Water Methanol injection system

[russell072009]

my uncle has been building hot rods and race cars for about 50 years. he keeps telling me to add this kit to the marauder but im still not sure how safe it would be on our cars.

http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=9

according to him this system works wonders on his engines. Those are carbed not EFI and my engine is bone stock not built to race. does anyone here have any experience with a system like this?

[musclemerc]

There is a "mystery member" here that runs Meth. His kit is custom made, he runs 3 water injector's that connect to the bottom of the lower intake. He made #1 on the N/A HP thread I wrote but did not want to reveal who he is. I'll send him a PM and ask if it's time to step out of the dark.

I know his identity ;)

Here is the list with his dyno info:
http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=64672

[massacre]

Methanol injection is a form of intercooler, it's just a chemical intercooler instead of using cold air, or cold water.
Mostly boosted cars run this as an alternative to a separate intercooler to cool the incoming intake charge.
Only problem is, if you run the meth tank dry, or a hose breaks, or there is any problem with the delivery, chances are your engine will be going kaput
(if you are running big boost).

Snow makes a good kit, not too many people add this as a first mod.
If you were a boosted car running with no intercooler at all, I'd say it would be better than nothing.

But since your car is bone stock, I would save my pennies for something else.

[Blown3.8]

Wouldn't mess with it on a NA car, like Massacre said. I've used the snow MAF kit for years with no problems. If you get it definatly opt for the 7 qt or larger tank.

[Blackened300a]

Methanol injection is a form of intercooler, it's just a chemical intercooler instead of using cold air, or cold water.
Mostly boosted cars run this as an alternative to a separate intercooler to cool the incoming intake charge.
Only problem is, if you run the meth tank dry, or a hose breaks, or there is any problem with the delivery, chances are your engine will be going kaput
(if you are running big boost).

Snow makes a good kit, not too many people add this as a first mod.
If you were a boosted car running with no intercooler at all, I'd say it would be better than nothing.

But since your car is bone stock, I would save my pennies for something else.

My friend has this hooked up in his Supercoupe. He claims that its like running race gas at all time and has some safety measures like pulling timing if something should happen.

[justbob]

I've been curious as well on how to use properly.

All the time?
Where do you even buy Methanol?
Mixture ratio?
Need to retune?

Would this be a huge benefit for everyday driving or would I be filling the tank ALL the time?
Just one of those things my ADD won't seem to let me grasp. :) It's always the easy topics:shake:

[Blackened300a]

I've been curious as well on how to use properly.

All the time?
Where do you even buy Methanol?
Mixture ratio?
Need to retune?

Would this be a huge benefit for everyday driving or would I be filling the tank ALL the time?
Just one of those things my ADD won't seem to let me grasp. :) It's always the easy topics:shake:

Window washer fluid is used as methanol. You can buy gallons for 99 cents each! It works like NOS so I guess you would tune the same way and either use a flip chip or just make sure you have enough before going WOT.

[JBeezy]

I ran a Snow Boost Cooler on my Supercharged Mustang. Works great and easy to install. When u run out of boost juice you can buy -40 below windshield washer fluid to use in it. Works great as well

[FordNut]

Washer fluid is not recommended by the makers of the meth injection systems, nor by anybody who has disassembled a car that used it. First, the amount of methanol can vary dramatically in washer fluid, sometimes 30% to 50%. Second, if you see the corrosion inside an engine that has used the stuff you'll know why.

If you want to have confidence the mix is consistent and can't get ahold of a performance shop that has a drum of methanol, get heet fuel treatment. There are several different types of treatment, some are ethanol, others are methanol, and still more are isopropanol or even a mixture. Make sure you use one that is pure methanol and mix it with an equal amount of distilled water for a 50% mix. Not just any bottled water, most of it has minerals added so you want to use distilled water.

[russell072009]

i was curious as to how the PCM would handle the system kicking in. Apparently you set it by RPM and engine vacuum for when to kick on. I don't know how the computer would like going from 91-93 to basically 110 octane with water.

[FordNut]

The only way to make it worthwhile is with a tune specifically adjusted for the water/meth injection. It would have to advance timing a great deal to make any additional power, and even then it won't be a very significant power increase in a NA engine. So you're probably looking at a $1k investment for a few horses and more opportunities for failure. Been there, done that.

Going to try to sell the Snow Performance kit that I took off my car soon. It is pretty much everything needed to put two nozzles in the manifold (originally intended for the post-blower installation for a roots/twin screw) plus one nozzle in the intake tube. Got the pump, Hobbs switches, valves, MAF-variable controller, nozzles, bungs, reservoir (modified windshield washer reservoir) check valve, filter.

[LeoVampire]

my uncle has been building hot rods and race cars for about 50 years. he keeps telling me to add this kit to the marauder but im still not sure how safe it would be on our cars.

http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=9

according to him this system works wonders on his engines. Those are carbed not EFI and my engine is bone stock not built to race. does anyone here have any experience with a system like this?

You do not need the meth to make a system work well just the water can do wonders in helping the system atomize fuel and air better and lower the combustion temp in the cylinders. Plus it helps to break up and lower the amount of carbon build up. But it is a pain to get the right mixture set up before you lose power instead of gain it. BTW use distilled water there is no metal particulates in it to cause rust or build up you can buy it @ most major grocery stores.

In the old days we would run fuel lines coiled up in a container that looked like a ice bucket and fill it with dry ice to cool the fuel down on the track.

24002

As you can see in this picture the silver canister in the lower right hand corner near the firewall.

[BODYMAN]

Washer fluid is not recommended by the makers of the meth injection systems, nor by anybody who has disassembled a car that used it. First, the amount of methanol can vary dramatically in washer fluid, sometimes 30% to 50%. Second, if you see the corrosion inside an engine that has used the stuff you'll know why.

If you want to have confidence the mix is consistent and can't get ahold of a performance shop that has a drum of methanol, get heet fuel treatment. There are several different types of treatment, some are ethanol, others are methanol, and still more are isopropanol or even a mixture. Make sure you use one that is pure methanol and mix it with an equal amount of distilled water for a 50% mix. Not just any bottled water, most of it has minerals added so you want to use distilled water.

I wandered how long before someone cleared the air on this. A true Meth kit Like Brian says DOES NOT use washer fluid. I have ran it in several other cars
in the past with good results when used correctly but like anything it has good & bad.

[BODYMAN]

The only way to make it worthwhile is with a tune specifically adjusted for the water/meth injection. It would have to advance timing a great deal to make any additional power, and even then it won't be a very significant power increase in a NA engine. So you're probably looking at a $1k investment for a few horses and more opportunities for failure. Been there, done that.

Going to try to sell the Snow Performance kit that I took off my car soon. It is pretty much everything needed to put two nozzles in the manifold (originally intended for the post-blower installation for a roots/twin screw) plus one nozzle in the intake tube. Got the pump, Hobbs switches, valves, MAF-variable controller, nozzles, bungs, reservoir (modified windshield washer reservoir) check valve, filter.

Brian, are you planning on running anything to help cool IAT's? Like a KC (Killer Chiller) kit?

[FordNut]

I've considered a KC, but really don't think I need it. I have a huge heat exchanger and it seems to do a good job.

[justbob]

I'm just looking for a way to stop losing so much power once it starts to hit 70's! I don't even want to drive it come 90's. Sure it has some power, but I wouldn't even think about a challenge, I would be embarrased at the results.

[BODYMAN]

I've considered a KC, but really don't think I need it. I have a huge heat exchanger and it seems to do a good job.

I to am going to be running a very good heat exchanger, But also have concerns when temp gets way up there I plan on seeing how it does in summer months. I have a few buddys one with 04 Termi other with Lightning both running a KC and it seems to work pretty good at keeping IAT's acceptable on very hot days.

[BODYMAN]

I'm just looking for a way to stop losing so much power once it starts to hit 70's! I don't even want to drive it come 90's. Sure it has some power, but I wouldn't even think about a challenge, I would be embarrased at the results.

Agree its the one downfall of roots type in my opinion. Not like my Vortech it does pretty good on hot days. I know Zack is using a KC kit, but not sure he has had it in the summer months yet?

[FordNut]

Agree its the one downfall of roots type in my opinion. Not like my Vortech it does pretty good on hot days. I know Zack is using a KC kit, but not sure he has had it in the summer months yet?

Didn't know that. I'd also be interested in whether there is a reduction in cabin cooling capacity.

[Blown3.8]

I go to the track and fill up with meth. Then mix it myself when I need it. I've had a 5 gallon pail for 3 years now. I don't daily drive the car but the nice thing about it you only use it when you need it at WOT.

Definatly get the big resevoir. You could also put a low fluid sensor in it to tell you when its low.

I see an averaage of 30* drop in IAT temps with it and thats at 20+ pounds of boost.

The other nice thing is it acts as a buffer for a bad tank of fuel, for the street guys on stock internals.

Bob it would help with your power loss in the warmer weather. Did you do the IAT2 mod? If you have a X cal you should data log the car and see what the IAT's are and how much timing is being pulled when its warm out and also when its cool so you can see what is happening.

It won't hurt the blower if you want an easier install before the blower. I used to run a small shot before the blower and a bigger one after.

You don't have to tune for it, but you will get more power if you do. The car will run more rich if you don't tune it also you can add timing with it.

[Blown3.8]

Ah here's the logs I was looking for.

This is with a m112 blower at about 21psi on my bird with a pretty big front mount intercooler and NO alky injection.:eek: Look at them IAT's(ACT in the side bar, highlighted). You can also look at the spark line and see it falling once the IAT hit 150.
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u216/blown38/m112_30pulley_noAlky.jpg

Now here is a log with the alky on. Much better:) Timing not falling off, staying at the full 26* in the upper rpms.
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u216/blown38/m112_30_alky_shootout.jpg

[BODYMAN]

Didn't know that. I'd also be interested in whether there is a reduction in cabin cooling capacity.

When riding in my buddys Lightning on a 91* degree day (blk Truck) I didnt notice a diff in cabin temp but he did have it on high the whole time. I have wandered more about how it would do on r-12 compared to R-134 since R-12has such a better cooling affect. Researching KC vs Meth and having used meth before I like the KC theory better.I know Iam gonna have to do one or another cause I wont be able to resist driving it on a sunny 95 degree with out getting into the pedal. Heres a good link Brian on a temp test http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Ql84-iz6I

[justbob]

Thanks for that info Chris. Yes, I added the IAT2 right before my Kurgan tune. I average 28* above ambient when moving, but immediately hit 40* above at red lights. I haven't checked to see what the timing is doing, but I can guarantee it is pulling big time. I was considering at minimum a dual 10" or 12" pusher fan set up and possibly a bigger heat exchanger, but wouldn't that just be blowing the same hot air? How about a summer tune? My car was dynoed in upper 40's weather and feels so damn strong and confident up to around 60* temps.

I would love to see what she could do at the track in the 30*'s!! I know for a fact it would be in the 11's.. I am very limited in knowledge at dataloging at knowing just what to look for and what targets to hit. Perhaps I will call upon you when temps increase for some guidance if you don't mind.

Thanks Chris.

[Blown3.8]

Thanks for that info Chris. Yes, I added the IAT2 right before my Kurgan tune. I average 28* above ambient when moving, but immediately hit 40* above at red lights. I haven't checked to see what the timing is doing, but I can guarantee it is pulling big time. I was considering at minimum a dual 10" or 12" pusher fan set up and possibly a bigger heat exchanger, but wouldn't that just be blowing the same hot air? How about a summer tune? My car was dynoed in upper 40's weather and feels so damn strong and confident up to around 60* temps.

I would love to see what she could do at the track in the 30*'s!! I know for a fact it would be in the 11's.. I am very limited in knowledge at dataloging at knowing just what to look for and what targets to hit. Perhaps I will call upon you when temps increase for some guidance if you don't mind.

Thanks Chris.

Yeah man anytime. I now have fans on my IC to keep air moving over it in the staging lanes and that keeps the temp down about 10-15* to start the race.

Theres not really a summer tune. Tuners set it up so timing starts being pulled at a certain IAT. But you could put the meth on there and just use it in the warm months with a tune for it.

I like the killer chiller and wish it could be incorporated on an air ro air system. A long time ago when I still had AC on my car I thought of wrapping freon pipe around my IC pipes to see if that would help.

[DTUB]

I'm just looking for a way to stop losing so much power once it starts to hit 70's! I don't even want to drive it come 90's. Sure it has some power, but I wouldn't even think about a challenge, I would be embarrased at the results.
Bob, when you say losing power are you talking strickly WOT or are you refering to part throttle response?

[justbob]

WOT. Rest seems fine.

[DTUB]

Ok, since your happy with the PTR as the car warms up then you might want to consider a meth kit. Iv'e been talking to my new tuner Tim Barth from Mr. Norms and hes had great results using these kits. Cooler temps and more timing. :)

[Michael]

I am also interested in this chiller device, the draw backs I see are that the compressor draws alot of horse power to run and also draws alot of amperage from the alternator to keep the clutch engauged. That has to be 25 horse power maybe? Normally the compressor kicks out at full throttle from the factory also, maybe the kit overrides this?

[DTUB]

There are a few more drawbacks than this if your going to run a KC.

[Michael]

I agree. Weight of the components, reduced air conditioner efficiency, the commpressor does not like 6100 rpm, probably expensive. Still would like to see some numbers in a controled environment. Dought it's worth it.

I run a water meth kit on my blown 460 pre blower to seal the rotors and to help cool it. Will be installing two nozzle post blower eventually to get the best bennifit.:burnout:

[BODYMAN]

Like anything good and bad. On SVT a while back someone did a comparision between gain from cooler IAT's vs approx lose related to KC and was still a fair gain incl a on a dyno both ways. Like Methanol or anything for that matter +'s -Negatives.

[DTUB]

And the meth will add octane too.

[FordNut]

Ok, since your happy with the PTR as the car warms up then you might want to consider a meth kit. Iv'e been talking to my new tuner Tim Barth from Mr. Norms and hes had great results using these kits. Cooler temps and more timing. :)

Tell Tim I said hi! He was my tuner for years, then he left the Atlanta area.

[DTUB]

Tell Tim I said hi! He was my tuner for years, then he left the Atlanta area.
Will do, I'll be talking to him tomorrow about my E85 fuel system and a possible meth kit. He did mention you as well as a few other MM's hes worked on. Nice guy and one hell of a nice shop.

[babbage]

I'm just looking for a way to stop losing so much power once it starts to hit 70's! I don't even want to drive it come 90's. Sure it has some power, but I wouldn't even think about a challenge, I would be embarrased at the results.


http://www.designengineering.com/catalog/cryo2-system-components

They have a kit to cool fuel, and cool your heat exchanger.