EPA considering upping ethanol to 15%

[MERCMAN]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110121/BUSINESS/101210391/1001/NEWS

NOT For me!!

[RacerX]

Does this mean we can advance timing even more? :D

[Mr. Man]

Hope not. Cars already run crappy on 10%. Glad we have places that sell 0% around here.

[SC Cheesehead]

Hope not. Cars already run crappy on 10%. Glad we have places that sell 0% around here.

+1

10% Ethanol gas = http://www.bloodydecks.com/forums/images/smilies/shithappens.gif

[CBT]

It's amazing how the corn industry/Big Agra has been ripping Americans off for this long. Corn doesn't magically turn to fuel. You have to burn OTHER fuels to process corn into fuel, and use electricity that comes from burning MORE fuel to run it thru the process. Heck, you could probably make fuel from dog turds using the same process. And don't get me started on how the corn industry lobbyists have forced high fructose corn syrup to drive the price of sugar so high, candy makers said **** it, and moved to Mexico. Ever see the last Batman movie? The hospital that The Joker blew up was the Brach's candy factory in Chicago. They shut down and moved their business out of the US because they didn't want to use a sugar substitute. All the Willy Wonka candies are made in Mexico now for the same reason. It's all a big friggin scam. I don't even know why I eat corn, I'm so pissed at it.

[TFB]

I don't even know why I eat corn, I'm so pissed at it.
I eat beans & 'taters, make my own gas...;)

[Mr. Man]

It's amazing how the corn industry/Big Agra has been ripping Americans off for this long. Corn doesn't magically turn to fuel. You have to burn OTHER fuels to process corn into fuel, and use electricity that comes from burning MORE fuel to run it thru the process. Heck, you could probably make fuel from dog turds using the same process. And don't get me started on how the corn industry lobbyists have forced high fructose corn syrup to drive the price of sugar so high, candy makers said **** it, and moved to Mexico. Ever see the last Batman movie? The hospital that The Joker blew up was the Brach's candy factory in Chicago. They shut down and moved their business out of the US because they didn't want to use a sugar substitute. All the Willy Wonka candies are made in Mexico now for the same reason. It's all a big friggin scam. I don't even know why I eat corn, I'm so pissed at it.
You are corn dummy. Rent the DVD "Corn". Most Americans are made of water and corn product.

[LANDY]

I eat beans & 'taters, make my own gas...;)thats a good one............:lol:

[guspech750]

It's amazing how the corn industry/Big Agra has been ripping Americans off for this long. Corn doesn't magically turn to fuel. You have to burn OTHER fuels to process corn into fuel, and use electricity that comes from burning MORE fuel to run it thru the process. Heck, you could probably make fuel from dog turds using the same process. And don't get me started on how the corn industry lobbyists have forced high fructose corn syrup to drive the price of sugar so high, candy makers said **** it, and moved to Mexico. Ever see the last Batman movie? The hospital that The Joker blew up was the Brach's candy factory in Chicago. They shut down and moved their business out of the US because they didn't want to use a sugar substitute. All the Willy Wonka candies are made in Mexico now for the same reason. It's all a big friggin scam. I don't even know why I eat corn, I'm so pissed at it.
You like corn because you like to watch it swirl around in your toilet.

[Mr. Man]

You like corn because you like to watch it swirl around in your toilet.
Sounds like you have some sperience wit dat.:puke:

[Red91LX]

I heard on the radio today that EPA has in fact approved/mandated the 15% blend. Now the fun begins as the gas stations will have to decide if they will offer E10 and E15 blends (to prevent serious damage to older engines, lawnmowers, motorcycles, etc). I wonder what the prices will be for the E 15?

[CBT]

I heard on the radio today that EPA has in fact approved/mandated the 15% blend. Now the fun begins as the gas stations will have to decide if they will offer E10 and E15 blends (to prevent serious damage to older engines, lawnmowers, motorcycles, etc). I wonder what the prices will be for the E 15?

No matter what they blend, the cost will go up, corn is not helping. It's like a placebo that uneducated people think actually helps. It helps politicians who own farms that OMG, shocker, grow CORN.

[Bluerauder]

No matter what they blend, the cost will go up ......

Now that is a truism, right there.

If they could mix it with water and get away with it, the cost would STILL go up. Once they have you accustomed to paying $3.00 per gallon. Chances are that you will NEVER seel $2.99 again.

[kernie]

It didn't take me long to discover my car ran much better on Shell v-power 91 octane, no ethanol.

That gas is available everywhere, yes?

:beer:

[justbob]

To the best of my knowledge, ALL gas stations here have only had 10% for many many years now. My cars all run perfect and FAST?

[SC Cheesehead]

It didn't take me long to discover my car ran much better on Shell v-power 91 octane, no ethanol.

That gas is available everywhere, yes?

:beer:

We've got stations that still offer no ethanol, both our cars run better and get better mileage on 100% gasoline over the ethanol blend http://www.bloodydecks.com/forums/images/smilies/shithappens.gif.

I get my best mileage on Shell V-power 93 octane.

[merc6]

I wish. We had a few stations running 94 up till last year but never seen any that didn't run 10%. E-85 is even rare here.

[Marauderjack]

Ethanol blends above 10% and below 85% exhibit very poor stability and my guess is it would cost more to stabilize it than it is worth!!!:argue:

But.....that doesn't seem to mean much with our government these days since they have an endless supply of $$$'s and wish to control EVERYTHING!!!:rolleyes:

[RF Overlord]

To the best of my knowledge, ALL gas stations here have only had 10% for many many years now. My cars all run perfect and FAST?Same here.

In New England, E10 has been the only thing available for years. When we drove Phoebe to MV-V in Maryland, I didn't notice any difference in performance between gas there and here.

[Mr. Man]

Same here.

In New England, E10 has been the only thing available for years. When we drove Phoebe to MV-V in Maryland, I didn't notice any difference in performance between gas there and here.
Probably because Mary drove while you were sleeping in the backseat:cool:

[RR|Suki]

To the best of my knowledge, ALL gas stations here have only had 10% for many many years now. My cars all run perfect and FAST?

same here, MI has been using 10% since I've lived here, and my car is fast as hell. It is stupid though, because it isn't reducing the cost of fuel, and the more of it in the gas, the worse gas mileage you get.

[justbob]

Just a thought here. I was looking thru my owners manual on the Escort and noticed Ford said "up to 10% ethynol allowable" Soooooo? What will this do to warranties and such?

[Red91LX]

Just a thought here. I was looking thru my owners manual on the Escort and noticed Ford said "up to 10% ethynol allowable" Soooooo? What will this do to warranties and such?

This is exactly why the auto manufacturers have strongly objected to the EPA's forcing a higher than 10% blend...As mentioned elsewhere, the axiom seems that the higher the ethanol mix, the worse the mileage averages for most cars with everything else being the same. Lower mileage means more gallons of fuel will be consumed. Who's kidding who???

[sailsmen]

A realtive co-authored the "Sugar Busters" Book. Our diet consists mostly of corn syrup.

Going to a Sugar Busters "diet" is one of the healthiest things most people can do.

Anything that spikes blood sugar is converted to body fat.

The Gov't pays half the cost of an ethanol refinery. I did business with one of the first ethanol plants in the USA. When the subsidy expired it went bankrupt.

[RR|Suki]

Just a thought here. I was looking thru my owners manual on the Escort and noticed Ford said "up to 10% ethynol allowable" Soooooo? What will this do to warranties and such?

I think we are ok for a while, seeing as the EPA hasn't approved it for all years seeing 15% take over prob isn't likely yet. Still lame though paying more for less :shake:

[illwood]

You are corn dummy. Rent the DVD "Corn". Most Americans are made of water and corn product.

The wife and I watched that from Netflix.

I think it's pretty poor that all that land is used to grow corn that no one would eat off the cob.

And have you seen the advertising?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEbRxTOyGf0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVsgXPt564Q

Creepy.

[CBT]

Fantastic article from the Cato Institute:

The Archer Daniels Midland Corporation (ADM) has been the most prominent recipient of corporate welfare in recent U.S. history. ADM and its chairman Dwayne Andreas have lavishly fertilized both political parties with millions of dollars in handouts and in return have reaped billion-dollar windfalls from taxpayers and consumers. Thanks to federal protection of the domestic sugar industry, ethanol subsidies, subsidized grain exports, and various other programs, ADM has cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. At least 43 percent of ADM's annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. Moreover, every $1 of profits earned by ADM's corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10, and every $1 of profits earned by its ethanol operation costs taxpayers $30.


The rest of the lengthy, lengthy (but mind blowing) article can be found here:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

[sailsmen]

It is called "Crony Capitalism". As Gov't spending as a % of GDP rises to ~35%+ (proof 7 out 0f 10 of the wealthiest counties are near DC) getting money from Gov't and having Regulations shaped to preserve your "franchise/monopoly" is the way to obtain and preserve profits.

Do a search on GE, Washinton Post for a good example.

Unfortunately Gov't does not generate wealth, it only reduces wealth by charging and admin fee for redistributing it.

[LIGHTNIN1]

There are stations here that have real gas for 2 or 3 cents more per gallon. Guess I will use that as I do not travel much anyway.

[Leadfoot281]

Feel free to criticize farmers... just please don't do it with your mouth full.

[merc6]

Just out of curiosity does higher percentage Increase the chance of causing similar damage of pouring E85 in a non E85 car, but over time instead of that one tankful?

[rayjay]

Well, the Cheby dealer is blaming all my Aveo's woes on the 10% gasahol we are forced to use here. Three ECUs and now a TB spit the bit. My DTR and the LS8 run ok on it, but we get less MPG.

[duhtroll]

Well, stop eating all those Twinkies, America. If people would stop gorging themselves on high fructose corn syrup products, there wouldn't be such a market for it... :P

Take HFCS AWAY from people and watch the uproar.

Actually, it makes sense why we largely pushed out sugar in favor of HFCS from a business standpoint. The vast majority of the US is the wrong climate for good sugar production so we are using a sweetener we can produce.

The price of sugar is high regardless and it really isn't within US control, since lots of folks who can grow it are using it for ethanol, too.

If we relied solely on sugar vs HFCS, the price would be much higher.

If we could figure out a way to grow more sugar I bet we would use it, since it is more easily made into ethanol than corn. I think I read that most sugar production is for ethanol these days vs. sugar as sweetener.

I expect corn ethanol to not last very long, since it is a stopgap measure until something better comes along. We have lots of corn so we are using what we have until we find a lower cost alternative.

[CBT]

If we could figure out a way to grow more sugar I bet we would use it, since it is more easily made into ethanol than corn. I think I read that most sugar production is for ethanol these days vs. sugar as sweetener.

I expect corn ethanol to not last very long, since it is a stopgap measure until something better comes along. We have lots of corn so we are using what we have until we find a lower cost alternative.

I don't think it will go away until NO politicians own farmland or have a vested interest in it. They will keep pushing for farm subsidies and growing corn for ethonol, and on and on, all the while the taxpayers are the ones getting bent over the bale of hay, not the farmers, I don't buy that for a minute. Anyway, here are just a few Republicans riding the gravy train:

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/218873/thumbs/s-FARM-SUBSIDIES-large.jpg



WASHINGTON — Many Republicans who swept rural Democrats from office are now confronting the reality of a promise to reduce spending: Should it cover the farm subsidies that have brought money and jobs to their districts – and directly benefited some GOP lawmakers or their families?
At least 13 Democrats on the House Agriculture Committee lost on Nov. 2, and most of then helped steer generous farm support back home. Many of their replacements avoided the issue of farm payments during the campaign as they focused on broader themes of lowering federal spending and changing Washington.
They'll have to face it soon enough. Congress is expected to begin work on the next five-year farm bill before the 2012 election.
"They are here to represent their districts, and if their district is clearly a strong agricultural district that uses the programs in the farm bill, it may be something where they have to break with what they campaigned on," says Chandler Goule, a lobbyist for the National Farmers Union.
For some deficit-cutting Republicans, it's a question that's close to home.
Consider Vicky Hartzler of Missouri, who courted tea party support and dethroned the chairman of the House Armed Service Committee, Democratic Rep. Ike Skelton.


Hartzler and her husband own a farm equipment business and a farm where they grow corn and soybeans. She received more than $770,000 in farm subsidies over the past 15 years, according to the Environmental Working Group, a Washington advocacy group that collects and analyzes farm subsidy data.

While promising to cut what she called wasteful spending, Hartzler says protecting farmers is a national security issue because the decline of farms could mean more imported food.
"There are fewer and fewer farmers today so it makes them more of an easy target than others," she says. "American consumers have a vested interest in making sure we have a safe and reliable food supply that is home grown."
Still, she believes some programs may need to be cut.
"There's a benefit to keeping that food safety net there, but we need to look at all discretionary spending and ask the hard questions," she says.
Crop insurance – it costs taxpayers billions of dollars a year – is an effective way to give farmers the security they need when weather ruins a harvest, Hartzler said. She suggests the Conservation Reserve Program, which pays farmers to idle environmentally sensitive land, may have to go.
GOP Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota, an outspoken critic of farm payments, listed between $15,000 and $50,000 in farm income as one source of revenue on her personal financial disclosure statement last year, citing a Bachmann family farm in Independence, Wis., as an asset.
That farm, which was owned by her father-in-law, received more than $250,000 in subsidies over the past 15 years, according to the Environmental Working Group. A Bachmann spokesman said she is not involved in any operational decisions.
South Dakota Republican Kristi Noem, who ousted Democratic Rep. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin, had partial ownership in a ranch that received more than $3 million in subsidies over 15 years, though her family bought her out last year.
Farmer and gospel singer Stephen Fincher won an open seat House race in Tennessee this year while both railing against federal spending and deflecting criticism that his family had received $3.2 million in federal farm subsidies in the past 10 years.
Whether those members defend farm spending or not, the agriculture sector may be in for cuts when Congress looks at writing the next five-year farm bill, expected by 2012. There probably will be much less money to go around, and Republican Rep. John Boehner of Ohio, in line to be speaker, voted against the last farm bill, saying it was too costly.
Bob Stallman, president of the American Farm Bureau, says he thinks Boehner will listen to members of his party who support farm subsidies and programs. Still, he says, "there is more pressure this time around than there ever has been" to cut costs.
One target may be direct payments. These are distributed to some farmers no matter how much they grow. While Southern farmers who grow more expensive crops such as cotton and rice say they depend on them, many criticize those dollars because they are not directly tied to prices or production.
Farm supporters warn that Congress should learn lessons from past mistakes, however. The 1994 Republican congressional sweep led to the 1996 farm bill, known as the Freedom to Farm Act, which sought to return the farm sector to the free market. Commodity prices fell, and Congress was forced to later approve billions of dollars in emergency spending for farmers.
Since then, a powerful farm coalition in both the House and the Senate has led to passage of two robust farm bills. David DeGennaro, a legislative and policy analyst at the Environmental Working Group, says he expects to see much of the same this time around, no matter which party is in control.
"There will be lots of calls and pressure to cut costs, but I don't think we're looking at a draconian cut across the board," he said.

[sailsmen]

"Subsidies for corn ethanol

More ethanol subsidy info from the heart of ethanol country. June 2, 2009
Corn ethanol subsidies totaled $7.0 billion in 2006 for 4.9 billion gallons of ethanol. That's $1.45 per gallon of ethanol (and $2.21 per gal of gas replaced).Even with high gas prices in 2006, producing a gallon of ethanol cost 38¢ more than making gasoline with the same energy, so ethanol did need part of that subsidy. But what about the other $1.12. Not needed! So all of that became, $5.4 billion windfall of profits paid to real farmers, corporate farmers, and ethanol makers like multinational ADM. Why is it the farm states put up with this?!

Where did those subsidies come from:
1. 51¢ per gallon federal blenders credit for $2.5 billion = your tax dollars.
2. $0.9 billion in corn subsidies for ethanol corn = your tax dollars.
3. $3.6 billion extra paid at the pump.

That's quite a bit when you figure it only made us 1.1% more energy independent and only reduced US greenhouse gases by 1/19 of 1%.

Complete analysis of corn-ethanol subsidies:
Direct Subsidies ♦ Price premiums ♦ Social cost & windfall profits

Who should get the subsidy?

In 2006 ethanol blenders were handed $2,500 million in subsidies while the Department of Energy awarded $385 million spread over four to six years to help build cellulose ethanol plants. That's about 32 times less per year. But celluse gets a bit of subsidy from the USDA. Altogether it may get 10% as much as corn-ethanol. The problem is the lobby for cellulose is much weaker than the corn-ethanol lobby.
Corn ethanol does not need subsidies. Cellulose ethanol research does--it would actually do some good. But's what's needed is research, and very small-scale plants, not the big ones that are being built on pretense."
http://zfacts.com/p/63.html

[CBT]

Preach it!

[duhtroll]

I am not saying we don't subsidize ethanol. I am saying new technologies will replace it sooner rather than later. I am going to guess within 10-15 years we will see a major shift in what types of vehicles are being purchased.

I am not worried about it. There are plenty of farmers making lots of money around here because of ethanol, but there are just as many who struggle, so I do not hold it against farmers. They have a right to make money too and this is IMO a problem that will correct itself.

The county in which I teach has some of the best soil on the entire planet. We also had a huge corn crop this year - like 300+ bushels an acre (as told to me by a student who farms) that came in DRY due to near perfect weather (meaning it didn't need to be dried, which saves a whole ton of money and time also). It means good things for the local economy.

The one thing I never see is farmers out flaunting money like I do brokers and CEOs. So farmers are good in my book, even though most of them watch Fox News. ;)

If anyone can offer a low cost electric vehicle that has charging stations readily available, can go up to 300 miles on a charge, doesn't take 4 hours plus to charge, AND costs the same as a IC vehicle, then people don't have to worry about gas prices or what is done with ethanol.

We are getting there, but it will be a few years yet.

[CBT]

Currently there are fewer than 5,000 100% battery powered vehicles on the road in the U.S., Obama said in his State Of The Union adress he wants to see a million plug in, all electric vehicles on the road by 2015. That would equal 0.4 percent of the vehicle fleet in the U.S. Not only do I not think it will happen, I think if it did, who cares? Look at how cold it has been this year, and all the snow and people getting stranded. Fully electric car batteries lose half thier power in freezing conditions, and will drain even faster because you also have to run the heater. It's a fail-fail situation if you live north of the Mason-Dixon line. And when snow/ice storms knock out power, how do you charge your car? At least in a gas burner, not only will it start, you will have heat until you run out of gas. :D

[duhtroll]

Yep, I am sure after all this research they failed to take into account the temps of the planet.


Currently there are fewer than 5,000 100% battery powered vehicles on the road in the U.S., Obama said in his State Of The Union adress he wants to see a million plug in, all electric vehicles on the road by 2015. That would equal 0.4 percent of the vehicle fleet in the U.S. Not only do I not think it will happen, I think if it did, who cares? Look at how cold it has been this year, and all the snow and people getting stranded. Fully electric car batteries lose half thier power in freezing conditions, and will drain even faster because you also have to run the heater. It's a fail-fail situation if you live north of the Mason-Dixon line. And when snow/ice storms knock out power, how do you charge your car? At least in a gas burner, not only will it start, you will have heat until you run out of gas. :D

[Red91LX]

If anyone can offer a low cost electric vehicle that has charging stations readily available, can go up to 300 miles on a charge, doesn't take 4 hours plus to charge, AND costs the same as a IC vehicle, then people don't have to worry about gas prices or what is done with ethanol.

We are getting there, but it will be a few years yet.

I'm just curious as to where will all the "extra" electricity come from that will be needed to charge the all-electric cars of the future.

[Shaijack]

Will this make my MM smell like popcorn?

[rayjay]

One problem, total electric vehicles do not work in the winter where I live. The cold drains the batteries dead. The local university was donated a whole fleet of "limited use motor vehicles", read electric cars. They can not use them November to March. So unless the technology greatly improves, junk.

[Joe Walsh]

Currently there are fewer than 5,000 100% battery powered vehicles on the road in the U.S., Obama said in his State Of The Union adress he wants to see a million plug in, all electric vehicles on the road by 2015. That would equal 0.4 percent of the vehicle fleet in the U.S. Not only do I not think it will happen, I think if it did, who cares? Look at how cold it has been this year, and all the snow and people getting stranded. Fully electric car batteries lose half thier power in freezing conditions, and will drain even faster because you also have to run the heater. It's a fail-fail situation if you live north of the Mason-Dixon line. And when snow/ice storms knock out power, how do you charge your car? At least in a gas burner, not only will it start, you will have heat until you run out of gas. :D

The thing that always gets ignored when these STUPID electric cars are preached is this little fact:

WHERE DOES THE ELECTRICITY TO CHARGE THEM COME FROM?

.....Mostly coal fired power plants!

HAS ANYONE CONSIDERED ALL THE EFFICIENCIES...OR INEFFICIENCIES OF PRODUCING THAT ELECTRICITY?

Things like:

Digging up the coal
Transporting the coal
Burning the coal
Converting that heat into electricity
Transmitting that electricty through the grid to your garage's plug
Charging your "ALL ELECTRIC GREEN CAR".

I bet it takes a few TONS of coal to move your B.S. electric car for it's 40 mile range!

SMART IDEA! ........:rolleyes:

[LIGHTNIN1]

The one thing Obama is very successful at is eliminating jobs and industries.This stuff affects us all. I imagine anyone who buys an electric car will say the heck with the electric part after a while and run it on the gas part, thus negating the whole idea.


http://www.bnd.com/2011/01/27/1568826/claims-about-mining-rules-meet.html#

[rayjay]

The plain and simple thruth is they don't work well enough everywhere to replace what we currently have. If they did we would have had them long ago. The electric car simply can not do what its oil fueled cousin can. When that hurdle is overcome we will have them, they will sell like hot cakes and oil will be dead.

[duhtroll]

Right, and that means someone needs to keep Big Oil out of the way, unlike during the 90s where they replaced the electric streetcars with gas powered ones and bought all of the electric consumer vehicles to have them crushed.

We lost a whole decade there. Who knows? We could have e-vehicles year round right now, perhaps. That's why I say give 'em about 10-15 years.

And before anyone starts labeling me a tree hugger -- electric cars are faster than IC cars in the short haul.

And BTW, summer heat is much harder on a battery than winter.


The plain and simple thruth is they don't work well enough everywhere to replace what we currently have. If they did we would have had them long ago. The electric car simply can not do what its oil fueled cousin can. When that hurdle is overcome we will have them, they will sell like hot cakes and oil will be dead.

[rayjay]

And BTW, summer heat is much harder on a battery than winter.

We rarely get that type of heat here, but I've heard that statement before. I always remind myself that I can put more clothes on, but can only take so many off...

[sailsmen]

If only "Big Oil" would raise their prices times 5 the Alternatives would be viable. If only Gov't, who owns 67% of the oil on our land and 100% off our coast, would increase the Royalty times 50 the Alternatives would be viable.
If only Gov't would ban the use of Coal and Nuclear the Alternatives would be viable.

If only Gov't would subsidize the Alternatives to the tune of $1.45 per gallon would the alternatives be viable. If only Gov't would manipulate energy prices by 5 times the Alternatives would be viable.

If only those greedy "Big Oil" would increase their profits by 35 times, Coal Mines raise their prices by 5 times and Utility companies raise their prices by 5 times would Alternatives be able to compete.

If only Gov't would stop selling us our Coal our Oil our Gas would alternatives be viable.

There is a lot of good information in this thread; http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68230

Since Electricity comes from no where and loads itself in those electric cars, the batteries cannot be recycled and come from rare Earth minerals that are mined, Big Oil is fighting it all the way! "Big Oil" is also fighting the air cars since air is free!


“I voted against the Clear Skies Bill. In fact, I was the deciding vote -- despite the fact that I’m a coal state and that half my state thought that I had thoroughly betrayed them. Because I think clean air is critical and global warming is critical.

“But this notion of no coal, I think, is an illusion. Because the fact of the matter is, is that right now we are getting a lot of our energy from coal. And China is building a coal-powered plant once a week. So what we have to do then is figure out how can we use coal without emitting greenhouse gases and carbon. And how can we sequester that carbon and capture it. If we can’t, then we’re gonna still be working on alternatives.

“But ... let me sort of describe my overall policy. What I’ve said is that we would put a cap and trade policy in place that is as aggressive if not more aggressive than anyone out there. I was the first call for 100 percent auction on the cap and trade system. Which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases that was emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants are being built, they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted-down caps that are imposed every year.

“So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can. It’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted. That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel, and other alternative energy approaches. The only thing that I’ve said with respect to coal -- I haven’t been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as an ideological matter, as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it, that I think is the right approach. The same with respect to nuclear. Right now, we don’t know how to store nuclear waste wisely and we don’t know how to deal with some of the safety issues that remain. And so it’s wildly expensive to pursue nuclear energy. But I tell you what, if we could figure out how to store it safely, then I think most of us would say that might be a pretty good deal.

“The point is, if we set rigorous standards for the allowable emissions, then we can allow the market to determine and technology and entrepreneurs to pursue, what the best approach is to take, as opposed to us saying at the outset, here are the winners that we’re picking and maybe we pick wrong and maybe we pick right.”

[CBT]

Check out # 2, you can click on the link, also. I don't see how fuel will be cheaper with ethenol if the cost of corn goes up 94%.....


The truth is that we have a real mess on our hands. The following are 20 economic warning signs that should be of great concern to all of us....
#1 Over the past seven days, the price of wheat has risen by 11 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-26/wheat-corn-soybeans-jump-as-food-riots-bolster-demand-for-u-s-exports.html) as concerns about food shortages continue to grow around the world.
#2 The price of corn is up a staggering 94 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://dailyreckoning.com/food-crisis-ii/) since last June.
#3 The United Nations is projecting that the global price of food will increase by 30 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/global-inflation-fears-reach-new-heights/article1881500/?cmpid=rss1) in 2011.
#4 According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the number of Americans applying for unemployment benefits rose last week to the highest level since last October (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2011-01-27-jobless-durables_N.htm).
#5 According to the Pew Charitable Trusts, of the 14 million Americans "officially" unemployed in December, 30% of them (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/27/news/economy/long_term_unemployment/index.htm) had been unemployed for one year or longer.
#6 Beginning in the month of March, the U.S. Postal Service will begin shutting down up to 2,000 post offices (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/24/postal-service-eyes-closing-thousands-post-offices/) across the United States.
#7 In an absolutely stunning move, Standard & Poor's has downgraded Japanese government debt from AA to AA- (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12295158).
#8 72 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.businessinsider.com/satellite-tour-foreclosure-cities-2011-1?slop=1#slideshow-start) of the major metropolitan areas in the United States had more foreclosures in 2010 than they did in 2009.
#9 Approximately 5 million homeowners in the United States are at least two months behind (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110113/ap_on_bi_ge/us_foreclosure_rates%3B_ylt%3D AvdzUl3klS53mPpRmh1prgys0NUE%3 B_ylu%3DX3oDMTFoM2xiOG4yBHBvcw MyOARzZWMDYWNjb3JkaW9uX3RvcF9z dG9yaWVzBHNsawNiYW5rc3JlcG9zc2 U-) on their mortgages, and it is being projected that over a million American families will be booted out of their homes this year alone.
#10 According to the Congressional Budget Office, the Social Security system will run a deficit of 45 billion dollars (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2011-01-27-social-security_N.htm) this year. When the new payroll tax breaks are factored in, the projected "Social Security deficit" for this year swells to 130 billion dollars.
#11 The U.S. money supply has been rising at a pace that is absolutely unprecedented (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/paper-money-madness-inflation-fueled-economic-growth-does-not-indicate-that-an-economy-is-getting-stronger).
#12 Right now, money is flowing out of bonds at an absolutely staggering pace (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://news.goldseek.com/GoldenJackass/1294862635.php).
#13 The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics says that the price of food increased 50 percent faster (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.naturalnews.com/031123_food_inflation_prices.h tml#ixzz1CG3rCaZC) than the overall rate of inflation during 2010.
#14 According to the U.S. Conference of Mayors, visits to soup kitchens are up 24 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/8249181/Deepening-crisis-traps-Americas-have-nots.html) over the past year.
#15 During the last school year, almost half (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-01-23/news/ct-met-school-report-enrollment-20110108_1_enrollment-student-mobility-public-school) of all school children in the state of Illinois came from families that were considered to be "low-income".
#16 Those living in the town of Discovery Bay, California will soon not be permitted to use cash (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.prisonplanet.com/california-residents-hit-with-government-ban-on-using-cash.html) to pay for any public services. Could this be another disturbing step in the direction of a cashless society?
#17 French President Nicolas Sarkozy says that the IMF should be given the power to enforce new rules that would be designed to prevent "global economic imbalances" (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70Q3AF20110127) from happening.
#18 The U.S. government is currently borrowing about 40 cents (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1350868/State-Union-Obamas-halt-economic-slump.html) of every single dollar that it spends.
#19 According to the Congressional Budget Office, the U.S. government will have the biggest budget deficit ever recorded (approximately 1.5 trillion dollars (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1350868/State-Union-Obamas-halt-economic-slump.html)) this year.
#20 It is being projected that the U.S. national debt will increase by $150,000 per U.S. household (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/258115/cbo-baseline-shows-staggering-debt-brian-riedl) between 2009 and 2021.

[duhtroll]

I don't think "cheaper" is a concern as much as limiting imports. But again, short term problem.


Check out # 2, you can click on the link, also. I don't see how fuel will be cheaper with ethenol if the cost of corn goes up 94%.....


The truth is that we have a real mess on our hands. The following are 20 economic warning signs that should be of great concern to all of us....
#1 Over the past seven days, the price of wheat has risen by 11 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-26/wheat-corn-soybeans-jump-as-food-riots-bolster-demand-for-u-s-exports.html) as concerns about food shortages continue to grow around the world.
#2 The price of corn is up a staggering 94 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://dailyreckoning.com/food-crisis-ii/) since last June.
#3 The United Nations is projecting that the global price of food will increase by 30 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/global-inflation-fears-reach-new-heights/article1881500/?cmpid=rss1) in 2011.
#4 According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the number of Americans applying for unemployment benefits rose last week to the highest level since last October (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2011-01-27-jobless-durables_N.htm).
#5 According to the Pew Charitable Trusts, of the 14 million Americans "officially" unemployed in December, 30% of them (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/27/news/economy/long_term_unemployment/index.htm) had been unemployed for one year or longer.
#6 Beginning in the month of March, the U.S. Postal Service will begin shutting down up to 2,000 post offices (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/24/postal-service-eyes-closing-thousands-post-offices/) across the United States.
#7 In an absolutely stunning move, Standard & Poor's has downgraded Japanese government debt from AA to AA- (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12295158).
#8 72 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.businessinsider.com/satellite-tour-foreclosure-cities-2011-1?slop=1#slideshow-start) of the major metropolitan areas in the United States had more foreclosures in 2010 than they did in 2009.
#9 Approximately 5 million homeowners in the United States are at least two months behind (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110113/ap_on_bi_ge/us_foreclosure_rates%3B_ylt%3D AvdzUl3klS53mPpRmh1prgys0NUE%3 B_ylu%3DX3oDMTFoM2xiOG4yBHBvcw MyOARzZWMDYWNjb3JkaW9uX3RvcF9z dG9yaWVzBHNsawNiYW5rc3JlcG9zc2 U-) on their mortgages, and it is being projected that over a million American families will be booted out of their homes this year alone.
#10 According to the Congressional Budget Office, the Social Security system will run a deficit of 45 billion dollars (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2011-01-27-social-security_N.htm) this year. When the new payroll tax breaks are factored in, the projected "Social Security deficit" for this year swells to 130 billion dollars.
#11 The U.S. money supply has been rising at a pace that is absolutely unprecedented (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/paper-money-madness-inflation-fueled-economic-growth-does-not-indicate-that-an-economy-is-getting-stronger).
#12 Right now, money is flowing out of bonds at an absolutely staggering pace (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://news.goldseek.com/GoldenJackass/1294862635.php).
#13 The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics says that the price of food increased 50 percent faster (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.naturalnews.com/031123_food_inflation_prices.h tml#ixzz1CG3rCaZC) than the overall rate of inflation during 2010.
#14 According to the U.S. Conference of Mayors, visits to soup kitchens are up 24 percent (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/8249181/Deepening-crisis-traps-Americas-have-nots.html) over the past year.
#15 During the last school year, almost half (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-01-23/news/ct-met-school-report-enrollment-20110108_1_enrollment-student-mobility-public-school) of all school children in the state of Illinois came from families that were considered to be "low-income".
#16 Those living in the town of Discovery Bay, California will soon not be permitted to use cash (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.prisonplanet.com/california-residents-hit-with-government-ban-on-using-cash.html) to pay for any public services. Could this be another disturbing step in the direction of a cashless society?
#17 French President Nicolas Sarkozy says that the IMF should be given the power to enforce new rules that would be designed to prevent "global economic imbalances" (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70Q3AF20110127) from happening.
#18 The U.S. government is currently borrowing about 40 cents (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1350868/State-Union-Obamas-halt-economic-slump.html) of every single dollar that it spends.
#19 According to the Congressional Budget Office, the U.S. government will have the biggest budget deficit ever recorded (approximately 1.5 trillion dollars (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1350868/State-Union-Obamas-halt-economic-slump.html)) this year.
#20 It is being projected that the U.S. national debt will increase by $150,000 per U.S. household (wlmailhtml:{6CED46CD-4737-4728-8A19-2B16FC19AF0B}mid://00000025/!x-usc:http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/258115/cbo-baseline-shows-staggering-debt-brian-riedl) between 2009 and 2021.

[duhtroll]

What in the world does this have to do with the fact that Big Oil helped bring down electric cars in the 90s?

I see all sorts of stuff in what you posted but I'm not wading through it all to perhaps find the point.

There are lots of ways to bring electricity about, some newer and more efficient-- and at least around here we are building them, so I don't see the huge dependence on coal sticking around for much longer, either.


If only "Big Oil" would ... andabunchofotherstuff...

[rayjay]

It does not matter what fuels our vehicles if we can not afford to operate them. Look, I live in a rural area. We have NO public transportation. You MUST own a vehicle of some type just to get from point A to point B. Trying to turn us back 120+ years is going to lead to nothing short of a revolution in this country. The fat cats have made us totally dependant on oil and electricity. I have emergency plans, but folks on here think I'm a kook for planning on protecting whats mine and those plans. We'll see whos right when a box of ammo = a tank full of diesel fuel, but then again without electric ya'll will never hear from me again.

[kernie]

It does not matter what fuels our vehicles if we can not afford to operate them. Look, I live in a rural area. We have NO public transportation. You MUST own a vehicle of some type just to get from point A to point B. Trying to turn us back 120+ years is going to lead to nothing short of a revolution in this country. The fat cats have made us totally dependant on oil and electricity. I have emergency plans, but folks on here think I'm a kook for planning on protecting whats mine and those plans. We'll see whos right when a box of ammo = a tank full of diesel fuel, but then again without electric ya'll will never hear from me again.

Well i hope you don't think i think of you as a kook. I mean you say things in a certain way that i find funny like, I bought this gun for my womens folk whilst i mend... or calling your gun she.:)

But truthfully if anarchy ever does break out, well i'm coming to your house! I will make sure i stand at the end of your driveway to announce my arrival.;)

:beer: