Tennessee Firefighters watch as Home Burns

[Bluerauder]

The guy didn't pay the $75 fee for fire service. What do you all think about this? What if nobody paid and was just betting on NOT having a fire. Seems this guy gambled and lost. I have mixed feelings over this and can understand both sides. It appears that the fee system is broken and doesn't help either side.

Let's have a thoughtfull discussion on this ..... ;)



A smoldering rage may be all that remains after Gene Cranick's home burned to the ground last week in Obion County, Tennessee.

Firefighters are usually the bold "veni, vidi, vici" sort, but those from neighboring South Fulton could only say "veni, vidi." They came. They watched. That's it.

Cranick lives outside of the city limits and he admits that he forgot to pay a $75 annual service fee that would have provided him with fire protection. Firefighters wouldn't lift a finger, much less the hoses that might have saved the house.

The fire reportedly started in some barrels outside. As the flames crept closer to the home, Cranick says he offered to pay whatever it would take. The plea fell on deaf ears. Hours later, the home was gone.

So were three dogs and a cat.

"They coulda' been saved if they put water on it. But they didn't do it," Cranick told MSNBC.

The South Fulton firefighters did show up and managed to save a neighbor's field. The neighbor had paid the fee. But they would provide no heroics for the Cranicks. A local news report shows them climbing back on their trucks, flames still dancing over what was once the family's home.

[dakslim]

The guy didn't pay the $75 fee for fire service. What do you all think about this? What if nobody paid and was just betting on NOT having a fire. Seems this guy gambled and lost. I have mixed feelings over this and can understand both sides. It appears that the fee system is broken and doesn't help either side.

Let's have a thoughtfull discussion on this ..... ;)

I read about this yesterday and also have mixed emotions...I don't know if I could sit by and watch someone's home burn no matter what the circumstances!

[Zack]

Aint no Joke,

PAY THAT NOTE

[Bluerauder]

I read about this yesterday and also have mixed emotions...I don't know if I could sit by and watch someone's home burn no matter what the circumstances!

Don't think that I could either; but wouldn't that just encourage everyone NOT to pay the fee for fire service? If everyone knew that the firefighters would show up and do the job even if they hadn't paid, it wouldn't e long before the Firemen had no funds at all to do anything.

Maybe this guy just forget to pay. Maybe he had some temporary cash flow issues and took a risk. Maybe he just didn't think that the worst case scenario was even possible ... he thought wrong.

Fire & Rescue Services ain't free. Somebody has to pay in the form of taxes or fees.

[MrBluGruv]

Wouldn't a more logical solution be to bill him like 3 times as much later?

This way his home is saved, he's likely guilted into paying up, and the fire department makes a LOT more in the long run. I wasn't aware that some emergency services didn't bill after services already anyways?

[RF Overlord]

Awesome.

I think this was totally wrong and the firefighters should be prosecuted. The guy didn't REFUSE to pay, he just forgot and OFFERED to pay at the time.

What if a hospital refused medical treatment just because someone forgot to pay their insurance bill and that person died...think the lawyers would have a field day with that one?

[Blk Mamba]

I'm glad I live where this protection is afforded through my taxes. On the note, "what if no one paid", then I guess there wouldn't be a fire dept. As a youngster in rural NY, my father was the fire chief of our local volunteer fire dept., it was nearly a full time job, just to put together fund raisers to keep the dept. up and running, at the time he was also a lineman for the electric company, and a small dairy farmer.

[kernie]

The very idea that there is a fee..:confused:

:beer:

[Blk Mamba]

Awesome.

I think this was totally wrong and the firefighters should be prosecuted. The guy didn't REFUSE to pay, he just forgot and OFFERED to pay at the time.

What if a hospital refused medical treatment just because someone forgot to pay their insurance bill and that person died...think the lawyers would have a field day with that one?


This scenario has happened, medical services can be refused, ask me how I know.

[dakslim]

As I recall, there were dogs in the house that perished...here comes the Humane Society!

[Rockettman]

Yup!

Even if they did have to (have to...what a joke over $75) let the house burn down, they should all go to jail and loose their jobs; pension; whatever because of letting the animals die because of the fire! Whether you have a love for animals or not, these are living breathing things left to burn.

I can't believe that any firefighter in his right mind could take an choose a career like this, ONLY on the premiss of making sure that "the system" got their money!
Maybe the city should include it in taxes so people that honestly can't afford it (I don't know this guy's situation), don't have to watch the lives burn to the ground.

This is stupid move by the fire department, and/or the brilliant folks that told them not to bother.
The Mayor of the city should have his home and family burn to a crisp while everyone just stands and watches, just so he can see how rediculous it that he has put this in place.

[Bluerauder]

I think this was totally wrong and the firefighters should be prosecuted. The guy didn't REFUSE to pay, he just forgot and OFFERED to pay at the time.

Isn't that sort of like placing your bet AFTER the ball has dropped in the hole or after everyone has shown their cards.

I could have saved a bunch of money over the past 40 years if I could have bought car insurance "on the spot" AFTER the accident. It doesn't work that way.

If the firemen took the money at the scene (don't know which one of the firefighters carries the money and receipts), then wouldn't everyone try to do that? H3LL, I would .... then I would only have to worry about fires when I was away and couldn't meet the fire truck.

[Pops]

I bet a lawsuit happens on this one guys. I see both sides of this but do not agree with the actions of the fire dept. They not only caused a huge loss for the house owner but cost the fire dept money as they did roll the trucks to the scene. I would not want to be the fireman that made the decision to not help!

[Rockettman]

T a x e s !!!

[Zack]

Rules are Rules....until you go to court.

F'ed up either way you look at it.

[Bluerauder]

The very idea that there is a fee..:confused:

:beer:

So, Fire and Rescue Services in Canada don't cost anything? Where do you think your taxes go .... if not at the national level, then at the territory or local level.

Fire Service fees date back to the founding of the country. The first Fire Services were founded in the City of Philadelphia. Fire Departments were competing with each other for home owner's business. They used to have distinctive plaques/emblems placed over the front door to identified a particular fire service. As I recall, there were 4-5 competing fire departments in Philadelphia. The emblems/plaques are still visible on some of the historic homes in and around the Walnut and Chestnut St areas downtown.

If a fire department showed up at a house fire that didn't have the proper emblem ..... those firemen were not responsible for putting out the fire. No payment, no emblem, no service. Of course that was 300 years ago, not Tennessee, USA last week. Of course, even back then some people tried to "Get Over" with fake/counterfeit fire emblems for their doorways.

[Pops]

Rules are Rules....until you go to court.

F'ed up either way you look at it.

You have it right Zack. They will be in court and I bet the rules are changed after that. The lawyers will make way more than 75.00 defending the fire fighters!:(

[kernie]

T a x e s !!!

I dunno, that almost sounds like socialism! :D

[kernie]

So, Fire and Rescue Services in Canada don't cost anything? Where do you think your taxes go .... if not at the national level, then at the territory or local level.

Fire Service fees date back to the founding of the country. The first Fire Services were founded in the City of Philadelphia. Fire Departments were competing with each other for home owner's business. They used to have distinctive plaques/emblems placed over the front door to identified a particular fire service. As I recall, there were 4-5 competing fire departments in Philadelphia. The emblems/plaques are still visible on some of the historic homes in and around the Walnut and Chestnut St areas downtown.

If a fire department showed up at a house fire that didn't have the proper emblem ..... those firemen were not responsible for putting out the fire. No payment, no emblem, no service. Of course that was 300 years ago, not Tennessee, USA last week.
Yes i am aware that our taxes pay for our fire services.

:beer:

[Bluerauder]

They will be in court and I bet the rules are changed after that. The lawyers will make way more than 75.00 defending the fire fighters!:(

I agree that the rules will probably be changed. The lawyers will make lots of money on this. But overall, I do not think that the home owner will prevail.

The "Fee for Fire Service" will likely be changed to some sort of tax that doesn't require direct billing by the Fire Department.

In my county, we pay real estate and personal property taxes. There is a fire & rescue levy added on top of the RE Tax Rate that is based on the area that you live in. The more rural areas tend to have a higher fire levy rate since the services are spread over a smaller population base.

There ain't no such thing as a FREE LUNCH. For whatever reason, this guy tried to get SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. Now he has nothing. Dayum shame. Your decisions have consequences.

[Paul T. Casey]

Awesome.

I think this was totally wrong and the firefighters should be prosecuted. The guy didn't REFUSE to pay, he just forgot and OFFERED to pay at the time.


No quite true, I've read a few articles about this. This "gentleman" had refused to pay for the last 3 years, despite visits from the officials. He also started the fire in his trash barrels (supposedly). He has also had more than one suspicious fire (think insurance claim) at his place in the past. The firefighters would also make sure there were no human lives at stake, just not fight the fire. I'm not saying that's how I would play it, or if it's right, but thems the breaks. Also, think tax instead of fire dept. insurance.

[Leadfoot281]

Who'd expect a bunch of tax collecters to fight a fire?

[rayjay]

Where I live we pay fire district taxes that pay for the equipment. The man power is all volunteer here. To be honest, I have no idea what the $ amount is and don't care until it becomes outrageous, which I doubt it will.

[Black Dynamite]

What kind of fire fighters don't fight a fire? I'm guessing maybe it was a VFD? Fees aside, why can't you help what is in essence your neighbor when he's in trouble? WTF's wrong with this country?

There seem to be some similarities here to the Nuremburg trials......

[Bluerauder]

What kind of fire fighters don't fight a fire? I'm guessing maybe it was a VFD? Fees aside, why can't you help what is in essence your neighbor when he's in trouble? WTF's wrong with this country?

There seem to be some similarities here to the Nuremburg trials......

Not sure I follow your correlation to the Nuremburg Trials. Please 'splain.

Would you feel the same way if this was about Garbage Collection? Suppose your next door neighbor just decided that he wasn't going to pay the fee (or tax) for garbage collection. Do you think that he would be entitled to FREE collection services? Suppose he sneaked his garbage into your cans at night to circumvent the fee/tax by riding on your paid services. Suppose that your collection fees went up because your garbage was always twice as large as everyone else. Would that be fair? See any correlation there?

Suppose he just let his garbage build up in the side yard until it bacame a health and rodent hazard. Would you and your neighbors come to his rescue to pay his garbage collection fee?

Again, I see BOTH sides of the Fire story. You gotta PAY to play and this guy gambled and lost. Don't care what his reasons were. If he had legitimate reasons, he probably could have worked them out with the local authorities. Seems he bet all his worldly possessions against the $75 fire service fee. Bad Gamble.

[1 Bad Merc]

I think in a case like this they should put the fire out and then send him a bill for the real cost of fighting the fire. Then they are covered (both in fighting the fire and billing "Real Cost" services) either way. That makes alot more sense then sitting their watching the guys house burn down.

[Egon Spengler]

Being a firefighter, I don't care what the deal is, I swore to protect people and their property. Let them work it out after the fact with fees and what not. I could not sit there and watch a house burn! I want to have some fun! haha

[Bluerauder]

I want to have some fun! haha

I hear this alot from young firefighters and I find it to be a disturbing attitude. Fires ain't fun. Fires wreck homes and families. If you get your kicks at fires, I recommend you get out of the business 'cause you are gonna get someone killed. :(

I come from a family with more than 130 years of Fire Department experience. Never once did I ever hear my father, my Grandfather, my uncles, my son-in-law or anyone ever say that Fire was fun. In fact, a perfect night for my Dad was to "Not Turn a Wheel".

[FordNut]

A lot of comments I see are obviously by urban dwellers. Out in the county it's different. We don't pay city taxes so we don't have free fire protection or trash pickup. Many of us don't have any fire protection available at all. Some of us have a subscription fire protection service available. Different local fire departments have varying policies. Some will not respond to a fire at all for a non-subscriber, others will respond but then charge the full expenses. These expenses are usually SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS, not two or three times the subscription fee.

The only reason the fire department went to the scene at all is the next door neighbor was a subscriber and feared his home was going to become involved. If the house had burned and the neighbor hadn't gotten the fire department to come out, there would be no controversy. No fire protection, house burns, end of story.

The choice of not subscribing is a gamble. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. If you live in a flood plain and choose to not purchase flood insurance, you shouldn't expect to have your house repaired or rebuilt if it is flooded. If I choose to not carry comprehensive or collision insurance on my vehicles, I don't expect my insurance company to repair or replace the vehicle if it is stolen or crashed.

[PonyUP]

We are only hearing the man's side of it. I do find it odd that any firefighter would let someone's home burn to the ground. On the other hand, these brave men put their lives on the line and if this individual indeed refused to pay for 3 years running, even after officials visited his home, and he started the fire that got out of control, perhaps there is a painful lesson here in that you don't gamble with fire.

Of course without knowing all the facts, it is hard to have an informed opinion. I do feel for the animals, but at the same time I think there is a whole lot more to this story than we are hearing. Like I said, I don't know of any firefighter that even thinks about if someone is paid up when they go to a fire. They go there with the thought of going to work, so I think there is more to this.

[Paul T. Casey]

A lot of comments I see are obviously by urban dwellers. Out in the county it's different. We don't pay city taxes so we don't have free fire protection or trash pickup. Many of us don't have any fire protection available at all. Some of us have a subscription fire protection service available. Different local fire departments have varying policies. Some will not respond to a fire at all for a non-subscriber, others will respond but then charge the full expenses. These expenses are usually SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS, not two or three times the subscription fee.

The only reason the fire department went to the scene at all is the next door neighbor was a subscriber and feared his home was going to become involved. If the house had burned and the neighbor hadn't gotten the fire department to come out, there would be no controversy. No fire protection, house burns, end of story.

The choice of not subscribing is a gamble. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. If you live in a flood plain and choose to not purchase flood insurance, you shouldn't expect to have your house repaired or rebuilt if it is flooded. If I choose to not carry comprehensive or collision insurance on my vehicles, I don't expect my insurance company to repair or replace the vehicle if it is stolen or crashed.

I just hate it when Brian makes so much sense.

[Dr Caleb]

T a x e s !!!

The last time they tried to implement income tax in Tennessee, IIRC there were riots. Can't have it both ways - no income taxes, and free government services.

[Bluerauder]

We are only hearing the man's side of it. I do find it odd that any firefighter would let someone's home burn to the ground. On the other hand, these brave men put their lives on the line and if this individual indeed refused to pay for 3 years running, even after officials visited his home, and he started the fire that got out of control, perhaps there is a painful lesson here in that you don't gamble with fire.

Of course without knowing all the facts, it is hard to have an informed opinion. I do feel for the animals, but at the same time I think there is a whole lot more to this story than we are hearing. Like I said, I don't know of any firefighter that even thinks about if someone is paid up when they go to a fire. They go there with the thought of going to work, so I think there is more to this.

You should consider running for political office ..... :rolleyes: waffle, waffle, waffle .......

[Egon Spengler]

I hear this alot from young firefighters and I find it to be a disturbing attitude. Fires ain't fun. Fires wreck homes and families. If you get your kicks at fires, I recommend you get out of the business 'cause you are gonna get someone killed. :(

I come from a family with more than 130 years of Fire Department experience. Never once did I ever hear my father, my Grandfather, my uncles, my son-in-law or anyone ever say that Fire was fun. In fact, a perfect night for my Dad was to "Not Turn a Wheel".
Fun was the wrong word. More like earn my keep and protect my town. God forbid a fire happens, but if it does, I want to do my job that I signed up for. The job desciption is firefighter, not station maintenance man / janitor. If I see a fire, I am putting it out. Let the guy settle up in court the costs to have us put the fire out, don't just stand there and watch it burn! Fire is very dangerous and I respect it greatly. I know it is not fun, but it is a job that I signed up to do. Fee or no fee, I pull up on a scene, I am getting the job done. That is what I swore to do.

[TFB]

I think in a case like this they should put the fire out and then send him a bill for the real cost of fighting the fire. Then they are covered (both in fighting the fire and billing "Real Cost" services) either way. That makes alot more sense then sitting their watching the guys house burn down.
This is the view I have... If he didn't pay a levy could be placed on his property, county could sell it if necessary... Of course not knowing the local laws, maybe that isn't possible...

[Shora]

Breaks my heart to hear stories like these.

They just sat there and watched his house burn over a few bucks. You know why they are going to get their a$$ handed to them in court? Because this same Fire Department (if you can call it that) made exceptions in the past for people who didn't pay.

That alone, if it turns out to be fact, will lose them this case. Period.

Why not have a 911 fee next?

Didn't pay it for WHATEVER REASON? You're on your own.

Maybe they should issue a 911 insurance car (not unlike car insurance/ medical insurance) and when you call they look you up? Forgot to pay, couldn't pay? They can wish you good luck and hang up.

The guy offered to pay at the scene. The neighbor offered to pay over 5 times the amount.

Have a penalty, something, but if you cannot love your neighbor, at least don't hate him!

Cold. Plain cold hearted people.

[Bluerauder]

You know why they are going to get their a$$ handed to them in court? Because this same Fire Department (if you can call it that) made exceptions in the past for people who didn't pay.

That alone, if it turns out to be fact, will lose them this case. Period.

You are just speculating here ^^^^^. I have not seen that in any of the articles to date. It may be true; but I haven't heard or seen it. Still think that the guy does not have a leg to stand on in court. He made a decision on whether or not to pay the fee. He didn't. Everything else is immaterial. Case Closed.


Why not have a 911 fee next?

Check your phone bill. You may already be paying for 911 service. I am.

Oh yes, I got a bill from Fairfax County for a ride in their ambulance back in January 2010. $585.00 plus $10.00 per mile. That was for Basic Life Support (BLS). Advance Life Support (ALS) is higher.

[RR|Suki]

A lot of comments I see are obviously by urban dwellers. Out in the county it's different. We don't pay city taxes so we don't have free fire protection or trash pickup. Many of us don't have any fire protection available at all. Some of us have a subscription fire protection service available. Different local fire departments have varying policies. Some will not respond to a fire at all for a non-subscriber, others will respond but then charge the full expenses. These expenses are usually SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS, not two or three times the subscription fee.

The only reason the fire department went to the scene at all is the next door neighbor was a subscriber and feared his home was going to become involved. If the house had burned and the neighbor hadn't gotten the fire department to come out, there would be no controversy. No fire protection, house burns, end of story.

The choice of not subscribing is a gamble. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. If you live in a flood plain and choose to not purchase flood insurance, you shouldn't expect to have your house repaired or rebuilt if it is flooded. If I choose to not carry comprehensive or collision insurance on my vehicles, I don't expect my insurance company to repair or replace the vehicle if it is stolen or crashed.

^ end of thread.

[kernie]

Pay property taxes, city or country, that include all services, how could it be any more simple? Anything more is just adding layers.

:beer:

[Blackened300a]

Would you feel the same way if this was about Garbage Collection? Suppose your next door neighbor just decided that he wasn't going to pay the fee (or tax) for garbage collection. Do you think that he would be entitled to FREE collection services? Suppose he sneaked his garbage into your cans at night to circumvent the fee/tax by riding on your paid services. Suppose that your collection fees went up because your garbage was always twice as large as everyone else. Would that be fair? See any correlation there?

Suppose he just let his garbage build up in the side yard until it bacame a health and rodent hazard. Would you and your neighbors come to his rescue to pay his garbage collection fee?

Garbage is clutter and makes for a unhealthy living environment, fire takes all your worldly belongings, your shelter, your investments and completely destroys them. Its even sadder that innocent animals had to fall victim to this. I really think the fire department should have done their job and enforced fines and stiff penalties after the fact. I can't see how a man can standby and watch another mans possessions burn to the ground over the fact that he didn't pay his fee's. Im sure the guy would have gladly paid thousands of dollars in penalties rather then having to spend over 100K for a new house and never able to replace his valuables.

Let the courts decide, Im sure this will play out for quite a while.

[Shora]

You are just speculating here ^^^^^. I have not seen that in any of the articles to date. It may be true; but I haven't heard or seen it. Still think that the guy does not have a leg to stand on in court. He made a decision on whether or not to pay the fee. He didn't. Everything else is immaterial. Case Closed.

Actually, I saw an interview with the victom and HE stated it. Also, I added the "if what he says turns out to be true" comment.

Check your phone bill. You may already be paying for 911 service. I am.

I know I pay it. I also know that my county already taxes me for Fire and Police, etc. What's your point? What if I didn't have a phone or pay my phone bill. I would be denied 911 services when calling from someone elses phone? .


Oh yes, I got a bill from Fairfax County for a ride in their ambulance back in January 2010. $585.00 plus $10.00 per mile. That was for Basic Life Support (BLS). Advance Life Support (ALS) is higher.

Great, you got a bill. Just like I already said he should have. The point was that they didn't let you die until the bill was paid.

[BAD MERC]

This scenario has happened, medical services can be refused, ask me how I know.
Not if you came to this country on a floating door.

[tbone]

Freedom isn't free!!!

Let it burn!!!!

(You want it free? Go live in Canada!)

[youngrauderlvr]

I'm wondering if they came out b/c the man whose house was on fire called???? hmmmmmmmm?

[FordNut]

The most likely outcome from a lawsuit will be the city will stop offering subscription fire services to the county residents at any price. The city government has a responsibility to protect and serve the citizens who pay the city taxes.

[PonyUP]

You should consider running for political office ..... :rolleyes: waffle, waffle, waffle .......

:lol: Yup, was waffling a bit there. I find it hard to come down on firefighters because they give so much for so little. I think there is more to this as I jsut don't see them letting it burn for the sake of roasting some marshmellow's. If he ignored to pay the fee for 3 years, that was his choice, he gambled and lost. If you throw money down on a roulette table and decide after the spin that you should have bet the winning number, they don't give you your gamble back.

I do feel for the animals though

[Bluerauder]

Socialism only works until the other guy runs out of money. :rolleyes:

[Granddaddy Marq]

I think I would have driven their fire truck into the guy's burning house and see if they could put that out!

[Mr. Man]

911.....911 What's your emergency?

Man....My house is on fire.

911....Address?

Man.....123 Main St.

911....OK We'll be right there.


911... Squad 51 House fire at 123 Main St

Squad 51.... Rolling

911.... Squad 51 Fire fee not paid at 123 Main St.

Squad 51....Oh! OK We'll stop at the 7-11 and get marshmallows and coffee so we can watch it burn.


Truly a sad turn of events. We pay property taxes here(God do we pay property taxes in NJ) for Gov't services. We have a VFD but the township pays most of the bills. I have literally 100's of millions of dollars of VFD equipment with in a 20 Sq mile radius of me covered in millions of dollars of chrome that would make Doomies head explode. Only reason I can think of not to even try to put a house out is that it's to far gone and there isn't a sustainable water source to even try. I pity the poor animals who probably suffered and died because of a lousy 75 bucks. If the story stands as written those fire guys should be assamed of themselves.

My :twocents:

[Mad1]

There are several points that need to be added to this discussion.

First a bit of disclosure: I'm a Tennessean (adoptive, not native) and work in emergency management in the state, so I have close contact with other first responders (police, fire, EMS). I have no direct knowledge of the events, so what follows is general information, common knowledge that needs brought to your attention, or my own opinions.

There is more to the story, there always is. It involves politics, law and money, as do most public service debates.

This tragic event could have happened, and has happened, in the past, in many communities.

Several counties in Tennessee operate under similar policies to the one that led to this event. Basically, a tax-payer supported fire service (city F.D.) makes its services available to an unincorporated area outside the municipal boundary for a nominal annual charge. If the department responds to a subscriber's residence, then there is an additional premium ($500) charged to the property owner. If there is a life-safety threat (someone in the home), a response will be provided even to non-subscribers.

Tennessee state law makes it impossible to directly charge a homeowner after the fact for a response by a fire department, hence the subscription fee and premium.

Without the political will in a county to raise funds for such service through a general tax (property, for example), these subscriptions are the only way to make such service feasible to non-city residents. Tennessee has thousands of volunteer fire departments, but the days of supporting them with bake sales is definitely in the past.

The debate on whether to tax or offer subscription service has gone on for decades. This county in particular has been dealing with the issues since before 1987.


http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Fire-protection-plan-could-have-prevented-controversy-104544079.html
(http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Fire-protection-plan-could-have-prevented-controversy-104544079.html)

Obion County Commissioners wouldn't raise taxes to pay for a service that many were getting for free from nearby cities.

"Before, they never had to have a subscription. They came out anyway," said Chestean of the area fire departments.

But now times have changed. After the fire that destroyed Gene Cranick's home, the heat is on.



Cities are strapped for cash and services are being cut, reduced or eliminated.

With the negative publicity that this incident has received, there is fear that cities may decide stop providing any fire service through subscriptions, which would leave the county residents without any possibility of fire protection.

Issues like this are being debated at all levels of government.

How much service does government provide to a community and who is going to pay for that level of service? If you're not willing to pay to provide and maintain a service in your community, then should you really expect to get it when you need it?

Join the debate.

Mad1
Jeremy

[Vortex]

When I was teenager living in an unincorporated suburb of San Antonio I remember my Mom making damn sure that VFD decal (indicating you had paid your share) was clearly visible in the garage door window so as to avoid this sort of mess.

[secretservice]

All fire fighters are heroes, remember? Even the mafia ones running a protection racket.
Where is that cat stuck up the tree....
Sounds like the fire department just bought a house over a $75 dollar bill.
The homeowners will take them to court, and they will win, at a loss to the taxpayer.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx221/B_Oceander/GIF_Animations/Two_Cents_Worth.gif

[secretservice]

OK, two more cents. The Libertarian in me says "He should have paid the bill."
But the Human Being in me says "How could you let a man's home burn to the ground over $75?" I would not have let my neighbor's house burn for $75, but I would have told him that it was a loan, and he could mow my yard or whatever for the next mowing season to pay it off. We are human beings, we should care for each other.

[Spectragod]

ok, two more cents. The libertarian in me says "he should have paid the bill."
but the human being in me says "how could you let a man's home burn to the ground over $75?" i would not have let my neighbor's house burn for $75, but i would have told him that it was a loan, and he could mow my yard or whatever for the next mowing season to pay it off. We are human beings, we should care for each other.

+1,000,000

[rayjay]

Ya know, doesn't always seem to boil down to money in the good ole USA? Pityful state of affairs...

[magindat]

Awesome.

I think this was totally wrong and the firefighters should be prosecuted. The guy didn't REFUSE to pay, he just forgot and OFFERED to pay at the time.

What if a hospital refused medical treatment just because someone forgot to pay their insurance bill and that person died...think the lawyers would have a field day with that one?

I got about as far as this reply and have very simple solution...

Put the damn fire out. Charge the guy the 75 buck plus stiff interest for the period he was lapse (until paid) plus an emergency response fee. Then, if unpaid, lien the home (standard practice when you don't pay your garbage or water bill or taxes),

There. Now everybody is happy. House is saved. Government is not seen as unreasonable and letting property be destroyed and lives be lost. Would be fee dodgers are spooked in to paying now so they won't be slammed with a huge payment later.

Further. What if sick Grandma was in the house and could not get out?! Would she burn mercilessly with the dogs and cats?!

I think at the very least, the FD should be charged with animal cruelty in this case.

Lastly, this would NEVER fly in Florida due to insurance laws. This practice would be seen as a form of insurance, for which the FD would have to be licensed insurance provider.

This story is total bullcrap and should this behavior should not be condoned by anyone. Period. There are just too many ways to have worked it out reasonably.

[magindat]

Being a firefighter, I don't care what the deal is, I swore to protect people and their property. Let them work it out after the fact with fees and what not. I could not sit there and watch a house burn! I want to have some fun! haha

Thank you..

[secretservice]

Any job you must be sworn into has obligations, and a firefighter's obligation is to put out a fire when called to do so. They are trusted members of the community, just like police, emt's, coast guard, nat'l guard, etc. I have a problem thinking that if I call 911 they will review my tax records before responding to my LIFE AND DEATH situation.

[Joe Walsh]

I think in a case like this they should put the fire out and then send him a bill for the real cost of fighting the fire. Then they are covered (both in fighting the fire and billing "Real Cost" services) either way. That makes alot more sense then sitting their watching the guys house burn down.


A lot of comments I see are obviously by urban dwellers. Out in the county it's different. We don't pay city taxes so we don't have free fire protection or trash pickup. Many of us don't have any fire protection available at all. Some of us have a subscription fire protection service available. Different local fire departments have varying policies. Some will not respond to a fire at all for a non-subscriber, others will respond but then charge the full expenses. These expenses are usually SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS, not two or three times the subscription fee.
The only reason the fire department went to the scene at all is the next door neighbor was a subscriber and feared his home was going to become involved. If the house had burned and the neighbor hadn't gotten the fire department to come out, there would be no controversy. No fire protection, house burns, end of story.

The choice of not subscribing is a gamble. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. If you live in a flood plain and choose to not purchase flood insurance, you shouldn't expect to have your house repaired or rebuilt if it is flooded. If I choose to not carry comprehensive or collision insurance on my vehicles, I don't expect my insurance company to repair or replace the vehicle if it is stolen or crashed.

That's what they should have done...
Put out the fire and then billed the guy for all the expenses*, plus a penalty fee for not paying his yearly subscription fee.
It would have been win-win.
He gets his house, all his belongings and his pets saved.
The Firefighters get all their expenses paid.

* As Brian noted, It wouldn't be cheap!
What's a Firetruck cost to run per mile?
What's all the wear & tear on the equipment cost?
What does all the Firefighters wages cost?
Throw in a $1,000 fine to "encourage" the guy to pay his subscription on time.

[secretservice]

If you live in a flood plain and choose to not purchase flood insurance, you shouldn't expect to have your house repaired or rebuilt if it is flooded.
Humans can't "put out" a flood.

[FordNut]

Humans can't "put out" a flood.

But they can pay for insurance. If they don't, they're SOL.

[FordNut]

Maybe we should all quit paying our car insurance until we have a wreck, then try to renew and pay a late penalty.

[secretservice]

Fire and flood are two different things... Fire is controllable, and flood is basically not. I don't live in a rural area, but I have learned a bit of how the rural fire departments run through this discussion. I may not agree with it, but the general consensus is that the homeowner could have been billed, and if the bill had not been paid, a lean could be put on the property. Auto repair shops do the same thing. Car breaks down, gets fixed by shop, shop is out the money until the bill is paid. If the bill is not paid, the car belongs to the shop via mechanic's lien. THAT is a good example, not the flood thing.

[FordNut]

Fire and flood are two different things... Fire is controllable, and flood is basically not. I don't live in a rural area, but I have learned a bit of how the rural fire departments run through this discussion. I may not agree with it, but the general consensus is that the homeowner could have been billed, and if the bill had not been paid, a lean could be put on the property. Auto repair shops do the same thing. Car breaks down, gets fixed by shop, shop is out the money until the bill is paid. If the bill is not paid, the car belongs to the shop via mechanic's lien. THAT is a good example, not the flood thing.

So you put a lein on a burned out hulk of a building, that the mortgage company has first rights on, and the owner is probably upside down on the mortgage anyway. Great business model, I'm glad you're not my CEO or CFO.

[secretservice]

Ok then... claim home-owner's and build a new house. :fishslap:

[FordNut]

Assuming he had adequate insurance, and he is not found to be at fault for intentionally starting the fire, and the insurance policy didn't have a clause that required him to voluntarily subscribe to the fire protection plan...

Then I personally would much prefer a total new construction over the repaired fire, smoke, and water damaged house.

[secretservice]

Then I personally would much prefer a total new construction over the repaired fire, smoke, and water damaged house.
Agreed.


and the insurance policy didn't have a clause that required him to voluntarily subscribe to the fire protection plan...
That happens? And I lol'd a little @ the "voluntary requirement"...

[FordNut]

[QUOTE=FordNut;966820] and the insurance policy didn't have a clause that required him to voluntarily subscribe to the fire protection plan...

That happens? And I lol'd a little @ the "voluntary requirement"...

Yes. Subscription is voluntary. But subscription is required as a precondition for insurance coverage.

It would be a lot easier if the insurance company could charge the subscription fee then pass that payment along to the fire department, but that isn't legal.

[secretservice]

It would be a lot easier if the insurance company could charge the subscription fee then pass that payment along to the fire department, but that isn't legal.

Because of conflict of interest, or the fact that the Fire Dept. could now be considered "insurance"?

[Mr. Man]

I think a major sticking point here is that the fire company responded to the fire then sat around and watched the house burn. Seems to me if the guy didn't pay his subscription payment the fire co shouldn't have driven out in the first place. Once they arrived on scene, their expertise on fire suppression I would think makes them culpable.

[FordNut]

I think a major sticking point here is that the fire company responded to the fire then sat around and watched the house burn. Seems to me if the guy didn't pay his subscription payment the fire co shouldn't have driven out in the first place. Once they arrived on scene, their expertise on fire suppression I would think makes them culpable.

First, they didn't respond to the primary fire since he wasn't a subscriber, so as you suggested they didn't drive out there in the first place.
Second, they did respond to the spreading fire because it was spreading to a subscriber's property and they did do as they are required, suppress the fire from damaging the subscriber's property.
Third, He didn't just forget to pay his subscription, he refused to pay it after numerous reminders and attempts to get him to pay.

[Bluerauder]

First, they didn't respond to the primary fire since he wasn't a subscriber, so as you suggested they didn't drive out there in the first place.
Second, they did respond to the spreading fire because it was spreading to a subscriber's property and they did do as they are required, suppress the fire from damaging the subscriber's property.
Third, He didn't just forget to pay his subscription, he refused to pay it after numerous reminders and attempts to get him to pay.

Yep, seems pretty cut and dry to me. Is it an unfortunate situation? .... Yes. But in this particular case ..... the homeowner "Screwed the Pooch". He made a conscious decision NOT TO PAY the fee that the rest of his neighbors were paying. Guess his luck ran out and his gamble came up 'snake eyes'. Bad decisions have consequences. Unfortunately, many seem to think that the Government has a responsibility to step in when the individual doesn't fullfill his obligations or acts irresponsibly. Too many people expect something for nothing..... Just Looking to 'Get Over'.

It has been interesting reading the variety of opinions here and how some would want to suspend logic because they feel badly for the guy. The truth is that the fire service system in that county would collapse if it weren't supported by 98% of the residents. Then no one would have fire protection. If one person can get away without paying, why not 2, 3, 4, ......... See where that leads?

Maybe he learned a valuable lesson? I doubt it. He'll be in court looking for someone to cover his self-made problem.