"Terror Alert High" [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

SergntMac

12-23-2003, 07:54 AM

So, what's your opinion on this? Is this an overreaction by OHLS? A political move to shine a light on the Prez? Something to keep the stock market perky? Maybe to reduce holiday travel because the airlines are going bust in their attempts to stay financially afloat. Could be any one of them, eh?

What I'm thinking about, is the after affect of this weeks two major captures. I'm not sure it's a sign of "it's over." Things may be just starting, here's why.

I imagine Iraq is still loaded with loyal followers of Sadam, banded together in sects or cells in some fashion. Undercover. Whether Sadam was hiding in a hole, or not, he was still their boss. Terrorists, who and where ever they happen to be, had a boss telling them what to do, and when. If not directly, through their underground.

An opposing force is still present in Iraq, and still organized, IMHO. Every single attack on our troops is highly valuable to them. These are calculated attacks that turn up the political pressure back home, to collect our toys and get out. Every attack is timed and well planned, and not crossing an undefined line that would cause the US to just go ape ***** with retailation. One or two soldiers a day is all it will take to keep the pressure on Capitol Hill to cease, desist, and bring our boys home. Its very much like what the media did for the Vietnam era by showing us dead kids during our dinner hour.

Now that #1 and one of his high ranking assistants are in custody, each sect/cell is left to act on it's own. Terrorists, or opposing forces are not organized anymore, not even loosly. Each sect/cell is free to pursue their own endeavors, and I am sure one or two sect/cell leaders are thinking "If I do this right, I could be king someday, just like Sadam did it."

Orange is probably a good posture for a while, IMHO. I wasn't using my days off constructively anyway...

Heavy351

12-23-2003, 08:19 AM

I agree with you that things will likely get worse before they get better. With the documents found on Saddam, the troops had a collection of people to arrest. These people may or may not give up who is in their cell.

If I was the top guy in the chain of command of my cell and was not picked up in the last few days, then I would be wondering how much time I had before my door was kicked in. Also, I cannot be sure of what trouble the other leaders of the other cells have cooked up because of the way we are all compartmentalized for security. If I had a plan ready to go, now is the time.

Now after I, the cell leader, excecute my plan I will have to be extremely careful about trying to put something else together. I don't know how much has been comprimised by Saddam or the people that were caught up on the initial sweep. There is an even better chance now that I will run into someone who is going to point me out to the troops. Also, there are some of my neighbors who may start to actually believe this "freedom" stuff and give me up for a reward worth about a years salary to them.

As a cell leader, I know my days are numbered so make them count.

As a soldier, I know that these guys are going to pull some crazy stuff as the last of them martyr themselves, but if I do my job and don't give the locals a reason to hate me (don't be a thug) we will hand over this place sooner and I can go home.........

merc406

12-23-2003, 08:42 AM

It's a sorry ass political move. But still, everyone should be aware of their surroundings no matter what's going on.

SHERIFF

12-23-2003, 09:05 AM

It's all a gimmick to make people think Homeland Security is doing it's job. You got to admit..... somebody wasn't doing their job the week prior to 9-11-2001.

MM03MOK

12-23-2003, 09:08 AM

While 9/11 did cancel my planned trip overseas that day, I'm not going to let "them" win by being afraid. I've flown over a dozen times since then, and I am not changing my travel plans for later this week either. I know lines will be longer and searches more invasive. There's nothing I can do about that and I will plan accordingly.

I continue to be aware of my surroundings regardless of the color of the day, as ^^ Merc406 ^^ stated.

Is an overreaction better than an under-reaction? I'm sure that's what OHLS is thinking, knowing now what clues were there on and before 9/11.

Originally posted by SergntMac
Things may be just starting, here's why.....

....Now that #1 and one of his high ranking assistants are in custody, each sect/cell is left to act on it's own. Terrorists, or opposing forces are not organized anymore, not even loosely. Each sect/cell is free to pursue their own endeavors, and I am sure one or two sect/cell leaders are thinking "If I do this right, I could be king someday, just like Sadam did it." I agree.

MapleLeafMerc

12-23-2003, 09:21 AM

I would guess the orange alert is based on info about groups that may want to "fast-forward" certain plans before they are caught. In spite of this, though, I still believe that your administration is doing the right thing, which is to stand firm and continue to flush the rats out wherever they can be found.

The facts that Gaddafi wants to talk and Pakistan is investigating Abdul Khan, the 'father' of their nuclear program are both good news. I believe that thanks to George Bush's administration, the world is safer now than two years ago, and this will continue in 2004.

bigslim

12-23-2003, 09:38 AM

I agree with merc406. I have grown to not trust anything that comes out of that administration. Every hoilday we hear more about threats than any other time.

DetGeno

12-23-2003, 09:41 AM

All I've got to say is that "It's about time that we've become a proactive instead of a reactive nation about our homeland security!" Eventhough it started after 9/11.

RCSignals

12-23-2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by MapleLeafMerc
The facts that Gaddafi wants to talk and Pakistan is investigating Abdul Khan, the 'father' of their nuclear program are both good news. I believe that thanks to George Bush's administration, the world is safer now than two years ago, and this will continue in 2004.

Exactly. Well said.

I'd much rather there be a "high alert" and apparently nothing happen, than the other way around.

RCSignals

12-23-2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by bigslim
I agree with merc406. I have grown to not trust anything that comes out of that administration. Every hoilday we hear more about threats than any other time.

I don't agree with merc406. This is not political and it is not smoke and mirrors. Yes, some people who are hoping to win election sure want you to think that it is.

Why do you think it more often comes around holiday times? Think like a terrorist.

kurly

12-23-2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by RCSignals
Exactly. Well said.

I'd much rather there be a "high alert" and apparently nothing happen, than the other way around.

I AGREE!

BUCKWHEAT

12-23-2003, 04:27 PM

Those who see political tricks under every rock will be the first to complain that "it's the government's fault" at the next 9/11-esque event. There are people out there who really want to kill us, negotiation is not an option.

At the USAFA, we were always proud of the phrase areospace power for peace. In this context, with vigilance, resolve and staying power, we will see more of the likes of Muamar Khadfi & the Aiatolliaso becomming more agreeable sorts. They are getting the picture that their only other option is to be dead sorts.

Lots of room for differing opinions...but I think we are seeing history in the making.

Billatpro

12-23-2003, 05:17 PM

Discussing political "opinions" like religion is a parlous walk at best much like walking in a mine field! Having said that, I pretty much agree with what has been said. My wife is traveling to Tx this christmas day to see a brother in dire health, I would not think of stoping her and I pray for her safety, which I would do regardless the "color alerts"

One thing I do know, we can not as a people allow these Bastards to win any kind of victory, no matter how long it takes. to do so would only invite more of the same from other lunatic's around the world.

With all that may I say God Bless and keep our soldiers, where ever they may be serving this christmas! as well as all of you.

AlabamaSS

12-23-2003, 05:28 PM

Here is some interesting reading concerning 9/11 before and after and all the key "players". All appears to be documented from actual news sources. It is long, but worth the read.

THE ABRIDGED 9/11 TIMELINE

http://www.unansweredquestions.org/timeline/main/timelineshort.html

bigslim

12-23-2003, 06:53 PM

Let's not turn this into a political forum. We were all brought here because of your love for a certain car. Let's not let our political views get into the way of this.

sailsmen

12-23-2003, 06:57 PM

With a murder a day in Orleans Parish with a Population under 500K it's Red Alert with out the terorist.

RCSignals

12-24-2003, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by AlabamaSS
Here is some interesting reading concerning 9/11 before and after and all the key "players". All appears to be documented from actual news sources. It is long, but worth the read.

THE ABRIDGED 9/11 TIMELINE

http://www.unansweredquestions.org/timeline/main/timelineshort.html

Talk about massaged propaganda. I'll take much of that link with a grain of salt. I won't be ordering the book either.

AlabamaSS

12-24-2003, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by RCSignals
Talk about massaged propaganda. I'll take much of that link with a grain of salt. I won't be ordering the book either.

Unerstandable. But, if you take a closer look at any part(s) of the website, you will see that the arthor is not interpreting nor rewriting the news. He is simply reporting it. He provides the links for everything that is said there that I have read and as stated above it is well documented. These links are to news agencies around the world that are the original arthors of the stories. If is propaganda, then you have most all of the reporting news agencies in on it. IMHO ;)

p.s. sorry for this being off topic instead of being related to cars..

RCSignals

12-24-2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by AlabamaSS
Unerstandable. But, if you take a closer look at any part(s) of the website, you will see that the arthor is not interpreting nor rewriting the news. He is simply reporting it. He provides the links for everything that is said there that I have read and as stated above it is well documented. These links are to news agencies around the world that are the original arthors of the stories. If is propaganda, then you have most all of the reporting news agencies in on it. IMHO ;)

p.s. sorry for this being off topic instead of being related to cars..

OK, you need to look up the definition of the word Propagnda
My words were "massaged propaganda"
Yes, he includes HTML pages on his web site, to NEWS stories.
If you've actually followed them, you'll see slight differences in the stories, and his brief renditions of them.

and yes, sometimes NEWS agencies themselves do not just report the bare "truth", having an agenda all their own.

One also has to wonder, in reading many of the related NEWS stories, why they, the NEWS agencies, would seem to portray so freely what is essentially Top Secret Intelligence reports, and other information which should not be privy to them.
You'd think the NEWS agencies have the best "Intelligence" network on earth. I assure you, they do not.

SHERIFF

12-24-2003, 04:13 PM

I just intercepted a cell phone conversation. Meeting at Burger King by the mall was mentioned. I think every Burger King in the entire country located by a a mall should be alerted. :)

junehhan

12-25-2003, 08:39 PM

RC, i'm glad you mentioned it, because I was thinking the same thing myself. Also, although I don't want to get politically involved, I strongly believe that this administration has done more for our safety, than any other administration ever before. One thing that a country cannot show terrorists, is weakness which is being handled very well.

MapleLeafMerc

12-26-2003, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by AlabamaSS
These links are to news agencies around the world that are the original arthors of the stories. If is propaganda, then you have most all of the reporting news agencies in on it. IMHO ;)

AlabamaSS, Hi and season's greetings!

With all due respect, I couldn't find a lot of mainstream, bricks and mortar news sources in your link. I just wanted to say that, IMHO, the website you gave for this 9/11 timeline leads to what my university professors would have called a polemic. Merriam-Webster Online defines polemic as

1 a : an aggressive attack on or refutation of the opinions or principles of another b : the art or practice of disputation or controversy -- usually used in plural but sing. or plural in constr.
2 : an aggressive controversialist : DISPUTANT

Since almost every source at the link seems to be critical of Bush's policies it really doesn't look or feel like objective reporting; more like someone with their own axe to grind.

Just my opinion, no biggie in the long run. :up:

Best regards,

Maple

PS: A reference was made about getting political here. I would just like to say that I'd like this place to be like meeting you all in person. We would start out talking about cars, but eventually other opinions, like politics, would slip out. If we can be civil discussing motor oil, why not politics? ;)

dwasson

12-26-2003, 07:21 PM

I live in a Polish neighborhood. The alert status here is plaid.

TripleTransAm

12-27-2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by dwasson
I live in a Polish neighborhood. The alert status here is plaid.

:lol: Genius, pure genius....

jabird56

12-27-2003, 10:12 PM

With the business I'm in, if HomeLand Security raises the alert posture there IS a viable reason for it. And because of the need for protecting the source or sources of the information they WILL not tell you the specifics, because it could cause the death of a source. Al Quada as a terrorist group want the biggist traumatic bang for the buck to terrorize the US and our "infidel" partners and what better timing would be during one of our most important holiday seasons. When we go to a heighten alert, it causes us to increase security aspects that will hopefully interfer with a potential terrorist assault on this country. The main problem that we have is that our borders are too porous to stop every idiot "I want to be a martyr" from getting into our country; however, we are doing the best we can and we have gotten a lot better since 9/11. I won't mull over the fact that the US INTEL community was basically "gutted" with the administration prior to the current Bush gang. We are recovering with the current George Bush and we are getting better but in the INTEL community it takes years to recover from where you were ten years ago. We got Saddum, we will get Bin Ladin when where how...news at 11 (he will make a mistake).
If raising the security level to protect Americans is a political statement to somebody, so be it. We're doing it to save lives.
Proud to be and American, proud to be a MM owner!

MapleLeafMerc

01-07-2004, 07:53 AM

More good news-

North Korea is offering to freeze its nuclear program, and India and Pakistan have agreed to formal peace talks. Both (IMHO) due to influence and pressure from the Bush administration.

junehhan

01-07-2004, 08:51 AM

Well said! One thing that you cannot show terrorists, and hostile nations, is fear and weakness, which is something this administration has never shown...............

MAD-3R

01-07-2004, 09:04 AM

No fear and no weakness. But at times a serious lack of sence...
Sorry, the hole consept of "Homeland Security" and the "Patriot Act" sounds WAY to familier....

Dr Caleb

01-07-2004, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by MAD-3R

Sorry, the hole consept of "Homeland Security" and the "Patriot Act" sounds WAY to familier....

"Never leave people in peace, because when they are in peace, you are nobody. Then they don't need you; your very purpose is gone. They need you only when there is danger; so create danger. If there is not real danger, at least create the climate of a false danger." -- Adolf Hitler

The "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001" or U.S.A P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act has little to do with preventing terrorism and more to do with expanding the FBI's abilities and reducing the American People's right to privacy.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot/

Rough translation of the department which oversaw the operation of the Schutzstaffel (SS) and Gestapo under Hitler was "Homeland Defense", if thats why it sounds familiar.

"History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain.

Haggis

01-07-2004, 09:58 AM

All I can say when my Great Grandfather come to this country he had to learn to speak English to get a job or just to get around. He also had to carry a passport stating that he was a naturalized American citizen and any time an LEO ask him he had to present it as proof.

So if they want to make it more difficult for foriengers to enter our country to make it safer for us, so we are not always looking over our shoulders wondering where the next terror threat is going to be, I say it is about time.

It is a shame that we as a nation have to be like this to protect our Freedoms and Liberties, but when you do can not distinguish friend from foe certain precautions need to be taken.
Look what you did you got me started, but before I start to ramble on and on. Here is my $.02 and I will add in another dollar if you like.

God Bless America
Gordon

MAD-3R

01-07-2004, 10:05 AM

The tightening of the borders doesn't bother me. IT was long over due. All those damn people sneaking across, stealing our jobs. Damn Canadians... Can't even tell them apart from us unless they start talking' eh? I mean, what's this all aboot? :)

But it's the increase in survailance and athority that has me worried. I fear what the goverment may do more then any Terrorist attack at this point.

Haggis

01-07-2004, 10:15 AM

As long as the checks and balances stay in place, as was put forth in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights I don't belive you have anything to worry about.

Now lay down next to Mac and all the bad men will go away....Now now listen to me. put your head back down on the pillow and think happy thoughts...that's right go to sleep your Guardian Angel will look out for you.

SHERIFF

01-07-2004, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
"Never leave people in peace, because when they are in peace, you are nobody. Then they don't need you; your very purpose is gone. They need you only when there is danger; so create danger. If there is not real danger, at least create the climate of a false danger." -- Adolf Hitler

Bingo!

I had forgotten this subject existed. Not long ago when I started one similar to it I was accused of being a communist and not supporting our government. The subject went south so fast I finally simply deleted it. :D

Dr Caleb

01-07-2004, 11:00 AM

This isn't the appropriate site to really get in to this discussion, but let me say it breaks my heart the changes I see in America since Sept 11. Perhaps it is Canadian cynicism, or our inate distrust of Government, but in the eyes of many here, any change in the civil liberties of anyone represents a loss to all democracies.

We see that many of the checks and balances which keep us all free are being eroded, and too many of us are apathetic in light of this, simply because it's in the name of 'Terrorism'. We are on the slippery slope, and are starting to lose traction. "A man who sacrifices a little privacy for a little security deserves nethier." Benjamin Franklyn

I know you were joking Mad, but I hear too often that the 9/11 hijackers were linked to Canada. This is false. There has never been any evidence that any of them were ever in Canada. It hurts us to hear this rumour repeated, because fault should be placed where it belongs, on Islamic Fundamentalists and Saudi Arabia specifically.

What is reality is how many guns smuggled into Canada every year from the US end up in the hands of gangs and are killing kids on our streets, but our 'Gun Registry' is keeping those streets safe from skeet shooters and deer hunters. Our borders will always remain open to our American cousins.

Never assume a Canadian is less patriotic about their country as you are about yours. We, like America, have a long and proud tradition and culture, some of which is shared with the US. When we see stories in the paper like <a href='http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36024'>'People in American Cities consider Canadians wearing the Maple Leaf to be "unpatriotic"</a>', we laugh. Duuuuh!

Well, enough of that. Just had to get that off my chest. I guess there is balance here, because yesterday, I got into an oil thread on a Canadian Political site. :)

Dr Caleb

01-07-2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by SHERIFF
Bingo!

I had forgotten this subject existed. Not long ago when I started one similar to it I was accused of being a communist and not supporting our government. The subject went south so fast I finally simply deleted it. :D

Some people may consider it in bad taste to quote that man, but I always say it's better to learn from history that to repeat it. If that portion of history taught us some difficult lessons, then we should take note of them and never repeat them. "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those who study history realise we are." - (I forget who).

Political correctness is killing our culture. Germans no longer name their children "Adolph", which was a fine name. No one can have mustache like Charlie Chaplain without being labelled a 'Facist'. A religious symbol for thousands of years, the swastika, is now taboo because it symbolizes that era of our history and the efforts of one lunatic.

If facts offend people, then those people are a little too sensitive for my personality. Nothing personal intended to anyone I offend, but deal with it.

Haggis

01-07-2004, 11:58 AM

Well said Dr. Caleb. It is a shame that we must give up an Rights due to a few who would try to hurt us and take away those Freedoms.

I personally do not hold any Canadian responsible for 9/11. We in America can not even trust our own citizens, ie Oklahoma City, the mailing of Anthrax through the postal service and even the Gangs in our Big cities are all acts of terrorism.

But remember if America falls will Canda be far behind?

SergntMac

01-07-2004, 12:39 PM

Turn the clock back far enough, and none of us lived here, except the Native American, and you know what we did to him. Slowly, over time, we came from foregin shores to populate the Americas. We were refugees from our home land, repressed and running to be free from vicious governments. When it was time, we formed our own governments (CA and US) but always kept a syspicious eye on their behavior.

I don't know how Canadian government works, but I don't expect it to be remarkably different from American government. For LEOs, its an intricate system of check and balances which draw authority from the government, and apply that within a set of fixed, yet very dynamic rules. It changes daily, hopefully for the betterment of all involved. Sadly, every once in a while the Supreme Court hands down a decision that hurts everyone, and it's back to square one.

The LEO is responsible for keeping the peace and protecting ALL who cross American borders. Sometime this task is specific, such as Game Wardens and Meter Maids, somethime it's specifically not specific, like Homeland Security. Still, the goal is to keep peace and protect, and that is accomplished by making laws and enforcing laws.

If there's a drug house on the block pitching dope, it's a target for the police because pitching dope is against the law, right? However, it's also a target because the police mission is to protect the remaining residents from the traffic a drug house invites. Putting bad guys in jail is how that gets done, but I assure you a few peaceful and law abiding citizens who live on that block will get challenged as they go about their day. By and large, things run smooth, and eventually the dope house gets closed, hopefully for good.

Do the residents complain? Surely they do, first about the dope house, and again later about the methods of the police. They think little of how the checks and balances work, and don't understand why we just don't drive over and burn the house down for them. It takes time to gather evidence and build a case, because without that, the police cannot, and should not apply their authority.

Since 9-11-01, America is the block police patrol, and the people in America are the citizens from that block. The challenge is no longer to protect a single city block from one drug house, but an entire country from sinister and diabolical evil. The rules are pretty much the same, the government team is clearly visible on the playing field, and the enemy can hide anywhere and everywhere it can imagine. Cops follow rules, criminals do not.

Yup, things are stepped up a bit, you may have to show ID when not cashing a check. You may get your picture taken when you visit a landmark that may be a target. You may get questioned when you balk at either. You may have to empty your pockets at the airport, and you may lose that trusty pocket knife you have legally carried on your person since Uncle Ralph gave it you you on you 13th birthday. Yup, its a tad more inconveinent to travel across America, but the goal is to protect, and the method is applied fairly across the board.

Keep in mind that the landmarks remain open for your enjoyment despite their value as a target of terrorists. Your plane will take off, and you should understand that no one else has their trusty pocket knife with them either. You can still visit Disneyworld and Vegas, they're both still open, but you may have to take your shoes off before they let you in.

When it's a whole continent you protect, one that was built on insuring that everyone has the freedom to cross the few and easy borders there are to cross, how else would you do it?

Comparasions to Hitler are unfair. He was a mad man who wanted to control the entire world, or, destroy what he could not control. If you want to compare Hitler, compare him to Sadaam and Osama, now his quotes really make sense, eh?

One more thing...Back when I was on the street, each day I would pick a block, park my squad, and take a walk down the street. If there is 20 houses on this block, 12 residents would be happy to see me, and enjoy a few minutes talking with me, some would even offer refreshments. 4 would run from their homes asking what was wrong, why are the police here, who did it, what did they do, did I catch them yet and why not. 3 would point out how my squad was too close to their fire plug, and insist that I move it immediately, and 1...

1 stood behind closed drapes, peeking, recording the day and time of my visit. 1 would check their records and see that I stopped by just last month. 1 would then call my boss and complain about my constant harassment. 1 might even sue me, because I dared to wave at the movement in his drapes. Afterall, I just wrongfully identified 1 as the "informant" to his neighbors.

If I stop on your block someday, who are you?

Dr Caleb

01-07-2004, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Haggis

But remember if America falls will Canda be far behind?

I assume you are implying the US annexing "America Junior?" :)

An event that I hope never comes. North America hasn't seen brother fighting brother for 200 years (unlike Europe, we always have to go over there and make them play nicely together). Something I hope will never have to happen again.

But no offense to anyone serving in Iraq right now - the most powerful military on Earth (right now) is having difficulty maintaining law and order in the 46th largest country (by land mass) in the world.

I think the problems trying to maintain law and order in the 2nd largest country by land mass would prove daunting indeed. Especially by people who know the US at least as well as you know yourselves. We've done it before, and we could do it again given proper motivation.

I sometimes think that is exactally what Canada needs to cure our rampant apathy. Just a little border skirmish. A kick in the tail to get us off our back bacon. Perhaps the US could take back the little bit of the US that lies within our borders. Don't know what I'm talking about, right? There is a little chunk of Minnisota, not physically connected to the continental US, but connected to eastern Manitoba. In the last 3 years or so, they held a referendum and voted to withdraw from the US, and join Canada. Hasn't happend yet, and there hasn't been much talk of it lately.

See this map:
http://www.gov.mb.ca/tgs/map/map3.pdf

I say the US is the most powerful military right now because in studying military history; if China were angered, we'd all be in deep doo-doo. 2 Billion angry people with AK-47's could do quite a bit of damage.

Haggis

01-07-2004, 12:49 PM

I finish my posting on this subject with a AMEN Mac!!

jerrym3

01-07-2004, 12:56 PM

Frankly, I'm surprised and elated that there hasn't been a successful terrorist suicide attack in this country. There is no way to stop a person who's willing to give up his/her life for a cause, as evil or misguided as that cause might be.

And, we know, it only takes one incident to start a tidal wave of news reports, political posturing, and a resulting drop in the economy.

As for the recent alert status, I have to believe that it's real and not fabricated for political purposes, because if I'm wrong and we've elected people that would stoop that low to remain in office, God help us all.

MAD-3R

01-07-2004, 12:59 PM

I hadn't heard about the 9/11 terrorist comming through Canada or having any dealing with our Friends to the North.

And as for Annexing Canada, never happen. You would join of your own free will in my Pax Americana.

:)

Canada could always come south and lay claim to the northern section of Maine we stole. :)

The story goes, after the War of 1812, Officials from both sides of the border met to make it official. After the Americans applied libral amounts of liquid refreshments they took the British and Canadian team to a river 20 or 30 miles further north, and had them sign off on the maps as official.

True or not, it's a funny story.

if China were angered, we'd all be in deep doo-doo. 2 Billion angry people with AK-47's could do quite a bit of damage.

China isn't even concidered a Super Power because they have no Navy worth speaking of, and with out that you can't project power beyond your borders. If we shared a border, then I would worry, but we don't.

MAD-3R

01-07-2004, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by jerrym3
As for the recent alert status, I have to believe that it's real and not fabricated for political purposes, because if I'm wrong and we've elected people that would stoop that low to remain in office, God help us all.

We'll...

You have more faith in them then I do.

Dr Caleb

01-07-2004, 02:22 PM

Sorry everyone, but as always, my posts are intended to inform, not to anger anyone. I try to keep my opinion out of it where possible. What so often happens during this kind of discussion is Canadians try to give our American friends a brief overview of opinions and views from different perspectives from within Canada, and around the world. Americans somehow think we are being critical, and becoming offended when we try to inform rather than judge them.

It usually degenerates with "Well, we'll just invade Canada..." or something along those lines and Canucks reply with "Yea, you tried that once and we burned down your whitehouse and sent you packing". "Yea, those were the British, there was no Canada then". . . ad nauseum.

I really don't want to have that kind of discussion here, because I value this site too much, but I would like to respond to you Sarge.

Originally posted by SergntMac

I don't know how Canadian government works, but I don't expect it to be remarkably different from American government.

It is quite a bit different. America is a Democratic Republic. The government is guided by the will of the people. You know how it works, so I'll spare the description.

Canada is a Parlamentary system. We elect someone to represent us, and that person belongs to a party. Once elected, the party with the most members in Parlament becomes the Government. The leader of the party is Prime Minister - top dog. The second largest party forms "Her Magisties Loyal Opposition" and call to task everything the government does. Once the Government passes a bill, it goes before the Senate. Senators are appointed by the Prime Minister for life. They are unaccountable to the people. Once the Senate passes it, it is given royal ascention by the Gov. General (or not, but it's usually rubber stamped) , the Queen of England's representative in Canada.

The Governor General is the head of our Military, and also appointed by the PM, approved by the Senate and the Queen.

Things work a little differently, basically, we elect our Member of Parlament, then never hear from them again until they really screw up and make the news or want to be re-elected. :)

Originally posted by SergntMac

Since 9-11-01, America is the block police patrol, and the people in America are the citizens from that block. The challenge is no longer to protect a single city block from one drug house, but an entire country from sinister and diabolical evil. The rules are pretty much the same, the government team is clearly visible on the playing field, and the enemy can hide anywhere and everywhere it can imagine. Cops follow rules, criminals do not.

No one denies America the right to protect itself in any way it sees fit, and no one has anything but respect for the cop on the street. But in that defense, some feel that many of your rights have been eroded.

Trials are being held, where the charges are never released, the verdicts are never know and even the defendants are not known. There are people being detained since 9-11-01 who have never been charged with anything. The USA PATRIOT act gives the FBI the ability to obtain phone, email, credit card info etc without a warrant, and without judicial oversight. All under the moniker of "Terrorist Threat". That is the whole point of an open, adversarial judicial system - to ensure injustice does not happen.

The world does not want the US to be it's police force, which is where people like Osama came from to begin with.

As two recent examples; Maher Arar, a Canadian Telecom Engineer was detained in New York while returning from a vacation in Tunisia. He was deported to *Jordan* (even though he is a Canadian Citizen) and then shipped to Syria, where he was imprisoned for 10 months and tortured. He was released in November. He was never charged with anything, and has never been convicted of anything. He was on a 'US terrorist watch list', and the current theory as to why he was on that watch list was because he may have had the son of a person who ships computer parts to Iran witness a rental contract a few years ago. The guy who witnessed that rental contract is currently in a Syrian jail, and hasn't been charged with anything.

I'm not saying these guys are squeaky clean, but Internationl law states that a person must be deported to ethier the country which he came from or the country of his citizenship. For Mr Arar, Jordan is nethier.

Originally posted by SergntMac

Yup, things are stepped up a bit, you may have to show ID when not cashing a check.

I don't mind having to show ID whenever requested. Many places in the world require this as a simple security precaution. What I do mind, is when it's been agreed that Canadians will not be fingerprinted and photgraphed when entering the US, but they end up getting fingerprinted and photographed anyway. But not all of us.

I don't mind a little extra security, but I don't want to be treated like a common criminal on my next trip to Disneyland.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1073344208328&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724

Originally posted by SergntMac

Comparasions to Hitler are unfair. He was a mad man who wanted to control the entire world, or, destroy what he could not control. If you want to compare Hitler, compare him to Sadaam and Osama, now his quotes really make sense, eh?

No comparison to Hitler was ever intended. That quote was intended to give insight into how that particular dictator thought, and how some parts of the world asses the whole start of this thread, the ever changing "Terror Alert". Comparisons to Osama and many Mullas in Iran are entirely accurate. I thought that quote would arise ire in some, as some people react emotionally rather than dispassionately.

Originally posted by SergntMac

If I stop on your block someday, who are you?

I'm the guy who will (and has in the past to others in your line of work) offer you a cup of joe.

woaface

01-07-2004, 02:58 PM

Wow, I'm glad (I think) that I skipped over all this. Hey read todays paper (January 7th.) President Bush's idea of an Immigration overhaul sounds more like a late christmasmas present for the open-borders lobby.

RCSignals

01-07-2004, 04:09 PM

well said Mac

and about the Patriot act. Anyone who thinks it overturns any portion of the Constitution or Bill of Rights has their head in the sand.

To draw a comparison to it and Hitlers regime is an insult.

Has anyone read the "War measures act" which was imposed in Canada during the FLQ crisis?

RCSignals

01-07-2004, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Dr Caleb

Canada is a Parlamentary system. We elect someone to represent us, and that person belongs to a party. Once elected, the party with the most members in Parlament becomes the Government. The leader of the party is Prime Minister - top dog. The second largest party forms "Her Magisties Loyal Opposition" and call to task everything the government does. Once the Government passes a bill, it goes before the Senate. Senators are appointed by the Prime Minister for life. They are unaccountable to the people. Once the Senate passes it, it is given royal ascention by the Gov. General (or not, but it's usually rubber stamped) , the Queen of England's representative in Canada.

The Governor General is the head of our Military, and also appointed by the PM, approved by the Senate and the Queen.

Things work a little differently, basically, we elect our Member of Parlament, then never hear from them again until they really screw up and make the news or want to be re-elected. :)

The"Queen of England" is, as far as the Canadian system is concerned, the "Queen of Canada" Yes Canada is a constitutional monarchy.

The head of the Canadian military is the Queen of Canada, represented by the Governor General, in the Queen's absence.

Remember when you were sworn in, it was "I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to her majesty Queen Elizabeth the second, her heirs and successors, according to law, so help me God" Unless of course you swore a "solemn affirmation" in which case the references to God were omitted.

RCSignals

01-07-2004, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by woaface
Wow, I'm glad (I think) that I skipped over all this. Hey read todays paper (January 7th.) President Bush's idea of an Immigration overhaul sounds more like a late christmasmas present for the open-borders lobby.

It may not be quite that bad. Read some other sources.

here is a littl emore on the subject

http://start.earthlink.net/track?add=1&id=1017941&url=/newsarticle%3Fcat%3D7%26aid%3D D7VU7RQG1_story

Dr Caleb

01-07-2004, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by RCSignals
well said Mac

and about the Patriot act. Anyone who thinks it overturns any portion of the Constitution or Bill of Rights has their head in the sand.

To draw a comparison to it and Hitlers regime is an insult.

Has anyone read the "War measures act" which was imposed in Canada during the FLQ crisis?

I knew that quote would stir up the hornets nest. The question should have been "Could 9-11-01 have been prevented if this legislation had been in force". As you well know, the war measures act is a draconian piece of legislation, but it has time limits, and has been on the books for a very long time since it was used 30+ years ago.

Again, these are not my opinions, just food for thought.

http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,61792,00.html?tw=wn_top head_1
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MB81.DTL&type=printable
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/010704A.shtml

I will not post further on this subject, and regret posting in the first place, for reasons stated above.

kurly

01-07-2004, 05:12 PM

So Sorry! Tough! To Bad! But . . .

I am absolutely not humble, apologetic, or embarassed to express my love, loyalty, and pride in the United States of America.

As a Vietnam Vet, I can honestly express my gratitude and appreciation for what our President, Congress, fellow citizens, and most of all the brave men and women in our military services, have done and are doing to protect our rights and freedoms, post 9/11.

I am also proud of our many years of support and sacrifice to insure and preserve these same freedoms both here in America and around the world.

TripleTransAm

01-07-2004, 07:29 PM

Some very interesting debating going on here... it's exchanges of this nature that expands an individual's mind. While it's important to remain faithful to one's convictions and beliefs, keeping an open mind to others' points-of-view can only serve to enrich one's own knowledge. Glenn, I wouldn't apologize for your participation in this thread, you brought up some interesting viewpoints. In fact, no participant should apologize. It always pays to put forth varying facts and viewpoints, it would be a crime to neglect history or opposing viewpoints in the name of political correctness.

An interesting thing I've noticed about the average Canadian is that he/she can be utterly patriotic with every fiber of their existence, yet not be afraid to be critical (and I mean bitterly so) about any aspect of our country. Political ideology can vary so dramatically between residents of eastern and western provinces, but invariably there is always a common ground that is found in severely critiquing the current administration. Keeps things in perspective, and in check. A feedback loop, if you wish.

Speaking as an engineer, closed-loop feedback is always good in a system. Whatever is present at the output serves as a direct influence (criticism) on the system's operation, which then serves to change the next instance of the system's output. This applies in all things in life... in my belief, once a person stops questioning and evaluating things, that person has become a prisoner of their beliefs. Radical Islamic fundamentalism is a good example of this... poor imprisoned fools. I don't wish that kind of ignorance on anyone... but in the end, it's up to each and every one of us to stay on our toes.

woaface

01-07-2004, 08:19 PM

I believe an immigrant from somewheres around Asia wrote the Patriot Act. There ya go.

woaface

01-07-2004, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by RCSignals
It may not be quite that bad. Read some other sources.
here is a little more on the subject
http://start.earthlink.net/track?add=1&id=1017941&url=/newsarticle%3Fcat%3D7%26aid%3D D7VU7RQG1_story

What happens when they retire and apply for Social Security that Americans have worked hard for? Reporter Joel Mowbray said a year ago that this raw deal may well cost overburdened U.S. taxpayers $345 billion over the next 20 years. Probably much more. They'll be able to get it much more quickly. Great! More debt for America! According to Rep. Clay Shaw, R-Fla., chairman of the House Ways and Means subcommittee on Social Security, the befits paid may exceed the revenues of SS by 2015. Illegal is illegal. We can't take in everyone, and give them money for almost friggin free. Can't they just come legally? Do we need another 9/11 to get our borders covered? It's our country, not theirs. Their burden isn't my burden. To quote Michelle Malkin, an Immigrant, editorial writer and proponent of a heavy border policy...

"Unbelievably, the White House is trying to convince us to embrace this global ripoff because it "rewards work." No, it rewards criminal behavior. The plan will siphon off the hard-earned tax dollars of American workers who may never see a dime of their confiscated earnings and fork it over to foreigners guilty of at least four acts of federal law-breaking: crossing the border illegally, working illegally, engaging in tax fraud and using bogus documents.
Giving money to scam artists will simply result in more fraud -- not only by Mexican agricultural workers, but also by Middle Easterners such as Youssef Hmimssa, who provided fake Social Security numbers and fraudulent drivers' licenses to members of an accused terrorist cell in Detroit. "If you have the right connection, you can get anything," he testified before the Senate last fall."

HEY RC! I'm not yelling at you....I'm just yelling!!! :D

junehhan

01-07-2004, 10:15 PM

Bias in news reporting has almost completely turned me off of watching the news broadcasts. Now days, I take anything I read or hear of in the media with a grain of salt, until I can read some of the sources and facts that were involved.

Mac, well said, and Kurly, I am grateful for everyone who has served this country like you, other veterans, and current members of the armed forces.........
One thing we cannot forget about 9/11, is that it changed the rules of the game forever.

As far as China goes, I believe the fact that they have 2 billion people is useless as stated earlier because they don't have a Navy. Besides, with some of the scary technology available today, all it would take are several well dropped Hydrogen bombs to wipe out the entire country anyway if heaven forbid someone decided to do that. While you can arm the entire country with an Ak47 assault rifle, you can't make up for the fact that China lacks any decent technology. That may be one of the reasons why China is one of the most aggressive countries at committing military, industrial, and economic espionage here in the USA. It's no secret that China actively seeks out former chinese citizens who hold high positions in the government, and as well as at many companies. I believe that China's biggest threat is their ability to actively and continously steal our information, not their military............

RCSignals

01-08-2004, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
I knew that quote would stir up the hornets nest. The question should have been "Could 9-11-01 have been prevented if this legislation had been in force". As you well know, the war measures act is a draconian piece of legislation, but it has time limits, and has been on the books for a very long time since it was used 30+ years ago.

Again, these are not my opinions, just food for thought.

http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,61792,00.html?tw=wn_top head_1
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MB81.DTL&type=printable
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/010704A.shtml

I will not post further on this subject, and regret posting in the first place, for reasons stated above.

Stir a Hornets nest Glenn? What Hornets?
You don't like the War measures act being brought up? The Patriot act has a long way to go to catch up to it, that's for sure.
When it was imposed during the FLQ crisis Canadian were told "Don't worry, it only applies to certain people in the Province of Quebec. Sure it did ;)

You like to bring information, but so far it's always "Devil's advocate" information.
How about a little information about the views of CSIS on Canadian immigration and al queda cells operating in Canada?
That would make for interesting reading.

This just discussion Glenn, in the same vein you bring. Don't take it any other way.

RCSignals

01-08-2004, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by woaface
I believe an immigrant from somewheres around Asia wrote the Patriot Act. There ya go.

Possible, but they alone didn't enact it

RCSignals

01-08-2004, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by woaface

HEY RC! I'm not yelling at you....I'm just yelling!!! :D

Yes I realise that.

Just remember that right now it is just a proposal and isn't law. One good thing I see about it is that, aside from a proposal at least being made, it is bringing discussion and debate, and not just along party lines.
That hopefully will result in a decent final product.

woaface

01-08-2004, 07:34 AM

..."Dinh, 35, is widely known -- and reviled -- as the primary architect of the Patriot Act. Until May, he was an assistant attorney general for the Office of Legal Policy in John Ashcroft's Justice Department. (He stepped down to return to his law school post at Georgetown University.) Since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Dinh told The Christian Science Monitor, "our nation's ability to defend itself against terror has been not only my vocation but my obsession."
......An immigrant himself who escaped from communist Vietnam a quarter-century ago aboard a rickety boat, Dinh notes that foreign visitors to our shores are guests obligated to obey the laws -- some which "have not been enforced for 50 years." It was time, Dinh and his colleagues decided, to start enforcing them."

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20030702.shtml

woaface

01-08-2004, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by RCSignals
Yes I realise that.
Just remember that right now it is just a proposal and isn't law. One good thing I see about it is that, aside from a proposal at least being made, it is bringing discussion and debate, and not just along party lines.

Yup...Yup:D.

MapleLeafMerc

01-08-2004, 07:57 AM

All I can say is I love a good 'rhubarb' ;) Seriously, though, it think it is admirable that we can have a discussion like this and keep it friendly. Kind of like practising what we preach.

Dr Caleb- You mentioned Canadians' innate distrust of gov't- I think that varies widely across this country. Otherwise how do people in the east keep electing the ethically bankrupt Liberals (apologies to any Liberal supporters, but c'mon- an ethics commissioner that reports privately to the PM?) And re the US as a world police force, I would just say that the world may not outwardly want it, but does need it. As far as feeling like a common criminal when travelling by plane, all I can say is that taking my shoes off or being fingerprinted beats the heck out of dying in a fiery plane explosion.

SergntMac, that's a good way of describing one of the toughest jobs in the world. Sadly, there are now parts of Toronto where the residents all of those 20 houses would hide inside when you approached. Last year there were over 30 unsolved murders because the 'community' in question would not and still will not come forward with information.

Haggis, I took your comment about the US 'falling' to mean falling to terrorism, and if this is correct, yes, we would succumb as well.

The balance between security and individual freedom is a very serious question, and there are some who fear that we are giving up too much of the latter for the former. I think we are all having to adjust 'on the fly' to the new reality, which is that there are some really, really evil people in this world who are prepared to do the previously unthinkable to achieve their 'goals'. I just thank God that we live in the freest, fairest part of the world. Our democratic governments may not be perfect, but they still beat the c**p out of what most of the rest of the world has to offer!

jerrym3

01-08-2004, 09:06 AM

Unfortunately, in today's war, the enemy can be amongst us without our knowing.

There's no uniform or separate language to identify the bad guys from the good guys; therefore, you have to go on the basis of probability and profiling.

I'm a middle aged, grey haired, caucasion businessman. Does it make sense to subject me to a 100% search at the airport gate and let the olive skinned middle easterner behind me go unchecked?

No.

Is it fair?

No.

But, nobody said life is fair. I wish it didn't have to be this way, but we did not establish the ground rules for this conflict, and the stakes are way too high to wave the "must always be fair" banner while risking another 9/11 or worse.

I never noticed the Coast Guard cruising the Hudson River in previous high alerts, but they are cruising now.

Dr Caleb

01-08-2004, 09:13 AM

Ok, I'll recind my previous statement about not posting, in the interest of discussion.

I do like to play the devils advocate though :) As Steve said above, I'm an engineer too. I plan for the worst to happen, double it, add 10% and hope I'm wrong. The glass is not half empty, the glass was designed too large.

Negative feedback is the best way to prevent a system from oscillating out of control, and Canadians are great at being very self critical and providing themselves with that negative feedback.

No, the hornets I was refering to were stirred up by quoting a facist dictator. Again, if we don't learn something from that time in world history, we lose something valuable.

Originally posted by RCSignals

You don't like the War measures act being brought up? The Patriot act has a long way to go to catch up to it, that's for sure.
When it was imposed during the FLQ crisis Canadian were told "Don't worry, it only applies to certain people in the Province of Quebec. Sure it did ;)

On the contrary, the enactment of the War Measures Act proves that if given broad sweeping powers, the RCMP will abuse them. Don't anyone take that the wrong way, I consider many RCMP officers to be my good drinking buddies, but in every barrell, there are bad apples. Look at the wired link link I posted above. "Financial Institutions" can be forced to turn over your information, and be forced to not reveal the disclosure. Insurance companies, Jewlery stores, Libraries (from the original act) can be classed as "Financial Institutions" all are compelled to turn over information without a warrant. We all know that Jihads require bling-bling and copies of 'Catcher in the Rye'.

IANAL, but technically, none of this violates your 4th amendment rights, because your personal record were in posession of a third party, so it is 'public' knowledge. But what (in my original post, links to patriot act analsys) did the patriot act provide in law, that did not exist before? According to the analysis, it only provided broader sweeping powers for law enforcment, without the judicial oversight. Creation of Homeland security was what was needed, as the hindsight analysis of 9-11 found that it was inter-agency communications that faild to prevent the terror attacks.

The exact opposite has just come into force in Canada. Our new privacy laws state that no institution can use your personal information for anything without your prior consent. Your video store can't even call you to tell you your movie is late, if hey haven't asked your permission beforehand. Pizza outlets can't keep records of your previous orders. And best of all, no one calls with steam cleaning bargains for my hardwood floors and leather couches. :lol:

Originally posted by RCSignals

You like to bring information, but so far it's always "Devil's advocate" information.
How about a little information about the views of CSIS on Canadian immigration and al queda cells operating in Canada?
That would make for interesting reading.

This just discussion Glenn, in the same vein you bring. Don't take it any other way.

CSIS has no ofiicial opinion on anything. I can only make assumptions on them based on their actions.

What al queda cells? I've never heard that any al queda cells were operating in Canada. I remember 14 men who were attending a fake school were arrested, and the innuendo was that they 'had possible links to members of a terror organization', but all 14 men were released without charges. Some were deported because they entered the country based on false pretenses. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I do know that CSIS put Maher Arar on a terror watch list because of a very weak (friend of a brother of a guy in the building) link to Iran, which earned him 10 months in a Syrian jail. And the 'guy in the building' is still in the same Syrian jail. Shortly after Mr Arar returned from Syria, there was an anonymous leak in the 'intellegence community' that Mr Arar spent time at an Al Queda training camp in Afghanistan, but his passport shows he's never been in the area of Afghanistan or Pakistan. If he's guilty - charge the man with something!

There have been many stories from Immigration officials about how our system works. Anyone can claim refugee status and will get their day before a review board. While they are waiting for the review, they can apply to emigrate through the normal channels, and work on a temporary visa. Normal wait times are a couple years, so if they have a kid, the child is a citizen, and authorities are reluctant to separate families, so the family gets to stay. Immigration officers say the obvious false claimants should be put back on the next plane outta here instead of being allowed to wait for a hearing.

Since the Auditor general stated there are 1 million more Social Insurance Numbers than there are actual live Canadians, the system needs to weed out the rampant fraud. We've also been told there are up to 5,000 (?) known war criminals currently in Canada, who have been charged, tried and convicted in their home countries. But their names and pictures and even general descriptions can't be released because it would 'violate their privacy'. There are also up to 50,000 people who have been ordered deported from Canada, but who have not reported to Immigration officials for deportation.

Huh? Why are these people in my country again?

A couple years ago there was a case in Edmonton where a Filipino nanny was working an extra job, in addition to being a nanny. This was all above board, and she paid her taxes like everyone else. Because this violated the terms of her work Visa (1 job only) she was deported back to the Phillipines.

Huh? Cause mass murder in Rwanda, and you get to say, work really really hard, and you get deported?

Many people, such as myself feel that any organization that supports terrorist tactics should be banned from Canadian soil. But I guess Hamas made a large enough donation to the LIEberal party, so they get to stay. But it goes too far as well. Canadian Soldiers were fundraising for a child in Afghanistan who needed a bone marrow transplant. They raised enough money to send him to the UAE, he had the operation and is doing much better, but US officials siezed the money before they could pay the bills. The US forbids any fundraising in North America, UAE or Kuwait that is sent to Afghanistan. Ahhh well. Win some, lose most.

Dr Caleb

01-08-2004, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by MapleLeafMerc

Dr Caleb- You mentioned Canadians' innate distrust of gov't- I think that varies widely across this country. Otherwise how do people in the east keep electing the ethically bankrupt Liberals (apologies to any Liberal supporters, but c'mon- an ethics commissioner that reports privately to the PM?)

I can only assume they haven't been paying attention the last 10 years. :) For background and benefit of our US friends, in 1992, the LIEberals published a 'Red Book' outlining what their goals were while they were in office when they were first elected. Among those things were changing the Young Offenders Act to toughen it, so people under the age of 18 could be tried as adults for crimes such as murder, rape and acts of voilence. The maximum penalty for young Offenders was 4 years in detention. It also included things like greater environmental protection, reducing industrial pollution, fairer representation for the West, more spending on Healthcare.

The only thing they actually did out of that book in 10 years was scrap the purchase of newer millitary helocopters, to replace the (then) 40 year old choppers the forces had. Now those 50 year old choppers require 10 hours of maintainence for every hour they fly. Some are dropping out of the skys, killing good soldiers and reducing our effectiveness in the field. And that whole gun registry thing. 1 Billion wasted to try to reduce gun crimes on something criminals will never use anyhow.

I can only guess that the East elected Liberals because they were not confident in the alternatives, and rumours spread by Liberal incumbents that the Alliance/Reform party were mostly 'red necked bigots' were believed by too many. Mr Spencer(PC), Mr Kilgour (Liberal) and Mr Mackay (PC) prove that there are bigots in any party.

Originally posted by MapleLeafMerc

Haggis, I took your comment about the US 'falling' to mean falling to terrorism, and if this is correct, yes, we would succumb as well.

In that light, if it ever happend, we'd have your backs.

Originally posted by MapleLeafMerc

The balance between security and individual freedom is a very serious question, and there are some who fear that we are giving up too much of the latter for the former. I think we are all having to adjust 'on the fly' to the new reality, which is that there are some really, really evil people in this world who are prepared to do the previously unthinkable to achieve their 'goals'. I just thank God that we live in the freest, fairest part of the world. Our democratic governments may not be perfect, but they still beat the c**p out of what most of the rest of the world has to offer!

Well said!

Dr Caleb

01-08-2004, 09:56 AM

Please forgive me if I've offended anyone with my comments here. A good friend passed away suddenly from throat cancer, and it's been a rough week so I am not myself. He worked as a guard at the Cross Cancer institute, and was kind to my mom while she was fighting lung cancer.

http://classifieds.canada.com/edmonton/archives/results.aspx?cls_id=33935&keyoper=ALL&keywords=%20McCALLUM,%20John%2 0Leslie&startday=6&startmonth=1&startyear=2004&endday=8&endmonth=1&endyear=2004

Bye Herb. Tonight, we'll drink to your memory.

XXX

Haggis

01-08-2004, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
Please forgive me if I've offended anyone with my comments here. A good friend passed away suddenly from throat cancer, and it's been a rough week so I am not myself. He worked as a guard at the Cross Cancer institute, and was kind to my mom while she was fighting lung cancer.

http://classifieds.canada.com/edmonton/archives/results.aspx?cls_id=33935&keyoper=ALL&keywords=%20McCALLUM,%20John%2 0Leslie&startday=6&startmonth=1&startyear=2004&endday=8&endmonth=1&endyear=2004

Bye Herb. Tonight, we'll drink to your memory.

XXX

I break my promise of silence to say no offense was taken by me from anyone here. Good back and forth comments not everyone thinks alike and if we did we would all have misplaced wings on our cars like Cruztaker....Sorry bud, but could not resist.

My sympathies on your's and his family's loss. Our prayers go out to his family at this time.

junehhan

01-08-2004, 11:11 AM

I've currently got 2 people in my life who are currently dying from Lung Cancer(terminal, too late), and my thoughts will be with you and his family tonight. Watching someone who you really care about slowly die from cancer is just one of the most painful things you can ever experience...........

Dr Caleb

01-08-2004, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by junehhan
I've currently got 2 people in my life who are currently dying from Lung Cancer(terminal, too late), and my thoughts will be with you and his family tonight. Watching someone who you really care about slowly die from cancer is just one of the most painful things you can ever experience...........

Dad only lasted a month. Mom lasted 6 years after her diagnosis. She was a tough lady, but there wasn't enough morphine in the western hemisphere. My friend John lasted 6 months. I too do not wish that experience on anybody, ethier the patient or the survivor.

Be thankful for the time you've had, remember only the good. My heart and prayers are with you and your friends.

RCSignals

01-09-2004, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
Ok, I'll recind my previous statement about not posting, in the interest of discussion.

I'm glad you did Glenn

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
On the contrary, the enactment of the War Measures Act proves that if given broad sweeping powers, the RCMP will abuse them.

Here is something. Given the broad sweeping powers of the War Measures Act, did the RCMP abuse them, or did they just do something incredibly stupid in an operation?
The War Measures act gave broad sweeping powers to much more than just the RCMP

Originally posted by Dr Caleb
But it goes too far as well. Canadian Soldiers were fundraising for a child in Afghanistan who needed a bone marrow transplant. They raised enough money to send him to the UAE, he had the operation and is doing much better, but US officials siezed the money before they could pay the bills. The US forbids any fundraising in North America, UAE or Kuwait that is sent to Afghanistan. Ahhh well. Win some, lose most.

Yes, but, don't you think this money could have been routed to it's destination differently, especially avoiding all "publicity" until after the event?

Sorry about your friend Glenn. It's never easy, even when expected

RCSignals

01-09-2004, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by MapleLeafMerc
All I can say is I love a good 'rhubarb' ;) Seriously, though, it think it is admirable that we can have a discussion like this and keep it friendly. Kind of like practising what we preach.

Dr Caleb- You mentioned Canadians' innate distrust of gov't- I think that varies widely across this country. Otherwise how do people in the east keep electing the ethically bankrupt Liberals (apologies to any Liberal supporters, but c'mon- an ethics commissioner that reports privately to the PM?) And re the US as a world police force, I would just say that the world may not outwardly want it, but does need it. As far as feeling like a common criminal when travelling by plane, all I can say is that taking my shoes off or being fingerprinted beats the heck out of dying in a fiery plane explosion.

SergntMac, that's a good way of describing one of the toughest jobs in the world. Sadly, there are now parts of Toronto where the residents all of those 20 houses would hide inside when you approached. Last year there were over 30 unsolved murders because the 'community' in question would not and still will not come forward with information.

Haggis, I took your comment about the US 'falling' to mean falling to terrorism, and if this is correct, yes, we would succumb as well.

The balance between security and individual freedom is a very serious question, and there are some who fear that we are giving up too much of the latter for the former. I think we are all having to adjust 'on the fly' to the new reality, which is that there are some really, really evil people in this world who are prepared to do the previously unthinkable to achieve their 'goals'. I just thank God that we live in the freest, fairest part of the world. Our democratic governments may not be perfect, but they still beat the c**p out of what most of the rest of the world has to offer!

Well said

Dr Caleb

01-09-2004, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by RCSignals
I'm glad you did Glenn

NP Duncan. I just wanted to avoid ticking anyone off.

Originally posted by RCSignals

Here is something. Given the broad sweeping powers of the War Measures Act, did the RCMP abuse them, or did they just do something incredibly stupid in an operation?
The War Measures act gave broad sweeping powers to much more than just the RCMP

I would say they abused them. When people across the country were arrested and held for a couple weeks without charges and released, people who due to location (Saskatchewan) would have nothing to do with goings on in Quebec; I would call that abuse.

If you know of any other incidents by departments other than the RCMP, I'd like to hear. I've never heard of any, and it would be an interesting twist to that whole affair. :)

Originally posted by RCSignals

Yes, but, don't you think this money could have been routed to it's destination differently, especially avoiding all "publicity" until after the event?

But why? Canada needs it's heros and good stories too. Kids in Kandahar pointing out landmines to Canadian troops so they avoid injury; Troops rallying to help sick children in a war ravaged country, digging fresh water wells, rebuilding schools and educating girls as well as boys, clearing mine fields and disposing of ordinance.

Afghanistan is off the list of bad countries, but IIRC, Iran is still on that list. Donations collected for victims in Bam are getting through, aren't they?

Originally posted by RCSignals

Sorry about your friend Glenn. It's never easy, even when expected

Thanks bud. He was a good man, and will be missed.