New GTO spec's

[MERCMAN]

Looks like the MM MIGHT have some competition!!!

http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/d/pontiac04gto/coupe/trim_specs.html?content=specs&refsrc=autos/trim_specs:mad2:

[Ross]

Competition? That thing is in the Compact class. The MM is a REAL car!

[BigMerc '03]

pontiac got my vote im trading my big merc for a goat ! :D

[TAF]

I finally saw one in person last Friday at the Peach Bowl Fanfest...everything is good on it...'cept the looks of it...it looks like a Pontiac Grand Prix, Grand Am, Bonneville...in other words it just looked like all of their other ugly cars. The Rep I spoke with was even a little apologetic about the looks of it...which I found interesting. He said it would "blow the doors off a Mercury Marauder"...I asked him when and where he wanted to meet.

[bryanknie]

With 350hp and being a smaller car, it should blow the doors off of our stock MM's

[TAF]

Originally posted by bryanknie
With 350hp and being a smaller car, it should blow the doors off of our stock MM's

I'd run 'em...I'm *cough* stock...

[bryanknie]

I would run him too.....nothing wrong with a little fun.

Now one of you guys with the "stock" off the shelf supercharger lining up next to him is what I would like to see.

[duhtroll]

I thought these new Goats were 13.5 in the 1/4 stock - so even with everything done on a MM up to the SC we would be hard pressed to stay with one.

I certainly plan to *try* but I don't expect to do more than be very very close to GTO performance unless I get a SC.

They are in a different class - it's like trying to race a 'vette with a MM. The priceless part is the look on their face when you stay with them. Don't expect to beat them by much if any though.

(and I am one who would REALLY like to smoke GTOs, but I don't think that's possible without SC'ing.)

Of course, then the GTO driver must really know how to handle the 6-speed, so here in IA I should be OK . . . :)

Thanks,
-A

[TAF]

We have N/A Marauders running 13.5.

Net/Net....it wouldn't "blow the doors off"....and my Marauder gets MANY more appreciative looks than that thing.

[O's Fan Rich]

I'll wait for the new Mustang , as long as SVT gets to tweak it. Man, I love that car's looks.
Yes, I'm keeping the MM!

[TAF]

Originally posted by Rich_Long
I'll wait for the new Mustang , as long as SVT gets to tweak it. Man, I love that car's looks.
Yes, I'm keeping the MM!

Now THAT^^^ is a more fair comparison...performance/weight wise.

[Bigdogjim]

What is the price of new GTO???

[TAF]

Originally posted by Bigdogjim
What is the price of new GTO???

I fixed the link, Jim. It says Retail $31.8K HERE (http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/d/pontiac04gto/coupe/trim_specs.html?content=specs&refsrc=autos/trim_specs)

[duhtroll]

That's just it. I'm gonna be pissed if I ever lose to a GTO, so I am making sure to have stages I-III done by this summer sometime. If anyone in a goat challenges me, I will at least stay with them.

Now I just have to decide if the torque converter is worth the money.

But that's another thread. :)

-A

[greyghost]

Thereb is nalways a faster car or truck out there. How would you like to get spanked by a diesel pickup. my son had an 02 GMC Duramax/Allison that would run in the low 13s. It embarassed a lot of guys with supposedly high perf. metal on the street.

I think the MM is a great ride and with a little work can hold its own with all but the hard core modified iron thats out there.

I wonder what a 5.4, 32V, S/C 15-20 PSI) MM would do with the suspension tweeked and everything a go. I wonder how low in the 11s it would go. Maybe high 10s??

Shoot, I am really impressed with the little 4.6. Who would have ever thought I would be tickled to death to be driving a Ford Product?? I have been a GM person for 43 yrs but, I love my MM and plan on stomping a lot of my old Gen. Mtrs. buddys. Eventually I will get beat but by something that has a lot mo0re in it than I do.

Anyone out there running nitrogen in their tires??

[03SILVERSTREAK]

Where is It Built? " Australia ? "

[RCSignals]

Australia, yes. On an old Opel platform. And to think they make fun of the Panther platform

[jgc61sr2002]

At the Holden Plant which also produces the Monaro. The plant will run 24 hours a day with one shift allotted to the GTO.

[REpson]

Fellas,

I seen the new GTO and I'm not impressed w/the looks at all. However I do like the instrument panel. It's pretty cool.

Now when I get my 4.10 Gear, New Chip & Super Charger installed later this summer, I will try one of those GTO's.

I'm sure that I will be able to keep up w/ them if not slightly ahead. :-)

[Haggis]

Welcome to the board REpson, and good luck against the GTO. I am already gunning for one.

[REpson]

Haggis,

Are you going to give up your MM? That was my impression when I read your last note that you responded to in our discussion.

Now if you're planning on racing one of those GTO guys, indeed let me know the results. I want to know exactly what I'm up againist.

I might have to break out w/ my 93 Cobra if the MM can't handle that puppy.

:-)

[Haggis]

Originally posted by REpson
Haggis,

Are you going to give up your MM? That was my impression when I read your last note that you responded to in our discussion.

Now if you're planning on racing one of those GTO guys, indeed let me know the results. I want to know exactly what I'm up againist.

I might have to break out w/ my 93 Cobra if the MM can't handle that puppy.

:-)

What are you kidding :eek: for one of those misnamed disgraced vehicles that dare carry the name GTO. :puke:

Not only do I plan on racing it, I hope to embarrass the driver to take it back to the dealer for a refund and go out and buy a real American/Candian car.

[junehhan]

Damnit.........


I was hoping to be able to last a little bit without doing anything to void the warranty, but it's just so darn tempting. You have no idea how tempted i've been to order the Trilogy kit(love Eaton roots type blowers), but especially since i've purchased the 6/100k extended warranty, i've been trying to resist such temptations...........

The new GTO might be fast, but I agree that it does not deserve to carry the GTO name as it looks like a rental car, if anything.............

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by junehhan
The new GTO might be fast, but I agree that it does not deserve to carry the GTO name as it looks like a rental car, if anything.............

AHHHHHHHH!!! I'M SO CONFLICTED!

On one hand, junehhan is right; Pontiac styling has long been a joke, and they ARE in fact the "rental car kings"...on the other hand, I've actually driven real Australian cars from Ford and Holden and they are NOT slouches, in either power or handling. They build their own straight 6 over there that is a VERY nice motor, while they import V6s and V8s from America, so the Gen III 5.7 that's in the new Goat is essentially the same engine here and there...in short, while the new GTO may be ugly and not deserving of the name, it will not be a ricer, either...not by a long shot.

[Haggis]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
AHHHHHHHH!!! I'M SO CONFLICTED!

On one hand, junehhan is right; Pontiac styling has long been a joke, and they ARE in fact the "rental car kings"...on the other hand, I've actually driven real Australian cars from Ford and Holden and they are NOT slouches, in either power or handling. They build their own straight 6 over there that is a VERY nice motor, while they import V6s and V8s from America, so the Gen III 5.7 that's in the new Goat is essentially the same engine here and there...in short, while the new GTO may be ugly and not deserving of the name, it will not be a ricer, either...not by a long shot.

How true RF, it was just that in the begining I was so happy when I heard the GTO was coming back and then they say here it is and I was so disappointed. :alone: Yes true it might be a RWD car and have a good engine, but why did they have to make it so damn Ricer looking. URGH. :mad2:

[duhtroll]

I was holding out for the new Goat. Then I saw what it looked like and *within 24 hours* had decided on a MM.

I don't care how fast it is. It might beat me (and that is a MIGHT considering the mods I will have in place when and if I ever get to race one) but I could not live with myself if I bought a car that was that homely.

It's not ugly. It's fugly. Sorry, Fugly, with a capital 'F'.

-A

[woaface]

They do around the low 5s 0-60mph. A supercharged Marauder with decent upgrades past that wouldn't have too much trouble...

[jgc61sr2002]

REPson - Welcome to the MM site. Have you or are you about to purchase a Marauder. The site has all the info you need to know.:D

[RCSignals]

RF, to listen to GM you'd think this is a "special" engine in the GTO because the standard Aus fare wasn't enough. I've been told the GTO engine is actually detuned from what is available in Australia

[SHERIFF]

Here's some on eBay... with great pictures.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=2453493749

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=2452558100

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=2453463062

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=2452875755

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=2453348525

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=2452895691

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=2451808905

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7244&item=2452246211

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RCSignals
I've been told the GTO engine is actually detuned from what is available in Australia


Not detuned... REtuned.

I believe they tried to shift the torque curve around a bit (downward on the RPM scale), if I believe some of the Pontiac enthusiast magazines.

Comparing the 97+ LS1 with the previous LT1, the first thing most people notice is a supposed lack of low low low end torque. I say supposed because I've never compared them back to back (I rarely if ever borrow others' cars anymore) but it's supposed to be in the idle-to-1600 RPM region. On the other side of the coin, the LS1 outbreathes the LT1 by a long shot, VERY visible when comparing dyno curves (even between my stock LS1 and a mildly modified LT1). And even though by 2000 RPM the LS1 is still out-torquing the LT1, it's that sharp climb in the 'teens that gives the impression of a 'soft' bottom end.

Put my LS1 in 1st gear, take it up to 1500 RPM then stand on it, the car will get up and go. Pull the car up to 3500 RPM in 1st gear and do the same... the rear end will fishtail wildly and out of control. This is why the LS1 F-bodies with 4-speed automatics went with a slightly higher stall speed... to address the different low end response of the LS1.

So for the GTO, they wanted to give it the BillyGman treatment... tirespin from a complete stop by just standing on it, for both automatics and manuals. I don't know how much top end they had to sacrifice to get this bottom end boost, but if they can still pull the kinds of hp numbers the GTO is quoting, that kind of says something for what the plain "top end" LS1s are really pulling (ie. way over 350 hp).

They also retuned the exhaust (hence the funky dual-tuned exhaust paths). They supposedly wanted to give it the old Pontiac sound. I was given a ride in a gold Special Edition 1978 Trans Am (220 hp 400 + 4 speed) while in Dayton Ohio for the T/A nationals in August 2002, and I could swear my uncorked LS1 has "classic Pontiac iron" written all over it!

[woaface]

IMO that car is boring in the front, and the steering wheel looks real stupid, fat in the middle and skinny from there on out. Other than that, I'd buy it!

[woaface]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
Not detuned... REtuned.

I believe they tried to shift the torque curve around a bit (downward on the RPM scale), if I believe some of the Pontiac enthusiast magazines.

Comparing the 97+ LS1 with the previous LT1, the first thing most people notice is a supposed lack of low low low end torque. I say supposed because I've never compared them back to back (I rarely if ever borrow others' cars anymore) but it's supposed to be in the idle-to-1600 RPM region. On the other side of the coin, the LS1 outbreathes the LT1 by a long shot, VERY visible when comparing dyno curves (even between my stock LS1 and a mildly modified LT1). And even though by 2000 RPM the LS1 is still out-torquing the LT1, it's that sharp climb in the 'teens that gives the impression of a 'soft' bottom end.

Put my LS1 in 1st gear, take it up to 1500 RPM then stand on it, the car will get up and go. Pull the car up to 3500 RPM in 1st gear and do the same... the rear end will fishtail wildly and out of control. This is why the LS1 F-bodies with 4-speed automatics went with a slightly higher stall speed... to address the different low end response of the LS1.

So for the GTO, they wanted to give it the BillyGman treatment... tirespin from a complete stop by just standing on it, for both automatics and manuals. I don't know how much top end they had to sacrifice to blah blah blah blah blah....

TTA always has something great to add! I just give yous the straight up!:D

[RCSignals]

TTA,

Retuned is an interesting perspective. I had been told "detuned" from the Australian offering

From what I've read the only reason the exhaust is routed the way it is, is because of the repositioning of the fuel tank. GM explaining it as being for sound reasons would be par for the course.

I saw them testing a GTO on Car+Driver TV. They most definitely had their foot on the brake to start it wheel spinning, then eased up to let it slowly creep forward with the wheel spin. I didn't think brake torquing was supposed to be necessary for that car. Maybe it was just to keep the spin up.

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by SHERIFF
Here's some on eBay... with great pictures.....



Black isn't bad, but in silver it's plain "insipid"
that Red/red is too much red!

$34,000 - $35,000. They're kidding.......makes the Marauder a real steal even at MSRP

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RCSignals
From what I've read the only reason the exhaust is routed the way it is, is because of the repositioning of the fuel tank. GM explaining it as being for sound reasons would be par for the course.



Well, marketing crap has to be taken for what it's worth... ie. not much. But this exhaust sound tuning info came from magazine sources, from folks like Jim Wangers who consulted on the project but in reality didn't have much say in the final product (I'm pretty sure he's not entirely happy with the visual side of the package, but seems QUITE happy with the mechanical side, it seems).

The reality is that modern engines just don't have all that great an exhaust note without extra tuning (Sarge will probably agree, having heard his 4.6l uncorked). Tight consideration of efficiency issues means you can set aside the traditional exhaust note of old V8s (mostly due to their valvetrain layout and ignition firing order) in favour of better breathing and fuel consumption. The LS1 is quiet. Even uncorked as I've set mine up, the idle is still quieter than a fully muffled LT1, with only 4 cubic inches of difference in displacement. Now, above 2000 RPM it's Nascar city, but I was VERY disappointed with the quietness of my WS6 optional exhaust in factory configuration, that's how quiet the LS1 is by nature.

So in reference to the funky "two pipes down one side" approach with this new GTO, a single pipe would have done the trick, I'm sure, if tank considerations were what prevented a left-right dual pipe setup. The F-body is slightly ground-clearance-challenged, and one of the two branches of the 'Y-pipe' (the one under the driver) is visibly flattened from the factory, to maintain what should be an equivalent cross-sectional area to the pipe on the passenger's side. So running one pipe on the GTO would have been feasible, I'm sure. So this again seems to support the exhaust tuning claim of each pipe providing a different sound. (and having two different exhaust notes from either side of the car would have been odd-sounding, perhaps).




I saw them testing a GTO on Car+Driver TV. They most definitely had their foot on the brake to start it wheel spinning, then eased up to let it slowly creep forward with the wheel spin. I didn't think brake torquing was supposed to be necessary for that car. Maybe it was just to keep the spin up.


I suppose Car&Drivel has to provide eye candy for the viewing public, so smoky dramatic launches are the order of the day when reviewing such a car. I've read the GTO's version of the LS1 can smoke 'em very hard from a standing start (at idle!) just by laying into the pedal... that tells me they HAD to have done something to that engine's low low low end.

(and GM does NOT like to venture into the 2000+ range when it comes to converter stall RPM with their V8s... I'd be surprised if the LS1 automatic's converter flashes to 2000 RPM, period. Not to mention that you have no converter stalling to benefit from on a manual 6-speed with a not-so-great 1st gear (2.66, I think). )

I used to get jealous over the bottom end torque improvements GM saw fit to bless the LS1 with, first in 1999, then 2001 and now for the GTO. But with a manual in my WS6, the idle is 1000 RPM and I always keep the motor in the 1500-2000 range anyway, unless I'm trying to get a little frisky. So in perspective I'll just be happy with what I have... :up:

[SHERIFF]

Originally posted by RCSignals

$34,000 - $35,000. They're kidding.......makes the Marauder a real steal even at MSRP


I predict the G(as)T(ires)O(il) will follow the same path the Marauder did...... the first few units will sell for top dollar..... then they will be discounting them $4,000 and $5,000. :)

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
So in reference to the funky "two pipes down one side" approach with this new GTO, a single pipe would have done the trick, I'm sure, if tank considerations were what prevented a left-right dual pipe setup. The F-body is slightly ground-clearance-challenged, and one of the two branches of the 'Y-pipe' (the one under the driver) is visibly flattened from the factory, to maintain what should be an equivalent cross-sectional area to the pipe on the passenger's side. So running one pipe on the GTO would have been feasible, I'm sure. So this again seems to support the exhaust tuning claim of each pipe providing a different sound. (and having two different exhaust notes from either side of the car would have been odd-sounding, perhaps).

Interesting side note: I'm not sure if it's a regulatory thing, but EVERY car I saw in Australia had only a single exhaust. Some of the more performance-oriented cars had a much BIGGER single pipe than normal cars, including some old muscle I saw (like a '65 Mustang...looked very strange with right-hand drive, too!)...most of these cars sounded NICE, so it's certainly possible to make a good sound with only one pipe.

Hey, maybe GM should have put a single 4" pipe on the new GTO; they'd gave a guaranteed million-seller to the ricer crowd :rolleyes: ...

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
most of these cars sounded NICE, so it's certainly possible to make a good sound with only one pipe.


No doubt... if the engine sounds good to begin with.

My GTA has a pretty nice sound to it... very deep, hits you in the chest more than anything else. Sounds deeper than my 78 T/A with its bigger engine. But it's still a Y-pipe to single cat to single intermediate pipe to a dual outlet muffler. So for all intents and purposes, it's a single exhaust too.

But it seems that newer engines need fabricated exhaust notes. Drilling holes in your mufflers just doesn't cut it like it used. I still recall driving around the neighborhood with the Parisienne's exhaust lopped off at the cat (intermediate pipe rusted through)... absolute insanely mean, but try that on our 4.6l: it's a bigger difference than can be attributed to a simple .4 liters of displacement difference with my 5.0l Parisienne.

My WS6 has the same layout as the GTA, albeit with 2 cats so the Y-pipe comes AFTER the cats, and a single outlet muffler. I fabbed an additional unmuffled outlet to fill in the void in the passenger's side bumper cutout (stupid design, 1998-only). MUCH better, but there's still an ugly "click" to the exhaust in the 1500 RPM region, on the overrun. I wouldn't be surprised that they had to resort to two 'tuned' exhaust pipes resonating in different ways to achieve a satisfactory 'musclecar' exhaust note from an LS1, while meeting federal standards. (my uncorked setup may sound worlds better than the factory setup above 1600 RPM, but it certainly ain't meeting any standards, that's for sure...)

I have my theories on why modern efficient engines are more 'silent' than the older types... if anyone's interested I'll post one of them, but they will involve drawings of exhaust pulses and how they contribute to an exhaust 'note'.

BTW, interesting comment about the ricer exhaust and the new GTO... GM tried this a couple of years ago by "pre-ricing" the Cavaliers and Sunfires in an attempt to grab some of the youth market share of aftermarket (ie. tasteless) parts. I wonder how successful they were, thus far...

[RCSignals]

Well marketing crap and Jim Wangers are synonymous....

They could have gone with a single exhaust as you point out, but there is also a psychological factor for the car being sold in North America, No dual exhaust on the car would not go over well at all!
As RF points out, the single exhaust may have sounded just as good.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
...in an attempt to grab some of the youth market share of aftermarket (ie. tasteless) parts.

AH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHA....!!!!!