school budget cuts

[napolitano]

Here in central Florida there have been millions of dollars cut from the school budgets. Differing from county to county. Example, Pinelles county cut 9 million. That county is small compared to Polk county where I'm from. Last week the company I work for paved a parking lot for the school district at approximately 1600 tons of asphalt for a parking lot the size if 6 football fields. When we arrived that morning for the two day job, base was pumping bad. Meaning water was trapped in between the layers of muck they used for material. Our paver got stuck a dozen times. We had to pull it out with a loader every time. They wanted to continue to pave it. A representative for the district came on site and told our superintendent to just pave because next year it will be paved again. Asphalt, labor and the base work were probably between 750,000 to 1,000,000 dollars. The reason I was pissed off was because the districts spend money recklessly while laying of thousands of teachers, eliminating secretary positions and bargaining with the janitorial unions for less pay. My mothers position was eliminated at her school. Her boss also eliminated. She has a teaching degree and a psychology degree as well. No need for them I guess. They have worked for the district for 20 years. The big plan is that all the layoffs are put on a waiting list for jobs opening up from retirees. For now she will collect unemployment, live in my house and try to find an employer willing to hire a 50 year old woman. Sorry for venting. What is the education like in your areas. What are the budget cuts like your area. The way my mother explains the changes in the education system in the past twenty years is depressing. The worst part is she wants to do something about but her school was always limited with it's funding. By the way that parking lot we paved was at a bus depot where they store the school buses for the summer and drive them across the street to do maintenance on them for the summer. They were in such a hurry to finish before school let out. Personally I'd rather them park on the grass that was there and use the money to ultimately lessen class sizes so my nephew can actually finish a textbook before the end of the year. He says past two years they never even complete the books. Towards the end they are rushed to finals. I don't know anymore.

[napolitano]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-05-15/features/os-school-budget-cuts-20110515_1_school-year-principal-shaune-storch-seminole-county-schools

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/polk/school-seeks-donations-to-save-positions-05172011

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/teacher-layoffs-hit-fla.-counties-050611

Here are links to what is going on here. One county may have managed to avoid any layoffs. What they did was not spend their portion of the stimulus money and saved it for times like this while the other schools spent the stimulus money on their students and now have nothing. The lesser of two evils theory can't really apply in those two scenarios. I don't know what does.

[Mebot]

Ooo paragraphs are your friend! Break up that first post a little. Makes it easier to read!

[rayjay]

Seems like its nationwide. We are cutting here too in a very small district. They went bare bones and still had to lay off teachers. The one music teacher they kept due to seniority is hated by the students. For such a small M/HS they had a large, multy award winning marching band, not anymore, they have 10 kids left in it.... I was pro union my whole career, but if you can't do your job,....

[Bluerauder]

Ooo paragraphs are your friend! Break up that first post a little. Makes it easier to read!

+1 I agree.

No doubt there is alot of misuse of funds within the school systems. Our system here is always complaining that they don't have enough funds for teacher's salaries or classroom ratios (i.e. not hiring additional teachers). However, when they do get money it is invariably directed toward district administration and NOT the teachers or the classroom.

The Superindentent just had a huge "Taj Mahal" built for the district offices. It is a glass and steel structure with marble floors, cherry wood accents, interior atrium, glass offices overlooking the atrium, etc. Very nice; but certainly not necessary. They could have done with 1/2 the glitz.

Teachers here haven't had a pay raise in the last 3 years. However, the superintentent and his deputy superintendents get a 10% raise each year. The Supe makes $400,000 per year and gets a personal luxury car and a huge benefit package. He also get a retirement plan that "guarantees" that he can maintain a lavish lifestyle even if he reaches 100 years of age. It's in his contract. :rolleyes:

Recently, the school system decided to spent $5,000 each for new electronic sign boards outside each of the county's 70 schools. That's $350K that could have been put to much better use. Nothing wrong with the current signage.

I am surprised that your company continued with the job knowing that it would be a "junk" job. Who was responsible for the base preparation? Really doesn't matter because when the pavement begins to fail, they'll just remember who laid the asphalt. Hope your boss got the direction to overlay the crap base in writing. I find it disturbing that companies seem more than willing to do a 1/2 azz job and let someone else do it right later. That trend seems to grow every year.

Might have been better to go on record with the school board with your refusal to do a bad job on an inadequate base and why. Seems that the immediate loss of a $1,000,000 contract might not be worth the long term reputation of the company. JMHO.

[Ozark Marauder]

Here in Missouri they are cutting some of the education budget to pay for:

$24 million in the phase out of the state's franchise tax on businesses.

$34 million due to the failure to pass a bill setting up a state tax amnesty program.

$5 million in overspending by the state legislature.

$50 million to pay for southeastern Missouri flooding and the Joplin tornado.

http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=470697

Toward the end of this article are some sinister remarks by Amy Blouin, executive director of the Missouri Budget Project, a supposably non-partisan watch dog group who made the statement,

"She said the disasters also present the perfect opportunity for lawmakers to begin looking at ways to raise revenues through an increased cigarette tax, and/or the implementation of a streamlined sales tax on internet purchases."

Hmmm, never let a crisis go to waste.

A little background on Amy?

In researching Amy Blouins background, we find that her father was a Democratic Congressman from Iowa for four years in the 70's and recently ran for Governor there in 2006. You cannot tell me that her political views were not influenced by being raised in a Democratic legislators household.

Pretty much shows she is not to be trusted as a so-called budget expert but rather just another liberal activist using creative business names and the "grand notion" of non-partisanship to advance an ever-expanding government control and big tax and spend agenda.

[sailsmen]

Sorry to hear what's happening. The root cause is our economy is contracting due to the huge Debt it is carrying. Money that pays back Debt is DEAD MONEY, it does nothing but reduce the figure on a piece of paper.
The Public Debt of the Federal Gov't has doubled in less than 6 years. Gov't is spending 35% of every dollar in our Economy, leaving the private sector with 65%.
For every 6 private sector workers there is 1 Gov't worker. The Gov't spends $40,250 every year for every private sector worker. Our economy cannot grow with that type of overhead on the private sector.
Gov't spending does not generate wealth, it only reduces wealth by charging overhead for redistributing it. Like scouping a bucket of water out of a bathtub taking a sip and pouring it back in the bathtub. There is less water and it is becoming stagnant.
Those of us who where in the work place in the late 1970's know that you will survive well if you adapt.
Good Luck to you and your family.

[napolitano]

It seems to be bad everywhere. There were representatives present from the base company and the school district during the paving. They took plenty of pictures said to keep going to meet their deadline. Ultimately it will be repaved every year just in time for the school busses to park for the summer.

[SpartaPerformance]

Like you say in your 1st post money is spent wastefully. The United States spends the most per student and yet we fail compared to other nations in education level. The Democrat left wing nuts want to keep throwing money at the problem but it ends up going to paving over swamps like you stated. It all boils down to unions, political favors, corrupt politicians and unfortunately teachers and students get caught in the crossfire

[Bluerauder]

Like you say in your 1st post money is spent wastefully. The United States spends the most per student and yet we fail compared to other nations in education level. The Democrat left wing nuts want to keep throwing money at the problem but it ends up going to paving over swamps like you stated. It all boils down to unions, political favors, corrupt politicians and unfortunately teachers and students get caught in the crossfire

Per pupil spending varies greatly based on each state. >>>> http://www.epodunk.com/top10/per_pupil/index.html

In 2004, the District of Columbia (DC) was ranked #1 in per pupil spending at $13,187 per student. That number is now about $17,000. However, performance of DC students is at the rock bottom of any list of measures of performance. Obviously, more spending does not equate to student performance. DC teachers however are among the highest paid in the nation -- some don't even have to show up for work to get paid. So, results don't really matter either. DC schools are full of fraud and corruption. They just canned Chancellor Michelle Rhee this year (DC rates above a mere Superintendent). She was actually trying to do something about the problem. That didn't sit well with the slackers and the status quo in the DC system. So, Rhee was replaced. They are now #2 in spending and the schools are still sub-par.


New Jersey ranked third nationally in per-pupil spending on public education for the 2008-09 school year, again trailing New York and being surpassed by Washington, D.C., according to new statistics released by the U.S. Census Bureau this week.

New Jersey spent $16,271 per pupil that year, according to the Census Bureau's measurement. That was down from $16,491 a year earlier, according to the federal report. Statistics for these reports are always issued on a delay, in this case two years back.

New York spent $18,126, and D.C. spent $16,408, the latter reflecting a 12.4 percent increase. Alaska ($15,552) and Vermont (at $15,175) are next on the chart.

[sailsmen]

New Orleans went 2 decades maintaing a school infrastructure that had a 40% utilization rate. You could close every other school and still be with in walking distance.
Fortunately Katrina/Rita washed away the corrupt School Board, the Schools and the Union. The State took over and the schools have dramaticaly improved both the charter and non-charter are showing positive results.
Lots of convictions of the school board members including the President.:)

[Mr. Man]

Per pupil spending varies greatly based on each state. >>>> http://www.epodunk.com/top10/per_pupil/index.html

In 2004, the District of Columbia (DC) was ranked #1 in per pupil spending at $13,187 per student. That number is now about $17,000. However, performance of DC students is at the rock bottom of any list of measures of performance. Obviously, more spending does not equate to student performance. DC teachers however are among the highest paid in the nation -- some don't even have to show up for work to get paid. So, results don't really matter either. DC schools are full of fraud and corruption. They just canned Chancellor Michelle Rhee this year (DC rates above a mere Superintendent). She was actually trying to do something about the problem. That didn't sit well with the slackers and the status quo in the DC system. So, Rhee was replaced. They are now #2 in spending and the schools are still sub-par.

Iowa was ranked 27th in spending per pupil and Iowans are consistently rated as some of the most educated people in the U.S.A.. Just goes to show that spending a crap load of money on schools doesn't equate to an educated school population. Time to start thinking about how school districts that spend less money and get better educated kids accomplish this.

I think Joe Clark was on the right track in Patterson NJ many years ago but he stepped on to many toes and B of E ousted him. To bad because Patterson schools were really starting to improve, now they are back into the worst performing districts in NJ again. I feel bad for the kids that want to learn.

[napolitano]

I guess these problems are just not in my neck of the woods. Again sorry for venting guys. Also I worked 102 hours in 5 days getting 2 hours sleep a night for a big job we had. They took 26% taxes out a little over $500 from my check. I have no problem paying taxes but it seems I pay and pay and never see any improvements in my community, state or anywhere. I wont derail my own thread. Just been a long week at work. At least I can go to my garage and appreciate my hard work in the MM and I have friends here to hang with. Hopefully things will get better for our country. I feel that education is the key, because these kids will be who carry our technology, military, medicine and so on into the future.

[Bluerauder]

Time to start thinking about how school districts that spend less money and get better educated kids accomplish this.

Starting with kids who are motivated to learn is probably at least part of the key. Students who appreciate the value of hard work and a solid education, generally do much better, grow up and get decent jobs and contribute to society. Kids who know that the government will step in and pay their way through the various "entitlement" programs, don't see the need to put forth the effort. The system in place is guaranteed to perpetuate the status quo and this is why entire segments of society are unable to climb out of their situation. And some politicians are perfectly happy with having them there so they can promise more "free money" in return for votes at relection time.

DC wanted to start a pilot program where they pay students $100 per month .... just to show up at school. Fortunately, it did not get enough support to pass.

[PonyUP]

Starting with kids who are motivated to learn is probably at least part of the key. Students who appreciate the value of hard work and a solid education, generally do much better, grow up and get decent jobs and contribute to society. Kids who know that the government will step in and pay their way through the various "entitlement" programs, don't see the need to put forth the effort. The system in place is guaranteed to perpetuate the status quo and this is why entire segments of society are unable to climb out of their situation. And some politicians are perfectly happy with having them there so they can promise more "free money" in return for votes at relection time.

DC wanted to start a pilot program where they pay students $100 per month .... just to show up at school. Fortunately, it did not get enough support to pass.

+ 1 on that. I love how we are pasting Democrats as the evil villian here for giving money to schools. At least some have noted that the real problem is how that money is being spent by the administrations, what is it they say about absolute power?

The bigger problem is the change in our kids. There is such a sense of entitlement among them about society owing them something. I see these kids graduate college with no real world experience, hell they have never even held a job, and expect to get paid six figures as if that college education automatically translates to a payday.

There is no sense from our youth today to earn their way and work for everything that they get, and that is very reflective in our education system. It's not a teacher problem (sure there are lousy teachers, but most are solid). You can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink. Until our youth changes their attitude that they are owed something, it doesn't matter how much funding they are given.

I'll relate this to sports. Ryan Leaf was one of the most talented Quarterbacks coming out of college, but his terrible attitude, $.05 head, and lack of willingness to work made him a complete bust. Peyton Manning, from a shear talent standpoint, did not have the tools that Ryan Leaf had. But he was smart, worked hard to learn everything he could, and is now one of the best Quarterbacks in the league.

Until our kids are willing to work hard for their lives and refuse to settle for mediocrity, there will be no change. The youth of today, need more rules, more structure, and more involved parents. We can't raise our kids on the Disney channel and them observing Mommy and Daddy bitching at everything until they get their way. Attitude is the problem of our educational system.

[sailsmen]

30 years ago our Gov't set out to provide 2 Noble Goals. Who ever wanted a house gets to buy one and who ever wants to go to College gets too.
Both increased at double the inflation rate by artificially increasing demand, a/k/a as a "Bubble".
The housing market burst and the College market is about to. A local College we used to joke about is $42,500 per year for tuition, room and board! People are graduating from College owing $150K to $250K with a 50% unemployment rate amoung those under 25.
WE HAVE SOWED THE SEEDS OF REVOLOUTION AND WE SHALL REAP WHAT WE HAVE SOWED.
Look at the recent events by "youths" around the Country. They are just taking what is owed them, no more or less!

[duhtroll]

I think Iowa has fallen back to lower average teachers salary, after having "risen" to 26th two years ago (average in the US). I think they are somewhere in the 30s again now.

There is also much less wasteful spending in Iowa, and a much stronger teachers' union than in many places.

Chew on that one for a bit. :cool4:

(Not to Mr. Man) All you anti-union guys don't realize that the unions call out unnecessary spending at the administrative level, too. This belief that unions add costs to a district just by existing uses a few examples for justification and then people try to paint all unions as bad.

Well, they aren't. I'd warrant that at least around here they *save* taxpayers money.


Iowa was ranked 27th in spending per pupil and Iowans are consistently rated as some of the most educated people in the U.S.A.. Just goes to show that spending a crap load of money on schools doesn't equate to an educated school population. Time to start thinking about how school districts that spend less money and get better educated kids accomplish this.

I think Joe Clark was on the right track in Patterson NJ many years ago but he stepped on to many toes and B of E ousted him. To bad because Patterson schools were really starting to improve, now they are back into the worst performing districts in NJ again. I feel bad for the kids that want to learn.

[duhtroll]

Blue, there seem to be some misconceptions in your post below.

Kids are kids. They aren't any different than any other kids, for the most part.

What differs, however, is their family life. Our kids in here in IA aren't "motivated to learn" any more than any other children are. We have a higher ratio of parents who give a crap. End of story.

That is not to say we don't have a fair share of dunderheads who blame the school for everything, while junior has an iphone at age 9 yet mommy and daddy both can't come to conferences.

We also have a pretty high number of kids on free and reduced lunch programs -- those "entitled" kids you mentioned.

Our class sizes are smaller and our teachers talk to the parents. It is pretty simple. When you can reach the parents (and they aren't total wingnuts), kids succeed.

Smaller class sizes = "throwing money at the problem" as some have stated. It means we have more teachers/students so we can serve the students better.

One difference between our schools and large urban areas? We don't have to spend money on drug dogs, security guards (for the most part) and metal detectors as well as 3 liaison officers (truancy and discipline) per building.

The difference is in family life, y'all.


Starting with kids who are motivated to learn is probably at least part of the key. Students who appreciate the value of hard work and a solid education, generally do much better, grow up and get decent jobs and contribute to society. Kids who know that the government will step in and pay their way through the various "entitlement" programs, don't see the need to put forth the effort. The system in place is guaranteed to perpetuate the status quo and this is why entire segments of society are unable to climb out of their situation. And some politicians are perfectly happy with having them there so they can promise more "free money" in return for votes at relection time.

DC wanted to start a pilot program where they pay students $100 per month .... just to show up at school. Fortunately, it did not get enough support to pass.

[RF Overlord]

I agree w/duhtroll.

My father was a teacher, and my B-I-L is one now. Things have changed so much in that one generation that my father would roll over in his grave if he knew what goes on. It is impossible to discipline a child in any way now without the parents threatening to sue for violation of the kid's "rights" or because how DARE the school try to tell ME that MY kid is at fault in some way...

[Mr. Man]

I agree w/duhtroll.

My father was a teacher, and my B-I-L is one now. Things have changed so much in that one generation that my father would roll over in his grave if he knew what goes on. It is impossible to discipline a child in any way now without the parents threatening to sue for violation of the kid's "rights" or because how DARE the school try to tell ME that MY kid is at fault in some way...
Damn ,bra burnin, pot smokin, draft card dodgin' hippie punks!!:D

[duhtroll]

WTF is wrong with not wearing bras?

I urge all women to give them up.

Well, most.


Damn ,bra burnin, pot smokin, draft card dodgin' hippie punks!!:D

[jsignorelli]

Let me weigh in as I'm both a teacher and a Dept Chair. We often don't have Xerox paper to run off materials for the class. We are told to put everything "On-Line" for the students. This doesn't work very well when some of your students don't have:
A) a computer
B) internet service at home.

Our wondeful governor (Chris Christie) uses the State Police helicopter to go to his son's baseball games, but then cuts the school budgets statewide. New Jersey, the Garden State!

[PonyUP]

Our wondeful governor (Chris Christie) uses the State Police helicopter to go to his son's baseball games, but then cuts the school budgets statewide. New Jersey, the Garden State!

Look at the Bright side, with New Jersey being the Garden State, the future should have plenty of gardners :lol:

[Bluerauder]

And I agree with RF Overlord, too !!


Blue, there seem to be some misconceptions in your post below.

Kids are kids. They aren't any different than any other kids, for the most part.

What differs, however, is their family life. Our kids in here in IA aren't "motivated to learn" any more than any other children are. We have a higher ratio of parents who give a crap. End of story.

That is not to say we don't have a fair share of dunderheads who blame the school for everything, while junior has an iphone at age 9 yet mommy and daddy both can't come to conferences.

We also have a pretty high number of kids on free and reduced lunch programs -- those "entitled" kids you mentioned.

Our class sizes are smaller and our teachers talk to the parents. It is pretty simple. When you can reach the parents (and they aren't total wingnuts), kids succeed.

Smaller class sizes = "throwing money at the problem" as some have stated. It means we have more teachers/students so we can serve the students better.

One difference between our schools and large urban areas? We don't have to spend money on drug dogs, security guards (for the most part) and metal detectors as well as 3 liaison officers (truancy and discipline) per building.

The difference is in family life, y'all.

[Bluerauder]

And I agree with RF Overlord, too !!


Blue, there seem to be some misconceptions in your post below.

Could be; but I think that we agree on all the major points.

Kids are kids. They aren't any different than any other kids, for the most part.

This is certainly true; but the everyday environment at home, on the street and in the school does make a difference.

What differs, however, is their family life. Our kids in here in IA aren't "motivated to learn" any more than any other children are. We have a higher ratio of parents who give a crap.

No argument from me here.

That is not to say we don't have a fair share of dunderheads who blame the school for everything.

I don't think this trend is strictly related to school; but really extends to every area of life. It is easier to blame someone else, anything else rather than accept personal responsibility.

We also have a pretty high number of kids on free and reduced lunch programs -- those "entitled" kids you mentioned.

Funny that you mention this particular program because it wasn't one that I was thinking of. I was more thinking about Welfare, TANF, AFDC, SSI, Section 8 Housing Vouchers, WIC, Food Stamps, Medicaid, etc.

I don't think that I understand the qualifications for the "Free and Reduced Lunch" program. My daughter teaches 3rd grade in a county whose median income is over $90K. Her school boundaries encompass an area where $350K-$450K homes are commonplace. However, she says that 40% of the kids are on the Free and Reduced Lunch program. This doesn't add up to me. Something is very out-of-whack. There are two explanations IMHO. First, is that folks on the lower end of the income scale are putting 4-times as many kids into the school system. Second, there are a heck of alot of people in that area living in homes that they can't afford without taking food off the table. Maybe a combination of both. A third explanation is that the criteria for entry into the program may be rather lax.

Our class sizes are smaller and our teachers talk to the parents. It is pretty simple. When you can reach the parents (and they aren't total wingnuts), kids succeed.

There is no actual correlation between smaller class size and performance. Results are all over the board. With class sizes of 30 performing well and those of 20 or less performing poorly. Above 35 or 40 there may be a point. Below 20 provides no value added except in special cases like Special Education or ESOL where smaller groups place less demands on teachers.

Smaller class sizes = "throwing money at the problem" as some have stated. It means we have more teachers/students so we can serve the students better.

This seems intuitive; but studies show that the above is not necessarily true within the 20-30 student range. It probably depends more on the specific teacher's ability than the actual number of students.


One difference between our schools and large urban areas? We don't have to spend money on drug dogs, security guards (for the most part) and metal detectors as well as 3 liaison officers (truancy and discipline) per building.

Probably an accurate statement in some school districts. However, I suspect that those costs are pretty minor in comparison to paying 4,000 teachers, 1,000 ESOL & Special Ed teachers, 4,000 admin support, 800 bus drivers and 200 cafeteria people. Those costs typically add up to 80% of the entire school budget. Another 15% goes to school infrastructure/buildings/utilities and the last 5% goes to Other/Miscellaneous.

The difference is in family life, y'all.

Family life, environment, and expectations.

[duhtroll]

Well, a couple things came to mind.

First, the free and reduced program is defined primarily by income, and median income doesn't mean much. If the MEAN income is high, that could be significant.

Second, the results of which you speak don't take into consideration income levels when making the comparison. Income level is #1 as a determining factor of success, all else being equal. Ethnicity (which is also related to income level) and class size follow. But if you take income and ethnicity out of the equation -- two things largely beyond control, class size matters.

And as an addendum to that point, smaller class sizes as I refer to it means in that 20-30 range. Once you get above that you are asking for something that very few people can supervise, much less teach.

Third, when it comes to discipline, once you add in attorney's fees and court costs (which is why they need metal detectors and liaisons in the first place), the costs can be significant.

I would caution against lumping all school costs into one number as all of those expenses are paid differently and have different sources of revenue (though from a taxpayer perspective they ultimately are mostly paid for by Joe Public). There are different funds for buildings and special ed., general funds (which pay regular salaries), administrative or management funds, etc.

But you're right, we agree on most things.


And I agree with RF Overlord, too !!

[Bluerauder]

First, the free and reduced program is defined primarily by income, and median income doesn't mean much. If the MEAN income is high, that could be significant.

I think the above ^^^^^ statement is reversed. Median Income is a better indicator in this case. It is the point at which 1/2 are above $90K and 1/2 are below. On a typical Gaussian distribution 40% would be in the $75-80K or below range. Only approximately 10-15% would be below the poverty level. At what point do you qualify for the Reduce Lunch program? It would appear that 10-15% of the population is providing 40% of the qualifying students. Please set me straight on this. I am pretty sure that folks making $75-80K do not qualify for the program. Otherwise, all the teachers, police and firemen in this county should be getting free lunches too.

BTW -- the most recent county survey of resident satisfaction shows an income ditribution that is pretty close to a Gaussian "Bell" curve.

15% > $150K
85% < $150K
62% < $100K
42% < $75K (just about what I estimated)
24% < $50K
13% < $35K
2% < $15K

The "Mean" or statistical average is generally meaningless. The average depth of the Chesapeake Bay is only 5 feet. However, I wouldn't recommend trying to walk across it.

[Vortex]

One way to cut education costs is to take a look at the school districts themselves. I have never heard an answer worth a d**n to explain why every little suburb needs its own school district with separate administrations. You know how many school districts are in the State of Hawaii? One. Thats the way to do it.

[LIGHTNIN1]

The school districts are a big issue. Case in point, Oklahoma, with total state population of 3 million and with 532 school districts, how can that be? The link below is informative on how so much money is wasted and these salary figures here are large as money here goes a lot further than say New York or California.On top of the superintendants of education are large office buildings of people that could be eliminated. Professional coffee drinkers.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=19&articleid=20100125_19_a1_maryw e745039

[Kodimar]

Let me weigh in as I'm both a teacher and a Dept Chair. We often don't have Xerox paper to run off materials for the class. We are told to put everything "On-Line" for the students. This doesn't work very well when some of your students don't have:
A) a computer
B) internet service at home.

Our wondeful governor (Chris Christie) uses the State Police helicopter to go to his son's baseball games, but then cuts the school budgets statewide. New Jersey, the Garden State!

He also ended up paying for it out of pocket.

[Bluerauder]

One way to cut education costs is to take a look at the school districts themselves.

+1 I agree. And also cut the size of the school distract staff while you are at it.

To begin with I just want to go on record that I am a big supporter of education and education programs. However, what I tend to see in practice is a bureaucracy that cries "Support the Children" but diverts funding away from teachers and classrooms into a job programs for administrative and education support professionals (ESP). Everyone from the bus drivers, cafeteria workers, janitors and front office secretaries is an ESP. The Virginia Education Association (VEA) seems to place more emphasis on salaries and bennies for ESPs than on the teaching staff that directly impacts their kids education.

Here in my county, the following statistics are provided:

1. PWCS is one of the largest school systems in Virginia (2nd or 3rd, I believe)
2. The system supports 80,000 students.
3. The system has 10,000 employees (1 per 8 students)
4. There are 3,500 classroom teachers (1 per 22.8 students)
5. There are 1,200 Special Ed and ESOL teachers (1 per 66.7 students)
6. Combining regular and special teachers is 4,700 (1 per 17 students).
7. The remaining 5,300 employees are admin, G&A and Overhead (53%)
8. No business could ever operate with a G&A/Overhead burden of 53%. @25% would be considered excessive. 50% is ridiculous.
9. Employee salaries and benefits comprise 80% of the total school budget.
10. The ONLY way to reduce costs is to cut jobs and I certainly do not mean cutting teachers. The bureaucracy needs to find a way to get by with less administration, less Deputy Assistant Under Superintendents, Associate Assistant Vice Principals, and secretaries out the gazzoo.

I think that a 47% teacher to 53% admin ratio is way out-of-whack. Hire more teachers, give them a pay raise, reduce class sizes, support the kids.

If this is really a jobs program, just say so and STOP trying to blow sunshine up my azz by saying more money will improve education when we all know it will hire more admin staff, pave pizzy parking lots, add more computers to empty classrooms, and erect high price signs that no one wanted in the first place.

If the above ^^^^^ is not enough to convince you of the problem, consider this ....

1. Cost per pupil operating budget is $12,000 per student. Total of $960 Million.
2. 80% of that is salaries and benefits or $768 Million.
3. Starting teacher salary is $47K (with about $15K in bennies = $62K combined)
4. Senior teacher salary is $ $60K ( with about $20K in bennies = $80K combined)
5. Average teacher salary estimated at $54K (with $$18K bennies = $72K combined)
6. 4700 teachers @ $72K is $338.4 Million
7. This leaves $429.6 Million for 5,300 admins/overhead
8. So, the average admin total is $81K (breaks out to $61K salary and $20K in benefits).
9. Sure shows that the admin staff is much better paid than the average teacher.
10. Does this really show that we truly value education. I don't think so.

[duhtroll]

I don't see how a median makes a better comparison than the mean in this case. Median is just the middle number. Those in the bottom half, as you say, could be WELL below since the median merely indicates population numbers above and below, not their income levels. Sure, the median could be $90K, but those below it could be making $30K too, whereas if you have a high mean income level, it generally means more people are making more money.

A median is also more skewed by the one guy making $32 million a year, since he just set the maximum on the scale. A mean is affected less so by that same guy. The bottom of the scale can't stretch the median because zero is zero (for the homeless population).

Sure *in your county* you have a distribution that fits a curve, but that is only one example. Poverty doesn't work like that in many areas. There are places where there is a larger disparity between income levels of families at a particular school -- most rural schools, for example. In my area we have some of the richest farm soil in the world and therefore some very wealthy farmers, but we also have lots of people who see less than $30K per year (family).

Also, where did you get the 40% figure? I would be asking my local school board member that question and finding out what the calculations are for the FR program.

Secondly, are you aware that in most suburban areas having a family with an income of $75K and four kids is by no means wealthy? Today that is arguably lower middle class. We have only one child and an income level of approximately that, and our cost of living here in IA is MUCH cheaper than many areas, so I speak from experience.

Third - How do you know the average teaching salary is $75-80K? I am going to guess that if the average is that high, you have an older, more experienced staff. What is the starting teaching salary in your area? While you are on the phone with your school board member, ask them for a copy of the salary schedule. It is public info.

Also, the average depth of the Chesapeake Bay is 46 feet, not 5. Granted, I took that from Wiki, but still... :D

>>Average depth of the bay is 46 feet (14 m) and the maximum depth is 208 feet (63 m).<<

Therefore the mean is 46 while the median is 104. Big difference.


I think the above ^^^^^ statement is reversed. Median Income is a better indicator in this case. It is the point at which 1/2 are above $90K and 1/2 are below. On a typical Gaussian distribution 40% would be in the $75-80K or below range. Only approximately 10-15% would be below the poverty level. At what point do you qualify for the Reduce Lunch program? It would appear that 10-15% of the population is providing 40% of the qualifying students. Please set me straight on this. I am pretty sure that folks making $75-80K do not qualify for the program. Otherwise, all the teachers, police and firemen in this county should be getting free lunches too.

BTW -- the most recent county survey of resident satisfaction shows an income ditribution that is pretty close to a Gaussian "Bell" curve.

15% > $150K
85% < $150K
62% < $100K
42% < $75K (just about what I estimated)
24% < $50K
13% < $35K
2% < $15K

The "Mean" or statistical average is generally meaningless. The average depth of the Chesapeake Bay is only 5 feet. However, I wouldn't recommend trying to walk across it.

[Bluerauder]

Also, the average depth of the Chesapeake Bay is 46 feet, not 5. Granted, I took that from Wiki, but still... :D

>>Average depth of the bay is 46 feet (14 m) and the maximum depth is 208 feet (63 m).<<

Therefore the mean is 46 while the median is 104. Big difference.

Guess we are both wrong. My memory from the Corps of Engineers hydraulic Chesapeake Scale Model at Matapeake, MD back in 1982 must be fading.

According to the Maryland Department of Natural Resources, the average depth of the bay, including tributaries is 21 feet. Deepest part of the bay is 174 feet at Bloody Point just south of Kent Island.

Maryland DNR site >>>> http://www.dnr.state.md.us/mydnr/askanexpert/bay_deepest_part.asp

[duhtroll]

To begin with I just want to go on record that I am a big supporter of education and education programs. However, what I tend to see in practice is a bureaucracy that cries "Support the Children" but diverts funding away from teachers and classrooms into a job programs for administrative and education support professionals (ESP). Everyone from the bus drivers, cafeteria workers, janitors and front office secretaries is an ESP. The Virginia Education Association (VEA) seems to place more emphasis on salaries and bennies for ESPs than on the teaching staff that directly impacts their kids education.

1) If you think that the ESP staff does not affect your child's education in a very direct way, you are mistaken. Yes, even the janitors. Also, TAs are on that ESP list, you neglected to mention.

2) I find it very difficult to believe the VEA supports ESPs over teachers. Is that fact or opinion? Also, if Virginia is like most other states, the VEA has nothing to do with administrative salaries and they (admin.) can set their own salaries with approval by the school board. Most EAs do not have any power over or input on administrative pay levels.

Now, it could be that in VA like here and in many other places, there has been a push to increase ESP salary levels because in lots of places, IA included, their salaries classify them as poverty level. Most of our ESPs have at least 2 if not 3 jobs. Focus on increasing ESP salaries might seem like they are ignoring teachers, but I doubt it since teachers make up the vast majority of their membership.


Here in my county, the following statistics are provided:

1. PWCS is one of the largest school systems in Virginia (2nd or 3rd, I believe)
2. The system supports 80,000 students.
3. The system has 10,000 employees (1 per 8 students)
4. There are 3,500 classroom teachers (1 per 22.8 students)
5. There are 1,200 Special Ed and ESOL teachers (1 per 66.7 students)
6. Combining regular and special teachers is 4,700 (1 per 17 students).
7. The remaining 5,300 employees are admin, G&A and Overhead (53%)
8. No business could ever operate with a G&A/Overhead burden of 53%. @25% would be considered excessive. 50% is ridiculous.
9. Employee salaries and benefits comprise 80% of the total school budget.
10. The ONLY way to reduce costs is to cut jobs and I certainly do not mean cutting teachers. The bureaucracy needs to find a way to get by with less administration, less Deputy Assistant Under Superintendents, Associate Assistant Vice Principals, and secretaries out the gazzoo.

I think that a 47% teacher to 53% admin ratio is way out-of-whack. Hire more teachers, give them a pay raise, reduce class sizes, support the kids.

If the above ^^^^^ is not enough to convince you of the problem, consider this ....

1. Cost per pupil operating budget is $12,000 per student. Total of $960 Million.
2. 80% of that is salaries and benefits or $768 Million.
3. Starting teacher salary is $47K (with about $15K in bennies = $62K combined)
4. Senior teacher salary is $ $60K ( with about $20K in bennies = $80K combined)
5. Average teacher salary estimated at $54K (with $$18K bennies = $72K combined)
6. 4700 teachers @ $72K is $338.4 Million
7. This leaves $429.6 Million for 5,300 admins/overhead
8. So, the average admin total is $81K (breaks out to $61K salary and $20K in benefits).
9. Sure shows that the admin staff is much better paid than the average teacher.
10. Does this really show that we truly value education. I don't think so.

We are in agreement that administrative cuts are a way that most districts are bloated, but 53% in your list are not administrative. They include administration, but I would be asking for what the total # of admin. are.

Every person who does anything for a district is likely being listed as an employee. How many buildings are being maintained and what do you think the custodial staff is for that? How about the grounds around them? Heating/cooling, tech staff, plumbing, transportation (and maintenance of those vehicles), etc..

Every contracted job is likely included, I'll bet. School maintenance staff only do the smaller jobs for the most part.

I still think 53% is a bit high, but depending on the needs it is not a shocking number considering everything that goes into running a district of such a large size. I am certain there are things I am leaving out and I have been studying school finance for the last 8-10 years or so.

Also, thanks for posting the starting salary. I don't understand why you and others list benefits of teachers and assign them a value. People in other industries (at least that I know) don't list benefits as part of their salaries, so why do it to teachers? Also, retirement programs fluctuate in value every year so an estimate of actual benefit to each teacher is just that.

Here's why many do it -- to make it seem like teachers make more than they actually do.

I'm also going to point out that a max salary of $60K and even including benefits of $20K (which is again, misplaced) is far from affluent -- that is not directed at Blue, but to all those who think teachers are draining this nation's wealth. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: $60K for (likely) a Master's degree and many hours beyond that plus at least 20 years of experience? If it is the "senior" teaching salary I bet it is over 30 years of experience, not 20.

[duhtroll]

It also says on your site "most of the bay measures less than 6 feet deep!"

See why median is the less valuable number?

Converting feet to dollars (thousands)...

Most of the people could be making $6K if the mean is $21K and the maximum is $174K.

The median would be $87K in that case.


Guess we are both wrong. My memory from the Corps of Engineers hydraulic Chesapeake Scale Model at Matapeake, MD back in 1982 must be fading.

According to the Maryland Department of Natural Resources, the average depth of the bay, including tributaries is 21 feet. Deepest part of the bay is 174 feet at Bloody Point just south of Kent Island.

Maryland DNR site >>>> http://www.dnr.state.md.us/mydnr/askanexpert/bay_deepest_part.asp

[sailsmen]

+1 I agree. And also cut the size of the school distract staff while you are at it.

To begin with I just want to go on record that I am a big supporter of education and education programs. However, what I tend to see in practice is a bureaucracy that cries "Support the Children" but diverts funding away from teachers and classrooms into a job programs for administrative and education support professionals (ESP). Everyone from the bus drivers, cafeteria workers, janitors and front office secretaries is an ESP. The Virginia Education Association (VEA) seems to place more emphasis on salaries and bennies for ESPs than on the teaching staff that directly impacts their kids education.

Here in my county, the following statistics are provided:

1. PWCS is one of the largest school systems in Virginia (2nd or 3rd, I believe)
2. The system supports 80,000 students.
3. The system has 10,000 employees (1 per 8 students)
4. There are 3,500 classroom teachers (1 per 22.8 students)
5. There are 1,200 Special Ed and ESOL teachers (1 per 66.7 students)
6. Combining regular and special teachers is 4,700 (1 per 17 students).
7. The remaining 5,300 employees are admin, G&A and Overhead (53%)
8. No business could ever operate with a G&A/Overhead burden of 53%. @25% would be considered excessive. 50% is ridiculous.
9. Employee salaries and benefits comprise 80% of the total school budget.
10. The ONLY way to reduce costs is to cut jobs and I certainly do not mean cutting teachers. The bureaucracy needs to find a way to get by with less administration, less Deputy Assistant Under Superintendents, Associate Assistant Vice Principals, and secretaries out the gazzoo.

I think that a 47% teacher to 53% admin ratio is way out-of-whack. Hire more teachers, give them a pay raise, reduce class sizes, support the kids.

If this is really a jobs program, just say so and STOP trying to blow sunshine up my azz by saying more money will improve education when we all know it will hire more admin staff, pave pizzy parking lots, add more computers to empty classrooms, and erect high price signs that no one wanted in the first place.

If the above ^^^^^ is not enough to convince you of the problem, consider this ....

1. Cost per pupil operating budget is $12,000 per student. Total of $960 Million.
2. 80% of that is salaries and benefits or $768 Million.
3. Starting teacher salary is $47K (with about $15K in bennies = $62K combined)
4. Senior teacher salary is $ $60K ( with about $20K in bennies = $80K combined)
5. Average teacher salary estimated at $54K (with $$18K bennies = $72K combined)
6. 4700 teachers @ $72K is $338.4 Million
7. This leaves $429.6 Million for 5,300 admins/overhead
8. So, the average admin total is $81K (breaks out to $61K salary and $20K in benefits).
9. Sure shows that the admin staff is much better paid than the average teacher.
10. Does this really show that we truly value education. I don't think so.
Stop it, your focus is way off. It is not about educating children, it is about redistributing wealth to buy votes. 1 Gov't worker for every 6 Private sector workers and Gov't spending $40,250 per Private sector worker is the model to maintain/increase political power. Gov't best serves Gov't.
A few years ago when the FBI opened an office in the school district headquarters a private school system in our area agreed to educate all public school students for less than half the costs of the public schools. They were turned down.

[rayjay]

Bluerauder has hit the nail on the head, again. Many orginizations are too top heavy. Case in point. I'm retired from the New York State University Police Dept where I worked my way up to Captain from trainee, with two stints as acting Chief, with a AAS Degree in CJ, in my station. We had a total of eleven sworn personnel (includes the chief) to police a community of approx 4500. Out of the 11, four were supervisors. Why? Because my boss is a empire builder from a county wide agency that was much larger than ours, yet we were patterned after them. We had way too few indians to accomplish the job. The then Union did a investigation and discovered it was the same at all 28 campuses, way too heavy in management and cronchic shortages of street cops. Before you go off on what a university police dept is, you need to do some research. Things have vastly changed since I was hired. The majority of our, cough, alleged students came from less than desirable backgrounds, could barely read and write and were lied too about what social acitivites were available in a small rural, more cows than people, town/area. Our , "students" came from the finest sections of the Bronx, Brooklyn, Harlem and the south side of Syracuse. We routinely dealt with all the violent criminal street gangs you read about, including a smattering of MS13. We had two gang specialists in a 10 man dept just to deal with it. I was one of them. For all intents and purposes after 5:00pm we worked the ghetto. Problem is its a business 1st, college second or even third. I will say our college was run bare bones money wise, hence the reason I was so badly injured in Jan 2009. No ONE to maintain the roads/sidewalks from 3:30 pm until 5:00am the next day, in the snowbelt, but, they had supervisors in the maintence/grounds crews up the wazzu. The rate of bosses to workers was rediculous. When I retired there were seven (07) cleaners to maintain 75 buildings. -AND- they felt they could cut more ???? The same is true across the board there, what little money there is, spent inappropriately. Most of the teaching staff are adjuncts, not normal professors because it saves so much money. Too make things worse the administration turns a blind eye to all this and just says DO IT. With WHAT!!!!
Our then union went before a committee in the NYS Legislature and spelled out to them what SUNY is paying to manage 520 cops vs what the NYSP is playing to manage 5,000+ Troopers. The committee was floored, mouths agape, increduluous and didn't do one damn thing to rectify the situation. In fact it has since gotten worse. The polictcal types could care less how they spend your money. Anything they say to the contray is just lip service. Our membership and the the Members of our union have been without a contract since 2003, no raise since 2005 and that was a forced one. Mangement begets management no matter what level you are talking about. They protect their own 1st and always have. Don't take a look at teachers, cleaners, bus drivers. Take long hard look at whos running the business and make the appropriate cuts. The new sense of I got mines and screw you is very sad. I'm very afraid that if this country suffers a major disaster or attack it is for all intents and purposes finished. It will not survive. I knwo its way off topic, but if you don't have a plan and adequate supplies you and your family are DEAD. I strong urger everyone here to throw out any politcian oppposed to the 2nd amendment. It is our only hope. A strong well armed populace will NEVER be attacked conventionally. Our enemies know this and do not want to fight a house to house battle across the entire country.

Thank God I got out when I did at 34 years, or I'd be in a straight jacket by now.... :shake:

[Bluerauder]

Stop it, your focus is way off.

Yeah, you're right. I'll shut up now. Enough venting on this topic. :P

[sailsmen]

Thanks for the insight RayJay.

I don't know if it's good or bad but after Katrina several of the well known National Gangs tried to move in. They were all executed by the local gangs and gave up in less than 2 years.
Maybe the Devil you know is better than the Devil you don't know?