MAF Sensor Available

[FordNut]

I've been checking into the listing of an 80mm Pro-M MAF sensor recently listed on the pro-flow.com website. The only place I found reference to it is in the link for price list. It comes with a conical air filter and claims a 17 hp increase. Who wants to be first to try it?

The following is what I have been able to learn from them thru a couple of e-mails. It seems hard to get complete answers to all the questions at once, but that's the best I've been able to do so far.

Beginning of message:

OK, you sort of answered at least part of my questions in the first e-mail. I intend to post the information from your reply at mercurymarauder.net and would like some more detailed replies. Many of the Marauder owners are seeking mods for their cars and this could be an opportunity for some free advertising. Some of my questions may seem like dumb questions, as I am a novice at this. But if I don't ask now, somebody else will ask about it after I post the information. Let's try again. I added your answers after the appropriate questions. Please answer the rest of the questions for me.

I know the Pro-M sensors have a very good reputation, and it is claimed that the stock Marauder sensor has a problematic response curve (a flat spot). I would like to see one of our members try one of your sensors and post their results.

I see you have a MAF sensor listed for the Marauder. I am interested in one, but I would like to retain the stock air box, at least until somebody comes out with a true cold air (like the March ram air system) intake kit for it.

Questions:
1. Will it fit and attach to the stock airbox?

A: It will not attach to the stock air box, it is a replacement for the stock box. It is a plastic 80mm mass flow meter with filter, adapter and hump hose. The kit does not come with a bracket. A bracket would have to be fabricated to do this.

2. If the length is different, I can possibly compensate with a modified intake tube length. Would it make any difference if it were mounted closer to the throttle body, or should it remain at the fenderwell?

A: The distance to the throttle body should not matter. But we provide the attachments to the throttle body hose.

3. I assume it is an 80mm Pro-M rather than a bullet style?

A: It is the 80mm style Pro M not the bullet style.

4. Is it plastic?

A. The unit is made of plastic to withstand the heat better.

5. Is it a direct fit to the existing wiring harness 6 pin connector?

A: It is a direct fit to the wiring harness so the IAT sensor is built into the meter.

6. Does it need a different IAT sensor?

A: See #5.

7. What re-calibrations are needed with it? I already have an aftermarket chip. I assume it will need a re-burn? If I did not have a chip already, does it come with one or is there another way to re-calibrate the PCM?

A: If you are going to have a chip made we can make one for you. Anyone having a chip made can have the maf transfer function added to the chip if needed. Usually for 2 injector sizes or larger, chip compensation is required. For stock injectors a chip is normally not required.

8. Your website claims a power increase of 17 hp. How much of this can be attributed to the air filter vs. the sensor? Were other engine tuning parameters (timing, etc.) adjusted for that gain or were the only changes to the tuning parameters related to the MAF sensor?

A: No answer.

9. Your price list has suggested retail prices. They seem to be quite a bit higher than most retailers are selling your MAF sensors for. Is it better and/or less expensive to order from a distributor or directly from you?

A: No answer.
End of message.

Additional comments/clarifications from me:
Question 2: I assume it is better to keep it closer to the fenderwell so it is a little cooler since the distance between the throttle body and MAF sensor apparently doesn't make a difference.
Question 7: I suppose we should check with Dennis and/or Jerry to see if the MAF transfer functions will make a difference.
Question 8: Obviously they don't know how much difference there is between MAF and MAF/conical filter but it sounds as if they did not chip it based on their answer to question 7. This 17hp is probably based on a stock car so one of our already modded cars probably wouldn't see this much increase.
Question 9: Their price list has a S/R price of $475 for the MAF and filter but I frequently see MAF sensors selling for $175-250. I don't know if the cheaper ones are MAF only without integral IAT and without filter or what. Didn't get any insight but maybe another member can dig into it a little more.

I figure a S/C car would need a bigger sensor, like maybe 90mm or 95mm.

[Effster]

[qoute]I figure a S/C car would need a bigger sensor, like maybe 90mm or 95mm.
yes fordnut,,the lightning maf is 90mm and will work just fine with a chip burn

[Marauderer]

Wow, pricey isn't it :) Well the Pro-M is a nice unit but is surely not necessary to fix the problem we have talked about before. I can safely say that the HP increases they quote typically come from leaning out your tune and are not fair numbers on a stock motor as the MAF is not a restriction and will support 400 - 450 RWHP. You can get an 80mm or 90mm lightning MAF for easier tuning for around 165.00 and even less if you can find a used one from where someone else went to a different unit. There are quite a few 80mm lightning MAFs out there from guys doing 90mm upgrades.

I'm installing a 90mm tomorrow then re-tuning, and will let you know how it goes.

As far as the MAF Trasfer Function table goes, you can program a new one in by using the supplied flow sheet from Pro-m and inputing the values into an excel spreadsheet. This will require a reburn of your chip to compensate as will any MAF change.

Here is some info you might find handy when changing the location of the MAF. I found this while traversing the f150online.com site looking for something similar. It is a tricky business as you do not want to change the velocity of the air before the MAF.



If you look at the shape of the meter, it has a larger inlet, that tapers to the main bore. The reason for this is because when used with a filter directly on the end of the meter, there is no airstream, just an open chamber. There is no velocity of airflow coming into the meter. So the meter is tapered to try to build velocity into the meter. When you use an intake tube on the inlet side of the meter, you now have an airstream already present. Since the bore of the meter is much smaller than the inlet size, as long as your intake tube to the meter is not smaller than the meter bore, there is no affect of having a tube smaller than the meter. With the smaller tube, you have more velocity of air flow into the meter, and this increases performance. Our old filter kit tubes were 6 1/2" long. So you have 6.5" of tube to build up air velocity, as opposed to the taper on the meter which is about 2" long, and has to convert open plenum air into velocity in 2".

I hope this helps!

[SergntMac]

Dayum Bill, you're early! I gave you another 24 hours, or another 10 posts before I expected to see your thoughts here, holidays and all donchano.

Thanks!

[FordNut]

Thanks, Bill.
From the quote you posted, it sounds like an intake tube increases performance. Is that the way you read it?

I also found quite a bit of information on this subject at modularfords.com

Keep us informed on the Lightning MAF performance. I guess it will install in the stock location instead of requiring a conical filter setup?

[Marauderer]

Yes, I'm shooting for putting it in the stock location with the stock airbox (for now :)). It should be here via fedex in the morning and hopefully I have it on and tuned within a couple of hours.

I read that into it as well, but I think that the "performance" of which they were speaking was extremely "relative". The vendor was discussing a key difference in the performance of a 9" conical filter versus the now popular 12" filter. Bigger filter, but it caused a smaller intake tube length due to the available space, which actually slowed the air velocity and decreased performance slightly instead of improving it! It is very interesting to read this type of info and see how sometimes "what seems to make sense" actually doesn't!

[FordNut]

Is the Cobra 99-01 80mm MAF the same as the Lightning 80mm?

[Marauderer]

But I thought I had a sheet that showed that they were different. I know the Marauder MAF for me is falsely pegging out at 49.33 #/min and I know the Lightning 90mm pegs at a known 62#/min.

I thought the older cobras pegged out in the 40's versus the 80mm lighting at a known 56#/min. That's why some guys were switching to the lightning MAF for low power range bolt-on's cause they were cheaper than the C&L's and Pro-M's.

I'll email Jerry and ask him which MAF he would like to see on a N/A Marauder for tuning. My guess is the 80mm Lightning unit, but he is the man!

[Marauderer]

Ya know, the answer is right there in the numbers anyway. I'm not sure how we got on this subject a while back for a N/A car, but if you look at the air flow that I am pegging at, which Jerry said was very common for "blower" equipped Marauders, it is way, way, above what you might expect to see stock or with N/A type mods. Therefore, the MAF should not be an issue until what, the 400 RWHP range? I think then, it will depend on what you are doing, so there is no need for anyone without a blower to run out and replace their MAF anytime soon, unless you have some BIG plans on the table!

[FordNut]

OK, I did some checking and found that '02 or newer have the integral IAT sensor, so the older Cobra one would not be a direct interchange. I'll have to do some more checking about the Lightning/Cobra comparison on the 80mm units.

I was thinking the reason for changing on a N/A car was not capacity limitation but non-linear response (flat spot?)

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Marauderer
I'm not sure how we got on this subject a while back for a N/A car, but if you look at the air flow that I am pegging at, which Jerry said was very common for "blower" equipped Marauders, it is way, way, above what you might expect to see stock or with N/A type mods. Therefore, the MAF should not be an issue until what, the 400 RWHP range? I think then, it will depend on what you are doing, so there is no need for anyone without a blower to run out and replace their MAF anytime soon, unless you have some BIG plans on the table!

Whew...

Thanks!

[Marauderer]

Fordnut,

I can confirm that the 90mm lightning MAF doesn't have the integrated ACT. The mount for it is there but the part isn't :) as the lightning has an internal ACT. It does however bolt right in place of our 80mm MAF! You have to stretch the end of the zip tube a little bit to get it on, but it is no problem. As far as the flat spot goes that we were talking about in this and a couple of other threads, here is the total scoop as I know it :) I think this might help in making a decision on whether to replace it or not or more importantly when to replace it.

We have talked about this before, but I wanted to go over it again real quick for those that didn't follow the other threads. What happens is, our MAF reaches some weird point where it doesn't peg, but it sort of plateaus (once or twice) as we have talked about in the past. What you have to do is graph out your MAF voltage and look for the first plateau and use that value as the "reading limit" of your MAF. The theory is that this is the highest point at which it gives you a reliable reading on a highly modified car.

Here is where the range of this limitation becomes very important. If you look at our MAF Transfer Function table, it pegs out at about 57.1 #/Min which accounts for a ton of HP and improvement over stock. Mine however, first plateaued at 49.3 #/min, which we used as the new "limit" of what it could read. This means that we went in and adjusted my MAF Transfer function table to peak out at this number and not go any higher. Then we adjusted my commanded A/F ratio from that point on up asking for a progressively richer A/F, which fools the computer overall into giving you what you want.

So that's easy enough to do, but I think the main moral of the story is that our stock MAF does plateau, but if you look carefully at the point at which it does (around the 49 #/min range) then you can see that you have plenty of room before it becomes an issue. That is why you see the major tuners sticking with it for so long as it is such a high flow unit already.

To really determine if you are reaching this plateau, you should monitor your MAF voltage, then graph it out to see if it exhibits this sames behavior (level off for several hundred RPM, go up suddenly, then level off again for several more hundred RPM, all somewhere below the peak of 5 volts -- for me it was about 4.78 volts that it started). You could also monitor your #/MIN and make sure you are not getting close to the 49# range. Depending on these results, you can determine when it might be appropriate to change your MAF, but remember, you will have to have your car retuned if you do!

I hope this helps! And man, has anyone ever told you that, that is one impressive mod list that you have going!

Bill,

[Big House]

Ok, without all of the techinical info, is it okto leave the stock MAF in. I ordered an 80mm Lighting unit for my T-Bird (RIP) and was wondering if I could get some real use out of it or should I just sell it. Let me know. Thanks.

[FordNut]

Ok, without all of the techinical info, is it okto leave the stock MAF in. I ordered an 80mm Lighting unit for my T-Bird (RIP) and was wondering if I could get some real use out of it or should I just sell it. Let me know. Thanks.
If you got a 80mm Lightning unit it should be the same as OEM so no use changing. If you got the 90mm unit it won't make much difference unless you add other mods, and many of the supercharged MMs are still using the OEM MAF with no ill effects.

[Big House]

Thanks. Has anyone here tried to run a filter into thee fender well? Is there room under there to possibly fit a conical K&Ndown low outside of the engine compartment?




If you got a 80mm Lightning unit it should be the same as OEM so no use changing. If you got the 90mm unit it won't make much difference unless you add other mods, and many of the supercharged MMs are still using the OEM MAF with no ill effects.

[warren]

I think we covered this some time ago. Our unit is good for 450hp if I recall.
Call Dennis Reinhart as he has some defined thoughts on this & can offer some solid direction backed up by testing. Also he has access to the new 90mm SCT MAF.


WarrenB :)