Am I wrong to be upset?

[Darrin]

Here in Indiana today we had some severe weather. Multiple tornado warnings were issued, but thankfully there were maybe only a very few instances of very small tornadoes that actually occurred.

Here is my beef. I was at home sick as a dog today. That isn't the issue, but it does piss me off in general so I might be a little touchy. Our 13y/o came home from school and I asked her where she was 'during the tornado' and she said she was in the office at school which is her designated safe area. I then picked up the 8y/o from after school care and asked him the same question. He said that they didn't have a tornado where he was. I explained that I was just kidding and asked him what they did during the warning and he sais that they did nothing. The teacher told the class that there was a drill but they cancelled it. The kids heard the sirens and there was a tornado warning issued for where his school is. But the school did nothing. They left the kids in classrooms that had windows and even in stick frame and vinyl siding classrooms built to handle the massive growth in the area recently.

Am I wrong to be pissed? Not sure what to do yet, but I don't think I can do nothing.

Darrin

[fastblackmerc]

Voice your concern to the principal, school board, etc.

[SID210SA]

I would be pissed too.....I would contact the Principle, then the Superintendent of the school district.....if I got no where there I would go to the local news station....I know they would get answers.

[PonyUP]

Definitely be pissed and voice that to any school official that will listen. This isn't like the nuclear warnings of the 60's where getting under a desk will not save your life in the event of a nuclear attack.

these tornado drills can and will save lives and shame on the school for thinking the sirens are the boy that cried wolf.

I don't even have kids and I am pissed just hearing this. :mad2:

[sailsmen]

Ask for a copy of the schools procedure for bad weather. It should be public record. If they refuse do a freedom of info request.

[CBT]

I would be upset, especially if the sirens were blaring and they did nothing. Kids cannot protect themselves, that's what concerned adults/parents are for.

[Darrin]

The school policies are online and say that it is a matter of Indiana law. The Indiana law on the matter also happens to be online. With those things in hand as reference, it appears that someone really screwed up. This was a tornado warning, the school system is well wthin the area of the warning and the warning specifially said the following.

THIS LINE OF THUNDERSTORMS IS CAPABLE OF PRODUCING TORNADOES AND
WIDESPREAD SIGNIFICANT WIND DAMAGE. DO NOT WAIT TO SEE OR HEAR THE
TORNADO. FOR YOUR PROTECTION MOVE TO AN INTERIOR ROOM ON THE LOWEST
FLOOR OF YOUR HOME OR BUSINESS

I don't care if the adults want to hop up in the roof to look and take pictures or even dance nakedwhile doing it as long as it's out of the sight of the kids and the kids are in safe places. My opinion is that in the case of kids you err on the side of safety.

I need to find a way to make more of the parents aware of this. At this school speaking out alone only results in the kid taking the brunt of it.

Darrin

[SpartaPerformance]

I would be pissed too! Why would they care? Not their kids. Gov't employees suck!!!

[sailsmen]

Go to the principal and just ask questions. What was the weather on x date, what was the schools procedure, what was done with the children, ect.

If you are not satisfied go to your rep on the school board.

They don't want to mess up it just makes more work for them.

If you try to rally the parents first the Principal will view you as a trouble maker and may take it out on your kids.

You never know he may say they messed up and they won't do it again.

[DeadVic]

you're damn right to be pissed as a parent and a taxpayer. As a parent for obvious reasons. as a taxpayer, can you imagine the money the bloodsucker lawyers would seek if someone was hurt due to the administration's inaction?

[Darrin]

There were 6 tornadoes that touched down in Indiana today according to the news and I counted 12 warnings, so 50/50.

I'm sorry if it ruffles someones undergarments, but I am going to do something about this. The law says that there are procedures that must be followed. It isn't a suggestion or something to think about. When the warning sounds you ge the kids to safety. NOW!

What concerns me as well here is that the law says the teachers are to get the students to safety in the event that the system fails. What does it tell you that the teachers chose to leave the students in peril rather than to question the 'authority'?

I mean the kids heard the sirens and asked about getting into the hall. Ours said that he was told that it was a drill that was cancelled.

Something is very wrong here and the more I think about it the more concerned and pissed off I am getting.

God I hope the news gets ahold of this.

Darrin

[Bigdogjim]

Check and see which TV news crew does the best investation work and contact them and ask them to do a atory on the event.

For example on my area Phia. metro it is Fox 29.:)

[Pat]

Darrin;

Organize. PTA, Citizens committee, call it what you will.

There is strength in numbers. We had a major issue with our city council some years back and they were not responding.

A couple of concerned citizens, lawyers by trade, put up some flyer's, held a public meeting in a school gym and the rest is history. City Council members were now a whole lot more receptive.

It didn't take long before the committee grew, talented people joined, and now the elected officials from senators to fire chiefs vie to speak at our general meetings to get in tune with the electorate.

Representative committee members address city council meetings often.

One parent may not be able to do it alone, like one drop of water, but put many drops of water together and you have a river that cannot be ignored.

[Local Boy]

If it happened the way everyone is portraying it...Then yeah, I would be concerned..

Although, may I propose that perhaps the teachers did do what was needed, but did it in a way where they did not scare the children. It is very common for the children to not know the real dangers that are possible for their own emotional sake, while the staff are working diligently to keep them safe. Some teachers of young children turn it into a game as to not give fear to the child. Just a thought before you go storming in the school office.

Aloha

[Zack]

Considering who the father is, I wouldnt trust anything that comes out of the kid's mouth.

[Darrin]

If it happened the way everyone is portraying it...Then yeah, I would be concerned..

Although, may I propose that perhaps the teachers did do what was needed, but did it in a way where they did not scare the children. It is very common for the children to not know the real dangers that are possible for their own emotional sake, while the staff are working diligently to keep them safe. Some teachers of young children turn it into a game as to not give fear to the child. Just a thought before you go storming in the school office.

Aloha

I have talked to several parents and the kids are all saying the same thing. There can be no argument that there was a tornado warning issued for the area of the school. All of the kids from the rest of the schools in the area said they were instructed to get into the designated storm areas. The sirens sounded and the kids heard those sirens. Ours was curious that he heard the sirens and nobody did the things they had been told to do when they hear those sirens. He said that when he asked what was going on that he was told it was a drill that had been cancelled.

Another parent that I talked to brought up the thing about not scaring the children. To which I immediately replied "So it's better to have calm dead kids?" I shouldn't have been so blunt because that upset her, but that stopped that line of thinking right there. She said "Oh my God! This is one of those 'it happens to other people' things isn't it?"

The whole reason for the drills they do at school is to teach the kids how to react in these situations. Those drills not only are designed to teach the kids what to do, they are supposed to help maintain calm in an event where they need to do these things. In this instance the kids were shown that it's ok to ignore the warning sirens.

To the point about not wanting to upset the kids, I absolutely think that is what happened here. I think someone didn't want to upset the kids and have to deal with that for the rest of the day. That thinking is not acceptable. In doing this, whoever made that call decided they knew better than NOAA and the established system and this is specifically what has me the most outraged. The audacity of that is unbelievable. People who are put into these positions absolutely cannot have that mentality.

I'm sorry. I don't want anyone having the authority to think they know better than NOAA about whether there will be a tornado or not when the safety of others is at stake. When NOAA sounds the alarm the law says that actions need to be taken. Someone chose not to take those actions. This time it turned out ok, but that doesn't make it ok.

To resolve this, someone needs to just step up and admit a mistake was made, explain to the kids that this isn't what you do in these situations and reassure the parents that this isn't what they can expect in the future. It's just that simple and I hope it is addressed that way.

Oh, and on the news thing. While I definitely hope they get ahold of it regardless of where this goes, I am not the one to go there until all other means have been exhausted. I will head to the principals office and voice my concerns and take it through those channels before I would go to that extreme. And, I would only go there if it is proven out that this happened the way that it appears where someone made a decision that went against required safety protocol and following the line of authority dead ended with no reasonable resolution. If it werent dealing with the safety of our children then I wouldn't even consider doing that. There are other ways.

Darrin

[Darrin]

Considering who the father is, I wouldnt trust anything that comes out of the kid's mouth.

You don't know his father. So, as usual you are spewing harmless venom about something that you know nothing at all about and doing it only to draw attention to your otherwise pointless existence.

With that, since this wasn't your kid we are talking about here, that improves the chances that one can believe anything that comes out of his mouth by such an exponential factor that it is unimaginable for the human mind.

[Zack]

You don't know his father. So, as usual you are spewing harmless venom about something that you know nothing at all about and doing it only to draw attention to your otherwise pointless existence.

With that, since this wasn't your kid we are talking about here, that improves the chances that one can believe anything that comes out of his mouth by such an exponential factor that it is unimaginable for the human mind.

Go build a transmission that works will ya

[sailsmen]

Considering who the father is, I wouldnt trust anything that comes out of the kid's mouth.

Who is the father? I am confused.:confused:

[sailsmen]

If this is a personal dispute I don't want to be involved, I was just trying to provide some advice.

[Zack]

Ok Ok Im out of line.
Its hard to forget when someone tells you they are suing you for your Home and all your cars.

Carry on.

[duhtroll]

Considering the kid said "they didn't have a tornado where he was," that could very well be accurate.

We have technology that shows down to the city block where tornadoes are. We also have dozens of adults out in front of houses and buildings with cameras.

We ALSO have a media that wants attention and tends to exaggerate.

A lot. Yes, even in supposed safety situations. The media cries "wolf" too.

Having been through several tornadoes (and fires, etc.) while in schools over the last 20 years, school officials I have worked with have been accurate in knowing what is safe for the kids and what is not. I would be willing to bet that if the school principal or person in charge said there is no tornado, there probably wasn't one.

If the schools are like the ones I have been in, there is always one "tech nerd" on staff who gets unnecessarily excited every time there is snow in the forecast. Lots of schools have their own weather radars and can be more accurate than the news by virtue of proximity.

Look it up. Find the path of the actual tornado. It obviously did not hit the school or we would have a different thread. If it was arguably close to the school building, you have a definite gripe. If not, it looks like the school officials made the right call.

[sailsmen]

Per Wikki - "A tornado warning (SAME code: TOR) is an alert issued by government weather services to warn that tornadoes may be imminent. It can be issued after a tornado or funnel cloud has been spotted by eye, or more commonly if there are radar indications of tornado formation. When this happens, the tornado sirens may start going off in that area, letting people know that a tornado was seen or is forming nearby. Issuance of a tornado warning indicates that residents should take immediate safety precautions."

[Darrin]

Ok, this is my son by marriage. Not that this matters at all, because he and his sister are no less my children than the one that I physically fathered.

But that doesn't matter at all for this discussion because this is about the safety of children.

Here is what I have found out this morning so far.

My wife emailed the superintendant of schools about this and got a reply saying that the kids in the middle and high schools were sent to their safe areas because the sirens sounded for that area. The kids at North Madison were left in class because the sirens there didn't sound.

At this point I went to find the fire chief to see about why the sirens didn't go off. Guess what, the main Madison Township firehouse has been closed due to budget cuts. I can't get ahold of the fire chief.

Next I called the Morgan county Sheriff's office and they said they are not in charge of this. They told me to call the Mooresville police. Now I know they are not in charge of Madison either and don't know how helpful they might be so instead I headed to the Brown Township fire department to talk to the chief there and ask where to find who I needed to talk to in Madison since they work very closely together. There they told me that the sirens actually didn't sound anywhere in their areas, even in Mooresville where the superintendant said that they had, and that the sirens people heard in both places were from surrounding areas. He said that it was being looked into and that it was absolutely a problem that had to be addressed.

Looks like a system failure. What bothers me now is that someone made the call to put kids in some schools in their safe areas and didn't do that at others. The excuse that the sirens went off in some places and not in others is invalid because, according to what I am being told, none of the sirens in these areas went off.

So hell, I don't know.

[Motorhead350]

Ok Ok Im out of line.
Its hard to forget when someone tells you they are suing you for your Home and all your cars.

Carry on.

You're in the 10s.

[secretservice]

Definitely be pissed and voice that to any school official that will listen. This isn't like the nuclear warnings of the 60's where getting under a desk will not save your life in the event of a nuclear attack.

these tornado drills can and will save lives and shame on the school for thinking the sirens are the boy that cried wolf.

I don't even have kids and I am pissed just hearing this. :mad2:

I have kids, and the first thing my 1st grader talked about when she came home was the drill. Out in the hall face to butt with hands over their necks. I live in Indy, and I watched the storm roll RIGHT THROUGH Martinsville on tv. If there was even a chance of danger the Principal of the school should have made the call, sirens or not. There were warnings all over tv and radio the whole time. System Fail.

[secretservice]

Oh, and there wasn't a tornado here either. But would you want that on your head if you decided not to exercise the tornado procedure and kids got injured or killed? Tornadoes touch down fast, and many times without warning.

[secretservice]

Darrin, where does she go to school?

[secretservice]

Not sure if you'd mentioned it...

[duhtroll]

Wait a sec -- you don't get to bash government in every other thread you have posted in and then tell me we need to listen to them. :P (yeah, I know "not every")

Pick one. :D

As for the OP, I stand by my first claim. Show me the path of the tornado in relation to the school. IF the tornado was anywhere near the school, I'll stand with you and denounce the school, warning system, public safety, whoever was responsible.

But if there wasn't any evidence of said tornado, I still say the school officials aren't at fault.


Per Wikki - "A tornado warning (SAME code: TOR) is an alert issued by government weather services to warn that tornadoes may be imminent. It can be issued after a tornado or funnel cloud has been spotted by eye, or more commonly if there are radar indications of tornado formation. When this happens, the tornado sirens may start going off in that area, letting people know that a tornado was seen or is forming nearby. Issuance of a tornado warning indicates that residents should take immediate safety precautions."

[Leadfoot281]

Hmmm, government schools and government weather service. Sounds like neither one works very well. Why am I not surprised?

[Egon Spengler]

As for the OP, I stand by my first claim. Show me the path of the tornado in relation to the school. IF the tornado was anywhere near the school, I'll stand with you and denounce the school, warning system, public safety, whoever was responsible.
You can't predict where things are going to wind up weather wise. You are looking at it after the fact. Who cares where the tornado wound up going after the fact!?! The fact is that there were tornadoes and there was a warning. Necessary measures should be taken just in case because mother nature is UNPREDICTABLE! What happens if and when this happens again and they followed the same procedure and the tornadoes hit and people are injured? I am sure Darrin would regret not bringing it to their attention that this happened! Someone needs to know. Noone needs to get fired or anything and you don't need to fly off the handle, but try and speak with someone RATIONALLY that great strides should have been taken. There is no step too big when it comes to the safety of people.

[Darrin]

Well, the biological father got involved. He used to be a firefighter here and because of that he went stright to the local news last night apparently. They were at the schools today and have been running around town interviewing everyone that has anything to do with those sirens.

It now has a whole new life of it's own and I am not getting involved in that mess.

Darrin

[sailsmen]

Wait a sec -- you don't get to bash government in every other thread you have posted in and then tell me we need to listen to them. :P (yeah, I know "not every")

Pick one. :D

As for the OP, I stand by my first claim. Show me the path of the tornado in relation to the school. IF the tornado was anywhere near the school, I'll stand with you and denounce the school, warning system, public safety, whoever was responsible.

But if there wasn't any evidence of said tornado, I still say the school officials aren't at fault.

So if it's a near miss it doesn't count or matter? :mad2: Since no one knows where the Tornado will go or where it will form the warning is for the area where it is likely to strike.

Where have I told you to listen to Gov't?:D

I have always advocted that children should not listen to their teachers in times of emergency? That adults should not listen to the police, firemen, EMT or other first responders?:lol:

Where have I said we should not listen to Gov't in times of an emergency when Gov't workers are trying to help you?:lol:

Having lived through the greatest failure of Gov't to respond to an emergency in USA history I know something about the failures of Gov't and the human suffering that results.:bigcry: Books and movies have been made about it, no reason for me to elaborate.

[Darrin]

Well there it was big as life on the news at 6pm. Finger pointing and all. The school said they followed the rules, said that the siren by the school didn't go off and that the tv in the school that they were monitoring the weather on went out during the storm. The fire department said that the siren failed but that it had worked in a test the previous Friday at 11am even though the students who were asked don't remember the siren ever going off for any test at any time. Apparently the siren is very quiet or the students are deaf, dunno. The fire department also said that they are not responsible for maintaining the siren because it was erected using private donations. The person in charge of that said that she had no idea that it wasn't working and that she would look into it.

According to what was said, there were multiple failures of not only hardware, but communication and procedure as well. And, there is a whole lot more to the story that didn't make TV according to the guy that talked to them.

Everyone agreed that what happend was definitely wrong. They also all said they did their job and nobody will take the blame. Typical small town politics...

Darrin

[duhtroll]

All of this discussion is after the fact, not just my conclusion.

A tornado didn't hit the school. I am assuming since we have heard nothing more about location there was not one close, either.

In order for your point to be valid, you would have to prove that either:

1) A tornado was close to the school (meaning the school officials :censor:edup by ignoring it) or...

2) They had no idea where it was (if there was one) and just guessed things were OK, which is going to be very difficult to prove.

Otherwise you have to assume they knew it was no real danger to the school.

Questioning them now is all well and good, but there is no reason to overreact.


You can't predict where things are going to wind up weather wise. You are looking at it after the fact. Who cares where the tornado wound up going after the fact!?! The fact is that there were tornadoes and there was a warning. Necessary measures should be taken just in case because mother nature is UNPREDICTABLE! What happens if and when this happens again and they followed the same procedure and the tornadoes hit and people are injured? I am sure Darrin would regret not bringing it to their attention that this happened! Someone needs to know. Noone needs to get fired or anything and you don't need to fly off the handle, but try and speak with someone RATIONALLY that great strides should have been taken. There is no step too big when it comes to the safety of people.

[duhtroll]

No one said it was a near miss. Like I said, show me that it was, and I will agree with you.

Actually, we do know a lot about where tornadoes will go and where they will form. We see it every spring, in vivid detail.

We are talking about tornadoes, not hurricanes.


So if it's a near miss it doesn't count or matter? :mad2: Since no one knows where the Tornado will go or where it will form the warning is for the area where it is likely to strike.

Where have I told you to listen to Gov't?:D

I have always advocted that children should not listen to their teachers in times of emergency? That adults should not listen to the police, firemen, EMT or other first responders?:lol:

Where have I said we should not listen to Gov't in times of an emergency when Gov't workers are trying to help you?:lol:

Having lived through the greatest failure of Gov't to respond to an emergency in USA history I know something about the failures of Gov't and the human suffering that results.:bigcry: Books and movies have been made about it, no reason for me to elaborate.

[PonyUP]

We are talking about tornadoes, not hurricanes.


Think you got those two confused, hurricanes we get like 5 days notice where they will hit, with tornado's you're lucky to get 5 minutes. Wouldn't you say though troll, that with kids and knowing the severe storms in the area and tornado watches as well as tornado warnings, that it would just be best to error on the side of caution. It worked out fine this time, but having seen a town destroyed first hand by a twister that came out of nowhere (Plainfield Illionois in the early 90's) I can tell you that you can never be too safe. Just my opinion, but I think the school errored here. Yes it's easy to look at it in hindsight, but it's also just as easy to run the drill and try to protect the kids. Just my two cents.

[Local Boy]

Sorry Darin,

It was not my intention to minimize the situation...I just wanted to give you a balanced view, so that you could better address the situation.

Glad your children are OK, and I hope the warning system is repaired soon, over there.

Aloha

[Darrin]

Sorry Darin,

It was not my intention to minimize the situation...I just wanted to give you a balanced view, so that you could better address the situation.

Glad your children are OK, and I hope the warning system is repaired soon, over there.

Aloha

I didn't take it that you were, so no worries.

It's just like was mentioned above though. People who are not familiar with tornadoes really just aren't familiar with them and anyone who thinks these are storms that can be accurately forecast to predict specifically when and where they will strike needs more education. They are not at all like hurricanes. Tornadoes are things that strike with little to no warning. Watches can be posted hours in advance but when it comes to an actual tornado itself, you are lucky to have minutes of warning. From what I am finding they are bragging that they have gotten the average warning time up to 15 minutes now.

If that warning is ignored or not known about though then what good is it? In this case there was a warning. But, due to failures of the systems in place the things that were supposed to be done to best insure the safety of the children in that school, as mandated by law, didn't happen.

I don't know how I feel about the school yet. From all appearances nobody there intentionally did anything wrong where they just ignored the warning. Instead it appears that there was a failure to have adequate procedures in place to insure that they recieved the warning. According to the school spokesperson who was interviewed, they didn't even know that there was a tornado warning for their area. She said in the interview that "The siren wasn't working. The staff was also monitoring cable television and that went out as well," The failure I see on their part there is that at that point they just simply did nothing further procedurally. That is erring in the wrong direction when it comes to lives and safety. But, between having a new principal and most likely having nothing about what to do next in 'the book' on that specific situation, I can see how that happened. Doesn't make it ok or right, it just means that it appears that nothing was intentionally done wrong where some mental midget with a cavalier attitude was thinking that they knew better than the National Weather Service about whether there was going to be a tornado or not there that day.

But, I bet this doesn't ever happen again there and that is what matters most.

Oh, and the confirmed count is now that there 8 tornadoes here yesterday and that was out of 12 warnings. Fortunately these were all small tornadoes where nobody got killed or seriously injured. There is a lot of property damage though for sure.

[duhtroll]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

On the last day of school a few years ago, we had a tornado warning. We had to hold the kids for almost an hour after the school day when all they wanted to do was leave and parents wanted to pick kids up. We had lots of cars sitting outside the school with parents complaining that we wouldn't let the kids go. Never mind the idiocy of the parents sitting out on the street with a tornado a couple miles away.

We finally told parents you must come into the school to pick up your child since we weren't in classrooms that weren't designated shelter areas and needed some way to track kids.

Once we were certain the tornado had passed, we let the kids go that had parents call in or were riding buses. Others we stayed with until around 5, but there were still warnings in effect.

We get yelled at no matter what we do.

I was less than 2 miles from an EF5 that destroyed Parkersburg 2 years ago, and I have seen more than my fair share of tornado destruction. We even took a day from school to make food for the Parkersburg residents, help clean up, etc. that year. The tornado ran right through the center of town, destroying the school, so all the area schools pitched in to help out.

The school did what they could do with the information they had. If they say it is safe and it turns out to actually be safe, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt until you can prove that they just got lucky.


Think you got those two confused, hurricanes we get like 5 days notice where they will hit, with tornado's you're lucky to get 5 minutes. Wouldn't you say though troll, that with kids and knowing the severe storms in the area and tornado watches as well as tornado warnings, that it would just be best to error on the side of caution. It worked out fine this time, but having seen a town destroyed first hand by a twister that came out of nowhere (Plainfield Illionois in the early 90's) I can tell you that you can never be too safe. Just my opinion, but I think the school errored here. Yes it's easy to look at it in hindsight, but it's also just as easy to run the drill and try to protect the kids. Just my two cents.

[Darrin]

Well, nobody is trying to sue anybody. All that has happened is that we parents wanted answers and assurance that they are willing to do everything reasonable and appropriate to keep our kids safe. The initial answers from everyone were nothing but BS finger pointing.

Absolutely to the schools credit now though, the school system spokesperson has finally said that things went wrong, mistakes were made and that they are going to work with local and state officials to both remedy the failures and address any needed procedural changes to insure the safety of everyone in and on school system property.

This answer would have been completely appropriate and satisfactory if it would have been anywhere close to the initial response to any parent who asked. Unfortunately it took drawing media attention to it to make that happen. Which, in my opinion, can do a LOT more harm than good and is why I would consider that the last resort.

Actually, I think it sucks that the media was called in so soon. I know I wished for it, but that was my own knee jerk. I would like to think that if there would have had time for everyone to talk to each other and get over their knee jerk finger pointing then cooler heads might have prevailed and an official statement could have been sent to the parents.

Maybe if the spokesperson would have initially just said something similar to "We are aware of the situation and are looking into it. However, we want to assure parents that the safety of their children is as great of a concern for us as it is to them" instead of saying that the "siren didn't go off and the cable went out" then things would have gone differently. That was a huge mistake right there.

Darrin