test scores don't equal education

[duhtroll]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china-education-20110113,0,6192691.story

By Megan K. Stack, Los Angeles Times

January 13, 2011

Reporting from Shanghai —
Chinese adolescence is known as a time of scant whimsy: Students rise at dawn, disappear into school until dinnertime and toil into the late night over homework in preparation for university entrance exams that can make or break their future.

So it came as little surprise when international education assessors announced last month that students in Shanghai had outperformed the rest of the industrialized world in standardized exams in math, reading and science.

But even as some parents in the West wrung their hands, fretting over an education gap, Chinese commentators reacted to the results with a bout of soul-searching and even an undertone of embarrassment rarely seen in a country that generally delights in its victories on the international stage.

"I carry a strong feeling of bitterness," Chen Weihua, an editor at the state-run China Daily, wrote in a first-person editorial. "The making of superb test-takers comes at a high cost, often killing much of, if not all, the joy of childhood."

In a sense, this is the underbelly of a rising China: the fear that schools are churning out generations of unimaginative worker bees who do well on tests. The government has laid out an ambitious set of plans for education reform by 2020, but so far it's not clear how complete or wide-ranging the changes will be — or whether they will ease the immense pressure on teens in families hungry for a place in the upper or middle class.

"We have seen the advantages and the disadvantages of our education system, and our students' abilities are still weak," said Xiong Bingqi, an education expert at Shanghai's Jiao Tong University. "They do very well in those subjects the teacher assigns them. They have huge vocabularies and they do math well. However, the level of their creativity and imagination is low.

"In the long run, for us to become a strong country, we need talent and great creativity," Xiong said. "And right now, our educational system cannot accomplish this."

Maybe so, said Zhang Minxuan, an education expert who oversaw the Program for International Student Assessment testing in Shanghai. But he argued against despair. After all, he said, Chinese officials are clear-eyed about their weaknesses.

"We have a lot of things to study from the rest of the world," Zhang said. "We know much more about recent developments in education research than the people in the other countries themselves. If we think it may be useful, we'll introduce it to our students, no matter what country it's from. We are very, very open-minded."

But Zhang also pointed out the implied embarrassments of the examination results: The Shanghai students who triumphed in the tests enjoy the very best China's uneven schools can offer. Their experience has little in common with those of their peers in rural schools, or the makeshift migrant schools of the big cities, not to mention the armies of teenagers who abandon secondary school in favor of the factory floor.

And even in the rarefied world of the Shanghai high schools, teachers and administrators are concerned about the single-minded obsession with examinations.

At Zhabei No. 8, a public school on the northern edge of Shanghai's downtown, administrators spoke cautiously of the students' success in the international tests. Nearly 200 students took the exams last spring; afterward, they told their teachers that the questions had been simple.

"We are fully aware of the situation: Their creativity is lacking. They suffer very poor health, they are not strong and they get injured easily," vice principal Chen Ting said. "We're calling on all relevant parties to reduce the burden on our students."

For centuries, stretching back to the days when far-flung scholars trudged dutifully to the capital for the emperor's examinations, the standardized test has held a cherished place in Chinese society, both a tribute to discipline and a great leveling tool among disparate classes and regions.

Today, the examination faced at the end of high school is considered the great maker, and breaker, of careers, determining which university, if any, a student may attend.

There's no spare time for hanging out with friends or volunteer work; forget about clubs or sports. Weekends are spent sharpening academic weak spots in paid tutoring sessions.

"This is an important year for me," said 17-year-old Lei Lina, who is preparing to take the entrance examination in the summer. "My dreams, my future — everything depends upon it."

Parents who obeyed China's one-child policy whisper to their lone offspring that the family's destiny hangs on the test score. Teachers drive the point home. The school curriculum is carefully tailored years in advance to mold students into expert test-takers.

Xia Jing was among the students who sat for the international tests. At 17, she carries the weight of her family's ambition. If she scores high enough in China's university entrance exam, she'll be the first in her family to go to college.

"I definitely have to go to university," she says, setting her jaw. "It's my parents' hope."

Xia spends her weekends, and her family's spare cash, attending tutoring sessions to help prepare her for the examination. Every night before she goes to sleep, she counts the days left before she'll take the test.

"Sometimes I have wild thoughts," she says. "If I do well, what will happen? If I fail, how will I plan for the future?"

megan.stack@latimes.com

Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times

[sailsmen]

How can individual thought exist in a Communist Country that imprisons and excutes those that express individual thoughts?

I lived in a city where for 35 years students graduated from HS, many with all A's and B's, who were unable to fill out a one page job application.

"The New Orleans public schools failed Bridget Green. And if they failed her -- a young woman who would have been the valedictorian at Alcee Fortier Senior High School -- then one has to conclude that they failed most of the students who earned lower grades than she did.

Bridget Green flunked the math portion of the Graduate Exit Exam five times. Because she hadn't passed the test by May, not only did she have to relinquish the title of valedictorian, but she couldn't participate in commencement activities at all.

Ms. Green is not, as opponents of testing will undoubtedly assert, the victim of a flawed testing system. She is, rather, an example of both poor instruction and grade inflation. It defies all commonsense that the student with the highest cumulative grade point average at Fortier would, in five tries, be unable to pass a 10th-grade math test.

Ms. Green took the math test again in July, and is expected to find out today whether she passed it. If so, she graduates. If not, she says she'll keep trying until she passes.

To learn of Bridget Green's dedication to her studies adds an extra element of tragedy to her story, for, by all accounts, she is a hard worker. "A pleasure to have in class," one teacher said of her. Had she spent her time goofing off, it would be easier to blame her for falling short. But her teachers were giving her A's and B's. How was she to know she was so far behind?

Just this year Ms. Green received an A in Algebra II. In most places, an A in that subject indicates the student has demonstrated mastery in factoring polynomials and dividing them, solving quadratic equations and plotting them and is adept at solving complex word problems.

Obviously, Bridget Green hadn't mastered those skills or she would have passed the test. And if she hadn't mastered those skills, she shouldn't have been given such a high grade. As paradoxical as it may sound, it appears that at least some of Bridget Green's teachers failed her by giving her glowing grades.

Had the GEE been the only test that gave Bridget Green so much trouble, perhaps critics of that test would have a point. But she also did poorly on the ACT, a tool that colleges nationwide use to determine a student's readiness for higher education. Ms. Green's composite score on that test was 11. According to the American College Testing Web site, that places her in the 1st percentile. Of all the 10th-, 11th- and 12th-graders who took the test within the last three years, 99 percent of them did better than Ms. Green.

How cruel it is to give a student A's and B's and name her valedictorian when she's that far behind the rest of the nation. How cruel it is to her classmates with lower grades who've been tricked into thinking they've received an education when they, too, have been cheated.

Critics of testing may argue that students shouldn't be held back because they fail a test, but what's the alternative? Handing them a diploma that will quickly be proved meaningless when they enroll in college or try to find a job?

The teachers and administrators at Fortier High have some explaining to do. If the senior with the best grades can't pass a 10th-grade test, what, if anything, are students being taught?







— Editorial
Times-Picayune
Failing the valedictorian

2003-08-13"

[duhtroll]

I posted what on expert on China's school system believes about their "teach to the test" mentality and how it should not be seen as the panacea for global school systems.

In addition, the OP strongly implies that US schools should not be seeking to emulate this model. It also shows that tested students in other countries are not an "apples to apples" comparison to our own students for many reasons, some listed in the article.

You posted something that has nothing to do with standardized test scores so I wonder how it applies here.

In the case of Bridget Green, show me how she is going to get into a decent post-secondary school with no standardized test scores. If she can't pass an exam at school, she certainly can't score well on the ACT or SAT.

So "defrauding" higher education is not really a concern, nor is her taking a job from a more deserving person. Given that the taxpayers are going to pay for her public schooling regardless of her scores, does it *really* matter to the global community what grade she got in Algebra?

I mean, it should matter to her and her family (neither of which receives any of the blame in your post, and why the heck not?) but she isn't getting anything material in an undeserved manner.

I mean, how do the parents not know these grades are completely wrong for their child? Failing her, though obviously what she deserved (and I am not absolving the school system) would have changed what, really?

Look, I get that you don't like the New Orleans schools, but sweeping generalities like the ones in just your first couple paragraphs (like "many students with As and Bs can't fill out a job app.," which is not only unfounded but it is also off topic) really obfuscate any point you might be trying to make.

There are broken *individual* situations and stories of abuse in every single industry in every single country on the planet. It proves only that some people can't be trusted and says nothing about those industries or countries as a whole.


How can individual thought exist in a Communist Country that imprisons and excutes those that express individual thoughts?

I lived in a city where for 35 years students graduated from HS, many with all A's and B's, who were unable to fill out a one page job application.

"The New Orleans public schools failed Bridget Green. And if they failed her -- a young woman who would have been the valedictorian at Alcee Fortier Senior High School -- then one has to conclude that they failed most of the students who earned lower grades than she did.

Bridget Green flunked the math portion of the Graduate Exit Exam five times. Because she hadn't passed the test by May, not only did she have to relinquish the title of valedictorian, but she couldn't participate in commencement activities at all.

Ms. Green is not, as opponents of testing will undoubtedly assert, the victim of a flawed testing system. She is, rather, an example of both poor instruction and grade inflation. It defies all commonsense that the student with the highest cumulative grade point average at Fortier would, in five tries, be unable to pass a 10th-grade math test.

Ms. Green took the math test again in July, and is expected to find out today whether she passed it. If so, she graduates. If not, she says she'll keep trying until she passes.

To learn of Bridget Green's dedication to her studies adds an extra element of tragedy to her story, for, by all accounts, she is a hard worker. "A pleasure to have in class," one teacher said of her. Had she spent her time goofing off, it would be easier to blame her for falling short. But her teachers were giving her A's and B's. How was she to know she was so far behind?

Just this year Ms. Green received an A in Algebra II. In most places, an A in that subject indicates the student has demonstrated mastery in factoring polynomials and dividing them, solving quadratic equations and plotting them and is adept at solving complex word problems.

Obviously, Bridget Green hadn't mastered those skills or she would have passed the test. And if she hadn't mastered those skills, she shouldn't have been given such a high grade. As paradoxical as it may sound, it appears that at least some of Bridget Green's teachers failed her by giving her glowing grades.

Had the GEE been the only test that gave Bridget Green so much trouble, perhaps critics of that test would have a point. But she also did poorly on the ACT, a tool that colleges nationwide use to determine a student's readiness for higher education. Ms. Green's composite score on that test was 11. According to the American College Testing Web site, that places her in the 1st percentile. Of all the 10th-, 11th- and 12th-graders who took the test within the last three years, 99 percent of them did better than Ms. Green.

How cruel it is to give a student A's and B's and name her valedictorian when she's that far behind the rest of the nation. How cruel it is to her classmates with lower grades who've been tricked into thinking they've received an education when they, too, have been cheated.

Critics of testing may argue that students shouldn't be held back because they fail a test, but what's the alternative? Handing them a diploma that will quickly be proved meaningless when they enroll in college or try to find a job?

The teachers and administrators at Fortier High have some explaining to do. If the senior with the best grades can't pass a 10th-grade test, what, if anything, are students being taught?







— Editorial
Times-Picayune
Failing the valedictorian

2003-08-13"

[sailsmen]

Your thread title "test scores don't equal education" and in the NOPS pre Katrina neither did Grades.

New Orleans Public School System is an example of a School System that was broken. It was not until standardized testing was implemented that the problem with the NOPS could be recognized. The editorial is specifically about grades vs standarized testing, (GED & ACT),;
""The New Orleans public schools failed Bridget Green. And if they failed her -- a young woman who would have been the valedictorian at Alcee Fortier Senior High School -- then one has to conclude that they failed most of the students who earned lower grades than she did.

Bridget Green flunked the math portion of the Graduate Exit Exam five times."

"Had the GEE been the only test that gave Bridget Green so much trouble, perhaps critics of that test would have a point. But she also did poorly on the ACT, a tool that colleges nationwide use to determine a student's readiness for higher education. Ms. Green's composite score on that test was 11. According to the American College Testing Web site, that places her in the 1st percentile. Of all the 10th-, 11th- and 12th-graders who took the test within the last three years, 99 percent of them did better than Ms. Green.

How cruel it is to give a student A's and B's and name her valedictorian when she's that far behind the rest of the nation."

"I mean, how do the parents not know these grades are completely wrong for their child? Failing her, though obviously what she deserved (and I am not absolving the school system) would have changed what, really?" Their child is doing everything she is supposed to be doing and the measure, Grades, is telling everyone she is excelling at it. Why would the parents think differently? Failing her would have pointed out there is a PROBLEM. Something the NOPS did not want to be KNOWN.

On what basis do I state it is unfounded? "like "many students with As and Bs can't fill out a job app.," which is not only unfounded". Surveys have been done of employers who have stated job aplicants come in with their HS Diploma and transcripts showing A's & B's but they cannot fill out a 1 page job application.

I find it very telling that the obvious fact is being over looked, that in a totalitarian Communist Country that executes and imprisons people for indvidual thought you are not going to have much in the way of individual thought.

I went to school with 2 people from China who were not allowed to have any contact with anyone from the USA. Every 2 weeks they were "debriefed" from whom ever they reported to. I found this out from another student from another country who was also in the class who they were allowed to have limited contact with. They were also not allowed to ask any questions during class.

[Shaijack]

I for ONE did not graduate from a New Orleans school. (Jefferson Parish) I even graduated college and taught at the college level. I was 22nd out of 38 students and still was a Director for two companies and Senior Vice President for two companies. What I am saying is some parishes in Louisiana teach and give out money to teachers that do not teach only pass students. New Orleans is known for their bad school and my personal take is it starts with the FAMILY and what is taught at home NOT what is not taught in schools.

[duhtroll]

I don't know where you've been, but standardized testing has been around for many decades in this country (centuries in others), and a school's GEE does not have the same oversight as those on a national scale. A school can put whatever it wants on a GEE.

And I still have to ask, what is your point? By showing that one student got good grades that they likely didn't earn, that has nothing to do with whether or not the NATIONAL tests (which is the point of the article) measure their educational level.

There are millions of students who get good grades who actually earned them, yet do poorly on tests. There are millions more who get poor grades only to test very, very well.

You are cherry picking one student, (from 2003) and an editorial about her, and making a case that an entire system is broken (which may be true) and then transposing that into a statement about education as a whole.

It doesn't work that way, except on FOX "News."

The educational environment in this country has radically changed since 2000 and the inception of the ESEA (No Child Left Behind). We don't just take standardized tests in this country anymore. We rely on them, and that is what the article is addressing. I don't even think the article mentioned grades, because they aren't part of the discussion.

As for Ms. Green's parents, standardized test scores are available to them and in the case of the ACTs they are mailed to the home, not the school (at least in my experience, but in any case, they have access). Why didn't they notice well before the ACTs -- in grade school -- when her ability to read didn't match her grades?

The biggest problem I can see with the article you posted is one teacher inflating a grade or at the very least not addressing the material on the GEE or ACT.

Still, it has nothing to do with the OP. Had the article been an evaluation of grading procedures, I could see a connection. But it isn't.

The "cannot fill out a job app" statement is a generalization and it sounds like an angry one, which makes me suspect the actual data behind it. Since there is no data provided and the opinion is second hand or even farther removed from the editorial, I wonder why you even include it as true. It is like me saying today "Kids are stupid. The guy at Burger King couldn't even find the Whopper button so I could buy lunch. Those stupid schools!"

If that makes perfect sense as a reason to criticize education, then I hope you're going to criticize gun laws for the Arizona shooting in the same manner. (Neither follows, but it is the same logic and completely ignores personal responsibility.)

Whatever happened to "there are stupid and/or crazy individuals where they should not be allowed?"

As for your conclusions about China, I can only say that you make over a billion people and many different communities, lifestyles, etc., sound pretty simple in your stereotyping. I have been to school with people from China also and I heard nothing of what you describe, and they certainly had "individual thoughts."

I have been to communist countries, lived with them and worked with them and there are lots of people there would take issue with your "lack of individual thoughts" statement.


Your thread title "test scores don't equal education" and in the NOPS pre Katrina neither did Grades.

New Orleans Public School System is an example of a School System that was broken. It was not until standardized testing was implemented that the problem with the NOPS could be recognized. The editorial is specifically about grades vs standarized testing, (GED & ACT),;
""The New Orleans public schools failed Bridget Green. And if they failed her -- a young woman who would have been the valedictorian at Alcee Fortier Senior High School -- then one has to conclude that they failed most of the students who earned lower grades than she did.

Bridget Green flunked the math portion of the Graduate Exit Exam five times."

"Had the GEE been the only test that gave Bridget Green so much trouble, perhaps critics of that test would have a point. But she also did poorly on the ACT, a tool that colleges nationwide use to determine a student's readiness for higher education. Ms. Green's composite score on that test was 11. According to the American College Testing Web site, that places her in the 1st percentile. Of all the 10th-, 11th- and 12th-graders who took the test within the last three years, 99 percent of them did better than Ms. Green.

How cruel it is to give a student A's and B's and name her valedictorian when she's that far behind the rest of the nation."

"I mean, how do the parents not know these grades are completely wrong for their child? Failing her, though obviously what she deserved (and I am not absolving the school system) would have changed what, really?" Their child is doing everything she is supposed to be doing and the measure, Grades, is telling everyone she is excelling at it. Why would the parents think differently? Failing her would have pointed out there is a PROBLEM. Something the NOPS did not want to be KNOWN.

On what basis do I state it is unfounded? "like "many students with As and Bs can't fill out a job app.," which is not only unfounded". Surveys have been done of employers who have stated job aplicants come in with their HS Diploma and transcripts showing A's & B's but they cannot fill out a 1 page job application.

I find it very telling that the obvious fact is being over looked, that in a totalitarian Communist Country that executes and imprisons people for indvidual thought you are not going to have much in the way of individual thought.

I went to school with 2 people from China who were not allowed to have any contact with anyone from the USA. Every 2 weeks they were "debriefed" from whom ever they reported to. I found this out from another student from another country who was also in the class who they were allowed to have limited contact with. They were also not allowed to ask any questions during class.

[Hotrauder]

I know off topic and no doubt simplistic but in my wacky opinion the current education model in this country is the problem... I am not an educator, don't play one on tv. I do pay taxes, and my children and now grandchildren use or will use the system and that system is wasting money, failing to get the job done by every measure and also failing educators. Ideas? :)



1. Get the federal government and federal tax dollars out of schools and education.

2. Is teaching a profession? Eliminate Teacher unions and Federations

3. End tenure at all levels

4. Pay good teachers more and fire the deadwood, the layers of managment that are nothing more than CYA up the chain of command and hold the rest accountable.

5. Apply common sense business methods to education and demand results.

6. Hold teachers responsible but provide them with the backing to RUN the classroom and demand excellence.

7. End the stiff arm against parental participation and create home/school joint effort to motivate and provide direction for problem and underperforming students.

Not trying to stir the pot nor pointing fingers... just concerned with the steady downhill direction in this country. By every measure we are throwing money into a black hole, more of it every year???

FIRE AWAY......

[SC Cheesehead]

I KNEW there was a reason I liked you, Dennis... :up:

[Bluerauder]

In the case of Bridget Green, show me how she is going to get into a decent post-secondary school with no standardized test scores. If she can't pass an exam at school, she certainly can't score well on the ACT or SAT.

Methinks duhtroll doth protest too much.

Obviously, he is not aware that there is a current trend within US universities and colleges NOT to use ACT or SAT scores for the basis of acceptance into institutions of higher education. Too many products of the current educational system cannot make the grade, so "alternative" means are being "examined" so that admissions quotas can be met. Once reputable schools are dumbing down their criteria in deference to a feeder system that is failing.

One must live inside a glass bubble not to realize that US students are falling woefully behind "off shore" students in both math and science. Just look at where most engineers and scientists are coming from ..... and it ain't the USA. The same can be said for doctors and many other technical professions. The US is way behind. Something is definitely wrong with the educational system that produces functional illiterates (enough to notice) after 12 years in the system.

The DC Public School System was even considering offering "Cash for Grades" (from taxpayer revenue) as an incentive to study and learn. What BS :bs:

After reading this entire thread twice, I award the following points ....

+2 Sailsman (Clear and To the Point)
-2 Duhtroll (Rationalization and Rambling)

[duhtroll]

Obviously, you are not aware my wife works for a state University, including dealing with transcripts, transfer requirements and admissions, and I can tell you that you are very misinformed. Test scores have never been used as THE basis (your words) for admission, but they have been one of a select few criteria for decades.

And since you obviously didn't even bother to read the OP, you know, the article with info. from the expert on the "first place" schools in those tests you mention, you should actually start at the beginning and pay attention this time.

Had you read the OP, you'd know that their high test scores don't necessarily indicate future success, nor are they a fair comparison.

You also obviously don't know that our highest performing students perform more or less on par with the top students from other countries. It is in the averages that we look worse, because we are testing a greater number of the population while some countries test only their elite.

Where is your data that shows we aren't producing engineers and scientists? Where is the data that most of our doctors are from other countries?

Yeah, that's a real cogent argument you make. :rolleyes:


Methinks duhtroll doth protest too much.

Obviously, he is not aware that there is a current trend within US universities and colleges NOT to use ACT or SAT scores for the basis of acceptance into institutions of higher education. Too many products of the current educational system cannot make the grade, so "alternative" means are being "examined" so that admissions quotas can be met. Once reputable schools are dumbing down their criteria in deference to a feeder system that is failing.

One must live inside a glass bubble not to realize that US students are falling woefully behind "off shore" students in both math and science. Just look at where most engineers and scientists are coming from ..... and it ain't the USA. The same can be said for doctors and many other technical professions. The US is way behind. Something is definitely wrong with the educational system that produces functional illiterates (enough to notice) after 12 years in the system.

The DC Public School System was even considering offering "Cash for Grades" (from taxpayer revenue) as an incentive to study and learn. What BS :bs:

After reading this entire thread twice, I award the following points ....

+2 Sailsman (Clear and To the Point)
-2 Duhtroll (Rationalization and Rambling)

[duhtroll]

I would be in favor of reducing the Fed involvement, but on most of the rest of this stuff you guys really have no clue. I know you went to a school, but that doesn't give you the knowledge or ability to run a school district.

Teachers might be in favor of performance pay except no principal on the planet, nor any superintendent, has the content knowledge to be able to competently evaluate every subject area. Every area's criteria for success are different and many of them cannot be subject to a standardized test with any real accuracy.

Take writing skill, for example. How is a standardized test going to evaluate the student's compositional style, much less a principal whose specialty was Biology but may not be the best writer?

And performance based pay means teachers are now competing against, not collaborating with each other.

And I am sorry to be the one to tell you, but schools will never be businesses, no matter how much ignorant people try to make them fit that model.

If a business gets bad raw materials, they can send them back. We get the kids we get and are expected to have them be proficient regardless of what is going on (or not going on) at home.

I say to you as soon as every single parent takes responsibility for their kids, then the teachers will be able to show progress with every single kid.

Secondly, schools are not-for-profit. Eliminate the taxes for schools and run them like businesses and soon you will have 2/3 or more of the country's youth on the streets because their parents won't pay for schooling.

What are you going to do with all those kids?

Yep, fire all those bad teachers, because pretty soon all of them will be nonproficient according to the current proficiency model. Then you will have no teachers.

But I am sure some local business people can fill in just fine. :lol:

Does anyone think tenure or a union prevents anyone from being fired?

Seriously? You believe that BS?


I know off topic and no doubt simplistic but in my wacky opinion the current education model in this country is the problem... I am not an educator, don't play one on tv. I do pay taxes, and my children and now grandchildren use or will use the system and that system is wasting money, failing to get the job done by every measure and also failing educators. Ideas? :)



1. Get the federal government and federal tax dollars out of schools and education.

2. Is teaching a profession? Eliminate Teacher unions and Federations

3. End tenure at all levels

4. Pay good teachers more and fire the deadwood, the layers of managment that are nothing more than CYA up the chain of command and hold the rest accountable.

5. Apply common sense business methods to education and demand results.

6. Hold teachers responsible but provide them with the backing to RUN the classroom and demand excellence.

7. End the stiff arm against parental participation and create home/school joint effort to motivate and provide direction for problem and underperforming students.

Not trying to stir the pot nor pointing fingers... just concerned with the steady downhill direction in this country. By every measure we are throwing money into a black hole, more of it every year???

FIRE AWAY......

[sailsmen]

My points are 1) "Your thread title "test scores don't equal education" and in the NOPS pre Katrina neither did Grades." and 2) " I find it very telling that the obvious fact is being over looked, that in a totalitarian Communist Country that executes and imprisons people for indvidual thought you are not going to have much in the way of individual thought."

From Wikipedia - "However, freedom of expression can be limited through censorship, arrests, book burning, or propaganda, and this tends to discourage freedom of thought. Examples of effective campaigns against freedom of expression are the Soviet suppression of genetics research in favor of a theory known as Lysenkoism, the book burning campaigns of Nazi Germany, the radical anti-intellectualism enforced in Cambodia under Pol Pot, and the strict limits on freedom of expression imposed by the Communist governments of the Peoples Republic of China and Cuba."


"The "cannot fill out a job app" statement is a generalization and it sounds like an angry one". There is no anger in my factual statement.

"makes me suspect the actual data behind it. Since there is no data provided and the opinion is second hand or even farther removed from the editorial, I wonder why you even include it as true." Pure conjecture on your part and quite evident that you are completely ignorant of the history of the NOPS and the labor pool history in New Orleans.

This statement of yours gives me great insight into your view on education;
"I mean, how do the parents not know these grades are completely wrong for their child? Failing her, though obviously what she deserved (and I am not absolving the school system) would have changed what, really?"

[PonyUP]

Well I'll say this, tenure and unions do not prevent someone from being fired, but they make very damn difficult. If you have ever tried to fire a union employee (which I have) it is a very long and arduous process that most of the time you don't win unless the violation is EXTREMELY agregious. As a result union employees tend to have a security in their job and their performance CAN suffer.

This translates to teachers as well. I will not categorize all teachers in this way, but I will say in my opinion the education system in this country has been sliding. It happens for a variety of reasons caused by both the schools and the homes.

We have been throwing money at the problem and came up with the testing as a way of measuring results. This obviously doesn't work. And guess what, some kids are going to be left behind. If they lack the passion, the drive, and ambition that starts their failure. If parents are not emphasizing it, working with their kids and teaching them as they grow, that continues the failure. If the teachers are left with this product, then the best teacher in the world will not turn it around.

I don't know what the solution is. I agree that testing does not necessarily accurately measure intelligence, but it can give you a barometer of the areas that need to be worked on. When it isn't caught until an exit exam, than that school, and those teachers are too blame as well as the parents.

This tends to be more of a societal problem than anything else. We have formed a society of taking the easy way out. When things are too difficult, we take the easy way out. When kids have a hard time researching or figuring out the answer to the problem, they google it.

In my opinion kids also have an entitlement issue. I suppose this has always been the case, but it seems much more front and center nowadays. I think there is an attitude problem with a lot of kids today that makes it difficult to teach them.

[Bluerauder]

Obviously, you are not aware my wife works for a state University, including dealing with transcripts, transfer requirements and admissions, and I can tell you that you are very misinformed. Test scores have never been used as THE basis (your words) for admission, but they have been one of a select few criteria for decades.

And since you obviously didn't even bother to read the OP, you know, the article with info. from the expert on the "first place" schools in those tests you mention, you should actually start at the beginning and pay attention this time.

Had you read the OP, you'd know that their high test scores don't necessarily indicate future success, nor are they a fair comparison.

You also obviously don't know that our highest performing students perform more or less on par with the top students from other countries. It is in the averages that we look worse, because we are testing a greater number of the population while some countries test only their elite.

Where is your data that shows we aren't producing engineers and scientists? Where is the data that most of our doctors are from other countries?

Yeah, that's a real cogent argument you make. :rolleyes:

I really think that you have a reading comprehension problem/issue.

Never did I say that ACT or SAT were "THE" only basis of admissions. That emphasis was yours ostensibly to prove your point. What I am saying is that some schools are now considering NOT USING ACT or SAT scores at all. On this point, I am not misinformed.

You draw conclusions from the article that are NOT THERE. Nowhere does it mention teaching to the test. Nowhere does it state that US school systems should not emulate the Chinese educational model. Nowhere does it say that high performance on standardized tests are indicators of future success. Nowhere does the article assess the "fair comparison" nature of standardized tests. The article simply asserts the emphasis on testing and the stresses that it places on Chinese students to the point that it stifles their creativity and imagination/talent to the point of health problems. I guess that can happen when your entire family's livelihood and future depends on the outcome of the test process. On the other hand, these students take international tests and say that they are simple. They must be learning something.

I do know that top US students are on par with the off shore students. That's the 2-5% that can make it into William & Mary or UVA. I am also aware that the median level is shifting toward the lower end of the scale.

It is a well known fact that the US is not producing engineers and scientists as it did 20-25 years ago. Disregard that fact at your own peril.

Guess you haven't visited a doctor's office or hospital recently? My wife works for an Iranian cardiologist --- that's the norm, not the exception.

Seems that you draw conclusions and connect dots that just aren't there from the article.

[duhtroll]

Teachers unions and labor unions are not the same in this case, so please do not equate them.


Well I'll say this, tenure and unions do not prevent someone from being fired, but they make very damn difficult. If you have ever tried to fire a union employee (which I have) it is a very long and arduous process that most of the time you don't win unless the violation is EXTREMELY agregious. As a result union employees tend to have a security in their job and their performance CAN suffer.

This translates to teachers as well. I will not categorize all teachers in this way,

[duhtroll]

I really think that you have a reading comprehension problem/issue.

Never did I say that ACT or SAT were "THE" only basis of admissions.



Obviously, he is not aware that there is a current trend within US universities and colleges NOT to use ACT or SAT scores for the basis of acceptance into institutions of higher education.

Really?


You draw conclusions from the article that are NOT THERE. Nowhere does it mention teaching to the test.


And even in the rarefied world of the Shanghai high schools, teachers and administrators are concerned about the single-minded obsession with examinations.

"I carry a strong feeling of bitterness," Chen Weihua, an editor at the state-run China Daily, wrote in a first-person editorial. "The making of superb test-takers comes at a high cost, often killing much of, if not all, the joy of childhood."

In a sense, this is the underbelly of a rising China: the fear that schools are churning out generations of unimaginative worker bees who do well on tests.

Really? Not there, huh?


Nowhere does it state that US school systems should not emulate the Chinese educational model. Nowhere does it say that high performance on standardized tests are indicators of future success.

That IS the model being pushed on us by the Fed, in case you haven't been paying attention.



Nowhere does the article assess the "fair comparison" nature of standardized tests.

Really? That was the bolded text in the OP. It makes it very clear that the high results do not come from anywhere but the best schools.

Kinda like they do here.


On the other hand, these students take international tests and say that they are simple. They must be learning something.

Did you miss the statement about "single minded obsession with examinations?"


I do know that top US students are on par with the off shore students. That's the 2-5% that can make it into William & Mary or UVA. I am also aware that the median level is shifting toward the lower end of the scale.

Yeah, I said that too. Because we are testing a greater percentage of the kids. It is bound to happen


It is a well known fact that the US is not producing engineers and scientists as it did 20-25 years ago. Disregard that fact at your own peril.

But that isn't what you said originally. You said...


Just look at where most engineers and scientists are coming from ..... and it ain't the USA.

Most, where? Here?

Every "well known fact," until provided with data, is hogwash. I will not dispute we are producing less than in past years, but how many nations have had technological and industrial revolutions in the last 100 years?

There are more people for every job; more competition.


Guess you haven't visited a doctor's office or hospital recently? My wife works for an Iranian cardiologist --- that's the norm, not the exception.

Most of our docs around here are Caucasian Americans. Sure some are from other countries, but that is to be expected with the boom other countries have had lately. Some of "our" docs work over "there" too. :rolleyes:


Seems that you draw conclusions and connect dots that just aren't there from the article.

Again I say, really? I just referenced every single one, TMK. If I missed one, let me know.

So much for reading comprehension, eh?

[duhtroll]

From Wikipedia - "However, freedom of expression can be limited through censorship, arrests, book burning, or propaganda, and this tends to discourage freedom of thought. Examples of effective campaigns against freedom of expression are the Soviet suppression of genetics research in favor of a theory known as Lysenkoism, the book burning campaigns of Nazi Germany, the radical anti-intellectualism enforced in Cambodia under Pol Pot, and the strict limits on freedom of expression imposed by the Communist governments of the Peoples Republic of China and Cuba."

The limits on freedom of expression has NOTHING to do with ideas a person has. Unless you think they can limit your brain.


There is no anger in my factual statement.

But it IS a sweeping generalization and backed up with nothing. AND, it is still off-topic.


Pure conjecture on your part and quite evident that you are completely ignorant of the history of the NOPS and the labor pool history in New Orleans.

OK, if I am ignorant, where is your data so I may learn? Or am I just supposed to take your word for it, as the expert on Louisiana's educational system?

If you can provide some criteria that I should accept you as such, I will. But so far you're just some guy that lives there and has an opinion.


This statement of yours gives me great insight into your view on education;
"I mean, how do the parents not know these grades are completely wrong for their child? Failing her, though obviously what she deserved (and I am not absolving the school system) would have changed what, really?"

My question stands. Show me the difference in that girl's life. She is still out of school. She still couldn't pass the GEE and therefore shouldn't have been able to graduate. Since she couldn't graduate she is NOT the valedictorian of the class, unless LA has some system of which I am unaware.

So since she can't be valedictorian, why are we talking about her? Why is she even being listed as evidence of the failure of the system? She DIDN'T pass out of high school, if the GEE is required for passing.

What you have shown me is a teacher who doesn't know beans about either how to grade or what is on the GEE, but a failing student is a failing student either way.

[SC Cheesehead]

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[PonyUP]

Teachers unions and labor unions are not the same in this case, so please do not equate them.

Where did I equate them? Whether it be a teachers union, Teamster, projectionist, or any other union, it is near impossible to fire them without a major offense. The minute you do, the unions file grievences and you get bogged down in litigation. That is universal to all unions, including the teachers. You made an assumption that equated it to labor unions, my question is how do you know I wasn't talking about firing a teacher?

Either way, unions make it more difficult to fire someone, that's why they were created to protect the rights of the employee. They have now grown to be more powerful.

So my question to you is, how is the teachers union different from any other union?

[Bluerauder]

:popcorn: :popcorn:

I am headed out to the lobby. Want me to pick you up some Raisinettes or Jujubees?

[Horsepower]

This would never be possible in America because no body wants to pay for that ****. Longer school time means MORE TAXES. Last time I checked Taxes WERE ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!

:flag::flag::flag::flag:= Democracy=Control=Television

[kernie]

The solution is obvious, make the educational system for profit and bring in the insurance industry.
;)
:beer:

[CBT]

Some kids are stupid, it's that simple, and it's not the stupid teachers fault.

[SC Cheesehead]

I am headed out to the lobby. Want me to pick you up some Raisinettes or Jujubees?

I hear ya... :wink:


Some kids are stupid, it's that simple, and it's not the stupid teachers fault.


http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61FGXJ8V75L._SL500_AA300_.jpg&sa=X&ei=i1YwTd3LIdSRgQfF0OyQCw&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNEcPQC93z2hMPDDD3SJAQ plwcD9vA

[duhtroll]

First of all, it isn't "near-impossible" to fire a teacher, nor is it difficult if people know how to read.

The only way a union can protect a bad teacher from being fired is if the supervisor/admin. is incompetent.

People have rights when they sign a contract, and the reason the process exists in the first place was to prevent an admin. from walking into a classroom during class and saying to the teacher "I don't like you. Get out." That could happen prior to the inception of the process.

Well, and it can happen in most places during a probationary period. In IA it is two years. They need no reason to fire a teacher in those first two years. If there is a problem with a teacher's ability, it should be readily apparent in that time.

"Tenure" means a teacher cannot be fired without just cause. That's it. If there is just cause, no union can protect them.

The union does nothing but make sure that the proper procedure is followed. If the teacher really is bad, all the admin. has to do is keep decent records of why and what has been done and show evidence of whatever the teacher is doing/not doing that makes them unsatisfactory.

In many cases there is a second step where the admin. must make some effort to allow the teacher to correct the problem first (unless it is some egregious violation - I am referring to performance in this case), which only makes sense. If the boss and the employee have different ideas of what is being required, the first step should be to sit down and clarify it anyway.

The problem is some admin. don't want to follow a procedure or even think they have to. And if they don't, in come the lawyers. That is the only way a "bad" teacher can stay in a system, and even then not for long.

I have seen several teachers fired. Some with good cause, and a couple for no good reason at all. It is the latter that unions seek to prevent. For the ones that shouldn't be there in the first place, all they do is make sure the District follows procedure.

Yes, even bad teachers need to have procedures followed. If they don't, the admin. can accuse the unions of favoritism (which happens anyway).

Administrators are not employers. They are hired by the school board/taxpayers too. That is why in most places only a school board can hire and fire.


Where did I equate them? Whether it be a teachers union, Teamster, projectionist, or any other union, it is near impossible to fire them without a major offense. The minute you do, the unions file grievences and you get bogged down in litigation. That is universal to all unions, including the teachers. You made an assumption that equated it to labor unions, my question is how do you know I wasn't talking about firing a teacher?

Either way, unions make it more difficult to fire someone, that's why they were created to protect the rights of the employee. They have now grown to be more powerful.

So my question to you is, how is the teachers union different from any other union?

[duhtroll]

If an employer has a bad employee, they fire them (even in the case of teachers).

If a teacher has a failing student, today the admin. and parents don't look at the child. They look at the teacher and say "What are YOU going to do to make this kid pass? How are YOU going to accommodate them?"

Teacher: "He walked into my class, flipped me the bird and said "F*** you" to my face. Then he threw a desk across the room, kicked a chair and stormed out."

Admin.: "What did you do to cause that and how do you intend to fix it?"

I watched that conversation take place. Not in my current school, but it does happen. The burden is on the teacher, in ALL cases, to make the situation work, and in some the teacher is even assigned blame for the behavior of the student.

I have also seen admin. ask a teacher why a student wasn't in their class, as if we can possibly be responsible for them outside the classroom.

I wonder if they think we should leave the other 26 kids or whatever to go find the idiot who doesn't show up.


Some kids are stupid, it's that simple, and it's not the stupid teachers fault.

[CBT]

I could not be a teacher for K-12, they have my respect. College teacher, maybe. I don't have the restraint for it. If Little Johnny comes in and throws a chair at me, I'm throwing it back. And I'd probably throw it at the ****ers parents when they came to complain about it.

[SC Cheesehead]

I could not be a teacher for K-12, they have my respect. College teacher, maybe. I don't have the restraint for it. If Little Johnny comes in and throws a chair at me, I'm throwing it back. And I'd probably throw it at the ****ers parents when they came to complain about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u-I0D9ReqI&feature=related

[Bluerauder]

First of all, it isn't "near-impossible" to fire a teacher, nor is it difficult if people know how to read.

DC Public School Chancellor Michele Rhee attempted to fire some 300 teachers this year based on documented incompetence, long term poor performance and collecting paychecks without even showing up to teach. The DC solution to this problem was to fire Michele Rhee. DC has the highest paid broken educational system in the country. Per student cost is right at $20K per student per year about twice as high as any surrounding area.

[Leadfoot281]

Sounds like Cabin Fever has hit Iowa a little earlly this year.

[duhtroll]

Welp, since the only one who can fire Ms. Rhee (and the 300 teachers) is the school board, and they are elected officials and not teachers in the district, I'd still say the problem has nothing to do with the union.

Neither is the per student cost, since that is also determined by the school board.

I'd say D.C. needs to elect better school board members. Or stop bitching, one of the two. Fixing the problem is directly within their control and has nothing to do with the union.


DC Public School Chancellor Michele Rhee attempted to fire some 300 teachers this year based on documented incompetence, long term poor performance and collecting paychecks without even showing up to teach. The DC solution to this problem was to fire Michele Rhee. DC has the highest paid broken educational system in the country. Per student cost is right at $20K per student per year about twice as high as any surrounding area.

[Horsepower]

Some kids are stupid, it's that simple, and it's not the stupid teachers fault.


damn, couldn't have put it any better:D

[tbone]

The average scores are combined for the whole country. Take out the scores of minorities (inner city, etc.) and the playing field is even if not in our favor. No one can report this for fear of being called a racist. Just reporting the facts, so don't get on me for saying this.

[Horsepower]

The average scores are combined for the whole country. Take out the scores of minorities (inner city, etc.) and the playing field is even if not in our favor. No one can report this for fear of being called a racist. Just reporting the facts, so don't get on me for saying this.


It is what it is, right?
:censor: