union. For instance. I work for an engineering and environmental comapny. I am a driller. I drill wells, rock core soil sampling etc etc. We are a larger company than most in the Chicagoland area. My best friend works for a similar drilling company but is much smaller. Now. We all have the same pay rates and benifets and such through our union. Basically the operating costs are nearly the same in that regard. But. Where my friends company has the advantage is that he works for a much smaller company that has much less overhead and thus can bid on the same jobs for less. Is that undercutting. No. Its the cost of doing business and the cost of being a larger company with more employees and equipment and such that equals higher overhead costs that means we charge more for our services. Even when we were non union those same things still applied.

[wht02lightning]

Anything and all things you have bought and will buy in the future and services paid for out of your pocket are going to the the companies and its employees and any all benifets provided to those employees and owners. So you are saying that no one union or non union should have any benifets because it increases the costs. Move to China or Mexico if you want that. Im willing to pay for products and services to help my fellow working American.

There is a huge differance. Were talking about paying people HUGE amounts of money for work anyone could do and would be willing to do for less. This discussion started because of the UAW and GM.

And also move to China??? Im talking about free markets, where supply and demand determine costs, you on the other hand seem to support set costs by higher powers, which one of these fits better in china?

[wht02lightning]

I see your point 100% and I agree with you that its a racket and in some cases unfair and dishonest. Its the way business is done here. Down South or in other parts of the country even near by in NJ, Unions are not dominate on job sites. Most drivers I talk to from other states hate hauling to NY because of the Unions. We have Canadian drivers bring pre-cast to our yard, we then take the load to the job and return the driver the empty. The reason why is because he is not allowed on the jobsite. We have to be hired at a much higher pay rate to do the same job he can do. Its not fair at all, its just the way business is run here.

Well I respect you for saying that you see my point, and I see yours as well. I just see it as something thats dangerous to the economy. Ill agree we surely wont settle it here, I had a good time debating it tho. If im ever in NYC ill buy ya a beer with my non union pay :argue::beer:

[69428SCJ]

I know I'm slightly late to this convo, but the simplest reason why there are no unions in the military is A) it's forbidden under UCMJ and B) it undermines the most basic tennets of the military premise like wht02lightning said.

[Blackened300a]

Paul what determines if a jobsite is a union jobsite, out of curiosity, I really have no idea.

The size of the job. You can't build a skyscraper in NYC without Union labor. All the major contracting companies use Union labor exclusively. A small house, a 2 story building can go up non-union. Major commercial construction is all Union built. Its more for insurance reasons. If a guy gets hurt on the jobsite, the compensation falls on the Union, not the GC of the job. When you have a job with 2000 guys doing all kinds of various jobs at any given time, its a safety net for the GC.


Well I respect you for saying that you see my point, and I see yours as well. I just see it as something thats dangerous to the economy. Ill agree we surely wont settle it here, I had a good time debating it tho. If im ever in NYC ill buy ya a beer with my non union pay :argue::beer:
When things were good and the economy was booming, nobody thought twice about Union wages and what Union labor costs. Now that the economy sucks and money is tight its become a issue. So its completely understandable how you feel. We are feeling it hard here as well, all the big construction outfits are very slow in the city. 2008 was our biggest year in our history with construction. 2009 we made less then half and this year we are no where near what we made in 2008. We are hoping to survive long enough to pull through this slump.

Likewise on debate, Ill take you up on your offer if you are in the area. :beer:

[sailsmen]

Unions are fine so long as I am not forced to join one to go to work and so long as I am not forced to hire one to get work done.

A word of advice. Demand that every 2 years your union hire a recognized independent actuary to determine the soundness of your pension and that their report be made available to you.

[Blackened300a]

Unions are fine so long as I am not forced to join one to go to work and so long as I am not forced to hire one to get work done.

A word of advice. Demand that every 2 years your union hire a recognized independent actuary to determine the soundness of your pension and that their report be made available to you.

I get a giant book of numbers and facts in my mailbox every year or so. I would have to hand it off to my accountant to figure it out.

[sailsmen]

Then ask when was the last time the Pension was analyzed by an independent actuary and what was the shortfall?
The State of LA Employees Pension Fund is short by $3,600 for every man, woman and child in the State. What that tells me is they are not going to get their full pension.

[tbone]

Unions in the military won't work because of national security? :confused: I'm confused. They seem so good outside the military, and the military is supposed to mirror society (and be held to a higher standard) so would it not make sense for the military to have an even BETTER union than those found in society? Have like a super union that all the other unions in the world envy and fear so much, no one would dare mess with us?

They would attack the minute the military went on strike. Nuff said.:shake:

[Vortex]

I love how when times are tough they believe what they hear on the radio and go after union workers and other little guys. The real reason GM is in bad shape is because 1) they got behind on the quality curve in the 70's/80's, 2) Americans could care less if what they buy is made in the USA or not and 3) Bad management decisions (Aztec/electric cars/duplicate cars under different brands). GMactually builds a very nice car today, every bit as good as anywhere else in the world, unfortunately the mistakes made a couple of decades back are tough to get over with the younger car buyers today.

[tbone]

What in the world does the radio have to do with anything? All these facts about unions have been common knowledge for years.

[CBT]

They would attack the minute the military went on strike. Nuff said.:shake:

That's where the scabs come to the rescue, it's a win-win.

[tbone]

That's where the scabs come to the rescue, it's a win-win.

Would that be the "Union of Illegal South of the Border Welfare League"?

[sailsmen]

And when times are good they beleived what 3 different news anchors said?

So if I turn off the radio our unemployment is not ~9.5% and our Public Debt to GDP has not gone up 55% in 2 years from 40% to 63%, BUDGETED to 90% in 2020?

Ohhhh I get it, Orson Wells has taken over the radio and it is all a publicity stunt!:D

Obama is not President. Pelosi is not Speaker and Reid is not head of the Senate!:banana:

[guspech750]

I just want to say hi all.