Teacher unions explained??

[MERCMAN]

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/03/teachers-unions-explained.html

[Mr. Man]

HA!!

PS I was wondering if you ever post anything other than these interesting links or is that tucked away with teaching economics in school.:D

[sailsmen]

“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.” George Meany -- the former president of the A.F.L.-C.I.O -- in 1955

112 - Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service
August 16, 1937

Read more at the American Presidency Project: Franklin D. Roosevelt: Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15445#ixzz1GcUDC qDS

"My dear Mr. Steward:

As I am unable to accept your kind invitation to be present on the occasion of the Twentieth Jubilee Convention of the National Federation of Federal Employees, I am taking this method of sending greetings and a message.

Reading your letter of July 14, 1937, I was especially interested in the timeliness of your remark that the manner in which the activities of your organization have been carried on during the past two decades "has been in complete consonance with the best traditions of public employee relationships." Organizations of Government employees have a logical place in Government affairs.

The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry. Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."

I congratulate the National Federation of Federal Employees the twentieth anniversary of its founding and trust that the convention will, in every way, be successful.


Very sincerely yours,"

Franklin D. Roosevelt
President

[sailsmen]

Where ever it is legal for employees to ban together, form a union and collectively bargain with employers it should also be legal for employers to als ban together, form a union and collectively bargain with employees.

We live in a very mobile society, transportation is available to all to move seeking opportunities.

[sailsmen]

March 10, 2011


Mr. Tom Ellis, President


Marshall & Ilsley Corporation


770 N. Water Street


Milwaukee, WI 53202


SENT VIA FASCIMILE AND REGULAR MAIL


Dear Mr. Ellis:



As you undoubtedly know, Governor Walker recently proposed a "budget


adjustment bill" to eviscerate public employees' right to collectively bargain in


Wisconsin. ..



As you also know, Scott Walker did not campaign on this issue when he ran for


office. If he had, we are confident that you would not be listed among his largest


contributors. As such, we are contacting you now to request your support.



The undersigned groups would like your company to publicly oppose Governor


Walker's efforts to virtually eliminate collective bargaining for public employees in


Wisconsin. While we appreciate that you may need some time to consider this


request, we ask for your response by March 17. In the event that you do not


respond to this request by that date, we will assume that you stand with


Governor Walker and against the teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters,


and other dedicated public employees who serve our communities.



In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining,


please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the


goods and services provided by your company. However, if you join us, we will


do everything in our power to publicly celebrate your partnership in the fight to


preserve the right of public employees to be heard at the bargaining table.


Wisconsin's public employee unions serve to protect and promote equality and


fairness in the workplace. We hope you will stand with us and publicly share that


ideal.



In the event you would like to discuss this matter further, please contact the


executive Director of the Wisconsin Professional Police Association, Jim Palmer,


at 608.273.3840.



Thank you in advance for your consideration. We look forward to hearing from


you soon.



James L. Palmer, Executive Director


Wisconsin Professional Police Association


Mahlon Mitchell,President


Professional Professional Fire Fighters


Jim Conway, President


International Association of Fire Fighters Local 311


John Matthews, Execuctive Director


Madison Teachers, Inc.


Keith Patt, Executive Director


Green Bay Education Association


Bob Richardson, President


Dane County Deputy Sheriffs Association


Dan Frei, Prersident


Madison Professional Police Officers Association

[sailsmen]

MILWAUKEE, March 11, 2011 /PRNewswire/ ‐‐ M&I Bank (M&I) today issued the following statement in response to a letter it received from a union group threatening to boycott M&I if M&I does not publicly oppose Governor Walker's budget repair bill.


M&I has not taken, and will not take, a position either for or against the budget repair bill. As M&I has publicly stated before:


‐‐ M&I has not contributed to any candidate and did not contribute to Governor Walker or Mayor Barrett in the last gubernatorial election.


‐‐ M&I has over 6,000 employees in Wisconsin, and, in the great tradition of political freedom in this country, those employees have the right to contribute to the candidate of their choice.


‐‐ M&I employees contributed to both Wisconsin gubernatorial candidates in the last election.


M&I is proud of our tradition of standing with teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters, and other dedicated public employees to support, improve, and grow Wisconsin communities. M&I has 188 branches in cities, towns, and villages throughout Wisconsin, and M&I employees work side‐by‐side with these dedicated public employees in civic endeavors across the state.

[sailsmen]

I can choose which bank, snowball stand or gas station I want to or not to do business with. I cannot pick which Police Dept.

[SC Cheesehead]

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/03/teachers-unions-explained.html


Good stuff, Maynard! :D

[tbone]

Normally I would comment on these issues but I'm retiring from it. At least here on MM.net. Sick of :argue:!!

[duhtroll]

You people can't read for ****.

I'm going to bold a paragraph you posted. Read it this time.

FDR is talking about the ability to strike, not the process of bargaining prior to strike. It is even in the TITLE. See second bolded selection from the original letter.

So once again, you are taking things out of context.

As for the original blog post by an economics professor, there are so many logical fallacies and straw man arguments I'm not sure where to begin.

I'm just going to ask all of you haters out there how many rich teachers you know.

(sound of crickets)

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-february-28-2011/crisis-in-dairyland---angry-curds

Oh, and since you all like to bring up dead presidents for your points, here's one:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-10-2011/moment-of-zen---ronald-reagan-supports-unions




“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.” George Meany -- the former president of the A.F.L.-C.I.O -- in 1955

112 - Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service
August 16, 1937

Read more at the American Presidency Project: Franklin D. Roosevelt: Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15445#ixzz1GcUDC qDS

"My dear Mr. Steward:

As I am unable to accept your kind invitation to be present on the occasion of the Twentieth Jubilee Convention of the National Federation of Federal Employees, I am taking this method of sending greetings and a message.

Reading your letter of July 14, 1937, I was especially interested in the timeliness of your remark that the manner in which the activities of your organization have been carried on during the past two decades "has been in complete consonance with the best traditions of public employee relationships." Organizations of Government employees have a logical place in Government affairs.

The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry. Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."

I congratulate the National Federation of Federal Employees the twentieth anniversary of its founding and trust that the convention will, in every way, be successful.


Very sincerely yours,"

Franklin D. Roosevelt
President

[duhtroll]

So it is OK for mods on this forum to post inflammatory threads?

Nice abuse of power and hypocritical maneuvering to each and every person on this forum whom you have censored.

This sucks, Dan. Thought you were better than that.


http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/03/teachers-unions-explained.html

[duhtroll]

School boards and school administrators DO have their own organizations and dues-paid associations.

And they more or less bargain collectively just like the teachers' unions do. They organize and present the same issues at the tables of each participating school district, just like the teachers' unions do.

But nice try and thanks for once again demonstrating that you have no clue what you are talking about.


Where ever it is legal for employees to ban together, form a union and collectively bargain with employers it should also be legal for employers to als ban together, form a union and collectively bargain with employees.

We live in a very mobile society, transportation is available to all to move seeking opportunities.

[tbone]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-february-28-2011/crisis-in-dairyland---angry-curds



(OK, I HAVE to respond ONE more time):

When I want news and analysis, I always tune into "The Comedy Channel" with Jon Stewart. Always "Fair and Balanced", and always in "Context".

Are you kidding me?

[tbone]

Oh, and since you all like to bring up dead presidents for your points, here's one:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-10-2011/moment-of-zen---ronald-reagan-supports-unions

I believe Reagan was the one who FIRED the air traffic controllers for striking, and their ineligibility to strike..........:beer:

So......your point is?

crickets chirping...................... .............................. .............................. .............................. .........

[Fosters]

I'm just going to ask all of you haters out there how many rich teachers you know.


Should take a look at your local state university for teachers making 6 figures. Or coaches making upwards of quarter million dollars per year. Also, should ask all of us haters how many teachers have benefits way better than ours, or pay less into their pension and health care than us.

I pay 100% into my retirement fund. And if I don't like what I'm getting paid, I'll find something to do, or another employer that pays more, I'm not gonna one day just leave my job and go bang drums around the capitol.

[LIGHTNIN1]

How much was the union wizard in Wisconsin getting, something like $450K plus all his benefits. I am in the Federal system and they were doing better than us. I have to pay into retirement and healthcare.

[dohc324ci]

Dutroll, why am I not surprised you would vehemently defend what you would benefit from./

Doesn't matter the tax payers are on the hook for as long as you get yours eh?

But really though I would like to hear a rational and logical argument for a pro public employee union stance? Explain in plain English why should I and the rest Of the tax payers support your cause?

[CBT]

I will stick to my "If unions are so great, the military would have them." line of reasoning. Can you imagine if, logistically, we could even make it to the front lines for a war if the military were unionized, then someone gets ready to charge and everyone around that person starts yelling "Hey, hey, hey! Slow down, buddy! You're going to make the rest of us look bad." I've actually heard that more than once here in the shipyard. These folks build billion dollar national assets, and look at me in disgust when I don't take one of thier flyers. I don't need someone else making decisions for me, or taking money from my paycheck and then making decisions for me. I can think and make decisions for myself, it's called adulthood. Unions had thier place in time. That time is gone. Between OSHA, the EPA, and personal injury lawyers on every corner, the American worker is very well represented if they feel they are being wronged. Instead of throwing billions of dollars at politicians, unions should invest the dues money so that paying members have an incredibly rediculous retirement package. That wouldn't bother me, I'm not the jealous type, if they invest and earn it, good for them, but don't strong arm local, state, and Federal Government and local businesses and corporations so 12 people can change a lightbulb and take all day to do it. "Oh, I can't, I only change fluorescent bulbs, we have to wait for the other guy." Give me a ****ing break. Getting better pay and benefits shouldn't mean slacking off. If the unions built pistols and rifles, they wouldn't work because you couldn't fire them. If people don't like what they make, or have no retirement plan, get an education, or serve a stint in the military, or both. I bought a policemen a Dr. Pepper the other night, he was behind me in line at the 7-11. He was stunned when I thanked him for his service, and we chatted outside for a few minutes about service, pay, and such. I told him I think fire fighters and cops are underpaid, and maybe teachers, too. But until a teacher responds to a shooting or a house fire, they are a distant 3rd. 2 days later, I stepped out of the same 7-11 and dropped my coffee, and went back in, made another one, and went up to the counter to pay. The gal said "Wow, you drank the other one already?!" I said no, I dropped it. She said "Well don't worry about it, just take it." I am a firm believer in what comes around goes around, and I think people in general are tired of union tactics, and are pushing back. That is just my observation. People should be paid and compensated on thier individual merits, not as a group. Seriously, do you want the bosses niece or nephew making the same amount as you and having the same pay, benefits, and retirement package as you if they are a scrub who doesn't do anything or know anything, but because they are in the same union as you, they get the same stuff? That would set my hair on fire.

[sailsmen]

82 percent of US schools may be labeled 'failing'
By CHRISTINE ARMARIO and DORIE TURNER, Associated Press Christine Armario And Dorie Turner, Associated Press
Wed Mar 9, 3:09 pm ET

.An estimated 82 percent of U.S. schools could be labeled as "failing" under the nation's No Child Left Behind Act this year, Education Secretary Arne Duncan said Wednesday.

The Department of Education estimates the number of schools not meeting targets will skyrocket from 37 to 82 percent in 2011 because states are toughening their standards to meet the requirements of the law. The schools will face sanctions ranging from offering tutoring to closing their doors.

"No Child Left Behind is broken and we need to fix it now," Duncan said in a statement. "This law has created a thousand ways for schools to fail and very few ways to help them succeed."

Duncan delivered the news in remarks to a House education and work force committee hearing, in urging lawmakers to rewrite the Bush-era act. The law was established in 2002 and many education officials and experts argue it is overdue for changes.

President Barack Obama has highlighted reforming the act as a priority for his administration, and both Democrats and Republicans have agreed that it needs to be changed — though disagreements remain on how.

The current law sets annual student achievement targets designed with the goal of having all students proficient in math and reading by 2014, a standard now viewed as wildly unrealistic.

Duncan said the law has done well in shining a light on achievement gaps among minority and low-income students, as well as those who are still learning English or have disabilities. But he said the law is loose on goals and narrow on how schools get there when it should be the opposite.

"We should get out of the business of labeling schools as failures and create a new law that is fair and flexible, and focused on the schools and students most at risk," Duncan said.

The Department of Education said its estimate was based on four years of data and the assuming all schools would improve at the same rate as the top quartile.

"Even under these assumptions, 82 percent of America's schools could be labeled `failing' and, over time, the required remedies for all of them are the same — which means we will really fail to serve the students in greatest need," Duncan said.

[sailsmen]

I want to thank the Professor for producing the animation in video #1. I was concerned about 82% failing schools due to the inability of students to learn math and reading.
But now I understand all of it. A Union is a business like any other business and only looks after it's own self interest.
The below video explains the symbiotic Teacher/Student relationship.
"The children chant: "Hey hey, ho ho, Scott Walker has got to go."
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/14/young_wisconsin_children_chant _against_gov_scott_walker.html ?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d7f12f a29f288bf,0

[sailsmen]

You people can't read for ****.

I'm going to bold a paragraph you posted. Read it this time.

FDR is talking about the ability to strike, not the process of bargaining prior to strike. It is even in the TITLE. See second bolded selection from the original letter.

So once again, you are taking things out of context.

As for the original blog post by an economics professor, there are so many logical fallacies and straw man arguments I'm not sure where to begin.

I'm just going to ask all of you haters out there how many rich teachers you know.

(sound of crickets)

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-february-28-2011/crisis-in-dairyland---angry-curds

Oh, and since you all like to bring up dead presidents for your points, here's one:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-10-2011/moment-of-zen---ronald-reagan-supports-unions

"I'm just going to ask all of you haters out there how many rich teachers you know." So if we majically pay all teachers $1,000,000 they also majically become excellent teachers and 82% of the schools that are failing will be able to teach math and reading?

I quote the entire letter in post #3 and in your post #10 you stated it was taken out of context? Context of what? Post #4 through #9 made no reference to the letter! We are then told we cannot read. Perhaps we were taught by a Union Teacher or perhaps you were taught by a Union Teacher?

We are not "haters" we are parents concerned about the education of our children and we are citizens concerned about the future of our country. The Public Education system is broken and is FAILING our Children and our Country. The biggest impediment to reform is the Teachers Union. Do a search on New Orleans Public School System before Katrina washed away the Teachers Union.

[GAMike]

I spent the past 2 years as a volunteer coach with my local highschool football team, and had the pleasure of working with coaches that were also teachers. Besides working with the team and helping kids, I was also afforded the opportunity to be on "the inside" at this school.

I saw/heard first hand the good and the bad of the educational system in my city/county.

There are many teachers that care, and work on their own time for the kids....
Many of these teachers don't participate in the "professional organizations" that exist in the Gwinnett County School System (a stepping stone away from a union).

In speaking with a few that I was fortunate to know outside of football, I came to find that they believe as some of us do..... These "organizations" do nothing for teachers who do their jobs at the highest level. They serve the teachers that "phone it in".

A byproduct of all these teachers that slack, is the cottage industry of companies like SMART Technologies and others who help students learn, in spite of teachers who cannot teach.

Their Message to the educational systems they sell too? ...If your teachers can't teach, what will you do? Replace them with another teacher who also may not be able to teach???? No...... Utilize our solutions, help your existing teacher by making his/her job easier, and it will be fun for the students too because we are computerizing what they need to learn.

Meanwhile these teachers who phone it in, look at this situation as having a new toy to play with. They don't see it as a failure on their part to infuse their students with knowledge. To make up for their shortcommings as a teacher... They see it as a in room perk. Yes, in some cases these tools can benefit, but they are more commonly employed because teachers fall short.

Meanwhile I see these same teachers in the parking lots getting into late model SUVs and mid level Infiniti/Lexus type cars with "Support Education" plates that id the driver as a teacher..... By the way, if you are ever driving in GA and see an Red Apple on a GA license plate, stay the heck away from that car..... They think the rules of the road are for others only. This is a very consistent observation..... 3 lane cuts, no directionals not maintaining pace with the other cars on the road, multitasking behind the wheel, while cutting people off.....Nothing but the arrogance of believing they are entitled.

Sorry for the rant.

[MERCMAN]

So it is OK for mods on this forum to post inflammatory threads?

Nice abuse of power and hypocritical maneuvering to each and every person on this forum whom you have censored.

This sucks, Dan. Thought you were better than that.


GEEZE!! I just posted the link because I found the animjation and the computer generated voices funny. Had I known this was going to get really blown out of proportion, I would have posted it in joke of the day.

People,, there are SO many things we have to be thankful for,, just look at Japan and feel thankful you are where you are!!. Lets just lighten up here and laugh a bit please.

[CBT]

I spent the past 2 years as a volunteer coach with my local highschool football team, and had the pleasure of working with coaches that were also teachers. Besides working with the team and helping kids, I was also afforded the opportunity to be on "the inside" at this school.

I saw/heard first hand the good and the bad of the educational system in my city/county.

There are many teachers that care, and work on their own time for the kids....
Many of these teachers don't participate in the "professional organizations" that exist in the Gwinnett County School System (a stepping stone away from a union).

In speaking with a few that I was fortunate to know outside of football, I came to find that they believe as some of us do..... These "organizations" do nothing for teachers who do their jobs at the highest level. They serve the teachers that "phone it in".

A byproduct of all these teachers that slack, is the cottage industry of companies like SMART Technologies and others who help students learn, in spite of teachers who cannot teach.

Their Message to the educational systems they sell too? ...If your teachers can't teach, what will you do? Replace them with another teacher who also may not be able to teach???? No...... Utilize our solutions, help your existing teacher by making his/her job easier, and it will be fun for the students too because we are computerizing what they need to learn.

Meanwhile these teachers who phone it in, look at this situation as having a new toy to play with. They don't see it as a failure on their part to infuse their students with knowledge. To make up for their shortcommings as a teacher... They see it as a in room perk. Yes, in some cases these tools can benefit, but they are more commonly employed because teachers fall short.

Meanwhile I see these same teachers in the parking lots getting into late model SUVs and mid level Infiniti/Lexus type cars with "Support Education" plates that id the driver as a teacher..... By the way, if you are ever driving in GA and see an Red Apple on a GA license plate, stay the heck away from that car..... They think the rules of the road are for others only. This is a very consistent observation..... 3 lane cuts, no directionals not maintaining pace with the other cars on the road, multitasking behind the wheel, while cutting people off.....Nothing but the arrogance of believing they are entitled.

Sorry for the rant.

Is the red apple like a teacher specialty plate or somethin'?

[SC Cheesehead]

GEEZE!! I just posted the link because I found the animjation and the computer generated voices funny. Had I known this was going to get really blown out of proportion, I would have posted it in joke of the day.

People,, there are SO many things we have to be thankful for,, just look at Japan and feel thankful you are where you are!!. Lets just lighten up here and laugh a bit please.

See what you stirred up, Dan? ;) -----> :D

Okay, that said...JOCULARITY! :rofl:

[GAMike]

Is the red apple like a teacher specialty plate or somethin'?

The plate has the Apple, and says "Support Education". Revenue from these plate sales are supposed to trickle into funding for state educational initiatives. I think the plate is available at the tag office to anyone registering a vehicle.

They remind me of the "Blue line bumperstickers/licence plates(not from tag offices) for the LEO community......

Unofficial designators of a specific fraternity of professionals. Yes some from outside the "fraternity" try to include themselves, but for the most part the Support education plates are not abused as much as the Blue line due to a lower percieved value? I don't know....

[LIGHTNIN1]

The plate has the Apple, and says "Support Education". Revenue from these plate sales are supposed to trickle into funding for state educational initiatives. I think the plate is available at the tag office to anyone registering a vehicle.

They remind me of the "Blue line bumperstickers/licence plates(not from tag offices) for the LEO community......

Unofficial designators of a specific fraternity of professionals. Yes some from outside the "fraternity" try to include themselves, but for the most part the Support education plates are not abused as much as the Blue line due to a lower percieved value? I don't know....

Sounds like a group with a SECRET handshake.

[MrBluGruv]

Two things bother me about the education system/unions:

1. I'd like to know how long people in charge can stay in charge.

2. I see the quality of education majors that I attend school with, and I frankly feel sorry for the future of children if this is the standard at which they are held. Hopefully my institution is just an anomaly when it comes to that though.



That being said, I have to laugh at the vid for nothing more than how much it glaringly over-generalizes people that support teachers unions (again, I hope that the personality and argument posed in the vid is just the anomaly....).

[duhtroll]

Because the issue has nothing to do with teachers striking, perhaps?

I mean, despite people posting the same quote from FDR out of context, the issue is not about the ability to strike.

The issue is not about striking, nor is it about budget. It is about collective bargaining, which the dead guy that most 'Pubs worship saying he supports.

If the Wisconsin issue was only about budget, it would have been solved weeks ago and there wouldn't have been protests.


I believe Reagan was the one who FIRED the air traffic controllers for striking, and their ineligibility to strike..........:beer:

So......your point is?

crickets chirping...................... .............................. .............................. .............................. .........

[duhtroll]

University professors are not public school teachers, but thanks for confusing the issue. They have nothing to do with this. In addition, those professors will be the first ones in line (along with public school teachers) to agree with you that college coaches make too much money for coaching a game.

OK, fine. Let's compare salary AND benefits in addition to qualifications. Hour for hour. I will put up my "lavish" salary and benefits against anyone here. Then I will put the number of hours worked in a year -- even in my so-called "9 month job" (which is also ********, BTW - I work 10 plus mandatory schooling in the summers even though I am paid for 193 days only).

Just to warn you, I don't get "lavish" benefits from my school because we use my wife's family insurance from her NON-union position since it is a better plan at a much better price.

So really, all I can compare with you is my salary after a Master's degree and 18 years of experience, plus an exemplary performance record.

My salary is published every year in the local paper. Wanna play the game where everyone posts what they make and compare it to mine? Think people on here will be honest?

Here's something for you haters to chew on. I earn EVERY dollar I make, and much, much more. The insinuation that I owe any of you anything is ludicrous. I also pay taxes.

The issue here is NOT that teachers are asking for more money or benefits -- it never was. FOX News wants you to think it is, but it simply is not true. All the teachers are protesting is the removal of collective bargaining rights which have been established for decades.

If this were about money or benefits, Scott Walker would not have removed all monetary items from the bill in order to get it passed.

I will ask again -- how many rich teachers do you know? Not professors, not college coaches. Public school teachers.

The reason people deflect the issue is because there aren't any to speak of (occasional embezzlers and lottery winners notwithstanding).


Should take a look at your local state university for teachers making 6 figures. Or coaches making upwards of quarter million dollars per year. Also, should ask all of us haters how many teachers have benefits way better than ours, or pay less into their pension and health care than us.

I pay 100% into my retirement fund. And if I don't like what I'm getting paid, I'll find something to do, or another employer that pays more, I'm not gonna one day just leave my job and go bang drums around the capitol.

[duhtroll]

This has nothing to do with salary or benefits. That's why. The problem occurred because the WI governor went *outside* the realm of salary and benefits to take away bargaining rights.

The FDR quote that was posted (not by me, BTW) shows you he most certainly WAS in favor of bargaining, just not striking.

The plain facts are that neither the teachers nor their unions are responsible for the budget problems at the state level. As much as you guys want to assign the blame there, there are no facts to support it.

How many times does it have to be shown that salary and benefits are not the problem? The WI teachers AGREED to the concessions Walker wanted.

That wasn't enough for him, hence the protests.


Dutroll, why am I not surprised you would vehemently defend what you would benefit from./

Doesn't matter the tax payers are on the hook for as long as you get yours eh?

But really though I would like to hear a rational and logical argument for a pro public employee union stance? Explain in plain English why should I and the rest Of the tax payers support your cause?

[duhtroll]

Good for you -- except that none of your rant below applies to teachers.

You're confusing private sector unions with public sector unions.

Again I ask - how many teachers do you see in big houses with nice cars and huge stock portfolios?

You guys are being told to hate and therefore you hate. Be an adult as you say and look up the facts, or just realize that teachers aren't as rich as those on TV would have you believe.



I will stick to my "If unions are so great, the military would have them." line of reasoning. Can you imagine if, logistically, we could even make it to the front lines for a war if the military were unionized, then someone gets ready to charge and everyone around that person starts yelling "Hey, hey, hey! Slow down, buddy! You're going to make the rest of us look bad." I've actually heard that more than once here in the shipyard. These folks build billion dollar national assets, and look at me in disgust when I don't take one of thier flyers. I don't need someone else making decisions for me, or taking money from my paycheck and then making decisions for me. I can think and make decisions for myself, it's called adulthood. Unions had thier place in time. That time is gone. Between OSHA, the EPA, and personal injury lawyers on every corner, the American worker is very well represented if they feel they are being wronged. Instead of throwing billions of dollars at politicians, unions should invest the dues money so that paying members have an incredibly rediculous retirement package. That wouldn't bother me, I'm not the jealous type, if they invest and earn it, good for them, but don't strong arm local, state, and Federal Government and local businesses and corporations so 12 people can change a lightbulb and take all day to do it. "Oh, I can't, I only change fluorescent bulbs, we have to wait for the other guy." Give me a ****ing break. Getting better pay and benefits shouldn't mean slacking off. If the unions built pistols and rifles, they wouldn't work because you couldn't fire them. If people don't like what they make, or have no retirement plan, get an education, or serve a stint in the military, or both. I bought a policemen a Dr. Pepper the other night, he was behind me in line at the 7-11. He was stunned when I thanked him for his service, and we chatted outside for a few minutes about service, pay, and such. I told him I think fire fighters and cops are underpaid, and maybe teachers, too. But until a teacher responds to a shooting or a house fire, they are a distant 3rd. 2 days later, I stepped out of the same 7-11 and dropped my coffee, and went back in, made another one, and went up to the counter to pay. The gal said "Wow, you drank the other one already?!" I said no, I dropped it. She said "Well don't worry about it, just take it." I am a firm believer in what comes around goes around, and I think people in general are tired of union tactics, and are pushing back. That is just my observation. People should be paid and compensated on thier individual merits, not as a group. Seriously, do you want the bosses niece or nephew making the same amount as you and having the same pay, benefits, and retirement package as you if they are a scrub who doesn't do anything or know anything, but because they are in the same union as you, they get the same stuff? That would set my hair on fire.

[guspech750]

I agree that the education system needs to be overhauled. But let's not foreget the most important education lesson. Parenting. Honestly. Most kids and their parents are ignorant. The parents think it's the teachers job to take care of their kids along with trying to teach them. A lot of parents just throw up their arms and give up or are so buried into their jobs they have no time for their kids. It all starts with the parents. My wife and I work very hard with our daughter and her homework. Her grades and test score have gone from the C to B range to all A's. It starts with the parents to set an example. Then I believe test scores and such would rise dramatically. Teachers are not babysitters!!

Sent from my iPhone
Go White Sox!!!

[duhtroll]

It is statistically impossible to have every single student proficient in math and reading.

Ever hear of special ed? Those kids count, too. Have one special ed. kid in your school? It will be labeled as failing, eventually.

Or do you think every child in this country is capable of that level? Let's just tell Goodwill they don't need to offer their employment programs anymore because those kids are just as capable as any other and should be held to the same standards.

And since students show up to support their teachers, you seem to believe they are being forced to? Or maybe the union is brainwashing them?

Wow. Just, wow.


I want to thank the Professor for producing the animation in video #1. I was concerned about 82% failing schools due to the inability of students to learn math and reading.
But now I understand all of it. A Union is a business like any other business and only looks after it's own self interest.
The below video explains the symbiotic Teacher/Student relationship.
"The children chant: "Hey hey, ho ho, Scott Walker has got to go."
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/14/young_wisconsin_children_chant _against_gov_scott_walker.html ?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d7f12f a29f288bf,0

[duhtroll]

The quote of FDR saying "collective bargaining cannot be applied to public sector unions" (or similar) is quoted out of context, yes.

He is talking about strikes. Not bargaining.

And for what-- the 4th or 5th time on this board? I will say that the issue has nothing to do with money. I have not asked for more, and neither have the teachers in WI. They actually agreed to LESS money this year, as my school did last year.

If you want to discuss teachers' unions, point by point, in every way they supposedly make school reforms impossible, let's do it.

But YOU have to be the one doing the discussing. Stop posting stuff from other people.

Here are a few tidbits to get you started.

Teachers' unions cannot prevent someone from being fired for just cause.

Teachers' unions do not keep teachers from being evaluated.

Teachers' unions do not make money for their members at the expense of non-members, nor do they drive up operating costs.

Start with those. Refute them, if you can. And I don't mean by finding some guy with a blog (some guy who has nothing to do with public education).


"I'm just going to ask all of you haters out there how many rich teachers you know." So if we majically pay all teachers $1,000,000 they also majically become excellent teachers and 82% of the schools that are failing will be able to teach math and reading?

I quote the entire letter in post #3 and in your post #10 you stated it was taken out of context? Context of what? Post #4 through #9 made no reference to the letter! We are then told we cannot read. Perhaps we were taught by a Union Teacher or perhaps you were taught by a Union Teacher?

We are not "haters" we are parents concerned about the education of our children and we are citizens concerned about the future of our country. The Public Education system is broken and is FAILING our Children and our Country. The biggest impediment to reform is the Teachers Union. Do a search on New Orleans Public School System before Katrina washed away the Teachers Union.

[duhtroll]

How surprising that non-union teachers would be opposed to the union.

Thanks for opening my eyes, there... :P

Did you ask what the spouses of the teachers driving the Infiniti/Lexus do for a living?

We have a few here driving really nice cars, too. One is the husband of the only optometrist in town. One the wife of a chiropractor, etc..

What is your point? I own and drive a Marauder, and I bought it new. But my wife and I are dual income with one child. The Marauder is the only car I have ever bought new.

Yeah, it is Trilogized too. I waited 6 years to be able to afford that. But I suppose none of the decisions that went into that financial plan matter, only that I drive a Marauder and therefore must be overpaid, right?


I spent the past 2 years as a volunteer coach with my local highschool football team, and had the pleasure of working with coaches that were also teachers. Besides working with the team and helping kids, I was also afforded the opportunity to be on "the inside" at this school.

I saw/heard first hand the good and the bad of the educational system in my city/county.

There are many teachers that care, and work on their own time for the kids....
Many of these teachers don't participate in the "professional organizations" that exist in the Gwinnett County School System (a stepping stone away from a union).

In speaking with a few that I was fortunate to know outside of football, I came to find that they believe as some of us do..... These "organizations" do nothing for teachers who do their jobs at the highest level. They serve the teachers that "phone it in".

A byproduct of all these teachers that slack, is the cottage industry of companies like SMART Technologies and others who help students learn, in spite of teachers who cannot teach.

Their Message to the educational systems they sell too? ...If your teachers can't teach, what will you do? Replace them with another teacher who also may not be able to teach???? No...... Utilize our solutions, help your existing teacher by making his/her job easier, and it will be fun for the students too because we are computerizing what they need to learn.

Meanwhile these teachers who phone it in, look at this situation as having a new toy to play with. They don't see it as a failure on their part to infuse their students with knowledge. To make up for their shortcommings as a teacher... They see it as a in room perk. Yes, in some cases these tools can benefit, but they are more commonly employed because teachers fall short.

Meanwhile I see these same teachers in the parking lots getting into late model SUVs and mid level Infiniti/Lexus type cars with "Support Education" plates that id the driver as a teacher..... By the way, if you are ever driving in GA and see an Red Apple on a GA license plate, stay the heck away from that car..... They think the rules of the road are for others only. This is a very consistent observation..... 3 lane cuts, no directionals not maintaining pace with the other cars on the road, multitasking behind the wheel, while cutting people off.....Nothing but the arrogance of believing they are entitled.

Sorry for the rant.

[duhtroll]

I will take babysitting wages.

$4 per kid per hour. I'll even teach them while I babysit.

25 kids per hour x 6 hours of class time per day. I won't even count the lunch and other times I am supervising them. I'll throw that in for free.

25 kids x $4 per hour is $100 per hour.

I'll sign that and I will even provide my own health insurance.


I agree that the education system needs to be overhauled. But let's not foreget the most important education lesson. Parenting. Honestly. Most kids and their parents are ignorant. The parents think it's the teachers job to take care of their kids along with trying to teach them. A lot of parents just throw up their arms and give up or are so buried into their jobs they have no time for their kids. It all starts with the parents. My wife and I work very hard with our daughter and her homework. Her grades and test score have gone from the C to B range to all A's. It starts with the parents to set an example. Then I believe test scores and such would rise dramatically. Teachers are not babysitters!!

Sent from my iPhone
Go White Sox!!!

[duhtroll]

Forgive me for not giving the benefit of the doubt on this one. I probably should have, but you can understand my personal investment in it.

Blogs like that perpetuate the wanton ignorance that is so common on this topic.

People on TV actually have lots of people in this country (although still a distinct minority) believing that teaching is a lucrative career.

Really?


GEEZE!! I just posted the link because I found the animjation and the computer generated voices funny. Had I known this was going to get really blown out of proportion, I would have posted it in joke of the day.

People,, there are SO many things we have to be thankful for,, just look at Japan and feel thankful you are where you are!!. Lets just lighten up here and laugh a bit please.

[PonyUP]

So what happens when they can't agree on a collective bargaining agreement? Strike/or Lockout...See the NFL

You can't separate collective bargaining from a unions right to strike.

And Troll, I am certainly not saying you don't work hard, and you don't get paid for the "summer months"

But teachers get twice as many holidays as those in the private sector. I know I don't get

Presidents Day
Martin Luther King Day
Casmir Polaski day (local top Chicago and this is the first year it wasn't a holiday)
Columbus Day
Institute Days
Spring Break
Winter Break

Maybe teachers pay is lower because of the large amounts of time off work. Now while you are probably a dedicated teacher, and use that time off during the year to work on lesson plans, there are many more teachers who don't do jack during that time.

And by the way, there are communities where teachers are in the upper tax brackets, Naperville IL for one where some high school teachers are making over $100K a year, and don't do jack during their time off.

granted this certainly isn't the norm. But I use it to illustrate a point that you may even stand behind. Community can and will influence a teachers pay scale. In an upper scale community such as Naperville where they wouldn't stand for a subpar school system, better teachers are needed and are attracted by pay.

This certainly won't happen in poor neighborhoods where there isn't as much focus on education. Which highlights the real problem (Though I don't think unions help the matter) The community and parents have to be involved in education. If left to just the teachers, it will fail. Kids rebel, and if the teachers message is not backed up by the community or the parents, the system fails.

Want to get back to having a top educational system? Get involved, work with kids on their homework, incorporate the lessons they learn at school to their lives. It can't all be put on the teachers soldiers, at the end of the day they have no stakes in your kids future, so why should they care?

The fact that a number of teachers do care and if that is mixed with parents and a community that cares as well, that childs future will shine bright.

[MrBluGruv]

I will take babysitting wages.

$4 per kid per hour. I'll even teach them while I babysit.

25 kids per hour x 6 hours of class time per day. I won't even count the lunch and other times I am supervising them. I'll throw that in for free.

25 kids x $4 per hour is $100 per hour.

I'll sign that and I will even provide my own health insurance.

Maybe that's what all the six-figure salary teachers are doing. :P

[duhtroll]

No, see you're jumping to conclusions again.

We don't have the right to strike. Never have since the inception of collective bargaining. "We" (before my time) gave up the right to strike for the right to bargain the contracts.

Another little history lesson for y'all.

We don't get MLK Day or Presidents' Day or Polaski Day.

We get:

Christmas
Thanksgiving
Labor Day
Memorial Day
New Year's Day

listed in our contract. I should add that it is the school board, not the union, that sets the school calendar. Our school board is nice enough to ask us for input on some days, which we really like.

And the argument that some bad teachers exist is not a real argument. There are bad employees everywhere, in every sector of society, so pointing at some bad teachers proves nothing. There are bad Presidents of the US, too. You'd think that we would at least be able to get that one right.

Here's one you will hate. I think a teacher with over 20+ years of experience and a Master's degree and a good evaluation record SHOULD be making $100K a year.

Anyone who thinks teaching is easy has not done it for a single day.


So what happens when they can't agree on a collective bargaining agreement? Strike/or Lockout...See the NFL

You can't separate collective bargaining from a unions right to strike.

And Troll, I am certainly not saying you don't work hard, and you don't get paid for the "summer months"

But teachers get twice as many holidays as those in the private sector. I know I don't get

Presidents Day
Martin Luther King Day
Casmir Polaski day (local top Chicago and this is the first year it wasn't a holiday)
Columbus Day
Institute Days
Spring Break
Winter Break

Maybe teachers pay is lower because of the large amounts of time off work. Now while you are probably a dedicated teacher, and use that time off during the year to work on lesson plans, there are many more teachers who don't do jack during that time.

And by the way, there are communities where teachers are in the upper tax brackets, Naperville IL for one where some high school teachers are making over $100K a year, and don't do jack during their time off.

granted this certainly isn't the norm. But I use it to illustrate a point that you may even stand behind. Community can and will influence a teachers pay scale. In an upper scale community such as Naperville where they wouldn't stand for a subpar school system, better teachers are needed and are attracted by pay.

This certainly won't happen in poor neighborhoods where there isn't as much focus on education. Which highlights the real problem (Though I don't think unions help the matter) The community and parents have to be involved in education. If left to just the teachers, it will fail. Kids rebel, and if the teachers message is not backed up by the community or the parents, the system fails.

Want to get back to having a top educational system? Get involved, work with kids on their homework, incorporate the lessons they learn at school to their lives. It can't all be put on the teachers soldiers, at the end of the day they have no stakes in your kids future, so why should they care?

The fact that a number of teachers do care and if that is mixed with parents and a community that cares as well, that childs future will shine bright.

[Fosters]

University professors are not public school teachers, but thanks for confusing the issue. They have nothing to do with this. In addition, those professors will be the first ones in line (along with public school teachers) to agree with you that college coaches make too much money for coaching a game.

OK, fine. Let's compare salary AND benefits in addition to qualifications. Hour for hour. I will put up my "lavish" salary and benefits against anyone here. Then I will put the number of hours worked in a year -- even in my so-called "9 month job" (which is also ********, BTW - I work 10 plus mandatory schooling in the summers even though I am paid for 193 days only).

Just to warn you, I don't get "lavish" benefits from my school because we use my wife's family insurance from her NON-union position since it is a better plan at a much better price.

So really, all I can compare with you is my salary after a Master's degree and 18 years of experience, plus an exemplary performance record.

My salary is published every year in the local paper. Wanna play the game where everyone posts what they make and compare it to mine? Think people on here will be honest?

Here's something for you haters to chew on. I earn EVERY dollar I make, and much, much more. The insinuation that I owe any of you anything is ludicrous. I also pay taxes.

The issue here is NOT that teachers are asking for more money or benefits -- it never was. FOX News wants you to think it is, but it simply is not true. All the teachers are protesting is the removal of collective bargaining rights which have been established for decades.

If this were about money or benefits, Scott Walker would not have removed all monetary items from the bill in order to get it passed.

I will ask again -- how many rich teachers do you know? Not professors, not college coaches. Public school teachers.

The reason people deflect the issue is because there aren't any to speak of (occasional embezzlers and lottery winners notwithstanding).

If your life is so horrible, what exactly is it that's stopping you from getting another job? What's stopping you from becoming one of those overpaid university professors?

There's a low end in every profession. You want to be in that low end, that's YOUR choice. Don't demand CEO wages because you want to have the responsibilities of a sandwich delivery monkey.

And don't get me started on your exemplary performance record. Every teacher you talk to has an exemplary record, but good lord, the spelling and grammar skills of our elementary/high school/college graduates sure are in the toilet. Oh wait, that is the parents' fault, I forgot.

I don't know any rich teachers. But I know many with much better benefits than mine. But you know what? I don't know many rich nannies, any rich babysitters or any rich stay at home moms either. Again, you don't like what you're getting paid, vote with your feet. Do something else. Go become one of those overpaid professors. You'll find out it takes a lot more work to get to the top. It's nice that you think you're worth so much more, but the results of you and your colleague's work aren't matching up with those aspirations.

I have 10 days of vacation this year. Last year I was contracting; had no vacation days. Find me a teacher with 10 days of vacation or less.

[PonyUP]

No, see you're jumping to conclusions again.

We don't have the right to strike. Never have since the inception of collective bargaining. "We" (before my time) gave up the right to strike for the right to bargain the contracts.

Another little history lesson for y'all.

We don't get MLK Day or Presidents' Day or Polaski Day.

We get:

Christmas
Thanksgiving
Labor Day
Memorial Day
New Year's Day

listed in our contract. I should add that it is the school board, not the union, that sets the school calendar. Our school board is nice enough to ask us for input on some days, which we really like.

And the argument that some bad teachers exist is not a real argument. There are bad employees everywhere, in every sector of society, so pointing at some bad teachers proves nothing. There are bad Presidents of the US, too. You'd think that we would at least be able to get that one right.

Here's one you will hate. I think a teacher with over 20+ years of experience and a Master's degree and a good evaluation record SHOULD be making $100K a year.

Anyone who thinks teaching is easy has not done it for a single day.

Maybe your teachers union doesn't ahve a right to strike, but teachers unions do. District 203 in Naperville went on strike in September of 91, delaying the start of the school year.

Never said a good teacher doesn't deserve $100K a year, they do in Naperville and I never said they shouldn't

Never said teaching was easy, in fact I think I laid out a rpetty good argument about how difficult it is by saying teachers need the aid of the parents and the community.

Ofcourse there are bad employees in every business, and guess what? Those employees don't have collective bargainig, don't have tenure, don't have contracts and can be terminated at anytime for cause. Not the same situation with teachers.

My point was to illustrate that a large number of teachers take all that time off, and don't do a damn thing with it, then out of the other side of their mouth they complain about pay. Well if you are only going to work 193 days a year, then maybe you shouldn't be paid more.

Duhtroll, you are obviously much more passionate a teacher than many I have seen, and are a dedicated professional to the industry. But as with every industry, you are only as good as your weakest link.

So I guess my question is, what do you think should be done with the lazy teachers that only work half the year? Should they get paid $100K? How do we get them to get the same passion that you illustrate? If they did, maybe there wouldn't be such a negative attitude towards teachers unions and unions in general.

[LIGHTNIN1]

Oh the so precious COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RIGHTS, which are not a right but a way for one political party to buy votes. Sounds like the community organizers trying to blackmail the local banks into giving them money for existing.

[GAMike]

How surprising that non-union teachers would be opposed to the union.

Thanks for opening my eyes, there... :P

Did you ask what the spouses of the teachers driving the Infiniti/Lexus do for a living?

We have a few here driving really nice cars, too. One is the husband of the only optometrist in town. One the wife of a chiropractor, etc..

What is your point? I own and drive a Marauder, and I bought it new. But my wife and I are dual income with one child. The Marauder is the only car I have ever bought new.

Yeah, it is Trilogized too. I waited 6 years to be able to afford that. But I suppose none of the decisions that went into that financial plan matter, only that I drive a Marauder and therefore must be overpaid, right?

The teachers I speak of for the most part, are a couple years (5-6 at most) out of school. Most are single here. Our school system is not that old. I think my local highschool was built in the mid 80's.

Most have 2nd jobs during the summer as well.

My point? in my part of the country, I see teachers more interested in working the system, then investing in their profession. Because of the phoning it in that I see, my taxes go higher each year as school systems purchase equipment to compensate for teachers who don't perform as expected. Do they get fired? No........ Well recently a few have, but for the most part they get shuffled to other schools (as longs as they have a network of educator friends that will hold the door open for them).

Not pointing the finger at you. I know you take your profession seriously. But I can tell, that you would be horrified if you came to Gwinnett County, GA to witness 1st hand how teachers perform their duties, and their priorities during their working day. I have seen it and raised these questions with the administration.

Again this is my school system. Not painting with a brush here. Sorry if the original post came off that way.

[Fosters]

Oh the so precious COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RIGHTS, which are not a right but a way for one political party to buy votes. Sounds like the community organizers trying to blackmail the local banks into giving them money for existing.

:toast:

This. They use the "rights" spiel when it comes to collective bargaining and use the freedom of association argument to justify it. The problem is, they have every right in the world to unionize. They can do whatever they want as a union as long as it doesn't break the law, and doesn't infringe on another individual's rights. Unions are legal; collective bargaining rights, especially against the tax payers, are not. Organized crime is not legal, nor protected by the freedom of association.

[duhtroll]

Wait a sec --

Where did I ever complain that my life is bad? I love where I am and wouldn't change it.

What I am saying is there are people with a whole lot more than I will ever have taking shots at me and my profession, and I have had it with them. I refuse to be told that I am rich, or overpaid, or have these benefits that are so much better than the private sector (when the comparison being made is to someone working at Wally world). I refuse to let people here or anywhere else bash my profession for things that are simply not true. I care about what I do.

Know what? I am worth more as a professional than someone working the register at Wal-Mart. I earned it and won't apologize for it. Strange how some teachers make less than those working the register, though.

I just posted that I have less than 10 vacation days. I have 5. Or are you counting all the days I am unpaid as vacation? :confused:

And forgive the conceit, but my students have outscored their entire conference each year in performance since 1999. This year we might place second or third. I am a little worried. But see, just because I do a good job does not mean I am going in and demanding more money.

I am saying I am worth the investment being made by our taxpayers, and then some. Big difference.

Is there a problem with my spelling and/or grammar? I see more problems like that from the critics than the defenders.

Anyone who can't spell or construct a sentence has only their own self to blame. It is a skill and they did not master it. Or if someone is a fat ass, do you blame their doctor? If they get a cavity, do you blame their dentist?

I guess your argument of personal responsibility only applies to someone's career and not their education, then? If I want a higher paying job it is my fault for not going out and getting it, but if someone can't spell then it is their teacher's fault, not their own laziness?

Clarify that for me.

If Johnny can't read, then you're damn right it is his parents' fault. My daughter read before she hit Kindergarten and we did daycare instead of preschool. WE taught her to read. Imagine!


If your life is so horrible, what exactly is it that's stopping you from getting another job? What's stopping you from becoming one of those overpaid university professors?

There's a low end in every profession. You want to be in that low end, that's YOUR choice. Don't demand CEO wages because you want to have the responsibilities of a sandwich delivery monkey.

And don't get me started on your exemplary performance record. Every teacher you talk to has an exemplary record, but good lord, the spelling and grammar skills of our elementary/high school/college graduates sure are in the toilet. Oh wait, that is the parents' fault, I forgot.

I don't know any rich teachers. But I know many with much better benefits than mine. But you know what? I don't know many rich nannies, any rich babysitters or any rich stay at home moms either. Again, you don't like what you're getting paid, vote with your feet. Do something else. Go become one of those overpaid professors. You'll find out it takes a lot more work to get to the top. It's nice that you think you're worth so much more, but the results of you and your colleague's work aren't matching up with those aspirations.

I have 10 days of vacation this year. Last year I was contracting; had no vacation days. Find me a teacher with 10 days of vacation or less.

[duhtroll]

Ofcourse there are bad employees in every business, and guess what? Those employees don't have collective bargainig, don't have tenure, don't have contracts and can be terminated at anytime for cause. Not the same situation with teachers.

Due process does not eliminate a teacher from being fired, for the 3rd time. That is an ignorant misconception. Tenure is due process, nothing more.


My point was to illustrate that a large number of teachers take all that time off, and don't do a damn thing with it, then out of the other side of their mouth they complain about pay. Well if you are only going to work 193 days a year, then maybe you shouldn't be paid more.

See, you don't KNOW that "a large number of teachers" do *anything.* You have anecdotal evidence which you are applying to the group as a whole.

Please stop doing that. You're wrong.



So I guess my question is, what do you think should be done with the lazy teachers that only work half the year? Should they get paid $100K? How do we get them to get the same passion that you illustrate? If they did, maybe there wouldn't be such a negative attitude towards teachers unions and unions in general.

If they are not doing their jobs, they should be fired. With just cause, no union can prevent them from being fired.

I have seen teachers fired who were union members. The union made sure due process was followed. That's it, because they knew the teacher deserved it. But if they are lax on the process, then the next person suffers for no reason.

[duhtroll]

OK, do you have evidence of this or are you just parroting FOX News?

Yeah, most unions support democrats. Most banks and corporations support Republicans.

It isn't rocket surgery to figure out why.

And for the record, at least here unions are forbidden by law from using dues for political donations. Donations by individuals to political candidates are voluntary, as is membership. No one is forced to join and no one loses an job benefits from not joining.


Oh the so precious COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RIGHTS, which are not a right but a way for one political party to buy votes. Sounds like the community organizers trying to blackmail the local banks into giving them money for existing.

[duhtroll]

Thanks for clarifying - one of my general points is that anecdotal evidence of a few individuals does not a profession make and you seem to be validating that.

It'd be like me saying the guy at Wells Fargo was caught having sex with an underage girl and therefore bankers must be pedophiles.

That is in essence what is happening to teachers right now.


The teachers I speak of for the most part, are a couple years (5-6 at most) out of school. Most are single here. Our school system is not that old. I think my local highschool was built in the mid 80's.

Most have 2nd jobs during the summer as well.

My point? in my part of the country, I see teachers more interested in working the system, then investing in their profession. Because of the phoning it in that I see, my taxes go higher each year as school systems purchase equipment to compensate for teachers who don't perform as expected. Do they get fired? No........ Well recently a few have, but for the most part they get shuffled to other schools (as longs as they have a network of educator friends that will hold the door open for them).

Not pointing the finger at you. I know you take your profession seriously. But I can tell, that you would be horrified if you came to Gwinnett County, GA to witness 1st hand how teachers perform their duties, and their priorities during their working day. I have seen it and raised these questions with the administration.

Again this is my school system. Not painting with a brush here. Sorry if the original post came off that way.

[LIGHTNIN1]

:toast:

This. They use the "rights" spiel when it comes to collective bargaining and use the freedom of association argument to justify it. The problem is, they have every right in the world to unionize. They can do whatever they want as a union as long as it doesn't break the law, and doesn't infringe on another individual's rights. Unions are legal; collective bargaining rights, especially against the tax payers, are not. Organized crime is not legal, nor protected by the freedom of association.

Just reading the conditions of being in the union , you know that you are about to be in an unsavory organization and something is not right with this picture. We are right to work at my employer, you are not forced to be a member. The part where the employer is forced to remove union dues from your check before you get it is wrong and andpoints to a mob mentality. The union can't trust me to send it to them they are saying. Then when I want to get out of the union I only have a 10 day window including holidays per year to get out by mail. If something happens to that piece of mail, say it is late by one day I have to wait one year to try again. They have to strong arm people to keep them in.

[Fosters]

Wait a sec --

Where did I ever complain that my life is bad? I love where I am and wouldn't change it.

Well, you have to change it. The public sector, rich or poor, has taken a huge hit, you have to take a hit too.



What I am saying is there are people with a whole lot more than I will ever have taking shots at me and my profession, and I have had it with them. I refuse to be told that I am rich, or overpaid, or have these benefits that are so much better than the private sector (when the comparison being made is to someone working at Wally world). I refuse to let people here or anywhere else bash my profession for things that are simply not true. I care about what I do.

Know what? I am worth more as a professional than someone working the register at Wal-Mart. I earned it and won't apologize for it. Strange how some teachers make less than those working the register, though.


There you go, another upgrade path for your career then. If you don't like your benefits and/or pay, what the state and taxpayers are willing and able to pay you, you can work a Wal-Mart register.



I just posted that I have less than 10 vacation days. I have 5. Or are you counting all the days I am unpaid as vacation? :confused:


I somehow doubt that. You mean in the two months of summer, your paychecks stop coming? Wish my pay was for a whole 193 days a year...



And forgive the conceit, but my students have outscored their entire conference each year in performance since 1999. This year we might place second or third. I am a little worried. But see, just because I do a good job does not mean I am going in and demanding more money.

I am saying I am worth the investment being made by our taxpayers, and then some. Big difference.

Is there a problem with my spelling and/or grammar? I see more problems like that from the critics than the defenders.

Anyone who can't spell or construct a sentence has only their own self to blame. It is a skill and they did not master it. Or if someone is a fat ass, do you blame their doctor? If they get a cavity, do you blame their dentist?


No, if a kid is fat, I will blame the parents that taught him how/what to eat. If a kid doesn't know the difference between there/their/they're, I am gonna blame the teacher.



I guess your argument of personal responsibility only applies to someone's career and not their education, then? If I want a higher paying job it is my fault for not going out and getting it, but if someone can't spell then it is their teacher's fault, not their own laziness?


Well, I guess if teachers aren't responsible for students reading and math skills, then what are you responsible for? Do you have ANY responsibility? Or are you just asking for more pay for no responsibility?



Clarify that for me.

If Johnny can't read, then you're damn right it is his parents' fault. My daughter read before she hit Kindergarten and we did daycare instead of preschool. WE taught her to read. Imagine!

That's awesome, did you teach her math, history, economics and everything else too? If so, awesome on your part. I guess we all need to become teachers in every subject and be able to teach our kids up until college level, because teachers don't have any responsibility anymore and cannot be relied on to teach our kids how to read or write.

In conclusion, you don't want to accept responsibility for any result of your work, you want credit for your students success, but their failure is their parents fault, you somehow work 193 days per year but only have 5 days of vacation, and if you're asked to take a benefit cut because the tax payers cannot afford it anymore, it's your right.

That video in the first post pretty much nailed it.

[Fosters]

OK, do you have evidence of this or are you just parroting FOX News?

Yeah, most unions support democrats. Most banks and corporations support Republicans.

It isn't rocket surgery to figure out why.

And for the record, at least here unions are forbidden by law from using dues for political donations. Donations by individuals to political candidates are voluntary, as is membership. No one is forced to join and no one loses an job benefits from not joining.

The difference is, I have a choice in taking my business to a certain bank or corporation. What choice do I have with public sector? Not pay my taxes?

[LIGHTNIN1]

OK, do you have evidence of this or are you just parroting FOX News?

Yeah, most unions support democrats. Most banks and corporations support Republicans.

It isn't rocket surgery to figure out why.

And for the record, at least here unions are forbidden by law from using dues for political donations. Donations by individuals to political candidates are voluntary, as is membership. No one is forced to join and no one loses an job benefits from not joining.

Well guess I will never be a member of a union again as I am not going to be a member of an organization that blindly support political candidates no matter what they stand for or what they might have done. I guess if Charlie Manson runs for President as a Democrat the unions will support him. I have been a member of two unions and neither one ever supported anyone that did not have a D in front of their name. SHEEPLE.

[dohc324ci]

OK, do you have evidence of this or are you just parroting FOX News?

Yeah, most unions support democrats. Most banks and corporations support Republicans.

It isn't rocket surgery to figure out why.

And for the record, at least here unions are forbidden by law from using dues for political donations. Donations by individuals to political candidates are voluntary, as is membership. No one is forced to join and no one loses an job benefits from not joining.

Stop it man. You sound like a sniveling little....the ole Fox news argument is exactly what you are spewing.

Give us a good reason why we need to "invest in your retirement benefits" as it stands now? Without regard to the current fiscal problems the Cities, Counties and States are dealing with? The current system needs overhaul and re-structuring so public employees still get their benefits but going forward a more responsible system where the individual contributes more into their own retirement than existings...but please enlighten us with specifics?

Example:
I know the San Jose Fire Chief makes $350K annually but then also received $120k in overtime pay which amounts to $470k. Then that salary will be used to his benefit when he retires. Why because his highest three years will be used to calculate his benefit package he receives? Is this fair arrangement for the tax payers? So for the duration of his retirement the tax payers are on the hook then not to mention the new fire chief? Then he retires guess what the city is still on the hook for 3 salaries with un-realistic promises? This has happens already in Vallejo California. They cannot afford the outlays from these un-funded liabilities (generous retirement packages). They laid off numerous fire fighters and police because the system as it stands cannot support that arrangement.

I have friends that work for the police department that put in 70-80 hours and have base salary of say 80K they make an additional 60-70k in OT. 160-180k isnt unrealistic. Multiply this by "ALL" public sector workers then you see the dilemma. I say sure lets give benefits but there comes a point where that sort of system cannot be sustainable IMO.

[Hotrauder]

I am very late to this discussion. I have been learning botany while mowing my lawn. Bottom line, the county is circling the drain and a great many of the very wonderful things :rolleyes:,for which we have spent borrowed money for years, we can no longer justify. If more money, Federal control, smaller class sizes, tenure and unions could solve our failing educational system we would have no reason for this discussion. Sadly, we are no closer to solutions. I read a lot of self serving breast beating but no new ideas that offer any promise of improvement using the current model. It is way beyond time for the Feds, unions and teachers to get out of the way of reform. Just my uninformed 2 cents. Dennis

[duhtroll]

Did you read that we have taken pay cuts the last two years? Did you read that the WI teachers' union agreed to the cuts the Governor wanted?

Guess not.

It is nice to know that your views include teachers being on the same educational value as a Wal-Mart cashier though. That pretty much colors everything you say.

And yes, my paychecks cover the 193 days that I work, nothing more and I am not paid for more than 5 days off -- the aforementioned federal holidays.

You simply saying "nuh-uh" doesn't mean you're right. I am sorry you cannot accept the truth.

Or are you referring to the ability we have to divide our pay over 12 months instead of 10? Do you think by doing that we get paid more than for the 193 days in our contract?

And for the record, every teacher in our district puts in far more than the 193 days. We are only paid for the 193, regardless. But since you probably don't believe that either, I must be lying?

And if a kid can't spell, you blame their teacher? Really?

Are you aware there are kids out there that are going to be willfully stupid regardless of what they are taught? You know, like those who insist that I have 10 or more vacation days despite being told otherwise?

I would bet that MOST teachers have less than 10 vacation days. Time off as *unpaid* does not count as vacation, despite you making it sound like we are on yachts in the Caribbean. :rolleyes:

I am really disgusted by the idea you present that anyone can force a child to do anything. I have good students and I am a good teacher. Therefore we succeed. But if a student does not master a certain skill, they can only blame themselves. It is not as if the skill was not presented properly.

I don't know why you can't understand that. But I guess that was your teachers' fault, not yours.

And yes, I challenge each and every one of you out there who are unsatisfied with public education. Send your kids to private school or home school them.

But if you do that then you might have to admit that there are other factors in a child's education than just blaming teachers for everything, and we can't have that... :rolleyes:


Well, you have to change it. The public sector, rich or poor, has taken a huge hit, you have to take a hit too.



There you go, another upgrade path for your career then. If you don't like your benefits and/or pay, what the state and taxpayers are willing and able to pay you, you can work a Wal-Mart register.



I somehow doubt that. You mean in the two months of summer, your paychecks stop coming? Wish my pay was for a whole 193 days a year...



No, if a kid is fat, I will blame the parents that taught him how/what to eat. If a kid doesn't know the difference between there/their/they're, I am gonna blame the teacher.



Well, I guess if teachers aren't responsible for students reading and math skills, then what are you responsible for? Do you have ANY responsibility? Or are you just asking for more pay for no responsibility?



That's awesome, did you teach her math, history, economics and everything else too? If so, awesome on your part. I guess we all need to become teachers in every subject and be able to teach our kids up until college level, because teachers don't have any responsibility anymore and cannot be relied on to teach our kids how to read or write.

In conclusion, you don't want to accept responsibility for any result of your work, you want credit for your students success, but their failure is their parents fault, you somehow work 193 days per year but only have 5 days of vacation, and if you're asked to take a benefit cut because the tax payers cannot afford it anymore, it's your right.

That video in the first post pretty much nailed it.

[duhtroll]

Home school your kids. you are obviously the most qualified.


The difference is, I have a choice in taking my business to a certain bank or corporation. What choice do I have with public sector? Not pay my taxes?

[duhtroll]

Would you support someone who has views the opposite of yours?

And you blame people for supporting those who support them in turn?

Really?


Well guess I will never be a member of a union again as I am not going to be a member of an organization that blindly support political candidates no matter what they stand for or what they might have done. I guess if Charlie Manson runs for President as a Democrat the unions will support him. I have been a member of two unions and neither one ever supported anyone that did not have a D in front of their name. SHEEPLE.

[Fosters]

Home school your kids. you are obviously the most qualified.

Does that get me exemption from paying your salary? Or do you just want to get paid for not teaching my kid?

[duhtroll]

Give us a good reason why we need to "invest in your retirement benefits" as it stands now?

Then don't. Move to somewhere where taxes don't pay for education. I am sure you will be happy there. You can choose, yourself. You can school your own kids and be so much better off than those of us in the USA.


Without regard to the current fiscal problems the Cities, Counties and States are dealing with? The current system needs overhaul and re-structuring so public employees still get their benefits but going forward a more responsible system where the individual contributes more into their own retirement than existings...but please enlighten us with specifics?

The WI teachers agreed to the spending cuts Walker wanted.

We took pay cuts last year, too. Might even this year.

What else do you want? That is a serious question. People keep bitching that teachers should pay more in, so they say "OK" and people still go on bitching?


Example:
I know the San Jose Fire Chief makes $350K annually but then also received $120k in overtime pay which amounts to $470k. Then that salary will be used to his benefit when he retires. Why because his highest three years will be used to calculate his benefit package he receives? Is this fair arrangement for the tax payers?

I am not a fire chief nor are we discussing them here. But since he is one individual in a large city and likely worked very hard for a number of years to get where he is, I would say his salary should be fairly decent. Does he make more than the bank presidents in San Jose? If so, you have a decent argument.



I have friends that work for the police department that put in 70-80 hours and have base salary of say 80K they make an additional 60-70k in OT. 160-180k isnt unrealistic. Multiply this by "ALL" public sector workers then you see the dilemma. I say sure lets give benefits but there comes a point where that sort of system cannot be sustainable IMO.

Again, since we are talking about teachers it really isn't the same thing. In WI the police and fire KEPT their collective bargaining, just not the teachers. So in essence you are actually helping my argument since Gov. Walker is perpetuating the system and definitely making it NOT about money.

But -

I think I'd rather pay $80 K per year than not have someone out there working the beat. If they are willing to take a bullet for you, are you going to walk up to them and tell them they aren't worth it?

[duhtroll]

Be specific - how can they "get out of the way?"

Paying them more can't help, you say. Paying them less can certainly drive quality down, though.

It is the same argument Wall Street used for why brokers deserved such large bonuses with our bailout money.

They had contracts, not like those teachers. Oh, wait...


I am very late to this discussion. I have been learning botany while mowing my lawn. Bottom line, the county is circling the drain and a great many of the very wonderful things :rolleyes:,for which we have spent borrowed money for years, we can no longer justify. If more money, Federal control, smaller class sizes, tenure and unions could solve our failing educational system we would have no reason for this discussion. Sadly, we are no closer to solutions. I read a lot of self serving breast beating but no new ideas that offer any promise of improvement using the current model. It is way beyond time for the Feds, unions and teachers to get out of the way of reform. Just my uninformed 2 cents. Dennis

[duhtroll]

You don't pay my salary.

So I guess, uh, yes?

Not sure what you mean.


Does that get me exemption from paying your salary? Or do you just want to get paid for not teaching my kid?

[Fosters]

Did you read that we have taken pay cuts the last two years? Did you read that the WI teachers' union agreed to the cuts the Governor wanted?


Yes, they didn't agree with the collective bargaining part though. Makes you wonder why, doesn't it? It couldn't be that at the lower level of governments, they could just put their whole weight against the taxpayers and renegotiate those benefits back up? Funny how all of the cuts and sacrifices, always end up costing the taxpayers more.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/expend.gif

Sadly, this is the best the department of education has available on their site, but I don't see the trend going down anytime soon, not with who's running the white house. Maybe now, after November 2010.



Guess not.

It is nice to know that your views include teachers being on the same educational value as a Wal-Mart cashier though. That pretty much colors everything you say.

And yes, my paychecks cover the 193 days that I work, nothing more and I am not paid for more than 5 days off -- the aforementioned federal holidays.

You simply saying "nuh-uh" doesn't mean you're right. I am sorry you cannot accept the truth.

Really? So tell us, how do you pay your bills in those 2 months that you don't get paid for? And holiday pay does not mean vacation pay.



Or are you referring to the ability we have to divide our pay over 12 months instead of 10? Do you think by doing that we get paid more than for the 193 days in our contract?

So you get paid for 193 days you spread it around for all 260 working days of the year, and then you claim you don't get paid enough? Or how the public sector wally world cashier makes more than you? Guess what, he works 260 days. That's why he makes more than you, because he works more than you.



And for the record, every teacher in our district puts in far more than the 193 days. We are only paid for the 193, regardless. But since you probably don't believe that either, I must be lying?

I believe that. You're not the only one, get used to it. When I was a contractor, I got paid exactly what I worked for. As soon as I got converted to full time, funny how my 40 hour weeks became 60 hour weeks. Spare me the 'woe is me' mantra. That's life. Again, don't like it, find another profession, or move up higher.


And if a kid can't spell, you blame their teacher? Really?

Are you aware there are kids out there that are going to be willfully stupid regardless of what they are taught? You know, like those who insist that I have 10 or more vacation days despite being told otherwise?
Funny how these numbers of these stupid kids suddenly started getting worse when the Department of Education got started by Jimmy Carter.


I would bet that MOST teachers have less than 10 vacation days. Time off as *unpaid* does not count as vacation, despite you making it sound like we are on yachts in the Caribbean. :rolleyes:


You receive a paycheck during those 2 months off. You get paid. End of story. You can try to weasel it and make it sound like it's for the other 10 months that you work, but at the end of the day, the private sector works 12 months out of 12, you work 10 months out of 12. Call it unpaid leave if it makes you happy, but your paychecks don't stop, you're not behind on bills, and you don't pick up another job for those 2 months out of the year. If I don't get paid for 2 months out of the year because I'm between contracts or whatever, I don't get a paycheck anymore. That is what not getting paid means. And if at the end of that year I still make more than you, it's because I work harder. Again, want more money, go be a college coach.

I once had a job as an internet research specialist - I **** you not - I liked that job a lot. Though it was getting paid 12 bucks an hour. Guess what, I ended up moving on. I'm now a database admin, walking around with a work phone on call 24/7. I do still wish I was an internet research specialist, but making the money I'm making now... I guess I should have joined a union.


I am really disgusted by the idea you present that anyone can force a child to do anything. I have good students and I am a good teacher. Therefore we succeed. But if a student does not master a certain skill, they can only blame themselves. It is not as if the skill was not presented properly.

I don't know why you can't understand that. But I guess that was your teachers' fault, not yours.

And yes, I challenge each and every one of you out there who are unsatisfied with public education. Send your kids to private school or home school them.

But if you do that then you might have to admit that there are other factors in a child's education than just blaming teachers for everything, and we can't have that... :rolleyes:

If I got a voucher for my taxes back or somehow got to not pay my taxes, and got to choose between private schools and/or home schooling vs public education, I would in a heartbeat. Wasn't that tried, and was very successful in DC? Right up to the point where Obama killed the voucher program that is...

And I bet your union wouldn't like that much.

[dohc324ci]

Then don't. Move to somewhere where taxes don't pay for education. I am sure you will be happy there. You can choose, yourself. You can school your own kids and be so much better off than those of us in the USA.

What you just did was introduce something new to the argument to deflect; Fallacy. Please answer the question? Why "should" we? What is your argument?


The WI teachers agreed to the spending cuts Walker wanted.

We took pay cuts last year, too. Might even this year.

What else do you want? That is a serious question. People keep bitching that teachers should pay more in, so they say "OK" and people still go on bitching?

Dont be confused here Dutroll; I want to compensate the right folks but the system cannot sustain its current benefits/compensation. It should be a fair arrangement for the tax payer and the public sector employee; just realistic.


I am not a fire chief nor are we discussing them here. But since he is one individual in a large city and likely worked very hard for a number of years to get where he is, I would say his salary should be fairly decent. Does he make more than the bank presidents in San Jose? If so, you have a decent argument.


Again, since we are talking about teachers it really isn't the same thing. In WI the police and fire KEPT their collective bargaining, just not the teachers. So in essence you are actually helping my argument since Gov. Walker is perpetuating the system and definitely making it NOT about money.

But -

I think I'd rather pay $80 K per year than not have someone out there working the beat. If they are willing to take a bullet for you, are you going to walk up to them and tell them they aren't worth it?

Yes I agree I want to compensate for hazard pay but their has to be an arrangement that can balance out the equation where Cities, Counties and States will not put the public at risk because of the un-funded liabilities.

The only reason why I included police, fire, teachers, nurses is because that is the elephant in the room no one wants to acknowledge. Administrators, mid levels, clerical type personnel all receive this sort of compensation. How do you suggest we fix this mess? Pay for performance? Pay for tenure? Pay for position?

The ole argument of the wall street banker is just a scapegoat. Why just like those in the public sector unions they are beneficiaries of the current system? They gave out high risk loans because the government (politicians) said the American dream is home ownership equality for all...so bingo bango lower the standards back it with Fannie Mae; Freddie Mac here we are? The easing of those standards caused allowed the greed. Usually when the investment banker holds investments its because the risk is too high for the return; when the government took away the risk then why not the fed government backed it?

BTW, even prior to the wall street debacle cities, counties and states where in the Red. San Jose is 110M in the red; by 2015 that figure goes up to 400m.

[CBT]

Good for you -- except that none of your rant below applies to teachers.

You're confusing private sector unions with public sector unions.

Again I ask - how many teachers do you see in big houses with nice cars and huge stock portfolios?

You guys are being told to hate and therefore you hate. Be an adult as you say and look up the facts, or just realize that teachers aren't as rich as those on TV would have you believe.

There are more than one kind of union?! Great.....
I don't hang out with teachers. For all I know they all live in million dollar homes with nice cars and huge stock portfolios, but I'll never know. I said I think they may deserve to be paid more. Now I'm having second thoughts. My post wasn't a slam against teachers but since you take it that way, I'll go ahead and play along. If my post upset you because you are a teacher making less than you'd like, don't blame me for *****y career choices you made. If you are not a teacher and are so upset, perhaps you should become one, and champion the cause of better teacher pay.

[LIGHTNIN1]

They really get upset when you start talking about their ALMIGHTY COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RIGHTS. The next thing you know prisoners will want their collective bargaining rights. What these people can't figure out is they have been getting from the taxpayer what the tax payer can't get.The federal Government can print money but the states can't, therein lies a distinct problem.Oh and just for kicks- CHARLIE MANSON for PRESIDENT.

[MERCMAN]

Well, what started out as a funny video turned into one hell of a hot potato. My apologies to those who have strong feelings about the topic, as it was not meant to be a "political" thread. The wrongs and rights of this issue are bigger than this board(as most issues are)

I will be careful in the future about touchy subjects!

Hope to see a bunch of you @ Louisville