The Debt Ceiling

[PonyUP]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- It's official: The U.S. government hit the debt ceiling on Monday, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner told Congress.
Geithner said he would have to suspend investments in federal retirement funds until Aug. 2 (http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/02/news/economy/debt_ceiling_borrowing_needs/index.htm?iid=EL) in order to create room for the government to continue borrowing in the debt markets.

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The funds will be made whole once the debt limit is increased, Geithner said. "Federal retirees and employees will be unaffected by these actions."
He went on to urge Congress once again to raise the country's legal borrowing limit soon "to protect the full faith and credit of the United States and avoid catastrophic economic consequences for citizens."
Congress, meanwhile, is not showing any signs of budging. Many Republicans and some Democrats say they won't raise it unless Congress and President Obama agree to significant spending cuts and other ways to curb debt. (Social Security and Medicare squeezed (http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/13/news/economy/social_security_medicare_trust ees_report/index.htm?iid=EL))
Geithner told Congress that he estimates he has enough legal hoop-jumping tricks to cover them for another 11 weeks or so.
But then he said that's it. If lawmakers don't get it together by Aug. 2, the United States will no longer be able to pay its bills in full. (Slashing spending alone won't cut it (http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/12/news/economy/boehner_spending_cuts/index.htm?iid=EL))
The rhetoric about whether to raise the ceiling and under what conditions has been loud, harsh and, at times, misleading. Exasperatingly, it's far from over.
What is the debt ceiling exactly? It's a cap set by Congress on the amount of debt the federal government can legally borrow. The cap applies to debt owed to the public (i.e., anyone who buys U.S. bonds) plus debt owed to federal government trust funds such as those for Social Security and Medicare.
The first limit was set in 1917 and set at $11.5 billion, according to the Center for a Responsible Federal Budget. Previously, Congress had to sign off every time the federal government issued debt. (Take CNNMoney's deficit quiz (http://money.cnn.com/quizzes/2010/news/fiscal-debt/?iid=EL))
How high is the debt limit right now? The ceiling is currently set at $14.294 trillion. Based on Treasury's announcement, it hit that mark on Monday morning.
And by taking various extraordinary measures like suspending investments in federal retirement funds, Geithner will be able to bring total debt down enough to allow the government to continue borrowing until Aug. 2.
How is the ceiling determined? They don't admit it, but lawmakers tacitly agree to raise the debt ceiling every time they vote for a spending hike or tax cut.
"Congress has already passed and the president has already signed legislation that increases spending or decreases revenues. Those decisions have already been made," said Susan Irving, director for federal budget issues at the Government Accountability Office.
So in reality arguing over the debt ceiling is essentially arguing over whether to pay the bills the country has already incurred.
Debt ceiling: Time to get real (http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/31/news/economy/debt_ceiling_debate/index.htm?iid=EL)

But politicians who make a stink about the debt ceiling will always try to make the case that the guy who votes to raise it is a fiscal spendthrift.
And politics, of course, permeates the whole debate. Lawmakers who want to make hay of the issue for political gain may push for a small increase so the debate comes up again soon. Others may want a bigger increase so they don't have to revisit the issue for awhile.
How many times has the ceiling been raised? Since March 1962, the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times, according to the Congressional Research Service. Ten of those times have occurred since 2001.
Expect more of the same over the next decade. Barring major changes to spending and tax policies, "Congress would repeatedly face demands to raise the debt limit," CRS wrote.
Why does Congress even bother to set a debt limit? In theory, the limit is supposed to helpCongress control spending.In reality, it doesn't.
Every time the debt limit needs to be raised, lawmakers and the president are forced to take stock of the country's fiscal direction, which isn't a bad thing necessarily.
But the decision about how high to set the ceiling is divorced from lawmakers' decisions to pass spending hikes and tax cuts. It's also made after the fact, so it doesn't do much to pull in the purse strings.
That's why budget experts say it would be better to tie the debt limit decision to lawmakers' legislative actions.
What happens if Congress doesn't raise the debt ceiling before Aug. 2? No one knows for sure. But the going assumption is that no good can come of it.
What happens if Congress blows the debt ceiling? (http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/29/news/economy/debt_ceiling/index.htm?iid=EL)

Treasury would not have authority to borrow any more money. And that can be a problem since the government borrows to make up the difference (http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/03/news/economy/fiscal_commission_plan_breakdo wn/index.htm?iid=EL) between what it spends and what it takes in. It uses that borrowed money to help fund operations and pay creditors.
Geithner's critics say he could prevent default by simply paying the interest due to bondholders.
But since average spending -- minus interest -- outpaces revenue by about $118 billion a month, Geithner won't be able to pay all the country's bills.
That means he will have to pick and choose who to pay and who to put off every day. And there's no guarantee that paying interest while shirking other legal obligations will protect the country from the perception of default.
Geithner said it would be akin to a homeowner who pays his mortgage but puts off his car loan, credit cards, insurance premiums and utilities. The mortgage is taken care of, but the homeowner's credit could still be damaged.
Ultimately, if lawmakers fail to raise the ceiling this year, they will have two choices, both awful.
They could either cut spending or raise taxes by several hundred billion dollars (http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/17/news/economy/debt_limit_spending_cuts/index.htm?iid=EL) just to get through Sept. 30, which is the end of the fiscal year. Or they could acknowledge that the country would be unable to pay what it owes in full and the United States could effectively default on some of its obligations.

0:00 / 1:34 Debt ceiling's history lessons
The first option would be impossible to execute without serious economic repercussions.
And the second option could cripple the economy and send world markets into a tailspin.
"Not only the default but efforts to resolve it would arguably have negative repercussions on both domestic and international financial markets and economies," according to the CRS.
At a minimum, a default could hurt U.S. bonds, the dollar and investors' portfolios. "Our bond market and stock market would crash," said former Congressional Budget Director Rudolph Penner.
Will reaching the debt ceiling for good cause a government shutdown? Not technically.
A government shutdown occurs if lawmakers fail to appropriate (http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/21/news/economy/budget_funding/index.htm?iid=EL) money for federal agencies and programs.
By contrast, if the debt ceiling is breached, Uncle Sam would still have revenue coming in that could be used to fund the government, Penner noted.
But if Geithner is coming up short by $118 billion every month, and lawmakers just decide to cut spending by that amount, that could effectively mean a partial government shutdown. http://i.cdn.turner.com/money/images/bug.gif (http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/16/news/economy/debt_ceiling_deadline/index.htm#TOP?iid=EL)

First Published: May 16, 2011: 5:18 AM ET


I've said before and I'll say it again, why can't these ass-hammers figure out how to balance their checkbook, it's a skill learned in junior high. On the plus side, oil is back under $100. Not that it will matter, I love how they compare the failure to pay our countries bills to a homeowner paying their mortgage but not the rest of their bills. What they miss is that those of us in the responsible real world don't add a car payment when we can barely pay our mortgage.

Here is a Change I can believe in, how about some fiscal responsibility. if you don't have it, don't spend it. My 9 year old niece knows this, what doesn't our governement.

[CBT]

Hopefully everyone started stocking up on Gold and Silver back in 2008. Oh, and also stocking up on Lead.:uzi:

[PonyUP]

Hopefully everyone started stocking up on Gold and Silver back in 2008. Oh, and also stocking up on Lead.:uzi:

:lol: yuppers, lead would be handy and a good asset to have well the whole country looks like something out of "Escape from New York"

[SC Cheesehead]

I've said before and I'll say it again, why can't these ass-hammers figure out how to balance their checkbook, it's a skill learned in junior high. On the plus side, oil is back under $100. Not that it will matter, I love how they compare the failure to pay our countries bills to a homeowner paying their mortgage but not the rest of their bills. What they miss is that those of us in the responsible real world don't add a car payment when we can barely pay our mortgage.

Here is a Change I can believe in, how about some fiscal responsibility. if you don't have it, don't spend it. My 9 year old niece knows this, what doesn't our governement.

BIG +1, bubba!

[tbone]

This is why gas is so expensive. The dollar isn't worth SHITOLA anymore. They are PRINTING money because no one wants to buy our credit card debt anymore! The world doesn't want DOLLARS to buy their valuable oil and other goods anymore!

[tbone]

And they wring their hands at cutting $38 billion from the budget.
That's like me and you cutting our budget from $3000.00 per month to $2999.97!
Give me a break!

[CBT]

IMF leader Strauss-Kahn's alleged rape wasn't the weirdest development of the weekend… The land of the $100 trillion bill – Zimbabwe – is now worried about the U.S. dollar. The Central Bank of Zimbabwe is now considering a gold-backed currency. And in a public statement, the Zimbabwe government said the "days of the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency are numbered." When the poster boy for currency devaluation issues negative statements about the U.S. dollar, you know things are bad.

[Vostok]

I've said before and I'll say it again, why can't these ass-hammers figure out how to balance their checkbook, it's a skill learned in junior high. On the plus side, oil is back under $100. Not that it will matter, I love how they compare the failure to pay our countries bills to a homeowner paying their mortgage but not the rest of their bills. What they miss is that those of us in the responsible real world don't add a car payment when we can barely pay our mortgage.

Here is a Change I can believe in, how about some fiscal responsibility. if you don't have it, don't spend it. My 9 year old niece knows this, what doesn't our governement.

I think your oversimplifying this a little too much...It's a lot harder than it seems. We are talking about a country of 307 million people and trillions of dollars here. It's not as simple as balancing a checkbook. If the checkbook were to truly be balanced I assure you that your healthcare, social security, schools, law enforcement, government agencies and anything else from the government that benefits you would be immediately removed. I don't know for sure but I can almost guarantee if these things were to be hastily removed...a lot of death and chaos would ensue. The lack of fiscal responsibility is something that started decades ago under different administration and is now literally out-of-control. IMO a "radical" solution is at hand here. I don't think we can blame the guy writing the checks at this point in time. :alone:

[LIGHTNIN1]

IMF leader Strauss-Kahn's alleged rape wasn't the weirdest development of the weekend… The land of the $100 trillion bill – Zimbabwe – is now worried about the U.S. dollar. The Central Bank of Zimbabwe is now considering a gold-backed currency. And in a public statement, the Zimbabwe government said the "days of the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency are numbered." When the poster boy for currency devaluation issues negative statements about the U.S. dollar, you know things are bad.


Whats to be worried about? I feel we are in good hands with tax cheat Geithner and Printing Machine Bernanke in charge of the money supply. QE3 will start anytime. What could possibly go wrong?:rolleyes:

[SpartaPerformance]

I think your oversimplifying this a little too much...It's a lot harder than it seems. We are talking about a country of 307 million people and trillions of dollars here. It's not as simple as balancing a checkbook. If the checkbook were to truly be balanced I assure you that your healthcare, social security, schools, law enforcement, government agencies and anything else from the government that benefits you would be immediately removed. I don't know for sure but I can almost guarantee if these things were to be hastily removed...a lot of death and chaos would ensue. The lack of physical responsibility is something that started decades ago under different administration and is now literally out-of-control. IMO a "radical" solution is at hand here. I don't think we can blame the guy writing the checks at this point in time. :alone:

It's a lot more simple then you think. Start by stopping the 4 billion dollar oil company subsidies, ethanol subsidies, tax credits for car nobody wants. Did you know that people get $7,500 federal tax credit for buying a Volt, $3,000 for buying a leaf and also $3,000 for buying an electric Focus when it comes out. THAT'S INSANE!! Get rid of the 30+ Czars that Dumbama has, get rid of the 99 weeks of unemployment etc....

[kernie]

There are so many area's that are out of whack, here is one, incarceration rates.


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita

If the USA had similar rates as other western countries there would be about 400,000 inmates, not 2.2 million.

How much does it cost to house the extra 1.8 million inmates per year?

[SC Cheesehead]

I think your oversimplifying this a little too much...It's a lot harder than it seems. We are talking about a country of 307 million people and trillions of dollars here. It's not as simple as balancing a checkbook. If the checkbook were to truly be balanced I assure you that your healthcare, social security, schools, law enforcement, government agencies and anything else from the government that benefits you would be immediately removed. I don't know for sure but I can almost guarantee if these things were to be hastily removed...a lot of death and chaos would ensue. The lack of physical responsibility is something that started decades ago under different administration and is now literally out-of-control. IMO a "radical" solution is at hand here. I don't think we can blame the guy writing the checks at this point in time. :alone:

Other than law enforcement, I'm fine with dumping the rest. I'd be fine if we reverted to the most basic of federal government responsibilities; "to provide for the common Defense, and the creation of a standardized currency."


And another BIG +1 on the point about the fiscal responsibility mess. We were gradually heading downhill, but really hit the slippery slope with the implementation of the "Great Society" in the mid-60's.


It's a lot more simple then you think. Start by stopping the 4 billion dollar oil company subsidies, ethanol subsidies, tax credits for car nobody wants. Did you know that people get $7,500 federal tax credit for buying a Volt, $3,000 for buying a leaf and also $3,000 for buying an electric Focus when it comes out. THAT'S INSANE!! Get rid of the 30+ Czars that Dumbama has, get rid of the 99 weeks of unemployment etc....

Yup, can sum it all up in two words, Tommy: LESS GOVERNMENT.

“That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves,” and “…what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? …a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” - Thomas Jefferson

“Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.” - George Washington

[Vostok]

Other than law enforcement, I'm fine with dumping the rest. I'd be fine if we reverted to the most basic of federal government responsibilities; "to provide for the common Defense, and the creation of a standardized currency."


And another BIG +1 on the point about the fiscal responsibility mess. We were gradually heading downhill, but really hit the slippery slope with the implementation of the "Great Society" in the mid-60's.



Yup, can sum it all up in two words, Tommy: LESS GOVERNMENT.

“That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves,” and “…what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? …a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” - Thomas Jefferson

“Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.” - George Washington

I agree that the government should back off a lot but our society has created a LOT of dependencies on it. Removing a lot of it is the quickest and most effective solution but its going to have a lot of repercussions. I think we should do this but everyone should be warned. :bandit:

[SC Cheesehead]

I agree that the government should back off a lot but our society has created a LOT of dependencies on it. Removing a lot of it is the quickest and most effective solution but its going to have a lot of repercussions. I think we should do this but everyone should be warned. :bandit:

Take a pacifier away from a two year old and you'll get all kinds of screaming and crying, but eventually they quiet down... :cool:

[Vostok]

Take a pacifier away from a two year old and you'll get all kinds of screaming and crying, but eventually they quiet down... :cool:

I like the way you think. I know Uncle Sam has already thought about doing this but he is just scared of a revolution. :dunno: Personally I think it is about time we have one.

[SC Cheesehead]

I like the way you think. I know Uncle Sam has already thought about doing this but he is just scared of a revolution. :dunno: Personally I think it is about time we have one.

:D :up: :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrkwgTBrW78

[PonyUP]

I think your oversimplifying this a little too much...It's a lot harder than it seems. We are talking about a country of 307 million people and trillions of dollars here. It's not as simple as balancing a checkbook. If the checkbook were to truly be balanced I assure you that your healthcare, social security, schools, law enforcement, government agencies and anything else from the government that benefits you would be immediately removed. I don't know for sure but I can almost guarantee if these things were to be hastily removed...a lot of death and chaos would ensue. The lack of physical responsibility is something that started decades ago under different administration and is now literally out-of-control. IMO a "radical" solution is at hand here. I don't think we can blame the guy writing the checks at this point in time. :alone:

It is simplified, however I think part of the problem is governement has made it complicated over the years. Only once in the last 20 years has a President presented a balanced budget. Governement agencies ran, police and fire were well stocked and the sky didn't fall, it was back in the 90's where a democratic President and a republican congress worked with each other. fat chance of that happening today, regardless of who is in the house.

The problem is we hit a line where the finance nazi has said, "No cash For You" so those of us in our personal lives, when that happens, we make drastic changes. Is it hard to live? Yes, but it is what our finances have allowed. Those that have been hit by the current hard times have had to sell their homes, their cars, eliminate hobbies and pick up second jobs and side jobs just to make ends meet.

Our governement has hit this same proverbial wall, their solution
Spend more on Internet infrastructure
Spend more on renewable energy
Spend more on healthcare
Spend more on Education

If the governement wants to do all that spending, they better get a second job.

Start by what happens with a governement shutdown, the vital agencies stay in place, and non vitals close. We can do the same thing with spending cuts. Vital agenicies maintain their same budget, remaining agencies see a 20% cut across the board.

I agree with T-bone, talking about 38 billion in cuts is like firing a rubber bullet at Tomahawk missle, it might make you feel better but it won't be effective.

A Societies responsibility to to reinvent itself, we did it during the world wars, we did it during the depression, we did it during the 60's, we did it during the 80's and the 90's and we did it again following 9/11. We're due, it's been ten years, except this time we need to reinvent ourselve as a fiscally responsible nation. :beer:

I'm PonyUp, and I approved this message

[SC Cheesehead]

You got my vote, bubba...

[Ozark Marauder]

Our elected officials can't comprehend that we borrow $58,000.00 a second, yes I said $58,000.00 a second. Has anyone noticed the national news agencies are not telling the American public that the retirement funds of the federal employees are now footing the governments debt? Of course not. The deficit is hardly even mentioned.

This is the same thing that has caused Social Security to be almost extinct. Social Security was set up to be a self sustained pension plan that actually had excess money when the Government decided to borrow from the account to "balance the books.

Time to right this wrong of corrupt political spending. Vote all of the current policitians out of office. We need fresh ideas -limited vocabulary "NO."

[Kodimar]

It's a lot more simple then you think. Start by stopping the 4 billion dollar oil company subsidies, ethanol subsidies, tax credits for car nobody wants. Did you know that people get $7,500 federal tax credit for buying a Volt, $3,000 for buying a leaf and also $3,000 for buying an electric Focus when it comes out. THAT'S INSANE!! Get rid of the 30+ Czars that Dumbama has, get rid of the 99 weeks of unemployment etc....

The oil companies don't get subsidies, they get the same depreciation tax right offs that your business gets, nothing else.

Besides if you tax the gas companies by another 4 billion dollars do you think that will increase the price of gas or decrease it?

Other than that I completely agree with you.

[Joe Walsh]

Our elected officials can't comprehend that we borrow $58,000.00 a second, yes I said $58,000.00 a second. Has anyone noticed the national news agencies are not telling the American public that the retirement funds of the federal employees are now footing the governments debt? Of course not. The deficit is hardly even mentioned.

This is the same thing that has caused Social Security to be almost extinct. Social Security was set up to be a self sustained pension plan that actually had excess money when the Government decided to borrow from the account to "balance the books.

Time to right this wrong of corrupt political spending. Vote all of the current policitians out of office. We need fresh ideas -limited vocabulary "NO."

AMEN BROTHER!

You can argue about all sorts of F'd up Federal Government policies and actions....but that ^^^^^ is the only answer!

VOTE ALL LONG TERM INCUMBENTS OUT OF OFFICE!

[PonyUP]

The oil companies don't get subsidies, they get the same depreciation tax right offs that your business gets, nothing else.

Besides if you tax the gas companies by another 4 billion dollars do you think that will increase the price of gas or decrease it?

Other than that I completely agree with you.

True enough, I think we really need to stop painting the oil companies as the bad guys. We talk about their profits in the billions of dollars, when it realit they are typically showing a 4% profit, which by most business models is a failure.

Making it more expensive for oil companies to do business here, will cause them to increase their trend of putting the highest percentage of their oil on the international market. I think we need home grown oil companies designed to increase our oil supplies.

Also I think we need to stop supporting the ethanol idea, the incredible amount of cost involved in producing ethanol only adds to the pain, especially since it is government mandated. Let the gas companies on thier own decide if they want to provide ethanol gas, hell they can even charge a premium for it. My bet is when given a choice and put in the free market, ethanol would die a quick death.

[SC Cheesehead]

True enough, I think we really need to stop painting the oil companies as the bad guys. We talk about their profits in the billions of dollars, when it realit they are typically showing a 4% profit, which by most business models is a failure.

Making it more expensive for oil companies to do business here, will cause them to increase their trend of putting the highest percentage of their oil on the international market. I think we need home grown oil companies designed to increase our oil supplies.

Also I think we need to stop supporting the ethanol idea, the incredible amount of cost involved in producing ethanol only adds to the pain, especially since it is government mandated. Let the gas companies on thier own decide if they want to provide ethanol gas, hell they can even charge a premium for it. My bet is when given a choice and put in the free market, ethanol would die a quick death.

Amen, bro!

Not only are we subsidizing ethanol, but with the diversion of grains (primarily corn) to its production, supply to other agricultural commodity markets have tightened, driving up costs for animal foods, etc., resulting in; guess what?

If you've been to the supermarket recently, you'll know what I'm talking about.

[PonyUP]

Amen, bro!

Not only are we subsidizing ethanol, but with the diversion of grains (primarily corn) to its production, supply to other agricultural commodity markets have tightened, driving up costs for animal foods, etc., resulting in; guess what?

If you've been to the supermarket recently, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Tell me about it, the increase cost in gas, shipping, and everything else associate with food has caused food to skyrocket. I'm a bachelor and pretty much buy the same crap every month, bill was $30 higher this month. Absolutely asanine.

And What does Ethanol get us? Another useless tool meant to save the world. It's the Aquaman of the green folks.

[SC Cheesehead]

Tell me about it, the increase cost in gas, shipping, and everything else associate with food has caused food to skyrocket. I'm a bachelor and pretty much buy the same crap every month, bill was $30 higher this month. Absolutely asanine.

And What does Ethanol get us? Another useless tool meant to save the world. It's the Aquaman of the green folks.


Ah, but you're wrong, my friend, we're advancing the green agenda. :rolleyes:

http://images.grainger.com/B333_27/images/products/250x250/Environmental-Awareness-Sign-4EJH2_AL01.JPG

Now if we could just get that pesky cap and trade legislation in place... :shake: -----> :alone:

[CBT]

Ah, but you're wrong, my friend, we're advancing the green agenda. :rolleyes:

That's what I'm talkin' about. :bandit:

[SC Cheesehead]

That's what I'm talkin' about. :bandit:

http://www.gelaskins.com/images/originals/274_PotHead_original.jpg

[CBT]

Amen, bro!

Not only are we subsidizing ethanol, but with the diversion of grains (primarily corn) to its production, supply to other agricultural commodity markets have tightened, driving up costs for animal foods, etc., resulting in; guess what?

If you've been to the supermarket recently, you'll know what I'm talking about.

So just get groceries for free, let the tax-payers pay for that ****!!!

24650

[Bluerauder]

So just get groceries for free, let the tax-payers pay for that ****!!!

24650

Eatin' well on Food Stamps -- Porterhouse Steaks and Cold Water lobster. :rolleyes: I didn't know that Diet Mountian Dew (5 cases worth) went with Surf & Turf. :)

[LIGHTNIN1]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110516/ap_on_hi_te/us_led_lighting;_ylt=AsE3Gkdts e.WMyLRBM_sWOCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDM TNqNzVocWJlBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTE wNTE2L3VzX2xlZF9saWdodGluZwRjY 29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzg EcG9zAzUEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlY wN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawN s

Raise that debt ceiling to infinity, everything will be all right. Everyone worries too much.I can't wait to get my government mandated light bulbs, my government mandated green car along with government mandated green gas, my government mandated 200SF house,with a government mandated toilet loaded with government mandated green toilet paper.Seems to get ridiculous after awhile.Where did it all go wrong?:eek:

[PonyUP]

So just get groceries for free, let the tax-payers pay for that ****!!!

24650

:mad2::mad2::mad2:

(5) 24 packs of Mountain Dew $33.95
(8) Cold water Lobsters $71.92
(2) Porterhouse Steaks $23.91
Paying for it with Foodstamps and eating better than most hardworking familes is apparently priceless.

What I love is the welfare cap and trade

Selling foodstamps at half their value so they can go out and buy booze, cigarettes and drugs and continue to trade on my hard work.

For all the people that bust their ass to get off of welfare, I feel for you, because it's the deadbeats and manipulators that give the system a bad name.

[SC Cheesehead]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110516/ap_on_hi_te/us_led_lighting;_ylt=AsE3Gkdts e.WMyLRBM_sWOCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDM TNqNzVocWJlBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTE wNTE2L3VzX2xlZF9saWdodGluZwRjY 29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzg EcG9zAzUEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlY wN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawN s

Raise that debt ceiling to infinity, everything will be all right. Everyone worries too much.I can't wait to get my government mandated light bulbs, my government mandated green car along with government mandated green gas, my government mandated 200SF house,with a government mandated toilet loaded with government mandated green toilet paper.Seems to get ridiculous after awhile.Where did it all go wrong?:eek:

Didn't happen over night, for sure.

#1, We gave the federal government the abililty to pick our pockets, #2, they create a huge bureaucracy spending at unsustainable levels, and #3, rather than cut back, they just borrow more and more to try to keep the whole bloated mess going.

#1: Institution of Federal Income tax.
Amendment XVI to the Constitution of the United States of America ratified Feb. 3, 1913: "[Taxes on income; Congress given power to lay and collect.] The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0749825.html#ixzz1MdxvfEeN

#2: The Great Society initiatives of LBJ.
[A]n ambitious social program in the US in the late 1960's, intended to further the American promise to the poor and needy that was begun under the New Deal programs. It also aimed to eliminate racial injustice in America. Among several provisions include Medicare and Medicaid, which was to help poor people and elderly afford health insurance. Also more funds were provided for education and for cities to improve the infrastructure of America. Many laws were enacted to aid the American people.
Many of these laws created a divisive nation. While aid was given to areas of the nation that needed federal support, it did not end poverty in cities and injustice...Since its enactment, it has created an oversized bureaucracy that imposes many regulations. It also began the "welfare state" that has been become a major source of political and social contention in the US.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_the_Great_Society#ixz z1Mdzfq1nG

#3: Repeated raising of the debt ceiling.
Since March 1962, the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times, according to the Congressional Research Service. Ten of those times have occurred since 2001.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/03/news/economy/debt_ceiling_faqs/index.htm

[CBT]

:mad2::mad2::mad2:

(5) 24 packs of Mountain Dew $33.95
(8) Cold water Lobsters $71.92
(2) Porterhouse Steaks $23.91
Paying for it with Foodstamps and eating better than most hardworking familes is apparently priceless.

What I love is the welfare cap and trade

Selling foodstamps at half their value so they can go out and buy booze, cigarettes and drugs and continue to trade on my hard work.

For all the people that bust their ass to get off of welfare, I feel for you, because it's the deadbeats and manipulators that give the system a bad name.
Hey you don't get to decide what they eat with the money you give them, you should just be happy you kept someone from starving, mister! :rolleyes:

[PonyUP]

Hey you don't get to decide what they eat with the money you give them, you should just be happy you kept someone from starving, mister! :rolleyes:

You're right Casey, I'm overreacting. I should be more generous, how about I let these idiots that manipulate the system, well they can eat me

[tbone]

There are things they are not allowed to buy with foodstamps. I saw it first hand when the cashier had to interupt the person who was on their CELL PHONE that the item did not qualify. Of course, she had a hard time understanding, because she did not speak UGLY AMERICAN GRINGO.

[kernie]

There are so many area's that are out of whack, here is one, incarceration rates.


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita

If the USA had similar rates as other western countries there would be about 400,000 inmates, not 2.2 million.

How much does it cost to house the extra 1.8 million inmates per year?

Wow, you are right kernie, that is a big pile-o-cash wasted!

Ya know i think there might just be some more cash saved by kicking the crap out of the military budget.

But really we don't want to talk about those kind of things, let's just blame it on the poor, talk about a revolution, vote out every politician with experience, ahh that feels better!

Come-on kernie, get with the program!

[Bigdogjim]

How much per week do you think a "person" get's in food stamps?

Unemployment pays 60% of your last bass year, capped at set amount (don't know the amount)

Yes there is abuse with every State & Fed. programe.

If you look at the overall picture you are talking mear pennies:)

Target the big wast items, not the samll chit.

[Bigdogjim]

There are things they are not allowed to buy with foodstamps. I saw it first hand when the cashier had to interupt the person who was on their CELL PHONE that the item did not qualify. Of course, she had a hard time understanding, because she did not speak UGLY AMERICAN GRINGO.

That phone might have been a Goverment free phone.

Safe link program 250 minutes a month:)

[CBT]

You're right Casey, I'm overreacting. I should be more generous, how about I let these idiots that manipulate the system, well they can eat me

I'd pay 8 cold water lobsters to watch that. :lol:

[Bluerauder]

Yes there is abuse with every State & Fed. programe.

If you look at the overall picture you are talking mere pennies:)

Target the big waste items, not the small chit.

Welfare fraud and waste is a MUCH bigger problem than "mere pennies". You are probably talking anywhere from $40-60 Billion per year. The steak and lobster receipt is far more common than you suspect.

[SC Cheesehead]

Wow, you are right kernie, that is a big pile-o-cash wasted!

Ya know i think there might just be some more cash saved by kicking the crap out of the military budget.

But really we don't want to talk about those kind of things, let's just blame it on the poor, talk about a revolution, vote out every politician with experience, ahh that feels better!

Come-on kernie, get with the program!

Once again, my socialistic friend, you're a bit off target

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//PolicyBasic_WhereOurTaxDollars Go-f1_rev4-15-11.jpg
55% of the federal budget goes toward entitlement programs.

I'm not saying that there isn't room for trimming in the defense budget, but if you wanna impact spending, you gotta hit the big ticket items, three of which are entitlement-based.

[CBT]

Once again, my socialistic friend, you're a bit off target

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//PolicyBasic_WhereOurTaxDollars Go-f1_rev4-15-11.jpg
55% of the federal budget goes toward entitlement programs.

I'm not saying that there isn't room for trimming in the defense budget, but if you wanna impact spending, you gotta hit the big ticket items, three of which are entitlement-based.

Good luck wrestling lobsters and steaks from someone who deserves them for free and is so used to it they will fight for it to keep it. I'm sure some Liberal ****tard can actually spend quality time defending these actions. Libs and Democrats, two groups of people who would rather spend YOUR money trying to convice you that it's possible to grab the clean end of a pile of **** than to just stop people from getting **** on in the first place. Feels like Monday around here because this thread is depressing and pissing me off at the same time, just like Mondays. I'm going to go home and hug my American flag and then go do burnouts out of frustration at not being able to make any change I can believe in.

[PonyUP]

Once again, my socialistic friend, you're a bit off target

http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//PolicyBasic_WhereOurTaxDollars Go-f1_rev4-15-11.jpg
55% of the federal budget goes toward entitlement programs.

I'm not saying that there isn't room for trimming in the defense budget, but if you wanna impact spending, you gotta hit the big ticket items, three of which are entitlement-based.

Rex makes a strong point kernie, and yes defense is one of those entitlements. Is there room to trim in defense? Sure. Everyone on both sides of the ailse will tell you they need to fix social security, but that can't agree on how to do it. whether it is privatized accounts, raising the retirement age, how about this, that little loop hole the politicians wrote allowing them to spend social security funds, get that closed.

Medicare needs a real fix, and I can't believe I am saying this, but the Ryan plan actually makes quite a bit of sense to me. Giving medicare recipients a fixed $15,000 a year to buy insurance would allow for controlling of medical costs and open a competitive market which is to everyone's advantage. This also makes medicare a fixed spend in the budget saving billions of dollars.

this gets over complicated and it is real simple. The governement needs to take a look at the funds they have coming in (A sample of the last 10 years should do the trick) This is your budget. All the spending you want to do, needs to fall within this budget. If you ahve more spending you need to do, it's called fundraising. They are able to do it for their campaigns, Romney just collected $10 Million in one weekend of campaign fundraising.

Just like in the real world. I look at my take home pay for a month, out of this I budget for home, utilities, satellite tv, insurance, gas, food, and entertainment. Then I set aside a percentage each month for savings for future wants and needs, invest a percentage in the broker account, and contribute to my 401K.

As a result the only debt I have is a car payment for the Mustang. And guess what? If I don't pay it, they come and repo it.

That is how the government should work. If you borrow $600 billion for a fleet of new fighter jets and don't pay for it, they get repo'd

It all boils down to fiscal responsibility, you can't fix it by taxes alone (whether you believe is raising them or lowering them, it's not the fix. the fix is to teach these simpletons how to act responsibly with money.

If the government were a company and in this much debt (pretending that bankruptcy is not an option) what would the company do? They would cut overhead, reduce staff, reduce salaries, sell out divisions. This is what the government needs to do.

[Vortex]

Food stamps are actually a federal subsidy to our agriculture producers and corporate farms; giving the stamps away is just a way to bury the obviousness of the actual subsidy. If you tried to end the food stamp program the first complaints would come from things like Wisconsin big dairy and ADM. $60 billion dollars this in years budget. Im for overhauling the program. I also dont like to hear any preaching from politicians about budget cutting when the bill to end $21 billion in subsidies to big oil was defeated yesterday along party lines.

[Haggis]

Rex makes a strong point kernie, and yes defense is one of those entitlements. Is there room to trim in defense? Sure. Everyone on both sides of the ailse will tell you they need to fix social security, but that can't agree on how to do it. whether it is privatized accounts, raising the retirement age, how about this, that little loop hole the politicians wrote allowing them to spend social security funds, get that closed.

Medicare needs a real fix, and I can't believe I am saying this, but the Ryan plan actually makes quite a bit of sense to me. Giving medicare recipients a fixed $15,000 a year to buy insurance would allow for controlling of medical costs and open a competitive market which is to everyone's advantage. This also makes medicare a fixed spend in the budget saving billions of dollars.

this gets over complicated and it is real simple. The governement needs to take a look at the funds they have coming in (A sample of the last 10 years should do the trick) This is your budget. All the spending you want to do, needs to fall within this budget. If you ahve more spending you need to do, it's called fundraising. They are able to do it for their campaigns, Romney just collected $10 Million in one weekend of campaign fundraising.

Just like in the real world. I look at my take home pay for a month, out of this I budget for home, utilities, satellite tv, insurance, gas, food, and entertainment. Then I set aside a percentage each month for savings for future wants and needs, invest a percentage in the broker account, and contribute to my 401K.

As a result the only debt I have is a car payment for the Mustang. And guess what? If I don't pay it, they come and repo it.

That is how the government should work. If you borrow $600 billion for a fleet of new fighter jets and don't pay for it, they get repo'd

It all boils down to fiscal responsibility, you can't fix it by taxes alone (whether you believe is raising them or lowering them, it's not the fix. the fix is to teach these simpletons how to act responsibly with money.

If the government were a company and in this much debt (pretending that bankruptcy is not an option) what would the company do? They would cut overhead, reduce staff, reduce salaries, sell out divisions. This is what the government needs to do.

All politicians need to cut their salaries by at least 25%. Let's make this happen call your State and Federal Representatives.

[PonyUP]

Foodstamps are small potatoes compared to the giveaway tax subsidies to oil companies (that are earning record profits) that the Republicans refused to cut yesterday. Also, food stamps are actually a federal subsidy to our agriculture producers and corporate farms; giving the stamps away is just a way to bury the obviousness of the actual subsidy. If you tried to end the food stamp program the first complaints would come from things like Wisconsin big dairy and ADM.

I don't think it's fair to say the oil companies are making record profits. Sure in pure dollars, they are the highest they have ever been, but so is the volume of business. An Average of 4% profit is not high at all.

Regarding Food Stamps, yes they are a small part of the problem, but feed the larger welfare problem. Not saying that food stamps aren't needed, but they sure as hell shouldn't be buying steak and lobster with them. It needs restrictions.

So I go out to dinner one night and I order some surf and turf and a nice glass of wine. At a good restaurant, this costs between $50 and $75, but thats okay I can afford it and have budgeted for it and work hard for my money.

But the money I pay the government is also buying steak and lobster for some douche manipulating the system?????????

[PonyUP]

All politicians need to cut their salaries by at least 25%. Let's make this happen call your State and Federal Representatives.

Amen Brother and while we're at it, those pensions for life? Need to be gone

[Bluerauder]

.... and yes defense is one of those entitlements. Is there room to trim in defense? Sure.

Actually, defense spending is considered in the "discretionary" spending pot. That is why it gets so much scrutiny during the budget cutting exercises. How much defense do you want is similar to the "How fast do you wanna go?" You can cheap out on your go-fast mods and get your azz handed to you at the track. The same thing happens in the defense world but with much larger consequences. If you finance a 13 second defense machine .... don't be surprised by a 12 second competitor who calls you out and wants to go for "Pinks". ;)

There is a perception that the so-called "mandatory" spending elements such as Entitlements are Off-Limits. There is so much leakage in the entitlement pot that we can't bail fast enough to keep from going down with the ship. Its time to plug the hole .... or send out an S-O-S .... and get ready to abandon ship. And guess what ...... there still aren't enough lifeboats for everyone.

End of analogy. :P

[1 Bad Merc]

Didn't happen over night, for sure.

#1, We gave the federal government the abililty to pick our pockets, #2, they create a huge bureaucracy spending at unsustainable levels, and #3, rather than cut back, they just borrow more and more to try to keep the whole bloated mess going.

#1: Institution of Federal Income tax.
Amendment XVI to the Constitution of the United States of America ratified Feb. 3, 1913: "[Taxes on income; Congress given power to lay and collect.] The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0749825.html#ixzz1MdxvfEeN

#2: The Great Society initiatives of LBJ.
[A]n ambitious social program in the US in the late 1960's, intended to further the American promise to the poor and needy that was begun under the New Deal programs. It also aimed to eliminate racial injustice in America. Among several provisions include Medicare and Medicaid, which was to help poor people and elderly afford health insurance. Also more funds were provided for education and for cities to improve the infrastructure of America. Many laws were enacted to aid the American people.
Many of these laws created a divisive nation. While aid was given to areas of the nation that needed federal support, it did not end poverty in cities and injustice...Since its enactment, it has created an oversized bureaucracy that imposes many regulations. It also began the "welfare state" that has been become a major source of political and social contention in the US.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_the_Great_Society#ixz z1Mdzfq1nG

#3: Repeated raising of the debt ceiling.
Since March 1962, the debt ceiling has been raised 74 times, according to the Congressional Research Service. Ten of those times have occurred since 2001.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/03/news/economy/debt_ceiling_faqs/index.htm

"Woodrow Wilson made a drastic lowering of tariff rates a major priority for his presidency. The 1913 Underwood Tariff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwood_Tariff) cut rates, but the coming of World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) in 1914 radically revised trade patterns. Reduced trade and, especially, the new revenues generated by the federal income tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax) made tariffs much less important in terms of economic impact and political rhetoric. " Wikiepedia

Through the United States history we have always had some type of protectionist tariff in place. These tariffs were a way to raise money to pay our debts and protect our industries from cheaper foreign competition. They were used to create our giant steelmill industries as well as for growing our industrial base to make sure that in a time of war we had the manufacturing capability to win. It was not until the Federal Income tax was implemented that our tariff policy began to fade out quickly.

Free Trade and the GATT Treaties became the new ideology and quickly took over. Free Trade (in theory) is fantastic if you are operating with an equal partner (IE: Canada) on a level playing field. But when you are dealing with countries that are looking to exploit you for their own good and use our generosity and kindness against us it all comes tumbling down. I beleive we can see the results of these policies right now.

[SC Cheesehead]

"Woodrow Wilson made a drastic lowering of tariff rates a major priority for his presidency. The 1913 Underwood Tariff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwood_Tariff) cut rates, but the coming of World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) in 1914 radically revised trade patterns. Reduced trade and, especially, the new revenues generated by the federal income tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax) made tariffs much less important in terms of economic impact and political rhetoric. " Wikiepedia

Through the United States history we have always had some type of protectionist tariff in place. These tariffs were a way to raise money to pay our debts and protect our industries from cheaper foreign competition. They were used to create our giant steelmill industries as well as for growing our industrial base to make sure that in a time of war we had the manufacturing capability to win. It was not until the Federal Income tax was implemented that our tariff policy began to fade out quickly.

Free Trade and the GATT Treaties became the new ideology and quickly took over. Free Trade (in theory) is fantastic if you are operating with an equal partner (IE: Canada) on a level playing field. But when you are dealing with countries that are looking to exploit you for their own good and use our generosity and kindness against us it all comes tumbling down. I beleive we can see the results of these policies right now.

As I've posted in the past, tariffs, while politically popular, negatively impact consumers in the long run. Protectionist policies (e.g. tariffs, quotas, etc. are not the way to go; if the US wishes to become more competitive, we need to regulate less and tax less.

[1 Bad Merc]

As I've posted in the past, tariffs, while politically popular, negatively impact consumers in the long run. Protectionist policies (e.g. tariffs, quotas, etc. are not the way to go; if the US wishes to become more competitive, we need to regulate less and tax less.

I understand again what you are saying but you are forgetting that we as consumers are already paying these higher costs on the backend through welfare programs, higher taxes and unemployment. I would rather pay these costs on the frontend by choice via tariffs and the products that I buy then to be forced to pay on the backend.

We are bleeding high paying jobs at an unheard of rate and replacing them with lower paying jobs which equates to lost tax revenue. The wealth and money of this country is pouring out faster then the water from a busted dike on the Mississippi river.

Just saw a special on the Huffington post were China has recently built (last 10 years) 20 major cities to house an estimated 1.5 million citizens each at a cost of 190 Billion dollars. They are calling them ghost cities because the average population of these cities right now is only 31,000 people! We cant even fix the streets or the bridges in the City of Chicago but China can build huge ghost cities. I wonder how China has that kind of money available and were is it coming from? I think we all know that answer. Just my .02.

[Bigdogjim]

One very simple way to save a TON of money is by having a "line item veto" this allows the sitting President to sign a bill but cut out the pork.

Way too many bill are signed into law and the pork rides along.

[CBT]

I understand again what you are saying but you are forgetting that we as consumers are already paying these higher costs on the backend through welfare programs, higher taxes and unemployment. I would rather pay these costs on the frontend by choice via tariffs and the products that I buy then to be forced to pay on the backend.

We are bleeding high paying jobs at an unheard of rate and replacing them with lower paying jobs which equates to lost tax revenue. The wealth and money of this country is pouring out like a busted dike on the Mississippi river.

Just saw a special on the Huffington post were China has recently built (last 10 years) 20 major cities to house an estimated 1.5 million citizens each at a cost of 190 Billion dollars. They are calling them ghost cities because the average population of these cities right now is only 31,000 people! We cant even fix the streets or the bridges in the City of Chicago but China can build huge ghost cities. I wonder how China has that kind of money available and were is it coming from? I think we all know that answer. Just my .02.

I did a report on them in my Economics class. People's jaws actually dropped from my report, especially the satellite photos. China expects to become a world superpower especially when it comes to producing goods to export, and built the cities for 2 reasons: House workers they are going to pull away from farming, and to house workers from anywhere in the world who have no jobs because they've all been outsourced to China. Yeah, I can see America just becoming a vacation destination for all the Chinese workers once our economy REALLY tanks and we all move there for jobs.

[PonyUP]

I did a report on them in my Economics class. People's jaws actually dropped from my report, especially the satellite photos. China expects to become a world superpower especially when it comes to producing goods to export, and built the cities for 2 reasons: House workers they are going to pull away from farming, and to house workers from anywhere in the world who have no jobs because they've all been outsourced to China. Yeah, I can see America just becoming a vacation destination for all the Chinese workers once our economy REALLY tanks and we all move there for jobs.

Just reading about these ghost cities in this thread caused my jaw to drop. Of cousre China has the benefit of not having to elect officials so they dont get bogged down in typical politician BS, but thats pretty forward thinking and pretty scary if it comes to full fruition.

[Bigdogjim]

While people talk of China as some giant to be feared remember to look at their eco mess. They have dried up one of the largest rivers in the world and displaced millions of poor farmers.
With the spread of the internet the "little" people of china now have a voice.

You can only live behind the Wall for so long. It is not the great land of l "milk and honey" there.

[PonyUP]

While people talk of China as some giant to be feared remember to look at their eco mess. They have dried up one of the largest rivers in the world and displaced millions of poor farmers.
With the spread of the internet the "little" people of china now have a voice.

You can only live behind the Wall for so long. It is not the great land of l "milk and honey" there.

No, definitely not the dream paradise, but it is the great land of US enterprise or least they are growing towards that

[1 Bad Merc]

It is very scary when you think about it.....you might actually have to move to China (when your company moves) and work in that ecomess to survive. I wonder how soon Chinese becomes the new International Trade language?

There is that pesky free trade playing field again - China =ecomess -not alot of goverment regulations or management > USA = EPA-really nice land but alot of extra costs, rules and regulations. Major advantage = China.

But I agree with Rex's opinion that the Government regulators are out of control. They have gone way overboard in there mandates and we need some type of relief from them.

Actually everyone here has been right on with there suggestions and ideas as I believe it will take all of them and more to turn our country around. I am glad I am not alone in my worries for this country!

[SC Cheesehead]

I understand again what you are saying but you are forgetting that we as consumers are already paying these higher costs on the backend through welfare programs, higher taxes and unemployment. I would rather pay these costs on the frontend by choice via tariffs and the products that I buy then to be forced to pay on the backend.

We are bleeding high paying jobs at an unheard of rate and replacing them with lower paying jobs which equates to lost tax revenue. The wealth and money of this country is pouring out faster then the water from a busted dike on the Mississippi river.

Just saw a special on the Huffington post were China has recently built (last 10 years) 20 major cities to house an estimated 1.5 million citizens each at a cost of 190 Billion dollars. They are calling them ghost cities because the average population of these cities right now is only 31,000 people! We cant even fix the streets or the bridges in the City of Chicago but China can build huge ghost cities. I wonder how China has that kind of money available and were is it coming from? I think we all know that answer. Just my .02.

I fully agree with you, and again, what we need to do to stop the flow of manufacturing out of the US is to make the US more competitive by making it cheaper and ls restrictive to do business here, not charge more for goods coming into our country. Companies aren't off-shoring production for the heck of it, they're doing it because it's more cost effective.

If US-produced steel sells for, say, $750 a ton, and a foreign producer will sell a ton for $650, a durable goods item that uses a ton of steel will cost the secondary producer between $650 and $750 in raw materials. The sale price of that durable good will be determined by other costs of manufacturing, overhead, and profit margin which we'll assume to be $500.

The item produced from US steel will cost the consumer $1,250. The same item produced from foreign made steel will cost $1,150.

Given the above example, what makes more sense, to reduce the cost of producing US steel by lowering things like the corporate tax rate and the cost of regulatory compliance or place a tariff on foreign-produced steel?

If you place a tariff of $100 per ton on foreign produced steel, that cost will ultimately be passed along to consumers, and there is no guarantee that the tariff will generate higher consumption of US steel; the only thing it will guarantee is that ultimately, the consumer will pay a higher cost for the item, no matter whose steel its made from.

On the other hand, reducing the cost to produce US steel may put US producers in a more competitive position with foreign producers thus increasing demand for US steel, and if US and foreign produced steel are competitively priced, the end cost of goods to the US consumer will be lower, regardless of point of origin for the raw material used to produce it.

The above is a highly simplified example, but it points out the basic economic dynamics that are in play. End point I again make is that economic growth is more likely to occur by putting US manufacturers in a more competitive position by reducing the non-value-added cost of doing business than by adopting a protectionist position and artificially raising the cost of foreign competitors through tariffs.

[PonyUP]

But I agree with Rex's opinion that the Government regulators are out of control. They have gone way overboard in there mandates and we need some type of relief from them.

Actually everyone here has been right on with there suggestions and ideas as I believe it will take all of them and more to turn our country around. I am glad I am not alone in my worries for this country!


+15 Trillion there, we need regulators for the regulators :beer:

[1 Bad Merc]

I fully agree with you, and again, what we need to do to stop the flow of manufacturing out of the US is to make the US more competitive by making it cheaper and ls restrictive to do business here, not charge more for goods coming into our country. Companies aren't off-shoring production for the heck of it, they're doing it because it's more cost effective.

If US-produced steel sells for, say, $750 a ton, and a foreign producer will sell a ton for $650, a durable goods item that uses a ton of steel will cost the secondary producer between $650 and $750 in raw materials. The sale price of that durable good will be determined by other costs of manufacturing, overhead, and profit margin which we'll assume to be $500.

The item produced from US steel will cost the consumer $1,250. The same item produced from foreign made steel will cost $1,150.

Given the above example, what makes more sense, to reduce the cost of producing US steel by lowering things like the corporate tax rate and the cost of regulatory compliance or place a tariff on foreign-produced steel?

If you place a tariff of $100 per ton on foreign produced steel, that cost will ultimately be passed along to consumers, and there is no guarantee that the tariff will generate higher consumption of US steel; the only thing it will guarantee is that ultimately, the consumer will pay a higher cost for the item, no matter whose steel its made from.

On the other hand, reducing the cost to produce US steel may put US producers in a more competitive position with foreign producers thus increasing demand for US steel, and if US and foreign produced steel are competitively priced, the end cost of goods to the US consumer will be lower, regardless of point of origin for the raw material used to produce it.

The above is a highly simplified example, but it points out the basic economic dynamics that are in play. End point I again make is that economic growth is more likely to occur by putting US manufacturers in a more competitive position by reducing the non-value-added cost of doing business than by adopting a protectionist position and artificially raising the cost of foreign competitors through tariffs.

That is a great example Rex and I agree with most of it. The problem comes in when most people here in the US are used to a certain level/standard of living. They have been raised and sold on the idea that the big smoky smokestack on the horizon is a bad thing. That pouring stuff into the water is a bad thing and that digging big holes in the ground is also bad. No one here in the US wants that type of industry near their houses or in the "Pristine Wilderness Environment" because it might disturb the deer or harm the Polar bears or desert cactie (sp). Our children have been raised on this stuff as it has been taught in our schools thru global warming, Sierra Club, Global Green, Etc., Etc. So in terms of reality -lifting all the EPA regulations to allow us to be competitive in the world manufacturing marketplace is not going to happen. The next generation of Americans are not going to give up easily on these ideas -pounded into there heads in school/TV/ government- and are going to try and out-technology everyone else....in the mean time our country is going to get washed away and our wealth siphoned off to the up and coming under-developed countries that our own companies are exploiting for cheap labor and profits. They then sell us more useless crap all the while their commercials tell us how happy we should be that we got it so cheap!

Do you think the average worker in China, India or Malaysia gives a rats ass about some deer? Their only concern is whether or not it is edible and where there next meal is coming from. Do these Countries give a **** about the environment, their own workers (healthcare costs, pensions, unemployment insurance) or if they are displacing poor American workers? These countries are stepping on our backs to get ahead and when they are on top do you think they are going to help us up?

There is no way we can compete on a level playing field with countries that dont have the same standards of living or even interest in human life like we do. That is the sad fact of life that nobody seems to want to address or acknowledge. It is an all out economic war out there and if we dont protect ourselves very soon we are going to get gobbled up real quick.

[PonyUP]

That is a great example Rex and I agree with most of it. The problem comes in when most people here in the US are used to a certain level/standard of living. They have been raised and sold on the idea that the big smoky smokestack on the horizon is a bad thing. That pouring stuff into the water is a bad thing and that digging big holes in the ground is also bad. No one here in the US wants that type of industry near their houses or in the "Pristine Wilderness Environment" because it might disturb the deer or harm the Polar bears or desert cactie (sp). Our children have been raised on this stuff as it has been taught in our schools thru global warming, Sierra Club, Global Green, Etc., Etc.
.

Which is why if we take states we aren't using with an enormous amount of empty land (Nevada, Arizona, Wyoming, Nebraska, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Iowa and restrict it all there, then I can be happy in Georgia with lower taxes, lower gas, and cheaper products :lol:

[1 Bad Merc]

Which is why if we take states we aren't using with an enormous amount of empty land (Nevada, Arizona, Wyoming, Nebraska, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Iowa and restrict it all there, then I can be happy in Georgia with lower taxes, lower gas, and cheaper products :lol:

Nice...I will tell them about this great new place for the Nuclear Repository that they stopped building in the desert-that would be close to the ocean and that has lower labor costs........:D

[PonyUP]

Nice...I will tell them about this great new place for the Nuclear Repository that they stopped building in the desert-that would be close to the ocean and that has lower labor costs........:D

:lol: Absolutely, I believe the site in South Carolina, the neighbor their has a Blue :lol:

[1 Bad Merc]

I did not mean to be so negative in my posts but people need to wake up and realize that these other countries are trying to economically bury us. The sad part is we sorta realize the danger but cant get together to figure out how to stop it. Okay.....enough of my soapbox -....let's continue on replacing politicians :)

[1 Bad Merc]

:lol: Absolutely, I believe the site in South Carolina, the neighbor their has a Blue :lol:

Well thank God that I have a SB -not the slowest (DTR) Marauder out there so I should be able to get out in time :banana:

[PonyUP]

I did not mean to be so negative in my posts but people need to wake up and realize that these other countries are trying to economically bury us. The sad part is we sorta realize the danger but cant get together to figure out how to stop it.

I didn't read your posts as negative at all merc, it's been good conversation about some serious trouble facing our nation. I think a large part of the difference, using China as an example,is the number of people involved in making these decisions is miniscule compared to our set up. we have nearly one thousand people involved in making every day decisions that effect billions, in China that decision process is streamlined.

Our politicians are in it for themselves and don't truly have a desire to serve those that make this country, which is us. If they truly did everything with our best interests in mind as opposed to their own, the world would be a much different place.

[1 Bad Merc]

What's so nice about this site is you can tell we have alot of people who really care about this country.... we all have some different ideas and dont always agree on what needs to happen but we give each other the mutual respect that is deserved and that's what makes me proud to be a poster here.

[PonyUP]

What's so nice about this site is you can tell we have alot of people who really care about this country.... we all have some different ideas and dont always agree on what needs to happen but we all give each other the mutual respect that is deserved and that's what makes me proud to be a poster here.

+ Infinity there, we may ahve differing views across the board, but we have respect for everyone's opinion and in the end we all have one great thing in common, the Marauder :beer:

[1 Bad Merc]

Aw Right.....it's killing me to wait around for Casey to reply so here it goes :

"THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!"

[SC Cheesehead]

That is a great example Rex and I agree with most of it. The problem comes in when most people here in the US are used to a certain level/standard of living. They have been raised and sold on the idea that the big smoky smokestack on the horizon is a bad thing. That pouring stuff into the water is a bad thing and that digging big holes in the ground is also bad. No one here in the US wants that type of industry near their houses or in the "Pristine Wilderness Environment" because it might disturb the deer or harm the Polar bears or desert cactie (sp). Our children have been raised on this stuff as it has been taught in our schools thru global warming, Sierra Club, Global Green, Etc., Etc. So in terms of reality -lifting all the EPA regulations to allow us to be competitive in the world manufacturing marketplace is not going to happen. The next generation of Americans are not going to give up easily on these ideas -pounded into there heads in school/TV/ government- and are going to try and out-technology everyone else....in the mean time our country is going to get washed away and our wealth siphoned off to the up and coming under-developed countries that our own companies are exploiting for cheap labor and profits. They then sell us more useless crap all the while their commercials tell us how happy we should be that we got it so cheap!

Do you think the average worker in China, India or Malaysia gives a rats ass about some deer? Their only concern is whether or not it is edible and where there next meal is coming from. Do these Countries give a **** about the environment, their own workers (healthcare costs, pensions, unemployment insurance) or if they are displacing poor American workers? These countries are stepping on our backs to get ahead and when they are on top do you think they are going to help us up?

There is no way we can compete on a level playing field with countries that dont have the same standards of living or even interest in human life like we do. That is the sad fact of life that nobody seems to want to address or acknowledge. It is an all out economic war out there and if we dont protect ourselves very soon we are going to get gobbled up real quick.

Agree 100%, nor should they all be lifted. What I'm referring to are some of the totally assinine regulations that have been enacted. I'll give you an example of one from my former industy, iron foundries.

Foundries have not been proactive models for either safety or environmental issues in the past, but really started to get their acts together in the mid-to-late 80's. Over the past 20 years, they've been hit very hard with double whammy: Off-shore competition and increasing federal regulations, resulting in a subtantial shrinkage in US foundry operations (down from over 3,000 plants to around 500 or so, current day). One onerous environmental issue that has been under contention for the past 10-15 years relates to silica sand (used in the greensand molding process). Silica sand (often referred to as bank sand) is a common substance, found on pristine beaches all over the world, our kids play in it at the beach, and we put it in their sandboxes at home.

Silica, by and of itself is considered carcinogenic; however, silica, in sand, has a tightly bonded, granular-crystline structure that is not easily broken down, even after repeated re-use (it may fracture into tinier pieces, but it won't break down chemically).

That not witstanding, some lightbulb in the EPA has determined that silica sand, because it contains SILICA, must ALSO be carcenogenic, therefore, it should be considered a hazardous material, handled in a controlled manner, with all sorts of :bs: documentation created to track it, and hazardous landfills developed to hold spent material.

Now re-read what I wrote above. Our kids play in it, it's darn near everywhere in natural form; but if it gets used by a foundry, it somehow magically becomes a hazardous material that costs that industry hundreds of thousands of non-value-added dollars to dispose of when it gets too fine to use in the modling process. That's money that could be spent to modernize plants to improve our competitiveness with off-shore suppliers.

Stuff like THAT ^^^^ is the kind of regulatory garbage that is slowly but surely killing our manufacturing base here in the US.

BTW, before the development of the current EPA regulations, spent foundry sand was typically a beneficial re-use product for lining road beds, a desirable concrete additive, and ironically, sought out as a capping material for municipal landfills. Now foundries have to pay beaucoup bucks in tipping fees to take it to fill up landfills... :rolleyes:

[1 Bad Merc]

That's some crazy stuff their REX! That's the government either taking care of it's own or paying back to some lobbyist or company (who donated millions) that just happens to own the special landfill or has the license to issue the hazardous paperwork. Someone was getting paid back on that deal.

I remember when I worked in Transportation I sent 20 X 40' High Cube containers of a certain type of sand to Saudi Arabia that had silica in it so they could make Glass Windshields!

To bad we could not send them your silica sand :)

[kernie]

Good luck wrestling lobsters and steaks from someone who deserves them for free and is so used to it they will fight for it to keep it. I'm sure some Liberal ****tard can actually spend quality time defending these actions. Libs and Democrats, two groups of people who would rather spend YOUR money trying to convice you that it's possible to grab the clean end of a pile of **** than to just stop people from getting **** on in the first place. Feels like Monday around here because this thread is depressing and pissing me off at the same time, just like Mondays. I'm going to go home and hug my American flag and then go do burnouts out of frustration at not being able to make any change I can believe in.

Feeling better now?

[SC Cheesehead]

Feeling better now?

kernie,

http://www.scribbler.co.uk/images/_lib/who-loves-ya-baby-love-you-cards-80000302-0-1258736166000.jpg
:D :D :D :D :D

Avatar sig is great! :lol:

[CBT]

It is very scary when you think about it.....you might actually have to move to China (when your company moves) and work in that ecomess to survive. I wonder how soon Chinese becomes the new International Trade language?

I don't know if that will ever happen, even the official language of the European Union is English, and they have something like 21 countries with 400 individual dialects. Now that may be different when we integrate with Canada and Mexico to become the North American Union, we will probably all be speaking Spanish. "El cutto your grasso, you rich Chinese bastardo?"

[1 Bad Merc]

I don't know if that will ever happen, even the official language of the European Union is English, and they have something like 21 countries with 400 individual dialects. Now that may be different when we integrate with Canada and Mexico to become the North American Union, we will probably all be speaking Spanish. "El cutto your grasso, you rich Chinese bastardo?"

Oh my God -dude I just killed another keyboard :nworthy:

Me llamo Bad Merco! Yo tengo mucho hombre es ratto! ES sparro un gasolino, Chinese bastardo?:burnout:

[PonyUP]

Oh my God -dude I just killed another keyboard :nworthy:

Me llamo Bad Merco! Yo tengo mucho hombre es ratto! ES sparro un gasolino, Chinese bastardo?:burnout:

Yo tengo mucho cajones, necessito you Chinese Bastardo dinero para autobus ticketo, nada petro

[CBT]

No mi gusto lavos platos :mad:

[PonyUP]

Escucha aquí Bastardo chinos. Ahora que hemos prestado nuestro camino hacia la deuda tanto, y vuestros asnos arroz frito amor se han apoderado de nuestro país, tengo que pedir un empleo. Aquí están mis calificaciones, puedo cagar en un cubo sin temor a que arrastra una copia de seguridad porque hay un público, me gusta la espuma en el aceite de los hombres y darles backrubs extrañamente incómoda, y yo no soy tímido para tirar de un Caradine David. ¿Puedes ayudarme?

Guspech 350 también conocido como Joe

Recommend link for bi lingual challenged

http://translate.google.com/#auto|es|

[Bigdogjim]

OK! Spanish hour is over:rolleyes: Back to english:)

Back to welfare now. In the news a man from Mi. won $$@ million in the lottery and took a cash payment and bought a house and used Audi, invested the rest and get's $5,000. a year from the investments.

Since hs fall below income guildlines he still gets welfare payments?:confused:

Lawmakers have been working 2-3 months to close the LOOPHOLE!:mad2:

[CBT]

Yeah Brad, you lost me that time. I speak 2 languages fluently and Spanish isn't one of them. English and Sarcasm are the only two I ever needed to know to get by.

[PonyUP]

Yeah Brad, you lost me that time. I speak 2 languages fluently and Spanish isn't one of them. English and Sarcasm are the only two I ever needed to know to get by.

Copy and paste it in google translate, how do you think I wrote

[CBT]

Copy and paste it in google translate, how do you think I wrote

....oh snap....time to write song parodies in Spaneesh!!

[PonyUP]

OK! Spanish hour is over:rolleyes: Back to english:)

Back to welfare now. In the news a man from Mi. won $$@ million in the lottery and took a cash payment and bought a house and used Audi, invested the rest and get's $5,000. a year from the investments.

Since hs fall below income guildlines he still gets welfare payments?:confused:

Lawmakers have been working 2-3 months to close the LOOPHOLE!:mad2:

Damn, that's jacked. I saw a post in another thread about an adult fatty who is obsessed with pretending he is a baby, he's girlfriend takes on the mother role feeding him a bottle and such. He has even built an adult crib, dude is drawing disability SSI money. :mad2:

[PonyUP]

....oh snap....time to write song parodies in Spaneesh!!

Love it, new thread alert Woot Woot :D