Shock Question & some Answers

[TAF]

I wanted to move this over here as well...in case some of you don't see it in the Kenny Brown Forum...


Originally posted by TAF
Mac...I'm going to give you a call today, when I get the chance (Tuesdays are still good, right?)

I had a long talk with someone in charge of Tech Services at Tokico yesterday. He was a great guy and he got on the board here with me while we were on the phone. BTW...he was SHOCKED (pun intended) to see this board, the level of interest and enthusiasm in this car and the depth of issues discussed here. I learned a couple of things from him in our hour+ conversation:

1) The OE shocks that were supplied by Tokico were made specifically for the Marauder, exclusively for Mercury.

2) Roughly...the cost on these to Mercury were about $9 each (not to make you feel TOO bad for the $70+ purchase you made recently)

3) The technology used in creating our OE shocks is right-on with their top-of-the-line products. In other words...we got good quality shocks OE.

4) When the Marauder is lowered (either via KB's "spring-snip" or via Eibach springs) it's actually a GOOD thing for our OE front shocks. Say for example, our OE "travel" on the stock shocks with the front at the stock height is 3". When we lower the front the 1.2" - 1.5" via spring change/cut...we actually cut the travel in half. However...this is good to much respect as this automatically "pre-loads" the shock for quicker performance in "spirited driving". (which you and I do) The gases are "pre-loaded" and compresses with the lowering which is actually (according to this Tokico shock expert) is an EXCELLENT thing for the performance minded.

5) The "life-expectancy" of our OE shocks are "25K-85K" according to this Tokico expert. I know...that's a BIG window...but that's what I was told. And keep in mind...OE shocks are NOT generally covered under warranty (whether you have lowered your car or not) they fall under "normaly wear & tear parts" like brakepads. AND...if we can identify an aftermarket shock from Tokico for our cars...they come with a LIFETIME Warranty whether you have lowered the car or not!!!

6) Tokico actually worked with Paul's Performance on their SEMA car that Dennis showed us pics of in THIS THREAD (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5992&highlight=sema) The guy at Tokico (I don't want to give his name...but he was going to sign on as a member here) said that through some research...they were able to supply Paul's with an "aftermarket shock" other than the OE design. This was not something they designed specifically for Paul's car...but...something that they had "off-the-shelf" that worked. He was going to take a look to see what Part# that ended up being and see if that is something that can work for us. I'll let everyone here know as soon as I know.

ALSO...

I did get a response back from Brad here via PM. KB has not gone much further with this than the statement above that I pulled from their website. They have contacted Koni & Bilstein but "their is nothing being developed for the Panther platform at this time."

Now...sorry to do this in KB's forum...because those guys have been great with me on all my purchases with them...and I understand "business partnerships"...but, apparently KB is "partnered" most specifically with Koni due to Tokico's "partnership" with Steeda. Just wanted to point that out as to why I am attempting to accomplish identification of an upgraded shock on my own.

I feel that once (and IF) an aftermarket shock is identified...it can help address 2 things:

1) making sure that those of us who have lowered frontends have the correct combination of shocks for the front assemblies to maximize handling performance.

and 2) to arrive at a frontend combination that will complement the lowering (either by KB's cut or Eibach springs) that will make the decision for those that have been on the fence with this mod, take the step to enjoy the improved handling that those of us that have already done this enjoy.

Although, I still want to state that the improved handling and firmness may not be to everyone's taste...I can tell you that right now, my car handles "small" like a 911 I used to drive and I could not be happier with the handling performance. The real reason for this search is to make sure we have the correct combination to maximize the performance of the shock portion of the suspension.

O.K. I'm done. I hope this was at least a little helpful to someone here.

[darebren]

after 2701 posts TAF, I'm surprised you can still come up with some informative news. Thanks!

[TAF]

Originally posted by darebren
after 2701 posts TAF, I'm surprised you can still come up with some informative news. Thanks!

I don't know whether to feel complimented.....or flamed:flamer:

[Warpath]

Originally posted by TAF
4) When the Marauder is lowered (either via KB's "spring-snip" or via Eibach springs) it's actually a GOOD thing for our OE front shocks.

Just keep in mind it may not be good for anything else such as other suspension components, frame, etc. Lower it could lead to higher loads into the suspension and frame. Things get worse when you add larger wheels and lower profile tires. The suspension is forced into absorbing the impact energy over a shorter distance. Think of it as an egg toss contest. The best way to keep from cracking the egg is to move your hands back while catching it and gradually slowing down the egg. Now, think about catching the egg without moving your hands. (Its lunch for me so I can only come up with food examples.) An lowered MM is likely sitting on the jounce bumpers.

[TAF]

Joe,

I agree and disagree. (but, I'm hungry as well...so I appreciate the analogy)

I agree with the fact that by lowering...the "geometry" of the front suspension has changed. That is the single reason for my inquirey and this thread. Would we be better served at an upgrade shock replacement rather than relying on the OE's which have been forced into an adjustment via the lowering to perform.

I disagree that there is any increased hitting stoppers/bumpers whatever. I know for a fact that this is not the case and that there are more "Pros" than "Cons" to the lowering. That is supported by my having the luxury of being around some of the top Ford Techs in the country here in Atlanta that look after my car and have been giving me quite an education...by Kenny Brown's "Builder Notes" posted on his site that I trust...and by the suspension expert at Tokico that I spoke with yesterday.

[SergntMac]

I have to say the the predicted life span of the OEM shock Tokico cites is a public relations reach. As heavy as this car is, and how we love to push them around, I'd say 25K is your max life span. Push beyond that, and you won't necessarilly notice the wear and tear. It's the loss of control in an emergency that will surprise you. Moreover, as shocks grow weaker, tires wear faster, I'm seeing this right now. So, decide what you want to spend your maintenence money on, tires or shocks when it's time? Or both once you have waited too long.

Whether lowering suspension is good, or, bad is not the nexus of argument here. All that is important, is if you like the ride. I believe the geometry is fine, once minor adjustments are considered. A bump steet kit from Baer may be in order, this is being looked at now. However, what's there is quite healthy with lower suspension. Kenny Brown has been a championship builder and driver for 30 years. My tutor, Mike Lopez, drives 200 miles an hour for a living. If they say it's good, it's good, yes?

I'm the only MM here with cut springs, because the Eibachs were not available when my MM was built. In comparasion to other KB MMs, my car sits lower that any of them, and you know something? I LOVE IT! this car is quite nimble for it's size, and I'd take on any Mustang in a closed course.

Yes, I have some alignment issues to work out, my front trires tell me so. Inside threads are down to the cord, and the outside threads are holding at 7/32. Not well balanced wear, I know, and on tires I cannot flip every once in a while too. Had I know the shocks were shot, I may have saved my tires, but I didn't know better. Now you do too. The Pirellis are not know for their longevity to begin with, but I'm not complaining. I've racked up some miles, and a lot of smiles, and I'll trade road holding grip at speed over mileage any day.

I've driven my MM all over the country this year, and through some azz kicking foul weather. I'm here typing this now because of my MMs ability to respond to control in dire situations, so, say what you want about lowering, I don't really care. It's safe, and it improves control.

Seems TAF and I conducted lateral investigations, and came to the same conclusions. However, I cannot stall repairs and updates waiting for Tokico, Koni, or any of them to step up for us. To them, it's a dead car in '04 and I doubt anything will come through. I have been in touch with QA 1, who will build a custom shock for my MM once I send them samples. My old shocks will be perfect, because they can judge wear and tear as well. I am sure the QA 1 shocks will be expensive, and why not. There's nothing else cheap about this car, is there? But, I will have adjustable shocks, adjustable for OTR, closed course, and drag racing. I would expect evicting compromise to cost.

TAF, I need only one front shock and one rear shock for QA 1, you're welcome to the other two for your guy at Tokico. Maybe if he had samples, he could find that alternate fit again. If you would like me to send them somewhere, e-me the mailing instructions?

last but not least, nice work Todd, thanks!

[kurly]

Great and informative thread!

[studio460]

GREAT POST, TAF!!! As soon as I can locate some Eibachs, I'm THERE (did that shipment EVER come in?)! Also, did anyone ever fine tune the front alignment specs for Eibach-lowered Marauders yet? What was the final verdict on that issue? Thanks for the terrific post, Todd--keep us posted on the Tokico part number used on the Paul's Performance car . . .

[TAF]

Originally posted by NBC Shooter
GREAT POST, TAF!!! As soon as I can locate some Eibachs, I'm THERE (did that shipment EVER come in?)! Also, did anyone ever fine tune the front alignment specs for Eibach-lowered Marauders yet? What was the final verdict on that issue? Thanks for the terrific post, Todd--keep us posted on the Tokico part number used on the Paul's Performance car . . .

Buy your Eibachs HERE (http://www.wholesalehyperformance.com/springs.html) I challenge you to find a better price than $132.30...

Best price and they have them. Alignment is done on mine...but, I still think there is some "customization" on the alignment (frankly even on stock Marauders...if you ask me)....I think hard-in-fact/set-in-stone alignment specs are still unknown at this point. My last alignment was more of a custom job with me sitting in the drivers seat.

[jgc61sr2002]

Todd - Great post very good information.:up:

[Warpath]

The point of my post is to inform everyone that there are drawbacks to lowering a vehicle. I cannot answer how vehicle handling under normal driving or panic situations is affected. You all would know better than me. But, as I stated before, I work for an auto supplier and have seen measured loads increase when vehicles are lowered. I cannot tell you how bad it could be on an MM since I don't have measured loads. It could be as simple as wearing out bushings, ball joints, shocks, etc. quicker. Or, it could be as bad as snapping a ball joint, tie rod, or control arm suddenly or cracking the frame. So, I cannot say whether it is safe to do so. That being said, I have lowered my Cobra (~1.75"). But, I know the consequences. I've read doing so will move the roll center out from between the tires to outside the tires causing the vehicle to lift when cornering under certain situations. Other Mustang owners have been lowering them for years and, so far, no widespread problems. You may find MMs to be the same. Only time will tell.

I also know a stock MM sits very close to the jounce bumper as it is. I'm pretty certain (without seeing it) that once lowered and with you in it, it sits on the jounce bumper.


Originally posted by SergntMac
... and I'd take on any Mustang in a closed course...

You're on - once I get new wheels.:P

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Warpath
You're on - once I get new wheels.:P

Cool!

[MAD-3R]

I would drive to see that...

[darebren]

I don't know whether to feel complimented.....or flamed


One of the good things about this site is that we rearely flame anybody, seems like we are all here for the same reasons, and now even some of us are starting to send parts to other for exchange (for free)...very good trusting people here IMHO.

it was just funny to me for a second to see you and some others with over 2700 posts, that's an average of over 7 a day for a year! I feel like i spit on alot of messages myself, but am barely breaking a few hundred posts...

[John F. Russo]

SergntMac and TAF


They have great guidance and knowledge.

I'll follow them anywhere!

_______________________
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Canadian) (reversed traction control,
mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer,clock-in-the-radio,
heated front seats, hood light)
-Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03
-16,000 miles
-18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph
-Stock transmission (upgraded with Performance Automatic
clutches and band after stock tranny failed in 8,800 miles)
-Wheel locks (Ford)
-Badgeless front grille by “Zack”
-Zaino waxing; RainX
Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion (450 hp) Born
3/28/03
-Dead pedal
-Baer front brakes 14 in. two piston, vented rotors
-MMX Driveshaft
-377 RWTQ
-4.10 gears
-Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3 Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3
-Vortech supercharger (5 and 9 psig boost)
-Ford Racing Stud and Girdle
-Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18 99Y;rear
255/50ZR18 102Y)
-FordChip
-One coil of each front stock spring removed to produce
the “same” effect as an Eibach spring
-Ground clearance: 5 in.
______________________________ ______________________
1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel (gone)

[TAF]

Originally posted by John F. Russo
SergntMac and TAF


They have great guidance and knowledge.

I'll follow them anywhere!

Thanks John!

Go tell the Okie and the guy in Naples wanting "fender skirts" that :D

[MM03MOK]

Originally posted by John F. Russo
I'll follow them anywhere! We'd better see you at Cleveland and Indy, then!! I'll get in trouble if I say anything else!